Saul Becomes Paul

 

Saul on the Road to Damascus

Saul on the Road to Damascus

“Now it happened, as I journeyed and came near Damascus at about noon, suddenly a great light from heaven shone around me.  And I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?’  So I answered, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said to me, ‘I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting.’ 

“And those who were with me indeed saw the light and were afraid, but they did not hear the voice of Him who spoke to me.  So I said, ‘What shall I do, Lord?’ And the Lord said to me, ‘Arise and go into Damascus, and there you will be told all things which are appointed for you to do.’  And since I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of those who were with me, I came into Damascus. 

 

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89 thoughts on “Saul Becomes Paul

  1. I couldn’t find a place for direct feedback/messages to the blog author (also couldn’t find where the author is identified), so I’m leaving a comment on the most recent post.

    I’m glad I found the site tonight, and I look forward to coming back to the conversation. I haven’t had much time to go through it, yet, but I am most intrigued. Born and raised in the Church of Christ (yes, I just capitalized church), a student in CoC schools from first grade through my bachelor’s degree from Harding and my master’s degree from ACU, a CoC youth minister for a couple years and CoC family minister for four years, and having recently left the CoC for a local independent non-denominational church – well, this site caught my eye.

    I highly recommend Mike Cope’s blog (www.preachermike.com) for your Change Agents blogroll.

    With Hope in Him,
    Roger

  2. Hi Roger!

    Thanks for stopping by. I appreciate your comment, and look forward to your contributions in the future. I will warn you, it can get rather nutty around here from time to time, but we really are trying to be a place where serious discussion can take place.

    Thanks also for the link. I’ll check it out.

    Blessings,
    Mr. Answer

  3. Yep, Nathan-I meant to give you Mike’s link. He was my preacher back in Abilene, and I love him. Definitely a grace-filled man who is widely known and respected among churches of Christ. He is a humble man who is not afraid to tackle the difficult issues, but also knows when to step back and not say anything.

    Anyway, definitely check him out-he is on my daily blogroll and actually spoke at the World Convention I wrote about. I imagine you will be blessed 🙂

  4. Nathan,

    Thanks for the gracious welcome. I’m not worried about how nutty things get here – I’m a marriage and family therapist and former minister. Believe me, I can deal with nutty! 🙂

    Just wanted to comment that the blog I referenced, http://www.preachermike.com was actually the source of your first substantial post, back in November 07, a post regarding instrumental music.

  5. Names in NT times are a little strange to us. The Jewish tradition was to have your given name linked to the name of your father. Thus, “Simon bar Jonah” or “Simon, son of Jonah.” Paul would have been called such by his Jewish friends and family. The Roman/Greek tradition was your given name associated with your place of birth — thus, “Saul of Tarsus,” Saul’s given name linked to a town in the province of Cilicia where he was born.

    In that time, names were seen as having meaning — as revealing something about the inner workings of the person. The name “Saul” was a mixed bag, so to speak, having both positive and negative connotations. Postively, the name of the first king of Israel had also been “Saul.” Negatively, this same king had acted evily towards David, and died in a shameful way. In other words, it may have conjured up negative ideas in the minds of the people who heard it (for a modern parallel, consider that people rarely name their children “Judas” these days, because of the negative association with the betrayer of Jesus). On the other hand, “Paul” is a fully Romanized name (meaning “small”), with no Jewish tradition attached to it.

    So, why was the apostle’s name changed? We can speculate that this Romanization of his name is an embracing of his mission as an apostle to the Gentiles (see Acts 15). We can also speculate that this new name is a break with the legacy of his covenant-breaking namesake.

    As far as the actual time and place of that name change, this is not clear. It didn’t happen at his conversion (Acts 10) and we see the transition made between Saul and Paul in Acts 13:9. After that, Paul is the name used to refer to him.

    Did God himself change Paul’s name? If he did, and we don’t know for sure, this divine name change is probably very important, not in the actual name or even the meaning of the name, but that *God* changed his name. Like Abraham, Jacob, John, Jesus–this man was set apart by God for a special mission by being re/named by God himself.

    If it wasn’t done by God, then Paul must have done it, perhaps reflective of his position as the “least of the Apostles”, a pun on the meaning of “Paul” in Greek.

    source: http://www.thirdmill.org/answers/answer.asp/file/99746.qna/category/nt/page/questions/site/iiim

  6. I think it’s a great idea, especially if that person had a really terrible background. It’s a way of showing that a break from the past has been made.

  7. wow! a person that is not one of the 7 on this blog.
    Nathan,
    I just wanted to repost that in fact our goal is to destroy denominationalism.

    Now if you want to spin this into physical fighting go ahead.
    Everyone reading knows that we are the ones who are threatened with physical violence, when all we do is bring up argumentation that is our tool to destroy.

    Try to sensationalize this if you like. We all know Chris is the source of this anyway.
    It is a sad commentary on your blog when Chris Knight becomes the mind spring.

    It is even sadder that you can’t put together a blog that will generate interest from your own thoughts. You need my name to even keep people coming here.

    If this is not true? Take my name off and see how you do.

    Answering the church of Christ is really “riding the coat tails of the church of Christ.”

    Sad but true.

    Lets see if he will try or will we all watch him continue to get his steam from me?

    Chris couldn’t get his little show on broadcast without lies about answering me.

    Birds of a feather flock together.

  8. JR,

    Once again, reread the original post. Perhaps what you meant to say was that your goal was to destroy denominationalism. But it’s not what you said. I don’t hold any malice towards you for what you wrote, but I would love to see you make it right – not just offering excuses and “you know what I meant”s. Humility is cool.

    As to what this blog is about and my “riding your coat tails”- notice two things: One, I have taken your name off. I did it months ago. Two, I am not plugging myself here. I am not selling advertisements. I am not asking for nor earning money here. I am not writing a book and trying to sell it. The only thing this blog is doing is discussing the sorts of things you, JO and NF teach. That’s it. Why is that such a problem for you?

    Yes, it does often turn to discussions of your teachings or methods. After all, I am trying to open dialogue among people who are in your area of influence – the viewing area of WSGR. It’s funny to me that you and your colleagues don’t take this as an opportunity to have adult discussions. Yes, sometimes things here go in bad directions – but oftentimes it’s because of the inflammatory or just plain disrespectful comments that people from your camp make. Sometimes those comments come from the other side, and I try to encourage everyone to be civil.

    As to Chris, what I don’t understand is why you engage him here, and not on his blog. He has a much better designed, more established blog that actually talks about you specifically in posts. I no longer do that. The recent exception has been when you misrepresented the “defeat destroy” comment last week on TV. I wrote a response, and I thought it was done respectfully.

    Anyway, JR, if you and your fellows don’t want to post here, then don’t. It could be an educational experience for all seven of us if you took it seriously.

    Or, could it be that that is the problem – that you don’t perceive that there are enough people here to warrant your attention? Remember the parables of Luke 15…

    Praying for you today, JR.

  9. By the way, JR, here’s the report from the blog as to the different search terms people used yesterday that led them to us:

    Search Views
    answering the church of christ 27
    church of christ powerpoint presentation 7
    church of christ doctrine 4
    church of christ cult “little c” 3
    church of christ world convention 2
    “communion only on sunday” 2
    armando deloa church of christ 2
    church of christ changes 2
    richland hills church instrument 1
    enoch’s levels of heaven 1

    I didn’t edit that list at all. Notice the names that are not on that list.

  10. Denominations are biblical.

    I’ve done quite a lot of looking into the subject in the past few days, and I’m more convinced of it now than ever: that there is nothing wrong with denominations.

    If I am wrong, then I pray that God might show me my error and persuade me according to His way: that being, that His correction might be anointed with love and grace, as I try (and all too often fail) to do also.

    Will be writing more about this on my own blog soon.

  11. You know what fascinates me most about this “dialogue”?

    People like Katherine and Nathan and Truth and a number of others here, share their thoughts with extreme articulation and dignity. You read their words and it’s obvious that these are people who have devoted much time to study and devotion. Who have lent their minds to God so that He might edify them according to His purpose, for His glory.

    Katherine, you especially in the past few days have been a wellspring of refreshing thought!

    And then, there is Johnny Robertson and Mitch/”faithful” and that bunch…

    Compare Katherine’s words, her poise and elegance and the depth of her thoughts, to those of Robertson and “faithful”.

    Need I say more?

  12. Thank you Chris. And you are so right about Katherine, I can’t even say enough about how inspiring she is.

  13. “Everyone reading knows that we are the ones who are threatened with physical violence, when all we do is bring up argumentation that is our tool to destroy.”

    The people who have been followed by members of your cult and had their family members and children harassed would beg to differ with you, Robertson.

    No one in this community that I know of has threatened you or your cult with “violence”. But there are plenty who are feeling – with some justification, I might add – that they need to take measures to protect themselves and their loved ones… and the impetus for that motivation comes from you and your cult, Robertson.

    That you admit even know that you are out to “destroy”, is not conducive to your cause.

    And you wouldn’t know a real argument/debate if it bit you in the…

  14. I don’t think Johnny even realizes that when have truly accepted the Lord in our life and choose to live for Him it’s not us who does the changing it is God who changes us. I definitely want to give God all the glory for what he has done in my life and for making me who I am today. When we do good things in our own flesh it can make us feel good, but it is nothing compared to the joy you have when you do something good and you know it is God who is doing it working in you. Johnny may have stopped robbing stores and may do some good deeds here and there but that’s because he thinks he has to buy his salvation which that would mean every time he sins, which he definitely sins, he looses his salvation. It is sad when someone can’t accept the FREE gift that God gave us. Johnny doesn’t really show God working in him. It is more important to Johnny to try to be mean and hurtful toward others than to show the love God has for them, I guess that’s because Johnny doesn’t really know Jesus and doesn’t know how great Gods love is.

  15. Double standard? Why is it that Chris Knight can go after Johnny on a personal level here but I was told to take it another site when talking with others here? More double standards. More dishonesty from the denominational people here.

    Chris how is what you’re doing showing the love of christ? LOL

    Double standard?

  16. Mitch,
    There are people who are right now feeling very seriously threatened because of what Johnny Robertson and his followers might do. If having dissidents followed and their children badgered alone is not enough to warrant concern, then what is?

    There is also the matter of a man proclaiming that he is God. I don’t know about you, but anytime I hear that, it pops a huge red flag in my own mind.

    I posted what I did, and not without considerable forethought, because I sincerely felt that the world does need to know what Robertson is capable of doing. He has not demonstrated that he is a remorseful human being, or that he is regretful of his past. The only thing that he is known for is his zeal to hurt others.

    How far would he go to hurt the ones he hates, Mitch?

    How far would you go, Mitch, yourself?

    If Johnny Robertson has no qualms about pulling a gun on a man in order to steal money, or leaves a man to nearly die from a car crash that he, Johnny Robertson, caused, and then thirty years later he boasts that he is out to “defeat destroy” those who he considers to be his enemies…

    …then I think it demands to be an open question as to what Robertson, and by extension his followers, are capable of doing.

  17. Johnny thinks this is all about him and he is so wrong. This is about God and how much He loves people. God loves us so much He gives us His grace to save us and He extends His grace and makes it available through Jesus to everyone. Because we are sinners and we always will sin it is humanly impossible for any of us to earn our salvation. God doesn’t owe us anything for the things we have done. None of us deserve His grace but that’s the love of God and He gave us Jesus to die and sacrifice Himself to save us from our sins. And in knowing this I am in awe of God and because I love Him so much I cannot imagine life without Him and I want Him to shine in me for others to see His love. Johnny and others like him can make their list of everything they think they have to do before God will save them and they can try their best to twist, overlook and ignore the word of God but it will still be there. We all fall short of the the glory of God and it is by His grace through Jesus Christ He has saved us.

  18. Amen, Truth.

    You are especially right about what you said earlier: that God changes us. We cannot change ourselves. It is not in our nature. The greatest evidence for the grace of God is that He does let us grow and change into something better than what we on our own can accomplish.

    A friend commented today that Johnny Robertson is not a man who has died to himself. He is still clinging to his carnal nature. That is what we are seeing, that is the only thing he can possibly show us. He has not died so that Christ can live within him.

    I suppose he is right, and in Johnny Robertson and his followers we see exhibited human nature that is worse than absent of Christ: it is fleeing from Christ. Ironically, they do so in the name of Christ.

  19. The things you are bringing up about Johnny were done 30 yeas ago. He repented from all that and has lived a christian life ever since. He hates nobody , even though I think some try really hard to make him hate them. He hates the false doctrine that you all spread as I hate that too. We care for people and that’s why we do what we do. Go ahead and spread your lies . we know that what your father the devil would have you do and we have faith that the truth will win out in the end

  20. Chris is right, Johnny tries to provoke people into heated arguments that can lead anywhere not just on TV but at peoples private homes and I think people should be aware of the very violent behavior Johnny is capable of.

  21. hes talking about this site and randys response
    to chriss comment on dancing right now.
    but he was saying how he rebuked randy for asking about jason.

  22. He did not say anything about rbuking Randy and I hope Randy asks for a dvd to see you lying. He said he showed Randy verses on it. More dishonesty Lee? Is you position so weak you have to lie? Chris out to be happy guy getting his name back on the tube.LOL

  23. the first half hour was a rerun of his wed martinsville
    show. about womens dress.
    he then showed the tape on some girls dancing.
    now it seems to be his morning service and hes using
    a slide show on this site

  24. Interesting. He comes here and tells us how inconsequential the blog is, but for the second week in a row, he’s discussing things being said here. But I’d bet he doesn’t give out the URL.

  25. By the way, blog search stats from yesterday:

    Search Views
    answering the church of christ 41
    church of christ doctrine 5
    what does the bible say johnny robertson 2
    former church of christ debates 2
    answering church christ 2
    how the church of christ can grow 1
    where does the bible teach that we must 1
    church in scotland where alexander campb 1
    changed forever in jesus name 1
    the lord’s supper by max lucado 1

    Again, not doctored.

  26. now it sounds like a vague comparison to paul
    as he is being made a laughing stock by everyone finding out of his past.

  27. I think you did a great job. I appreciate Corey and his manner of discussing when he comes to this site, but he really showed his bias in that conversation. Insisting that Peter’s recounting of the tale somehow trumps the first version? That’s really trying to force a round peg into a square hole.

    The crazy thing is, if you look at Acts 10, he hasn’t said very much when the Holy Spirit falls on Cornelius and his household – but he’s said enough. Who knows how much more they talked? If they talked for even another thirty minutes, that first little bit would be enough to qualify as “beginning to speak.” The point is, here are the order of events as described in Acts 10 & 11:

    1) God communicates with Cornelius
    2) Cornelius sends for Peter
    3) Peter has his vision
    4) Peter goes to Cornelius
    5) Peter tells Cornelius about Jesus
    6) The Holy Spirit falls on Cornelius

    And so on.

    Good job, lee!

  28. “Chris out to be happy guy getting his name back on the tube.LOL”

    Mitch/faithful, a friend called to say that Robertson should pay me ‘cuz “half of his sermon was written by you Chris!”

    He also said that when Robertson put my words on the screen in the sanctuary, that was probably “the best written material that church ever had!”

    By the way Robertson, thanks for getting in my discussion of denominations and why there’s nothing wrong with them. Why there is precedent for them in scripture, even. I was going to post that on my blog, but you did a darned good job broadcasting it on television.

    And I also got Johnny Robertson to talk about the movie The Blues Brothers in his own church. Who else has pulled off that trick? 😛

    (This is almost as much outrageous good fun as blowing up a schoolhouse to run for Board of Education…)

  29. johnny is using the baptism of john in acts 19:3
    and saying how that wasnt a scriptual baptism.
    however he neglects to say that the apostles minus
    paul must have felt that it was enough for them.
    were they all baptized in the name of jesus for the
    remission of sin?
    lee

  30. What’s the thesis of his broadcast? Does he have one, or is it more of why everyone else is wrong and he and his crew are right?

  31. Interesting thought Lee… Is there any mention of any of the disciples having been “rebaptized” after the death/resurrection of Jesus?

  32. only paul.
    i have had the the coc men tell me that was how god
    saved the 12 disciples.
    special pass i guess. but if you look
    at what does the bible say, all of judea and a lot of jeruselem were baptised by john and that some or all of the disciples were disciples of john.
    so all of those people didnt need to be rebaptised if the apostles didnt , right?

  33. “When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,) He left Judaea, and departed again into Galilee.” John 4:1-3

    So, Jesus’ disciples baptized, but Jesus didn’t. Who baptized the disciples? One cofC website says this: “Since His disciples were performing the baptisms, it is safe to assume that they had been baptized in the name of Jesus, since it was Jesus who authorized this baptism.”

    http://www.lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVanswers/2004-01-14.htm

    “Safe to assume”? Would our local cofC agree with that?

  34. True, but (according to cofC doctrine) was that good enough? They always bring up Acts 19. Did that apply to the 12?

  35. We all seem to assume alot sometimes don’t we..except the coC says that when we assume we are wrong and when they assume ..well it is almost Biblical!

  36. i can only say what john or norm has said.
    the baptism of the 12 in johns baptism was all they needed to be saved. they didnt need to be re baptised
    for the remission of sin after jesus death.
    well then it must have been enough for all those baptised in johns baptism before the death of jesus.
    god is no respecter of persons?
    lee

  37. So as of tonight, I am officially Johnny Robertson’s worst enemy. He declared as much to his cult this morning, and then throughout the WGSR broadcast area.

    My reaction? “Kewl!”

    😛

  38. It’s like the silence issue. They are silent where the Bible is silent, except where it propels their agenda. For example, the New Testament is silent on the subject of musical instruments in worship – but they say it is condemned. Also, the Bible is silent on the subject of how often you should observe the Lord’s Supper – but they say if you don’t do it weekly, you are condemned.

  39. Jesus said…

    Matthew 5:44
    Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you.

    Luke 6:35
    But love ye your enemies, and do good.

  40. Chris, I had already assumed that sometime ago considering the amount attention JR was giving to you..I am sure you already knew it..should I congratulate you on the confirmation? 🙂

  41. has randy moved closer to johnnys side?
    johnny said he was well known in the martinsville congregation.
    i believe thats what he said.
    just asking randy.
    lee

  42. Rick is printing the brochures of congratulations: “The Knight of Nakedness is coC Enemy Number One” rofl

  43. Seriously though, folks…

    I’ve never considered Johnny Robertson to be an “enemy”.

    He is a very wrong and conceited individual, who thinks nothing of hurting other people for sake of deceiving as many as he can with his twisted doctrine. A doctrine that denies the grace of God and the saving power of Christ. It is a doctrine that makes it impossible to know the joy that comes with the freedom of being in Christ. In that regard, Robertson’s “Church of Christ” is the dire antithesis of the church as the Bible describes it.

    But as I said during the live broadcast that night, I have to pity such a man.

    Pity him. But also be on guard for him. Because this is a man who it can’t honestly be said that we know what he’s capable of doing. And I think that he’s capable of doing quite a bit of harm. Not in the “doctrinal” sense that he no doubt wants to convey, but in the sense that if I am now indeed his biggest enemy, that he may well see it as his God-ordained duty to “defeat destroy” me. As he may try to destroy anyone else, also.

    To Johnny Robertson himself…

    I will not hate you. I will continue to pray for you. But I cannot trust you either. Especially after your show tonight.

    If you wish to be my enemy, I will not reciprocate with hatred. That has never been my way. I will continue to try to love you as Jesus instructed.

    But know this, Robertson: you are far from the first “enemy” that I have had. You are not even the worst enemy that I have encountered. There have been others far higher up the rung than you have been. They have done much worse things than what I’m anticipating from you. And there will be worse in the years to come, no doubt.

    By the grace of God, I am still standing. And if it be in His will, I will stand even more.

    If you wish to hate me, fine. I could not believe that you would tell your congregation that you wouldn’t even accept so much as a handshake or some other good tiding from those you deem unworthy of fellowship. I met several Amish on my recent trip, and as much as their own doctrine calls for them to be separate from the world not even they were so withdrawn as to not greet a fellow believer.

    That such a condition exists in your congregation, Robertson, is so very sad. I have to pity you all the more.

    You can hate me all you want. I won’t hate you in kind, Robertson. I hope you’ll understand that.

    Just as much as I hope you’ll understand that I subscribe to the philosophy of warfare which teaches that you never start a fight… but you always finish it.

  44. On “What Does the Bible Say?”, JR is talking about Chris Knight.
    At “The Knight Shift”, Chris Knight is talking about JR.
    Here, they are both talking about each other.

    Chris and JR:

    I acknowledge that this blog has played a part in the inflaming of your differences, and I apologize for that. As I’ve said, I have no personal stake, financial or otherwise, in this blog gaining readers. I admit that I have been wrong for letting this be a place where that flame has been fueled – although I’m not sure exactly how I could have stopped it.

    Chris and JR, both of you men consider yourselves to be Christ-followers, even if one may not consider the other to be. Please prayerfully consider your actions and words. And remember what Paul encourages those who follow Christ…

    “Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts…” Colossians 3:15

    Incidentally, the interesting thing in all of this is Charles Roark. Knowing both men, he was in a position, sitting directly in the middle of Chris and JR, to mediate things. Instead, he chose to inflame things, apparently for the sake of attempting to gain more viewers to his TV station. That’s not surprising, but it is disappointing.

    Charles, if you read this blog (and I don’t know if he does), it’s not too late for you to be an agent of healing and reconciliation rather than division.

  45. On August 10, 2008 at 9:40 pm lee Said:
    has randy moved closer to johnnys side?

    On August 10, 2008 at 9:48 pm answeringchurchofchrist Said:
    lee – Randy has said before that he used to be a part of that congregation

    Lee – I am not on anyones side – I just happen to agree with some of what Johnny stands for and I agree with some of what you and others stand for…why make this a Johnny issue…when its not….to me we should talk about what they teach…who cares who Johnny is or anyone else for that matter…

    Nathan – I never was “part” of their congregation far as being a “member”. I visited two tent locations ( Bassett ) and their meeting place at Martinsville. As I stated last week, Johnny does a great job teaching on Sunday mornings…that may make some mad or may make others think I am taking sides, but I will not lie for the sake of being “anti-johnny”. The man really can teach above most I have heard…

  46. Thanks for the clarification, Randy. the term I used, “part”, was pretty ambiguous. And you’re right – that’s why I made the last posting. I’ve grown tired of this being such a divisive place – and it seems to descend into that too often.

    I’m actually thinking of changing the way things are done here even more. I’ll talk about that later.

  47. On August 10, 2008 at 8:10 pm faithful Said:
    He did not say anything about rbuking Randy and I hope Randy asks for a dvd to see you lying. He said he showed Randy verses on it. More dishonesty Lee

    – I’m a bit lost…I don’t watch the show, but may start. Faithful, what DVD are you referring to where I can see lies?? Faithful, it would be great if we could talk about the bible and biblical topics with you guys on here. It’s so easy to let things turn the wrong direction – why cant we just pick some biblical topics and debate/discuss them on here??

  48. What verses did Johnny show me ?? I guess I need to watch the show to figure out whats going on. Lee, I did make the comment about me moving closer to the church of Christ position on music….simply because I see music today in the church as entertainment, and not worship. Anyone with an ounce of honesty can see that we are being entertained today in many churches. When David danced and played before God …it was him own his own and it was before God not before man as a means of enterainment.

  49. You know, it is often a defensive reaction to attack an individual’s character, personality and intentions when “strong” debate of and disagreements on opinions are being engaged. A person’s expression of their opinion is a rather sensitive and well..personal thing. Having your opinions along with your character, personality and intentions strongly attacked can bring out the “ugly” side of your personhood.

    The aspect that deepens this differing of opinions expressed here, in my opinion, is what appears to be a dissimilar acceptance of one another. The prevailing perception of our local coC leaders is that they view the rest of us as heretics, as false teachers, as the unsaved damned by God because of our differing views of interpretation of Scripture. While on the other hand, I beleive, that a majority of us who post here consider the local coC leaders as brothers in Christ who err primarily in their approach and less in their doctrine.

    The use of hatred, disdain and spitefulness towards others often pull out the same. It is not a pretty picture for any of us. And the greater sadness is that although I may pray for God’s forgiveness of my attitudes and reactions to those who oppose me and seek a more positive approach I am not so sure the opposition will do the same. None-the-less I shall take the higher ground.

  50. On August 10, 2008 at 9:33 pm answeringchurchofchrist Said:
    Jesus said…

    Matthew 5:44
    Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you.

    Luke 6:35
    But love ye your enemies, and do good.

    – okay, here is what Johnny will say. Its like you seeing your child running into the road, do you let him? Do you softly say “please dont run in the road” or do you scream loudly and some may even spank the child – all out of love. Johnny may love everyone enough to stop them from running into the road of religion and he does what it takes to get their attn. in hopes of stopping them…

  51. Thank you Chris and Truth for your encouraging words from yesterday.

    I am not sure what good it is doing beyond that, though-since they have completely written me off as a “fake Christian” and won’t even listen to what God could actually be speaking to them. It gets pretty frustrating when it falls on deaf ears-I can’t even imagine how God feels. I am just glad He is patient, loving, and full of grace-or I would be in a heap of trouble! I keep having to remind myself that He is ultimately in control and will work all things out-that the light will always shine in the dark, and pray that love will prevail.

  52. okay, I’m gonna go where none has gone on here yet…Rick, I know if youre a baptist, you do NOT believe in women preachers, if so, invite Kat to preach at your church. I am not sure where Nathan stands on this, I gather with Kat…I dont see any woman given approval to preach-seems Paul made that clear…if I am wrong, please shwo me thats its ok for a woman to lead a group of men and woman in worship……Kat, please dont take me the wrong way…Im not in attack mode, just trying to understand things

  53. maybe so 🙂

    what is your take on women preachers? I am open to this and willing to hear each side…

  54. What are you trying to say, that I cannot teach on here because I am a woman? Where did that come from? That just fuels the fire for their argument.

    Who ever said I was a preacher, anyway?!

  55. By the way, I am not going to get into this discussion on here-I don’t think it is the right time or right place.

    I do have study material I can provide, but will not get into this here.

  56. like Rick said, I am assuming too much. I thought you had made some comments in that regard before, thats all. I dont mean any harm. I dont have a problem with you posting things on here – I like reading your comments.

  57. Well, I feel like part of the reason they write me off, yet will engage with other men is because I am a woman. That is why I don’t understand why you brought it up right now-because I think it just adds fuel to that fire. I have no limits and don’t need permission to say anything on here.

    It is a frustrating journey sometimes following the will of God-but I follow and He blesses.

  58. What do you mean how far can a woman go?

    You need to study the entire subject as a whole-not just coming at it from that angle.

    I can send you some further material if you would like.

  59. I’m Just trying to get on a biblical subject and avoid the feuding, that’s all. I don’t recall woman preachers being addressed on here and just was curious where each stand on the issue. I was raised to believe women can lead service, preach, and even be called a Pastor. When I look at the bible, its seems to teach woman are not permitted to teach over a man. I could be wrong and willing to hear each side….Im not here for a fight….just stating what I believe the bible to teach

  60. Women have a prominent role in Scripture. Just look at the lineage of Jesus described in Matthew 1. And throughout Scriptures it appears that both men and women are challenged to the same rigors of discipleship. Each of the Gospels makes it clear that a person’s importance is based neither on sex nor on blood relationship but on the ability to respond to God as Jesus responds.

  61. I agree Rick and have looked at this a few times, but the question was “can a woman preach in Church “over men”

  62. It is without doubt an issue of Biblical interpretation. I confess I have wrestled with this issue over the years. There are times when I am pulled both ways on the issue. My greatest hinge is on this passage: 1 Timothy 2:11-12 proclaims, “A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.” The phrase I have a problem is this “I do not permit a woman to teach”. Was Paul expressing his own personal view or a teaching of Christ? I don’t see anywhere in the Gospels where Christ expressed this but yet Christ only choose men as part of the twelve. But there are a lot of reasons that I beleive should be considered in that selection process, such as how would it have appeared if Jesus, a single man, choose 12 women or even a few women to accompany him and other men on their travels?

    ( I will have to stop at that.. I really must leave to take care of somethings that I am already late in doing..but will continue my thoughts later on today..)

  63. I have wrestled with this issue too, but like you pointed out, Paul seems to band woman from preaching over a man. I think scripture was God breathed and don’t quite think Paul was giving his opinion on the matter. It would seem from the context that there were women in Paul’s day disrupting the service by asking their husbands questions and Paul commanded them to be silent and ask the questions at home….but, he also goes beyond that and says a woman can not preach over a man….and I don’t see any way around that. Most of the women I have seen preach come from the Pentecostal movement, and honestly they knew very little bible. I think KAT knows more than most men…and I love reading what she writes, but does a woman have approval of God to preach – I cant find that approval.

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