Eternal Security, or Perseverance of the saints, maintains that none who are truly saved can be condemned for their sins or finally fall away from the faith.
Discuss.
By the way – please avoid cutting and pasting arguments of other writers from other sites to prove your argument. If you want to cut and paste a bit here and there, that is fine, just put the URL where you got the info. You can also reference another URL, too, if you want us to go there to see what that writer says. Thanks!
Thanks to Katherine for the heads up on this video. Thoughts?
Over at http://www.topix.com, at a conversation going on between a few Church of Christ fundamentalists and a few other folks, we had a list of some Very Interesting Questions posted for our Church of Christ friends to answer. I put them here for your perusal, and invite you to put them on your list of questions to ask your own Church of Christ friends.
1) I was baptized at age 10 for the forgiveness of my sins (in a Church of Christ) what sins were I capable of committing at this point in my life? If I died before my baptism would I have gone to Hell?
2) Where does the age of accountability for proper baptism appear in the Bible? Please provide book, chapter, and verse
3) Is Matthew 28:19 proper baptismal instructions? Or did Jesus make an incomplete statement?
4) Would you consider keeping another man as a slave to be sin?(Please keep in mind 1 Timothy 6:1-2, Ephesians 6:5)
5) Is the apostle Paul accountable for his false teachings on “faith only” salvation in the books of Romans and Ephesians?
6) Would Paul be allowed to serve as an Elder in your Church? Jesus is called the “high priest” for the Jewish audience in the book of Hebrews. Doe he fit the criteria to be an elder of a congregation?
7) Is it better for a man not to marry? Would a preacher be more effective if he was not married? Should Paul’s thoughts on the subject be considered advice? inference? command?
8) Is the Bible silent on the following issues? song leaders, song books, choirs, paid preachers, church supported colleges, proper dress attire in a worship assembly, Wed. night assemblies, organs, communion being part of a worship service, clapping in a church service, indoor baptisms, sitting and standing in unison during a service, proper methods of baptisms, singing songs written by members of differing denominations, women singing in a church service (are they silent?), youth ministers, church secretaries, and church buildings?
9) If my eyes are causing me to sin should I gauge them out? Should this be taken literally? Why or why not? Is this instruction you would give another Christian?
10) How many times does the Book of James mention Baptism as a necessary work? Does it mention it at all? What is the main point of the Book of James?
11) How many times did Jesus address what proper worship in public assembly consists of?
12) Where in the Bible (please provide book, chapter, and verse) is the Lord’s Supper set to consist of grape juice and crackers that must be observed every Sunday morning.
13) Please provide book, chapter, verse that bans alcohol drinking as well as dancing.
14) Where does the idea of being “silent where the Bible is silent” appear in the Bible (please provide book, chapter, verse)
15) Is gluttony a sin? If so, is eating fast food a sin; or is overeating fast food a sin?
16) Was the original Lord’s Supper unscriptural occurring as a Passover dinner on a Thursday night?
17) I have never seen any Church today conform to the clear pattern of practice set in Acts 2:44-45. Why is this clear example ignored?
18) Why was Jesus baptized?
19) Did Jesus have any fears or doubts about his role? If he did would this make him “imperfect” or does it display his humanity?
20) Who did Jesus butt heads with the most? Why?
21) What does “infallible” mean to you? Please provide the book, chapter, verse that the Bible claims to be infallible.
22) Where did the Bible come from? Who decided what books it should consist of? Were the men that decided this Christians? Was God guiding them?
23) When did the church fall into apostasy? Has there been a time when the Church of Christ did not exist? Has there been a time when it was united?Thanks to “DMH” for the list of questions.
I’ve been thinking about this question a lot recently, because it takes a bit of my time which could be used elsewhere, and it has since I started it a few months ago. If you just happened upon the blog, and wondered why someone would take the time to blog about the teachings of three men who nobody knows anyway, I suppose that would be a valid question.
To be concise, it is because I have seen the damage that these men do to people, and it makes me pretty angry. Now, I don’t mean that they set out to damage people – I think they think they are really “serving the Lord” (Rom 12:11). However, Jesus talks pretty seriously about being able to recognize people who are teaching Truth by their fruit (Matt 7:16). Let’s look at some of the fruit from Johnny Robertson, James Oldfield and Norm Field’s work in particular, and the work of the fundamentalist Churches of Christ in general.
The Mysterious Case of Jason Hairston
I mentioned Jason’s blog in my last posting, and I need to talk just a bit more about this, because it’s such a glaring example of rotten fruit. Now, you need to understand that my thoughts on this are not clear, because none of these men have come clean in public about the situation. My understanding from sources close to the subject is that Jason is really have trouble with his spiritual identity after his time spent with these fundamentalist Church of Christ men.
Unfortunately, this is not an exclusive result for exposure to men like this – just go over and take a look at the website for ex-church of Christ folks – click this link – you’ll see plenty of people who have been damaged in similar ways to Jason – some to the point of renouncing belief in God altogether.
If, by starting a blog like this that questions their teachings and examines their doctrine outside of their control helps even one person to NOT leave God as a result of confusion sown while under their influence, it will be worth the time spent.
Holding Them Accountable When Nobody Else Will
Now, given, this would be a task more easily achieved if the men would actually participate in our discussions, but I do my best to do this without them. I haven’t figured out the way to be the most organized about this, because over the past few months of study, I’ve realized that there are some pretty big errors in their teaching – mostly dealing with the bonds they put on others and themselves. And even their arguments for “speak where the Bible speaks, silent where the Bible is silent” (is that a creed?) are inconsistent when you put them under the microscope. Look at my discussions with Nova about Joshua and the city of Jericho to see an example of what I mean.
Looking for the Galatians 5:22 Fruit
Now, you really need to get into a deep study of what the Law meant to the readers of the NT, but I think it’s important to say that you hear these men talk quite a bit about the restrictions placed on Christians with the NT, but you very rarely hear them (at least on their TV programs) talk about the following “Galatians 5:22 Fruit”:
A) It’s not a “Galatians Fruit”, but being FREE in Christ (occurs 59 times in Scripture) – John 8:32; 36; Rom 6:18; Gal 4:31; 5:1; etc.
B) The Joy of the Lord (occurs 165 times) – 1 Pet 4:13; 1 John 1:4; Gal 5:22; etc.
C) Hope (occurs 130 times) – 1 Pet 3:15; Heb 3:6; 2 Thess 2:16; etc.
D) Peace (occurs 429 times) – Mark 4:39; Luke 2:14; 2 Cor 13:11; etc.
You could go on.
Now, I can almost hear their rebuttal – and let me answer before it’s stated: men, I know that freedom without law is chaos, and that Scripture does have very serious things to say about the way we should conduct ourselves. That being said, however, I would think that a church that was truly living in the Truth (especially to the point of broadcasting that everyone else is living in error) would have a better grasp of the balance between the two.
If you go onto the websites of these men and watch some of their video clips, you’ll see that there is NOT a balance. The impression I get from watching these men is that they get their biggest joy from putting other people in their place. This is part of the reason that Johnny Robertson lost the debate with Armando Deloa. If he’d have demonstrated more of the character of God and less of the wrath, his arguments would be much more compelling. But, after interacting with Shawn Paden over at http://www.topix.com, I’m beginning to wonder if it is possible for these men to be able to show grace and mercy – or even to admit that they are wrong about something – not even doctrinally, but personally. That’s a big Matt 7:16 warning.
Well, that’s enough for now. I hope that it helps folks understand. Again, I don’t have a beef with all Churches of Christ – just these sorts who claim that if you aren’t in the church where they assemble, or if you aren’t in a church that teaches exactly what they teach, then you aren’t in the Lord’s Church.
As always…
Sola Dei Gloria!
Nathan
“Providing for honest things, not only in the sight of the Lord, but also in the sight of men.” 2 Corinthians 8:21
It’s taken Johnny Robertson and company several months to do, but Jason Hairston’s old blog has finally been taken offline. You can still see the link on the blogs of Johnny Robertson, Norm Fields and James Oldfield, but it now goes to a “website currently unavailable” page.
Are they finally acknowledging that Jason has stopped teaching their doctrine? They’ve tap danced around his leaving for such a long time, and we’ve talked about it here on this blog several times, and we’re still waiting for an explanation of what happened. I figure we’ll never get that. I still contend that Johnny owes the community an explanation for Jason’s leaving considering that he spent hours and hours preaching to us each week, but I can understand if Johnny wants to hush it up and pin it on Jason as some sort of failure on his part. After all, Johnny has an image to keep up with supporters like Shawn Paden!
Speaking of Shawn, if you go over and look at the website for Royse City Church of Christ you’ll see that Shawn still a very prominent link up to an article that Jason wrote about Baptists and the Church of Christ. But, according to sources close to Jason, he doesn’t believe what he taught when he wrote that article. And yet, Shawn keeps it up. Interesting! Not quite honest, but interesting nonetheless.
So, readers of this blog, because we don’t know what’s happened to Jason (thanks for nothing, Johnny), let’s all agree to be praying for him, that he would find true freedom in Christ, and that he wouldn’t forsake his First Love. (Rev 2:4)
And Jason, if you ever read this blog, know that we really are praying for you, friend!
Nathan
Answering the Church of Christ 