I’ve been feeling convicted recently about this blog, and what it could become. And what I don’t want it to become.
When the subjects of the blog are people who seem to revel in stirring things up and getting people riled up (regardless of what is motivating them to do this), then it is easy to find ourselves getting comfortably in a permanent defensive posture. Johnny Robertson’s visit this week just underlines how easily that can happen.
I don’t want this blog to be a place that Johnny, Norm and/or James can give to their supporters and say, “Look at how I am being treated! I must be doing something right if they are so upset at me!” Rather, I want it to be a place where the three men would see the love of Christ exhibited.
I would ask my regular commenters to consider the following Scripture passages:
A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another (John 13:34).
But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you (Luke 6:27-28).
Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse (Romans 12:14).
We work hard with our own hands. When we are cursed, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure it (1 Corinthians 4:12).
Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord. On the contrary: “If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good (Romans 12:17-21).
Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing (1 Peter 3:9).
Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness. Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble (1 John 2:9-10).
Now, I am not saying that any of the people who have been posting here about the three TV hosts have been acting improperly. However, I want this to be a place where Jesus’ name is honored, and I think one important way we honor Him is when we act like Him.
So, I invite you all to join me on Sunday, June 1 as I pray for Johnny Robertson, Norm Fields and James Oldfield. Some suggested things we can pray for them:
1. For the well-being of their families
2. For their health
3. For Godly wisdom as they attempt to lead the churches where they teach and preach
4. That Christ would dwell in their (and our) hearts through faith. And that they (and we), “being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge–that [they] may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.” Ephesians 3:17-19
Won’t you join me in praying for these men this Sunday?
Thanks,
Nathan
Answering the Church of Christ 
“I don’t want this blog to be a place that Johnny, Norm and/or James can give to their supporters and say, “Look at how I am being treated! I must be doing something right if they are so upset at me!” Rather, I want it to be a place where the three men would see the love of Christ exhibited”
-You hit the nail on the head, because that is exactly where it was headed. He jumped in and created a fuss just to try to make him appear to be the being attacked, when its so obvious to see that it was his doing. He trying to hit each person a certain way, so that they would come back with a certain response. I guess this makes a good show for him to air – seems like Jesus said go into the world and preach the gospel ( good news ), I guess Johnny rather not do that….
I agree Nathan and I will join you in prayer on Sunday for these three men as well as the hearts of our community and that above all debates and discussions that Christ’ love would reign surpeme.
Got prayer coming from this direction too.
Ps 34:15 The eyes of the LORD are upon the righteous, and his ears are open unto their cry.
16 The face of the LORD is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth.
Pr 15:29 ¶ The LORD is far from the wicked: but he heareth the prayer of the righteous.
Pr 28:9 ¶ He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.
1Pe 3:12 For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.
Eph 1:3 ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Unitl you get INTO Christ don’t waiste your time
Faithful, you should join us in prayer
God does not honor the prayers os alien sinniers who have not obeyed the gospel
Katie , you should obey the gospel and join me IN Christ
I appreciate your concern faithful
but I am IN Christ and will pray for you regardless of whether you believe that or not, I wish you would do the same
Sorry, faithful, you can’t stop us from praying for you!
Faithful, are you God and Judge? You act as if you are sitting on the right hand of God. Please step back and look at what you’re doing.
Nathan said “Sorry, faithful, you can’t stop us from praying for you!”
My thoughts exactly 🙂
Faithful, after hearing the gospel ( good news ) that Christ died for our sins and rose from the dead, so that we are saved by His life – we believed ( faith ) – we turned to Him, from ourselves ( repentance ) – we confessed Christ as Lord of our life ( confession ) – we were baptized in water ( placed in Christ by God 2:11-12 ) = forgiven, set free from sin via the blood of Christ ! Each person you are condemning has done this !
Thank you Randy and everything you just posted is just what I have done and I am as assured of my salvation as I am sure that I am sitting here.
Thank God for His saving grace!
Matthew 5:43.”You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’
44.But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
45.that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
46.If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that?
47.And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?
My prayers are uplifted.
Faithful, no man belongs to Jesus because he is a Baptist, a Methodist, a Presbyterian, a Conservative, a Liberal or a Protestant. Disciples of Jesus may create parties, but no party can create disciples of Jesus. If men will be disciples of Jesus it will be in spite of their parties and not because of them.
All parties have a combination of truth and error ( even yours ). Of course this is also my condition, but as a Christian only I am free to adopt new truth at once when I apprehend it. I am also free to immediately reject error when I am made aware of it. Pay attention to what I am about to say Faithful – This is not true of a partisan. You must subscribe to the error as well as the truth in the party creed, whether written or unwritten else you will be ejected from the party.
This does not free me from a relationship to others. It enlarges it. There is no place for a lone wolf among God’s sheep. A single member does not constitute a body and a head requires a body! Just as Jesus belongs to all of his disciples and all of his disciples belong to Jesus, I also belong to every person on this whole wide earth who belongs to Jesus. “We being many, are one!”
Let me say once more Faithful that I am a Christian only, not because I desire to be narrow and exclusive, but rather because I want to be expansive and inclusive. No sect ( not even yours ) on earth is broad enough or comprehensive enough to provide all of the love or truth which I crave.
I had a theology professor in college years ago who noted that some people don’t seem to be happy in life, unless they are convinced beyond all doubt that when they get to Heaven that there will be one person who’s inferior to themselves who is roasting in Hell forever.
Parse that as you will…
Faithful, I have a task for you – find one sincere person in the New Testament seeking after Christ that was rejected and/or treated as you are treating the sincere people here – find one.
Btw, please keep the context in mind when you pull up your verses and know that I once used them verses too, so note, that I will come back with the context if you ignore it.
Faithful, everyone on here wants to be your friend and you seem to just want to push us away. Well, guess what, you can’t push us away and we will always welcome you as a friend.
Randy you hate me showing those verses don’t you?
“Faithful, no man belongs to Jesus because he is a Baptist, a Methodist, a Presbyterian, a Conservative, a Liberal or a Protestant.”
That should read no belongs to Jesus that is a baptist , methodist…..etc
I want you to obey the true gospel not a man made one
I don’t mean for this to sound unkind but the Bible speaks of the danger of wolves in sheep’s clothing. We also see where the early church was cautious in their reception of the converted Saul until they discerned that he no longer wish to harm them. Be careful in your attempts to befriend those who considere you to be a heretic.
Faithful said “I want you to obey the true gospel not a man made one”
good thing that we are there pal
It’s amazing to me that no matter how often we tell you what we have done to be saved that for you in particular faithful… it comes down to this, we don’t claim to be a part of your particular sect, the particular congregation that you attend. Which means to me that for you, salvation must mean that you attend the Martinsville Church of Christ. Because nothing else would make sense, when Randy has just outlined for you the exact plan of salvation and yet according to you we have not “obeyed”. So tell me who is following the man made gospel here? Not me.
I wouldn’t say we could be friends but I will pray for you. period.
faithful,
I know that you probably hope that you are pleasing JR and the other men by attempting to dishearten us in our attempt and desire to pray for you guys, but it’s not going to work.
Folks other than faithful,
Let’s not let these men divert our attention away from our hope in Christ – and let’s not allow them to sully our desire to please God through prayer by pushing us into arguments over who is saved and who is not.
We each know our position before the Lord, and faithful (as much as he thinks he does) does not. So, just let his comments that are attempting to inflame go right on past.
Our desire to pray is not to please these men, but to please God.
Katie when did the baptist church start?
who cares
not to be trite
but really… seriously… who cares
and besides I know you guys already know the whole history so you don’t need me to answer that question
🙂
gotta go, I’ll be gone for the weekend
but I’ll join you all in prayer on Sunday
Blessings.
Run Run run . ….I wouldn’t want to answer that question either if I were defending the baptist church
Bon weekend, Katie!
faithful,
What church do you attend? I know you’ll probably not answer it, so I’ll tell you why I ask. If you attend the Martinsville church of Christ, can you tell me where you get the authority to call yourself “church of Christ” when the words “church of Christ” don’t exist in the New Testament?
Commence hermeneutical tapdance…. NOW!
Thanks Nathan, you as well
have a big youth even this weekend, will get little sleep but tis the life in youth ministry! 🙂
youth *event
I do atend in Martinsville. Why would I not say? I ‘m not ashamed like the denominational people here. Romans 16: 16 . you know that . So let me go ahead and ask you can you have a plural of something with out having a singular?
I thought you had to go Katie why don’t you go ahead and tell us what year the baptist church started and who founded it
On May 30, 2008 at 8:21 am faithful Said:
I do atend in Martinsville. Why would I not say? I ‘m not ashamed like the denominational people here. Romans 16: 16 . you know that .
then where faithful, and whats your real name ? Are you ashamed
btw, still waiting on the verses
On May 30, 2008 at 7:49 am Randy Said:
Faithful, I have a task for you – find one sincere person in the New Testament seeking after Christ that was rejected and/or treated as you are treating the sincere people here – find one.
Btw, please keep the context in mind when you pull up your verses and know that I once used them verses too, so note, that I will come back with the context if you ignore it.
Oh, I know Romans 16:16. It starts out like this… “Greet one another with a Holy Kiss…” That’s one of the things that has been very interesting to me about Martinsville church of Christ (as well as many others), that they say “speak where the Bible speaks, be silent where the Bible is silent”, but they completely gloss over this command which is found four other times in the New Testament. Sounds like selective interpretation to me.
But, I digress. As to your question about pluralities… certainly you aren’t suggesting that “Martinsville church of Christ” is one of the churches about which Paul was referring in Romans 16:16?
Thanks Nathan for getting us back on track. I too will join in the June 1st prayer. This is saying a lot coming from me you guys!! Interesting that our sunday school class is discussing prayer and I now have a much fuller view of prayer. After I left the c of c, I stopped praying. I am learning a new about prayer.
I’ll have to pick this conversation up in a while. I’m stepping away from my computer. No, faithful, not “running” (yes, people like Katie and I actually do have lives away from our computers), but actually going out into real life.
If someone else would like to pick up where I left off, go for it. Otherwise, I’ll be back later to resume.
I am out too – getting tags for the van – I hate the DMV 😦
TTYL
I had another thought. We are talking here a lot about the gospel, obeying the gospel etc. We always talked a lot in the c of c about getting down to the basics, and I have no problem with that philosphy. It is my understanding that the Greek (or maybe it was Hebrew) word for gospel is “the good news”. Have you all learned the same thing? If this is true than the term “spreading the gospel” essentially means “spreading the good news” It seems that is what everyone here is going, that is spreading the good news about Jesus.
Randy I will if you can show me someone who followed the baptist plan. I can’t read about a sinners prayer. I noticed the other day you said you were heading over to another coC in VA. HAve you obeyed over there? If not are you atending with the hopes of debunking them?
Well answering , or should I call you questioning, Martinsville is the same church but different location
Faithful wrote “Katie when did the Baptist Church start?”
When was the American Restoration Movement faithful?
Maybe you could point out some “sound” congregations in Europe and Asia that pre-date this movement?
Faithful wrote: “God does not honor the prayers of alien sinniers who have not obeyed the gospel”
What he really said: “God only honors the prayers of people who adhere to the exact religious beliefs of me and my sect.” (I suppose this does not include “liberal” Church of Christ members who disagree with him on even the slightest points)
DHM , To restore something does it not already have to exist?
People that have obeyed the gospel can ask for forgiveness.
“People that have obeyed the gospel can ask for forgiveness.”
At what point have they obeyed the gospel enough that they can ask for forgiveness?
What happens if they disobey the gospel even once after they have forgiveness? Must they work to obey the gospel just as much, all over again?
Or is there grace from God only after obeying the gospel sufficiently? In which case, does His grace extend to us regardless of what we do after we have obeyed him enough for forgiveness, or does He withdraw that grace from us upon our disobedience and we must work to gain His forgiveness once more?
What do you mean obeyed enough. Ether it’s obeyed or it isn’t . After a person has obeyed they can ask fo forgiveness. I think that’s pretty simple to understand
“DHM , To restore something does it not already have to exist?”
When did it fade away?
I assume you believe some point in the late 1st century/early 2nd century?
So for 1800 years the church was in total apostasy until it was restored in the Southern United States?
Why do Orthodox Churches in the Middle East and Eastern Europe have entirely different views on their Christian practices than your church? Does your particular movement have a better grasp of their language and culture than they do?
“So for 1800 years the church was in total apostasy until it was restored in the Southern United States?
Wrong.
“Wrong.”
So tell me the right way.
“After a person has obeyed they can ask fo forgiveness. I think that’s pretty simple to understand”
No it’s not, because you haven’t explained how much a person must obey in order to ask for forgiveness.
Does a person need only obey once and then they can ask for forgiveness? And if so, which commandment can obey just that one time in order to petition God for forgiveness?
If they disobey once, do they have to obey all over again in just as great a measure?
DMH wrote:
Maybe you could point out some “sound” congregations in Europe and Asia that pre-date this movement?
I know this wasn’t directed at me, but here is an answer for you:
http://churches-of-christ.ws/indextr.htm
http://www.padfield.com/1996/campbell.html
All of that pre-dates the American Restoration Movement. Some by hundreds of years before Campbell was even born.
DMH wrote:
Why do Orthodox Churches in the Middle East and Eastern Europe have entirely different views on their Christian practices than your church?
I know at least one of those Eastern Orthodox churches believes in the Bible and the first 1000 years of their own man-made traditions. Because they accept their own traditions as having equal weight as God’s word it is pretty easy to see why they would have different practices.
Since you don’t know how to obey I’ll tell you.
What a person must do to be saved
1. Hear the gospel of Jesus Christ preached. ( Romans 10:17 )
2. Believe . (John 8:24 )
3. Confess Jesus Christ is the Son of God ( Romans 10:9-10 )
4. Repent of your sins . ( Luke 13:3 )
5. Be baptized for the remission of sins. ( Acts 2:38 )
then….
6 Remain faithfull ( Rev 2:10)
Is that clear enough?
A person must obey the things Jesus left us to do prior to obtaining the salvation He offers:
*Hear the word
*Believe it
*Repent of sins
*Confess Christ as Lord
*Be immersed for the remission of sins
When we are obedient and do those things we are in Christ. Those are the things we must obey before we can simply go to God in prayer for forgiveness. From there, I’ll let John explain it:
1 John 1:7, “but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.”
What if a person is deaf, and cannot hear?
You are arguing that the Bible says that a person must “hear” in order to believe.
So what about those who have never heard a single sound in their entire life?
Per this kind of hyper-literalistic interpretation of scripture, how can deaf people NOT be damned to Hell, if they have not heard?
Mind you, it doesn’t say “READ the Word and understand it” anywhere in the Bible. Only that “faith comes by HEARING…” So how about it: what about those who cannot hear?
Why do Orthodox Churches in the Middle East and Eastern Europe have entirely different views on their Christian practices than your church? Does your particular movement have a better grasp of their language and culture than they do?
Are they all dishonest? Do they misunderstand the original Greek and Aramaic scriptures?
Could you point out some “sound” congregations that predate the American Restoration Movement?
For that matter, are there any congregations in the Bible we should model our churches around?
Faithful, please address these issues.
Interestingly, I think the churches you mention, DMH, may have a better grasp, and actually do what western CofC hyperconservatives claim to do but do not.
For example, it is common in the Orthodox churches to actually obey the five scriptural commands to greet one another with a holy kiss.
On May 30, 2008 at 9:56 am DMH Said:
Why do Orthodox Churches in the Middle East and Eastern Europe have entirely different views on their Christian practices than your church? Does your particular movement have a better grasp of their language and culture than they do?
Are they all dishonest? Do they misunderstand the original Greek and Aramaic scriptures?
Could you point out some “sound” congregations that predate the American Restoration Movement?
For that matter, are there any congregations in the Bible we should model our churches around?
– very good points !
Corey,
Thanks for the reply. It was actually addressed to faithful, but I appreciate it anyway.
I have seen these websites posted before. Here is just a small sampling of the types of problems they contain:
Here is what the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography says about Henry Denne.
“Denne, Henry (1605/6?–1666), General Baptist minister and religious controversialist”
The guy that put together the Traces of the Kingdom website equates him to the Church of Christ due to the baptism methods, and that is about it as far as I can tell.
I would love to see some credible, primary historical sources on this issue if anyone can provide them.
Well Chris the bible does speak of those out of the way. Let me ask you , are you deaf? If not what is your excuse for not obeying?
“Could you point out some “sound” congregations that predate the American Restoration Movement?
Have you read Semple’s book on history?
faithful,
The only rationale you can offer up for why I have not “obeyed”, apparently, is that I’m not a member of your type of “Church of Christ”.
Has it entered into your mind, at all, that this is not a sign of belonging to God, but is instead a sign that one belongs to a cult of men?
Can a prson not hear of something through a written word?
I’m noticing that my questions are not being answered. I thought this was the answering the church website. You seem to think it’s the questioning the church site. Are my questions not valid questions
faithful,
Didn’t Jesus himself often answer questions by giving questions? Why does that make you uncomfortable?
Meanwhile, you say that the Martinsville church of Christ is the same church/different location. Then why do you not practice like that same church?
“Can a prson not hear of something through a written word?”
That would be “reading”, not “hearing”. And the letter of the law states that a person must HEAR in order to believe.
“Church of Christ”‘s rules, not mine.
“Have you read Semple’s book on history?”
Who is Semple and what book?
Feel free to share more info about it.
Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
So, where is the word of God? In the Bible. We read the Bible to know what to teach so that others might hear. Paul didn’t tell those he wrote to that they would audibly hear the word from God, but that they should recognize that what they read from him was the commandments of God.
1Sa 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
DMH wrote:
The guy that put together the Traces of the Kingdom website equates him to the Church of Christ due to the baptism methods, and that is about it as far as I can tell.
The point is that there were people teaching many, if not most/all, Biblical truths even then. It is also important to note that those who taught that the scriptures were to be our only guide were persecuted and sometimes killed by the Catholic church.
Not good enough, Corey. It says that “by hearing”. NOT “by reading”. Scripture could have said “by understanding” but it did not do that, so it must be taken to mean literally hearing with one’s ears.
Ready to admit that there’s a need for grace now, and that adherence to legalism cannot possibly justify us?
“The point is that there were people teaching many, if not most/all, Biblical truths even then. It is also important to note that those who taught that the scriptures were to be our only guide were persecuted and sometimes killed by the Catholic church.”
In fairness to Catholics, they would contend that they suffered persecution and execution for championing the truth as well, and have been doing so since the first and second centuries.
Don’t you contend that denominations that have some form of the truth today are not actually saved? Why would evidence of some truths being taught hundreds of years ago carry any weight then? Would they not be apostate as well? It is just a little confusing.
The literal translation reads:
so then the faith [is] by a report, and the report through a saying of God,
DMH wrote:
Why would evidence of some truths being taught hundreds of years ago carry any weight then? Would they not be apostate as well? It is just a little confusing.
It is important because the truth didn’t go away. People may have perverted and tried to change that truth, but there have been some who tried to stay with it. I would also point to 2 Thessalonians in which Paul states that there would be a time of apostasy, so to believe that that time has come and gone would make sense.
So then, change your doctrine so that it says “Hear the report.” Simple, no?
You’re still trying to stick with a literal “hearing” of the word. Meaning an audible hearing of the word. If faith comes by a report, and a report by the saying of God, then the report could be spoken or read.
I will definitely be joining with you all for praying for these guys. I have already been praying for them, but will make a special concerted effort to do that on June 1st. Thanks for reminding us what is important 🙂
…and faithful, that includes you, too 🙂
“faithful” said:
Since you don’t know how to obey I’ll tell you.
What a person must do to be saved
1. Hear the gospel of Jesus Christ preached. (Romans 10:17)
2. Believe. (John 8:24)
3. Confess Jesus Christ is the Son of God (Romans 10:9-10)
4. Repent of your sins. (Luke 13:3)
5. Be baptized for the remission of sins. (Acts 2:38)
then….
6 Remain faithful (Rev 2:10)
Is that clear enough?
Hmmm…I have done ALL of those things!! Praise God for His faithfulness!! 🙂
Actually, Corey, here is the scoop on Romans 10:17.
The word translated as “hearing” is the Greek word “akoe”. Here is the definition of that Greek word, with the reference at the end. The definition with the (*) is the one used for Romans 10:17.
1) the sense of hearing
2) the organ of hearing, the ear
3) the thing heard
a) instruction, namely oral
*1) of preaching the gospel
b) hearsay, report or rumour
It certainly sounds as if Chris’s interpretation is accurate – that this verse is literally talking about hearing. Interesting point he makes.
Oops – forgot the reference:
http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G189&t=kjv
Answering : Have you ever vivsited in Martinsville. Did Jesus ignore questions?
Isn’t that “Hear, Believe, Confess, Repent, Be Baptized” a plan of salvation? Doesn’t Robertson and his bunch preach against that sort of thing?
What’s different between the “Church of Christ”‘s plan of salvation and the plan of salvation of most Baptist churches?
(I don’t consider myself a Baptist, but I have to ask…)
Katherine you may want to look at number 6 on the list
So you can’t hear about something from something writen?
Nathan,
Based upon these two passages:
Ephesians 3:4
By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,
1 Corinthians 14:37
If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord’s commandment.
we see that the report that we “hear” can come from reading as well as audibly hearing. Notice that it is instruction “namely oral”. To harmonize Romans 10:17 and the passages I just posted we have to acknowledge that the “report” can be heard with the ear or heard through reading.
Chris wrote:
What’s different between the “Church of Christ”’s plan of salvation and the plan of salvation of most Baptist churches?
Namely that baptism comes after salvation (not found in scriptures) rather than prior to salvation (found in scriptures).
faithful:
First question – nope. I’m just a TV/youtube fan. I’ve driven by the building several times. Which reminds me – do you folks own that building?
Second question – how many times did Jesus answer a question with a question – which to the asker would feel like he was being ignored?
Ha, I KNEW you were going to say that “faithful”. Definitely predictable.
I AM faithful…to GOD, and that is all that matters 🙂
“For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ.” ~Galatians 1:10
“Namely that baptism comes after salvation (not found in scriptures) rather than prior to salvation (found in scriptures).”
Paul was converted, then baptized.
In fact, in recounting his conversion in Galatians 1, Paul does not mention baptism at all!
Only one time in that book does he mention baptism, in Chapter 3, Verse 26: “for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.”
Verse 27, by the way, reads: “There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” in reiteration of our earlier discussion. But I digress…
If baptism was essential to salvation, then why did Paul not emphasize it in his epistle to the church at Galatia? Why did he not stress that he was baptized following his own conversion?
By the way, the “baptism” that Paul speaks of, is not water baptism. It is a baptism of the spirit (NOT the sort that is often described as part of a pentecostal experience), the inward washing and sealing of us in Christ. Physical water has nothing to do with it.
A brief history: Origin of major denominations,Ref. Traditions of Men vs. Word of God
Adventism———–Mass. 1831———William Miller
American Baptist—-Pro. R.I. 1639—–Roger Williams
Assembly of God—–Hot Springs Ark. 1914–Group
Baptist church——London Eng. 1607—John Smyth
Brethren (Dunkards)-Germany 1708——Hochman & Mack
Catholic Apostolic church–Eng. 1830—Group
Christian church—Midway Ky.1859——Group
Christian Science—Boston Mass.1879—Mary Baker Eddy
Church of Eng.——Eng. 1534———-King Henry viii
Church of god——U.S. 1880———–D.S. Warner
Church of living god–Wrightsville Ark.1889-Wm.Christian
Congregational church–Mass. 1684——Group
Cumberland Presbyterian-Tenn. 1810—–Group
Evangelical church–Penn. 1803———Jacob Albright
Evangelical and Reformed- Ohio 1934—-Group
Foursquare gospel–L.A. Calif.1917—–Aimee S.McPherson
Freewill Baptist–New Durham N.C. 1780-Benjamin Randall
Greek Orthodox—-Greece 1053———-Group
Holiness church–Chicago Ill.1907——Howard Hoople
Jehovah’s witnesses—Penn.1874——–Charles T.Russell
Luthren church—-Aus.Germany 1530—–Martin Luther
Mennonite church–Switzerland 1525—–Group
Methodist church–London Eng. 1729—–John Wesley
Mormon church—Seneca N.Y. 1830——-Joseph Smith
Mormons(reorganized)–Wisconsin 1852—Joseph Smith II
Moravianchurch–Kunwald Bohemia 1457—Group
Nazerene church–L.A.Calif.1895——–P.F.Bresee
Pentecostal Holiness–Anderson S.C.1898-Group
Plymouth brethren–Dublin Ire.1829—Group
Presbyterian church–Switzerland 1535–John Calvin
Quakers———Eng.1650————-George Fox
Roman Catholic–Rome Italy 606—-Boniface III
Salvation army–London Eng. 1865—-William Booth
Seventh day adventism-Mass.1846—–Ellen G. White
Spiritualist church-U.S.1848——Andrew J. Davis
The unity school—-K.C. Mo.1889–Charles Fillmore
The united church of Canada- Canada 1925—Group
Unitarians—–Poland 16th C.—-Faustus Socinus
Universalist church—Greece 1053—Group
The Church of Christ–Jerusalem 33A.D.—–Jesus
Mt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Ac 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Ac 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
Chris wrote:
Paul was converted, then baptized.
If he was converted neither he nor the Lord knew it. Paul went and prayed for days without eating, waiting on Ananias who the Lord said He would send to him. What happened then?
Acts 9: 18And immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he regained his sight, and he got up and was baptized
Paul then recounts the same thing is Acts 22:16:
Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name
You say that Paul doesn’t mention baptism is Galatians 1. True. He also doesn’t mention Ananias or his experience on the road to Damascus. Did neither of those things matter because he didn’t re-tell them every time he wrote a letter?
You wrote:
If baptism was essential to salvation, then why did Paul not emphasize it in his epistle to the church at Galatia?
He certainly did emphasize it when he told them that it is what puts us into Christ (3:27). He certainly emphasized it with the Philipian jailer and with the Ephesians in Acts 19.
You wrote:
By the way, the “baptism” that Paul speaks of, is not water baptism. It is a baptism of the spirit (NOT the sort that is often described as part of a pentecostal experience), the inward washing and sealing of us in Christ. Physical water has nothing to do with it.
There is no evidence that Ananias told Paul to be baptized with the Holy Spirit. Only Jesus can baptize with the Spirit.
I hate to tell you T.D., but you left out the American Restoration Movement Church of Christ that you and I are members of. We have a history, it-s there. Denying it will never change the historical facts. I think that those who choose to deny it are only doing it to their own detriment. It is helpful for us to learn from our history-the good and the bad. The original idea was “Christians only, not the only Christians” and it was a clear plea for unity…but look where many have taken that-not even close.
I know that messes with many people’s agenda that they are the ONLY “right” church so they can fight all of the other denominations-and that is one of the main reasons why people choose not to accept the facts of history, but it will still not change anything.
The “Church of Christ”, the universal church, the body of Christ that you are referring to that was begun on 33 A.D. and is listed in those verses is real-it is His people, but cannot be found in one particular building, with one particular sign outside.
It is vitally important that we recognize the difference, and until we do-Jesus’ prayer for unity will only continue to be ignored.
T.D. you forgot one.
Church of Christ- Thomas and Alexander Campbell, Walter Scott, and Barton W. Stone.- officially recognized as a distinct movement in 1906.
– am just ribbing you guys, but honestly some of that list was pretty funny.
When you all get together for prayer on June 1, Whose Bible are you going to use? The one that says that “the women lead the prayer” or the one that says that “Baptism is an outward showing of an inward faith”
or the one that says that “sprinkling is the mode” or the one that says to call “the Pope Father” or the one that says that “your children are born sinners” or maybe you could use the one that says “God has already pre selected those that are going to be saved” in which
case your prayer would be in vain as it already is:
Mt 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
In all the cases that you mentioned, WATER baptism still did not precede salvation.
So Corey, please tell me: is WATER BAPTISM, somehow, special and powerful? I mean, do you believe that the water is imbued with spiritual essence that can literally wash away sin? What makes baptismal water any different from regular bathtub water, or jacuzzi water? Wouldn’t just about EVERYONE in the world have salvation, since most people at some time or another is fully immersed in water?
I was on the swim team for three years in high school, some years before I became a believer. Did all of that repeated exposure to water sanctify me before I came to Christ?
If I took a bath after I found Christ, does that count as salvation even though it wasn’t “water baptism” water?
At what point does regular water take on the quality of something that can effect spiritual change?
How is claiming that it does, any different from many Gnostic beliefs?
What if a man comes to have faith in Christ in the middle of the desert, with nary an oasis in sight, and he dies of thirst and starvation before being baptized? Is he going to Hell? Or what if he is found and is able to be given medical treatment: should baptism precede every other measure that would save his life?
What if a person can be baptized in the normal sense, but on her way to church to be baptized her car is struck by a drunk driver and she dies on the scene. Now, that person could have been baptized, but she wasn’t. She just did miss it. Is she going to Hell, also, just because she wasn’t put into contact with Magic Water Baptism Water(tm)?
So Corey… what makes water baptism water so unique and holy? It is “holy water” that you are suggesting it to be, yes?
T.D.,
I am going to use the Bible that says to love my God, my neighbor, (Luke 10:27) to love my enemies and pray for those who persecute us (Matthew 5:44), that tells me I am saved by grace through faith (Romans 5:2, Ephesians 2:8), that gives me hope in Jesus (1 Timothy 4:10), and assurance in His great faithfulness and salvation (Hebrews 10:21-21)…and encourages me to:
“Be joyful always; pray continually; give thanks in all circumstances, for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus”. 🙂
So Katherine
Who is going to be condemned to hell, Those that have unity with Christ or those that have unity with the world?
Mt 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Yes, water baptism is special. Not more special than faith, but it is special. Peter wrote:
1 Peter 3:21
Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you– not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience–through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
As stated countless times before, baptism puts us into Christ (Gal 3:27). There is noting magical about the water, as Peter clearly stated, but the fact that we contact the blood of Christ in baptism is incredible to say the least.
All of your scenarios are just like the one that began on your blog – extraordinary circumstances that only a minuscule amount will face. You’re just throwing them out as excuses for your disobedience and disregard for the commandments of God. You’re not stuck in a desert are you? Are you also in an iron lung? You’re looking for loopholes in God’s word, plain and simple.
And you are wrong about your first statement as well. There is not ONE SINGLE instance of someone waiting days, weeks, months or years after they were supposedly saved to be baptized. Every example in scriptures says that they were baptized “straight-away”, “immediately” or “that hour”. Just because you don’t like it doesn’t make it any less true.
On May 30, 2008 at 12:37 pm T.D. Said: Plymouth brethren–Dublin Ire.1829—Group
Presbyterian church–Switzerland 1535–John Calvin
Quakers———Eng.1650————-George Fox
Roman Catholic–Rome Italy 606—-Boniface III
Salvation army–London Eng. 1865—-William Booth
Seventh day adventism-Mass.1846—–Ellen G. White
Spiritualist church-U.S.1848——Andrew J. Davis
The unity school—-K.C. Mo.1889–Charles Fillmore
The united church of Canada- Canada 1925—Group
Unitarians—–Poland 16th C.—-Faustus Socinus
Universalist church—Greece 1053—Group
The Church of Christ–Jerusalem 33A.D.—–Jesus
Interesting list TD. I saw a list very similiar to this on a website recently. Except it didn’t divide up the Baptists as this one did. BUT the real difference between this list and that list is that at the end it said: Cathcolics – founded in Jerusalem 33 AD. Of course it was a Cathcolic site, but you have to admit they do have documented history on their side. When I was c of c I too obsessed over who was first, but who was first doesn’t bother me anymore. Its just not important to me anymore. Its Christ love that is important and I don’t think he really cares who was first. Do you?
The 6 steps that have been laid out
Who came up with that?
Can someone show me the BCV that lays out the plan in those 6 specific steps in that specific order?
Because as Corey said yesterday, theres no verse that seems to include it all (repentance, confession, belief, baptism)… so if theres not BCV that includes all 6 steps… who made the 6 steps up and put them in that order?
T.D., I think you are just trying to pick a fight. Did you even read the verses I gave you? You might want to-they are a blessing.
I never said anything about being united with the world-we should be set apart from the world-living as a light in it, but not of it…it is ALL about unity with Christ and His body. That is the point I keep trying to drive home!
No, not everyone will choose to follow Jesus or will be saved, unfortunately…but God’s desire is that ALL men be saved (1 Timothy 2:4), and that is my desire, too.
You guys who want to keep thinking you are the only “right” sect of people only divide the kingdom of God and ignore Jesus’ prayer for unity for the sake of some agenda.
We have been warned about that:
The entire law is summed up in a single command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other. ~Galatians 5:14-15
Ac 26:28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.
29 And Paul said, I would to God, that not only thou, but also all that hear me this day, were both almost, and altogether such as I am, except these bonds.
Gail said:
“When I was c of c I too obsessed over who was first, but who was first doesn’t bother me anymore. Its just not important to me anymore. Its Christ love that is important and I don’t think he really cares who was first. Do you?”
Good point, Gail…
and great question, Katie.
What are you ultimately trying to say, T.D.?
“but the fact that we contact the blood of Christ in baptism is incredible to say the least.”
?!?!??!!??
So Christ’s blood is now in the water?
That’s a whole new one to me. And I’ve heard plenty over the years.
Are you literally drinking the blood of Christ, and eating His body, when you partake of communion then? Because that’s a lot more explicitly stated in scripture than “baptism water is the blood of Christ”.
“You’re just throwing them out as excuses for your disobedience and disregard for the commandments of God.”
I try as best I can to follow the greatest commandment: “Love one another.”
You and the “Church of Christ in Name Only” do not show any one, any love at all!
You guys are only looking for reasons to hate and tear down other people.
You blame others for not following the commandments? Well…
YOU ARE DISOBEDIENT TO THE MOST IMPORTANT COMMANDMENT OF ALL!
And I cannot now but believe, that you really are preaching “another Christ”.
Any takers???
I said
“The 6 steps that have been laid out
Who came up with that?
Can someone show me the BCV that lays out the plan in those 6 specific steps in that specific order?
Because as Corey said yesterday, theres no verse that seems to include it all (repentance, confession, belief, baptism)… so if theres not BCV that includes all 6 steps… who made the 6 steps up and put them in that order?”
Chris, I understand where your frustration is coming from…but in Corey’s defense-he is not like these other guys, i.e. Johnny, “faithful” and others who show no love or grace to anyone-EVEN those who agree with their doctrine. In fact, they don’t even consider Corey a brother because he won’t join in their condemning agenda.
He has actually been very cordial, believes in grace, and has shown respect to those of us who do not agree.
Even though I do not agree with everything he says and believe he has also been misled by certain “church of Christ” doctrine; he has not ignored the idea of love by replacing it with slander and condemnation as these other guys have with their hatred.
Just wanted to throw that in…
yes I agree Katherine, Corey is a great, civil debater.
Gail
I know Jesus cares about His Church which is the first and only Church in which He is the Head.
Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
Ac 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
That was a very expensive price to pay, yeah I would say He definitly cares.
T.D.,
Only those who choose to not understand do not get this:
Christ’s CHURCH is made up of His people. He did not die to only specifically save those who would assemble in a church with the name “church of Christ” on the sign outside the door, and that’s it. If you really believe this, then you are not getting it.
He died for the people, for His church, His body-which is not limited to a physical, institutional church. It is made up of followers of Christ, who He has saved-whether we want to accept that or not-it is the truth.
I choose to accept and not cut off members of His body. Why would any honest Christian want to not do the same?
Let me clarify…
Only those who have been shown this truth, but choose to not accept it because it does not fit in with their pre-conceived agenda will choose to not understand.
Katherine,
I’ll admit not knowing much about him. If he is as you’ve described, then I’ll try to be better in my attitude toward him.
That said…
I can’t begin to describe how many times in my life I have seen legalism in various degrees. And always, I have watched it hurt people.
It’s not something I find easy to forgive. If you had seen the things I have regarding it, you would probably feel the same way too.
And I do not like the idea that something physical, like water or anything else, is given spiritual “power” i.e. baptism being required for salvation. Everything about that notion runs fully counter to the finished work of Christ on the cross. It is putting up another obstacle between us and God, when Christ came to remove all obstacles.
You know what this insistence on water baptism really sounds like? It’s extremely similar to the “Jesus Christ” of the Book of Mormon. Yeah, I’ve read that. And the Jesus of that book is an extreme legalist that Johnny Robertson and his kind would heartily approve of, if they didn’t know where it was coming from.
We are saved by the grace of God, because we recognize our need for a Savior and choose to accept His mercy. This is what Christ came to accomplish because of His love for us. This is all we should be preaching if we are to preach anything.
Anything that presents more than this for salvation, is not a thing of Christ at all.
Katie wrote:
The 6 steps that have been laid out
Who came up with that?
Can someone show me the BCV that lays out the plan in those 6 specific steps in that specific order?
Because as Corey said yesterday, theres no verse that seems to include it all (repentance, confession, belief, baptism)… so if theres not BCV that includes all 6 steps… who made the 6 steps up and put them in that order?
Those are good questions Katie. Let me try my best to answer them.
#1. Who came up with that?
God did. They’re laid out in His word, so He is the author of the requirements.
#2.who made the 6 steps up and put them in that order?
I’ve already said who made them, but the order is interesting. Obviously you must somehow hear the truth first – be it by preaching or reading of the inspired text. You can’t do any of the others if you don’t know why you’re doing them.
Acts 2:38 gives us some insight into the order, but is not the “perfect explanation” that we both agree is never found in one verse. The people heard Peter and believed him. Those two things come first. When they acknowledged what he said was true by saying “men and brethren what shall we do” they were indirectly confessing. Peter told them to repent and be baptized. Since we’re told that baptism puts us “into” Christ and Peter said “repent” first, we can logically see that repentance comes prior to baptism. We both agree that we can’t be in Christ and be unrepentant.
When we look at the example of the Ethiopian eunuch we see that he directly confessed Christ right before his baptism by saying “I believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God”. I wouldn’t say that there is a specific order of repentance before confession or vice versa, but they both clearly come before baptism.
The final step, living faithfully, can only be done by one who is in the faith (has become a Christian), so obviously that is the final step.
I think the important thing is that we acknowledge that the first five acts of obedience come PRIOR to salvation. I think we can see a pretty good outline of how they should occur, with the only thing we can’t say for sure is if confession comes before repentance or the other way around.
Chris,
know what’s ironic about that?
they compare baptists to mormons all the time, at least Johnny and crew consistently bring Mormons into the discussion to discredit baptists in particular which makes me laugh because I too have read through the book of Mormon and witnessed to/discussed with mormons on many occasions.
Just thought you would appreciate the irony.
Thank you Corey but thats not quite what I meant.
I guess what I mean by asking that. I definitely believe that each of the 6 steps are parts of the whole. Not denying that and I agree that individually we can find the 6 steps in the Bible at some point (yes including baptism).
My question is… why are we treating those 6 steps as if they are scripture when they aren’t. We are given the 6 seperate commands (maybe not commands but emphasis on each) but not ever in a specific order or pattern.
So my question is… by whose authority are we arranging those 6 steps and how do we know that is THE order for which things should take place. Does that make sense?
I understand that each step is important but I’m questioning the ordering and emphasis placed on the order. And if we are truly “silent where the Bible is silent” as the CofC claims to be… then why teach a 6 step method that is not in the Bible as such.
It’s not Mormons themselves that I wanted to take issue with, but the Book of Mormon. There is so much wrong with it on very many levels. And I think it stands as an example of the difference between Jesus as He is presented in the gospels, weighed against what Jesus invariably becomes in the hands of men. The biblical Jesus is a teacher of grace… but whenever interpreted by man’s carnal nature, Jesus become a stern giver of regulations absent of any grace.
oh certainly Chris
didn’t mean I take issues with the mormons personally… I believe they are wrong but it’s always fascinated me how many times I myself have been compared to a mormon by someone this board or Norm/Johnny… when my beliefs are very very very different from theirs based on the book of Mormon.
Chris, I know where you are coming from. I have seen legalism hurt people greatly, too and I absolutely hate it because it is not from God-only a tool from satan. That is why I speak out against what Johnny is preaching and more than that HOW he is preaching it. He is definitely preaching “another Christ”-one I don’t know and would not want to follow for it is a God who only condemns. There is nothing but hatred throughout his message and the way he presents it. It is an evil agenda I want nothing to do with, and will stand against it.
God’s beautiful message of love and grace should be proclaimed to the entire world because it provides HOPE and salvation to a world so badly in need of Him.
That is why it frustrates me when I see these guys act as they do and place God’s name on it-because it is not at all who God is, and it only turns people off to him.
“We are saved by the grace of God, because we recognize our need for a Savior and choose to accept His mercy. This is what Christ came to accomplish because of His love for us. This is all we should be preaching if we are to preach anything.”
Amen 🙂
Gail
I know Jesus cares about His Church which is the first and only Church in which He is the Head.
Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
Ac 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
That was a very expensive price to pay, yeah I would say He definitly cares.
Katherine
So you are going to use the parts of the Bible that you like and disreguard all the rest.
Eph 1:3 ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
You stated that (Romans 5:2, Ephesians 2:8), gives you hope in Jesus but yet deny the baptism that puts one into Jesus.
Ro 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Ga 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Where are you getting this, T.D.? Trying to pick a fight again?
I have NEVER said that I deny baptism! Go ahead, read through-you will not find that.
You have to be choosing intentionally to miss the point or not reading, because I am trying to speak truth (found in the Bible) to you. I choose to accept the ENTIRE Bible-I do not disregard what I read because it fits with what I have previously believed. I continue to study and read the Bible, searching for the will of God-and if I read something that does not jive with some pre-conceived idea or something that was taught to me that does not align with what God has said-then I will always go with what God has said over man, for my only desire is to follow God. If that means I face persecution for people who do not agree with me, then so be it-for my faith and trust are placed firmly in God 🙂
Been nice chatting with you all, were we talking or were we writing, were we reading or hearing?
Mr 4:23 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
Nathen,
You make a very good point…June 1 is a very good day to focus in prayer for your local coCsters. But its also a good day for me to focus my prayers toward you, Randy, Rick, Katie, Katherine, Chris and the many others who believe so much in God’s grace that you practice your love of Christ in this blog almost unendingly.
Who knows since I have completed the list Faithful submitted(like Katherine I hold true to #6) and regularly attend church with a coC sign in front of the building he might graciously accept my prayers. BTY…Do hypercons only use the King James? I don’t know, but legalism whether coC or Baptist is always quoted in KJV.
Keep up the faith and remember “The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective” James 5:16
On May 30, 2008 at 1:52 pm Chris Knight Said: I can’t begin to describe how many times in my life I have seen legalism in various degrees. And always, I have watched it hurt people.
It’s not something I find easy to forgive. If you had seen the things I have regarding it, you would probably feel the same way too.
Chris you are so right. I too have witnessed what legalism does to people. It seems it has more to do with controlling a person than anything. This mindset has destroyed (to varying degrees) most of my family. Its so destructive it is very hard to forgive. But we have to or it will eat us up.
On May 30, 2008 at 2:04 pm T.D. Said: That was a very expensive price to pay, yeah I would say He definitly cares.
TD, really. I think you are being dishonest here. I think you knew I meant that Jesus doesn’t care who was “first”, not that Jesus doesn’t care about us. But then I think you knew what I meant didn’t you? You know doing this typical c of c thing of misrepresenting someone’s statement doesn’t work anymore TD. With technology, now people can see what people have said and how others respond. So you guys are going to have to update your tactics for the modern age! There’s a guy on Topix who is running up against the same problem.
Hey Katherine, I guess TD had to run away when the heat got too much. Remind you of anyone we know? lol
Wow Dennis, was that the rare “double-slam” that you unleashed there?
God bless you, T.D. 🙂
I really didn’t mean it to be a slam as much as an observation. I also didn’t mean to spell Nathan’s name incorrectly.
I actually thought it was funny.
You thought it was funny that he spelled my name incorrectly? That’s unkind.
😉
if i can show the sinners prayer in the bible i would like that thousand in cash please.
luke 18:9-14 god be merciful to me a sinner.
now read the whole thing, one went away justified
and the other guy sounds like faithless or his leader.
sounds like a sinner praying to me heck it was jesus example. small bills faithless.
lee
On May 30, 2008 at 10:41 am answeringchurchofchrist Said:
faithful,
“Didn’t Jesus himself often answer questions by giving questions? Why does that make you uncomfortable?
Meanwhile, you say that the Martinsville church of Christ is the same church/different location. Then why do you not practice like that same church?”
“On May 30, 2008 at 12:10 pm answeringchurchofchrist Said:
faithful:
First question – nope. I’m just a TV/youtube fan. I’ve driven by the building several times. Which reminds me – do you folks own that building?
Second question – how many times did Jesus answer a question with a question – which to the asker would feel like he was being ignored?
So you admit you’ve NEVER been to the service yet you speak with authority as to what we do or don’t do? Interesting . I think that’s called hearsay!
“In fact, in recounting his conversion in Galatians 1, Paul does not mention baptism at all!”
Chris Paul does not recount his conversion in Galations 1. He does so 3 times in the book of acts where he does talk about baptism. Do you not know where the accounts of conversion are?
“This mindset has destroyed (to varying degrees) most of my family. Its so destructive it is very hard to forgive. But we have to or it will eat us up.”
Gail I would love to hear about what your talking about here. It sounds as if your family has experianced church disipline? When your children were growing up did you disipline them or just let them run wild?
Lee that man was in the temple and was a jew. Jews already had a relationship with God so they were not an in the same position as people today. Nice try though. Next
i knew you wouldnt pay up.
……….he wont even take a quote from jesus.
now go ahead and tell us how thankful you are that your not like us sinners.
see yourself in that scripture anywhere faithless?
and just how did a “relationship” save this man?
prove that a jew was right with god just because he was a jew. only if he kept the law. so dont try to bait and switch faithless. save the double talk for the ones you hang out with on sunday .
now how bout my money?
lee
Lee you haven’t earned the money . Read the offer . I know you can read ?
Lee,
Pr 17:28 Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.
(KJV)
faithless,
matt 5:25-26 now pay up quickly while you are still in the way. lets say 50 cent on the dollar.
still havent answered the previous questions, you know the lies from your leader.
im waiting.
lee