One of our favorite blogs (thanks in part to that great youtube video of the Johnny show) is Chris Knight’s. He gave us the heads up to a very interesting question that he would like one of our three TV hosts to address. Blog regulars should go over and contribute to that conversation as well.
238 thoughts on “An Open Question to Johnny, Norm and/or James”
Is Chris in an iron lung also? Is anyone else here in an iron lung?
Does that good woman’s extraordinary circumstances negate the necessity of baptism for those of us that are physically able to be immersed?
On May 29, 2008 at 8:23 am coreydavis Said:
“Is Chris in an iron lung also? Is anyone else here in an iron lung?
Does that good woman’s extraordinary circumstances negate the necessity of baptism for those of us that are physically able to be immersed?”
-I knew this was coming and agree with Corey, but the point still could be made, does Gods grace cover cases such as these? And as Corey stated does that good woman’s extraordinary circumstances negate the necessity of baptism for those of us that are physically able to be immersed?”
Randy,
I think the point is that we don’t know. I’ve said over and over that we will have to trust in the mercy and justice of God for those people. Is God not just? Is He not fair? Whatever He decides in those cases we be just that – just and fair.
But for us, it would be wrong to expect God’s grace to cover disobedience. By disobedience I mean this: if you are able to be immersed in the Biblical fashion (for the remission of sins, prior to salvation) and you don’t do it, you are not being obedient.
What I see in Chris’ post is that if God would save her not being baptized He would save everyone who rejected baptism as it is recorded in scriptures. It is grasping at straws.
We are told in Scripture that God is “no respecter of persons.”
Why then would He change the criteria for salvation for one individual and not for everyone else?
Per the doctrine of the kind of “Church of Christ” that is advocated by Robertson, Oldfield and Fields, Odell could not possibly have been granted such a dispensation by God on account of her condition, and thus did not have salvation. It wasn’t even POSSIBLE for her to have salvation per their stance, because to attempt it would be to invite certain physical death.
Are they really going to come out and say that she SHOULD have been baptized by immersion, if she wanted to be saved, even though she would probably have not survived even being brought to the water?
What about people in other circumstances, who likewise come to repentance and their need for forgiveness, who cannot for whatever reason be water baptized either? IS GOD GOING TO ALLOW THEM TO GO TO HELL BECAUSE OF THAT?
Again, I have to wonder why Robertson, Oldfield and Fields make themselves so big and God so very small.
One thing that is a must is to know their doctrine that is taught by the church of Christ. There are tons of free courses online from many church of Christ churches. I would suggest anyone wanting to better equip yourself, study what all is taught by them. This is one reason I stopped watching them on TV too – most callers call in and have no clue what they( cofC ) teach and almost always set themselves up for the fall. I would take the doctrines primarily taught on their shows and study them from their POV and then others POV, Also study some history; read books from authors who once believed and taught as Johnny. Here are a few:
Baptism
Lords Supper
Original sin
Election
Predestination
Faith Only
Mechanical Instruments in church
cofC hermeneutics ( CENI ) Law of silence / speak where the bible speaks
Tithing
This is some things, but it’s a must to know their teachings/doctrine as well as they do, because they know yours just as well, and honestly, better that most church goers know their own denomination beliefs.
Jesus said in Luke 12: 47 And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.
So there you have Jesus saying that different things are expected of different people. That woman has not been given “much” in the way of physical health, so she cannot be held accountable in the same way as one who has been given “much” in the way of physical health.
The problem is that you want to lump everyone together. Jesus didn’t put us all in the same categories and neither should we. If you are physically able to be immersed for the remission of sins then God expects that of you.
You seem to think that teaching the Biblical necessity of baptism somehow makes God “small”. It does not. To say that because of rare exceptions you don’t have to obey God makes Him “small”. When you say you don’t have to obey because someone else couldn’t obey you deny the gift of good health that God has given you, making God’s commandment to be baptized for the remission of sins “small” and your desire to do what you want “big”.
“So there you have Jesus saying that different things are expected of different people. That woman has not been given “much” in the way of physical health, so she cannot be held accountable in the same way as one who has been given “much” in the way of physical health.”
You’re now saying that God DOES extend His grace to some? What about those who might not come to have faith until after a long and physically healthy life, but for various reasons are also not capable of being water baptized?
What about the teenage girl that I once knew who had a very profound and moving salvation experience, and before the night was over was in a car accident and killed instantly, before she had a chance to be baptized? SHE wasn’t physically infirm either. But she didn’t have a chance at baptism either. Is she in Hell today?
I wasn’t baptized until two years after I was saved. If I were to have died in the interim, would I have gone to Hell because of that?
I have another friend who has been a believer in Christ for a very long time. She has not been baptized yet. She is waiting, and I can understand why (and those reasons aren’t anybody else’s business). She witnesses to everyone she meets simply because of the love of Christ that she shows in her actions. She *could* be baptized. She doesn’t NOT believe in baptism, but as I’ve said, she has good reasons not to be baptized at the present time. Who is ANYONE on this Earth to tell her that she is in dire danger of being lost forever unless she is “baptized”? What’s the difference between her being “baptized” in a church and dunking herself in a bathtub whenever she likes, anyway? Or does salvation ONLY come from a baptism that is (a) by immersion and (b) with the “right words” spoken by someone doing the baptism?
Do you know what that is, Corey? That’s ascribing a power to a physical act, that is not “powerful” in and of itself at all. Some might call that “magic”. I call it a form of Gnosticism.
I would even say that it is a kind of idolatry. We are *supposed* to worship Christ. We are *not* supposed to worship baptism. Christ alone can save us. Works, even those done in His name, can never save us.
Lee,
You’re doing the same things that Chris was doing – throwing out extraordinary circumstances and trying to apply them to everyone. Are you saying that because a minuscule amount of people physically cannot be immersed that the overwhelming majority that can shouldn’t? Did you not read Jesus’ words that more will be expected of those that are given more?
You said: I wasn’t baptized until two years after I was saved
Scripturally speaking it is impossible for you to be saved and not baptized. Baptism puts us into Christ (Gal 3:27). If you were somehow saved without baptism you were saved outside of Christ.
To insist upon baptism for the remission of sins is neither worship of the act nor idolatry. It is simply following God’s word. Christ saves, not baptism, but He has promised that He will give salvation to those that follow His commandments – of which baptism is one. Do you insist that a person should repent prior to salvation since that is what the Bible teaches? If so, are you now worshiping repentance, or are you just teaching what God has said? People like me seem to put such a great deal of emphasis on baptism because man-made religions have tried to take it out of God’s word and His plan. You cannot show me where I’ve ever said to worship baptism. Furthermore, baptism is never called a work in scriptures. Faith, on the other hand, IS called a work by Jesus. No action or work will save us, only Christ will, but He has only promised salvation to those that obey all His commandments – not just the ones we like or that some church may teach.
Corey,
This is where the very peculiar doctrine of these self-professed “Church of Christ” folks breaks down, and why I can not only believe what they preach but find what Robertson, Oldfield, Fields and the few others to be downright heretical…
…because their doctrine is OBSESSED with legalism, to a degree that I wonder if the Pharisees would have even found ridiculous.
NOT ONCE have I heard a single frazzlin’ word from these people about the LOVE of Christ! It is ALWAYS about following through with ordnances, like baptism. But they are so fixated with the ritual that they have completely lost all understanding of the REASON for the ritual. And the ritual itself was never, EVER supposed to take the place of sincere love and devotion to God. This was true even as far back as the Old Testament.
I’ve listened to Robertson, Oldfield and Fields *many* times. They are men completely bereft of any preaching of the love of God. THEIR “God” is a grim-faced, flint-eyed drill sergeant who will do a lot worse than make you drop and give him a hundred pushups if the “recruits” don’t toe the line.
They are preaching another Christ. A Christ so over-adorned with the trappings of scripture itself, that he is completely unrecognizable from any other idol of this world.
What makes Christ different from all others? His love and His mercy. If the lost of this world can not see that, then why SHOULD they believe in Christ at all?
Robertson, Oldfield and Fields do their darndest to compel others to believe in religion. But they do nothing at all to persuade others to believe in Christ.
Let me point you all to the Old Testament, which was “written for our learning”. Specifically Numbers 21:
6The LORD sent fiery serpents among the people and they bit the people, so that many people of Israel died.
7So the people came to Moses and said, “We have sinned, because we have spoken against the LORD and you; intercede with the LORD, that He may remove the serpents from us.” And Moses interceded for the people.
8Then the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live.”
9And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived.
Now, certainly among all those people there was at least one person who was blind. What if that blind person was bitten? They couldn’t look upon the serpent. By the rationale presented here no one would have to look upon the serpent for healing because of the one who physically couldn’t look upon the serpent. Do you think a man who was bitten would have lived if he said, “so-and-so can’t look upon the serpent so I don’t have to” or do you think he would have followed the Lord’s commandment and let the Lord worry about the blind man?
Corey I don’t think I am too far off from your beliefs
I agree with you that baptism is important and I feel that it is an act of obedience and maybe I would even say that yes it’s a “command”.
The part where I guess I drift away from your POV is that insisting that baptism is FOR the remission of sins. I disagree, Jesus’ blood paid for our sins, not baptism. And its belief in Him that delivers us, not the immersion of water. But that doesn’t mean I disagree with you that a person needs to be baptized and that in doing so one is following the commands of scripture… because I would strongly agree with that position.
“No action or work will save us, only Christ will, but He has only promised salvation to those that obey all His commandments – not just the ones we like or that some church may teach.”
Corey, then you are going to Hell too. So am I. So is EVERYONE alive or who ever lived, because NOBODY can perfectly obey His commandments.
I can’t even recall from scripture that Christ COMMANDED water baptism at all. He was baptized of course, and He told His disciples when He ascended to baptize the world “in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit” but that does NOT in any way indicate physical baptism with water. He meant baptism in His Word, which brings salvation… and NOT liquid H20.
“Scripturally speaking it is impossible for you to be saved and not baptized. Baptism puts us into Christ (Gal 3:27). If you were somehow saved without baptism you were saved outside of Christ.”
Corey,
I don’t know any other way to say this, other than: you’re full of it.
And you are committing a terrible twisting of scripture also.
I was baptized in a Baptist church, by the way. Guess I’m damned no matter what, huh?
Actually Chris
in Acts, Jesus even says to the apostles that though they were once baptized with water, they would not be baptized with the Holy Spirit but I have been told several times that that word was only mean for the apostles and was only speaking of pentecost and does not apply beyond that moment or to anyone else
of course I would disagree
it’s interesting to me how anyone can discern what scripture applies and which doesn’t… the picking and choosing of scripture is what has left the church in shambles to begin with
they would NOW be baptized… not “NOT”…
sorry for the error
Chris,
Just FYI regarding Corey – theologically he is on the same page as the three TV guys, but character-wise, he (at least on this blog) acts very Christlike.
Just wanted to alert you to that before you put him into the same category as our three lovable TV hosts.
Carry on, all.
Nathan
Katie wrote: I disagree, Jesus’ blood paid for our sins, not baptism
Actually, we agree. The question then is how do we get into Jesus to contact that precious blood? The answer is in Galatians 3:27 – we are baptized into Him. To say that we aren’t baptized for the remission of sins is in direct conflict with Acts 2:38.
Chris wrote: I can’t even recall from scripture that Christ COMMANDED water baptism at all.
Mark 16:16. John 4:1. Every reputable religious scholar acknowledges that the baptism of the Great Commission is water baptism. This is evidenced in Acts 8 where Philip and the eunuch went “down into the water”. There is no scriptural evidence that the baptism Jesus commanded is a baptism “into His word”.
Chris wrote: I don’t know any other way to say this, other than: you’re full of it.
Well, thanks for your civil conversation. That is a very kind thing of you to say.
On May 29, 2008 at 10:26 am coreydavis Said:
Katie wrote:
I disagree, Jesus’ blood paid for our sins, not baptism
Actually, we agree. The question then is how do we get into Jesus to contact that precious blood? The answer is in Galatians 3:27 – we are baptized into Him. To say that we aren’t baptized for the remission of sins is in direct conflict with Acts 2:38.
Chris wrote:
I can’t even recall from scripture that Christ COMMANDED water baptism at all.
Mark 16:16. John 4:1. Every reputable religious scholar acknowledges that the baptism of the Great Commission is water baptism. This is evidenced in Acts 8 where Philip and the eunuch went “down into the water”. There is no scriptural evidence that the baptism Jesus commanded is a baptism “into His word”.
Chris wrote:
I don’t know any other way to say this, other than: you’re full of it.
Well, thanks for your civil conversation. That is a very kind thing of you to say.
– like I pointed out above, please study what is taught by the cofC, before trying to debate the issues with Corey or any others. Everything Corey stated can not be refuted…but feel free to try…but first know what they teach and why
I don’t want to sound like a broken record, but cofC preachers know every single argument you have. They are not ever caught off guard, that’s not bragging on anyone, just the facts. The only way to even come close is to study their views just as much as they have…
ok, whos next? 🙂 Try and refute this, Corey is not like our guys here, he will be nice about it, but good luck
The big thing that they always do is put people on the defensive. And Randy’s right – because most of us outside of their doctrinal viewpoint don’t know what they believe other than maybe that they don’t play musical instruments and demand baptism.
But, actually, the best thing to do is always bring the conversation back around to Jesus.
Always.
Randy,
The things you’re saying sound like I’m here looking for a fight – I’m not. I’m not Johnny. When he talks to someone and can’t convince them of the truth, he still feels he has won because he won an argument. When I talk to someone and can’t convince them of the truth I feel I’ve lost because I couldn’t get through.
I’m not here to show off or sharpen my debate skills – I’m here because I have a great love for all who desire to know and love Christ. I’m not a paid preacher. I’ve never been to preaching school and the only religious education I’ve had is a religious studies class in college. I just love God’s word – all of it – and I want to do all I can to help others who are sincere but need some help.
Corey, you are taking me completely wrong. I am just telling the folks who disagree with our views that they need to know the teachings and doctrine of cofC better, thats all. Trust me, I am do not mean things as you suggest. Its hard to covey things on here at times…easy to misread what people are saying or to read more into it…anyways, you are wrong about my motives…k
Randy,
I know what you meant, but I am concerned with how someone else might view your statements. Like you said, it is hard to convey your thought sometimes on the internet.
I do think that this issue of baptism needs to be put out and explained. I would like to ask those who oppose the cofC view to explain what is so hard about seeing the connection between baptism and forgivenss. Is this something they view as merit/work? I tried for 6 months to get around this and never could, I welcome anybody else for their input and reasons why the coofC is wrong on the doctrine of baptism, because I just dont see a way around it…
Just as you, the question on this post is one we both have heard. I knew the answer and I doubt Johnny will reply to this. The btm line isnt about people who CANT follow the teachings on baptism, but to the people who can. Katie, Ric, Lee, Chris, please explain why this can not be so, why can baptism not be connected to being forgiven. Please note, I consider you guys friends and whatever we disagree on will not change that nor will I ever act like Johnny towards you. I just think we all would do well to fully examine both sides.
Corey, email my yahoo, something I need to ask thats not related to the blogs
Randy for me, my biggest “beef” with the whole baptism discussion is that it appears to me that a greater emphasis is placed on the ordinance of baptism or the act of baptism than is on Jesus. I read the verses that are quoted so often to support the CofC POV and I agree with you guys in that baptism is important and I would go so far as to say it is a vital act of obedience. And absolutely, being baptized identifies us with Christ, it’s a physical representation of discarding the old self.
However, when I read other verses (in particular Romans 10:9-10, John 14:6, and even John 3:16)… I find no mention of baptism as necessary for salvation. I believe it to be important but I don’t feel that if a person isn’t baptized that they aren’t saved or that a person isn’t saved until they are baptized. It is my opinion that such a stand places more emphasis on the act of baptism than the act of repentance and reception of forgiveness and the righteousness of Christ.
I don’t know if that is clear or if I rambled. My mind is tired today and so I apologize if I am not being clear.
Katie,
If people didn’t spend so much time trying to eliminate baptism’s role in the plan of salvation no one would be talking about it. If everyone accepted baptism’s role, yet rejected the role of repentance, you’d probably hear a great deal about repentance. Nothing we do compares to what Jesus does, but baptism plays a huge role in the when and where Jesus does His work on us.
As I’ve said many times before, none of the verses you just listed mention repentance, but we know that we must repent prior to God saving us. We know that because we have to take everything God said about our part in the salvation He offers and apply it. Admitting that baptism is part of our role and that it comes prior to salvation in no way negates the role of Jesus. There is no perfect verse that lists all of the things we’re supposed to do.
This is very true Corey “There is no perfect verse that lists all of the things we’re supposed to do.”
I concede that much is quite true.
I wanted to correct myself. My comment at 9:53 am was directed to Chris, not Lee. I was confused by how similar their avatars are. Sorry Lee.
So if I conceded that baptism is a part of the salvation process… would you or anyone else still claim that I am not truly a believer? Because I’ve definitely been told that. I am saying that I believe all that you are saying. I don’t believe that baptism is THE way to salvation, I believe that Jesus is THE way to salvation. And thus I don’t teach baptism, I teach Jesus. And I don’t witness baptism, I witness about Jesus Christ. But it is my understanding that though I believe in Jesus Christ, repented of my sins, received forgiveness, and was baptized that I’m not saved because I wasn’t baptized for the “remission of my sins”… so I basically get told that though I have followed the steps of salvation that the CofC has laid out are necessary, I’m still not saved because I essentially wasn’t baptized for the “right” reason or the “right” way… that’s where my views and beliefs differ extraordinarily and where I see the emphasis being placed more on the immersion in water than the salvation through the blood of Jesus.
And even further, bringing this back to our resident 3 guys…
on Norm’s program with him, I basically laid out for him exactly what I just did on here… and he said that I was not saved because theres no such thing as a sinners prayer (which for the record, I never said anything about a sinners prayer, he is the one that mentioned it and brought it into the discussion).
And it seemed to me that the only reason he could give me for why I was not saved, was because I came to my understanding of Jesus Christ and salvation in a Baptist church and because they have more issues with the Baptist church and spend more of their time attacking them than preaching Jesus… I couldn’t possibly be saved even though I have done EVERYthing they are telling me is necessary for salvation.
I just don’t get it. That’s where they end up looking like pharisees to me and being more concerned with laws and actions than love and grace.
Katie, I tried to get around this as stated eailer, but honestly, I don’t see any way to get aorund the fact that baptism and forgiveness are tied together. I accully view baptism as the believers wedding ceromony. I think Acts chapter 2 really helped me a lot, bacause its clear that the men there had faith in Christ as evidenced by them being hurt, but at this point they asked Peter “what shall we DO? The word DO means action on their part, Peter could have said DO !! ARE YOU KIDDING ME! – you just had faith in Christ through the message I preached, but he didn’t say that. He said to their question, repent AND be baptized unto ( eis ) the remission of sin, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Question: were they forgiven when they had faith in Christ viw the message of Peter? If not, when were they forgiven?
what I’m saying Randy is that I believe that baptism is very much tied together with forgiveness as part of a complete plan of salvation. But I also clearly see and understand that salvation is received through Christ, that’s why Christ Himself said “I am THE way, THE truth, THE life.. no one comes to the father but through me”… not through water, not through special prayers, or powerful messages but Him.
That’s what I’m saying. I’m not taking away from the importance of baptism but asking.. what about Jesus.
And even when I admit that baptism is vital I’m still told that I’m not truly saved.. explain how that is so?
I will tell you what James told me once when I ask this question, he said you cant be baptized right and then go back to a denominational church-wrong church. I guess he was saying you could “obey the gospel” correctly, but then be lost if you went to a denominational church. Maybe Corey can elaborate on this.
and as for your question.
the people didn’t ask “what should we to be forgiven” they said what should we do and Peter responded repent, and be baptized which is the SAME message that pastors all across the nation preach on a weekly basis so this scripture in no way convicts me that I’m in the “wrong” here. Peter doesn’t say “repent and be baptized and if you don’t get baptized you’re still bound for hell”…
Obviously.. the most important part of salvation is the repentance.. the turning from sin and turning towards Christ. Baptism is a physical representation of that and would be why it is vital to follow through as an act of obedience and be baptized. I am not disagree with you guys on this, perhaps I’m not being clear.
Well Randy if that’s so… in my humble opinion then James is lost also because the CofC is still a denomination…. as per the webster’s dictionary defitnion of denomination.
Perhaps… or perhaps *not*… my earlier comment was not one of a Christ-like nature. If it was not then I apologize and if He judges there’s nothing wrong with it then I’ll stand by it.
Corey, it’s true: I don’t know you. But that WAS one of the most ridiculous things that I have ever heard in my life (and I’ve heard ridiculous, believe you me).
My salvation – and anyone elses – depended not one whit on whether I was baptized or not. Believe me, I spent a LOT of time studying the Bible at the time and seeking counsel from those who knew it better than I did… and baptism as a REQUIREMENT for salvation isn’t in there.
As one person told me, if baptism WAS a requirement, it would be a “work” – a physical action – as much as any the Hebrews did in the Old Testament…. which is something that Christ came to DELIVER us from captivity to, not to chain us up to even MORE “work”!
And you don’t know ME, either. You’ve no idea why I wasn’t baptized for two years. How can you possibly make THAT kind of judgment about whether a person is saved or not?
Do these so-called “Church of Christ” people actively go LOOKING for reasons to declare why a person is not saved?
Wouldn’t it be MORE in keeping with Christ’s love and His commandments (the greatest of which IS to love one another) to build up the Kingdom of God rather than be hellbent on tearing it apart?
Again I say: not once have I heard a word of graciousness and love from Robertson and his cohorts. And as Paul taught, if we have love then we have nothing.
Robertson, Oldfield, Fields and others of their camp might as well be labeled false teachers, because they want nothing to do with love of Christ or love of others.
It is honestly mind boggling to me that we could be so close to believing the exact same thing and yet I’m still “wrong”… kwim?
Katie wrote: So if I conceded that baptism is a part of the salvation process… would you or anyone else still claim that I am not truly a believer?
If you did concede that and you were immersed for the remission of sins I wouldn’t doubt you as a believer. I would consider you a sister in Christ. From there, you may do things in worship that are contrary to the word which would cause me to be unable to worship with you. I would ask you to change those things, but I would feel confident that you are saved.
Katie wrote: I don’t believe that baptism is THE way to salvation, I believe that Jesus is THE way to salvation
I agree. Per Galatians 3:27 baptism is the way INTO Jesus when we’ve believed, confessed Him and repented.
Katie wrote: And I don’t witness baptism, I witness about Jesus Christ.
That is interesting when you consider Acts 8: 34The eunuch asked Philip, “Tell me, please, who is the prophet talking about, himself or someone else?” 5Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus.
36As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, “Look, here is water. Why shouldn’t I be baptized?”
Notice that Philip taught him about Jesus and the first thing the eunuch said was, “Look, here is water. Why shouldn’t I be baptized?” This shows us that when we teach Jesus we teach baptism.
Katie wrote: That’s where they end up looking like pharisees to me and being more concerned with laws and actions than love and grace.
That’s the problem I see Katie. People think it has to be one or the other. Look at Matthew 23:23. Jesus condemns the Pharisees for doing the letter of the law, but not having the proper spirit. Jesus says we should do both! We don’t have to pick. I look at Johnny and I see someone with the doctrine, but none of the proper spirit. I look at many people in denominations and I see the proper spirit, but none of the proper doctrine. There is a middle ground and that is where Jesus instructed us to walk.
My understanding of baptism will differ slightly from that of James, Johnny, Norm, even Corey perhaps. I think one can be baptized without “properly understanding” that sins are forgiven at that point and still be forgiven. And, yes, I also believe one could be saved attending another denomination. I know this invites more debate on other issues, but that’s how I understand this for the present time…
Randy,
If you believe that then please explain why the Ephesians in Acts 19 would need to be immersed for a second time. If there is no proper way, or degree of understanding necessary, then what Paul did when he baptized them for a second time was pointless.
Katie,
Baptism is an outward physical sign that we have repented. It’s something we do to show that Christ now dwells within us. But it doesn’t make us saved.
Baptism is like a wedding ring. I’m married, and I wear a gold ring on my left hand as a tangible sign to the world that I am married and united in flesh and spirit with a wonderful wife.
But the ring itself does NOT make me married! And that really is what some people are claiming, isn’t it: that by putting on the ring, I am married and if I don’t have the ring, then I am not married at all.
Marriage itself is a spiritual state (among others) that my wife and I chose to enter into together, and when we were married we stood before many witnesses and made our declaration before God and to each other that we wished to enter into this of our free will and choosing. There was a wedding ceremony, but that too was just an outward sign of an inward condition. The minister had no special powers or anything else on his own that changed the nature of Lisa and myself. The church building did not imbue some new quality within us. The REAL wedding took place in the eyes of God. But for various reasons (including legal) we needed to do this much. And the exchanging of rings was part of our ceremony and commitment to each other. But we would have been just as married if we had no rings to exchange and wear before the world.
Just as I would still be a saved, redeemed and sealed believer in Christ even if I were not baptized to this day.
It is not without reason that we as believers are called the “bride of Christ”. Would Jesus spurn His bride just because she forgot to, or by some other circumstance could not at all, wear her wedding ring?
I can’t find any evidence that He would. Neither will the Church Of Christ In Name Only and its ministers.
Chris, you’ve got a lot of nice words, but I haven’t seen any scriptures to back them up.
On May 29, 2008 at 1:46 pm coreydavis Said:
Randy,
If you believe that then please explain why the Ephesians in Acts 19 would need to be immersed for a second time. If there is no proper way, or degree of understanding necessary, then what Paul did when he baptized them for a second time was pointless.
-They had been baptized of John and not even heard the mesaage of Christ – I do see your point. So that leads to this question, if someone is baptized today “believing upon Christ, but not undersatnding the conection of baptsim and forgivenss, will they be saved”? This is a far cry from Johns baptism, nobody today is baptized under John.
Corey,
There’s been plenty of scripture.
Regardless of whether I cite book, chapter and verse.
Doesn’t make my argument any less valid. Doesn’t it more valid for others if they choose to gloat their knowledge of chapter numbers, either.
I haven’t seen any scripture backing up what the “Church of Christ In Name Only” of Robertson, Oldfield and Fields are preaching about baptism required for salvation, either. Not really.
WHERE in the Bible does it point-blank say that without water baptism, one is not saved?
Seems like such an obligation would have been the focal point of Jesus’ ministry on Earth if it were, would it not? But He never did that at all. And it can’t ever be claimed that He did, either.
Those passages never say they hadn’t heard of Christ. All we know for sure is:
*They were baptized unto repentance (John’s baptism) instead of unto the forgiveness of sins (Jesus’ baptism)
*They didn’t know about the Holy Spirit
“However, when I read other verses (in particular Romans 10:9-10, John 14:6, and even John 3:16)… I find no mention of baptism as necessary for salvation.
Ro 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Katie , I don’t see anything in those verses about repenting! Does that mean we don’t have to ?
True, so must one understand the Holy Spirit before their baptsim is valid…which takes us to the end of Acts 2:38 that is so often left out
Chris wrote: WHERE in the Bible does it point-blank say that without water baptism, one is not saved?
Where does it say point-blank that without repentance we’re not saved? If Jesus said that “he that believes and is baptized shall be saved” that pretty much sums it up.
Chris wrote: Doesn’t it more valid for others if they choose to gloat their knowledge of chapter numbers, either
Quoting scripture to back up what we say is hardly gloating. If faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God, then I would say that without actually hearing or reading God’s word anything else brings about a false faith.
Chris wrote: I haven’t seen any scripture backing up what the “Church of Christ In Name Only” of Robertson, Oldfield and Fields are preaching about baptism required for salvation, either. Not really.
I’m sure any honest person would admit that nearly everything they teach about baptism is followed by book, chapter and verse. I’ve watched enough videos online to know that is true.
Faithful, we have been having a civil conversation, so please keep it this way…ok And you are making points we have already coverd and its not pick on Katie day. We all are just having some peacful chat and want to keep it that way
If you want to get technical Faithful (by the way… so glad you decided to join us today)…
I look at the passage in Romans and can’t see how repentance isn’t a part of that. To confess Jesus as Lord would mean to renounce whatever sin it is in your life that has kept you from Jesus… hmm.. sounds like repentance to me.
I realize it doesn’t say the word “REPENT” but I don’t think it takes a lot of commen sense to understand what it means to confess Jesus as Lord… or does it?
So I can’t talk to Katie Randy?
Thanks Randy… Faithful and Johnny just have a personal vendetta against me as of recently.. no biggie though 🙂 doesn’t hurt my feelings any
Katie,
Confession and repentance are two totally different things. To confess Him is to verbally acknowledge that Jesus is the Son of God, that He is who He said He was.
Repentance is a change of mind followed by a change of actions.
You could easily confess Jesus was the Son of God and never turn from your past sins. There are plenty of people in the world today who acknowledge that Jesus is Christ yet they live sinful lives.
Faithful,I know you haven’t been rude yet, but you tend to take that road, so I just thought Id put up some stop signs.
Why is that when Peter had convinced the people that they had killed the Christ and they ask what to do repenting was one of the things he told them to do then. By your logic they would have already done that.
Ac 2:37 ¶ Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
“Chris, you’ve got a lot of nice words, but I haven’t seen any scriptures to back them up.”
I am far from being a ultra-conservative Church of Christ”er”.
However, scripture, the early church fathers, and history point to baptism as the “entrance” into the faith, into the Church and most importantly into Christ. It is a mute point that I can not believe is still debated. Where many go to far is limiting the grace of God or the desire of the person not baptized.
Whoa whoa whoa!
“Repentance is a change of mind followed by a change of actions… You could easily confess Jesus was the Son of God and never turn from your past sins. There are plenty of people in the world today who acknowledge that Jesus is Christ yet they live sinful lives.”
Corey, are you suggesting that NOT getting baptized is a SIN?!?!?
“Where many go to far is limiting the grace of God or the desire of the person not baptized”
– I agree totally !
Chris wrote: Corey, are you suggesting that NOT getting baptized is a SIN?!?!?
Not being baptized is a direct violation of a direct commandment of God, so yes, it is absolutely a sin.
It does not seem that anyone is saying they are “against” baptism.
There just seems to be some disagreement over method, candidate’s age, and full scriptural meaning.
Matthew 28
18Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
Would anyone say that this is improper baptismal instructions? Or should Jesus have given specific instructions about being mentally aware of redemption, proper age, proper method, etc.
On May 29, 2008 at 2:28 pm coreydavis Said:
Chris wrote:
Corey, are you suggesting that NOT getting baptized is a SIN?!?!?
Not being baptized is a direct violation of a direct commandment of God, so yes, it is absolutely a sin
-Could one be forgiven who does not repent as Peter commanded then to DO ( Acts 2:38 ) if not, they are still in their sins, right. Peter also tied baptism to this by using the word AND…so it seems one would also be in his sins if he refuses baptism as were the Lawyers and Pharisee who refused Johns baptism ( they were said to be rejecting the council of God )
DMH wrote: There just seems to be some disagreement over method, candidate’s age, and full scriptural meaning.
And all of the disagreements boil down to the doctrines of men clouding the word of God.
Method – there is no argument among religious scholars that baptism in the NT is by immersion in water. The word “baptize” in a transliteration, not a translation. The translation is immersion.
Candidate’s age – there is no example of anyone other than an adult being immersed in the NT. The individuals were all old enough to follow the other commandments of belief, confession and repentance.
Full scriptural meaning – again, all of the things baptism does are laid out in scriptures.
I would say that there clearly are some who are “against” baptism.
“I would say that there clearly are some who are “against” baptism.”
Then you say wrong.
It is not at all that there are some who are against baptism. But there are plenty who, not without reason, do not believe in adding on to the completed work of Christ.
As He said, “It is finished.”
And while I have been baptized also and have encouraged fellow believers to take that step, it is not possibly something that validates, ratifies, or otherwise enhances one’s salvation which comes by the grace of God, regardless of our works.
And since you have admitted that you SERIOUSLY believe that not being baptized is a sin… sir, I honestly don’t have anything else to say to you. Because yours is a belief so entirely beyond anything that Christ and His apostles preached, that I doubt anything I could say would make any difference. Never have I met someone who has said that lack of baptism is a dire *sin*.
In fact, I don’t really know how to take you seriously, after stating something like that.
Does this mean that you DO believe that Dianne Odell is not in Heaven because she was never baptized in believer’s baptism by immersion? Because that is the only inescapable conclusion that one can possibly draw from your arguments.
Chris wrote: As He said, “It is finished.”
Correct. Jesus’ role was finished. That doesn’t mean our part is finished or everyone who would be saved was saved at that moment.
Chris wrote: And while I have been baptized also and have encouraged fellow believers to take that step, it is not possibly something that validates, ratifies, or otherwise enhances one’s salvation which comes by the grace of God, regardless of our works.
So are you saying that we aren’t expected to do anything? I’m sure you’d say we’re to believe and repent, both of which I can prove to you with scriptures are works. Please show me a verse where baptism is called a work. (Hint: you can’t)
Chris wrote: Because yours is a belief so entirely beyond anything that Christ and His apostles preached
False. I can show you where Jesus, Peter, Paul and Philip the evangelist all preached baptism. You can’t show me where any of them preached “faith only” or anything of the sort.
Chris wrote: Does this mean that you DO believe that Dianne Odell is not in Heaven because she was never baptized in believer’s baptism by immersion? Because that is the only inescapable conclusion that one can possibly draw from your arguments.
#1: You don’t know if she was baptized or not.
#2: I’ve already explained this here earlier. If you choose not to read it, that is up to you.
I can Corey. Col. 2:11-12….God at work in baptism :)…but yes, youre right, its not a work we do that merits forgivenss. To be honest baptism is the most passive act we DO. Repenting is the hardest…
Thanks for the clarification Randy. What I was saying was show me where baptism is called a work that men do.
What you posted proves my point – baptism’s work is done by God, not man. And yes, I also believe that repentance is the hardest part. Too bad people want to make baptism the hard part.
From my speaking to others, it seems that most people are hung-up on baptism, thinking it to be a work. Okay, baptism is a work, but nobody is saying it merits forgiveness. Repentance is also a work, but again, nobody is saying it merits forgiveness. These are acts of obedient faith, not of works lest we boast. When the leper was ask to dip in the water to be healed, was it power in the water, or was he healed because of his obedient faith? Did he earn his healing by dipping or did he receive his healing by obeying?
When they walked around the walls and the walls fell down, did the walls fall due their feet vibrating the ground, did the walls fall due to their works-walking, or did God cause the walls to fall down upon their obedience – same with baptism, God does the workm we just simply come in faith and do as he says.
Another good study is ( baptized unto Moses ) at what point were they free from the slave masters
If not being baptized is a sin, is it a sin that can be forgiven?
Is improper baptism (i.e. not full immersion, improper candidate) a sin as well? Can it be forgiven?
Is acting upon a misunderstanding or adhering to a differing interpretation of scripture in regards to baptism a sin on the same level as flat out not doing it?
DMH wrote: If not being baptized is a sin, is it a sin that can be forgiven?
Only Christians are promised forgiveness. Since baptism is essential to becoming a Christian I see nothing in scriptures to show how an un-baptized individual (who was physically and mentally able) could be forgiven.
DMH wrote: Is improper baptism (i.e. not full immersion, improper candidate) a sin as well? Can it be forgiven?
If you knowingly are baptized in an improper way (sprinkling, pouring or as an outward sign rather than for the remission of sins) it would be sinful. I would say improper baptism is not really baptism, which takes us back to my first point. Can it be forgiven? See my answer to your next question.
DMH wrote: Is acting upon a misunderstanding or adhering to a differing interpretation of scripture in regards to baptism a sin on the same level as flat out not doing it?
All I can say is that when you’ve been taught, or learn the truth and you reject it, it is sin. What will God do with those who didn’t have a scriptural baptism, but never knew the truth? Again I say, God is merciful and just. His decision will be the final one and it will be just.
“Again I say, God is merciful and just. His decision will be the final one and it will be just.”
Even though I disagree with most of what you have said, I wholeheartedly agree and commend this statement.
Just want to address my last post regarding repentance and Romans 10:9-10.. in that verse it says that “if you confess with your mouth that Jesus IS Lord”…
follow my train of thought.
If the word “Lord” means master, then to confess someone as Lord is more than just saying you believe in someone or something. Confessing that someone or something is Lord is pledging a certain amount of allegiance, saying that this someone/thing is your master.
If prior to Jesus we are sinners, then “sin” is in effect our lord, our master.
So in order to confess Jesus as Lord one must turn from their sin master and turn to Jesus as master, which would be right in line with the definition of what it means to repent.
I agree with you Katie far as them working hand in hand. But, verse 10 holds some truth so often over looked. 9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Notice with the heart man believes UNTO ( eis ) righteousness…in other words toward righteousness. ok, follow the rest of the verse with this in mind. And with the mouth confession is made UNTO ( eis ) salvation. In other words confess is towards salvation, again keep this thought in your head and turn to Acts 2:38 ( same greek word EIS ) Now ask yourslef what did Peter mean by repent and be baptized ( eis ) UNTO towards forgiveness of sins, so can one be forgiven prior to repenting and being baptized?
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
(KJV)
Ac 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Ac 22:8 And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.
Ac 26:15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
(KJV)
In acts 2:37 they BELIEVED they had killed the Chrsit and were told to repent when thay had were convicted. Why were thwy told to do something they had already done according to you?
On May 29, 2008 at 4:36 pm faithful Said:
In acts 2:37 they BELIEVED they had killed the Chrsit and were told to repent when thay had were convicted. Why were thwy told to do something they had already done according to you?
-Who are you addressing Mitch ?
Katie
who else would faithful be talking to? 🙂
I am his and Johnny’s resident baptist du jour… 😉
If baptism doesn’t do what many here are claiming it does. Then, what is it? Simply a symbol? A “rite of passage”? We are so caught up in the “faith only” doctrine, that we simply ignore what Sacred Scripture and the Church universal has always taught concerning baptism (Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Lutherans, Anglicans)
Katie sorry you missed the show tune in tonite i have big surprise for you
10 pm ch 39 or 19 in dville
to all the real people on here
i find it odd that nathan did not let my post go through yesterday that was from a presby site that showed the church of Christ grow 150,000 in 10 years and it was mostly baptist and presbyterians that obey
one was the governor’s wife in KY
whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy nathan
Katie sorry you missed the show tune in tonite i have big surprise for you
10 pm ch 39 or 19 in dville
to all the real people on here
i find it odd that nathan did not let my post go through yesterday that was from a presby site that showed the church of Christ grow 150,000 in 10 years and it was mostly baptist and presbyterians that obey
one was the governor’s wife in KY
whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy nathan
Katie
have a big surprise for you tonite
ch 19 dville 10 James Oldfield then me at 11
Correct to all
I did find a call that came in from the Claudine post
i have called her back now
thanks for that
let you know
you guys let me know what the big suprise is for Katie, and why is this about Katie anyways?
Johnny/Mitch: why do you feel the need to make this about Katie?
On May 29, 2008 at 4:39 pm churchesofchrist Said:
On May 29, 2008 at 4:36 pm faithful Said:
In acts 2:37 they BELIEVED they had killed the Chrsit and were told to repent when thay had were convicted. Why were thwy told to do something they had already done according to you?
-Who are you addressing Mitch ?
On May 29, 2008 at 5:18 pm Mitch Said:
Katie
-We already covered this Mitch. But thanks for you input.
hi chris,
i believe you should be baptised and have been.
please show me where christ said or otherwise
implied that this act of obedience had to be with
the prior understanding that it was for the remission of sin. in fact show me where the apostles said that one must understand this prior to baptism.
thanks lee
Lee, your statement about understanding baptism as the church of Christ is where I stand also. I do agree with their teaching that baptism and forgiveness are connected, but can they prove one must fully/perfectly understand this before God will act….
woohoo, a surprise just for little ol’ me…
yippie skippy
I’ll be busy until 11 watching the season finale of “LOST” 🙂
please let us know on here what your suprise is – as I will not be watching them. I am thinking about watching them again, but if they are still just slamming on people, I will just watch something else other than the Johnny Springer show.
Randy watch LOST with me, it’ll be much more thought provoking that Johnny Springer.
Great discussion, folks.
Johnny, I did post your message. I am not sure why it got caught up in my filter – but you can look back through and you’ll find it. It might be that if you put a link in a comment, then it will get filtered.
Meanwhile, please notice, JR, that the adults were having a good discussion before you reared your head again. Do not, and I mean NOT, get on here and try to distract with your non-relevant nonsense again. If you want to focus on something irrelevant for your broadcast, that’s your business. But I do not want a repeat of the other day on my blog.
Capiche?
By the way, Johnny, three posts were in the filter just now because you misspelled your own name.
Three times.
Please take the advice of others and proofread your posts before you hit “submit comment”.
Thank you.
well lucky for me I guess I don’t get whatever station it is that Johnny is only tonight at 11pm because my cable is Johnny free at 11… oh well
“Only Christians are promised forgiveness. Since baptism is essential to becoming a Christian I see nothing in scriptures to show how an un-baptized individual (who was physically and mentally able) could be forgiven.”
Actually, the Bible DOES NOT PREACH AT ALL that “Christians” are promised forgiveness.
People are forgiven if they are penitent and come to God and ask His forgiveness for their sins.
They are NOT forgiven because they become Christians!
They are also NOT forgiven just because they choose to join with a church through baptism.
They are ESPECIALLY NOT FORGIVEN just because they choose to join with a very peculiar “Church of Christ” or any other denomination.
Don’t you get it? Our notion of so-called “religion” DOES NOT MATTER TO GOD!!! What He is concerned with is whether we seek Him out and ask for His forgiveness. If He wanted mere “Christians” He could have carved them out of rocks.
This is more evidence for the spiritual blindness of Robertson, Oldfield and Fields: that they put down “denominations” so much. That’s ALL they care to see and talk about on their programs. To be born again and take on the new character that is ours in Christ is to PUT TO DEATH the old nature of this world, including the temptation to see others only in the light of whatever “groups” they belong to.
I’ve seen it especially bad from Johnny Robertson. He doesn’t give a flying rat’s butt about *individuals*. He’s too fixated on GROUPS of individuals, and putting them down. Hence this “Church of Christ”‘s obsession with “unity in Christ”… which is NOTHING like the unity that believers are supposed to have.
Wow, quite a good discussion today! I was out most of the day, so I missed it. I will try to throw my 2 cents in later.
But, for now-Katie, I knew we were kindred sisters-I am a Lost fan, too! In fact, I am watching it right now (TIVO)-crazy show!! This is my first season to watch it, and what a ride!!
When someone finds out what Johnny’s surprise is, would you please enlighten us? 🙂
OK, back to regularly scheduled programming…
okay so LOST was crazy last night!! I can’t believe we’ll have to wait until next February to get the next installment!
But I missed the big surprise. I don’t have comcast cable, so I think that’s why I couldn’t find ol’Johnny boy at 11pm. Oh well… no loss.
“Lost” fans here also (my wife and I). I’ve a part in Theatre Guild of Rockingham County’s production of “Children of Eden” and we had practice last night and I kept hoping we could finish early so I could race home and watch the season finale. We got out 10 minutes after 9.
So I got home as fast as I could, and we started watching it from the beginning off the DVR. We fast-forwarded through the commercials. By the 1-hour mark, halfway into the episode, we’d caught up and could watch the second half along with everyone else 🙂
This is gonna be a LOOOOOOOONG 8 months until the next one.
Nice Chris, lol
I got my husband addicted to LOST too, it just drives him nuts that for every question that gets “answered”, a million more questions arise.
Which if you think about it, is kind of how things work on here. We ask questions and we get more questions 🙂
Why is it until February? Don’t new seasons typically begin in the fall? Does it have to do with the writer’s strike for some reason?
Chris wrote: Actually, the Bible DOES NOT PREACH AT ALL that “Christians” are promised forgiveness.
People are forgiven if they are penitent and come to God and ask His forgiveness for their sins.
They are NOT forgiven because they become Christians!
They are also NOT forgiven just because they choose to join with a church through baptism.
Wow. That is completely false. Jesus said that He is the way, the truth and the life and no one comes to the Father except through HIM. That means you must be in Christ (making you a Christian) to have forgiveness. Are you saying that the Jews of today who reject Christ are forgiven if they come to the same God and ask for forgiveness yet reject His Son?
There is no forgiveness without the blood of Christ. If you belong to Christ you are a Christian and you have access to his blood which provides forgiveness.
We don’t join a denomination through baptism. After doing the things God has asked us to do (believing, repenting, confessing and being baptized for the remission of sins) the Lord adds us to His church (Acts 2:47). I joined the Lord’s church (singular) when I obeyed Him, as did all who have obeyed the Lord’s commandments in the way He gave them.
Lee wrote: please show me where christ said or otherwise
implied that this act of obedience had to be with
the prior understanding that it was for the remission of sin. in fact show me where the apostles said that one must understand this prior to baptism.
It is implied because that was the only way it was taught in the Bible. Just because men came along and tried to change the scriptural meaning of baptism doesn’t mean that they are right. I can show you where one apostle (Paul) said that there is a right way of being baptized and demonstrated that knowledge of why we’re baptized matters – in Acts 19 with the Ephesians.
Faithful, one thing I learned early on was how often context is ignored and application made to personal belief/views. I heard Johnny use one verse one night and directed it to people who do not believe as he – I wrote him and his very words were “cant I make application” in others words he was saying he could pull a verse from its context and give his own personal spin. Does he have this right? NO! And if he did, would not others also have this right? Below is the verse he quoted out of context.
“If any man come and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed, for he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.”
Factional proponents have made the term “this doctrine” refer to every traditional teaching around which a party has rallied. As I pointed out to Johnny – John was writing to combat Gnosticism, one of the most dangerous philosophies to threaten the Way in all of its history. It was an attack upon the very foundation of the faith. Johnny has no right to yank this God breathed verse from its context and make it fit his beliefs/views. The verse John wrote was not talking about the Martinsville church of Christ doctrine or any set of opinions that Johnny has. It was clearly referring to Gnosticism and if you study Gnosticism, you will see this does not fit the people Johnny so often condemns.
Nathan said Why is it until February? Don’t new seasons typically begin in the fall? Does it have to do with the writer’s strike for some reason?
Actually ABC decided they wanted LOST to run through 2010 but the writers of LOST said the story line wouldn’t run that long so they have decided to do 2 half seasons… feb ’09 and then feb ’10
It’s ABC’s evil plan to string us along for an extra year.
Corey,
Was Jesus a “Christian”?
Christian means a follower of Christ. How could Jesus be a follower of himself?
You do realize that Jesus was born a Jew, and lived His entire life as a Jew, yes?
You do realize that Jesus did away with Judaism when He gave His life and replaced the law of Moses with His law, yes?
On May 30, 2008 at 8:26 am Chris Knight Said:
Corey,
Was Jesus a “Christian”?
Chris, I dont follow…what are you getting at
Matthew 5:17 – “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.”
I thought you knew scripture, Corey.
Randy,
Corey is strongly implying that one MUST be considered a Christian in order to be saved. When Jesus Himself was never anything other than a Jew.
My point is: things like the names we give to our creeds to not matter, only our faith. Not even the label “Christian” has any meaning to God. Just our faith.
Do you understand the word fulfill? Jesus said that none of the law would pass away until He had fulfilled it. Over and over again Paul condemned the Jewish converts who still clung to the old law. I ask you again, are Jews today who reject Jesus as the Christ able to get forgiveness?
You said: Not even the label “Christian” has any meaning to God. Just our faith.
Again, that is just false. Isaiah 62:2 says:
The nations will see your righteousness,And all kings your glory;And you will be called by a new name Which the mouth of the LORD will designate.
1 Peter 4:16 says:
but if anyone suffers as a Christian, he is not to be ashamed, but is to glorify God in this name.
Corey,
I’ve never heard it seriously argued, ANYWHERE, that Isaiah meant the literal term “Christian” when he wrote that we would be called by “a new name”.
As for Jesus and the fulfillment of the law…
Jesus was pointing out that He had come to fulfill what the law was meant to do in the first place: point people toward their need for God. But through the law, that need had become a system of burdensome rules and regulations that did NOT draw people to God. If anything, it drove them away from Him.
God gave the law so that people might come to Him and they still failed. It illustrated our need for His mercy and grace. And Jesus DID fulfill the law in that respect, and in doing so He did away with the rituals and regulations.
Would you have us go back to the same harsh legalism that the law had turned into?
I’ve already asked twice. Will you answer this question:
…are Jews today who reject Jesus as the Christ able to get forgiveness?
Not any more than some so-called “Christians” who reject Jesus as the Christ by their insistence on legalism as opposed to grace are able to get forgiveness.
Some claim the Jews crucified Him once. But some “Christians” would crucify Him again, it seems…
Just a simple yes or no would suffice. Can a “good” Jew today who denies that Jesus was the Christ obtain forgiveness from God?
You still don’t get it, do you Corey?
GOD DOES NOT CARE ABOUT WHETHER WE ARE “CHRISTIAN” OR “JEW” OR ANYTHING ELSE! HE DOES NOT CARE WHAT WE CALL OURSELVES!!
God is only interested in whether we do seek forgiveness from Him.
In the end, that faith in Him is something that must transcend earthly terminology. To say that we are saved because we are “Christian” or “Church of Christ” is to deny the new creation that we are called to be in Him.
Do you actually think that Heaven is going to be filled with “Christians”? Heaven is for those who love Him, not for those who love an earthly label.
Or maybe you really can’t understand that, and I shouldn’t hold it against you. You only seem willing to grasp the legalism, and not the grace.
You’re the one who doesn’t get it. Since you won’t answer the question it seems clear to me that you believe that even Jews who won’t accept Jesus as Christ can still be forgiven. You are denying Christ when He said that no one comes to the Father except through Him. You can’t get to the Father unless you go through the Son. Period. Grace is promised to the followers of Christ, not the followers of Moses’ law.
I do love a label. I love the name of Christ, and as Peter wrote, I am happy to suffer for that name and I rejoice in it.
You seem to have no idea of what grace really is or who it is for. Heaven is for those that love Him. Those who love Him follow His commandments. It is through obedience to God that we show our love. Love is never expressed to God as merely emotion, it is service, faithfulness and sacrifice. How did God show love? By doing something. He sent His son to die for the sins of the world. You seem to have no regard for that sacrifice as you think that there is salvation to be found outside of it.
On May 30, 2008 at 8:17 am Randy Said: As I pointed out to Johnny – John was writing to combat Gnosticism, one of the most dangerous philosophies to threaten the Way in all of its history.
Sorry guys can’t relate about “Lost” show oh well, maybe its a generational thing. lol Anyway, Randy your reference to Gnosticism caught my attention. I’ve recently did a little research on the Gnostics but not much. I didn’t realize they were referenced in the Bible. The little I know is that “Gnostic” is the Greek word (I think) for “all knowing” or something like that and thus the word agnostic meaning “not knowing.” Anyway, evidently, these folks thoughy they were all knowing about God and basically had everything figured out among a few other odd beliefs they had that I can’t remember right now. I have to say it did make me think of the hyercon c of c mindset I grew up with. Everything known, all figured out, we KNOW, however you DO NOT sort of thing, a simple 5-step plan etc. It made sense to me that Christ or the Apostles would speak against it I just didn’t know they actually did.
Corey,
I don’t believe there is salvation apart from Christ’s finished work on the cross.
I also don’t believe that there is NOTHING we can do on our own, that can earn salvation any more than what Christ has done on the cross.
If I recall correctly, the greatest commandment of all is to love one another. As the apostle John is reported to have said in his advanced age, “If this much is done, then that is enough.”
How is trying to compel others to follow rituals in the name of “obedience” showing love for them at all? That’s not freeing others. That’s just making them slaves to the law, as if they were never free from it to begin with.
You are arguing that no one comes to God without going through Christ and also following the law. But isn’t this subjecting Christ to crucifiction all over again?
I think what it is, is that you aren’t confident enough in your own salvation. Same with Robertson and Oldfield and Fields. So y’all are trying to over-compensate. You hate yourself for how inadequate you feel and so you try to make others feel more inadequate than you.
Corey, you really don’t have faith in Christ’s finished work, do you? And neither do Robertson and the others in the “Church of Christ” around here.
That is why y’all can’t be free to know the joy of His love and grace and mercy. This is why God cannot bless what you do in His name. And indeed, God hasn’t blessed the “ministry” of Robertson, Oldfield, and Fields. They have more than enough money to keep broadcasting, and no doubt some are persuaded to join their church and be baptized or whatever…
But what is the real fruit of the spirit from them?
If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. — 1st Corinthians 13:1-3
This kind of legalism that you and Robertson and the others preach, has not love.
And thus, y’all gain nothing.
NOTHING = ANYTHING in my post above.
Bad grammar is the price you pay for working on three projects late into the night 🙂
Knight said
In the end, that faith in Him is something that must transcend earthly terminology. To say that we are saved because we are “Christian” or “Church of Christ” is to deny the new creation that we are called to be in Him.
transcends earthly terminology”
talking about a gnostic!
Col 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
you kinda got beyond yourself there chris star Wars New York posted ….I’ve a part in Theatre Guild of Rockingham County’s production of “Children of Eden”(look at me everyone I am an actor toooooo!)
Dear Johnny Robertson,
So now that I have your attention, might I ask you again…
How IS what you are doing possibly showing others the love of Christ?
You still haven’t answered that.
And now you are attacking me because I’m a Star Wars fan, of all things?!
You’re acting pretty infantile, dude.
I know it’s you, by the way. I saw where you visited my blog earlier this morning, and spent quite a bit of time looking around on it.
So Johnny, once again: HOW is what you, and Oldfield, and Fields, doing, illustrating the love and grace of Jesus Christ to those who don’t know Him? WHY should the lost of this world look at you guys and be persuaded at all?
You have nothing to show for your work, because it is not motivated in love. You are too enamored with your sense of power and leadership… but if you have not love, then these things are utterly worthless.
Why do you make yourself so big and God so very small, Johnny?
By the way Johnny, you’re invited to come see the Theatre Guild of Rockingham County’s production of “Children of Eden”. Performances are June 20-22 and June 27-29 at Rockingham Community College. Tickets are $10 for adults. More information is on the Guild’s website at tgrc-nc.com
Among the themes of “Children of Eden” are love and forgiveness. Maybe you could learn something from it.
Chris I’ved seen your post and so called logic. It’s rediculous. I feel sorry for you . With that type of use of logic you must have a very remedial manual type of job that doesn’t require you to exercise your mind very much. Maybe working cross word puzzles or something like that would help you stimulate your brain. It will be painful at first but it will pay off. Hang in there
from Mr. Answer to faithful:
I would suggest that you refrain from such sorts of comments. It doesn’t help your credibility on this board or elsewhere. Please keep your comments civil, and mature.
Thank you.
Actually, I’m self-employed. Doing video production and filmmaking. Also get asked to consult on various cases from time to time.
That is amazing
Another great and uplifting post from faithful.
Actually, his is one of the most logical posts I have read and he speaks MUCH truth!! You have asked some great questions, Chris. I wish they would actually answer them, because I have wondered much of the same.
I think one the biggest problems is that their ultimate goal is not to show people the love of Christ or glorify God; but to feed their own egos and agendas. That is the sad part.
“faithful”, you are the real one I feel sorry for because you are under the spell of the puppet master.
Here’s a question for faithful, TD, Corey, Johnny, Norm, James or any other person who agrees with their doctrine:
Do you folks teach/believe that one must believe and obey all of the New Testament writings in order to be saved?
Matt 11:16 little children,
I forgot to post this when I saw Chris pathetic choice of subjects.
this is from a local news paper in her home town Chris
and I hope you all remember how TERRIBLE Johnny was when he used the death of the boys in Henry Co to teach the error of the Methodist
People from the community remembered stories told of Dianne’s life through the years. When Dianne was able to be out of the iron lung for three or four hours at a time, she was baptized at age 13 in the bathtub at home, against her doctor’s recommendations. She said she knew such joy to be born again.
Let me see if I can think of all the bad things everyone said about me using that
that goes for you then Chris
But really I appreciate you helping our community to see the level of conviction that comes from a TRUE believer. Even an Iron lung could not prevail against her willingness to obey her Lord.
Did someone say “in Alaska it toooo cold” to be baptized
I remember baptizing a young man in shark infested waters of iKiribati Central Pacific
Happy hunting obe one
you will have to try harder than this
are you still going to call in?
If not Corey will get you (he lied Corey)
are you all still searching for some instance where a person cannot be baptized?
it must be really tough on you all to be proved WRONG all the time.
I tell you this is fast becoming my favorite site.
Chris you are the best
our youtube going out to praise Diane (since you brought her up) is a great shout out to how the Devil really is stupid.
Diane was the # one google name yesterday. How well do you think you question being read on my show will do?
It may get you in the New York times again as the most unkind person alive.
Corey
why dont you sit out for a while instead of always compromising?
I knew you would wimp out on that question as soon as it showed up.
Don’t you know what Heb 1:3 teaches Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
God’s word will be upheld.
Did yu think we would take a hit from the likes of Chris Knight when we teach the glorious gospel of the King.
You are hurting the cause
in case you tuned in late here is Chris horrible pathetic use of Diane Odell’s memory to try and get him off on the judgment day for telling everyone they don’t need to be baptized
Chris said earlier; regarding Diane Odell’s passing;
“I’m fairly certain that given her condition, that Dianne was never baptized. There’s no way it could have been done without killing her, most likely. At least she was never baptized by immersion, which is what you guys claim all the time is an absolute obligation in order to have salvation. I’ve even heard you claim, on numerous occasions, that if a person comes to believe in Christ but is not baptized before death, that such a person is damned forever.”
Johnny, James, and Norm: Are you really prepared to go on live television and say that it is with 100% conviction that you believe that God did not allow Dianne Odell into His kingdom yesterday morning, all because it was impossible for her to be water baptized? Or might you possibly even argue, per your logic, that Dianne Odell should have left her iron lung and risked water baptism if she wanted salvation? Because that is what you are claiming, whether you want to admit it or not.
I’m planning on calling some or all of you live on the air to ask you that, if you aren’t willing to provide an answer in any other way. If you won’t take my phone call, then maybe Charles Roark will let us debate the matter live on WGSR. Is that an open challenge? You bet it is.
So what’s your take on it, Johnny and James and Norm: Are you seriously ready to condemn such a person to Hell with your legendary zealousness?
But I’ve no doubt that Dianne is in the presence of the Lord that she loved, and for Whom she shared that love toward others in her earthly life. That is the beautiful thing about a God Who has abundant grace and mercy.
Thanks again Chris for helping the Lord’s people!
Chris , I’m curious what denomination are you a part of?
Johnny,
Your spitefulness… and your eager to be spiteful… destroys whatever testimony you could possibly have.
Haven’t you ever READ or LISTENED to your own words?
If Dianne Odell was baptized, then I am happy that she was able to do that. I am happy that *anyone* would choose to be baptized as a sign of their commitment to follow Christ.
But baptism is still not a requisite for salvation.
And your gloating about how she was baptized does not change that at all.
In fact, your attitude now that we know she was baptized proves that you are a much MORE hateful “Christian” than you’ve ever shown us before.
It proves to us that you don’t even value baptism for salvation more than you value baptism as an opportunity to screech out to the world “HEY I’M JOHNNY ROBERTSON AND I’M BETTER THAN YOU!”
You serve a “king” all right, Johnny. You serve the god of this world. And I don’t know if your message is as old as the New Testament, but it is certainly as old as Babylon.
By the way, “Jeremy Bentham” ranked higher as a Google search name yesterday, according to my sources. And The Knight Shift blog wound up being one of the most-hit because of it.
And I do know of a person who was killed before she could be baptized. She lived long enough to come to put her faith in Jesus Christ, and I saw her have a beautiful and sweet experience in coming to know Him. Satan did everything he could to keep her from coming to Christ, but she still found her Lord and Savior.
You so do not want to as much dare as tell me that she is in Hell today because she was not baptized. You REALLY don’t want to go there, Johnny Robertson.
But we know who you are, and what you stand for. And now with your own words as testimony against you, recorded on this blog…
…I trust that others can make their own judgment about you as well.
You’ve revealed yourself to us today, Johnny Robertson, as you never have before. And I don’t know if you even care to understand that.
You have demonstrated that you idolize your denomination. And that you idolize your own self. You do NOT follow Christ at all. If you did you would have more faith in His grace than you have in your own cowardice.
May God have mercy on you.
“Chris , I’m curious what denomination are you a part of?”
None.
Too cold in Alaska to be baptized? Who ever would claim such a thing would really be ignorant of the facts. Do people live in Alaska? Indoors? Today the high was 49 f and the low 40f. That’s outside.Last time I checked water still didn’t freeze above 32f. I would think that common sense would tell us that folks that live there would live indoors with heating units for the structers. It seems as though common sense isn’t so common here.
So Chris you don’t worship any where? Do you believe in God or that Jesus was raised from the dead?
He’s baiting guys-just keep continuing to pray for him 🙂
We know the truth, and God does, too…so just keep praying for him!
“So Chris you don’t worship any where?”
Your question was “what denomination are you a part of?” You did not in any way ask me about worship.
“Do you believe in God or that Jesus was raised from the dead?”
Yes. But how can there be one without the other? You should have asked “Do you believe in God and that Jesus was raised from the dead?”
An even better question would be “Do you believe in God and that Jesus rose from the dead?”
So Chris I see you are ashamed to answer. ok
“He’s baiting guys-just keep continuing to pray for him :)”
I’ve seen this before, many times.
If he were not doing so much grievous harm to the cause of Christ, it would not be so bad.
I am convinced that the answer to his legalism, is to counter it with grace and love.
But me being the guy that God made me to be, I also cannot help but point out his absurdity by being absurd.
“We know the truth, and God does, too…so just keep praying for him!”
Here is where the wheat is cleaved from the chaff: we would – and do – pray for him. It remains an open question as to whether he would pray for us, however…
Chris where do you worship?
“So Chris I see you are ashamed to answer. ok”
That makes no sense. What do you think I’m ashamed of? Where did you possibly derive THAT from…?
(at this point Chris wonders if “faithful” is a person or a 2nd year community college student’s artificial intelligence programming project)
Seriously faithful, that kind of statement doesn’t make sense at all.
“On May 31, 2008 at 2:50 pm Chris Knight Said:
“So Chris you don’t worship any where?”
Your question was “what denomination are you a part of?” You did not in any way ask me about worship.
“Do you believe in God or that Jesus was raised from the dead?”
Yes. But how can there be one without the other? You should have asked “Do you believe in God and that Jesus was raised from the dead?”
An even better question would be “Do you believe in God and that Jesus rose from the dead?””
For all I know you are a jew. Do they believe both. I forgot I was asking someone who could not understand something so simple . I’ll try and type slower
“Chris where do you worship?”
Here.
faithless isnt praying for you,
and if he were no ones listening.
yeah i said it.
lee
Well Chris your on a site called answering the church but you won’t give a staraight answer so what should I think . Eith you’re too stupid to understand tha question or ashamed. Which one?
So you’re worshipping on this site . Interesting.
faithful, I’ve given two straight answers already. As straight as they could possibly be.
What more do you want?
“So you’re worshipping on this site . Interesting.”
No.
You still do not understand.
I worship here.
Chris your kindness was really felt when you said above
“dare”
are you a “fighten” baptist?
“dare” me
So since this site is not a church , and you worship here, then you are not a member of any church?
So since you worship here and the site is not a church am I to think that you are not a member of a church?
Php 1:20 According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.
Looks like Chris is a closet christian
I know Chris-I completely understand, especially when you have seen so many people heart by this attitude and behavior. I absolutely loathe what he is doing and continues to do, and how much he is really hurting the cause of Christ. It is absolutely despicable, I understand. It is sad and really unjustifiable that they are so loyal to their institution over Jesus-and that they will continue to preach a different message, even when they have been shown otherwise. I just do not want to stoop to his level. I am also incredibly thankful and KNOW that it is not up to him or any of us about who God will save or will not save, and I have full assurance in my Father. That is what I continue to try and focus on 🙂
I do continue to pray for him because God has called me to-though I don’t know if he would return the same courtesy…I know prayer is a mighty powerful thing and God has been known to change hearts before. With God, ALL things really are possible.
“faithful”, do you really think your behavior is Christ-like? Why are you always on the attack? Is this more of Johnny’s training?
Because I am pretty positive that you cannot find a Biblical reason (without taking it out of context) to actually justify the way you are acting.
Chris
so what are you saying
Chris said;
And I do know of a person who was killed before she could be baptized. She lived long enough to come to put her faith in Jesus Christ, and I saw her have a beautiful and sweet experience in coming to know Him. Satan did everything he could to keep her from coming to Christ, but she still found her Lord and Savior.
You so do not want to as much dare as tell me that she is in Hell today because she was not baptized. You REALLY don’t want to go there, Johnny Robertson.
Are you saying that this woman never had a chance in all the years of her life to be baptized.
You are saying that all her life that she chose not to be baptized before what ever happened to her is excused by you as ….
no amount of threats from you will keep us from refuting this as a case where “some one could not have been baptized …”
Johnny-stop playing God. You simply do not have that power-period.
Chris if you answers are so straight why can’t we tell what you’re trying to say?
chris are you still calling in and debating on Sunday nite?
or did your little plan back fire
Johnny did the wind just blow in here?
“So since you worship here and the site is not a church am I to think that you are not a member of a church?”
I am not talking about the site.
I worship here.
Because you don’t WANT to understand.
NTFKC
I thought I heard something
Where is here?
Yep, I heard a resounding gong and a clanging cymbal.
“Are you saying that this woman never had a chance in all the years of her life to be baptized.
You are saying that all her life that she chose not to be baptized before what ever happened to her is excused by you as ….”
Without knowing anything else about the matter, you jump to conclusion. I didn’t even do that with our discussion about Dianne Odell. I only said that presumably, her condition never allowed for her baptism. And I’m glad that she was able to.
Just out of curiosity Johnny: is there anything special or magical about baptism water? Or is there something about the words that are used when ministering baptism? Because if baptism IS required for salvation, then it logically follows that either the water or the intonation of the ritual is the causative agent for such a reaction.
“Where is here?”
“Here” for you is where you are. “Here” for me is where I am.
I do not believe that you are here at the moment.
Chris
did this all back fire on you
did you see the website about Diane?
one of the highlights of her life she said was to be baptized.
isnt that something?
You all try your best to find someone who didnt,
who then died “without getting to” and you try to commend their behavior
her is what jesus still says
Mr 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
here is what we are trying to get you all to see
Lu 7:29 And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.
30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.
you reject the counsel of God when you refuse to be baptized and if you die having done this all your days
then dont expect mercy as “rejecter”
I do say this with malice.
but it is the truth
katherine,
dont fret,i once thought they hurt the cause of jesus
but any more all i see is a desperation in their tone.
why else would they spend as much time checking this site. if they were as successful as they tout, there would be no time to worry about us.
they have said it as plainly as you need to hear,they are not your brothers. please tell me that you dont feel related to them spiritually, i certainly am not. if god saves them ,great but if not it wont be because of a lack of knowledge.
jesus christ is lord to the glory of god and no amount of superfluity of naughtiness on their part will change that.amen?
lee
Chris
you may won’t to go back and reread your comments
it was much stronger than this
and when I show it on TV it will be in quotes
“I do say this with malice.”
Can I quote this, Johnny? You said it, right? What if I just took this comment and told everyone this is all you said?
You are the doing the same thing.
For the record, no-I would not do that because it is wrong-but it is exactly what you are doing.
OK , Chris should we make our answers to you just straight? Seems like you’re hiding . I would be ashamed to if I were you
Chris worships the internet
chris said
I’m fairly certain that given her condition, that Dianne was never baptized. There’s no way it could have been done without killing her, most likely.
“At least she was never baptized by immersion, which is what you guys claim all the time is an absolute obligation in order to have salvation. ”
chris said
Johnny, James, and Norm: Are you really prepared to go on live television and say that it is with 100% conviction that you believe that God did not allow Dianne Odell into His kingdom yesterday morning, all because it was impossible for her to be water baptized? Or might you possibly even argue, per your logic, that Dianne Odell should have left her iron lung and risked water baptism if she wanted salvation? Because that is what you are claiming, whether you want to admit it or not.
I’m planning on calling some or all of you live on the air to ask you that, if you aren’t willing to provide an answer in any other way. If you won’t take my phone call, then maybe Charles Roark will let us debate the matter live on WGSR. Is that an open challenge? You bet it is.
so what are you going to do Chris?
“chris are you still calling in and debating on Sunday nite?”
No, I’m not going to call in and “debate” with you on Sunday night, Johnny.
Because I have better things to do than get involved with what amounts to a spiritual “pissing match” with someone who would only gobble up the attention, then regurgitate it and beg for more.
And also, because you and I and everyone reading this knows fully well what a “debate” means to you and your cohorts.
You do not want, and indeed are *horrified* of, sincere debate, on neutral ground that you cannot control and exploit. If I were to call in to your show, your finger would be hovering over the mute button the entire time (just as you do with practically everyone who calls into your shows) waiting to cut me off and take words out of context and even blatantly put words into the mouth of whoever disagrees with you.
“Debate” with you, Johnny? Everyone in this region knows what kind of a joke your brand of “debating” is.
Besides, what is there really to debate? You are a Pharisee who would hold people in terrified sway to legalism and doctrine. You yourself have an hour of time every week to pounce and expound and otherwise extrapolate.
While the only thing I could possibly bring to the discussion is the mercy and grace and love of Jesus Christ.
Legalism versus grace, Johnny. You see a “debate”. But it shouldn’t even be the desire of a heart consumed by grace to want “debate” for debate’s sake.
So I suppose that you “win”, if you wanted me to call in so that you could “debate”. I am more than open for a debate for the right reason and in a serious format. But you can not consent to either.
to katherine
do what ever. I have already told you all that we can defend anything we do even if it is demonstrate that a mistake was made in typing a message.
That really isn’t the same as trying to get out of something like Chris did.
Is no one going to be critical of Chris for using a situation where the parents of the departed will be made to feel greater hurt by him (Chris) throwing her into the debate?
You all gave me a good going over for the Henry Co. youth that died in alcohol related wreck.
No fairness here?
Come Nathan Randy ,….Anybody out here
Matt 11:16
children
here you go catch this malice oops
lifesaver.
lee
Chris said;
No, I’m not going to call in and “debate” with you on Sunday night, Johnny.
Because I have better things to do than get involved with what amounts to a spiritual “pissing match” with someone who would only gobble up the attention, then regurgitate it and beg for more.
Oh what has changed?
You don’t have a an emotional story to try and use to subvert people into taking your position?
Ok I am moving on. There is no truth here today.
Nice try Chris
I am still posting you tomorrow night. Your comments are good to show how desperate folks are to defeat us.
Are you here lee
I may use you too
tune in
Johnny Robertson spent an hour and a half visiting my blog. That’s in *addition* to the hour he already spent on it earlier this morning.
I’ve got the logs recorded of his visits to prove it, too.
I hope you aren’t worshiping *me*, Johnny (chuckling…)
But anyhoo…
Hey Johnny, if you want to point people to my blog, please do! I love visitors! Get paid for them, even. Puts more money in my pocket. Plus, it’s an opportunity for people to see everything that I’ve got on my blog: like the movies that I’ve made, recipes, funny images that I’ve done in Photoshop, along with serious commentary and Christian discussion.
I work HARD to make my blog something that offers a bit of everything! I’d be CRAZY to turn down your offer to share it with even more people!! 😛
Lee
I would rather use your preacher if he had nerve to defend openly what you defend openly.
Dont say it is wrong to defend debate because you all are whooooping it up out here in cyber (little children land space)
“I am still posting you tomorrow night.”
Yay!!!!
“Your comments are good to show how desperate folks are to defeat us.”
Hmmmm-mmmmm…
Chris
not so fast New Yorker (Chris),
I m not going to publish your blog boyee
just your latest blunder
bye now
promise?
how about using this post.
whats wrong john dont you love me?
i sure hope its not like brian edwards
……….did i say that out loud?
we both know how you love him huh?
do your best.
lee
Y’know Johnny, if you keep this up, people will be BEGGING for you and me to make an appearance on live television, and have a serious debate. One that neither one of us can control.
You wanna go there, dude?
“just your latest blunder”
Can ANYONE imagine the apostle Paul, or Peter, or James, or Polycarp, or any of the early church figures, telling someone else “Just your latest blunder”?
I can’t either…
No fairness here?
Come Nathan Randy ,….Anybody out here
Johnny, I havent logged on since yesterday morning, so I dont know what youre referring to.
I will go back and read the comments
Well , Chris said he would and then said he won’t . I wonder if the group will call him a liar. Before Katie said she was leaving and then didn’t . I didn’t see her called a liar. It seems there is a double standard here. More inconsistancy from the lost folks here.
listen guys, this isnt about Johnny. I dont understand why or the need that we make this a “Johnny issue”. The btm line in that baptism is connected to remission of sins and that is what you must prove wrong – who cares what Johnny says or anyone for that matter. Johnny has given scriptures as did Corey and others, and they yet have been refuted. Why the fuss about something Christ stated ( Mark 16:16 ) Why the fuss about something Peter stated ( Acts 2:38 ) Why the fuss about something Paul stated ( Gal 3:27 ) Johnny, Corey, myslef, and others are not negating the blood of Christ…just stating what is stated.
I understand the madness, but all you need to do is ignore the “gun fight” and just stick to the bible. I am guilty of this too, but will try better to not allow Johnny to pull me into a gun fight…let’s not fall prey to this any longer- it just makes great air-time for Johnny and doesnt do anything but make us look like him – just arguring and fighting instead of civil discussion.
lets say for the sake of argument that your right
and that it is connected. they will not accept a man who is baptised if not with some exact understanding.
matt 23:13
they arent going in themselves neither will they suffer those who are going in.
hypocrites and blind guides.
no………….. im not following them.
lee
I said that I would call in if Johnny or someone else from his group provided an answer “in any other way”.
Lo and behold, he did. I’m satisfied.
Doesn’t mean that I *agree* with him, but I am satisfied that he responded.
It doesn’t have to be a televised reply. I wasn’t particularly interested one way or the other how they would choose to respond. But they did and I’m surprised that they DID do that much.
So it’s no skin off my nose, or honor lost, if Johnny tries to make hay out of “debating”. He replied back. And apparently he DOES believe that without baptism, a person is lost.
Of course he’s free to believe whatever he wants to. That’s not my problem. It’s when he uses that to HURT others in the name of Christ though… well, then someone has to call him out on it.
In any case, I have to wonder HOW in the world is he going to make hay out of this for a solid HOUR tomorrow night…
And Johnny, if you read this:
Do you think that I am, in any way, in *fear* of you?
The Lord has brought me through plenty enough already. Through things that you can not begin to imagine.
Things much worse than anything that a “minister” could dredge up against me on live television.
This, is nothing. You, are nothing.
In the end, the will of God shall be served. Of that, I have faith. Regardless of what you try to do to me or anyone else.
His will prevails. His grace prevails. His mercy prevails. His love prevails.
And that is enough to be content with.
“The btm line in that baptism is connected to remission of sins and that is what you must prove wrong – who cares what Johnny says or anyone for that matter. Johnny has given scriptures as did Corey and others, and they yet have been refuted.”
*clears throat*
Romans 3:22-28
“This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
“Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.“
Pretty clear, no? We are saved by faith. We are saved by grace. There is no other work by which we are saved, that any might boast of.
It is stated unequivocally here that we are saved by faith apart from the law.
No baptism required. No baptism even mentioned at all.
Yes, Johnny-you have shown me (and all of us) that you will justify whatever you do-even when it is NOTHING like Christ. You have also not allowed room for any mistakes or room for grace for anyone else-because you simply do not understand it and choose not to embrace it, yet we have extended it to you.
What’s the deal with that?
left you a note katherine.
lee
From Chris:
Romans 3:22-28
“This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
“Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.“
Chris, I agree with these verses, but are there anymore verses in the bible that speak on forgiveness? Should we kick aside the verses that speak of baptism? We are justified by faith apart from observing the law. Was Peter mixing law and grace in Acts 2:38? Do you think Peter was confused not knowing baptism was somehow of merit – come on now, we know better. Likewise, Jesus himself must have been confused when he stated one must believe and be baptized to be saved. And Paul on many accounts must have been confused too, seeing he made the same connection between baptism and remission of sins. We, in no way are hinting, even suggesting that baptism is a work of the flesh “that merits forgiveness”.
I know Johnny can push the right buttons and often set outs to turn the tables, making us look like the ones attacking him, so it is a must that we not fall prey to this – let’s keep to the bible, without attacking him and if we disagree, so be it, we disagree…after all, who of us can claim perfect understanding??
randy i wrote a note to churchesofchrist.
is that you? if so how bout a reply
lee
ok, Lee, I will.
Chris:
Submerging beneath the surface of water and getting wet is not a “work”. The “work” that is done in baptism is done by God, not by man. The “work” that is done in baptism is the transference of a sinner from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light. The “work” that is done in baptism is God taking a dead man and making him alive! The “work” that is done in baptism is God taking the unrighteous and declaring them righteous. The “work” that is done in baptism is God clothing the sinner with the righteousness of Jesus. The “work” that is done in baptism is God uniting together man’s spirit with Christ’s. And this could NEVER, EVER be accomplished by man! The miracle that happens in baptism is not anything man does. It is something God Himself does through His Son, Jesus Christ.
It must be remembered that although baptism is something we must do (like believing and repenting), baptism is an act of faith, not a “work.” It must also be noted that the one at “work” when we are baptized is God, not us. See Colossians 2:12. Just as we must report to the hospital before a surgeon can operate on us, so too, we must “report to God’ in the waters of baptism, submitting to God and claiming His promise so that our sins will be forgiven. Just as it is the surgeon who is the one who is at work when we are operated on, so too, it is God who is the one who is at work when we undergo baptism.
Again, baptism is not our work, it is His!
Lee, if you left an email at churchesofChrist, it may have went to Matt or Mikey – they have access to my blog and their email may be attached. I didnt see any comments there from you to approve
The Epistles (letters) are written to Christians, i.e., people who have already been baptized into Christ (Romans 6:3-5, 1Cor 12:13).
The Epistles contain instructions to Christians and give instructions on how to remain in Christ and grow in Christ. The book of Acts gives examples of people who are not Christians becoming Christians. This is a great mistake many people make. They take instructions in the epistles on faith and apply them to conversion. But these verses do not relate to conversion, but to the converted. Once a person has been baptized into Christ, all the passages about faith and grace then apply.
In other words, once a person has been baptized into Christ, it can be said their faith is what continues to maintain their salvation.
I have found out baptism is NOT a work – by any definition.
Believing is!
John 6:28,29 KJV Then said they unto him, “What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?” Jesus answered and said unto them, “This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.”
When one lists the step one must take to follow the example of those in Acts, we see:
* Someone else must preach the Gospel in my presence – Romans 10:14,15
* I must hear the Gospel that is preached – same verses
* I must believe the Gospel – Romans 10:16,17; Hebrews 11:6
* I must repent -Acts 17:30; Acts 2:38; Luke 13:3,5
* I must confess Jesus of Nazareth, born of Mary to be the Son of God,
the Messiah – Romans 10:9
* Someone must baptize me – Acts 2:38; etc.
Note that the first and last “steps” require someone else “doing” something to me. I do not baptize myself. In fact, other than submitting to the act,
I do nothing. Absolutely nothing.
matt23:13 says it all.
WOE unto those who shut up the kingdom and wont go in themselves.and hinder those who ARE going in.
lee
The work is done by the baptizer not the baptizee. And to say that we are NOT saved by the works others do, would be to deny the work Our Lord did on the cross. Jesus said he had a baptism to undergo, he went to the cross, and was put there by others, we have a baptism to undergo, we go to the waters and are baptized by others. Jesus bleed at His baptism on the cross, we contact that blood at our baptism. Jesus became sin on the cross, paying our sin dept, we are made alive in Him when we are baptized…and just as Jesus was placed on the cross of others, we are to be baptized of others.
Lee said:
“Katherine,
dont fret,i once thought they hurt the cause of Jesus
but any more all i see is a desperation in their tone.
why else would they spend as much time checking this site. if they were as successful as they tout, there would be no time to worry about us.
they have said it as plainly as you need to hear,they are not your brothers. please tell me that you dont feel related to them spiritually, i certainly am not. if God saves them ,great but if not it wont be because of a lack of knowledge.
Jesus Christ is lord to the glory of God and no amount of superfluity of naughtiness on their part will change that.amen?
lee”
Yes, Lee-I agree. I hope for their sake that God is as full of grace and mercy as I believe He is, but I also know they will be held fully responsible for their vile actions. I do think much of it is about desperation and they do not have as much power as they would like to think they have. I just hate to think about those people who are under their power and hope that God is protecting them from being hurt.
Yes, God still reigns and glory will be His-even in the midst of this madness, I fully place my trust and hope in Him-knowing that He ultimately has the power and will take care of it all! 🙂
randy,
i am not trying to change what you believe.
hast thou faith? have it to thyself before god.
i am happy that im not condemned in the thing which i allow.
no……..i dont have a problem with the context.
lee
Lee, I am not addressing any problems with you, I know your heart is right…I was just making points about baptism that I believe – if you disagree, thats ok…Im not like Johnny and crew and never will act that way ever again.
Well, I am signing off for tonight.
take care
JR wrote:
“Chris
not so fast New Yorker (Chris),
I m not going to publish your blog boyee
just your latest blunder”
Interesting, the censorship that JR is undertaking. Let’s look at all the things he isn’t willing to discuss on his program:
1) The truth about what happened with Jason Hairston.
2) The URL of Chris Knight’s blog.
3) The URL of this blog, or Randy’s blog, or the ex-church of Christ’s blog, or any other site that is effective in demonstrating his error.
(and, by the way, I should point out that when the “Lion and Lamb” people put on their video exploring the doctrine of the church of Christ, Norm Fields gave out their information. Now that is integrity. Why can’t we get reasonable Norm to come here and comment instead of the clanging cymbal of JR?)
4) The fact that we’re praying for him, Norm and James today
5) That we publish his URL here, and that he doesn’t reciprocate.
And I’m sure the list could be added to. These are just the things that come to my mind after reading over the comments of the last few hours.
By the way, JR, why don’t you tell us what happened with Jason Hairston? I know that you’ve been trying to distract everyone away from that, but why don’t you enlighten us, since you aren’t afraid of the truth?
faithful wrote:
“Too cold in Alaska to be baptized? Who ever would claim such a thing would really be ignorant of the facts. … It seems as though common sense isn’t so common here.”
faithful, JR wrote “Did someone say “in Alaska it toooo cold” to be baptized”. Nobody said that, except him. He apparently was using that as another example so that he could boast about his Indiana Jones history, baptizing in “shark-infested waters”.
You need to read carefully before you post, friend.
Speaking of JR’s boasting (this time and any other – and there have been many times…), what does the NT say about boasting? Here are some good verses: Rom.3.27, Rom.4.2, 1Cor.1.31, 1Cor.5.6, and one of my favorites: 1 Cor.13.4, “Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant.”
Answering , you weren’t interested in Jason’s wellbeing before. Why the interest now?
Randy if you believe so much in the baptism , why haven’t you done it? Or have you since you stopped visiting with the church?
I’ve heard the Alaskan thing before. Harold gearheart came up with htat on his show
“Someone must baptize me – Acts 2:38; etc.”
And if someone in a far remote location comes to have faith in Christ in some fashion other than traditional means, but there is no one to baptize him, and no Christian ever does come to baptize him, and that person dies unbaptized, then that person is… spiritually SNAFU? All because that person MUST be baptized but there was no one to baptize him/her?
While we are on the subject:
WHO can baptize another person, exactly?
I would *really* like to see someone bring a response to that one. Who is it that can baptize?
faithful, faithful, faithful. Why don’t you take my advice and do some reading before you comment. Here – I’ll help you. Follow these little links:
As you can see, we’ve been discussing Jason on and off since he mysteriously vanished from the airwaves. I still wish he’d come here and comment himself, but he chooses not to. That’s his call. Meanwhile, since you seem to be in the know over there in CofC land, would you like to come out of the shadows and tell the community what happened?
Did I answer that question well enough for you?
First, Johnny wrote:
“Did someone say “in Alaska it toooo cold” to be baptized”
Then faithful responded:
“Too cold in Alaska to be baptized? Who ever would claim such a thing would really be ignorant of the facts. Do people live in Alaska? Indoors? Today the high was 49 f and the low 40f. That’s outside.Last time I checked water still didn’t freeze above 32f. I would think that common sense would tell us that folks that live there would live indoors with heating units for the structers. It seems as though common sense isn’t so common here. (emphasis mine)”
Then, when called on the fact that this whole Alaska thing is coming from his Beloved Leader, faithful quickly says:
“I’ve heard the Alaskan thing before. Harold gearheart came up with htat on his show”
Which brings me to ask this very, very important question:
SO WHAT’S YOUR POINT?!?
Your guy brought it up, and so you have basically just declared that what he is bringing up lacks common sense. Your words – not mine.
JR, you better rein in faithful before he really paints you into a corner. He’s trying just a little bit too hard, and he’s getting sloppy.
Well, guys, I hate to end this before Chris has had his question answered – and before faithful can attempt to back out from the things I’ve brought up, but I’m closing up the comments for the night. I’ll open it up tomorrow night after we’ve had our day of prayer.
Again, I will be taking comments, but just not approving them unless they are directly connected to praying for these men. So your comments will come out after the 1st of June if you want to go ahead and post them.
Everyone have a blessed day!
Nathan
Hey everyone-just wanted to say I will be joining you all in praying for these guys tomorrow, and will not be back on until after Wednesday because I am headed to Cancun with my family! 🙂
I pray that these men feel the prayers being lifted up for them, that the conversations here will be fruitful, and that we can all strive to shine the light of Christ into a world that needs the hope and love of Jesus.
On May 31, 2008 at 10:19 pm Chris Knight Said:
“Someone must baptize me – Acts 2:38; etc.”
Randy: per scripture that seems right on point.
Chris: And if someone in a far remote location comes to have faith in Christ in some fashion other than traditional means, but there is no one to baptize him, and no Christian ever does come to baptize him, and that person dies unbaptized, then that person is… spiritually SNAFU? All because that person MUST be baptized but there was no one to baptize him/her?
Randy: why the need to come up with cases that are out of the norm? Scripture still teaches this regardless of what we can come up with to water it down.
Chris: While we are on the subject:
WHO can baptize another person, exactly?
Randy: Anyone can.
Chris: I would *really* like to see someone bring a response to that one. Who is it that can baptize?
Randy: Anyone. I just dont see all the fuss about this, when its clear that it was taught by Jesus, Peter, and Paul…why fight something that is true? Nobody yet has refuted the scriptures that teach this – not one person yet. I know each argument you may have and in the end, they will just fall apart.
Nathan
we have answered Chris and we cant wait for his call.
the brethren that meet with me were greatly encouraged by his blunder.
They also agreed that you all should spank him soundly for bringing the grieving family of Ms Odell into his argument
the internet goes everywhere and you all claim that your site is being hit all over
Pr 26:7 The legs of the lame are not equal: so is a parable in the mouth of fools.
any one can see how lame Chris is (and you all if you dont rebuke him)
I am sure I will have wait till eternity for you to correct him
Sincere? People? on this site?
ask for the sunday lesson in which I used Chris mistake at 823 Starling 11AM
Nathan since you are there seeing this
Tonite I will get to demonstrate not 1 but 2 people who put up challenges and then took them back.
All from your little ole site
thank you nathan
you would think presbyterians would have learned from the young preacher who had only been with us two years and put to flight not 1 but 2 presbyterians twice his age with triple his experience.
Oh yes, his name was Jason
he is a thorn in your side isn’t he?
Randy says you are the man who debated him.
I dont care if you are or not.
Your kind couldn’t even answer one of young preachers huh?
Have you read the url of the Presbyterian history yet?
pg 215 History presbyterian Church in the State of kentucky Robert Davidson
have you heard of the “torrent” that swept through the presbee faith? in Kentucky ? 150,000 conversions before they could get themselves together and start trying to debate. they never recovered says Historian Davidson…a presbyterian
wow that is some powerful teaching
Last night I confronted Johnny Robertson outside the WGSR studio, with questions and a video camera.
My questions were..
1. How is what he is doing demonstrating devotion to Christ and His love to a lost world?
2. Where in scripture does it state that a person who is not baptized will go to Hell?
3. “I’m right here Johnny, now how about that live debate?” (paraphrase)
He didn’t answer the first, COULD NOT answer the second (later on he said that baptism is a commandment but he STILL can not point to anywhere in scripture that says the unbaptized believer will go to Hell), and he OUTRIGHT REFUSES for various reason to debate me: because I’m not credentialed enough apparently, because I’m not Baptist or Presbyterian, and because I would be “boring” (his word).
I presented the opportunity to Johnny Robertson to have a live on-air debate. He refuses and I cannot help but think it is because he is afraid. He kept calling me a “renegade” and even on his live show, told everyone that he didn’t “know about Chris Knight”.
The better angels of my nature are holding me back from making a reference to barnyard fowl regarding Johnny’s hesitancy, parse that as you will…
And Johnny also told me that I wasn’t saved, apparently because my baptism was all wrong.
And he doesn’t believe in “turning the other cheek either” in regard to his television commercials (after I told him that they were silly and spiteful).
From Johnny: Randy says you are the man who debated him.
From Randy: Do what !!??
Johnny, maybe you should go back and read the emails again. I never said Nathan is Jeff Black. I said Nathan and Jason first talked when Jeff Black came on the scene. I have confessed more than once that I do not know who Nathan is and I dont. And honestly, it doesnt even matter…maybe me throwing this in your face made you think Nathan is Jeff Black, when I ask you to put the puzzle together, I surely didnt mean this…try again.
way to go Chris, you took him by suprise just like he does everyone else. He will now ask for a debate on his terms…watch and see
I think Chris definitely ruffled his feathers last night.
And Johnny Johnny Johnny… I was disappointed when you didn’t show up at my church yesterday evening prior to your show. I thought for sure you’d take me up on the invitation to attend. Looks like the only one that backs out of things is you.
Folks, really… it wasn’t hard at all to go down to the station and meet Johnny head on. It’s not hard at all to do ANYTHING without fear.
Answering the Church of Christ 
Is Chris in an iron lung also? Is anyone else here in an iron lung?
Does that good woman’s extraordinary circumstances negate the necessity of baptism for those of us that are physically able to be immersed?
On May 29, 2008 at 8:23 am coreydavis Said:
“Is Chris in an iron lung also? Is anyone else here in an iron lung?
Does that good woman’s extraordinary circumstances negate the necessity of baptism for those of us that are physically able to be immersed?”
-I knew this was coming and agree with Corey, but the point still could be made, does Gods grace cover cases such as these? And as Corey stated does that good woman’s extraordinary circumstances negate the necessity of baptism for those of us that are physically able to be immersed?”
Randy,
I think the point is that we don’t know. I’ve said over and over that we will have to trust in the mercy and justice of God for those people. Is God not just? Is He not fair? Whatever He decides in those cases we be just that – just and fair.
But for us, it would be wrong to expect God’s grace to cover disobedience. By disobedience I mean this: if you are able to be immersed in the Biblical fashion (for the remission of sins, prior to salvation) and you don’t do it, you are not being obedient.
What I see in Chris’ post is that if God would save her not being baptized He would save everyone who rejected baptism as it is recorded in scriptures. It is grasping at straws.
We are told in Scripture that God is “no respecter of persons.”
Why then would He change the criteria for salvation for one individual and not for everyone else?
Per the doctrine of the kind of “Church of Christ” that is advocated by Robertson, Oldfield and Fields, Odell could not possibly have been granted such a dispensation by God on account of her condition, and thus did not have salvation. It wasn’t even POSSIBLE for her to have salvation per their stance, because to attempt it would be to invite certain physical death.
Are they really going to come out and say that she SHOULD have been baptized by immersion, if she wanted to be saved, even though she would probably have not survived even being brought to the water?
What about people in other circumstances, who likewise come to repentance and their need for forgiveness, who cannot for whatever reason be water baptized either? IS GOD GOING TO ALLOW THEM TO GO TO HELL BECAUSE OF THAT?
Again, I have to wonder why Robertson, Oldfield and Fields make themselves so big and God so very small.
One thing that is a must is to know their doctrine that is taught by the church of Christ. There are tons of free courses online from many church of Christ churches. I would suggest anyone wanting to better equip yourself, study what all is taught by them. This is one reason I stopped watching them on TV too – most callers call in and have no clue what they( cofC ) teach and almost always set themselves up for the fall. I would take the doctrines primarily taught on their shows and study them from their POV and then others POV, Also study some history; read books from authors who once believed and taught as Johnny. Here are a few:
Baptism
Lords Supper
Original sin
Election
Predestination
Faith Only
Mechanical Instruments in church
cofC hermeneutics ( CENI ) Law of silence / speak where the bible speaks
Tithing
This is some things, but it’s a must to know their teachings/doctrine as well as they do, because they know yours just as well, and honestly, better that most church goers know their own denomination beliefs.
Jesus said in Luke 12:
47 And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.
So there you have Jesus saying that different things are expected of different people. That woman has not been given “much” in the way of physical health, so she cannot be held accountable in the same way as one who has been given “much” in the way of physical health.
The problem is that you want to lump everyone together. Jesus didn’t put us all in the same categories and neither should we. If you are physically able to be immersed for the remission of sins then God expects that of you.
You seem to think that teaching the Biblical necessity of baptism somehow makes God “small”. It does not. To say that because of rare exceptions you don’t have to obey God makes Him “small”. When you say you don’t have to obey because someone else couldn’t obey you deny the gift of good health that God has given you, making God’s commandment to be baptized for the remission of sins “small” and your desire to do what you want “big”.
“So there you have Jesus saying that different things are expected of different people. That woman has not been given “much” in the way of physical health, so she cannot be held accountable in the same way as one who has been given “much” in the way of physical health.”
You’re now saying that God DOES extend His grace to some? What about those who might not come to have faith until after a long and physically healthy life, but for various reasons are also not capable of being water baptized?
What about the teenage girl that I once knew who had a very profound and moving salvation experience, and before the night was over was in a car accident and killed instantly, before she had a chance to be baptized? SHE wasn’t physically infirm either. But she didn’t have a chance at baptism either. Is she in Hell today?
I wasn’t baptized until two years after I was saved. If I were to have died in the interim, would I have gone to Hell because of that?
I have another friend who has been a believer in Christ for a very long time. She has not been baptized yet. She is waiting, and I can understand why (and those reasons aren’t anybody else’s business). She witnesses to everyone she meets simply because of the love of Christ that she shows in her actions. She *could* be baptized. She doesn’t NOT believe in baptism, but as I’ve said, she has good reasons not to be baptized at the present time. Who is ANYONE on this Earth to tell her that she is in dire danger of being lost forever unless she is “baptized”? What’s the difference between her being “baptized” in a church and dunking herself in a bathtub whenever she likes, anyway? Or does salvation ONLY come from a baptism that is (a) by immersion and (b) with the “right words” spoken by someone doing the baptism?
Do you know what that is, Corey? That’s ascribing a power to a physical act, that is not “powerful” in and of itself at all. Some might call that “magic”. I call it a form of Gnosticism.
I would even say that it is a kind of idolatry. We are *supposed* to worship Christ. We are *not* supposed to worship baptism. Christ alone can save us. Works, even those done in His name, can never save us.
Lee,
You’re doing the same things that Chris was doing – throwing out extraordinary circumstances and trying to apply them to everyone. Are you saying that because a minuscule amount of people physically cannot be immersed that the overwhelming majority that can shouldn’t? Did you not read Jesus’ words that more will be expected of those that are given more?
You said:
I wasn’t baptized until two years after I was saved
Scripturally speaking it is impossible for you to be saved and not baptized. Baptism puts us into Christ (Gal 3:27). If you were somehow saved without baptism you were saved outside of Christ.
To insist upon baptism for the remission of sins is neither worship of the act nor idolatry. It is simply following God’s word. Christ saves, not baptism, but He has promised that He will give salvation to those that follow His commandments – of which baptism is one. Do you insist that a person should repent prior to salvation since that is what the Bible teaches? If so, are you now worshiping repentance, or are you just teaching what God has said? People like me seem to put such a great deal of emphasis on baptism because man-made religions have tried to take it out of God’s word and His plan. You cannot show me where I’ve ever said to worship baptism. Furthermore, baptism is never called a work in scriptures. Faith, on the other hand, IS called a work by Jesus. No action or work will save us, only Christ will, but He has only promised salvation to those that obey all His commandments – not just the ones we like or that some church may teach.
Corey,
This is where the very peculiar doctrine of these self-professed “Church of Christ” folks breaks down, and why I can not only believe what they preach but find what Robertson, Oldfield, Fields and the few others to be downright heretical…
…because their doctrine is OBSESSED with legalism, to a degree that I wonder if the Pharisees would have even found ridiculous.
NOT ONCE have I heard a single frazzlin’ word from these people about the LOVE of Christ! It is ALWAYS about following through with ordnances, like baptism. But they are so fixated with the ritual that they have completely lost all understanding of the REASON for the ritual. And the ritual itself was never, EVER supposed to take the place of sincere love and devotion to God. This was true even as far back as the Old Testament.
I’ve listened to Robertson, Oldfield and Fields *many* times. They are men completely bereft of any preaching of the love of God. THEIR “God” is a grim-faced, flint-eyed drill sergeant who will do a lot worse than make you drop and give him a hundred pushups if the “recruits” don’t toe the line.
They are preaching another Christ. A Christ so over-adorned with the trappings of scripture itself, that he is completely unrecognizable from any other idol of this world.
What makes Christ different from all others? His love and His mercy. If the lost of this world can not see that, then why SHOULD they believe in Christ at all?
Robertson, Oldfield and Fields do their darndest to compel others to believe in religion. But they do nothing at all to persuade others to believe in Christ.
Let me point you all to the Old Testament, which was “written for our learning”. Specifically Numbers 21:
6The LORD sent fiery serpents among the people and they bit the people, so that many people of Israel died.
7So the people came to Moses and said, “We have sinned, because we have spoken against the LORD and you; intercede with the LORD, that He may remove the serpents from us.” And Moses interceded for the people.
8Then the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live.”
9And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived.
Now, certainly among all those people there was at least one person who was blind. What if that blind person was bitten? They couldn’t look upon the serpent. By the rationale presented here no one would have to look upon the serpent for healing because of the one who physically couldn’t look upon the serpent. Do you think a man who was bitten would have lived if he said, “so-and-so can’t look upon the serpent so I don’t have to” or do you think he would have followed the Lord’s commandment and let the Lord worry about the blind man?
Corey I don’t think I am too far off from your beliefs
I agree with you that baptism is important and I feel that it is an act of obedience and maybe I would even say that yes it’s a “command”.
The part where I guess I drift away from your POV is that insisting that baptism is FOR the remission of sins. I disagree, Jesus’ blood paid for our sins, not baptism. And its belief in Him that delivers us, not the immersion of water. But that doesn’t mean I disagree with you that a person needs to be baptized and that in doing so one is following the commands of scripture… because I would strongly agree with that position.
“No action or work will save us, only Christ will, but He has only promised salvation to those that obey all His commandments – not just the ones we like or that some church may teach.”
Corey, then you are going to Hell too. So am I. So is EVERYONE alive or who ever lived, because NOBODY can perfectly obey His commandments.
I can’t even recall from scripture that Christ COMMANDED water baptism at all. He was baptized of course, and He told His disciples when He ascended to baptize the world “in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit” but that does NOT in any way indicate physical baptism with water. He meant baptism in His Word, which brings salvation… and NOT liquid H20.
“Scripturally speaking it is impossible for you to be saved and not baptized. Baptism puts us into Christ (Gal 3:27). If you were somehow saved without baptism you were saved outside of Christ.”
Corey,
I don’t know any other way to say this, other than: you’re full of it.
And you are committing a terrible twisting of scripture also.
I was baptized in a Baptist church, by the way. Guess I’m damned no matter what, huh?
Actually Chris
in Acts, Jesus even says to the apostles that though they were once baptized with water, they would not be baptized with the Holy Spirit but I have been told several times that that word was only mean for the apostles and was only speaking of pentecost and does not apply beyond that moment or to anyone else
of course I would disagree
it’s interesting to me how anyone can discern what scripture applies and which doesn’t… the picking and choosing of scripture is what has left the church in shambles to begin with
they would NOW be baptized… not “NOT”…
sorry for the error
Chris,
Just FYI regarding Corey – theologically he is on the same page as the three TV guys, but character-wise, he (at least on this blog) acts very Christlike.
Just wanted to alert you to that before you put him into the same category as our three lovable TV hosts.
Carry on, all.
Nathan
Katie wrote:
I disagree, Jesus’ blood paid for our sins, not baptism
Actually, we agree. The question then is how do we get into Jesus to contact that precious blood? The answer is in Galatians 3:27 – we are baptized into Him. To say that we aren’t baptized for the remission of sins is in direct conflict with Acts 2:38.
Chris wrote:
I can’t even recall from scripture that Christ COMMANDED water baptism at all.
Mark 16:16. John 4:1. Every reputable religious scholar acknowledges that the baptism of the Great Commission is water baptism. This is evidenced in Acts 8 where Philip and the eunuch went “down into the water”. There is no scriptural evidence that the baptism Jesus commanded is a baptism “into His word”.
Chris wrote:
I don’t know any other way to say this, other than: you’re full of it.
Well, thanks for your civil conversation. That is a very kind thing of you to say.
On May 29, 2008 at 10:26 am coreydavis Said:
Katie wrote:
I disagree, Jesus’ blood paid for our sins, not baptism
Actually, we agree. The question then is how do we get into Jesus to contact that precious blood? The answer is in Galatians 3:27 – we are baptized into Him. To say that we aren’t baptized for the remission of sins is in direct conflict with Acts 2:38.
Chris wrote:
I can’t even recall from scripture that Christ COMMANDED water baptism at all.
Mark 16:16. John 4:1. Every reputable religious scholar acknowledges that the baptism of the Great Commission is water baptism. This is evidenced in Acts 8 where Philip and the eunuch went “down into the water”. There is no scriptural evidence that the baptism Jesus commanded is a baptism “into His word”.
Chris wrote:
I don’t know any other way to say this, other than: you’re full of it.
Well, thanks for your civil conversation. That is a very kind thing of you to say.
– like I pointed out above, please study what is taught by the cofC, before trying to debate the issues with Corey or any others. Everything Corey stated can not be refuted…but feel free to try…but first know what they teach and why
I don’t want to sound like a broken record, but cofC preachers know every single argument you have. They are not ever caught off guard, that’s not bragging on anyone, just the facts. The only way to even come close is to study their views just as much as they have…
ok, whos next? 🙂 Try and refute this, Corey is not like our guys here, he will be nice about it, but good luck
The big thing that they always do is put people on the defensive. And Randy’s right – because most of us outside of their doctrinal viewpoint don’t know what they believe other than maybe that they don’t play musical instruments and demand baptism.
But, actually, the best thing to do is always bring the conversation back around to Jesus.
Always.
Randy,
The things you’re saying sound like I’m here looking for a fight – I’m not. I’m not Johnny. When he talks to someone and can’t convince them of the truth, he still feels he has won because he won an argument. When I talk to someone and can’t convince them of the truth I feel I’ve lost because I couldn’t get through.
I’m not here to show off or sharpen my debate skills – I’m here because I have a great love for all who desire to know and love Christ. I’m not a paid preacher. I’ve never been to preaching school and the only religious education I’ve had is a religious studies class in college. I just love God’s word – all of it – and I want to do all I can to help others who are sincere but need some help.
Corey, you are taking me completely wrong. I am just telling the folks who disagree with our views that they need to know the teachings and doctrine of cofC better, thats all. Trust me, I am do not mean things as you suggest. Its hard to covey things on here at times…easy to misread what people are saying or to read more into it…anyways, you are wrong about my motives…k
Randy,
I know what you meant, but I am concerned with how someone else might view your statements. Like you said, it is hard to convey your thought sometimes on the internet.
I do think that this issue of baptism needs to be put out and explained. I would like to ask those who oppose the cofC view to explain what is so hard about seeing the connection between baptism and forgivenss. Is this something they view as merit/work? I tried for 6 months to get around this and never could, I welcome anybody else for their input and reasons why the coofC is wrong on the doctrine of baptism, because I just dont see a way around it…
Just as you, the question on this post is one we both have heard. I knew the answer and I doubt Johnny will reply to this. The btm line isnt about people who CANT follow the teachings on baptism, but to the people who can. Katie, Ric, Lee, Chris, please explain why this can not be so, why can baptism not be connected to being forgiven. Please note, I consider you guys friends and whatever we disagree on will not change that nor will I ever act like Johnny towards you. I just think we all would do well to fully examine both sides.
Corey, email my yahoo, something I need to ask thats not related to the blogs
randycraiger@yahoo.com
Randy for me, my biggest “beef” with the whole baptism discussion is that it appears to me that a greater emphasis is placed on the ordinance of baptism or the act of baptism than is on Jesus. I read the verses that are quoted so often to support the CofC POV and I agree with you guys in that baptism is important and I would go so far as to say it is a vital act of obedience. And absolutely, being baptized identifies us with Christ, it’s a physical representation of discarding the old self.
However, when I read other verses (in particular Romans 10:9-10, John 14:6, and even John 3:16)… I find no mention of baptism as necessary for salvation. I believe it to be important but I don’t feel that if a person isn’t baptized that they aren’t saved or that a person isn’t saved until they are baptized. It is my opinion that such a stand places more emphasis on the act of baptism than the act of repentance and reception of forgiveness and the righteousness of Christ.
I don’t know if that is clear or if I rambled. My mind is tired today and so I apologize if I am not being clear.
Katie,
If people didn’t spend so much time trying to eliminate baptism’s role in the plan of salvation no one would be talking about it. If everyone accepted baptism’s role, yet rejected the role of repentance, you’d probably hear a great deal about repentance. Nothing we do compares to what Jesus does, but baptism plays a huge role in the when and where Jesus does His work on us.
As I’ve said many times before, none of the verses you just listed mention repentance, but we know that we must repent prior to God saving us. We know that because we have to take everything God said about our part in the salvation He offers and apply it. Admitting that baptism is part of our role and that it comes prior to salvation in no way negates the role of Jesus. There is no perfect verse that lists all of the things we’re supposed to do.
This is very true Corey “There is no perfect verse that lists all of the things we’re supposed to do.”
I concede that much is quite true.
I wanted to correct myself. My comment at 9:53 am was directed to Chris, not Lee. I was confused by how similar their avatars are. Sorry Lee.
So if I conceded that baptism is a part of the salvation process… would you or anyone else still claim that I am not truly a believer? Because I’ve definitely been told that. I am saying that I believe all that you are saying. I don’t believe that baptism is THE way to salvation, I believe that Jesus is THE way to salvation. And thus I don’t teach baptism, I teach Jesus. And I don’t witness baptism, I witness about Jesus Christ. But it is my understanding that though I believe in Jesus Christ, repented of my sins, received forgiveness, and was baptized that I’m not saved because I wasn’t baptized for the “remission of my sins”… so I basically get told that though I have followed the steps of salvation that the CofC has laid out are necessary, I’m still not saved because I essentially wasn’t baptized for the “right” reason or the “right” way… that’s where my views and beliefs differ extraordinarily and where I see the emphasis being placed more on the immersion in water than the salvation through the blood of Jesus.
And even further, bringing this back to our resident 3 guys…
on Norm’s program with him, I basically laid out for him exactly what I just did on here… and he said that I was not saved because theres no such thing as a sinners prayer (which for the record, I never said anything about a sinners prayer, he is the one that mentioned it and brought it into the discussion).
And it seemed to me that the only reason he could give me for why I was not saved, was because I came to my understanding of Jesus Christ and salvation in a Baptist church and because they have more issues with the Baptist church and spend more of their time attacking them than preaching Jesus… I couldn’t possibly be saved even though I have done EVERYthing they are telling me is necessary for salvation.
I just don’t get it. That’s where they end up looking like pharisees to me and being more concerned with laws and actions than love and grace.
Katie, I tried to get around this as stated eailer, but honestly, I don’t see any way to get aorund the fact that baptism and forgiveness are tied together. I accully view baptism as the believers wedding ceromony. I think Acts chapter 2 really helped me a lot, bacause its clear that the men there had faith in Christ as evidenced by them being hurt, but at this point they asked Peter “what shall we DO? The word DO means action on their part, Peter could have said DO !! ARE YOU KIDDING ME! – you just had faith in Christ through the message I preached, but he didn’t say that. He said to their question, repent AND be baptized unto ( eis ) the remission of sin, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Question: were they forgiven when they had faith in Christ viw the message of Peter? If not, when were they forgiven?
what I’m saying Randy is that I believe that baptism is very much tied together with forgiveness as part of a complete plan of salvation. But I also clearly see and understand that salvation is received through Christ, that’s why Christ Himself said “I am THE way, THE truth, THE life.. no one comes to the father but through me”… not through water, not through special prayers, or powerful messages but Him.
That’s what I’m saying. I’m not taking away from the importance of baptism but asking.. what about Jesus.
And even when I admit that baptism is vital I’m still told that I’m not truly saved.. explain how that is so?
I will tell you what James told me once when I ask this question, he said you cant be baptized right and then go back to a denominational church-wrong church. I guess he was saying you could “obey the gospel” correctly, but then be lost if you went to a denominational church. Maybe Corey can elaborate on this.
and as for your question.
the people didn’t ask “what should we to be forgiven” they said what should we do and Peter responded repent, and be baptized which is the SAME message that pastors all across the nation preach on a weekly basis so this scripture in no way convicts me that I’m in the “wrong” here. Peter doesn’t say “repent and be baptized and if you don’t get baptized you’re still bound for hell”…
Obviously.. the most important part of salvation is the repentance.. the turning from sin and turning towards Christ. Baptism is a physical representation of that and would be why it is vital to follow through as an act of obedience and be baptized. I am not disagree with you guys on this, perhaps I’m not being clear.
Well Randy if that’s so… in my humble opinion then James is lost also because the CofC is still a denomination…. as per the webster’s dictionary defitnion of denomination.
Perhaps… or perhaps *not*… my earlier comment was not one of a Christ-like nature. If it was not then I apologize and if He judges there’s nothing wrong with it then I’ll stand by it.
Corey, it’s true: I don’t know you. But that WAS one of the most ridiculous things that I have ever heard in my life (and I’ve heard ridiculous, believe you me).
My salvation – and anyone elses – depended not one whit on whether I was baptized or not. Believe me, I spent a LOT of time studying the Bible at the time and seeking counsel from those who knew it better than I did… and baptism as a REQUIREMENT for salvation isn’t in there.
As one person told me, if baptism WAS a requirement, it would be a “work” – a physical action – as much as any the Hebrews did in the Old Testament…. which is something that Christ came to DELIVER us from captivity to, not to chain us up to even MORE “work”!
And you don’t know ME, either. You’ve no idea why I wasn’t baptized for two years. How can you possibly make THAT kind of judgment about whether a person is saved or not?
Do these so-called “Church of Christ” people actively go LOOKING for reasons to declare why a person is not saved?
Wouldn’t it be MORE in keeping with Christ’s love and His commandments (the greatest of which IS to love one another) to build up the Kingdom of God rather than be hellbent on tearing it apart?
Again I say: not once have I heard a word of graciousness and love from Robertson and his cohorts. And as Paul taught, if we have love then we have nothing.
Robertson, Oldfield, Fields and others of their camp might as well be labeled false teachers, because they want nothing to do with love of Christ or love of others.
It is honestly mind boggling to me that we could be so close to believing the exact same thing and yet I’m still “wrong”… kwim?
Katie wrote:
So if I conceded that baptism is a part of the salvation process… would you or anyone else still claim that I am not truly a believer?
If you did concede that and you were immersed for the remission of sins I wouldn’t doubt you as a believer. I would consider you a sister in Christ. From there, you may do things in worship that are contrary to the word which would cause me to be unable to worship with you. I would ask you to change those things, but I would feel confident that you are saved.
Katie wrote:
I don’t believe that baptism is THE way to salvation, I believe that Jesus is THE way to salvation
I agree. Per Galatians 3:27 baptism is the way INTO Jesus when we’ve believed, confessed Him and repented.
Katie wrote:
And I don’t witness baptism, I witness about Jesus Christ.
That is interesting when you consider Acts 8: 34The eunuch asked Philip, “Tell me, please, who is the prophet talking about, himself or someone else?” 5Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus.
36As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, “Look, here is water. Why shouldn’t I be baptized?”
Notice that Philip taught him about Jesus and the first thing the eunuch said was, “Look, here is water. Why shouldn’t I be baptized?” This shows us that when we teach Jesus we teach baptism.
Katie wrote:
That’s where they end up looking like pharisees to me and being more concerned with laws and actions than love and grace.
That’s the problem I see Katie. People think it has to be one or the other. Look at Matthew 23:23. Jesus condemns the Pharisees for doing the letter of the law, but not having the proper spirit. Jesus says we should do both! We don’t have to pick. I look at Johnny and I see someone with the doctrine, but none of the proper spirit. I look at many people in denominations and I see the proper spirit, but none of the proper doctrine. There is a middle ground and that is where Jesus instructed us to walk.
My understanding of baptism will differ slightly from that of James, Johnny, Norm, even Corey perhaps. I think one can be baptized without “properly understanding” that sins are forgiven at that point and still be forgiven. And, yes, I also believe one could be saved attending another denomination. I know this invites more debate on other issues, but that’s how I understand this for the present time…
Randy,
If you believe that then please explain why the Ephesians in Acts 19 would need to be immersed for a second time. If there is no proper way, or degree of understanding necessary, then what Paul did when he baptized them for a second time was pointless.
Katie,
Baptism is an outward physical sign that we have repented. It’s something we do to show that Christ now dwells within us. But it doesn’t make us saved.
Baptism is like a wedding ring. I’m married, and I wear a gold ring on my left hand as a tangible sign to the world that I am married and united in flesh and spirit with a wonderful wife.
But the ring itself does NOT make me married! And that really is what some people are claiming, isn’t it: that by putting on the ring, I am married and if I don’t have the ring, then I am not married at all.
Marriage itself is a spiritual state (among others) that my wife and I chose to enter into together, and when we were married we stood before many witnesses and made our declaration before God and to each other that we wished to enter into this of our free will and choosing. There was a wedding ceremony, but that too was just an outward sign of an inward condition. The minister had no special powers or anything else on his own that changed the nature of Lisa and myself. The church building did not imbue some new quality within us. The REAL wedding took place in the eyes of God. But for various reasons (including legal) we needed to do this much. And the exchanging of rings was part of our ceremony and commitment to each other. But we would have been just as married if we had no rings to exchange and wear before the world.
Just as I would still be a saved, redeemed and sealed believer in Christ even if I were not baptized to this day.
It is not without reason that we as believers are called the “bride of Christ”. Would Jesus spurn His bride just because she forgot to, or by some other circumstance could not at all, wear her wedding ring?
I can’t find any evidence that He would. Neither will the Church Of Christ In Name Only and its ministers.
Here is a site with some good info
http://www.bebaptized.org/
Chris, you’ve got a lot of nice words, but I haven’t seen any scriptures to back them up.
On May 29, 2008 at 1:46 pm coreydavis Said:
Randy,
If you believe that then please explain why the Ephesians in Acts 19 would need to be immersed for a second time. If there is no proper way, or degree of understanding necessary, then what Paul did when he baptized them for a second time was pointless.
-They had been baptized of John and not even heard the mesaage of Christ – I do see your point. So that leads to this question, if someone is baptized today “believing upon Christ, but not undersatnding the conection of baptsim and forgivenss, will they be saved”? This is a far cry from Johns baptism, nobody today is baptized under John.
Corey,
There’s been plenty of scripture.
Regardless of whether I cite book, chapter and verse.
Doesn’t make my argument any less valid. Doesn’t it more valid for others if they choose to gloat their knowledge of chapter numbers, either.
I haven’t seen any scripture backing up what the “Church of Christ In Name Only” of Robertson, Oldfield and Fields are preaching about baptism required for salvation, either. Not really.
WHERE in the Bible does it point-blank say that without water baptism, one is not saved?
Seems like such an obligation would have been the focal point of Jesus’ ministry on Earth if it were, would it not? But He never did that at all. And it can’t ever be claimed that He did, either.
Those passages never say they hadn’t heard of Christ. All we know for sure is:
*They were baptized unto repentance (John’s baptism) instead of unto the forgiveness of sins (Jesus’ baptism)
*They didn’t know about the Holy Spirit
“However, when I read other verses (in particular Romans 10:9-10, John 14:6, and even John 3:16)… I find no mention of baptism as necessary for salvation.
Ro 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Katie , I don’t see anything in those verses about repenting! Does that mean we don’t have to ?
True, so must one understand the Holy Spirit before their baptsim is valid…which takes us to the end of Acts 2:38 that is so often left out
Chris wrote:
WHERE in the Bible does it point-blank say that without water baptism, one is not saved?
Where does it say point-blank that without repentance we’re not saved? If Jesus said that “he that believes and is baptized shall be saved” that pretty much sums it up.
Chris wrote:
Doesn’t it more valid for others if they choose to gloat their knowledge of chapter numbers, either
Quoting scripture to back up what we say is hardly gloating. If faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God, then I would say that without actually hearing or reading God’s word anything else brings about a false faith.
Chris wrote:
I haven’t seen any scripture backing up what the “Church of Christ In Name Only” of Robertson, Oldfield and Fields are preaching about baptism required for salvation, either. Not really.
I’m sure any honest person would admit that nearly everything they teach about baptism is followed by book, chapter and verse. I’ve watched enough videos online to know that is true.
Faithful, we have been having a civil conversation, so please keep it this way…ok And you are making points we have already coverd and its not pick on Katie day. We all are just having some peacful chat and want to keep it that way
If you want to get technical Faithful (by the way… so glad you decided to join us today)…
I look at the passage in Romans and can’t see how repentance isn’t a part of that. To confess Jesus as Lord would mean to renounce whatever sin it is in your life that has kept you from Jesus… hmm.. sounds like repentance to me.
I realize it doesn’t say the word “REPENT” but I don’t think it takes a lot of commen sense to understand what it means to confess Jesus as Lord… or does it?
So I can’t talk to Katie Randy?
Thanks Randy… Faithful and Johnny just have a personal vendetta against me as of recently.. no biggie though 🙂 doesn’t hurt my feelings any
Katie,
Confession and repentance are two totally different things. To confess Him is to verbally acknowledge that Jesus is the Son of God, that He is who He said He was.
Repentance is a change of mind followed by a change of actions.
You could easily confess Jesus was the Son of God and never turn from your past sins. There are plenty of people in the world today who acknowledge that Jesus is Christ yet they live sinful lives.
Faithful,I know you haven’t been rude yet, but you tend to take that road, so I just thought Id put up some stop signs.
Why is that when Peter had convinced the people that they had killed the Christ and they ask what to do repenting was one of the things he told them to do then. By your logic they would have already done that.
Ac 2:37 ¶ Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
“Chris, you’ve got a lot of nice words, but I haven’t seen any scriptures to back them up.”
I am far from being a ultra-conservative Church of Christ”er”.
However, scripture, the early church fathers, and history point to baptism as the “entrance” into the faith, into the Church and most importantly into Christ. It is a mute point that I can not believe is still debated. Where many go to far is limiting the grace of God or the desire of the person not baptized.
Whoa whoa whoa!
“Repentance is a change of mind followed by a change of actions… You could easily confess Jesus was the Son of God and never turn from your past sins. There are plenty of people in the world today who acknowledge that Jesus is Christ yet they live sinful lives.”
Corey, are you suggesting that NOT getting baptized is a SIN?!?!?
“Where many go to far is limiting the grace of God or the desire of the person not baptized”
– I agree totally !
Chris wrote:
Corey, are you suggesting that NOT getting baptized is a SIN?!?!?
Not being baptized is a direct violation of a direct commandment of God, so yes, it is absolutely a sin.
It does not seem that anyone is saying they are “against” baptism.
There just seems to be some disagreement over method, candidate’s age, and full scriptural meaning.
Matthew 28
18Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
Would anyone say that this is improper baptismal instructions? Or should Jesus have given specific instructions about being mentally aware of redemption, proper age, proper method, etc.
On May 29, 2008 at 2:28 pm coreydavis Said:
Chris wrote:
Corey, are you suggesting that NOT getting baptized is a SIN?!?!?
Not being baptized is a direct violation of a direct commandment of God, so yes, it is absolutely a sin
-Could one be forgiven who does not repent as Peter commanded then to DO ( Acts 2:38 ) if not, they are still in their sins, right. Peter also tied baptism to this by using the word AND…so it seems one would also be in his sins if he refuses baptism as were the Lawyers and Pharisee who refused Johns baptism ( they were said to be rejecting the council of God )
DMH wrote:
There just seems to be some disagreement over method, candidate’s age, and full scriptural meaning.
And all of the disagreements boil down to the doctrines of men clouding the word of God.
Method – there is no argument among religious scholars that baptism in the NT is by immersion in water. The word “baptize” in a transliteration, not a translation. The translation is immersion.
Candidate’s age – there is no example of anyone other than an adult being immersed in the NT. The individuals were all old enough to follow the other commandments of belief, confession and repentance.
Full scriptural meaning – again, all of the things baptism does are laid out in scriptures.
I would say that there clearly are some who are “against” baptism.
“I would say that there clearly are some who are “against” baptism.”
Then you say wrong.
It is not at all that there are some who are against baptism. But there are plenty who, not without reason, do not believe in adding on to the completed work of Christ.
As He said, “It is finished.”
And while I have been baptized also and have encouraged fellow believers to take that step, it is not possibly something that validates, ratifies, or otherwise enhances one’s salvation which comes by the grace of God, regardless of our works.
And since you have admitted that you SERIOUSLY believe that not being baptized is a sin… sir, I honestly don’t have anything else to say to you. Because yours is a belief so entirely beyond anything that Christ and His apostles preached, that I doubt anything I could say would make any difference. Never have I met someone who has said that lack of baptism is a dire *sin*.
In fact, I don’t really know how to take you seriously, after stating something like that.
Does this mean that you DO believe that Dianne Odell is not in Heaven because she was never baptized in believer’s baptism by immersion? Because that is the only inescapable conclusion that one can possibly draw from your arguments.
Chris wrote:
As He said, “It is finished.”
Correct. Jesus’ role was finished. That doesn’t mean our part is finished or everyone who would be saved was saved at that moment.
Chris wrote:
And while I have been baptized also and have encouraged fellow believers to take that step, it is not possibly something that validates, ratifies, or otherwise enhances one’s salvation which comes by the grace of God, regardless of our works.
So are you saying that we aren’t expected to do anything? I’m sure you’d say we’re to believe and repent, both of which I can prove to you with scriptures are works. Please show me a verse where baptism is called a work. (Hint: you can’t)
Chris wrote:
Because yours is a belief so entirely beyond anything that Christ and His apostles preached
False. I can show you where Jesus, Peter, Paul and Philip the evangelist all preached baptism. You can’t show me where any of them preached “faith only” or anything of the sort.
Chris wrote:
Does this mean that you DO believe that Dianne Odell is not in Heaven because she was never baptized in believer’s baptism by immersion? Because that is the only inescapable conclusion that one can possibly draw from your arguments.
#1: You don’t know if she was baptized or not.
#2: I’ve already explained this here earlier. If you choose not to read it, that is up to you.
I can Corey. Col. 2:11-12….God at work in baptism :)…but yes, youre right, its not a work we do that merits forgivenss. To be honest baptism is the most passive act we DO. Repenting is the hardest…
Thanks for the clarification Randy. What I was saying was show me where baptism is called a work that men do.
What you posted proves my point – baptism’s work is done by God, not man. And yes, I also believe that repentance is the hardest part. Too bad people want to make baptism the hard part.
From my speaking to others, it seems that most people are hung-up on baptism, thinking it to be a work. Okay, baptism is a work, but nobody is saying it merits forgiveness. Repentance is also a work, but again, nobody is saying it merits forgiveness. These are acts of obedient faith, not of works lest we boast. When the leper was ask to dip in the water to be healed, was it power in the water, or was he healed because of his obedient faith? Did he earn his healing by dipping or did he receive his healing by obeying?
When they walked around the walls and the walls fell down, did the walls fall due their feet vibrating the ground, did the walls fall due to their works-walking, or did God cause the walls to fall down upon their obedience – same with baptism, God does the workm we just simply come in faith and do as he says.
Another good study is ( baptized unto Moses ) at what point were they free from the slave masters
If not being baptized is a sin, is it a sin that can be forgiven?
Is improper baptism (i.e. not full immersion, improper candidate) a sin as well? Can it be forgiven?
Is acting upon a misunderstanding or adhering to a differing interpretation of scripture in regards to baptism a sin on the same level as flat out not doing it?
DMH wrote:
If not being baptized is a sin, is it a sin that can be forgiven?
Only Christians are promised forgiveness. Since baptism is essential to becoming a Christian I see nothing in scriptures to show how an un-baptized individual (who was physically and mentally able) could be forgiven.
DMH wrote:
Is improper baptism (i.e. not full immersion, improper candidate) a sin as well? Can it be forgiven?
If you knowingly are baptized in an improper way (sprinkling, pouring or as an outward sign rather than for the remission of sins) it would be sinful. I would say improper baptism is not really baptism, which takes us back to my first point. Can it be forgiven? See my answer to your next question.
DMH wrote:
Is acting upon a misunderstanding or adhering to a differing interpretation of scripture in regards to baptism a sin on the same level as flat out not doing it?
All I can say is that when you’ve been taught, or learn the truth and you reject it, it is sin. What will God do with those who didn’t have a scriptural baptism, but never knew the truth? Again I say, God is merciful and just. His decision will be the final one and it will be just.
“Again I say, God is merciful and just. His decision will be the final one and it will be just.”
Even though I disagree with most of what you have said, I wholeheartedly agree and commend this statement.
Just want to address my last post regarding repentance and Romans 10:9-10.. in that verse it says that “if you confess with your mouth that Jesus IS Lord”…
follow my train of thought.
If the word “Lord” means master, then to confess someone as Lord is more than just saying you believe in someone or something. Confessing that someone or something is Lord is pledging a certain amount of allegiance, saying that this someone/thing is your master.
If prior to Jesus we are sinners, then “sin” is in effect our lord, our master.
So in order to confess Jesus as Lord one must turn from their sin master and turn to Jesus as master, which would be right in line with the definition of what it means to repent.
I agree with you Katie far as them working hand in hand. But, verse 10 holds some truth so often over looked. 9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Notice with the heart man believes UNTO ( eis ) righteousness…in other words toward righteousness. ok, follow the rest of the verse with this in mind. And with the mouth confession is made UNTO ( eis ) salvation. In other words confess is towards salvation, again keep this thought in your head and turn to Acts 2:38 ( same greek word EIS ) Now ask yourslef what did Peter mean by repent and be baptized ( eis ) UNTO towards forgiveness of sins, so can one be forgiven prior to repenting and being baptized?
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
(KJV)
Ac 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Ac 22:8 And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.
Ac 26:15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
(KJV)
In acts 2:37 they BELIEVED they had killed the Chrsit and were told to repent when thay had were convicted. Why were thwy told to do something they had already done according to you?
On May 29, 2008 at 4:36 pm faithful Said:
In acts 2:37 they BELIEVED they had killed the Chrsit and were told to repent when thay had were convicted. Why were thwy told to do something they had already done according to you?
-Who are you addressing Mitch ?
Katie
who else would faithful be talking to? 🙂
I am his and Johnny’s resident baptist du jour… 😉
If baptism doesn’t do what many here are claiming it does. Then, what is it? Simply a symbol? A “rite of passage”? We are so caught up in the “faith only” doctrine, that we simply ignore what Sacred Scripture and the Church universal has always taught concerning baptism (Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Lutherans, Anglicans)
Katie sorry you missed the show tune in tonite i have big surprise for you
10 pm ch 39 or 19 in dville
to all the real people on here
i find it odd that nathan did not let my post go through yesterday that was from a presby site that showed the church of Christ grow 150,000 in 10 years and it was mostly baptist and presbyterians that obey
one was the governor’s wife in KY
whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy nathan
Katie sorry you missed the show tune in tonite i have big surprise for you
10 pm ch 39 or 19 in dville
to all the real people on here
i find it odd that nathan did not let my post go through yesterday that was from a presby site that showed the church of Christ grow 150,000 in 10 years and it was mostly baptist and presbyterians that obey
one was the governor’s wife in KY
whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy nathan
Katie
have a big surprise for you tonite
ch 19 dville 10 James Oldfield then me at 11
Correct to all
I did find a call that came in from the Claudine post
i have called her back now
thanks for that
let you know
you guys let me know what the big suprise is for Katie, and why is this about Katie anyways?
Johnny/Mitch: why do you feel the need to make this about Katie?
On May 29, 2008 at 4:39 pm churchesofchrist Said:
On May 29, 2008 at 4:36 pm faithful Said:
In acts 2:37 they BELIEVED they had killed the Chrsit and were told to repent when thay had were convicted. Why were thwy told to do something they had already done according to you?
-Who are you addressing Mitch ?
On May 29, 2008 at 5:18 pm Mitch Said:
Katie
-We already covered this Mitch. But thanks for you input.
hi chris,
i believe you should be baptised and have been.
please show me where christ said or otherwise
implied that this act of obedience had to be with
the prior understanding that it was for the remission of sin. in fact show me where the apostles said that one must understand this prior to baptism.
thanks lee
Lee, your statement about understanding baptism as the church of Christ is where I stand also. I do agree with their teaching that baptism and forgiveness are connected, but can they prove one must fully/perfectly understand this before God will act….
woohoo, a surprise just for little ol’ me…
yippie skippy
I’ll be busy until 11 watching the season finale of “LOST” 🙂
please let us know on here what your suprise is – as I will not be watching them. I am thinking about watching them again, but if they are still just slamming on people, I will just watch something else other than the Johnny Springer show.
Randy watch LOST with me, it’ll be much more thought provoking that Johnny Springer.
Great discussion, folks.
Johnny, I did post your message. I am not sure why it got caught up in my filter – but you can look back through and you’ll find it. It might be that if you put a link in a comment, then it will get filtered.
Meanwhile, please notice, JR, that the adults were having a good discussion before you reared your head again. Do not, and I mean NOT, get on here and try to distract with your non-relevant nonsense again. If you want to focus on something irrelevant for your broadcast, that’s your business. But I do not want a repeat of the other day on my blog.
Capiche?
By the way, Johnny, three posts were in the filter just now because you misspelled your own name.
Three times.
Please take the advice of others and proofread your posts before you hit “submit comment”.
Thank you.
well lucky for me I guess I don’t get whatever station it is that Johnny is only tonight at 11pm because my cable is Johnny free at 11… oh well
“Only Christians are promised forgiveness. Since baptism is essential to becoming a Christian I see nothing in scriptures to show how an un-baptized individual (who was physically and mentally able) could be forgiven.”
Actually, the Bible DOES NOT PREACH AT ALL that “Christians” are promised forgiveness.
People are forgiven if they are penitent and come to God and ask His forgiveness for their sins.
They are NOT forgiven because they become Christians!
They are also NOT forgiven just because they choose to join with a church through baptism.
They are ESPECIALLY NOT FORGIVEN just because they choose to join with a very peculiar “Church of Christ” or any other denomination.
Don’t you get it? Our notion of so-called “religion” DOES NOT MATTER TO GOD!!! What He is concerned with is whether we seek Him out and ask for His forgiveness. If He wanted mere “Christians” He could have carved them out of rocks.
This is more evidence for the spiritual blindness of Robertson, Oldfield and Fields: that they put down “denominations” so much. That’s ALL they care to see and talk about on their programs. To be born again and take on the new character that is ours in Christ is to PUT TO DEATH the old nature of this world, including the temptation to see others only in the light of whatever “groups” they belong to.
I’ve seen it especially bad from Johnny Robertson. He doesn’t give a flying rat’s butt about *individuals*. He’s too fixated on GROUPS of individuals, and putting them down. Hence this “Church of Christ”‘s obsession with “unity in Christ”… which is NOTHING like the unity that believers are supposed to have.
Wow, quite a good discussion today! I was out most of the day, so I missed it. I will try to throw my 2 cents in later.
But, for now-Katie, I knew we were kindred sisters-I am a Lost fan, too! In fact, I am watching it right now (TIVO)-crazy show!! This is my first season to watch it, and what a ride!!
When someone finds out what Johnny’s surprise is, would you please enlighten us? 🙂
OK, back to regularly scheduled programming…
okay so LOST was crazy last night!! I can’t believe we’ll have to wait until next February to get the next installment!
But I missed the big surprise. I don’t have comcast cable, so I think that’s why I couldn’t find ol’Johnny boy at 11pm. Oh well… no loss.
“Lost” fans here also (my wife and I). I’ve a part in Theatre Guild of Rockingham County’s production of “Children of Eden” and we had practice last night and I kept hoping we could finish early so I could race home and watch the season finale. We got out 10 minutes after 9.
So I got home as fast as I could, and we started watching it from the beginning off the DVR. We fast-forwarded through the commercials. By the 1-hour mark, halfway into the episode, we’d caught up and could watch the second half along with everyone else 🙂
This is gonna be a LOOOOOOOONG 8 months until the next one.
Nice Chris, lol
I got my husband addicted to LOST too, it just drives him nuts that for every question that gets “answered”, a million more questions arise.
Which if you think about it, is kind of how things work on here. We ask questions and we get more questions 🙂
Why is it until February? Don’t new seasons typically begin in the fall? Does it have to do with the writer’s strike for some reason?
Chris wrote:
Actually, the Bible DOES NOT PREACH AT ALL that “Christians” are promised forgiveness.
People are forgiven if they are penitent and come to God and ask His forgiveness for their sins.
They are NOT forgiven because they become Christians!
They are also NOT forgiven just because they choose to join with a church through baptism.
Wow. That is completely false. Jesus said that He is the way, the truth and the life and no one comes to the Father except through HIM. That means you must be in Christ (making you a Christian) to have forgiveness. Are you saying that the Jews of today who reject Christ are forgiven if they come to the same God and ask for forgiveness yet reject His Son?
There is no forgiveness without the blood of Christ. If you belong to Christ you are a Christian and you have access to his blood which provides forgiveness.
We don’t join a denomination through baptism. After doing the things God has asked us to do (believing, repenting, confessing and being baptized for the remission of sins) the Lord adds us to His church (Acts 2:47). I joined the Lord’s church (singular) when I obeyed Him, as did all who have obeyed the Lord’s commandments in the way He gave them.
Lee wrote:
please show me where christ said or otherwise
implied that this act of obedience had to be with
the prior understanding that it was for the remission of sin. in fact show me where the apostles said that one must understand this prior to baptism.
It is implied because that was the only way it was taught in the Bible. Just because men came along and tried to change the scriptural meaning of baptism doesn’t mean that they are right. I can show you where one apostle (Paul) said that there is a right way of being baptized and demonstrated that knowledge of why we’re baptized matters – in Acts 19 with the Ephesians.
Faithful, one thing I learned early on was how often context is ignored and application made to personal belief/views. I heard Johnny use one verse one night and directed it to people who do not believe as he – I wrote him and his very words were “cant I make application” in others words he was saying he could pull a verse from its context and give his own personal spin. Does he have this right? NO! And if he did, would not others also have this right? Below is the verse he quoted out of context.
“If any man come and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed, for he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.”
Factional proponents have made the term “this doctrine” refer to every traditional teaching around which a party has rallied. As I pointed out to Johnny – John was writing to combat Gnosticism, one of the most dangerous philosophies to threaten the Way in all of its history. It was an attack upon the very foundation of the faith. Johnny has no right to yank this God breathed verse from its context and make it fit his beliefs/views. The verse John wrote was not talking about the Martinsville church of Christ doctrine or any set of opinions that Johnny has. It was clearly referring to Gnosticism and if you study Gnosticism, you will see this does not fit the people Johnny so often condemns.
Nathan said Why is it until February? Don’t new seasons typically begin in the fall? Does it have to do with the writer’s strike for some reason?
Actually ABC decided they wanted LOST to run through 2010 but the writers of LOST said the story line wouldn’t run that long so they have decided to do 2 half seasons… feb ’09 and then feb ’10
It’s ABC’s evil plan to string us along for an extra year.
Corey,
Was Jesus a “Christian”?
Christian means a follower of Christ. How could Jesus be a follower of himself?
You do realize that Jesus was born a Jew, and lived His entire life as a Jew, yes?
You do realize that Jesus did away with Judaism when He gave His life and replaced the law of Moses with His law, yes?
On May 30, 2008 at 8:26 am Chris Knight Said:
Corey,
Was Jesus a “Christian”?
Chris, I dont follow…what are you getting at
Matthew 5:17 – “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.”
I thought you knew scripture, Corey.
Randy,
Corey is strongly implying that one MUST be considered a Christian in order to be saved. When Jesus Himself was never anything other than a Jew.
My point is: things like the names we give to our creeds to not matter, only our faith. Not even the label “Christian” has any meaning to God. Just our faith.
Do you understand the word fulfill? Jesus said that none of the law would pass away until He had fulfilled it. Over and over again Paul condemned the Jewish converts who still clung to the old law. I ask you again, are Jews today who reject Jesus as the Christ able to get forgiveness?
You said:
Not even the label “Christian” has any meaning to God. Just our faith.
Again, that is just false. Isaiah 62:2 says:
The nations will see your righteousness,And all kings your glory;And you will be called by a new name Which the mouth of the LORD will designate.
1 Peter 4:16 says:
but if anyone suffers as a Christian, he is not to be ashamed, but is to glorify God in this name.
Corey,
I’ve never heard it seriously argued, ANYWHERE, that Isaiah meant the literal term “Christian” when he wrote that we would be called by “a new name”.
As for Jesus and the fulfillment of the law…
Jesus was pointing out that He had come to fulfill what the law was meant to do in the first place: point people toward their need for God. But through the law, that need had become a system of burdensome rules and regulations that did NOT draw people to God. If anything, it drove them away from Him.
God gave the law so that people might come to Him and they still failed. It illustrated our need for His mercy and grace. And Jesus DID fulfill the law in that respect, and in doing so He did away with the rituals and regulations.
Would you have us go back to the same harsh legalism that the law had turned into?
I’ve already asked twice. Will you answer this question:
…are Jews today who reject Jesus as the Christ able to get forgiveness?
Not any more than some so-called “Christians” who reject Jesus as the Christ by their insistence on legalism as opposed to grace are able to get forgiveness.
Some claim the Jews crucified Him once. But some “Christians” would crucify Him again, it seems…
Just a simple yes or no would suffice. Can a “good” Jew today who denies that Jesus was the Christ obtain forgiveness from God?
You still don’t get it, do you Corey?
GOD DOES NOT CARE ABOUT WHETHER WE ARE “CHRISTIAN” OR “JEW” OR ANYTHING ELSE! HE DOES NOT CARE WHAT WE CALL OURSELVES!!
God is only interested in whether we do seek forgiveness from Him.
In the end, that faith in Him is something that must transcend earthly terminology. To say that we are saved because we are “Christian” or “Church of Christ” is to deny the new creation that we are called to be in Him.
Do you actually think that Heaven is going to be filled with “Christians”? Heaven is for those who love Him, not for those who love an earthly label.
Or maybe you really can’t understand that, and I shouldn’t hold it against you. You only seem willing to grasp the legalism, and not the grace.
You’re the one who doesn’t get it. Since you won’t answer the question it seems clear to me that you believe that even Jews who won’t accept Jesus as Christ can still be forgiven. You are denying Christ when He said that no one comes to the Father except through Him. You can’t get to the Father unless you go through the Son. Period. Grace is promised to the followers of Christ, not the followers of Moses’ law.
I do love a label. I love the name of Christ, and as Peter wrote, I am happy to suffer for that name and I rejoice in it.
You seem to have no idea of what grace really is or who it is for. Heaven is for those that love Him. Those who love Him follow His commandments. It is through obedience to God that we show our love. Love is never expressed to God as merely emotion, it is service, faithfulness and sacrifice. How did God show love? By doing something. He sent His son to die for the sins of the world. You seem to have no regard for that sacrifice as you think that there is salvation to be found outside of it.
On May 30, 2008 at 8:17 am Randy Said: As I pointed out to Johnny – John was writing to combat Gnosticism, one of the most dangerous philosophies to threaten the Way in all of its history.
Sorry guys can’t relate about “Lost” show oh well, maybe its a generational thing. lol Anyway, Randy your reference to Gnosticism caught my attention. I’ve recently did a little research on the Gnostics but not much. I didn’t realize they were referenced in the Bible. The little I know is that “Gnostic” is the Greek word (I think) for “all knowing” or something like that and thus the word agnostic meaning “not knowing.” Anyway, evidently, these folks thoughy they were all knowing about God and basically had everything figured out among a few other odd beliefs they had that I can’t remember right now. I have to say it did make me think of the hyercon c of c mindset I grew up with. Everything known, all figured out, we KNOW, however you DO NOT sort of thing, a simple 5-step plan etc. It made sense to me that Christ or the Apostles would speak against it I just didn’t know they actually did.
Corey,
I don’t believe there is salvation apart from Christ’s finished work on the cross.
I also don’t believe that there is NOTHING we can do on our own, that can earn salvation any more than what Christ has done on the cross.
If I recall correctly, the greatest commandment of all is to love one another. As the apostle John is reported to have said in his advanced age, “If this much is done, then that is enough.”
How is trying to compel others to follow rituals in the name of “obedience” showing love for them at all? That’s not freeing others. That’s just making them slaves to the law, as if they were never free from it to begin with.
You are arguing that no one comes to God without going through Christ and also following the law. But isn’t this subjecting Christ to crucifiction all over again?
I think what it is, is that you aren’t confident enough in your own salvation. Same with Robertson and Oldfield and Fields. So y’all are trying to over-compensate. You hate yourself for how inadequate you feel and so you try to make others feel more inadequate than you.
Corey, you really don’t have faith in Christ’s finished work, do you? And neither do Robertson and the others in the “Church of Christ” around here.
That is why y’all can’t be free to know the joy of His love and grace and mercy. This is why God cannot bless what you do in His name. And indeed, God hasn’t blessed the “ministry” of Robertson, Oldfield, and Fields. They have more than enough money to keep broadcasting, and no doubt some are persuaded to join their church and be baptized or whatever…
But what is the real fruit of the spirit from them?
If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. — 1st Corinthians 13:1-3
This kind of legalism that you and Robertson and the others preach, has not love.
And thus, y’all gain nothing.
NOTHING = ANYTHING in my post above.
Bad grammar is the price you pay for working on three projects late into the night 🙂
Knight said
In the end, that faith in Him is something that must transcend earthly terminology. To say that we are saved because we are “Christian” or “Church of Christ” is to deny the new creation that we are called to be in Him.
transcends earthly terminology”
talking about a gnostic!
Col 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
you kinda got beyond yourself there chris star Wars New York posted ….I’ve a part in Theatre Guild of Rockingham County’s production of “Children of Eden”(look at me everyone I am an actor toooooo!)
Dear Johnny Robertson,
So now that I have your attention, might I ask you again…
How IS what you are doing possibly showing others the love of Christ?
You still haven’t answered that.
And now you are attacking me because I’m a Star Wars fan, of all things?!
You’re acting pretty infantile, dude.
I know it’s you, by the way. I saw where you visited my blog earlier this morning, and spent quite a bit of time looking around on it.
So Johnny, once again: HOW is what you, and Oldfield, and Fields, doing, illustrating the love and grace of Jesus Christ to those who don’t know Him? WHY should the lost of this world look at you guys and be persuaded at all?
You have nothing to show for your work, because it is not motivated in love. You are too enamored with your sense of power and leadership… but if you have not love, then these things are utterly worthless.
Why do you make yourself so big and God so very small, Johnny?
By the way Johnny, you’re invited to come see the Theatre Guild of Rockingham County’s production of “Children of Eden”. Performances are June 20-22 and June 27-29 at Rockingham Community College. Tickets are $10 for adults. More information is on the Guild’s website at tgrc-nc.com
Among the themes of “Children of Eden” are love and forgiveness. Maybe you could learn something from it.
Chris I’ved seen your post and so called logic. It’s rediculous. I feel sorry for you . With that type of use of logic you must have a very remedial manual type of job that doesn’t require you to exercise your mind very much. Maybe working cross word puzzles or something like that would help you stimulate your brain. It will be painful at first but it will pay off. Hang in there
from Mr. Answer to faithful:
I would suggest that you refrain from such sorts of comments. It doesn’t help your credibility on this board or elsewhere. Please keep your comments civil, and mature.
Thank you.
Actually, I’m self-employed. Doing video production and filmmaking. Also get asked to consult on various cases from time to time.
That is amazing
Another great and uplifting post from faithful.
Actually, his is one of the most logical posts I have read and he speaks MUCH truth!! You have asked some great questions, Chris. I wish they would actually answer them, because I have wondered much of the same.
I think one the biggest problems is that their ultimate goal is not to show people the love of Christ or glorify God; but to feed their own egos and agendas. That is the sad part.
“faithful”, you are the real one I feel sorry for because you are under the spell of the puppet master.
Here’s a question for faithful, TD, Corey, Johnny, Norm, James or any other person who agrees with their doctrine:
Do you folks teach/believe that one must believe and obey all of the New Testament writings in order to be saved?
Matt 11:16 little children,
I forgot to post this when I saw Chris pathetic choice of subjects.
this is from a local news paper in her home town Chris
and I hope you all remember how TERRIBLE Johnny was when he used the death of the boys in Henry Co to teach the error of the Methodist
People from the community remembered stories told of Dianne’s life through the years. When Dianne was able to be out of the iron lung for three or four hours at a time, she was baptized at age 13 in the bathtub at home, against her doctor’s recommendations. She said she knew such joy to be born again.
Let me see if I can think of all the bad things everyone said about me using that
that goes for you then Chris
But really I appreciate you helping our community to see the level of conviction that comes from a TRUE believer. Even an Iron lung could not prevail against her willingness to obey her Lord.
Did someone say “in Alaska it toooo cold” to be baptized
I remember baptizing a young man in shark infested waters of iKiribati Central Pacific
Happy hunting obe one
you will have to try harder than this
are you still going to call in?
If not Corey will get you (he lied Corey)
are you all still searching for some instance where a person cannot be baptized?
it must be really tough on you all to be proved WRONG all the time.
I tell you this is fast becoming my favorite site.
Chris you are the best
our youtube going out to praise Diane (since you brought her up) is a great shout out to how the Devil really is stupid.
Diane was the # one google name yesterday. How well do you think you question being read on my show will do?
It may get you in the New York times again as the most unkind person alive.
Corey
why dont you sit out for a while instead of always compromising?
I knew you would wimp out on that question as soon as it showed up.
Don’t you know what Heb 1:3 teaches Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
God’s word will be upheld.
Did yu think we would take a hit from the likes of Chris Knight when we teach the glorious gospel of the King.
You are hurting the cause
in case you tuned in late here is Chris horrible pathetic use of Diane Odell’s memory to try and get him off on the judgment day for telling everyone they don’t need to be baptized
Chris said earlier; regarding Diane Odell’s passing;
“I’m fairly certain that given her condition, that Dianne was never baptized. There’s no way it could have been done without killing her, most likely. At least she was never baptized by immersion, which is what you guys claim all the time is an absolute obligation in order to have salvation. I’ve even heard you claim, on numerous occasions, that if a person comes to believe in Christ but is not baptized before death, that such a person is damned forever.”
Johnny, James, and Norm: Are you really prepared to go on live television and say that it is with 100% conviction that you believe that God did not allow Dianne Odell into His kingdom yesterday morning, all because it was impossible for her to be water baptized? Or might you possibly even argue, per your logic, that Dianne Odell should have left her iron lung and risked water baptism if she wanted salvation? Because that is what you are claiming, whether you want to admit it or not.
I’m planning on calling some or all of you live on the air to ask you that, if you aren’t willing to provide an answer in any other way. If you won’t take my phone call, then maybe Charles Roark will let us debate the matter live on WGSR. Is that an open challenge? You bet it is.
So what’s your take on it, Johnny and James and Norm: Are you seriously ready to condemn such a person to Hell with your legendary zealousness?
But I’ve no doubt that Dianne is in the presence of the Lord that she loved, and for Whom she shared that love toward others in her earthly life. That is the beautiful thing about a God Who has abundant grace and mercy.
Thanks again Chris for helping the Lord’s people!
Chris , I’m curious what denomination are you a part of?
Johnny,
Your spitefulness… and your eager to be spiteful… destroys whatever testimony you could possibly have.
Haven’t you ever READ or LISTENED to your own words?
If Dianne Odell was baptized, then I am happy that she was able to do that. I am happy that *anyone* would choose to be baptized as a sign of their commitment to follow Christ.
But baptism is still not a requisite for salvation.
And your gloating about how she was baptized does not change that at all.
In fact, your attitude now that we know she was baptized proves that you are a much MORE hateful “Christian” than you’ve ever shown us before.
It proves to us that you don’t even value baptism for salvation more than you value baptism as an opportunity to screech out to the world “HEY I’M JOHNNY ROBERTSON AND I’M BETTER THAN YOU!”
You serve a “king” all right, Johnny. You serve the god of this world. And I don’t know if your message is as old as the New Testament, but it is certainly as old as Babylon.
By the way, “Jeremy Bentham” ranked higher as a Google search name yesterday, according to my sources. And The Knight Shift blog wound up being one of the most-hit because of it.
And I do know of a person who was killed before she could be baptized. She lived long enough to come to put her faith in Jesus Christ, and I saw her have a beautiful and sweet experience in coming to know Him. Satan did everything he could to keep her from coming to Christ, but she still found her Lord and Savior.
You so do not want to as much dare as tell me that she is in Hell today because she was not baptized. You REALLY don’t want to go there, Johnny Robertson.
But we know who you are, and what you stand for. And now with your own words as testimony against you, recorded on this blog…
…I trust that others can make their own judgment about you as well.
You’ve revealed yourself to us today, Johnny Robertson, as you never have before. And I don’t know if you even care to understand that.
You have demonstrated that you idolize your denomination. And that you idolize your own self. You do NOT follow Christ at all. If you did you would have more faith in His grace than you have in your own cowardice.
May God have mercy on you.
“Chris , I’m curious what denomination are you a part of?”
None.
Too cold in Alaska to be baptized? Who ever would claim such a thing would really be ignorant of the facts. Do people live in Alaska? Indoors? Today the high was 49 f and the low 40f. That’s outside.Last time I checked water still didn’t freeze above 32f. I would think that common sense would tell us that folks that live there would live indoors with heating units for the structers. It seems as though common sense isn’t so common here.
So Chris you don’t worship any where? Do you believe in God or that Jesus was raised from the dead?
He’s baiting guys-just keep continuing to pray for him 🙂
We know the truth, and God does, too…so just keep praying for him!
“So Chris you don’t worship any where?”
Your question was “what denomination are you a part of?” You did not in any way ask me about worship.
“Do you believe in God or that Jesus was raised from the dead?”
Yes. But how can there be one without the other? You should have asked “Do you believe in God and that Jesus was raised from the dead?”
An even better question would be “Do you believe in God and that Jesus rose from the dead?”
So Chris I see you are ashamed to answer. ok
“He’s baiting guys-just keep continuing to pray for him :)”
I’ve seen this before, many times.
If he were not doing so much grievous harm to the cause of Christ, it would not be so bad.
I am convinced that the answer to his legalism, is to counter it with grace and love.
But me being the guy that God made me to be, I also cannot help but point out his absurdity by being absurd.
“We know the truth, and God does, too…so just keep praying for him!”
Here is where the wheat is cleaved from the chaff: we would – and do – pray for him. It remains an open question as to whether he would pray for us, however…
Chris where do you worship?
“So Chris I see you are ashamed to answer. ok”
That makes no sense. What do you think I’m ashamed of? Where did you possibly derive THAT from…?
(at this point Chris wonders if “faithful” is a person or a 2nd year community college student’s artificial intelligence programming project)
Seriously faithful, that kind of statement doesn’t make sense at all.
“On May 31, 2008 at 2:50 pm Chris Knight Said:
“So Chris you don’t worship any where?”
Your question was “what denomination are you a part of?” You did not in any way ask me about worship.
“Do you believe in God or that Jesus was raised from the dead?”
Yes. But how can there be one without the other? You should have asked “Do you believe in God and that Jesus was raised from the dead?”
An even better question would be “Do you believe in God and that Jesus rose from the dead?””
For all I know you are a jew. Do they believe both. I forgot I was asking someone who could not understand something so simple . I’ll try and type slower
“Chris where do you worship?”
Here.
faithless isnt praying for you,
and if he were no ones listening.
yeah i said it.
lee
Well Chris your on a site called answering the church but you won’t give a staraight answer so what should I think . Eith you’re too stupid to understand tha question or ashamed. Which one?
So you’re worshipping on this site . Interesting.
faithful, I’ve given two straight answers already. As straight as they could possibly be.
What more do you want?
“So you’re worshipping on this site . Interesting.”
No.
You still do not understand.
I worship here.
Chris your kindness was really felt when you said above
“dare”
are you a “fighten” baptist?
“dare” me
So since this site is not a church , and you worship here, then you are not a member of any church?
So since you worship here and the site is not a church am I to think that you are not a member of a church?
Php 1:20 According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.
Looks like Chris is a closet christian
I know Chris-I completely understand, especially when you have seen so many people heart by this attitude and behavior. I absolutely loathe what he is doing and continues to do, and how much he is really hurting the cause of Christ. It is absolutely despicable, I understand. It is sad and really unjustifiable that they are so loyal to their institution over Jesus-and that they will continue to preach a different message, even when they have been shown otherwise. I just do not want to stoop to his level. I am also incredibly thankful and KNOW that it is not up to him or any of us about who God will save or will not save, and I have full assurance in my Father. That is what I continue to try and focus on 🙂
I do continue to pray for him because God has called me to-though I don’t know if he would return the same courtesy…I know prayer is a mighty powerful thing and God has been known to change hearts before. With God, ALL things really are possible.
“faithful”, do you really think your behavior is Christ-like? Why are you always on the attack? Is this more of Johnny’s training?
Because I am pretty positive that you cannot find a Biblical reason (without taking it out of context) to actually justify the way you are acting.
Chris
so what are you saying
Chris said;
And I do know of a person who was killed before she could be baptized. She lived long enough to come to put her faith in Jesus Christ, and I saw her have a beautiful and sweet experience in coming to know Him. Satan did everything he could to keep her from coming to Christ, but she still found her Lord and Savior.
You so do not want to as much dare as tell me that she is in Hell today because she was not baptized. You REALLY don’t want to go there, Johnny Robertson.
Are you saying that this woman never had a chance in all the years of her life to be baptized.
You are saying that all her life that she chose not to be baptized before what ever happened to her is excused by you as ….
no amount of threats from you will keep us from refuting this as a case where “some one could not have been baptized …”
Johnny-stop playing God. You simply do not have that power-period.
Chris if you answers are so straight why can’t we tell what you’re trying to say?
chris are you still calling in and debating on Sunday nite?
or did your little plan back fire
Johnny did the wind just blow in here?
“So since you worship here and the site is not a church am I to think that you are not a member of a church?”
I am not talking about the site.
I worship here.
Because you don’t WANT to understand.
NTFKC
I thought I heard something
Where is here?
Yep, I heard a resounding gong and a clanging cymbal.
“Are you saying that this woman never had a chance in all the years of her life to be baptized.
You are saying that all her life that she chose not to be baptized before what ever happened to her is excused by you as ….”
Without knowing anything else about the matter, you jump to conclusion. I didn’t even do that with our discussion about Dianne Odell. I only said that presumably, her condition never allowed for her baptism. And I’m glad that she was able to.
Just out of curiosity Johnny: is there anything special or magical about baptism water? Or is there something about the words that are used when ministering baptism? Because if baptism IS required for salvation, then it logically follows that either the water or the intonation of the ritual is the causative agent for such a reaction.
“Where is here?”
“Here” for you is where you are. “Here” for me is where I am.
I do not believe that you are here at the moment.
Chris
did this all back fire on you
did you see the website about Diane?
one of the highlights of her life she said was to be baptized.
isnt that something?
You all try your best to find someone who didnt,
who then died “without getting to” and you try to commend their behavior
her is what jesus still says
Mr 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
here is what we are trying to get you all to see
Lu 7:29 And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.
30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.
you reject the counsel of God when you refuse to be baptized and if you die having done this all your days
then dont expect mercy as “rejecter”
I do say this with malice.
but it is the truth
katherine,
dont fret,i once thought they hurt the cause of jesus
but any more all i see is a desperation in their tone.
why else would they spend as much time checking this site. if they were as successful as they tout, there would be no time to worry about us.
they have said it as plainly as you need to hear,they are not your brothers. please tell me that you dont feel related to them spiritually, i certainly am not. if god saves them ,great but if not it wont be because of a lack of knowledge.
jesus christ is lord to the glory of god and no amount of superfluity of naughtiness on their part will change that.amen?
lee
Chris
you may won’t to go back and reread your comments
it was much stronger than this
and when I show it on TV it will be in quotes
“I do say this with malice.”
Can I quote this, Johnny? You said it, right? What if I just took this comment and told everyone this is all you said?
You are the doing the same thing.
For the record, no-I would not do that because it is wrong-but it is exactly what you are doing.
OK , Chris should we make our answers to you just straight? Seems like you’re hiding . I would be ashamed to if I were you
Chris worships the internet
chris said
I’m fairly certain that given her condition, that Dianne was never baptized. There’s no way it could have been done without killing her, most likely.
“At least she was never baptized by immersion, which is what you guys claim all the time is an absolute obligation in order to have salvation. ”
chris said
Johnny, James, and Norm: Are you really prepared to go on live television and say that it is with 100% conviction that you believe that God did not allow Dianne Odell into His kingdom yesterday morning, all because it was impossible for her to be water baptized? Or might you possibly even argue, per your logic, that Dianne Odell should have left her iron lung and risked water baptism if she wanted salvation? Because that is what you are claiming, whether you want to admit it or not.
I’m planning on calling some or all of you live on the air to ask you that, if you aren’t willing to provide an answer in any other way. If you won’t take my phone call, then maybe Charles Roark will let us debate the matter live on WGSR. Is that an open challenge? You bet it is.
so what are you going to do Chris?
“chris are you still calling in and debating on Sunday nite?”
No, I’m not going to call in and “debate” with you on Sunday night, Johnny.
Because I have better things to do than get involved with what amounts to a spiritual “pissing match” with someone who would only gobble up the attention, then regurgitate it and beg for more.
And also, because you and I and everyone reading this knows fully well what a “debate” means to you and your cohorts.
You do not want, and indeed are *horrified* of, sincere debate, on neutral ground that you cannot control and exploit. If I were to call in to your show, your finger would be hovering over the mute button the entire time (just as you do with practically everyone who calls into your shows) waiting to cut me off and take words out of context and even blatantly put words into the mouth of whoever disagrees with you.
“Debate” with you, Johnny? Everyone in this region knows what kind of a joke your brand of “debating” is.
Besides, what is there really to debate? You are a Pharisee who would hold people in terrified sway to legalism and doctrine. You yourself have an hour of time every week to pounce and expound and otherwise extrapolate.
While the only thing I could possibly bring to the discussion is the mercy and grace and love of Jesus Christ.
Legalism versus grace, Johnny. You see a “debate”. But it shouldn’t even be the desire of a heart consumed by grace to want “debate” for debate’s sake.
So I suppose that you “win”, if you wanted me to call in so that you could “debate”. I am more than open for a debate for the right reason and in a serious format. But you can not consent to either.
to katherine
do what ever. I have already told you all that we can defend anything we do even if it is demonstrate that a mistake was made in typing a message.
That really isn’t the same as trying to get out of something like Chris did.
Is no one going to be critical of Chris for using a situation where the parents of the departed will be made to feel greater hurt by him (Chris) throwing her into the debate?
You all gave me a good going over for the Henry Co. youth that died in alcohol related wreck.
No fairness here?
Come Nathan Randy ,….Anybody out here
Matt 11:16
children
here you go catch this malice oops
lifesaver.
lee
Chris said;
No, I’m not going to call in and “debate” with you on Sunday night, Johnny.
Because I have better things to do than get involved with what amounts to a spiritual “pissing match” with someone who would only gobble up the attention, then regurgitate it and beg for more.
Oh what has changed?
You don’t have a an emotional story to try and use to subvert people into taking your position?
Ok I am moving on. There is no truth here today.
Nice try Chris
I am still posting you tomorrow night. Your comments are good to show how desperate folks are to defeat us.
Are you here lee
I may use you too
tune in
Johnny Robertson spent an hour and a half visiting my blog. That’s in *addition* to the hour he already spent on it earlier this morning.
I’ve got the logs recorded of his visits to prove it, too.
I hope you aren’t worshiping *me*, Johnny (chuckling…)
But anyhoo…
Hey Johnny, if you want to point people to my blog, please do! I love visitors! Get paid for them, even. Puts more money in my pocket. Plus, it’s an opportunity for people to see everything that I’ve got on my blog: like the movies that I’ve made, recipes, funny images that I’ve done in Photoshop, along with serious commentary and Christian discussion.
I work HARD to make my blog something that offers a bit of everything! I’d be CRAZY to turn down your offer to share it with even more people!! 😛
Lee
I would rather use your preacher if he had nerve to defend openly what you defend openly.
Dont say it is wrong to defend debate because you all are whooooping it up out here in cyber (little children land space)
“I am still posting you tomorrow night.”
Yay!!!!
“Your comments are good to show how desperate folks are to defeat us.”
Hmmmm-mmmmm…
Chris
not so fast New Yorker (Chris),
I m not going to publish your blog boyee
just your latest blunder
bye now
promise?
how about using this post.
whats wrong john dont you love me?
i sure hope its not like brian edwards
……….did i say that out loud?
we both know how you love him huh?
do your best.
lee
Y’know Johnny, if you keep this up, people will be BEGGING for you and me to make an appearance on live television, and have a serious debate. One that neither one of us can control.
You wanna go there, dude?
“just your latest blunder”
Can ANYONE imagine the apostle Paul, or Peter, or James, or Polycarp, or any of the early church figures, telling someone else “Just your latest blunder”?
I can’t either…
No fairness here?
Come Nathan Randy ,….Anybody out here
Johnny, I havent logged on since yesterday morning, so I dont know what youre referring to.
I will go back and read the comments
Well , Chris said he would and then said he won’t . I wonder if the group will call him a liar. Before Katie said she was leaving and then didn’t . I didn’t see her called a liar. It seems there is a double standard here. More inconsistancy from the lost folks here.
listen guys, this isnt about Johnny. I dont understand why or the need that we make this a “Johnny issue”. The btm line in that baptism is connected to remission of sins and that is what you must prove wrong – who cares what Johnny says or anyone for that matter. Johnny has given scriptures as did Corey and others, and they yet have been refuted. Why the fuss about something Christ stated ( Mark 16:16 ) Why the fuss about something Peter stated ( Acts 2:38 ) Why the fuss about something Paul stated ( Gal 3:27 ) Johnny, Corey, myslef, and others are not negating the blood of Christ…just stating what is stated.
I understand the madness, but all you need to do is ignore the “gun fight” and just stick to the bible. I am guilty of this too, but will try better to not allow Johnny to pull me into a gun fight…let’s not fall prey to this any longer- it just makes great air-time for Johnny and doesnt do anything but make us look like him – just arguring and fighting instead of civil discussion.
lets say for the sake of argument that your right
and that it is connected. they will not accept a man who is baptised if not with some exact understanding.
matt 23:13
they arent going in themselves neither will they suffer those who are going in.
hypocrites and blind guides.
no………….. im not following them.
lee
I said that I would call in if Johnny or someone else from his group provided an answer “in any other way”.
Lo and behold, he did. I’m satisfied.
Doesn’t mean that I *agree* with him, but I am satisfied that he responded.
It doesn’t have to be a televised reply. I wasn’t particularly interested one way or the other how they would choose to respond. But they did and I’m surprised that they DID do that much.
So it’s no skin off my nose, or honor lost, if Johnny tries to make hay out of “debating”. He replied back. And apparently he DOES believe that without baptism, a person is lost.
Of course he’s free to believe whatever he wants to. That’s not my problem. It’s when he uses that to HURT others in the name of Christ though… well, then someone has to call him out on it.
In any case, I have to wonder HOW in the world is he going to make hay out of this for a solid HOUR tomorrow night…
And Johnny, if you read this:
Do you think that I am, in any way, in *fear* of you?
The Lord has brought me through plenty enough already. Through things that you can not begin to imagine.
Things much worse than anything that a “minister” could dredge up against me on live television.
This, is nothing. You, are nothing.
In the end, the will of God shall be served. Of that, I have faith. Regardless of what you try to do to me or anyone else.
His will prevails. His grace prevails. His mercy prevails. His love prevails.
And that is enough to be content with.
“The btm line in that baptism is connected to remission of sins and that is what you must prove wrong – who cares what Johnny says or anyone for that matter. Johnny has given scriptures as did Corey and others, and they yet have been refuted.”
*clears throat*
Romans 3:22-28
“This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
“Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.“
Pretty clear, no? We are saved by faith. We are saved by grace. There is no other work by which we are saved, that any might boast of.
It is stated unequivocally here that we are saved by faith apart from the law.
No baptism required. No baptism even mentioned at all.
Yes, Johnny-you have shown me (and all of us) that you will justify whatever you do-even when it is NOTHING like Christ. You have also not allowed room for any mistakes or room for grace for anyone else-because you simply do not understand it and choose not to embrace it, yet we have extended it to you.
What’s the deal with that?
left you a note katherine.
lee
From Chris:
Romans 3:22-28
“This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
“Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.“
Chris, I agree with these verses, but are there anymore verses in the bible that speak on forgiveness? Should we kick aside the verses that speak of baptism? We are justified by faith apart from observing the law. Was Peter mixing law and grace in Acts 2:38? Do you think Peter was confused not knowing baptism was somehow of merit – come on now, we know better. Likewise, Jesus himself must have been confused when he stated one must believe and be baptized to be saved. And Paul on many accounts must have been confused too, seeing he made the same connection between baptism and remission of sins. We, in no way are hinting, even suggesting that baptism is a work of the flesh “that merits forgiveness”.
I know Johnny can push the right buttons and often set outs to turn the tables, making us look like the ones attacking him, so it is a must that we not fall prey to this – let’s keep to the bible, without attacking him and if we disagree, so be it, we disagree…after all, who of us can claim perfect understanding??
randy i wrote a note to churchesofchrist.
is that you? if so how bout a reply
lee
ok, Lee, I will.
Chris:
Submerging beneath the surface of water and getting wet is not a “work”. The “work” that is done in baptism is done by God, not by man. The “work” that is done in baptism is the transference of a sinner from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light. The “work” that is done in baptism is God taking a dead man and making him alive! The “work” that is done in baptism is God taking the unrighteous and declaring them righteous. The “work” that is done in baptism is God clothing the sinner with the righteousness of Jesus. The “work” that is done in baptism is God uniting together man’s spirit with Christ’s. And this could NEVER, EVER be accomplished by man! The miracle that happens in baptism is not anything man does. It is something God Himself does through His Son, Jesus Christ.
It must be remembered that although baptism is something we must do (like believing and repenting), baptism is an act of faith, not a “work.” It must also be noted that the one at “work” when we are baptized is God, not us. See Colossians 2:12. Just as we must report to the hospital before a surgeon can operate on us, so too, we must “report to God’ in the waters of baptism, submitting to God and claiming His promise so that our sins will be forgiven. Just as it is the surgeon who is the one who is at work when we are operated on, so too, it is God who is the one who is at work when we undergo baptism.
Again, baptism is not our work, it is His!
Lee, if you left an email at churchesofChrist, it may have went to Matt or Mikey – they have access to my blog and their email may be attached. I didnt see any comments there from you to approve
You can reach me at randycraiger@yahoo.com
no i meant at 4:31 here
Key Point To Remember:
The Epistles (letters) are written to Christians, i.e., people who have already been baptized into Christ (Romans 6:3-5, 1Cor 12:13).
The Epistles contain instructions to Christians and give instructions on how to remain in Christ and grow in Christ. The book of Acts gives examples of people who are not Christians becoming Christians. This is a great mistake many people make. They take instructions in the epistles on faith and apply them to conversion. But these verses do not relate to conversion, but to the converted. Once a person has been baptized into Christ, all the passages about faith and grace then apply.
In other words, once a person has been baptized into Christ, it can be said their faith is what continues to maintain their salvation.
I have found out baptism is NOT a work – by any definition.
Believing is!
John 6:28,29 KJV Then said they unto him, “What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?” Jesus answered and said unto them, “This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.”
When one lists the step one must take to follow the example of those in Acts, we see:
* Someone else must preach the Gospel in my presence – Romans 10:14,15
* I must hear the Gospel that is preached – same verses
* I must believe the Gospel – Romans 10:16,17; Hebrews 11:6
* I must repent -Acts 17:30; Acts 2:38; Luke 13:3,5
* I must confess Jesus of Nazareth, born of Mary to be the Son of God,
the Messiah – Romans 10:9
* Someone must baptize me – Acts 2:38; etc.
Note that the first and last “steps” require someone else “doing” something to me. I do not baptize myself. In fact, other than submitting to the act,
I do nothing. Absolutely nothing.
matt23:13 says it all.
WOE unto those who shut up the kingdom and wont go in themselves.and hinder those who ARE going in.
lee
The work is done by the baptizer not the baptizee. And to say that we are NOT saved by the works others do, would be to deny the work Our Lord did on the cross. Jesus said he had a baptism to undergo, he went to the cross, and was put there by others, we have a baptism to undergo, we go to the waters and are baptized by others. Jesus bleed at His baptism on the cross, we contact that blood at our baptism. Jesus became sin on the cross, paying our sin dept, we are made alive in Him when we are baptized…and just as Jesus was placed on the cross of others, we are to be baptized of others.
Lee said:
“Katherine,
dont fret,i once thought they hurt the cause of Jesus
but any more all i see is a desperation in their tone.
why else would they spend as much time checking this site. if they were as successful as they tout, there would be no time to worry about us.
they have said it as plainly as you need to hear,they are not your brothers. please tell me that you dont feel related to them spiritually, i certainly am not. if God saves them ,great but if not it wont be because of a lack of knowledge.
Jesus Christ is lord to the glory of God and no amount of superfluity of naughtiness on their part will change that.amen?
lee”
Yes, Lee-I agree. I hope for their sake that God is as full of grace and mercy as I believe He is, but I also know they will be held fully responsible for their vile actions. I do think much of it is about desperation and they do not have as much power as they would like to think they have. I just hate to think about those people who are under their power and hope that God is protecting them from being hurt.
Yes, God still reigns and glory will be His-even in the midst of this madness, I fully place my trust and hope in Him-knowing that He ultimately has the power and will take care of it all! 🙂
randy,
i am not trying to change what you believe.
hast thou faith? have it to thyself before god.
i am happy that im not condemned in the thing which i allow.
no……..i dont have a problem with the context.
lee
Lee, I am not addressing any problems with you, I know your heart is right…I was just making points about baptism that I believe – if you disagree, thats ok…Im not like Johnny and crew and never will act that way ever again.
Well, I am signing off for tonight.
take care
JR wrote:
“Chris
not so fast New Yorker (Chris),
I m not going to publish your blog boyee
just your latest blunder”
Interesting, the censorship that JR is undertaking. Let’s look at all the things he isn’t willing to discuss on his program:
1) The truth about what happened with Jason Hairston.
2) The URL of Chris Knight’s blog.
3) The URL of this blog, or Randy’s blog, or the ex-church of Christ’s blog, or any other site that is effective in demonstrating his error.
(and, by the way, I should point out that when the “Lion and Lamb” people put on their video exploring the doctrine of the church of Christ, Norm Fields gave out their information. Now that is integrity. Why can’t we get reasonable Norm to come here and comment instead of the clanging cymbal of JR?)
4) The fact that we’re praying for him, Norm and James today
5) That we publish his URL here, and that he doesn’t reciprocate.
And I’m sure the list could be added to. These are just the things that come to my mind after reading over the comments of the last few hours.
By the way, JR, why don’t you tell us what happened with Jason Hairston? I know that you’ve been trying to distract everyone away from that, but why don’t you enlighten us, since you aren’t afraid of the truth?
faithful wrote:
“Too cold in Alaska to be baptized? Who ever would claim such a thing would really be ignorant of the facts. … It seems as though common sense isn’t so common here.”
faithful, JR wrote “Did someone say “in Alaska it toooo cold” to be baptized”. Nobody said that, except him. He apparently was using that as another example so that he could boast about his Indiana Jones history, baptizing in “shark-infested waters”.
You need to read carefully before you post, friend.
Speaking of JR’s boasting (this time and any other – and there have been many times…), what does the NT say about boasting? Here are some good verses: Rom.3.27, Rom.4.2, 1Cor.1.31, 1Cor.5.6, and one of my favorites: 1 Cor.13.4, “Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant.”
Answering , you weren’t interested in Jason’s wellbeing before. Why the interest now?
Randy if you believe so much in the baptism , why haven’t you done it? Or have you since you stopped visiting with the church?
I’ve heard the Alaskan thing before. Harold gearheart came up with htat on his show
“Someone must baptize me – Acts 2:38; etc.”
And if someone in a far remote location comes to have faith in Christ in some fashion other than traditional means, but there is no one to baptize him, and no Christian ever does come to baptize him, and that person dies unbaptized, then that person is… spiritually SNAFU? All because that person MUST be baptized but there was no one to baptize him/her?
While we are on the subject:
WHO can baptize another person, exactly?
I would *really* like to see someone bring a response to that one. Who is it that can baptize?
faithful, faithful, faithful. Why don’t you take my advice and do some reading before you comment. Here – I’ll help you. Follow these little links:
Nov 13, 2007 – https://answeringchurchofchrist.wordpress.com/2007/11/13/norm-fields-broadcast-sunday-november-10-continued-iii/
Nov 30, 2007 –
Nov 30, 2007 –
Feb 22, 2007 –
Feb 25, 2007 –
As you can see, we’ve been discussing Jason on and off since he mysteriously vanished from the airwaves. I still wish he’d come here and comment himself, but he chooses not to. That’s his call. Meanwhile, since you seem to be in the know over there in CofC land, would you like to come out of the shadows and tell the community what happened?
Did I answer that question well enough for you?
First, Johnny wrote:
“Did someone say “in Alaska it toooo cold” to be baptized”
Then faithful responded:
“Too cold in Alaska to be baptized? Who ever would claim such a thing would really be ignorant of the facts. Do people live in Alaska? Indoors? Today the high was 49 f and the low 40f. That’s outside.Last time I checked water still didn’t freeze above 32f. I would think that common sense would tell us that folks that live there would live indoors with heating units for the structers. It seems as though common sense isn’t so common here. (emphasis mine)”
Then, when called on the fact that this whole Alaska thing is coming from his Beloved Leader, faithful quickly says:
“I’ve heard the Alaskan thing before. Harold gearheart came up with htat on his show”
Which brings me to ask this very, very important question:
SO WHAT’S YOUR POINT?!?
Your guy brought it up, and so you have basically just declared that what he is bringing up lacks common sense. Your words – not mine.
JR, you better rein in faithful before he really paints you into a corner. He’s trying just a little bit too hard, and he’s getting sloppy.
Well, guys, I hate to end this before Chris has had his question answered – and before faithful can attempt to back out from the things I’ve brought up, but I’m closing up the comments for the night. I’ll open it up tomorrow night after we’ve had our day of prayer.
Again, I will be taking comments, but just not approving them unless they are directly connected to praying for these men. So your comments will come out after the 1st of June if you want to go ahead and post them.
Everyone have a blessed day!
Nathan
Hey everyone-just wanted to say I will be joining you all in praying for these guys tomorrow, and will not be back on until after Wednesday because I am headed to Cancun with my family! 🙂
I pray that these men feel the prayers being lifted up for them, that the conversations here will be fruitful, and that we can all strive to shine the light of Christ into a world that needs the hope and love of Jesus.
On May 31, 2008 at 10:19 pm Chris Knight Said:
“Someone must baptize me – Acts 2:38; etc.”
Randy: per scripture that seems right on point.
Chris: And if someone in a far remote location comes to have faith in Christ in some fashion other than traditional means, but there is no one to baptize him, and no Christian ever does come to baptize him, and that person dies unbaptized, then that person is… spiritually SNAFU? All because that person MUST be baptized but there was no one to baptize him/her?
Randy: why the need to come up with cases that are out of the norm? Scripture still teaches this regardless of what we can come up with to water it down.
Chris: While we are on the subject:
WHO can baptize another person, exactly?
Randy: Anyone can.
Chris: I would *really* like to see someone bring a response to that one. Who is it that can baptize?
Randy: Anyone. I just dont see all the fuss about this, when its clear that it was taught by Jesus, Peter, and Paul…why fight something that is true? Nobody yet has refuted the scriptures that teach this – not one person yet. I know each argument you may have and in the end, they will just fall apart.
Nathan
we have answered Chris and we cant wait for his call.
the brethren that meet with me were greatly encouraged by his blunder.
They also agreed that you all should spank him soundly for bringing the grieving family of Ms Odell into his argument
the internet goes everywhere and you all claim that your site is being hit all over
Pr 26:7 The legs of the lame are not equal: so is a parable in the mouth of fools.
any one can see how lame Chris is (and you all if you dont rebuke him)
I am sure I will have wait till eternity for you to correct him
Sincere? People? on this site?
ask for the sunday lesson in which I used Chris mistake at 823 Starling 11AM
Nathan since you are there seeing this
Tonite I will get to demonstrate not 1 but 2 people who put up challenges and then took them back.
All from your little ole site
thank you nathan
you would think presbyterians would have learned from the young preacher who had only been with us two years and put to flight not 1 but 2 presbyterians twice his age with triple his experience.
Oh yes, his name was Jason
he is a thorn in your side isn’t he?
Randy says you are the man who debated him.
I dont care if you are or not.
Your kind couldn’t even answer one of young preachers huh?
Have you read the url of the Presbyterian history yet?
pg 215 History presbyterian Church in the State of kentucky Robert Davidson
have you heard of the “torrent” that swept through the presbee faith? in Kentucky ? 150,000 conversions before they could get themselves together and start trying to debate. they never recovered says Historian Davidson…a presbyterian
wow that is some powerful teaching
Last night I confronted Johnny Robertson outside the WGSR studio, with questions and a video camera.
My questions were..
1. How is what he is doing demonstrating devotion to Christ and His love to a lost world?
2. Where in scripture does it state that a person who is not baptized will go to Hell?
3. “I’m right here Johnny, now how about that live debate?” (paraphrase)
He didn’t answer the first, COULD NOT answer the second (later on he said that baptism is a commandment but he STILL can not point to anywhere in scripture that says the unbaptized believer will go to Hell), and he OUTRIGHT REFUSES for various reason to debate me: because I’m not credentialed enough apparently, because I’m not Baptist or Presbyterian, and because I would be “boring” (his word).
I presented the opportunity to Johnny Robertson to have a live on-air debate. He refuses and I cannot help but think it is because he is afraid. He kept calling me a “renegade” and even on his live show, told everyone that he didn’t “know about Chris Knight”.
The better angels of my nature are holding me back from making a reference to barnyard fowl regarding Johnny’s hesitancy, parse that as you will…
And Johnny also told me that I wasn’t saved, apparently because my baptism was all wrong.
I will have the video up later in the morning. In the meantime, here is my cursory report: http://theknightshift.blogspot.com/2008/06/tonight-i-confronted-johnny-robertson.html
And he doesn’t believe in “turning the other cheek either” in regard to his television commercials (after I told him that they were silly and spiteful).
From Johnny: Randy says you are the man who debated him.
From Randy: Do what !!??
Johnny, maybe you should go back and read the emails again. I never said Nathan is Jeff Black. I said Nathan and Jason first talked when Jeff Black came on the scene. I have confessed more than once that I do not know who Nathan is and I dont. And honestly, it doesnt even matter…maybe me throwing this in your face made you think Nathan is Jeff Black, when I ask you to put the puzzle together, I surely didnt mean this…try again.
way to go Chris, you took him by suprise just like he does everyone else. He will now ask for a debate on his terms…watch and see
I think Chris definitely ruffled his feathers last night.
And Johnny Johnny Johnny… I was disappointed when you didn’t show up at my church yesterday evening prior to your show. I thought for sure you’d take me up on the invitation to attend. Looks like the only one that backs out of things is you.
Folks, really… it wasn’t hard at all to go down to the station and meet Johnny head on. It’s not hard at all to do ANYTHING without fear.
You wanna know why?
Go to my blog. You can just go to http://theknightshift.com if you like.
There’s a quote by C.S. Lewis on it. Right now it’s toward the top but that might change soon because I’m redesigning the blog.
There is a reason why it’s displayed so prominently.
It sums up the life we have in Christ more succinctly, and better than any other writer I’ve found outside scripture itself.
Die a little to yourself each day, so that you might know the full and abundant and joyful *life* that can only come from faith in Jesus Christ.
If you want a life without bitterness, and regret, and with the freedom to be the person that God made you to be… there it is.
That is why I am not afraid of Johnny Robertson or anyone else.
You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.
— 1st John 4:4
Katie:
Where do you worship,and what are the times?