Behold The Pattern

What is the Church of Christ pattern???Randy has been asking for the particulars and parameters of this elusive pattern we hear so much about, but he has never yet actually had anyone provide it.

Randy tells me that he’s gotten emails stating there is a pattern, but nobody seems to want to share the specifics. We read that Jesus is our pattern and all in the church of Christ will agree, but most go beyond this -to a pattern of worship, with rules and laws that must be obeyed to remain in fellowship.

We aren’t suggesting worship be treated lightly, nor that “anything goes” in worship.  But, what we see is people making laws from examples, inferences, and their interpretations, binding them upon people to the point that the church of Christ is full of sects and division, and this pattern is never the same across the board.

More than likely, Johnny Robertson, Norm Fields and James Oldfield will maintain their boycott of our blog.  However, let’s see if any other Church of Christ folks will provide the particulars of this elusive pattern.

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143 thoughts on “Behold The Pattern

  1. There is no pattern….no one can point it out…it doesn’t exist … except in theory … and when convenient.

  2. They declare there is a list of specifics, but they refuse to declare what it is. I have ask the men here this question and they even have preached about the pattern, but never are there specifics. They know that once they provide a list–I can send their list to others who will find flaws with it…some say NO kitchens in the church building…oops, I mean meeting place. Some say YES, its ok. Each meeting place has its own set of rules-pattern. Sadly, they even disfellowship over these issues, saying the other is walking disorderly.

  3. Below is an email sent to me by Johnny, the leader of the three church of Christ men on TV–I think he is a bit mad about something. He keeps saying we arent affirming anything because he isnt use to this. He likes to be chasing, not chased or called out on his doctrine. Its a shame he cant come on here, but hide BEHIND THE WALLS and email me directly. All we are asking is for some polite conversation, I really aint into this name calling stuff, seems a bit childish to do that, but he can continue doing it, I really dont mind. I need a good laugh at times.

    From Johnny: the real test for you guys is to get someone to trot this dumb stuff out in person
    we get emails from all over the country and you giggleing little girls are much the same. Unl;ess you are willing to stand beside your doctrine (which you actually dont have a formal doctrine just a Bob Lawson type “I am against everything but cannot affirm any”) then dont flatter yourself thinking we are answering you on tv
    jphnny

  4. Do you believe there is no pattern, that we (the church) can do as we please, ie., worship, living, etc?

    Do you think there is no rule/law/standard/pattern (whatever you choose to call it)?

    Thanks…..Terry Finley

  5. Thats not what we are saying at all. Our pattern is Jesus Christ, not man-made laws that people create from an example or what they infer. Who gives man the right to bind his interpretations as law upon another man. For example: Some read Acts and from an example they conclude that everyone must take the Lords supper each Sunday. If one is serious about Acts account being their example, this excludes women, seeing it was only men there… and this means it should be at night in an upper room. Or Maybe we could follow another example that some done in the early church-sell everything you own and give it away. It’s strange people pick what example they like and then even do not follow it per the example. Sure one must do things in order, but one must not take examples and what he infers and bind that as law upon others. Since you suggest there is some pattern of rules-please provide us with this detailed list with specifics-that every single church of Christ abides by…trust me friend, you dont have such a list. Once you come up with your list, others in the church of Christ will have another list and not agree with your rule/law/standard/pattern.

  6. One does find a few things revealed to us in Scripture upon which all of us would agree that there must be agreement and conviction of faith …. and it does not even begin to take us the rest of our physical lives to try and come up with such a list of essentials to our unity and oneness. “He who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him” (Heb. 11:6). I would say that is at the top of the list of things we must believe, and upon which disciples who seek to be united as one must agree! After all, what unity or agreement or fellowship has Christ with Belial, or the temple of God with idols, or a believer with an unbeliever (2 Cor. 6:14-16)? I find it hard to have spiritual unity with an atheist. Thus, one thing essential to unity (and, yes, even to salvation) is a belief in God, and belief in the simple fact that by seeking Him and coming to Him one shall be rewarded. Now, there may be diversity of opinion as to the exact nature of God (we often differ over the meaning of such terms as omnipotent, omniscient, immortal, etc.), but there should be agreement that He IS. There may also be diversity of opinion and conviction as to the nature of eternal rewards and punishments, but there should be agreement that such will be. If one does not believe in God, or that God will call men to account, rewarding those who come to Him and punishing those who do not, then there is obviously no basis for us who are in Christ to have unity with such a person, for they deny our sovereign God.

    Second on “the list” would have to be a firm belief in Jesus Christ — His birth, death, burial and resurrection. These essentials of faith are laid out for us repeatedly in Scripture. Jesus, having come in the flesh, is said by the apostle John to be the emphasis of his teaching so that “you also may have fellowship with us” (1 John 1:1-3). Those “who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh” are deceivers and anti-Christ (2 John 7). Thus, I would say this is something upon which we must agree. Jesus IS, Jesus came. He was real. Those who don’t believe that can hardly be one with those who do. When the eunuch from Ethiopia asked what prevented him from being immersed, Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” The eunuch then declared, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God” (Acts 8:37). Paul wrote, “For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ” (1 Cor. 3:11). “For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified” (1 Cor. 2:2). We are told in Acts 17:18 that Paul went about “preaching Jesus and the resurrection.” “For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures” (1 Cor. 15:3-4). “If Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain … you are still in your sins” (1 Cor. 15:14,17). The book of Acts tells us clearly that the message of the church was Jesus (birth, death, burial and resurrection). There must be acceptance of these facts for there to be unity of believers. Those who deny these facts are not unified with those who affirm them. The Bible is very firm on this. Now, there may be great diversity in our understanding of some of the details of those facts, but the facts themselves should be undeniable truths for those in Christ.

    Someone once asked Jesus what the greatest commandments were. Jesus said all law was summed up in just two — love God and love one another. Paul emphasizes the same in Romans 13. Should there be agreement on this among believers in God and Christ? I believe there should be. There may be significant diversity on the particulars of how one demonstrates such love, but there must be agreement that one must show such love. After all, “we know we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death” (1 John 3:14). “The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love. … God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him” (1 John 4:8,16). I would say that makes this an essential, wouldn’t you?! All law can be summed up in the commands: “love God and love one another.” Those who agree with this biblical truth, and all those who seek to put it into daily practice, are united with God, who is love, and united with one another in love. “Put on love, which is the perfect bond of unity” (Col. 3:14).

    Faith/belief in God and Jesus, and demonstrated love, are essential to our oneness (indeed, to our very salvation). When we accept our Lord Jesus Christ in simple, trusting, active, demonstrated faith, we are joined in relationship with Him, and by that union are thereby united with all others who have done the same. Christian unity is based on union with Christ! Those who are “in Christ” are united, regardless of the degree of agreement they may have with one another on thousands of peripheral matters of perception or practice. Our continuing challenge is to learn to accept one another, as the Lord Jesus has accepted us (Rom. 15:7), rather than seeking to compel one another to agree with the preferred particulars of some rigid religious perception. Promoting the latter merely leads, at best, to a forced uniformity (or, at worst, to division); promoting Jesus promotes true Christian unity, for it is only in Him that we are brought together as one!

    I mentioned that if we hope to be united with Christ, and, by virtue of that union, united with one another, there must be an active, demonstrated faith. After all, James makes it very clear in his epistle (James 2) that an undemonstrated faith is “dead” and will save no one! It is hard for the saved to be united as one with the unsaved. Thus, an evidenced faith is essential. The question, of course, is — what evidence of this faith does the Lord expect? Has He been specific in His inspired Word with regard to the desired particulars of this visible demonstration of faith? The answer is Yes, He has, and, again, “the list” is not long. No man should ever fear giving the particulars of that evidenced faith. We must:

    Repent. Turn from a life lived apart from relationship with God, and turn to a life lived in blessed union with Him through His Son. When the Jews at Pentecost asked Peter what they must do, he simply said, “Repent, and let each of you be baptized!” (Acts 2:38). “God is now declaring to men that all everywhere should repent” (Acts 17:30). Sounds like an “item on the list” to me! If we would be in relationship with deity, then we must turn away from a relationship with the world. “Do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God” (James 4:4). Repent! Turn away from friendship with the world; turn toward your God. Such turning to Light leads to union with Him, and such union establishes a state of unity with all others who do the same.

    Confess. We must acknowledge Jesus … not only with our lips, but, even more importantly, with our lives by daily walking with Him in the light where He abides, letting our light shine before others as a lamp set upon a hill. “Many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God” (John 12:42-43). Were these timid, intimidated rulers approved by our God? No. Why? Because they refused to evidence their faith in a visible public confession or acknowledgement of Jesus! “If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation” (Rom. 10:9-10).

    Be Immersed. Again, this command was given by Peter to those on the day of Pentecost who inquired as to what they must do. They apparently took him at his word, for “those who had received his word were baptized; and there were added that day about 3000 souls” (Acts 2:41). They were added to the Lord; union with Him. The result was they were also united with one another. Christian UNITY is by virtue of UNION with Christ Jesus. And this comes as a result of demonstrated faith. Immersion is a demonstration of that faith, as are repentance and confession; a demonstration required by our Lord Himself. Even after Cornelius and his household had received the pouring out of the Holy Spirit upon them, as the Jews had at Pentecost, Peter still “ordered them to be baptized” (Acts 10:48). Demonstrating one’s faith is demanded by our God; immersion is one such visible evidence required of those who believe the gospel message, and is thus essential to our union with Him and unity with one another. It is not a work, however; merely an evidence of saving faith.
    “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, lest anyone should boast” (Eph. 2:8-9). God saves us by uniting us with His Son, and He then unites into one family all who are “in Christ Jesus.” We may disagree on a thousand and one points of interpretation and conviction, but that in no way affects our UNITY, for our unity is IN HIM, not in whether you or I agree on everything on every page of the Bible. If you are in Christ and I am in Christ, we are united. We have both been accepted by Him. Our challenge is now to accept one another to the glory of our one Father, and to gather together around His table in sweet fellowship.

    Brethren, “the list” is a short one! It doesn’t take the rest of one’s life to write it down. It is so simple that even a child could provide it to another. We must believe …. and demonstrate it. When that is done, we spend the rest of our lives in union with Him, united with one another, living daily in visible appreciation for our salvation through works of gratitude. There is no need to regulate these various works, for they are merely faith in action; the fruit of the indwelling Spirit in evidence. Worship is the outpouring of the devotion of our hearts; worship happens daily, and also needs no regulation under the new covenant (Heb. 9:10) …. worship only requires heartfelt demonstration! May God help us to forever abandon this foolish notion that unity and salvation are by virtue of agreement on points of legalistic legislation; legislated law so extensive that its proponents could not, by their own admission, list the specifics of it in a single lifetime. May we, instead, live lives of simple, trusting, active faith; looking to Him, in union with whom we are all united as one family.

    There you go.

  7. Hi Al.

    I wish more people would realize this so we could stop the fueding/fighting among ourselves.

    Randy

  8. Hi Al hope you brought your Kevlar vest! 😉 Welcome to the discussions.

    I have a totally opposite view of immersion, I see it as a practice that was done to allow the Jews to receive Christ in a way that would create continuity with the old ways of sin sacrifice. Thus washing or baptizing would be perfectly understandable to a practicing Jew. You have to be clean to touch the sin sacrifice. While I have been baptized fully immersed, at this point I would say that if I had to do it over it would be done to not create a stumbling block to others who believe that water actually holds power. The problem I have with the theology is that water in practice is raised to the level of God in that it can block the reception of the covering of the blood. Because the exceptions are ignored as signs or placed under the old covenant for convenience.

    I find it interesting that one defense offered for the thief being not of the new covenant and thus we could not receive salvation that way is that we are not on the cross with Jesus per Norm Fields argument. One could say that we are not a practicing Jew in front of Peter either!

    There are obvious examples of Peter’s bias towards other Jews in that Paul calls him down for ignoring the gentiles at one point, that the council made Paul go to the temple to disprove he was speaking against the law, even though he was in fact doing so. Those examples and the reaction those in the temple had in their attempt to have Paul killed speaks volumes towards this subject. Had Peter said, just believe the Jewish people there would have been totally disconnected by that process because it did not fit the pattern that they were used to! Many of them were trying to force circumcision on the gentiles because of that very pattern that they believed in.

    If you read my posts you will know I have issues with both Matthew 28:19 and the longer ending of Mark, both have baptism tied to them and both are in question as to authenticity and that they may have been added for various reasons, one of them being to combat the Gnostics view of God the father as evil while Baptizing in Jesus name at the same time. This is clearly what was done to Matthew 28:19!

    The gentiles were baptized to create unity with the Jewish believers. Cornelius was already marked with the seal of God’s Holy Spirit and thus was part of Christ’s body before being baptized! I would even argue that he was already saved because he already believed and had been talking to Jesus himself, the angel described in Acts 10 is called Lord in my translation or kurie in the greek the meaning of the word is:

    1) he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord
    1a) the possessor and disposer of a thing
    1a1) the owner; one who has control of the person, the master
    1a2) in the state: the sovereign, prince, chief, the Roman emperor
    1b) is a title of honour expressive of respect and reverence, with which servants greet their master
    1c) this title is given to: God, the Messiah

    Thus I conclude that Cornelius already had a relationship with Jesus, otherwise how could his prayers have been heard? The Holy Spirit was given after Peter spoke to them to shut the Jewish believers up and to protect Peter from being killed himself for breaking Jewish laws, after all Peter said “who am I to stand in the way of God” thus he leaves the blame at God’s door thus he is innocent of any wrong doing. The communication with the Angel never has salvation or saved in it, yet Peter restates it as so in Acts 11. Why, not because he was covering up, but because he believed the man to have been saved based on his bias of pattern. The pattern came by seeing Jesus baptized in water and then receive the Holy Spirit, and the examples of sin sacrifice in Leviticus. The Angel never told Cornelius he would be saved in Acts 10, only Peter said he was!

    Thus I see Acts as a struggle to break from the pattern of Jewish customs, having to walk carefully to avoid bringing down the wrath of the Jewish Pharisees.

    Now we struggle with the pattern that was formed from the struggle against the Jewish pattern. This would not be an issue except people have decided to declare everyone who does not fit the pattern as a false prophet or lost. I do not believe that is the correct pattern based on what a false teacher was really in the time of Acts.

    The Gnostics saw a pattern of difference between how God the father was in the Old Testament and how Jesus was in the Gospels and concluded that they were separate Gods with Jesus as the good God and God the father as the evil God. That was the false teachers they dealt with, and those looking to make money off of the religion.

    Anyway that’s my take on the matter of patterns! I do not condemn those who follow the pattern in Acts, but I will not allow anyone to condemn me for not doing so either. But if I visited your worship location I would conform to that practice thus giving up my rights to not create a stumbling block for you.

  9. When Heb. 13:20 speaks of the “blood of the eternal covenant” which was shed by our Lord Jesus, was the author speaking of these 27 books (several of which had yet to be written)?

    When Heb. 8:6 and 12:24 speak of Jesus being the “mediator of a new covenant,” a “better covenant,” was this again a reference to these 27 books?

  10. When God specifies, we must all obey. No argument there. When men speculate, we are under no such obligation. Much of what is imposed upon the church today as divine specification is nothing more than human speculation.

  11. Quotes from Al Maxey:
    “Just before stating that all Scripture is “God-breathed,” and that it is profitable for instruction and training, among other things, the apostle Paul made this statement regarding Timothy — “From childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus” [2 Tim. 3:15]. Yes, once again we perceive that the Scriptures (in this case the OT writings) were largely intended to be revelatory in nature, although we freely admit that under the Old Covenant there were indeed a great many more regulations (especially pertaining to the tabernacle/temple worship). These were imposed until a “time of reformation” [Heb. 9:10; cf. vs. 1], which time was ushered in with the coming of the New Covenant, and which Jesus said was even then on the scene [John 4:23-24]; a time when worship of the Father by His beloved children would be characterized less by regulation, and more by depth of spiritual relationship. Nevertheless, some today still perceive the New Covenant writings to be equally as much about LAW as those of the Old Covenant. Both, however, were designed to reveal relationship, not to regulate religion. Jesus rebuked the religionists of His day with these words: “You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; but it is these that bear witness of Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me that you may have life” [John 5:39-40]. I fear that people like Johnny are still searching the inspired Scriptures looking for patterns, and perhaps, in so doing, truly failing to perceive the real Pattern right before their eyes — JESUS. Rallying to a Person allows for unity in diversity; rallying to a position or pattern, however, demands uniformity of thought and practice, and I believe such a focus to be completely contrary to the spirit of biblical teaching, especially that of the New Covenant writings.”

    – My biggest fear is that these men ( our local church of Christ preachers on TV ) who seek and desire to follow their patterns of law have “fallen from Grace”.

  12. Corey, I think this post will be a good place to discuss some of the things we talked about yesterday, seeing it ties into pattern theology. If you don’t mind, I will just get to the point at hand. Do you consider “denominational people” to be your brothers/sisters in Christ? If not, please explain why God would reject someone for trusting in His Son. WIL and others, please interject if you like as I do not have much time to comment.

  13. Do you consider “denominational people” to be your brothers/sisters in Christ?

    That is a loaded question. Usually when people ask this it is an attempt to draw the battle lines and make a villain of the one answering if they say “no”, as I must. I stand by the assertion that the churches of Christ are the few who will be honest with the question. The Baptist who rejects modern-day miraculous gifts will still often refer to the Pentecostal as a brother/sister. They do this despite the fact they believe them to be falsely manufacturing those “gifts”. They essentially say, “sure, you’re my brother even though I know that you’re faking those tongues”. That seems dishonest and weak to me.

    If not, please explain why God would reject someone for trusting in His Son.

    Why would God reject the Samaritans as His people? They believed in Him and trusted in Him, but Jesus reminded the woman at the well that the Samaritans worshiped that which they didn’t know. He reminded her that salvation would come from the Jews.

    The fact is, the Samaritans only accepted PART of God’s word. They didn’t do ALL that He asked of them, and invented their own ways of worship and accepted only the books of Moses – ignoring the prophets and leaders who came after Moses.

    That is what I see in the world of denominations – they only accept verses that mention faith, yet refuse to accept those that mention baptism. They have invented their own ways of worship and expect God to like it.

    Jesus did not despise or turn away the Samaritans who came to Him, but He didn’t say that they were in a right relationship with God simply because they thought they were. They needed instruction. They needed to worship not only in spirit, but in truth.

    I do not despise people in denominations. I do not think they are all evil and willfully defying God. I do think that they are worthy of further instruction and I think that we need to destroy all teachings of men and to get back to God’s word as our only guide. I think that denominations should cease to exist and we should unite as one to change the world for good, with the Bible as our only guide to lead us.

    I truly believe the Hebrew writer who said that Jesus is able to help the ignorant. My question is what happens when the ignorant is satisfied with his ignorance? No one has ever told me what would have happened to the Ephesians of Acts 19 if they said, “that’s alright Paul, we don’t need to be baptized again. You don’t need to know everything about baptism for it to be valid”. What happens when people won’t even accept the elementary principles of God’s word, being content with their own beliefs and the faith of their forefathers?

    I ask you again – if I call a man my brother and I teach the full biblical plan of salvation and he stands up after me and teaches a false “faith only” plan of salvation, who should the lost believe? How are we to be united in Christ when he rejects the very thing the bible teaches that places us IN Christ (Galatians 3:27)?

  14. Corey, I wished I had time to address everything you brought up. I think there is good reason for the “re-baptism” you sited, and I will go into that at a later time. You ask “If you teach the biblical plan “as you understand it” and someone rejects it and teaches “faith only”…would they be saved”?? There are a few things I think we need to consider here – first, did they reject/deny Christ and His work? Did they repent, confess Christ and get baptized? Are there any examples of someone being baptized upon their faith in Christ and NOT added to the body? I do believe we are saved by grace through faith…a faith that is in Christ and in His work on the cross – and when one comes to God through this faith in Jesus Christ, they are added by God to the body at the point of baptism, even if they didn’t understand everything about baptism. We aren’t talking Johns baptism here, we aren’t living prior to the cross. We are talking about sinners today who hear about how sinful they are and how Jesus came to save them by dying in their place and raising to save them by His life. This is why the Ephesians were re-baptized. If I tell someone “inside of a Baptist church” about Jesus and tell them that Jesus came to save them by dying on a cross for their sin and He rose so that they might be saved by His life and this person repented, confessed, and were baptized….they are added by God to the body

  15. …they are added by God to the body at the point of baptism, even if they didn’t understand everything about baptism. We aren’t talking Johns baptism here, we aren’t living prior to the cross.

    You and your rules! Why is it that we need to understand what you wrote (regarding why John’s baptism is invalid), yet we don’t have to know that it is for the remission of sins and that it puts us into Christ?

    Do you honestly think the converts of the NT didn’t know those things? Of course they knew those things. The only reason people don’t know them today is because of years of the teachings of men clouding the word of God. Look at the lengths walkinlove is willing to go (calling Peter a liar) to cling to the teaching that baptism is not essential. This is the problem – that people are hearing a partial gospel and clinging to it even when you show them that there is more.

  16. “You and your rules! Why is it that we need to understand what you wrote (regarding why John’s baptism is invalid), yet we don’t have to know that it is for the remission of sins and that it puts us into Christ?”

    – Corey, I just happen to understand that to be Johns bapstim, others may not. I never said I was totally ignorant 🙂 Did they understand they were “put into Christ” in Acts 2:38? We understand this from latter writtings. Me and my rules – come on Corey, Im just trying to understand things more…we all are on diff levels of understanding – you know this. Some have no idea about them being rebaptized because they were only baptized of John…please dont try and paint me as something I am not. I do what many others will not – and thats admit I dont have all of the answers, not do I have the “pattern list” that so many claim to follow and not once has any church of Christ preacher wrote down such a pattern list, but thats another topic, for another day.

    When a sinner responds to the gospel and repents, should the motive to repent be faith in Jesus?

    When a sinner responds to the gospel and confesses Jesus Christ as Lord, should the motive to confess Christ be faith in Christ?

    When a sinner responds to the gospel and is baptized, should the motive to be baptized be faith in Christ?

    If someone is baptized with faith in Christ, will God add them to the body?

  17. “Look at the lengths walkinlove is willing to go (calling Peter a liar) to cling to the teaching that baptism is not essential. This is the problem – that people are hearing a partial gospel and clinging to it even when you show them that there is more”.

    – I agree Corey and maybe with more study he will reach my level of understanding, heck…maybe even yours. See, this is the attitude that turns them away…comments like I just made, as if you or I have all of the answers or am on some level they cant reach. I do think WIL is wrong on many levels, from my studying the bible…I bet he thinks the same about us too….maybe in time things will change. Got to run…ttyl

  18. “I am of Paul … I am of Cephas.” I am One Cup … I am Non-Institutional … I am Non-Instrumental … I am Non-Sunday School. Brethren…

    Where is “The Pattern”? Who has the pattern? What makes your pattern right and someone else’s pattern wrong? I have a challenge for Johnny, TD, Faithful, Shawn, or anyone holding to this “pattern theology”: Send me your pattern list as you understand the bible to teach the pattern. I will hold all pattern list until I receive at least replies from 10 people. How many pattern list do you think I will have; how many will be identical?
    When God has said nothing about something, should the pattern be determined by the assumptions and inferences of “fallible men and who gets to be lead-man and tell us all that we must follow what he has determined by his assumptions and inferences?

  19. On September 23, 2008 at 12:37 pm coreydavis Said:

    Do you consider “denominational people” to be your brothers/sisters in Christ?

    That is a loaded question. Usually when people ask this it is an attempt to draw the battle lines and make a villain of the one answering if they say “no”, as I must.

    It this the biblical equivalent of the argument that people are born a certain way. You have a choice and you picked, it was not a must! Breathing is a must, condemning others who see some scripture differently then you is a choice. Sorry Corey but you are not getting a pass with that, at least from me. Own your choice! To do less is a form of dishonesty is it not?

    I stand by the assertion that the churches of Christ are the few who will be honest with the question. The Baptist who rejects modern-day miraculous gifts will still often refer to the Pentecostal as a brother/sister. They do this despite the fact they believe them to be falsely manufacturing those “gifts”. They essentially say, “sure, you’re my brother even though I know that you’re faking those tongues”. That seems dishonest and weak to me.

    Perhaps they realize the danger of sowing and reaping unauthorized condemnation? Perhaps they should be warning against unauthorized gifts, at least those who are using the gifts will know that if they are faking them they are going to pay with their souls for it. As for the end of the gifts, where is the command written that says you can forbid Tongues in services? Using the passage where Paul talks about the perfect coming is weak also because if the perfect were here we would not be disagreeing because we would know in full! And we don’t!

    If not, please explain why God would reject someone for trusting in His Son.

    Why would God reject the Samaritans as His people? They believed in Him and trusted in Him, but Jesus reminded the woman at the well that the Samaritans worshiped that which they didn’t know. He reminded her that salvation would come from the Jews.

    The fact is, the Samaritans only accepted PART of God’s word. They didn’t do ALL that He asked of them, and invented their own ways of worship and accepted only the books of Moses – ignoring the prophets and leaders who came after Moses.

    And because of that they did not know God the son. I believe I read where they thought Moses would return, thus Jesus saying makes perfect sense. They did not know him, he declared it towards the end of the interchange with her.

    That is what I see in the world of denominations – they only accept verses that mention faith, yet refuse to accept those that mention baptism. They have invented their own ways of worship and expect God to like it.

    Or they focus on baptism, the actions of people and avoid anything to do with faith, of where the gifts come from but focus on the physical side of things. You focus on things just like any other group of people, if not then all the CoC would be walking in total and complete agreement on the word and you are not. Should you not be working on the log in your own body before declaring the speak in other bodies wrong? I have said this several times the word used for making melody or music in the heart was a word used for plucking a musical instrument! So while you ignore instruments in the old testament and in Heaven you have focused on the passages that frankly misuse the word that should go with instruments but was used for voice. Because you declare that all who do not do as you are going to hell for their actions because they do not follow scripture as you do, you leave yourselves open to destruction for hypocritical judgment. yet you do not see that because you are perfect in your following the law! Yet you do not give a Holy Kiss, you do not baptize for the dead, yet those things are written but you do not follow them. Thus you are partially following scripture yourselves while condemning all those who do not follow your example as unsaved. If I am right, what is your penalty for that judgment?

    Jesus did not despise or turn away the Samaritans who came to Him, but He didn’t say that they were in a right relationship with God simply because they thought they were. They needed instruction. They needed to worship not only in spirit, but in truth.

    Jesus was telling them they did not know about him! Thus they worshiped what they did not know!

    I do not despise people in denominations. I do not think they are all evil and willfully defying God. I do think that they are worthy of further instruction and I think that we need to destroy all teachings of men and to get back to God’s word as our only guide.

    I believe the further instructions run both ways sir, however the difference is those you might teach may listen, you however would not because you already know in full correct? Thus in your pride you make Paul a liar who only saw in part!

    I think that denominations should cease to exist and we should unite as one to change the world for good, with the Bible as our only guide to lead us.

    If there did two things would happen, your denomination would still be here, you would be fighting among yourselves in a Biblical Olympics to see who was the best at arguing. Secondly the ability to reach the real lost in the world would be gone because what I have seen from CoC preachers they have nothing to give in reaching the unbeliever. There only strength is to convert the already converted. Thus the church would die shortly after the removal of the other denominations except for the children of those who believed.

    I truly believe the Hebrew writer who said that Jesus is able to help the ignorant. My question is what happens when the ignorant is satisfied with his ignorance?

    Again why don’t you clean up the CoC ignorance first then work on the other denominations? Tell me for instance where is it written in scripture that you should take video recordings into a church and use them to draw negative attention to yourselves while disrespecting the Preacher in that church by laughing at him out loud? Shoe me the passage? IF not then please make your way to the Danville, Reidsville, and Martinsville CoC and start your de-ignorfying operations as soon as you wish!

    Or do you believe that it is scriptural to disrespect God’s authority?

    No one has ever told me what would have happened to the Ephesians of Acts 19 if they said, “that’s alright Paul, we don’t need to be baptized again.

    They would have been killed by the zealous Jewish believers at some point that is what would have happened.

    You don’t need to know everything about baptism for it to be valid”.

    Yes as long as the word sign can be used to label anything that goes against the process laid out in Acts 2:38 like Acts 10. Ignore it by casting it aside if you wish but it did happen and it was not salvation because the Angel did not say it was, only Paul did, thus I conclude that by reading the real text of what happened that Peter assumes they were saved, and that Cornelius received the Holy Spirit to keep both Peter and the gentiles alive. But because you follow the creed of baptism as the way the truth and the life, you can’t afford to consider it an exception. Thus you follow the Bible only in part by labeling the event a sign and ignoring what really happened!

    What happens when people won’t even accept the elementary principles of God’s word, being content with their own beliefs and the faith of their forefathers?

    I read it myself, I did not have someone guide me towards their beliefs, how did you come by the knowledge? Did someone teach you the Cornelius was a sign? Or did you come to that knowledge yourself? Did you realize that they angel was Jesus himself?

    I ask you again – if I call a man my brother and I teach the full biblical plan of salvation and he stands up after me and teaches a false “faith only” plan of salvation, who should the lost believe?

    If they are standing together in front of a lost person then one has to put away his rights to the others belief so that unity my be shown to the unbeliever, the principle is found in the passages about meat served to idols. Paul says that if a fellow believer still thinks you can’t eat it, then you stand with your brother.

    How are we to be united in Christ when he rejects the very thing the bible teaches that places us IN Christ (Galatians 3:27)?

    Gal 3:1You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?

    Please include the context of this passage when you quote it. You assume that each time the word baptized is used that it is speaking of water.

    Jesus himself used baptize to talk about his death and suffering that was coming, to assume that water is the meaning of baptism is showing your bias towards water. Water is never used in this chapter at all, but the Spirit is!

    verse 14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

    How many times is spirit used in this chapter and how many times is water used?

    Spirit 4
    Water 0

    Please reconsider what this is talking about, it is Baptism of the spirit not of water! Or are you willing in your words to stand by your ignorance of your forefathers?

  20. Randy,

    I was just teasing you with the “rules” comment. I was just pointing out that you correctly infer (there’s that dirty word) that those men were baptized with John’s baptism post-Pentecost. I infer (is there a filter to catch that word you think?) that you’re saying that they had to be re-baptized because they submitted to a “pre-cross” baptism after the cross. I think that is true as well. You had to have some knowledge to understand that. Why not make sure that we have all of the Biblical information on this (and all) issues?

    My point is simple – you need to know the basic, essential information about baptism for it to be valid. If you didn’t know it, it is probably because you were taught a doctrine not found in the bible (faith only salvation). If you are baptized incorrectly, and then later taught more fully like Apollos, you need to be baptized properly. The difference between me and you (I think) is that you’d call them a brother and just go on with things.

    Here is my big problem – we’re told in both Romans and Galatians that baptism puts us INTO Christ. If you say that you were saved without baptism, then you’re saying you can be saved OUTSIDE of Christ. That is what I had to face for myself and it is what I teach others in the same position I was in.

    As to your questions, the motive should always be faith in Christ. As to your last question in particular the real question is why would they think they didn’t need to be baptized/were saved prior to baptism, etc? The answer is always the same – because they were taught a man-made plan of salvation in a man-made church.

  21. the Angel did not say it was, only Paul did should be only Peter did. Various misspellings also, sorry was in at hurry!

  22. I thought you was messing with me…hard to get that sometimes through reading though.

    I wished I had more time to address this subject …I’m sure you know each argument I have though as do I you.

  23. On September 23, 2008 at 1:46 pm coreydavis Said:

    …they are added by God to the body at the point of baptism, even if they didn’t understand everything about baptism. We aren’t talking Johns baptism here, we aren’t living prior to the cross.

    You and your rules! Why is it that we need to understand what you wrote (regarding why John’s baptism is invalid), yet we don’t have to know that it is for the remission of sins and that it puts us into Christ?

    Do you honestly think the converts of the NT didn’t know those things? Of course they knew those things.

    Yes every practicing Jew realized what baptism was doing for them. The gentiles on the other hand would not but to keep unity everyone had to be baptized.

    The only reason people don’t know them today is because of years of the teachings of men clouding the word of God.

    Maybe for others, but I have my own ability to read and comprehend without the input of another, frankly most of my current views are mine alone as my preacher thinks I am wrong also, but then again isn’t he one of those who has the years of man made teachings? Since both camps are seeing me as wrong I think I might be on to something! 😉

    Look at the lengths walkinlove is willing to go (calling Peter a liar) to cling to the teaching that baptism is not essential.

    Peter did not quote the Angel in Acts 10 correctly, he did not you can read it yourself, did he lie, maybe, but most likely his belief as a practicing Jew who had witnessed Christs baptism led him to think he saw salvation, yet the Angel did not say it or I should say Jesus did not say that to Cornelius. Of course you could show me where the Angel said it if you wish, but we both know it is NOT IN THERE!

    Secondly you make Paul a liar with this perfect knowledge of yours, it is you who calls Paul a liar in your pratices is it not? He saw only part you see all! Yet all who practice as you practice do not see the same things so you prove yourselves to be untrue without any help from anyone else! If you really did posses perfect knowledge you would not disagree on a single scripture at all, you should realize that but somehow you don’t, why is that???????

    This is the problem – that people are hearing a partial gospel and clinging to it even when you show them that there is more.

    Jesus talks to Cornelius because he is called Lord, Peter says the Angel said he would be saved but the Angel did not say that, it is clear as the nose on your face but because you have this man made box built you can’t even consider that Peter misspoke because it breaks your God Box!

    Show me where the Angel who was Jesus said saved to Cornelius? If not why do you cling to a partial gospel that says the Angel said his family would be saved to paraphrase Peter’s words?

    Show me!

  24. hey cory,
    seems that paul should have told peter and the rest of the apostles to get re- baptized ……i dont read it anywhere.
    and if your going to tell me that they were the exception,then your going to have to also excuse all those mentioned in the gospels as being baptized of john.
    wouldnt that have been a good example to everyone to be re-baptized?
    that is how you get into christ……. right.
    lee

  25. By denying the validity of the baptism of some persons, many in the church of Christ actually deny that such persons are saved, and they offer them no fellowship or admission into their congregations.

    Is “for the remission of your sins” a part of the command or a part of the promise? If it is a part of the command, then one is required to understand that purpose and to be immersed specifically for that purpose. If it is a part of the promise, then it is fulfilled by God to the one obeying his command to be immersed whether that person understands fully or not.

    If, in order for baptism to be valid, one must understand its purpose, let us look at the stated purposes. In Peter’s declaration on Pentecost, he first called for convicting faith. Then he called for them to repent and be baptized in order for their sins to be forgiven. Can anyone deny that both faith and repentance, in addition to immersion, are necessary for the remission of sins? Faith, repentance, and baptism are (1) for the forgiveness of sins and (2) to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Shortly after Pentecost, Peter delivered a similar discourse at Solomon’s Porch. Even though baptism is not mentioned specifically, he called for faith and, “Repent therefore, and turn again, (3) that your sins may be blotted out, (4) that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and (5) that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, whom heaven must receive until the time for establishing all that God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from of old” (Acts 3:11-22. Numbering added). If a candidate for baptism must understand these five stated purposes and have them in mind for his baptism to be valid, woe is me!

  26. Commands are to be obeyed, but how do you obey a promise? When Jesus announced, “He who believes and is baptized shall be saved,” he set forth two things that a person can do and the result that God will accomplish. The promised result was not a part of the command. It cannot be obeyed. Neither were any of the five promises enumerated above parts of the command. These are not things a person can do. In Matthew’s account of the Great Commission, no mention is made of the purpose or promise connected with baptism (Matt. 28:18-20), yet we can be confident that God saved those who were obedient.

    Judean disciples in the Jerusalem church were convinced that circumcision, in addition to obedience in baptism, was necessary to be saved, yet no question is raised about the validity of their baptisms (Acts 15).

    Other purposes were fulfilled through baptism in response to faith and repentance also. I shall continue the numbering begun above. We are baptized (6) into Christ (Gal. 3:27; Rom. 6:3-4). By our baptism we are brought (7) into the one body, (8) the church (1 Cor. 12:13; Col. 1:18). It is through this obedience that we are (9) born again, (10) become a child of God, and (11) enter the kingdom of God (John 3:3-5; Gal. 3:26-27). There we find (12) newness of life (Rom. 6:3-4) and (13) are circumcised with the circumcision of Christ (Col. 2:11-14).

    These are things that God through his Spirit accomplished in and for us when we obeyed him in baptism, whether we understood it or not. If one must have had those purposes in mind prior to baptism, then few of us could have confidence that God’s promises were fulfilled in us. Most of us would need rebaptism!

  27. Baptism symbolizes, finalizes, and confirms the change that the convert has undergone rather than accomplishing the change. The conversion process is similar to the process of physical birth. There is an insemination, a conception, a period of gestation, and a parturition or birth. The birth finalizes what has been taking place in the womb rather than being the cause of the life developing process. The parturition is necessary, but it is not the cause of life. Life is not conferred, infused, or poured into the fetus at birth, yet the life-giving process is incomplete without it.

    In similar manner, a sinner hears the gospel, develops faith, decides to submit his life to God in Christ, begins a process of reformation, and is baptized. Although baptism is necessary in this procedure, it is not the cause of life. Baptism confirms what has already been developing in the person. The regeneration is a process finalized by baptism instead of being produced by it.

  28. Now, must a person who held a sacramental view of baptism be rebaptized when he learns of his misunderstanding? Such a person has obeyed what was commanded. He was not commanded to understand all the purposes and implications. If God does not demand such an understanding, why should we? And again, who could ever quality for baptism, for it is likely that none of us has understood all. He stands on unholy ground who rejects others who do not have his particular understanding.

    The respected pioneers of our Movement did not demand rebaptism of those who had been immersed in other groups. It was later in the nineteenth century that an issue began to be made of it. David Lipscomb, the influential editor of the Gospel Advocate, opposed such rebaptism. In 1884, Austin McGary and Elijah Hansborough started the Firm Foundation especially to promote the rebaptism issue. That publication became very effective, but now I am confident that both the issue and the journal are waning.

  29. The Bible talks about water baptism and Spirit baptism. I believe the ONE baptism that can save us is when we are baptized with the Holy Spirit. We are told, “There is one body and one Spirit, as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, and through all, and in you all. John the Baptist said “I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I is coming, whose sandal straps I am not worthy to loose. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.” When someone comes to believe that Jesus is their Lord and Savior and repents for their sins they are baptized with the Holy Spirit and saved at the moment they believed. When someone is baptized with water it is an outward showing of their inward faith in Jesus. Water baptism is a way we can show our love for Jesus, it symbolizes Jesus death on the cross and His resurrection that saved us from our sins. We should want to demonstrate our love and joy in the Lord and be baptized with water. But it is when we believed and repented for our sins that we were baptized by the Holy Spirit and through our faith by the grace of God we were saved.

  30. The letter to the “Ephesians 4:5, speaks of there being one baptism. So, it’s either water which Jesus commanded “until the end” or it’s Holy Spirit baptism?
    Since there is now, in our age, “one baptism,” which of the two, water or Holy Spirit, has ceased? When the purpose of the baptisms that have ceased was fulfilled, the baptism ceased. For example, when the baptism “unto Moses” achieved its purpose, when Israel was finally separated from Egyptian bondage, that baptism was never repeated. When the baptism of John accomplished its purpose, it, too, was terminated (Acts 19:1-5).
    What of water baptism? Does it continue? If so, why? Well, water baptism in the name of Christ is “for the remission of sins” (Acts 2:38). Men must be baptized in order to be saved (Mk. 16:16). Do men today need the forgiveness of sins? Do men today still need to be saved? If so, then water baptism continues. It will exist as long as there are men who need to be forgiven of their sins and saved. So, since there is “one baptism,” which one is left? Which one, of all the baptisms previously cited, which one has a purpose that is still necessary? Which baptism is needed with respect to its purpose as stated in Scripture?
    The one baptism is in water( Acts 2:38 ), but it also has a Spiritual aspect too ( Col.2:11-12 )

  31. churchesof Christ, so you believe as Johnny and company that the Holy Spirit doesn’t exist. You deny that the Holy Spirit is in us and is to help us.

  32. Johnny and crew do not teach that the Holy Spirit doesn’t exist – they teach that He is not operating on Christians today as He done in the past. They do teach that the Holy Spirit lives in the believer through the word ONLY, which I do not agree with. The church of Christ are divided over this issue too and some will not even fellowship with those who claim to have the Holy Spirit residing in them. I think Corey holds this view and Johnny and crew do not. Corey may not have a problem fellowshipping with Johnny, but I have a feeling Johnny would want to make sure Corey is on the same page as he before they could fellowship. I have heard Johnny, James, and Jason speak against this a few times and they consider it error to teach/believe that the Spirit resides in the believer.

  33. They do teach that the Holy Spirit lives in the believer through the word ONLY

    If I tell my kids their grandmother lives in their hearts through pictures of her, is she really living there? Or is it only a man made thought?

  34. It makes me sick at the hypocrisy within the churches of Christ…always claiming unity and following “The Pattern” when the truth is that they are more divided than those they condemn. There are over 100 things that have caused “division” within the churches of Christ and many will not even fellowship with each, while each claims to be following “The Pattern”. Ask for a detailed pattern and you never will get it…because each has their own pattern.

  35. So in reality they are more divided then other denominational churches it would seem!

    So much for the doctrine of unity! I see James Oldfield’s commercial talking about how to find the unity people are looking for and it seems he is misinformed or misrepresenting the truth about the CoC.

  36. They consider the entire New Testament to be “The Pattern”. Ask for this pattern – bet you will not get it…don’t believe me try asking 10 church of Christ preachers to give you a detailed list of the entire New Testament pattern….then compare the patterns…that’s if you could get them to give it to you. I have ask many and not one has ever given me a detailed list of what the New Testament Pattern is….the smart ones will work around this by giving me the so-called 5 acts of worship. I guess what gets under my skin is this big lie being told….it’s one thing to SAY we have unity in all doctrine and all practice , or “speak the same thing and have the same mind and judgment”….but DOING this is quite another issue. It’s the biggest lie of all !!! The only true unity we have is that of Christ and how he saved us….far as every practice, every doctrine, every scripture, every inference, ever assumption, there is not true unity on these within the churches of Christ and these guys who are telling this lie know this! I’m just saying we are fallible beings who can be wrong with our inferences and wrong even with our take on certain practices. To hear some tell it….only the smart ones will figure this out….strange they always consider themselves part of the smart elite

    OKAY….any church of Christ preachers/members willing to give a detailed list of everything the New Testament pattern consist of??? If so, please send your pattern to my blog and after I get a pattern list from 10 church of Christ preachers/members I will post the results….watch how many I receive….and I know I get many hits on my blog from cofC preachers and members……

  37. On September 24, 2008 at 7:18 am churchesofChrist Said:
    So, it’s either water which Jesus commanded “until the end” or it’s Holy Spirit baptism?

    The Bible doesn’t ever show that we are no longer baptized with the Holy Spirit. The Bible does show that the Holy Spirit still can and does save us. So it’s the baptism of the Holy Spirit in which Jesus gives us by Gods grace that saves us.

    God tells us:

    “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

    “that if you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.”

    “For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.”

    “that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.”

  38. justing wondering why you left out the other verse TRUTH….the ones about baptsim…can we put them with the other verses too??

  39. Johnny and his men claim to be the only true Church because they claim that they follow everything the Bible tells us, but yet they don’t follow all of Gods commands. Johnny and his men are so wrapped up thinking that someone has to live by the letter of the law and don’t want to admit that they too fall short of the glory of God that they can’t see why Jesus died on the cross. Jesus died so that those seen as the worst of sinners can be saved.

    “But now the righteousness of God from the law is revealed, being witnesses by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference.”

    Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound, But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more.”

    “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.”

    “knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.”

    “I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.”

  40. and TRUTH, this does concern me because I fear that some have “fallen from grace” and are adding their own laws from assumption/inferences…and to make matters worse, they then desire to bind their assumtions upon others as law and will even reject those who do not abide/obey what they have inferred…….very scary !

  41. On September 24, 2008 at 11:02 am churchesofChrist Said:
    justing wondering why you left out the other verse TRUTH….the ones about baptsim…can we put them with the other verses too??

    Randy , I’m just trying to show you why I believe what I believe. Even the verses like, “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.”, I still believe that we were saved at the moment we believed Jesus as our Savior and repented, not when we were baptized by water.

  42. On September 24, 2008 at 11:23 am churchesofchrist Said:
    and TRUTH, this does concern me because I fear that some have “fallen from grace” and are adding their own laws from assumption/inferences…and to make matters worse, they then desire to bind their assumtions upon others as law and will even reject those who do not abide/obey what they have inferred…….very scary !

    Randy,I totally agree.

  43. I honestly think if you looked at Acts 2:38 where Peter told them to repent you would also see the word “AND” there………ask yourself……repent AND what???

    Or, maybe we could mark out “ AND be baptized” and have the verse read….repent for the remission of sin.

    Let me ask you this: When was Paul forgiven? And the next question: When did Paul believe in Jesus?

  44. TRUTH, in Acts chapter 9 Paul was struck blind when he met the Lord on the road to Damascus . The Lord told Paul to “Arise and go into the city and you will be told “what you must do” (Acts 9:6). Then we read “But they let him by the hand and brought him into Damascus . And he was three days without sight, and neither ate nor drank” (Acts 9:8-9). The Lord sent a man, named Ananias, to tell Paul “what he must do”. The Lord told Ananias to “Arise and go to the street called Straight and inquire at the house of Judas for one called Saul of Tarsus, for behold, he is praying” (Acts 9:11). Paul had been praying but he did not receive forgiveness of his sins through praying, because he was told by Ananias “And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord” (Acts 22:16). Paul did not receive forgiveness of his sins through prayer because he still had all his sins and was told to “Arise and be baptized and wash away your sins”.

    Today men have come up with the idea of the “sinner’s prayer”. The “sinner’s prayer” is a ploy of Satan to cause many people to be lost by not obeying what the Lord says that we must do in order to have our sins forgiven and be saved. Satan knows people are not saved by saying the “sinner’s prayer”, but he knows that “they all might be damned who believed not the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:12). The “sinner’s prayer” if foreign to the Bible. Paul was not told to pray the “sinner’s prayer”, but to “Arise and be baptized and wash away your sins”. Why wasn’t Paul’s sins forgiven by his praying before he was baptized?

    Am I saying a sinner can’t fall to his knee’s in honest sincere pray unto God? NO. The question is, does God save one upon prayer only? If so, why was Paul told “Arise and go into the city and you will be told “what you must do” (Acts 9:6). Why didn’t Jesus just say “Paul, you are saved by faith only and there is nothing you need to do”

  45. churchesof christ, you went from Acts 9:6 to Acts 9:11 and skipped over the verses from Acts 9:12 to Acts 9:19.

    Here is what the verses you skipped say:
    “and in a vision he has seen a man named Ananias coming in and putting his hand on him, so that he might recieve his sught.”
    “Then Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he has done to Your saints in Jerusalem.”
    “And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on your name.”
    “But the Lord answered him, “Go for he is a chosen vessel of mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the chidren of Israel.”
    “For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name’s sake.”
    “And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may recieve your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.”
    “Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he recieved his sight at once; and arose and was baptized.”
    “And when he had recieved food, he was stengthened. Then Saul spent some days with the disciples at Damascus.”

    Paul was baptized by the Holy Spirit.

  46. Just wondering why you say this refers to Paul being baptized with/by the Holy Spirit. Paul was told “what HE must do” not what the Holy Spirit must do. Ananias didn’t say “rise and be baptized by the Holy Spirit”, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord, nor did he say rise and be filled ( controlled ) by the Holy Spirit and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord. Jesus said Paul would be told what HE-PAUL must do, so what was it that Paul done? I think Ananias told Paul what HE must do….not what the Holy Spirit must do

  47. “And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may recieve your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.”

    When Paul recieved his sight he was filled with the Holy Spirit.

  48. Peter says in Acts 11:
    “And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning.”
    “Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, “John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”
    “If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?”
    “When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God saying “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life.”

  49. I don’t deny that Paul had the Holy Spirit, but the question is when was he forgiven….when was his sins washed away? I think the verse here refers to water, seeing he was told what HE must do….and seeing Peter taught this as well…..Paul later wrote that there is one baptism….Jesus said go ye into the world and preach the gospel “baptizing them”….so as long as the gospel is being preached we have this baptism Jesus commanded….so its obvious that the one baptism has to be the one Jesus commaned until the end of the age….

  50. I believe the Bible obviously shows that we are baptized by the Holy Spirit when we believe Jesus is our Savior and that is the one baptism that saves us by the grace of God.

  51. You acknowledge there is one baptism, right? Will you also acknowledge that Jesus was referring to water baptism when he told them to go into the world and preach the gospel baptizing them…

  52. I believe someone is saved the moment they come to believe Christ is their Savior, and I believe we should be baptized in water and should encourage others to do the same.

  53. What would you have said when Peter preached Christ …would you have ask Peter “what shall I do” and when Peter said repent AND be baptized for the remission of sins, would you done as Peter stated?

  54. Excuse me Randy, I see your gettig back to the old school training Johnny taught you since the conversation didn’t go exactly as you wanted it to. I have repented and was SAVED. And after that I was baptized with water. And I can say that my life has totally been changed since Jesus saved me. God has filled me with so much joy and happiness that I never knew before. And I will tell anybody that with God anything is possible and that there could be nothing greater in their life than to have Jesus. Was that a good enough answer for you, Oh thats right I don’t have to answer to you I answer to God and God tells me He saved me when I believed.

  55. Truth, you are taking me the wrong way…its often hard to tell on emails…btw, Johnny is only one of hundreds that I have read and studied behind…and I compare each to “what does the bible say”. There is no way around Acts 2:38 and other verses that speak of baptsim and also connect it to being in Christ…but, anyways…time to go…..ttyl

  56. On September 24, 2008 at 3:01 pm churchesofChrist Said:

    Youre above statement of Acts 11 has been addressed on here and Corey’s blog too…

    You may address it how ever you wish but the fact is that what Peter says the Angel said was not what Cornelius said. Peter assumed that he was saved by that event, but the Angel did not tell Cornelius this at all. Peter assumes that salvation would come to his house, the Angel who is Christ himself does not say this. Show me in Acts 10 where it is spoken by the Angel?

  57. The Bible gives us many accounts that when someone believes they recieve the Holy Spirit, Jesus is living in them. The Bible tells us many, many times that when we believe God will save us. Jesus died to save us, not to condemn us. When we believe and are baptized with the Holy Spirit there is power because it is God, Gods grace. When we are baptized with water there is no power because it is a symbol, a symbol of our love for God. God is much greater than water, and Gods mercy is much greater than anything on this earth. When Jesus walked on this earth He showed us how great Gods love and mercy is. God sure has more love and mercy than any man could ever have. Anyone no matter who they are or what they have done who comes to believe Jesus is their Savior God says He will save them, and God keeps His promises. If someone comes to believe while at Church, at home, driving in their car or on their death bed wherever they are when they believe, when they call on Him God says He will save them.

  58. Read this today, I wonder if we place ourselves in danger by claiming perfect sight?

    John 9:40Some Pharisees who were with him heard him say this and asked, “What? Are we blind too?”

    41Jesus said, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.

  59. WIL, do you think Peter was chosen of Christ and do you consider the writings of Luke to be God breathed? Just curious. Its like you see Peter as an imposter or something…

  60. TRUTH, all I ask is that you take all of the scriputres that relate to forgiveness and write them ALL down….as much as you don’t like it, baptism will be included too. No where is baptism called “a symbol” in scripture, although Paul does remind the Romans that “IF” ( NOTICE THE WORD “IF” ) we are planted in His likeness, we shall be raised in His likeness. What IF one isnt PLANTED in His likeness? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For IF we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection. (Romans 6:3-5)
    In two of his epistles (Romans 6:3-11; Colossians 2:12-13), Paul likened baptism in water to being buried and then resurrected in Christ.

    The apostle Peter wrote:
    For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.” (1 Peter 3:18-21)

  61. Not at all, I see Peter and the rest as chosen, but I am allowing them to have their humanity also. Peter after all is shown by Paul to be afraid of the circumcised group. And there are times when Paul seems to really dislike the Jews.

    I think the original text is in question because of the burnings that took place that eliminated most of the complete manuscripts.

    To me looking at for instance Matthew 29:19 seeing a difference in what was said and what was done in Acts 2:38 I have to wonder why. Did Peter just fail to follow this saying of Jesus, I know there will be a reason why they are the same given as soon as my post is read, but the fact remains that Acts 2:38 and Matthew 28:19 are different.

    Luke 24:45Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46He told them, “This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48You are witnesses of these things. 49I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”

    The above passages of Luke says nothing to us about baptism, only that repentance and forgiveness of sins in his name would be preached to all nations.

    John 20:21Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

    Again John does not say anything about baptism here, he does say Jesus gave them the Holy Spirit and I hold that this is different then the gifts. Jesus does say that you may forgive sins and they will be forgiven but does not tie baptism to it!

    So only in Mark and Matthew do we see baptism as part of the process.

    In Mark 16:15He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

    Now in reading my history of the Church I know that there was an issue with false spirits prophesying through two women, they were in a state of trace while speaking and were considered out of order. This caused a massive split over spirit breathed messages and this led to the building of what we now come to call the Bible. Thus I read Mark knowing that the ending after chapter 8 is in question and have to wonder why it is the only one that talks about snakes, tongues and poison when none of the other gospels say this. Granted I am sure the trained professionals here have a answer for this, but frankly it makes me wonder why it was written the way it was, if it is not the original then what is the motivation behind it. Paul did not handle a snake he was bitten by a snake, I don’t recall reading about anyone drinking poison at all, only in this chapter is it written this way.

    And finally Matthew 28:16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

    Here baptism is spoken of with the three names of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. This is not what was done in Acts 2:38 however. Yet in my readings I know the Gnostic theology believe the God of the old testament was evil but Jesus was good, thus they baptized in Jesus name while peddling their theology to others as false prophets spoken of in the Bible. Thus Baptism in the name of the Father would shut them down cold as they would not be able to do so based on what they believed about the old testament God.

    So out of the 4 gospels we have 2 that speak of baptism at the end of Jesus time on the earth and that both are questioned by some as to their authenticity. The other two that are not in question do not speak of baptism at all.

    I do recall reading in Matthew 16:18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” 20Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ.

    In the above, two things to point out, first the rock that Jesus is talking about is himself and not Peter! Secondly that they were given the keys and could bind or lose whatever they wished.

    So while in my reading Jesus actual commands to baptize are in question, it is clear that Peter bound water baptism to remission of sins. However one has to ask the 64 thousand dollar question.

    Is the servant greater then the master? My answer is no. The master saved the thief, he said baptize in the name of the father, assuming you hold that it is correct text, and Jesus also said believe and be baptized and if you do not believe you will not be saved, I understand that many assume that if you believe and are not baptized you will not be saved bit it should have said that and it did not, and finally he said they could forgive sins and bind things on earth.

    So what am I to believe since it appears to conflict with Jesus sayings. So belief is that Peter bound baptism to the Jews as a means to remove a stumbling block from them so that they would see the old Jewish customs still being done but in a new way that involves Christ as the new covenant sacrifice. There are examples of removal of other stumbling blocks to the Jews, like Timothy being circumcised and also for the gentiles that circumcision was not necessary. Paul took it a step further and said what you eat does not matter either so he removed even what the council talked about to make the way easier to follow for a gentile.

    The question that stands before us all is what is the one baptism, is it spirit or water. There are passages that lead to both as the right answer, however we know that the Holy Spirit is the mark of God or seal that shows is to be of him.

    Eph 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

    I have to wonder how much of this argument does not fall under the following:

    Matthew 23: 24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

    25″Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.

    That concentrating in this case on the Holy Spirit and allowing it to clean the inside of our cup would be preferable to having the outside of the cup cleaned with water baptism and then going off and violating God’s rules on authority so that we could force others to clean the outside also as is done locally in the CoC in Martinsville etc.

    2 Cor 3:5Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. 6He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

    To me the above passage forms it all together, I can dot every I and cross every T and follow the letter but that will lead to death, or I can follow the Spirit and allow the Spirit to guide in the application of the letter of the law and thus live!

    If someone is of Christ you will know them by their fruits:

    Matthew 7:15″Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.

    So if you follow the letter of the new pattern and it has not changed the inside of the cup, are you really in him and he in you?

    Without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and I do not mean the gifts of that Spirit, you are not of him no matter how many times you have washed the outside of the cup.

  62. Let me add this, I have suffered personally under false teaching by a preacher who spoke that unless you speak in tongues you are not saved. This led to depression of a relative close to me who took his own life. While it was not the only reason it did contribute to his depression because he did not have the gift of speaking in tongues.

    So I have lost a loved one to unbalanced teaching that was focused on the letter of a small part of the truth. It brought death to my loved one.

    So how many more have to die by the letter before we start to allow the Spirit of the law to rule?

  63. The question that stands before us all is what is the one baptism, is it spirit or water. There are passages that lead to both as the right answer, however we know that the Holy Spirit is the mark of God or seal that shows is to be of him.

    Eph 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

    – There is one baptism, right? Have you been baptized in water? Have you been baptized in Spirit?

  64. On September 25, 2008 at 8:52 am churchesofChrist Said:
    TRUTH, all I ask is that you take all of the scriputres that relate to forgiveness and write them ALL down….as much as you don’t like it, baptism will be included too.

    I do look at all the verses. I see that God tells us many times that He will save those who BELIEVE. It is there and will not go away no matter how bad you want it to. The Bible tells us we recieve the Holy Spirit when we believe, God saves us the moment we believe. To tell someone they are not saved when they come to believe Jesus Christ is their Savior just is not Scriptural.

    As to Noah what saved him and those with him was it the water or was it the ark? Here’s a good look at it:

    Now we turn to I Peter 3:20&21, which states, “…in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you, not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience- through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.”

    What Peter is saying is that it is not the “ritual” of baptism that saves us, but the appeal to God for a good conscience. In Peter’s day, the Jews were obsessed with rituals. Some were from God, others were man-made. Jesus referred to one of those rituals in Matthew 15. The Jews were upset that His disciples did not wash their hands before they ate, which would have made them ritually “unclean.” Jesus set them straight by saying, “It is not what goes into a man that makes him unclean, but that which comes out of him.” In other words, what a man thinks and says can make him unclean, not eating with unwashed hands.

    So Peter is saying that the ritual of baptism does not save, but the appeal of a good conscience. Look closely at the analogy that he uses, the ark. Did the water save Noah? No, it almost drowned him. So what did the water do for Noah? It separated him from the world, just like water baptism is our declaration that we are separating ourselves from the world. We are dying to ourselves to live in Christ. This verse goes on to say that the water baptism doesn’t actually cleanse our flesh, but it renders a good conscience toward God, because we were obedient to follow His command to be baptized. Jesus was baptized, and I guarantee you it wasn’t for the remission of sin… for He was the perfect, sinless Lamb of God! Here again we must reiterate that no true believer should continue in an unbaptized state. Whereas we can see that God expects us to obey Him in this sacrament, nowhere do we see Him judge those without mercy, who have accepted His Son as their Savior. Bottom line? If you have accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior…get baptized. It’s the right thing to do! The Church of Christ denomination somehow seems to think that they are the only ones who baptize their members. I have never attended a Church that did not baptize their members. It is a command that we simply should not, can not, and will not ignore. But we also cannot point to it (baptism) and say, “That is what saved me.” If you are going to point… point to the Cross.

    With Noah, the ark is what God used to save them from destruction. The ark was a man-made wooden object. Likewise, we are saved now in the same way, by a man-made wooden object, the Cross. What Jesus did on the Cross is what saves you. Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin. Because the Church of Christ denomination puts so much emphasis on the water, they end up taking away from the blood. It’s all about Jesus, not water. Baptism is just a symbol or picture of the actual death, burial and resurrection of Christ.

  65. “Without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and I do not mean the gifts of that Spirit, you are not of him no matter how many times you have washed the outside of the cup”.

    – I agree WILL! Thats why I always say that water baptsim is also Spiritual. It no power in the water itself just as there wasnt any power in the water when the Leper was healed when he dipped…something Spiritual happened to the Leper-he was healed. Why is it so hard to believe that something also Spiritual can happen in water baptism today – sinner being healed of sin.

  66. I watched Johnny last night – a great sermon that touched on this very issue and he kept the focus upon Jesus and His blood and His life…it was a great sermom!

  67. What Peter is saying is that it is not the “ritual” of baptism that saves us, but the appeal to God for a good conscience.

    – and when does the appeal to God for a good conscience occur? I wished I had more time to talk about this, but I dont. If Johnny or Heath is reading, maybe they can help with this…

  68. On September 25, 2008 at 9:29 am walkinglove Said:
    Let me add this, I have suffered personally under false teaching by a preacher who spoke that unless you speak in tongues you are not saved. This led to depression of a relative close to me who took his own life. While it was not the only reason it did contribute to his depression because he did not have the gift of speaking in tongues.

    So I have lost a loved one to unbalanced teaching that was focused on the letter of a small part of the truth. It brought death to my loved one.

    So how many more have to die by the letter before we start to allow the Spirit of the law to rule?

    walkinlove, I know exactly what you are talking about. I once fell victim to a preacher who told me that if I didn’t speak in tongues I would not be saved. I ended up in a very dark place when I was trying to find the light. I was damaged physically and most of all spiritually because of it. They preached alot about the letter of the law. They also preached that if you were not baptized you were not saved. They preached that if you didn’t follow all the commands in the bible to the T you were damned to hell. I will never let anyone try to convince me ever again that God doesn’t love me. Because I went through that has made me want to tell people even more about the true love God has for them. Jesus died to save us not to condemn us.

  69. Hmm… much of that sounds familiar…

    … preaching about the letter of the law…
    … preaching that if you are not baptized you are not saved…
    … preaching that if you don’t follow all the commands in the Bible to the T you are damned…

    Seems like I’ve heard those things spoken of here before.

  70. I’m very sorry you had to go through that Truth, the issue really is there are two sides of the road and both are a ditch. The Mercy side is anything goes and the letter of the law is do it or die.

    They both are ditches that bring destruction. The problem is when you allow the Spirit to guide and walk somewhere near the center and allow the Spirit to govern when mercy and when law are applied and to what degree generally you are shot by those who like their side of the ditch.

    Thus it is easier to pick a side of the ditch so at least you are not shot by both sides! Walking by the Spirit gives the appearance of walking inconsistency but God knows better the needs of people then we do. Some may require a firm hand and pressure to change, others might recoil and be crushed from that same pressure and be in worse shape then before because we applied things the same to each.

    People want things in black and white, it makes it easier to sleep at night knowing that you totally understand the rules and regulations. But there is a mercy factor that is involved in all things, Jesus asked for Mercy not sacrifice, so if we follow the letter without mercy, especially to protect ourselves from criticism, we are only applying part of the truth to people. While it is easier to protect yourselves from attack it harms those you serve. Thus you in effect are trying to save your own live instead of risking it’s loss for others.

    Truth if there is anything I can do to help you, please ask.

    God bless,

    WIL

  71. On September 26, 2008 at 7:31 am walkinglove Said:

    Jesus asked for Mercy not sacrifice,

    wil,
    can you see the similarity of this and whats going on today?

    Isa 1:10 ¶ Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.
    11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
    12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?
    13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
    14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.
    15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.
    16 ¶ Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
    17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
    18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
    19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
    20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

    Do you see the similarity between vs, 19 and Mk 16:16

    19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

    Mr 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

    Using the logic of most people today they would say that all they had to do is to “be willing.”

  72. TD I realize that everything is about baptism to you, that baptism is your Christ! You have to realize that based on what I have read the end of Mark starting in Chapter 9 is in question as to its authenticity. That there is evidence that the text was added later and is not part of all the original documents. I can not in good condense judge salvation based on text that I consider to be in question! And to ask me to do so is a sin!

    The same goes for Matthew 28:19 it also appears to be an addition to the original. Otherwise Peter did not follow Christ’s command to baptize in the name of the father, son and Holy Spirit.

    You can tell me those scriptures till we both are sick of seeing them posted and I will still say the same thing, they are questioned and with reason as to them being original. And because out of the 4 gospels the other two do not talk about baptism at the end I question them even more since they to not match up!

    Under your system TD there is no room for mercy at all, it is just as out of balance as a total mercy focus of anything goes. You may sleep well at night knowing you followed all the rules and regulations to the T. But you set a trap for yourself that allows hypocritical judgment to ensnare you. I have pointed out where JR clearly broke 3 of the 7 things that God hates and you ignored them because he was promoting the Idol of your doctrine and thus it is ok for him to do so?!?! By following that logic we are all lost then, including you! Those who operate in the Spirit of the Law are not following the pattern and we are thus condemned to death, and those following the letter of the law are doing so while violating the things that God hates and passing judgment on others at the same time thus sowing judgment for themselves!

    A perfect example is the big stink JR and James raised over the pub. You stand before all declaring how wrong it is to drink and Jesus first miracle was to turn water into wine?!?! Is abusing alcohol bad, yes it is and it kills people. But to stand before God and man and declare those people who came out to support a sick kid while you yourself go to a grocery store and spending money when you know they sell wine and beer is doing that the Bible talks about when it talks about Judge not lest ye be judged. I am just glad that the people I deal with did not see the show or I would have had a difficult time explaining why it is ok for Jesus to give wine to people who have been at a party and drank all the wine up, and why those people were wrong for showing up at a restaurant that serves food and also alcohol to support someone who was ill!

    Walmart serves food and you can buy beer and wine by the truckload there and I have seen shopping carts full of the stuff. And I have seen a can get cracked on the way out of the parking lot by the owner of it! Its no different! You support a business that sells alcohol just like those others who were supporting that sick kid. It was a total hypocritical judgment! But lets all shout hallelujah and praise God because rightous Judgment has been handed down by the CoC while making all Christians look to be idiots!

    So based on your view of the laws, we would call David a Sodomite because his Church Service might cause him to dance and Jesus a sinner because he contributed to the abuse of alcohol!

    Now how is that correct doctrine?

    As for being willing, Jesus should not have have helped the centurion’s sick servant since he was unwilling to allow Jesus to come to his home and lay hands on the sick. He instead had great faith that Christ did not need to be physically there to heal. He did not follow the pattern of healing by laying on of hands, should we call his faith false?

    By Jesus standards Peter was weak in faith and sank, but the centurion was great in faith even though he was not following the examples of most healings that were done.

    Isa 1:17 Learn to do good.
    Seek justice.
    Help the oppressed.
    Defend the cause of orphans.
    Fight for the rights of widows.

    He was calling on them to do the right thing! People in other churches are doing that very thing, yet you do not see it as such but declare them to be Sodomites?!?

    And I should follow your teachings? Not from what I have seen! The moral high ground you stand on in declaration against all others is strewn with the dead. Dead relationships, dead fellowships all because someone broke the letter of the law and the mindless application of it required them to be killed.

    When Jesus told the story of the Good Samaritan he used Jewish priest for good reason, he knew that what he spoke was true that they would not risk being defiled by a possible dead body because it was more important to hold the letter of the law then to do justice to the situation they faced. Because their focus on the letter of the law was all about themselves and their position and not about following God at all.

    As for believing that water has power, the only water I believe in is the living water of Jesus Christ and the seal that is the Holy Spirit. Peter called on the Jews to be baptized to cover them with ceremonial washing. You and I are not in a environment that could see is killed for violating Jewish Old Testament law as they were in that time, after all Peter by Paul’s own words was afraid of the circumcision group, you are not being baptized by an Apostle! One can take the same application that is used to denounce the thief on the cross’ salvation. You say you can’t be saved like the thief because you are not there hanging on the cross even when it is clearly shown the old ways were done the moment the veil was torn before the thief died. I say you are not being baptized by an Apostle and a practicing Jew either!

    So no I do not see the comparison at all except to see you bringing back the old ways of the law and applying them to the new law as life when clearly the letter brings death, but the Spirit brings life!

  73. On September 26, 2008 at 7:31 am walkinglove Said:
    I’m very sorry you had to go through that Truth, the issue really is there are two sides of the road and both are a ditch. The Mercy side is anything goes and the letter of the law is do it or die.

    They both are ditches that bring destruction. The problem is when you allow the Spirit to guide and walk somewhere near the center and allow the Spirit to govern when mercy and when law are applied and to what degree generally you are shot by those who like their side of the ditch.

    Thus it is easier to pick a side of the ditch so at least you are not shot by both sides! Walking by the Spirit gives the appearance of walking inconsistency but God knows better the needs of people then we do. Some may require a firm hand and pressure to change, others might recoil and be crushed from that same pressure and be in worse shape then before because we applied things the same to each.

    People want things in black and white, it makes it easier to sleep at night knowing that you totally understand the rules and regulations. But there is a mercy factor that is involved in all things, Jesus asked for Mercy not sacrifice, so if we follow the letter without mercy, especially to protect ourselves from criticism, we are only applying part of the truth to people. While it is easier to protect yourselves from attack it harms those you serve. Thus you in effect are trying to save your own live instead of risking it’s loss for others.

    Truth if there is anything I can do to help you, please ask.

    God bless,

    WIL

    Thank You walkinglove.
    The laws are given to help us understand what it is God created us for, to love God and to love one another. We should try to follow the laws the best that we can, but we are not nor ever will be perfect while on this side of heaven. Because we are not perfect and will always have sin, by the law we should die. But God loved us so much that He sent us Jesus to die and shed His blood for our sins so that when we fall short we are saved by His grace and mercy. It wasn’t the Jews that killed Jesus nor the Romans, it was the sins of all men that killed Jesus. He died so that our sins can be forgiven, Jesus died to save us from our sins so that we could have life. And yes people do get caught up in their flesh and take for granted what it is God did for us and will have to stand before God, as we all will. But on the flip side people also get caught up in their flesh and think they are righteous to condemn others and depend on their own flesh to save them and will have to stand before God, as we all will. What everyone needs to see is that we all need Jesus to save us. We need His Spirit to help guide us. Where the laws condemns us Jesus saves us, otherwise Jesus died in vain.

  74. On September 26, 2008 at 3:52 pm walkinglove Said:
    And I should follow your teachings?

    So no I do not see the comparison at all except to see you bringing back the old ways of the law and applying them to the new law as life when clearly the letter brings death, but the Spirit brings life!

    Wil: All I did was apply the scriptures, The “teachings”
    that you claim to be mine actually were given by Christ.

    Wil said:
    Under your system TD there is no room for mercy at all,

    Again Wil, I didn’t invent the system.
    Do you have children? suppose one of them were invited to a birthday party and was really looking forward to going but they misbehaved so badly two days before that you told them they could not go, but then you knew how much they were looking foreward to it so you made an exception and told him/her that except they apoligize for their behavior and clean their room they would not go to the party. Would you not be showing them mercy?

    Ro 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

    What ya gonna do?

    Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

    Lu 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

    Mt 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
    33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

    Mr 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

    Lu 7:29 And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.
    30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.

    Wil, was God not merciful to those Pharisees and lawyers?

  75. On September 27, 2008 at 3:52 pm T.D. Said:

    Do you have children? suppose one of them were invited to a birthday party and was really looking forward to going but they misbehaved so badly two days before that you told them they could not go, but then you knew how much they were looking foreward to it so you made an exception and told him/her that except they apoligize for their behavior and clean their room they would not go to the party. Would you not be showing them mercy?

    TD, what you described is someone rewarding a child for doing a good deed. But when you give someone a free gift out of love you don’t tell them they have to go clean their room before you will give them the free gift, no you give them the free gift simply because you love them.

    “But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.”

    “And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgement which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification.”

    “For if by one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who recieve abundance of grace and of the free gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.”

    “Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgement came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so throughon Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.” justification of life.”

    “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is th gift of God.”

    “Thanks be to God for His indescribable gift.”

  76. So no truth
    You would say that all who believe are justified through “faith only” right?

    Theres nothing one must do, so say you.

    no need to repent?
    no need to confess Christ?
    no need to be baptized?
    no need to live faithful lives?

    Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

    Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

    Who’s work?

    Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

  77. Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

    How about a bit of context, TD? Care to tell us what was going on in the passage that led James to make that statement?

  78. When a person comes to believe Jesus is their Savior they are turning to the only One who can forgive and save them from their sins. I have never met anyone who believes Jesus is their Savior who does not confess that He is. We are baptized with the Holy Spirit the moment we believe Jesus is our Savior and are saved. And as Christians we should try to live for God the best that we can. But we are not perfect and do and will sin. We should ask the Holy Spirit who is in us to help guide us in our walk with the Lord who died to save us from all our sins. For the Lord said, “And whatever things you ask in prayer, believing you will recieve.”

    “But now the righteousness of God is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and Prophets,

    “even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. for there is no difference”

    “for all have sinned and all fall short of the glory of God”

    “being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus”

    “whom God set forth as a propitation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate, to demonstrte His righteousness, because in His forebearance God has passed over all the sins that were previously committed’

    “to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.”

  79. What Does The Bible Say?

    Faith and the Law:

    “What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through the angels by the hand of the mediator.” “Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.” “Is the law then against the promise of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.” “But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.” “But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would be revealed.” “Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.” “But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.”

    Now let’s look at the faith that is revealed:

    “But now the righteousness of God is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and Prophets,”even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference” “for all have sinned and all fall short of the glory of God” “being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,” “whom God set forth as a propitation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forebearance God has passed over all the sins that were previously committed,” “to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.”

    Now let’s look at the Seed to whom God promised was made:

    “For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.” “For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise of no effect,” “For because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.” “Therefore it is of faith according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is father of us all.” “As it is written “I have made you a father of many nations” in the prescence of Him whom he believed-God, who gives life to the dead and calls on those things which do not exist as though they did” “who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nation, according to what was spoken, “So shall you descendants be.” “And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead since he was about a hundred yesrs old, and the deadness of Sarah’s womb.” “He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strngthened in faith, giving glory to God.” “and being fully convinced that He was also able to perform.” ‘ and therefore it was accounted to him for righteousness.” “Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him,” “but also for us. it shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised Jesus ou Lord from the dead,” “who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.”
    “Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,” “through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.” “And not only that, but we also glory tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces prserverance” “and preserverance, character; and character, hope.” “Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.”

  80. The laws are given to help us understand what it is God created us for, to love God and to love one another. We should try to follow the laws the best that we can, but we are not nor ever will be perfect while on this side of heaven. Because we are not perfect and will always have sin, by the law we should die. But God loved us so much that He sent us Jesus to die and shed His blood for our sins so that when we fall short we are saved by His grace and mercy. It wasn’t the Jews that killed Jesus nor the Romans, it was the sins of all men that killed Jesus. He died so that our sins can be forgiven, Jesus died to save us from our sins so that we could have life. And yes people do get caught up in their flesh and take for granted what it is God did for us and will have to stand before God, as we all will. But on the flip side people also get caught up in their flesh and think they are righteous to condemn others and depend on their own flesh to save them and will have to stand before God, as we all will. What everyone needs to see is that we all need Jesus to save us. We need His Spirit to help guide us. Where the laws condemns us Jesus saves us, otherwise Jesus died in vain.

  81. ACoc;
    Sure;
    Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
    22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
    23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

    Would Abraham have been justified if He had not obeyed God? Neither is man today.
    If you are to ignorant to see that you wont have anything to worry about, you’ll make it.

    but I think you see it.

  82. no truth said:
    We are baptized with the Holy Spirit the moment we believe Jesus is our Savior and are saved.

    Can you give that scripture?

  83. no truth said;
    no you give them the free gift simply because you love them.

    And if that free gift happens to be a V.C.R. then all they have to do according to you is believe that they are watching a movie and poof! they are. they don’t have to plug it in. They don’t have to turn it on. They don’t have to put a tape in. If they do then whoever gave it to them as a gift sure wasn’t merciful.

  84. TD, you didn’t read it did you.

    “Therefore it is of faith according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is father of us all.” “As it is written “I have made you a father of many nations” in the prescence of Him whom he believed-God, who gives life to the dead and calls on those things which do not exist as though they did” “who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nation, according to what was spoken, “So shall you descendants be.” “And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead since he was about a hundred yesrs old, and the deadness of Sarah’s womb.” “He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God.” “and being fully convinced that He was also able to perform.” ” and therefore it was accounted to him for righteousness.” “Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, but also for us. “It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised Jesus ou Lord from the dead,” “who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.”

    Issac wasn’t even born yet. It was because Abraham believed Gods promise that he and Sarah would be able to bear children. God made the promise to Abrahams seed because Abraham believed.

  85. “Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.”

    Paul is talking to Christians,

    Ro 5:1 ¶ Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
    2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
    3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
    4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
    5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

    Go back to Ch.1
    Ro 1:11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;

    Now if these Christians had been baptized “in the Holy Spirit” as you say everyone who believes is, Why would Paul need to come to see them to impart some spiritual gift?

  86. Ge 12:1 ¶ Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father’s house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
    2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
    3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

    So you are saying that if Abraham had stayed in his own country and with his own kindred in his fathers house that God would have still blessed him?

  87. On September 28, 2008 at 3:45 pm T.D. Said:
    no truth said:
    We are baptized with the Holy Spirit the moment we believe Jesus is our Savior and are saved.

    Can you give that scripture?

    So you didn’t read it.
    “Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, but also for us. “It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead,” “who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.”
    “Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,” “through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.” “And not only that, but we also glory tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces prserverance” “and preserverance, character; and character, hope.” “Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.”

  88. TD,

    Okay, you’ve widened things out a bit more – but when I say context, I mean – what was going on when James wrote what he wrote? What issues was he addressing? Context means in light of the whole book, not just a couple of other verses.

  89. On September 27, 2008 at 3:52 pm T.D. Said:

    On September 26, 2008 at 3:52 pm walkinglove Said:
    And I should follow your teachings?

    So no I do not see the comparison at all except to see you bringing back the old ways of the law and applying them to the new law as life when clearly the letter brings death, but the Spirit brings life!

    Wil: All I did was apply the scriptures, The “teachings”
    that you claim to be mine actually were given by Christ.

    All scripture is not Christ’s! I saw JR say that and that is in fact not true, if it were then the ability to divorce would not have been corrected by Jesus himself while on the earth.

    Secondly, even if you quote scripture you have a bias just as all people do including myself. We each see in part of what is the whole truth. Thus you can connect the dots as you see fit, sometimes taking scripture out of context as I can do to make a point that we believe to be true.

    Wil said:
    Under your system TD there is no room for mercy at all,

    Again Wil, I didn’t invent the system.

    No but you interpret the system to your own understanding. I believe that many in the CoC also do not believe the Holy Spirit indwells in us now, yet there is nothing written to say that is true that I have read.

    Do you have children? suppose one of them were invited to a birthday party and was really looking forward to going but they misbehaved so badly two days before that you told them they could not go, but then you knew how much they were looking forward to it so you made an exception and told him/her that except they apologize for their behavior and clean their room they would not go to the party. Would you not be showing them mercy?

    If they were my child I would discipline them for there actions, but they would still be my child and I would still love them. I certainly would not disown them for simply making one bad choice! Yet under your system of scripture focus that is exactly what you believe. I believe you confuse discipline while in relationship with not being in a relationship at all.

    Secondly, if the child did say they were sorry and cleaned their room are they really repentant? Could they be living in fear and doing what they were told to do only because they feared me? If so do we really have a relationship to build anything on? Or are they simply cleaning the outside of the cup to fool me into thinking they are sorry for their actions?

    Ro 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

    What ya gonna do?

    Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

    What I have already done, believed he is whom he said he was. My faith is in Jesus, not in water that is used to wash the outside of the cup to support the Jewish traditions of ceremonial washings.

    Lu 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

    Mt 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

    33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

    Ah but those who believe and do not deny him you still condemn because they do not follow your focus in scripture on water as the fourth divine being that has more power the Satan himself to stop salvation.

    Mr 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

    Ah yes I was expecting to see this passage. It was one of the two added to scripture to backup Peter’s choice to loose water baptism on the Jews in Acts and then the Gentiles to keep the Jewish believers happy. You know the ones Paul struggled against so often.

    The passage does not say he is baptized not will be damned, and the passage is not in all the original texts of the end of Mark. Not because they were missing the end of the book but that it was simply not part of the scribes recordings and the paper was left blank at the end after chapter 8.

    Yet you take a text that is in question and curse all those who do not worship water! And refuse to see why Peter did as he did, he used the example of John’s baptism of Jesus, he used the Leviticus ceremonial washings for sin atonement to make it easy for the Jews to submit to the new covenant. It made their transition easier because it was already part of their traditions.

    Lu 7:29 And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.
    30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.

    Wil, was God not merciful to those Pharisees and lawyers?

    Because they claimed to have the real truth that was handed down to them by their teachers and so on, yet all their book study failed to allow them to see who Jesus was. How is it that men who memorized scripture did not know Jesus?

    Because they had no real relationship with God, their religious behavior was only for show, it was all outside oriented for approval of others. Had they been really walking close to God they would have seen the truth and not been offended. It was their pride of their knowledge that brought them down!

    So since you are the defending of the one true faith and claim that has been passed down since the days of Acts, how are you different then those same Pharisees and scribes? And how is it that a movement that has its roots with restoration movement.

    So TD who are you body wise?

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Christ

    The above is a general listing for CoC and others, I find it interesting the JR can stand up and hold the Bible and claim this is all Jesus word and should be in red when he ignores the Old Testament examples of dealing with leadership.

    You clean the cup through water but your leaders use deception to advance their beliefs, telling one caller you use recordings for defensive purposes while playing a recording where you caught someone in sin that is in no way a defensive measure! Taking whatever the situation is and putting the worst possible light on it to bring harm to others who profess Jesus before men and to create doubt in the minds of those watching. Sowing discord is wrong, it was wrong in the Old Testament and it is wrong now!

    So you tell us you are the keepers of the truth from the beginning, yet I see hungry lions roaming about seeking whom they might devour. How is it that Godly men can use Satan’s tactics to advance God’s doctrine and he not discipline them for it? After all does he not discipline those whom he loves?

  90. Johnny and his men cause strife among Christians, they try to make Christians stumble they place themselves on Gods throne and judge others. They do not show anything like that of Jesus.

    On September 28, 2008 at 10:45 pm walkinginlove Said:

    You clean the cup through water but your leaders use deception to advance their beliefs, telling one caller you use recordings for defensive purposes while playing a recording where you caught someone in sin that is in no way a defensive measure! Taking whatever the situation is and putting the worst possible light on it to bring harm to others who profess Jesus before men and to create doubt in the minds of those watching. Sowing discord is wrong, it was wrong in the Old Testament and it is wrong now!

    So you tell us you are the keepers of the truth from the beginning, yet I see hungry lions roaming about seeking whom they might devour. How is it that Godly men can use Satan’s tactics to advance God’s doctrine and he not discipline them for it? After all does he not discipline those whom he loves?

    AMEN WIL

  91. TD proved even more how they try to twist Gods word. He even tried to say that Gods promise to Abrahams seed was because Abraham offered Isaac. The promise was made because Abraham believed God that he and Sarah would bear children, before Isaac was even born.
    They try to find any way they can to twist the word of God.

  92. They may say “he proved his faith by his works”…..I think he worked because he had faith…..Abraham wasn’t trying to earn Gods favor ….like I said, these men tend to focus on works more….and that concerns me….

  93. Corey, I agree totally with your post on your blog – this has also raised a question in my mind. Since Paul also declares there is One Faith ….what is the One Faith. I have read various POV’s on this and some conclude this to be “The entire New Testament” while others see this to be “faith in Jesus Christ i.e., the gospel”. I lean toward the one faith being faith in Jesus Christ i.e., the gospel…

    One Lord = Jesus
    One faith = The gospel of Jesus Christ ?
    One baptism = water baptism ( God adding one to the body )

  94. Randy,

    I too would lean toward the one faith being the gospel of Jesus Christ. According to 1 Corinthians 15, the things of “first importance” in the gospel would be the death, burial and resurrection. I think that we would also have to include the life of Jesus, His commandments that He gave while upon this earth, and the commandments of His inspired apostles.

    I think the key, especially in this world where people are encouraged to have their own “faith”, is to realize that for Christians there is simply THE faith – the faith in Christ and all He has given us. Of all of the 7 ones, this “one” (faith) seems to me to encompass more than any other.

  95. On September 29, 2008 at 10:22 am Truth Said:

    TD proved even more how they try to twist Gods word. He even tried to say that Gods promise to Abraham’s seed was because Abraham offered Isaac. The promise was made because Abraham believed God that he and Sarah would bear children, before Isaac was even born.
    They try to find any way they can to twist the word of God.

    James 2:20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

    Well at face value this appears to be what James is saying however I have to wonder, based on the following passage:

    Genesis 17:19 Then God said, “Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him.

    Genesis 21:12 But God said to him, “Do not be so distressed about the boy and your maidservant. Listen to whatever Sarah tells you, because it is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.

    So offering Issac was a moot point, even if killed God would have to have raised him from the dead to prove his word correct as he had already said Issac would be the one through all his offspring would be reckoned or called in the Hebrew.

    Issac as irreplaceable! So Abraham’s faith in God was what allowed him to offer Issac knowing God would have to do something to keep Issac alive.
    I guess the simple question is would he have been considered righteous if he did not believe God’s promise but had offered Issac out of fear for his own life?

  96. “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.”

    One Lord = Jesus
    One faith = believing in Jesus
    One baptism = Holy Spirit

  97. Abraham would have done anything for God, he was surely a man who had great faith. When Abraham offered Isaac God stopped him, God did not require that Abraham kill his son and provided Abraham a ram as the sacrifice, the same as God gave us Jesus as the sacrifice for our sins.

  98. Abraham believed and trusted God. He believed what God said and that God would take care of him. It was because he believed that he trusted God. That is what we do when we believe Jesus is our Savior, we put our life in Gods hands, not in our own, we trust that He will take care of us. We should put our trust in God not in that of our flesh. God says if we believe in Jesus He will save us, He will take care of us.

    “O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified?” “This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?” “Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?” “Have you suffered so many things in vain if indeed it was in vain?” “Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?” “just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” “Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.” “And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” “So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.”

    “O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified?” “This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?” “Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?” “Have you suffered so many things in vain if indeed it was in vain?” “Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?” “just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” “Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.” “And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” “So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.”

    “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.”

  99. Im not saying we dont have the Holy Spirit residng is us…thatis a far cry from the “baptism with the Spirit”

    If you are saying this proves baptism with the Holy Spirit, you have EVERYBODY that is saved being baptized with the Holy Spirit.

    Paul addressed the Galatians because they were turning from grace to law as a means to be justified.

    When John baptized, were they earning favor by works or acting in faith?

    Paul wrote “Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified?”

    How does one OBEY the truth ?
    What truth did they OBEY?

  100. The truth is that the law does not save us, Jesus saves us. We are baptized with the Holy Spirit when we believe Jesus Christ is our Savior.

    Randy you do not know me or know what Jesus has done for me in my life, so understand that you nor Johnny and his men are ever going to convince me that I should put my trust in anything other than Jesus. Jesus is my Savior, not a tub of water.

  101. Jesus is the Word, Jesus is Truth, Jesus is the Way. There is nothing on earth that is even close to being greater than Jesus.

  102. I am sorry for the typing errors, trying to do too much at one time. I left out the word “the” and I know how funny some folks can be over a little word like “the”. It was suppose to say Jesus is the Word, Jesus is the Truth, Jesus is the Way.

  103. 1 Corinthians 12:13 states that all have been baptized just as all have made to drink (the indwelling of the Spirit). Second, nowhere in Scripture does it exhort believers to be baptized with / in / by the Spirit. This indicates that all believers have experienced this ministry. Ephesians 4:5 seems to refer to Water/Spirit baptism as being ONE baptism. If this is the case, Water/Spirit baptism is the reality of every believer, just as “one faith” and “one Father” are. The one baptism in water is Spirit baptism, seeing the water has no power to unite one with God, but in the act of obedient faith, when a sinner submits to water baptism, God does the work ( Col. 2:11-12 ) which makes it a Spiritual baptism.

    The baptism of the Holy Spirit does two things, (1) it joins us to the Body of Christ, and (2) it actualizes our co-crucifixion with Christ. Being in His body means we are risen with Him to newness of life (Romans 6:4). Water baptism is both physical and Spiritual, ONE baptism.

    I think we are afraid to call water baptism “The baptism of the Holy Spirit”, but it’s God who adds to the body and it’s God who does the real work of uniting one to Christ – we just act in obedient faith and submit to water bapstim and God does the “real baptism”. I see water baptism as Spirit baptsim…I don’t have a problem even calling it “The baptism of the Holy Spirit”. We sometimes are so focused on the water, we forget the Spiritual aspect of water baptism.

    I believe the real bapstim is Spiritual baptim in water. I think Paul is referring to water baptism in Ephesians 4:5, but he also knows there is no power in the water – and knows its Spiritual. He explained this to the Romans when he wrote them – something Spiritual happened at baptism…we died with Christ and are risen with Him to newness of life – this is our baptism – UNITED WITH CHRIST

  104. “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.”

    “In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise”

    “For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect”

    “For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.”

    The gospel of Christ says that salvation is to all who BELIEVE. It is because we hear the gospel of Christ that tells us Jesus will save us when we BELIEVE in Him that He is our Savior, having believed we are sealed with the Holy Spirit and saved by Gods grace.
    Jesus is my Savior, and nothing else can take His place.

  105. The matter of Eph 4:5, it does not clearly say water or Spirit in the sentance or both, thus the only option open is to look around the passage and see what else is being talked about.

    Verse 22 says this:22You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires;

    This is death of the old way, if baptism is a death and rebirth in a new life style then this fits the first part of applying baptism.

    23to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

    And here he is talking about being raised in a new self, a new attitude in our minds. I would suggest this is the raising to life part of baptism.

    Thus I would conclude that he is using baptism as a symbol of death to the old ways and raising to life in a new way as these verses say.

    If so then baptism in this case is neither water or spirit but a life style and thought change that involves death to the old and birth to the new.

  106. Jesus is our Savior. Someone who comes to believe Jesus is their Savior is wanting Jesus to save them. To say that anyone would turn to Jesus other than to want to repent for their sins is beyond ridiculous.

    I believe God is merciful, where you don’t. When a man is on his death bed and comes to believe Jesus is his Savior and calls out to Jesus to save him from all he has done wrong, you condemn him and I don’t.

  107. I believe God is merciful, where you don’t. When a man is on his death bed and comes to believe Jesus is his Savior and calls out to Jesus to save him from all he has done wrong, you condemn him and I don’t.

    – No TRUTH, I do NOT condemn him or anyone. I cant say what God will do in that case…he is Just and Holy and He alone makes that choice, not me. So, I will not play God and say that people on their death bed are hell bound if they wait to then…I will leave that to God

  108. Must I do what Peter says in Acts 2:38?? REPENT??

    – If your answer is yes, then you have to answer yes to baptism here too, seeing Peter tied them together with the word “AND”….no matter how hard you try, you will not get around this…

  109. On October 1, 2008 at 5:52 am churchesofChrist Said:
    Must I do what Peter says in Acts 2:38?? REPENT??

    – If your answer is yes, then you have to answer yes to baptism here too, seeing Peter tied them together with the word “AND”….no matter how hard you try, you will not get around this…

    A person who comes to believe Jesus is their Savior is turning to Jesus to save them, they are repenting. A person does not have to be baptized to be saved. A person is saved the moment they believe Jesus is their Savior.

  110. Jesus is our Savior. Someone who comes to believe Jesus is their Savior is wanting Jesus to save them. To say that anyone would turn to Jesus other than to want to repent for their sins is beyond ridiculous.

  111. On October 1, 2008 at 5:52 am churchesofChrist Said:

    Must I do what Peter says in Acts 2:38?? REPENT??

    – If your answer is yes, then you have to answer yes to baptism here too, seeing Peter tied them together with the word “AND”….no matter how hard you try, you will not get around this…

    If you are going to follow this to the letter of the law then lets do so. Anyone who does not do exactly as Christ commanded is damned.

    That means everyone who was not baptized according to Matthew 28:19! So every person that peter and the other Apostles baptized in Jesus name were done improperly according to verse 19.

    See it really wasn’t hard to get around this, I can add Cornelius who was already saved as the Holy Spirit’s seal proved without water. And the Thief who died after the veil was torn and thus was under the New Covenant.

    So if Acts 2:38 is law, then the Thief was lied to by Jesus, Jesus lied to everyone in Matthew 28:19 about how to baptize people and Cornelius had an evil spirit masquerading as the Holy Spirit fall on him.

    The black and white games get ugly if you really want to walk down the path of the letter of the law, don’t they?

  112. “A person who comes to believe Jesus is their Savior is turning to Jesus to save them, they are repenting. A person does not have to be baptized to be saved. A person is saved the moment they believe Jesus is their Savior.”

    – Read Acts 2 again…they clearly believed prior to repenting as evidenced by them being pricked in their hearts. If they were forgiven they surely didn’t know it, seeing they ask Peter “what shall we do” and Peter didn’t think so either, seeing he answered them by telling them to “Repent and be baptized”. These men Peter preached to BELIEVED prior to repenting and they ask Peter WHAT SHALL WE DO….they already believed and now was wanting to know what they must do about what they believe…..Peter told them….

  113. On October 1, 2008 at 7:15 am walkinglove Said:
    On October 1, 2008 at 5:52 am churchesofChrist Said:

    Must I do what Peter says in Acts 2:38?? REPENT??

    – If your answer is yes, then you have to answer yes to baptism here too, seeing Peter tied them together with the word “AND”….no matter how hard you try, you will not get around this…

    If you are going to follow this to the letter of the law then lets do so. Anyone who does not do exactly as Christ commanded is damned.

    That means everyone who was not baptized according to Matthew 28:19! So every person that peter and the other Apostles baptized in Jesus name were done improperly according to verse 19.

    See it really wasn’t hard to get around this, I can add Cornelius who was already saved as the Holy Spirit’s seal proved without water. And the Thief who died after the veil was torn and thus was under the New Covenant.

    So if Acts 2:38 is law, then the Thief was lied to by Jesus, Jesus lied to everyone in Matthew 28:19 about how to baptize people and Cornelius had an evil spirit masquerading as the Holy Spirit fall on him.

    The black and white games get ugly if you really want to walk down the path of the letter of the law, don’t they?

    Exactly walkinglove!!

  114. “That means everyone who was not baptized according to Matthew 28:19! So every person that peter and the other Apostles baptized in Jesus name were done improperly according to verse 19”.

    – WIL, I think Corey addressed this as did Scott on Corey’s blog.

    In the name of the law, stop. What does “in the name of” mean?

    In Jesus name, be baptized. What does “in Jesus name” mean?

    By the authority of the law, stop.

    By the authority of Jesus, be baptized.

    In the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit baptize them. What does “in the name of” mean?

    By the authority of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit baptize them

    “If you have seen me, you have seen the Father” Is not Jesus God?? Are not the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit God, speaking of ONE authority? Doing something “in Jesus name” is by the authority of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Being baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is being baptized in Jesus name and being baptized in Jesus name is being baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Its not some formula of words that make it valid, its by the authority of God!

  115. “Exactly walkinglove!!”

    TRUTH, the statement falls way short of addressing Acts 2…each and everything you guys are bring up have been addressed on her already. Since this blog is not answering the church of Christ any longer, due to Nathan having a new job…maybe its best you bring these arguments into other blogs, such as Corey’s and Scott’s. They will happily address these questions

  116. If you were back there when Peter preached the first gospel sermon – when they ask Peter “what shall we do” would you have done as Peter commanded, or would you have told Peter. “Jesus is my answer, I don’t need to do nothing else Peter”

    Come on now, you know if any of them men told Peter that statement, they would not have been forgiven. Again, they believed PRIOR to Peter telling them to repent. If BELIEF were enough, then Peter sure didn’t know it and they didn’t either as evidenced by them asking Peter “WHAT SHALL WE DO”

    Do about what ?? What were they asking Peter ???

    They were saying I believe now tell me what I should do about it………………Peter told them….either you are wrong or Peter was wrong, you decide.

  117. Do you not see the
    “according to” “pattern”,”form”,”example”

    Ro 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
    4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

    just a few verses later:
    Ro 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that FORM of doctrine which was delivered you.

    Php 3:17 ¶ Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ENSAMPLE.

    ensample #1
    Ac 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
    37 ¶ Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
    38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
    39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
    40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
    41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

    ensample # 2
    Ac 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
    13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

    ensample # 3
    Ac 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

    ensample # 4
    Ac 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
    18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

    ensample # 5
    Ac 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

    ensample # 6
    Ac 16:32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
    33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

    ensample # 7
    Ac 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.
    15 And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.

    ensample # 8
    Ac 18:8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.

    1Ti 4:12 Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an EXAMPLE of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.

    Tit 2:7 In all things shewing thyself a PATTERN of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,

    Heb 8:4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
    5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the PATTERN shewed to thee in the mount.

    1Co 10:6 ¶ Now these things were our EXAMPLES, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

    1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ENSAMPLES: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

    Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the MANNER of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

    Joh 13:15 For I have given you an EXAMPLE, that ye should do as I have done to you.

    1Ti 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a PATTERN to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

    2Ti 1:13 Hold fast the FORM of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

    Ge 6:22 ¶ Thus did Noah; ACCORDING TO all that God commanded him, so did he.

    Ge 7:5 ¶ And Noah did ACCORDING UNTO all that the LORD commanded him.

    Ex 12:35 And the children of Israel did ACCORDING TO the word of Moses; and they borrowed of the Egyptians jewels of silver, and jewels of gold, and raiment:

    Ex 17:1 ¶ And all the congregation of the children of Israel journeyed from the wilderness of Sin, after their journeys, ACCORDING TO the commandment of the LORD, and pitched in Rephidim: and there was no water for the people to drink.

    Ex 39:42 ACCORDING TO all that the LORD commanded Moses, so the children of Israel made all the work.

    Ex 29:35 And thus shalt thou do unto Aaron, and to his sons, ACCORDING TO all things which I have commanded thee: seven days shalt thou consecrate them.

    Ex 31:11 And the anointing oil, and sweet incense for the holy place: ACCORDING TO all that I have commanded thee shall they do.

    Ex 40:16 ¶ Thus did Moses: ACCORDING TO all that the LORD commanded him, so did he.

    Le 10:7 And ye shall not go out from the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: for the anointing oil of the LORD is upon you. And they did ACCORDING TO the word of Moses.

    1Ch 15:15 And the children of the Levites bare the ark of God upon their shoulders with the staves thereon, as Moses commanded ACCORDING TO the word of the LORD.

    No Pattern? BLASPHEMY

    Ro 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

  118. Nobody is denying there isn’t laws, rules, guidelines, patterns, that Christians are to adhere to ( from Love )….its when we “assume a pattern” that has caused splits and sects within the churches of Christ……..and there are many EXAMPLES of sects within the church of Christ over issues they each consider to be “The Pattern”….good job with the verses above, but that’s not the problem being addressed….

  119. What you mean is you have gone from worshiping God to worshiping the examples of other men, you have in fact taken the pattern and turned it into a idol.

  120. Matthew 5 with servatude to the pattern!

    3″Blessed are the poor in spirit,
    for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

    Unless of course they do not hold to the pattern, then they are defellowshiped!

    4Blessed are those who mourn,
    for they will be comforted.

    Unless of course they do not hold to the pattern, then they will be judged for their weakness

    5Blessed are the meek,
    for they will inherit the earth.

    Unless of course they do not hold to the pattern, then they will be told they are damned.

    6Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
    for they will be filled.

    Unless of course they do not hold to the pattern, then they have ability to ask before the righteousness judge.

    7Blessed are the merciful,
    for they will be shown mercy.

    Unless of course they grant mercy over pattern issues then they are judged liberal and not of the body.

    8Blessed are the pure in heart,
    for they will see God.

    only if they follow the pattern perfectly that is.

    9Blessed are the peacemakers,
    for they will be called sons of God.

    Not in our church body, because they are to weak to stand up and contend for the faith.

    10Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
    for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

    Unless we find fault with some part of the pattern they are not adhering to then their persecution does not count before us or God.

  121. then they have ability to ask before the righteousness judge. should be then they have NO ability to ask before the righteousness judge.

  122. Matthew 12 – The Pharisees are called on their sabbath pattern:

    1At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. 2When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, “Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.”

    3He answered, “Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests.

    Surely Jesus was not saying that what David did in breaking the law was ok?!?!

    5Or haven’t you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent? 6I tell you that one greater than the temple is here. 7If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’you would not have condemned the innocent. 8For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”

    9Going on from that place, he went into their synagogue, 10and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, they asked him, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?”

    11He said to them, “If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? 12How much more valuable is a man than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.”

    13Then he said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” So he stretched it out and it was completely restored, just as sound as the other. 14But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus.

    I wonder if this is something for us today, doing good on the sabbath is ok even if it breaks the laws of the sabbath, could the same be true for the law of the pattern?

  123. The Lord’s reference to David was an ad hominem attack. The Pharisees revered David, yet David clearly did that which was unlawful.

    What Jesus’ disciples were doing WAS lawful:

    Deut. 23: 24 If you enter your neighbor’s vineyard, you may eat all the grapes you want, but do not put any in your basket. 25 If you enter your neighbor’s grainfield, you may pick kernels with your hands, but you must not put a sickle to his standing grain.

    He showed that what the priests did would technically be wrong if it weren’t for the direct commandment of God that allowed them to fulfill their duties upon the Sabbath.

    If the Pharisees had really known the law, they would have known that what Jesus’ disciples did in no way violated the law. They also failed to understand that Jesus is Lord, and if he chooses to do good on the Sabbath He can, for He is Lord of the Sabbath. To even suggest that healing by speaking a few words constitutes “work” that violated the Sabbath is absurd. They were seeking any excuse to kill Jesus they could find.

  124. I grew up in the Church of Christ and am a member. I know many, including my family, who believe the Holy Spirit literally indwells in Christians. Members who deny the direct indwelling usually don’t understand how God’s Spirit can indwell and yet we sin. How can we understand how the Holy Spirit indwells when we don’t even know how our own spirit dwells in us? It is wrong to put limits on God’s Spirit and power. The creator is able to do all!

    Romans 8:9-11
    9However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
    10If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
    11But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, (He who raised (Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies ]through His Spirit who dwells in you.

  125. Here are some more versus that the spirit indwells:
    1 Cor 6:19;
    19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?

    Eph 1:13-14
    ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto the redemption of God’s own possession, unto the praise of his glory.

    The Holy Spirit is a comforter, Counselor, we are sealed with the Spirit as a mark of salvation,intercedes for us, and
    helps us in our weakness—Romans 8:26-27

    1 Corinthians 12:3 “Therefore I make known to you that no man speaking by God’s Spirit says, “Jesus is accursed.” No one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” but by the Holy Spirit.”

    John 14:15-17
    “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper,to be with you forever, 17even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.

    If the Holy Spirit indwells only by the word than the lost cannot hear the word because John 14:15-17 clearly says that the world couldn’t receive the gospel and therefore we would all be lost. So it only makes since that there IS the direct indwelling of THE HOLY SPIRIT in Christians.

  126. John 14:15 states “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.” As a member of the Church of Christ I have concluded that all who submit to baptism are saved. “for the remission of sins” should be translated “unto” or “will receive.” For the remission of sins is not a command but a result just like added to the church. I do believe that baptism is necessary for salvation. How can unsaved sinners fully understand all concepts of the gospel? It is impossible. Christians continue to mature in Christ until death. The main point is, “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.”

  127. Great points, Stacie!! 🙂 As one who has also been raised and is still part of the body called the “Church of Christ”-I, too have experienced that many believe and acknowledge that the Holy Spirit dwells WITHIN us-based on those verses and examples of the Spirit guiding us. God did promise us He would leave that seal on us, and I am so grateful for it!! 🙂

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