For An Example of the Lord’s Church in Action…

Came across this story earlier and thought I’d share it for a real example of the Lord’s church in action.  It doesn’t matter the name of the church on the sign, they are becoming all things to all people so that they can share the Gospel of Jesus Christ (1 Cor 9).  Kudos, church!

Skate Church’ brings in new worshippers

By Melissa Maynarich, NEWS 9

ADA, Okla. — There’s a new kind of church down in Ada, and it’s attracting kids with a bad reputation.

The makeshift skate park in the parking lot of an Ada church has become the hippest Tuesday night hangout in town. It has given skateboarders a place to land kick flips and worship the Lord.

“Skate Church” was the idea of a Christian man who saw a need to reach out to a group of teens he felt were overlooked and misunderstood.

“Found some hard core kids, kids that definitely had some issues, and definitely some work that needed to be done” Skate Church founder Dennis Cavins said.

Cavins went out, got the kids and brought them to the church with promises of a free meal and access to skateboarding ramps. The biggest perk was that no adults wanted to kick them off their property.

“I was just wanting to get free skateboards. I was just coming here, getting free food, wanting to hang out, hang out with friends. But man, the feeling that God is in this place, it’s clear when you get into that building,” skater Ethan Hickerson said.

At Skate Church, riders worship with a rock band, and hear a message.

“There’s something better than drugs, alcohol, sex, any of that stuff. There’s something better than that,” Trinity Baptist Youth Minister Scott Sullivan said.

This idea is making a difference for these teens.

“I would not be at a church. I hated church before this place, and now, this is just awesome man. I’d probably be drunk or something,” Hickerson said.

Skate Church proves that it’s not always just about working with people in the church, sometimes it’s about going to the people.

“God had called us to the mission. It was one of those things where it just felt absolutely that nothing was going to turn me away from that thing,” Cavins said.

Skate Church is every Tuesday night at Trinity Baptist Church in Ada.

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285 thoughts on “For An Example of the Lord’s Church in Action…

  1. I think I will start a “club church” …maybe set up a church like the clubs with all of the modern music, maybe even some Karaoke and a dance floor…maybe this will draw in some of them club folks. Heck, I could even start a “bowling for Christ” …a bowling church where the bowlers could come and bowl and hear about Jesus all the same time. Or, maybe a tuff-man church, where they come in and lift weights and see who is the strongest………oops, they already have a group of people doing this. Give me a break…….a skate board church…pathetic

  2. Or maybe we could have a home group church, and meet in homes instead of buildings, that would be radical, share life together etc.! But you are right it’s better to keep our standards let we get some stain on our white garments we will wear at the end! The sick are going to die anyway, why should we risk getting sick also or being condemned by God for stopping to help them when we are on the way to the real church building where God’s people meet!

    Jesus told the Good Samaritan story for a reason! It was more then a racial meaning to the text, it had to do with religious beliefs getting in the way of doing good for someone! The Pharisees would have been unclean touching that man so it was better he die then they be made unclean and have to go through the rights to satisfy that!

  3. On October 20, 2008 at 8:25 am walkinginlove Said:
    Or maybe we could have a home group church, and meet in homes instead of buildings

    – people do this already – even people from Johnnys meeting place have met in homes…but they were not on skate boards and things. They were doing the same as they would have done in the building…..the buiding means nothing…

  4. Randy,

    I’m surprised you feel this way. The sort of thinking the folks in this church are doing is amazing! They realize that there is a group of kids that are on a path to destruction, and they go to where those kids are and meet them where they are. What in the world is wrong with that? Would you rather those kids just keep skateboarding on the streets and nobody sharing Jesus with them?

    Did you read the quote from the one boy, that he HATED the Lord’s church before this outreach started. Now? He enjoys it. Why? Because, like Paul, the folks in that church are becoming all things to all people.

    They get two thumbs up from this blog.

  5. randy,
    i want you to step back and listen to yourself.
    you are so closely aligned with john that it is difficult to tell the difference.
    i dont recognize the guy who once posted decent with him.
    you seem to think that by leaning to his side he will think more highly of you.
    it wont happen,in fact from what i see he only seems to despise those who are lukewarm to his way of thinking.if you can recall jesus ate with those people who were looked down on.
    dosent it stand to reason he might have worshiped with them too? the pharasees tried to condemn jesus for his actions on many occasions but there was no sin in reaching sinners in the mud.
    the big problem is that most of us have forgotten what it was like to be lost. we some how reach a point where we believe that we were not that bad when jesus found us.
    truth is even if you grew up on a preachers coat tail, you were just as filthy as anyone else.
    remember when the first guests made excuses he sent his servant into the lanes and highways to get the poor and lame to come to the feast.
    you and i are not to discriminate who may come or where we must go to get them. you do your part and god will do the rest. it is disingenious to say we should start club churches to knock down the basic idea of the skate church. reach people,nothing more.
    john is a pharasee, you are smarter in my opinion than that. church is the people not the building or related man- made services. amen?
    lee

  6. Maybe the point is that entertainment isn’t the reason the church exists?

    And maybe that there’s a difference between the church and the individual Christian – including what each has been given to do?

  7. That’s my point exactly. We are trying to lure people to Christ through man-made means when we create entertainment and things to attract people….once you allow the “skate church” you open the doors for anything….

  8. Nathan, I am not suggesting we cant go to these kids and other places and preach Christ….I just think we need to be careful that we aren’t sending the wrong message and I am afraid that is just what is going on when the term “skate church” is used. I know men who travel around church to church showing off how strong they are and many come out to watch THEM. The focus is enetertainment…

  9. Lee, for starters, I could care less what Johnny thinks about me or anyone for that matter. I am not wishing to align with any man, including Johnny. If I disagree with you guys, you start this stuff about me siding with Johnny….sorry, but I happen to come to these conclusions without Johnny and even before I ever knew Johnny. I played in church bands for years and traveled to many denominations and I seen firsthand that entertainment was the focus, not God. This kind of rebellion is pushing me more to the way Johnny believes …

    ….when I talk about there being a pattern, which is Jesus….I sure as heck didn’t mean anything goes as if we are to do as we please……….as long as we call it “church”…

  10. …and must everything be a “Johnny issue”? If you truly have the answers then “answer the church of Christ”. Its one thing to come on here …try taking your arguments and questions to Jeff’s, Scotts, or Corey’s blogs…or is this just a place to feel comfortable with your beliefs? If you truly have the answers, please present them.

  11. I watched a local Pentecostal church on TV late last night….they were jigging and dancing to the music and doing so as part of “worship”….please do tell me if there are any guidelines or boundaries in worship….or can we just do as we please as long as we call it worship or church?

  12. “At Skate Church, riders worship with a rock band, and hear a message.”

    – Maybe they should have said, “at Skate church, we still can have the world and have God too”

    This honestly makes me sick Nathan…we are leading these kids down the wrong road and the bad thing is some dont even see it…we have lost all respect for God and are doing nothing but seeking to please ourselves…entertain me, thats what I need to find Jesus….sad, very sad !!

  13. Aw, shucks. I just wrote a nice reply and it disappeared into a blog black hole. I hate when that happens.

    I understand your POV, Randy. I really do. And I think you’d probably agree that all folks in all churches need to examine their hearts each time they worship – and it’s not restricted to “skate churches”.

    You can have sinful pride in the heart of the song leader (or whatever they call him) at the most conservative church of Christ church. Conversely, you can have a worship leader at a mega church praise band who has a heart strictly for God. It’s easy to try and compartmentalize these things, but at the end of the day we are responsible for our own inner workings – not the inner workings of others.

    But these guys are being Scriptural! What they are doing at the “skate church” – is not so different from the example we’re given by Paul when he was addressing the Athenians about their “unknown God” in Acts 17. He knew about their culture, and he shared the Gospel by helping them relate to it – by speaking their language, so to speak. That’s exactly what these folks are doing.

    And as I’ve already said, this church is living Paul’s example of “becoming all things to all people”. I applaud their initiative and creativity. They are tearing down barriers – not building new ones. What did the kid say in the article? Before this, he HATED the Lord’s church. That’s pretty strong language – and it says that the road he is going down is quite possibly not the wrong one… not any more.

  14. Removing stumbling blocks, Paul did it, Peter did it, why can’t the hardliners see that?!?!, feeding milk to grow them into maturity and then they will not need the other things but will be able to worship in a more acceptable way for the hardliners.

    The mistake the hardcore have is that they forget that they were once lost, or perhaps were always involved with church since a child and go not know what it is like to not believe there is a God. I know because I once did not believe, and I laughed at those who did as being foolish and afraid of dieing. Your bible study would do nothing to sway me because at that time it was a book of fairly tales, but people who did believe that book allowed for my hard heart and waited and witnessed with their lives and I believed and now I do the same for others!

    Not everyone has that chuch background and they can not or will not be able to transition into a “normal church” environment initially.

    If Paul had been near a skate park he would have preached the good news to those who would listen and built a church where he could. They met in homes, it halls in any place that would welcome them from what I see.

    The Godly want to sit on their God in a Box mountain top and stay there and make everyone climb a difficult road to them while they sit in judgment over them every step of the way placing stone after stone in their way, instead walk down the mountain, help the sick and dieing world and lead them to that mountain top!

    Jesus did that very thing by coming to earth as a baby! He could have come as a king and stayed on the mountain and ruled from there but he became nothing to give an example to us that it is not about our rights and our likes but reaching a sick and dieing world! Next to God becoming a baby, a skate park is a little stretch!

    The Good News is in a little while once those new converts gain strength you will be able to send the CoC to cherry pick some of them through fear!

    Think of it as a new feeding ground for you because you could never reach a truly unsaved person with your doctrine! Go preach the good news at that pub or at that bar and tell me how effective your “Lets study the bible” message is on the truly lost?

  15. Nathan, where are the boundaries in “worship” and what we call “church”? Am I saying its wrong for Christians to skateboard? NO! Am I saying we are using entertainment as a method to lure them ? YES!

    You have Jackie riding a Harley into the place where they are supposedly worshiping God, is that ok ?

    You have drama shows with various dance moves in church, is that ok?

    When you attend a church and they have this band or group performing, who do the congregation clap for after each song? God or the band?

    When someone sings a solo in church, who do the congregation clap for after the song? God or the one singing?

    Please show me where Paul ever made worship an entertainment event.

  16. “If Paul had been near a skate park he would have preached the good news to those who would listen and built a church where he could.”

    – WIL, nobody is saying that we shouldn’t share the gospel with people in skateboard parks. There are sinners down at the local bowling alley too, maybe we could make a “bowling church”…or maybe we could just go into the world and preach the gospel and allow it to work upon hearts without using methods of entertainment to attract people. Well guys I will check out of here for a while…got work I need to do. Corey, Scott, and Jeff would be happy to address some of the issues you guys have with the church of Christ. Each have various topics posted.

  17. Randy,

    You ask a good question. Where are the boundaries?

    But ultimately I think this is going to be a Romans 14 issue for us. I’m not going to try and force you to go to the skate church – I’m not going to try and force you to approve of the skate church. I can agree to disagree if you can – and on this issue (as we’ve seen before) I think we would have many disagreements. Even still, I don’t condemn you for having a different POV.

    I would, however, like to leave you with the verse I’ve been referencing in a bigger context. Consider the words of Paul…

    “Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.” (1 Cor. 9:19-23).

  18. I know the verse quite well. Do you think Paul intended us to use this verse to do as we please and call it worship. BTW, I think Corey addressed this verse in one of his post. If the goal is to “answer the church of Christ”, why not take this blog into their blogs and answer them. Corey addressed this topic as well as the Holy Kiss and many others posted on here. If your goal is truly to answer the conservative church of Christ, then visit their blogs and answer them or you could even visit their blogs and pull their post over to your blog and have us all address it on your blog.

  19. Again, I ask “where are the boundaries in church worship” does Rom 14 grant approval to do as I please?

    I really better get going…anyways, if the goal is to “answer the church of Christ” Corey has this posted on his blog as well as other topics we have talked about on here…link them over here and lets see how well they are answered…

  20. Maybe I will.

    But until then, Randy where do you see the boundaries?

    I do think that the verse gives us permission to be creative and innovative in the ways we share Christ. That includes hosting a “skate church” if that will help win some.

  21. If the focus is on entertainment, the boundaries have been crossed. Maybe a better questions is: what is worship?

    Nathan, if you really desire to do as this site claims “answering the church of Christ” then bring those with conservative views on here. You could easily link their post here for discussion.

  22. “On October 20, 2008 at 1:47 pm churchesofChrist Said:

    I know the verse quite well. Do you think Paul intended us to use this verse to do as we please and call it worship. BTW, I think Corey addressed this verse in one of his post. If the goal is to “answer the church of Christ”, why not take this blog into their blogs and answer them. Corey addressed this topic as well as the Holy Kiss and many others posted on here. If your goal is truly to answer the conservative church of Christ, then visit their blogs and answer them or you could even visit their blogs and pull their post over to your blog and have us all address it on your blog.”

    As soon as Corey will publicly denounce the tactics that JR is using or publicly support them then I will be happy to do so. As long as he attempts the quiet neutrality over this war that JR is waging he will be ignored!

    There is no place for Switzerland in this, support JR or denounce him do one or the other! Either you accept his ignoring of Authority in other organizations or you don’t, period! You can disagree with them but you still have to honor them as God’s authority period. Or you have to chose rebellion against authority as a valid choice for a believer even if it violates scripture!

    Pope Novatus is the first rebel who was installed as an anti-pope in Africa and a hero to the CoC cause it seems but still a rebel in God’s eyes! Martin Luther is a rebel, he may have been right about some scripture but rebellion is still rebellion.

    Jesus attitude towards the pharisees was simply chain of command issue, Jesus was above the pharisees in the chain of command, not below. They did not acknowledge that fact so don’t quote Christ’s examples there to support rebellion!

    David protected his life while honoring Saul who was as evil as they came towards the end! That is the example of dealing with authority who is abusing their power and God honored that choice by having Saul slain and David installed as King!

    Pick your side! Do you support God’s authority or do you oppose it if the conditions are not as you see them to be! Obedience to authority starts only when you disagree with that authority!

    And you enter into another body and ignore the authority in that body you are ignoring God. You are in fact in sin because all authority comes from God!

    Satan’s can do nothing more then God will allow him to do. Go read Job if you don’t believe me!

    This western mindset about authority is not God’s mindset towards it. At least that is what I read!

  23. randy i dont know you,
    although i had thought maybe a little.
    i am sad to hear your response.
    thanks to the lord for his mercy to us all
    wherever he finds us.

  24. i believe this is right. worth-ship and worship are the
    same. meaning that i may appreciate a beautiful voice
    or piano piece, i dont worship them.
    this is never a source of confusion for me.
    jesus is my lord,there is no other worthy of my praise.
    lee

  25. On October 20, 2008 at 3:26 pm Rick Said:
    Don’t you think sometimes we forget when it comes to worship that God is the audience and not man?

    – Rick, this is my point…we often forget when it comes to worship that God is the audience and not man? That is why we clap for “them” when they finish a song. I do want to add that God really isnt “the audience” as if we are performing some show for him…

    – Lee, just because we disagree doesnt mean we cant be friends. Just because you feel ok with a piano doesnt mean everyone does. I happen to like the heavy stuff myself…but should it boil down to what “we like” ??

  26. Wow, that is really great, Nathan!! As one who has been involved in youth ministry for many years, this is really awesome to hear! We are losing too many of our youth in DROVES-because all they see is hypocrisy and fakeness inside, and they get enough of that in the world-why would they want to walk in the “church” and also receive that?

    I definitely applaud people like this who are using iniative and creativity to bring the youth in and just be real with them-meeting them where they are, knowing their passions and being able to jump in where they are.

    Randy, I too was very surprised at your comments. Sometimes I don’t know where you stand, but I do agree that worship should never be about our entertainment or what we could do, but only that God is being glorified.

    At the same time, God has called us to be all things to all people, and to go to people where they are-and I love that is what these people are doing, because it is drawing these kids to Christ-who were otherwise repulsed or would never have thought about it.

    I think these kinds of conversations need to continue for us to ever be effective, for I strongly believe we have missed a lot of the point of who we are to be and do as the church.

  27. The Christian religion, I thought, was about meeting people where they are, bringing the message of hope to them, not asking them to conform in order to please. Your options are little and I am sure you would agree that its better then nothing. Meeting in a Church wearing my “sunday’s best” is not and was not my cup of tea either. A skaters church, as corny as it may sound, works for them.

  28. Great post Nathan! It’s great to see God working through this man to reach these kids. Gods work in action, how awesome to see!

    On October 20, 2008 at 9:34 am lee Said:
    the big problem is that most of us have forgotten what it was like to be lost. we some how reach a point where we believe that we were not that bad when jesus found us.

    Amen lee. Sometimes people can become so self-righteous and holier than thou that they forget why it is they came to Jesus in the first place, and the truth of that is because we all need Him.

    On October 20, 2008 at 12:34 pm walkinginlove Said:
    The Godly want to sit on their God in a Box mountain top and stay there and make everyone climb a difficult road to them while they sit in judgment over them every step of the way placing stone after stone in their way, instead walk down the mountain, help the sick and dieing world and lead them to that mountain top!

    Exactly walkininlove. Instead of living by works of the flesh and trying to hurt others with pride and arrogance we should be showing them love, mercy, and kindness as Jesus has shown to so many.

    On October 20, 2008 at 12:07pm answeringchurchofchrist Said:
    And I think you’d probably agree that all folks in all churches need to examine their hearts each time they worship – and it’s not restricted to “skate churches”.

    You can have sinful pride in the heart of the song leader (or whatever they call him) at the most conservative church of Christ church. Conversely, you can have a worship leader at a mega church praise band who has a heart strictly for God. It’s easy to try and compartmentalize these things, but at the end of the day we are responsible for our own inner workings – not the inner workings of others.

    I totally agree Nathan and to also say that God sees what is within our hearts and knows the love we have for Him.

  29. randy,
    i cant make you understand what john intends.
    although you have met him and have some sort of
    relationship, you dont believe he would harm you.
    yes its all about that pharasee. i feel there is little that he would not do to harm us all. he as much as said so in his show last night.
    because i am aware of his jeckel-hyde personalty
    i wont say things that he could take advantage of.
    because im not scared of him dosent mean i would subject anyone i know to him. you i think, believe he
    is doing gods will. i do not.
    i will continue to say so.
    i have had a discussion with cory on his site and never felt he was able to answer with authority.
    truth is truth……it always holds up.i am concerned for you.
    lee

  30. Kat, I stand with the teachings of the church of Christ. I may not agree totally with Johnny’s tactics, but far as their teaching goes, I am with them. I think we should sing only in worship, but I don’t use the same hermeneutic to reach my POV. I like Mark Hicks POV on this….pretty much it boils down to it being entertainment. Everyone thinks I should line up with everything they are lined up with and if not I am seen as on the left or on the right….

    JP. I am not saying we cant go “into the world and preach the gospel” …I am saying we are using methods of entertainment to attract people, rather than the gospel itself attracting them.

    You guys ask me where I stand….I told you. Now ask Nathan what he believes, because I sure don’t know. Please don’t take me the wrong way…its hard to be straight forward without being taken wrong.

  31. On October 20, 2008 at 8:16 pm lee Said:
    randy,

    i have had a discussion with cory on his site and never felt he was able to answer with authority.
    truth is truth……it always holds up.i am concerned for you.
    lee

    – I must have missed something. I thought I read every exchange between you guys. What point did you make that was overlooked or ognored ? I thought he addressed it all and made some valid points. Anyways, I will back off this site and let you guys do whatever youre doing…

  32. On October 20, 2008 at 8:16 pm lee Said:

    randy,
    i cant make you understand what john intends.

    But you better open your eyes!

    although you have met him and have some sort of
    relationship, you dont believe he would harm you.

    You better remember that you are not his brother!

    yes its all about that pharasee. i feel there is little that he would not do to harm us all.

    Limited only by Cesar’s law, as the Bible is variable depending on what he is trying to do! His Old Testament justification of spying etc. is totally out of context and was never done in the New Testament to other believers in the trinity God Head. Yet those unauthorized actions are ok with him because you and all of us here who do not follow the new law as he lays it out are no better then Satan worshipers! You better wrap your head around that fact and get it quick!

    he as much as said so in his show last night.
    because i am aware of his jeckel-hyde personalty

    And that nails it perfectly, as long as you are drinking the Kool-aide he is serving he will be nice and sweet to get it to take effect, oppose him and he takes off the sheep clothing and shows his real nature! And violates scripture or twists it as the need arises.

    i wont say things that he could take advantage of.
    because im not scared of him dosent mean i would subject anyone i know to him. you i think, believe he
    is doing gods will. i do not.

    Placing anyone in a position where he can tempt them to sin is wrong and I would agree with this totally Lee!

    i will continue to say so.
    i have had a discussion with cory on his site and never felt he was able to answer with authority.
    truth is truth……it always holds up.i am concerned for you.
    lee

    JR is blind to his sin against God in areas of authority and using scripture out of context because he is blinded by a bitter root judgment against his father and against false teachers.

    Do you really want to walk in blindness? If so then yoke yourself with him and suffer the results of that yoking!

  33. On October 21, 2008 at 5:42 am churchesofChrist Said:

    I am saying we are using methods of entertainment to attract people, rather than the gospel itself attracting them.

    Randy, I see nothing wrong with letting people know that God will meet them right where they are. And as Nathan pointed out there may be some people in the Church of Christ denomination that find their way of singing entertaining.

    On October 20, 2008 at 6:55 pm Katherine Said:
    We are losing too many of our youth in DROVES-because all they see is hypocrisy and fakeness inside, and they get enough of that in the world-why would they want to walk in the “church” and also receive that?

    I definitely applaud people like this who are using iniative and creativity to bring the youth in and just be real with them-meeting them where they are, knowing their passions and being able to jump in where they are.

    Amen Katherine. God has called us to be all things to all people. There are people who are struggling because they don’t know how much God really loves them. If anyone has been there like I have then they know exactly what these people are going through and understand that they feel they are completely worthless and think that God would have nothing of them. These people need to hear the gospel of Jesus and know how much He does love them.

    God knows our hearts. Some may go to a Church seeking entertainment, while others there are giving their praises to God and are there to hear the word of God. And someone who doesn’t know Jesus might come in and hear the gospel of Christ and choose to come to Him. I think that is well worth some entertainment.

  34. there may be some people in the Church of Christ denomination that find their way of singing entertaining.

    – Honesty, I dont know of anyone who thinks this way when singing.

  35. why do you gusy keep making everything a Johnny issue? I might disagree with some of his tactics, but that doesnt mean he is wrong on the issues you talk about. I happen to agree with him on many issues…most issues to be honest. Almost all church of Christ preachers tecah the same doctrines as Johnny, so why make this about Johnny

  36. walkinginlove wrote:

    “Think of it as a new feeding ground for you because you could never reach a truly unsaved person with your doctrine! Go preach the good news at that pub or at that bar and tell me how effective your “Lets study the bible” message is on the truly lost?”

    Let’s see. At the church I’m a part of, we have recovering drug addicts, alcoholics, single mothers, ex-cons, etc. We have had two baptisms in recent weeks of men who’ve walked in off the streets looking for a fresh start and wanting to hear about Christ. Indeed, the best evangelist (not preacher or minister – evangelizer) I’ve ever met is part of us; he’s an ex-con – and a registered sex offender.

    Don’t tell me the gospel we believe and speak doesn’t work. Don’t tell me it doesn’t appeal to those our society considers the lowest of the low. It’s the power of God to salvation for *all* who accept it.

    The problem isn’t the Lord or his message; the problem is that that message isn’t what a lot of people are looking for. They’re looking for a safe religion, one where they don’t have to change too much, one that entertains, one with a Lord who coincidentally demands nothing of them they weren’t willing to give in the first place. Certainly not one where they must submit their will to God’s.

  37. I agree entirely with you Jeff – and my concern is that we are offering these teens and others “easy religion”…just make up a church and call it skate church or whatever you want and attract them with entertainment. Why not talk to these kids about Jesus and “His Church” without using methods of entertainment to draw them – how about the word of God drawing them? Everything Jeff states is what we should be doing for the people in need – we should reach out to those in need, but can we not use the bible and preach Christ without having to trick them into attending church? Like I said, I could take a Bowling Alley and combine it with church and attract many people, but what would really be attracting them? Are you guys suggesting we use these cleaver methods to get them to hear the gospel and then keep them by using these cleaver man made methods? Even well know denominational preachers like John Macarthur has preached against this stuff and written about this very issue. Those claiming to be the church are moving further away from the bible and closer to their own agendas and ideas and I refuse to be part of that. Can we improve on the gospel with our supposed methods or should we allow the word of God to be planted in the hearts of those willing to hear and obey? How dare we take the very message that Peter preached and add our own spin as if God needs us to ADD to his plan a skate church or some other clever lure……to be blunt, this makes me sick!

  38. Jeff said:
    “Don’t tell me the gospel we believe and speak doesn’t work.”

    The only answer I have seen the local CoC give a man who was an atheist was “We need to do a bible study”

    That’s all!

  39. Tell me about stumbling blocks in the Bible, is there a Biblical principle for removing them or not?

    I read about Paul removing them from the gentiles and I read him having someone circumcised to allow them to reach the Jews when it was clearly against council teaching. By the letter of the commands the council gave out Paul was breaking them over food and circumcision in order to remove anything that would hinder the Gospel from being accepted. Does this principle no longer apply?

  40. cant see the forest for the trees.
    if you dont want to skate…..dont, i havnt in years.
    alllllllllll of this is beside the point.
    this makes you sick but saying that all baptists,
    presbyterians,pentacostals, ect are not saved…..
    going to hellllllllll. are false teachers,ravenous wolves,decievers that doesnt bother you and you are in favor of the coc destruction of us.you cant have it both ways.
    say on now brother…. speak plainly you cant be gray in this area.
    there are certainly men in all denominations including the coc who dont do the will of god.
    but you cant condemn everyone because of the few.
    i dont mind it being brought out for all to see.
    if they decieve and defraud the body it should be known. who would want it hidden?.
    you cant hide sin, it must be exposed, but for this
    man to condemn us all shows me where he truly comes from…. and it aint god.
    lee

  41. Off topic Biblical question:

    Romans 16:7Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow-prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

    How can they be of note among the Apostles? I thought only the 12 were Apostles? Just struck me as curious to see Paul speaking as though they are Apostles and yet I have seen where the Apostles are considered only the 12.

    Sorry but my curiosity is up on this.

  42. “The only answer I have seen the local CoC give a man who was an atheist was “We need to do a bible study””

    Can’t speak for them, since I have no idea where or who they are (or if your story is more than apocryphal).

    However, the local (nationally-known) Evangelical church here has been running radio messages (“A Moment of Hope”) every weekday for years. In all that time I’ve heard it, you know what I’ve never heard mentioned? Not even once?

    Jesus.

    Apparently, they believe in getting rid of stumbling blocks as well. Unfortunate that the message of the Lord is one to so many…

  43. this is what I pulled from one site that tell how to lure them in

    1. Address specific needs. Like marriages, raising families, money, fulfillment, etc.

    2. Entertain people.

    3. Make children a priority. Granger is well known for their incredible children’s ministry. Sponge Bob would be jealous.

    4. Raise the energy level of worship.

    5. Give people hope. Grace, not condemnation.

  44. Here is another article:

    Want to find Jesus? Just grab a sniper rifle and some plasma grenades: all over the country, churches are using the recently-released Halo 3 to draw new recruits. And they’re drawing a lot of flack for it (no pun intended).

    The debate essentially boils down to whether you think it’s okay to lure kids into church.

    “If you want to connect with young teenage boys and drag them into church, free alcohol and pornographic movies would do it,” James Tonkowich, president of the Institute on Religion and Democracy, told the Times. “My own take is you can do better than that.”

  45. This is from John Macarthur ( GRACE TO YOU MINITRIES )
    A recent article in The Wall Street Journal described one well-known church’s bid “to perk up attendance at Sunday evening services.” The church “staged a wrestling match, featuring church employees. To train for the event, 10 game employees got lessons from Tugboat Taylor, a former professional wrestler, in pulling hair, kicking shins and tossing bodies around without doing real harm.” No harm to the staff members, perhaps, but what is the effect of such an exhibition on the church’s message? Is not the gospel itself clouded and badly caricatured by such tomfoolery?

    That wrestling match is not an obscure example from some eccentric church on the fringe. It took place in the Sunday evening service of one of America’s five largest churches. Similar examples could be drawn from many of the leading churches supposedly in the mainstream of evangelical orthodoxy.

    Some will maintain that if biblical principles are presented, the medium doesn’t matter. That is nonsense. If an “entertaining medium” is the key to winning people, why not go all out? Why not have a real carnival? A tattooed acrobat on a high wire could juggle chain saws and shout Bible verses while a trained dog balanced on his head. That would draw a crowd. And the content of the message would be thoroughly biblical. It’s a bizarre scenario, but one that illustrates how the medium can cheapen and corrupt the message.

    And sadly, it’s not terribly different from what is actually being done in some churches. There seems no limit to what modern church leaders will do to entice people who aren’t interested in worship and preaching.

    One noted pastor of a very large church, for example, boasts about the time his staff staged a pie fight during a Sunday morning church service.
    Just how far will the church go to compete with Hollywood? A large church in the southwestern United States has installed a half-million-dollar special-effects system that can produce smoke, fire, sparks, and laser lights in the auditorium. The church sent staff members to study live special effects at Bally’s Casino in Las Vegas. The pastor ended one service by ascending to “heaven” via invisible wires that drew him up out of sight while the choir and orchestra added a musical accompaniment to the smoke, fire, and light show. It was just a typical Sunday show for that pastor: “He packs his church with such special effects as. . . cranking up a chain saw and toppling a tree to make a point. . . the biggest Fourth of July fireworks display in town and a Christmas service with a rented elephant, kangaroo and zebra. The Christmas show features 100 clowns with gifts for the congregation’s children.”
    There’s no denying that these antics seem to work—that is, they draw a crowd. Many churches that have experimented with such methods report growing attendance figures. And a handful of megachurches—those that can afford first-class productions, effects, and facilities—have been able to stimulate enormous numerical growth. Some of them fill huge auditoriums with thousands of people several times every week.

    A few of these megachurches resemble elegant country clubs or resort hotels. They feature impressive facilities with bowling lanes, movie theaters, health spas, restaurants, ballrooms, roller-skating rinks, and state-of-the-art multi-court gymnasiums. Recreation and entertainment are inevitably the most visible aspects of these enterprises. Such churches have become meccas for students of church growth.
    Now evangelicals everywhere are frantically seeking new techniques and new forms of entertainment to attract people. Whether a method is biblical or not scarcely matters to the average church leader today. Does it work? That is the new test of legitimacy. And so raw pragmatism has become the driving philosophy in much of the professing church.

    But when pragmatism becomes a guiding philosophy of life or ministry, it inevitably clashes with Scripture. Spiritual and biblical truth cannot be determined by what works and what doesn’t. We know from Scripture, for example, that the gospel does not usually produce a positive response (1 Cor. 1:22-23; 2:14). On the other hand, Satanic lies and deception often are quite effective (Matt. 24:23-24; 2 Cor. 4:3-4). Majority reaction is no test of validity (cf. Matt. 7:13-14), and prosperity is no measure of truthfulness (cf. Job 12:6). Pragmatism as a guiding philosophy of ministry is inherently flawed.
    Nevertheless, an overpowering surge of ardent pragmatism is sweeping through evangelicalism. Methodology has replaced theology as the main issue many church leaders are concerned with. Pastors are turning to books on marketing methods in search of new techniques to help churches grow. Many seminaries have shifted their pastoral training emphasis from Bible curriculum and theology to matters of style and technique.

    Perhaps most telling is the growing number of churches that now feature drama and entertainment instead of traditional services where God’s Word is proclaimed. The new pragmatism sees preaching as passé. Plainly declaring truth is deemed too offensive and utterly ineffective. We’re now told we can get better results by first amusing people and thus wooing them into the fold. Once they feel comfortable, they’ll be ready to receive biblical truth in small, diluted doses.

    And so church buildings are being constructed like theaters; instead of a pulpit, the focus is a stage. Churches are hiring full-time media specialists, programming consultants, stage directors, drama coaches, special-effects experts, and choreographers.
    What’s wrong with that? For one thing, the church has no business marketing its ministry as an alternative to secular amusements (2 Thess. 3:3-4). That corrupts and cheapens the church’s real mission. We are not carnival barkers, used car salesmen, or K-Tel pitchmen. We are Christ’s ambassadors (2 Cor. 5:20). Knowing the terror of the Lord (v. 11), motivated by the love of Christ (v. 14), utterly made new by Him (v. 17), we implore sinners to be reconciled to God (v. 20).

    Moreover, instead of confronting the world with the truth of Christ, the market-driven megachurches are enthusiastically promoting the worst trends of secular culture. Feeding people’s appetite for entertainment only exacerbates the problems of mindless emotion, apathy, and materialism. Quite frankly, it is difficult to conceive of a ministry philosophy more contradictory to the pattern our Lord gave us.

    Proclaiming the gospel message of redemption for sinners, and expositing the Word for saints should be the heart of every church’s ministry. If the world looks at the church and sees an entertainment center, we’re sending the wrong message. If Christians view the church as an amusement parlor, the church will die.

    Nothing in Scripture indicates the church should lure people to Christ by presenting Christianity as an attractive option. Nothing about the gospel is optional: “There is salvation in no one else. . . there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12). Nor is the gospel meant to be attractive in the sense of modern marketing. To most, the message of the gospel is “a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense” (Rom. 9:33; 1 Pet. 2:8). There’s no way to “market” that. The church must realize that its mission has never been public relations or sales; we are called to live holy lives and declare God’s truth—lovingly but uncompromisingly—to an unbelieving world.

  46. Romans 16:7Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow-prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

    How can they be of note among the Apostles? I thought only the 12 were Apostles? Just struck me as curious to see Paul speaking as though they are Apostles and yet I have seen where the Apostles are considered only the 12.

    To say that they were “of note” among the apostles suggests that they were held in high esteem by the apostles, not that they were numbered among them.

    That they are called “fellow prisoners” suggests that they had also suffered much like Paul with imprisonment for the cause of Christ, which is possibly why they had come to be “of note” of the apostles.

    While the word “apostle” means one who is sent forth (and in that sense Barnabus is referred to as an apostle), scholars note that Paul only uses it in the strictest sense – meaning that he only calls individuals apostles who were sent forth by the Lord Himself, not one sent forth by a congregation.

  47. Quantity over quality.. a terribly destructive attempt at building a church. The result: a multitude of church drop-outs who have no positive lasting faith.

  48. Ric, I am concerned that we are opening up doors more and more for “recreation and entertainment” as tools to draw in the masses. As John M. points out – if we can have a little entertainment, why not go all out to attract the masses? And, many are following these paths and many will attend churches for the wrong reasons. As you noted, this type of faith is often short lived….

    We treat the gospel like its something we can build upon, and that is a lack of faith. Either we believe God can save by preaching Christ, or we don’t…we don’t need clever methods and entertainment to ADD to the gospel in hopes that we attract people….sorry, but that’s not trusting God, but trusting in self…

  49. I can see how many of you have misgivings about this. I honestly do. However, regardless of my personal feelings on what “proper” worship assemblies consist of (and the Bible gives very little about this), one thing keeps popping up:

    Is it better for the teenagers to spend their Tuesday nights at:

    A. skate church?
    B. drinking beer and smoking pot in their buddies garage?

    It is also important to keep in mind that most of these kids could care less what our opinions on personal scripture interpretation consist of.

  50. Is it better for the teenagers to spend their Tuesday nights at:

    A. skate church?
    B. drinking beer and smoking pot in their buddies garage?

    Why is it that these are the only two options? This reminds of a class I was teaching on a Sunday morning when the issue of going swimming in modern bathing suits (in the company of the opposite sex) came up. I am against that (surprise, surprise). One girl nearly shouted, “then when are you supposed to swim?!” In her mind there were only two options:

    1. Swim, in a bathing suit/bikini, around boys/men
    2. Die (apparently)

    Just because she wouldn’t consider the other options doesn’t mean they don’t exist. The same is true here. A good way to reach these kids would be for a Christian who has a skating talent to go and speak to them, showing them that people like them have a place in the Lord’s kingdom. A poor way to reach them is to alter worship to the point of entertainment, showing them that you can do whatever you like and God will just have to accept it.

  51. Corey,

    Is this actually worship if it occurs on Tuesday night? Wouldn’t you consider it more of a club or Bible study by definition?

    “the issue of going swimming in modern bathing suits”

    This illustrates the root of the problem again. There was a time once where non-modern bathing suits were considered immodest as well. Who makes these decisions? If someone has lust in their hearts, they do not need access to modern bathing suits.

  52. DMH, that’s a false dichotomy.

    The question is if creating entertainment (particularly as the bait in a bait-and-switch) is the work of the church.

  53. On October 21, 2008 at 1:38 pm DMH Said:
    Corey,

    Is this actually worship if it occurs on Tuesday night? Wouldn’t you consider it more of a club or Bible study by definition?

    “the issue of going swimming in modern bathing suits”

    – I knew you opened up a can of worms when your typed this…oh well let the worms out…I agree…and its sin for a man or woman to sport thier bodies around half naked…least that is how I understand this when reading the bible

  54. the above was directed to Corey for opening up the can of worms :)….but you speak the truth

  55. Corey since you are in the mood to answer questions do you approve of JR’s use of spies in other bodies of believers?

    Or are you going to continue to ignore my question in this matter? If so then answer why you are ignoring it!

    As for the matter of Tuesday nights skating we can’t have people hearing the word of God in an inappropriate manor it would be better they went to hell not hearing it then anyone risk their lives! After all the goal is to avoid hell, not tell anyone the good news in a way they might receive it. Paul’s message about being a Greek to the Greek is all wrong! How dare he call those pagan’s spiritual people to open a dialog about Jesus Christ!

    I am sitting here reading a blog version of the good Samaritan being written! Thanks for showing me that Jesus actually knew what he was talking about when dealing with religious people more concerned with themselves and their fate then others!

    We can’t touch a skate on a Tuesday, we might be unclean and need to wash our selves, who needs that, let them burn as long as we are justified by our appearance!

    James 2:13because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!

    I believe in mercy over Judgment, it was the message of the cross!

  56. “DMH, that’s a false dichotomy.”

    – sorry, did not intend to present it as a all or nothing type situation. However, I do think it is the reality of the situation.

    “The question is if creating entertainment (particularly as the bait in a bait-and-switch) is the work of the church.”

    – If this is case, then you must determine what exactly constitutes entertainment, which I assure you will be a slippery slope. Is VBS? Are church luncheons? Youth activities? How far are you willing to push this?

    “and its sin for a man or woman to sport their bodies around half naked…least that is how I understand this when reading the bible”

    – Whose modesty code do we use to measure this with? 21st century Southern Virginia? The south of France? 16th century England? 1st century Palestine?

    Honestly, I am not too sure.

  57. Is this actually worship if it occurs on Tuesday night? Wouldn’t you consider it more of a club or Bible study by definition?

    The problem is that this is being presented as “church” and “worship”. The people who organized this, and those who participate in it, definitely consider it the “worship” of their “church”. I agree with Jeff’s statement about creating entertainment as part of the work of the church. You neglected to tell me if these kids have other options besides “skate church” or drugs & debauchery.

    This illustrates the root of the problem again. There was a time once where non-modern bathing suits were considered immodest as well. Who makes these decisions? If someone has lust in their hearts, they do not need access to modern bathing suits.

    The social standards don’t matter – what God says about modesty is unchanging.

    As to walkinginlove’s statements – how interesting that we aren’t supposed to comment on how these people are altering the work and worship of the church, but you want me to condemn Johnny. I will not. I wouldn’t want to put a stumbling block in front of him! Isn’t that what you’d say about anyone other than Johnny?

    I believe in mercy over Judgment

    The things you post here indicate otherwise.

  58. sorry, did not intend to present it as a all or nothing type situation. However, I do think it is the reality of the situation.

    Really? There’s no possibility other than church-sponsored entertainment or the kids getting wasted? None?

    If this is case, then you must determine what exactly constitutes entertainment

    No, I simply have to determine what God through the Bible says the work of the church is.

  59. “The problem is that this is being presented as “church” and “worship”.”

    – Why do you care what they call it? Is it wrong simply based on your opinion of proper naming and organization? It seems to just go back to the same principle, that being it is automatically wrong because it is conform to how “my” church operates.

    “The social standards don’t matter – what God says about modesty is unchanging.”

    – I agree completely. What does God have to say on this issue?

    BTW, Corey I always enjoy speaking with you. It has been awhile. I doubt we agree on most subjects, but I respect your viewpoints and demeanor.

  60. Why do you care what they call it? Is it wrong simply based on your opinion of proper naming and organization? It seems to just go back to the same principle, that being it is automatically wrong because it is conform to how “my” church operates.

    I care because those young people are being told that entertainment-style worship is pleasing to God when nothing of the kind is found in the New Testament. It isn’t wrong because it doesn’t conform to how “my” church operates, it is wrong because it is nothing like the church the Lord purchased with His blood. This doesn’t mean that these young people are to be ignored – to the contrary, they are valuable souls. My point is that we are to come to God on His terms, not ours.

    I agree completely. What does God have to say on this issue?

    The Bible has a great deal to say on modesty. To begin with, an exposed thigh is called “nakedness” by the Lord (Exodus 28:42). This is not covered by most modern bathing suits (at least for women). 1 Timothy 2:9 shows us that modest apparel is not clothing (or lack thereof) that draws attention to one’s self. Basically putting everything you’ve got on display (as most modern bathing suits do – for men & women) is not modest. There are other passages that could be posted, but I only have so much time for this.

    BTW, Corey I always enjoy speaking with you. It has been awhile. I doubt we agree on most subjects, but I respect your viewpoints and demeanor.

    Ditto.

  61. Corey, it’s never judgmental to judge those who you judge to be judgmental.

    That could be the motto of this blog. That, or:

    There is no absolute truth except for the absolute truth that there is no absolute truth.

  62. On August 15, 2008 at 1:39 pm coreydavis Said:

    This is all basically rehashing what we’ve discussed on my blog, but I’ll try again.

    The above scriptures talk about his spirit and I consider that to be the Holy Spirit shows that we live in him and he in us, Acts 10:44 shows the Holy Spirit falling on and them receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit. Since the Holy Spirit shows that they are in him and he in them, how does that apply to Acts 2:38’s message to us?

    You say that Acts 10:44 shows them receiving the “gift” of the Holy Spirit. I don’t believe this to be true when balanced with all of scripture. They received the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I would hope you would acknowledge that the apostles had the Holy Spirit prior to Acts 2. Assuming you do, hopefully you can see that the baptism of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost was different – it served as a sign to the Jews there and gave them miraculous powers that Jesus had promised them.

    In that sense only Cornelius did have this happen in reverse order – he first received the baptism of the Holy Spirit (like the apostles, as a sign). He would have received the gift (the indwelling of, sealing of salvation) the Holy Spirit when he submitted to the command to be immersed in water, just as the Jews in Acts 2 were commanded to do.

    I would not agree that they were sealed with the Holy Spirit upon being baptized in the Spirit. The Holy Spirit was not “in” them in the sense that He is in Christians then and now when they receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

    As I’ve pointed out before, there is no other case like this in the New Testament. If we are to seek the harmony of the scriptures we would have to see this as a unique case. Once we acknowledge that it was unique, we must ask “why”? The answer seems obvious based upon info in chapters 10 and 11 – it showed the Jewish Christians that the Gentiles were to be accepted into the church as brethren.

    sorry to post so much content but tell me if im wrong corey…..johnny dosent believe we recieve the gift of the holy ghost today except as he deals with christians through the word.it was only for that time. so you two differ there.
    and secondly how can one baptize a vessel “in” something without filling the vessel also?
    thanks lee

  63. Cory said:
    In that sense only Cornelius did have this happen in reverse order – he first received the baptism of the Holy Spirit (like the apostles, as a sign). He would have received the gift (the indwelling of, sealing of salvation) the Holy Spirit when he submitted to the command to be immersed in water, just as the Jews in Acts 2 were commanded to do.

    Sorry but your bias makes you miss one key point!

    Cornelius was already saved, it was the Jews that needed convincing! Cornelius prayers were heard by God, a sinners prayers can’t be heard can they?? God needed to keep Peter alive and prove to the Jewish believers that the Gentiles were welcome at the table now in full equality. Peter because he was a practicing Jew assumed that Cornelius was saved on that day. The Angel did not say salvation to Cornelius show me in Acts 10 where he says it, he does not and we both know that but to uphold our glorious water purification rights we have to assume that the Angel was wrong and Cornelius was wrong and the men who told Peter were also wrong and that only Peter really knew what the Angel was saying!

    How tell me how that is ? The one who heard the story from someone who heard the story and knew more then the one telling it or the Angel who told him?!?!?!

    Sorry to all of you but Cornelius was already “saved” because God was answering his prayers and seeing his acts of Mercy and was working things to convince the Jewish believers to accept God’s standards!

    Peter made a mistake alright it was assuming that salvation had come that day, it had already come! Peter’s preaching shows they already knew about Jesus!

    You can’t have the gift without the giver being there also!

    Acts 9:17Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul’s eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, 19and after taking some food, he regained his strength.

    Paul received the Holy Spirit before Baptism through the laying of Hands on him! It does not show when he received the gifts. But the giver was there when the scales fell away through the laying of hands by a disciple and not an Apostle just FYI!

  64. People are going to Hell because we have to have harmony of the scriptures aka God in a Box so we can sleep well at night knowing we are saved and in good standing.

    Mercy, try Mercy for a change!

  65. “No, I simply have to determine what God through the Bible says the work of the church is.”

    – Does this mean you are not willing to examine the possible entertainment going on at your own church?

    “Corey, it’s never judgmental to judge those who you judge to be judgmental.”

    – I apologize if I came across as such. I simply disagree with you.

    “Question: were the aprons they made enough?”
    -I think that is a Good question. Enough for who? For God? For Adam?

  66. Does this mean you are not willing to examine the possible entertainment going on at your own church?

    Utter non sequitur.

    It means I realize:

    1) We need to determine what God says and conform ourselves to it rather than try to justify what we do.

    2) You have no idea what does or doesn’t happen at the church I’m a part of.

    3) You’re deflecting.

  67. Jeff does your church pratice any form of stumbling block removal as Paul used at times to advance the cause of christ? IF not why not?

  68. Good discussion, all.

    Jeff, I take issue with your comment:

    “We need to determine what God says and conform ourselves to it rather than try to justify what we do.”

    If by that comment you seek to justify opposing things like the “skate church”.

    How is the church you attend really like the church of the New Testament? Do you greet one another with a holy kiss, or was that just a cultural mandate? Do the women in the church you attend cover their heads, or was that just a cultural mandate? If the members of the 1st century church visited the church you attend, how much would they recognize? 100%? 75%? 50%? Would they understand the language you speak? How much of anything you do would make sense to them?

    And to Randy and others, I don’t advocate an “anything goes” mentality when it comes to worship. I’m always amazed when people take support of innovation and creativity and take it to the hyperbolic extreme of jello wrestling and free porn (or the like). Which leads me to the question – is it a sin to be entertained by worship? If so, preachers of any stripe better stop making jokes or speaking with passionate inflections, or doing anything but reading the most boring stories out of Scripture they can find (each week nothing but the “begat” passages?).

    That’s the hyperbolic extreme going the other way, isn’t it?

    But the question still stands – is it a sin to be entertained (or to entertain) in worship? If you say the answer is “yes”, then I would appreciate a BCV reference, please.

  69. What people are trying to do… is give the unchurched what they want. Hundred of churches have done this, actually surveying unbelievers to learn what it would take to get them to attend.

    Nathan, this kind of thinking badly skews the mission of the church. The Great Commission is not a marketing manifesto. Evangelism does not require salesmen. It is the Word of God, not any earthly enticement, that plants the seed for the new birth (1 Peter 1:23). We gain nothing but God’s displeasure if we seek to remove the offense of the cross.

    It is clearly unbiblical to elevate entertainment over biblical preaching and worship in the church service. Some, I hope not you Nathan, actually believe that their salesmanship can bring people into the kingdom more effectively than a sovereign God—a philosophy that has opened the door to worldliness in the church and its disturbing to me that you guys on here do not see this.

    I am not implying that we can’t go to skate parks or other avenues of entertainment. I happen to love weight lifting, and I would have no problem talking about the gospel at the gym, but I wouldn’t dare use weight lifting as some tool or marketing manifesto.

  70. We don’t need clever approaches to get people saved (1 Cor. 1:21). We simply need to get back to preaching the truth and planting the seed. If we’re faithful in that, the soil God has prepared will bear fruit.
    I do believe we can be innovative and creative in how we present the gospel, but we have to be careful to harmonize our methods with the profound spiritual truth we are trying to convey. It is too easy to trivialize the sacred message.
    But what is actually being done in some churches – Punk-rockers, ventriloquists’ dummies, clowns, magicians, and show-business celebrities have taken the place of the preacher–and they are depreciating the gospel.
    Hebrews 10:24-25: “Let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together.”
    Acts 2:42: “They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.” Note that the early church’s priorities clearly were to worship God and to edify the brethren. The church came together for worship and edification; it scattered to evangelize the world, not entertain it.

  71. Randy, a couple of things.

    First, you never answered my question earlier – is it a sin to entertain in worship – or to be entertained? If you think so, then what BCV do you use to back up that assertion?

    Second, I’d challenge you to look at Jesus in the context of this discussion. He was a storyteller – an entertainer, you might say. He used interesting and exciting stories about everyday life to entice people and teach them God’s Truth. Why else would people have flocked to hear him speak if His words didn’t have some 1st Century entertainment value (and I ask that with the full realization that “entertainment” during that time was vastly different than entertainment in our day)?

    I’m not suggesting we water down God’s Truth in our desire to attract people. Jesus didn’t – although he disguised it often enough (the parables). But, like Jesus, we should use every weapon in our arsenal to reach people with the Good News. We should use all our creativity and energies to bring people to a place where they are willing to hear it. Even then many will reject it, but at least they’ll have been given an opportunity to hear.

  72. Since there are no Apostles left we are no longer going to try and reach the lost but wait for them to come to us??????

  73. Jeff, I take issue with your comment:

    “We need to determine what God says and conform ourselves to it rather than try to justify what we do.”

    I’m saddened, but not surprised.

    “And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.” (Romans 12:2)

    As for the rest of your post, more deflection from the subject at hand. Plus, it’s all been answered before. Repeatedly. Has anything changed that would make you more receptive to those answers now than you were in the past?

  74. Jeff does your church pratice any form of stumbling block removal as Paul used at times to advance the cause of christ?

    Does the church you’re a part of make Jesus and His will the center of what it does? Or does it obscure Him in its so-called “outreach” programs?

  75. Nathan, I think Jeff best answered this:

    “As for the rest of your post, more deflection from the subject at hand. Plus, it’s all been answered before. Repeatedly.”

    And, Jesus was not an entertainer!

    you ask: “Why else would people have flocked to hear him speak if His words didn’t have some 1st Century entertainment value (and I ask that with the full realization that “entertainment” during that time was vastly different than entertainment in our day)?”

    I guess him healing people was part of the show too, seeing it attracted people…

  76. And the disciples came, and said unto Him, Why speakest Thou unto them in parables? ( they didn’t ask, why Ye entertain me with parables )
    A great multitude had gathered to listen to Jesus Christ teach. But He was speaking in parables and the disciples wanted to know why.

    He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

    This is talking about understanding the deeper truths of the Bible.

    Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. This is a far cry from Skate church – you’re comparing oranges to apples.

  77. “2) You have no idea what does or doesn’t happen at the church I’m a part of.’

    – Well, of course I don’t. That is why I am asking. (and I am the one deflecting and using improper logic?)

    – Your church has no form of outside activties to speak of besides “proper” Sunday morning worship services? If it does what do you do and what purpose does it serve?

  78. On October 22, 2008 at 8:12 am answeringchurchofchrist Said:

    First, you never answered my question earlier – is it a sin to entertain in worship – or to be entertained? If you think so, then what BCV do you use to back up that assertion?

    Well Randy, BCV.

  79. sorry to post so much content but tell me if im wrong corey…..johnny dosent believe we recieve the gift of the holy ghost today except as he deals with christians through the word.it was only for that time. so you two differ there.
    and secondly how can one baptize a vessel “in” something without filling the vessel also?
    thanks lee

    Lee,

    I would say that Johnny’s stance is more accurately described as he believes the Holy Spirit indwells the Christian through His word alone. My stance is that He indwells the Christian bodily and through the word. I do not believe that the bodily indwelling gives miraculous powers, nor do I believe that He would lead the Christian beyond what He has already delivered through the word.

    Two great men in the churches of Christ, Guy N. Woods & Gus Nichols held the different views that Johnny & I hold. Brother Nichols said (I’m paraphrasing), “You must admit that the Holy Spirit indwells the Christian because the Bible says He does. If you both agree that the indwelling doesn’t provide miraculous gifts, and you agree that the indwelling doesn’t lead you beyond that given through the word, then no lines of fellowship should be drawn”. I agree with that statement, and I know of no one within the churches of Christ that has drawn lines of fellowship when agreement is reached upon those three points (although I don’t deny that it may have happened somewhere).

    This is a topic that I continue to study, and I must say that the position held by Johnny does have many strong points. I must say that I don’t know if Johnny actually holds the position you say he does and I’ve simply taken your word for it here.

    The Angel did not say salvation to Cornelius show me in Acts 10 where he says it, he does not and we both know that but to uphold our glorious water purification rights we have to assume that the Angel was wrong and Cornelius was wrong and the men who told Peter were also wrong and that only Peter really knew what the Angel was saying!

    Does the Bible end at Acts 10? Let me point out something in Acts 11 that is key:

    4But Peter rehearsed the matter from the beginning, and expounded it by order unto them, saying,

    This tells us that Peter recounts the story of Acts 10 to the Jewish Christians in sequence. Peter’s recounting of the events is IN ORDER and has additional information not given in chapter 10. I know you hate that, but it is true. You think Peter lied which shows how far you will go to advance false doctrine. The information from Acts 11 lets us know that:

    1. Peter was told that he was to tell Cornelius “words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved” (verse 14)
    2. The Holy Spirit fell on them before he even delivered those words (verse 15)

    They didn’t hear the words by which they would be saved until after the Holy Spirit fell, which means they weren’t saved until they heard and obeyed those words.

    You keep talking about “water purification rites”. Please show me the NT verse where Christian baptism is referred to as a “water purification rite” like the Jews practiced.

  80. On October 22, 2008 at 8:30 am Jeff Said:

    Jeff does your church practice any form of stumbling block removal as Paul used at times to advance the cause of Christ?

    Does the church you’re a part of make Jesus and His will the center of what it does? Or does it obscure Him in its so-called “outreach” programs?

    Thanks you answered my question I’ll take that as a no, religion is a dangerous sickness, it also can obscure the message of the cross! I’m glad you are safe in your tower of authorized worship where you are no longer in danger of damnation. You have saved your life, but then again doesn’t the bible say something about that type of thinking?

    Actually I believe the people who attend are taught to be the outreach to others. They do not feed those they are seeking to reach hard line meals but milk to bring them along till they are strong enough to handle stronger spiritual food. But then again they aren’t focused on saving their own life but losing it in acts of mercy towards others to bring them to a knowledge of the cross.

  81. Truth, back up and see how many scriptures Nathan has presented to defend his position on this matter…then read each post carefully. You must have missed some things or you may just want to hold to your POV without any BCV to support it….he calls me out as if I have presented any scriptures, when its Nathan who hasn’t presented any scriptures to support “entertainment as a tool to win the lost” This is what we are talking about truth….now, since Nathan didn’t prove entertainment can be a marketing tool, maybe you will provide BCV…………waiting…

  82. On October 22, 2008 at 9:02 am coreydavis Said:

    Does the Bible end at Acts 10? Let me point out something in Acts 11 that is key:

    4But Peter rehearsed the matter from the beginning, and expounded it by order unto them, saying,
    This tells us that Peter recounts the story of Acts 10 to the Jewish Christians in sequence.

    It doesn’t matter how Peter tells the story he tells it wrong, period and Acts 10 does not back up his recounting of the story period, it is not there it is an example of how his bias based on his knowledge of Jewish pratices and the example of John’s baptism was used to construct Acts 2:38’s answer. But it is not there and it will not be there forever, you can go along with Peter’s bias and believe or you can see the truth, that’s your choice Corey. Peter was allowed to make mistakes and still lead, his actions where Paul calls him down proves that, so reading this and assuming that Peter’s point by point retelling is 100% accurate is a mistake because Acts 10 does not show this as an accurate retelling of the events, it does show Peter’s bias clearly though.

    Peter’s recounting of the events is IN ORDER and has additional information not given in chapter 10.

    Where I come from we call that embellishment. Peter fears the circumcised group, Paul clearly points that out. Acts 21 was an example of them trying to appease the Jews, it was all a construct to cover for and protect Paul.

    I know you hate that, but it is true. You think Peter lied which shows how far you will go to advance false doctrine. The information from Acts 11 lets us know that:

    He shows his bias, I firmly believe that Peter thought what he was retelling was true, in his mind it was a salvation moment, but in fact Cornelius was already walking in relationship with God and Christ. Calling the Angel Lord shows me that Christ was the one talking to Cornelius.

    1. Peter was told that he was to tell Cornelius “words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved” (verse 14)

    Verse 13He told us how he had seen an angel appear in his house and say, ‘Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter. 14He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.’

    Her is retelling what Cornelius told him not what an Angel gave to Peter in private! Peter was only told by Cornelius he added to that message Cornelius gave him, otherwise Cornelius would have used those words and he does not!!!!!!

    2. The Holy Spirit fell on them before he even delivered those words (verse 15)

    They didn’t hear the words by which they would be saved until after the Holy Spirit fell, which means they weren’t saved until they heard and obeyed those words.

    Acts 10:36You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, telling the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all.

    They already knew the message!

    The Holy Spirit falling on them was to save Peter and the Gentiles from being killed by the Jewish believers who were still zealous for the law! Peter’s retelling was to defend himself against their concerns, his bias was shown in his retelling of the story.

    You keep talking about “water purification rites”. Please show me the NT verse where Christian baptism is referred to as a “water purification rite” like the Jews practiced.

    To start the atonement process the Jewish Priest had to wash before the event. To not see the symbolism of this act in Old Testament pratices is like saying that modern autos have nothing to do with a Model T Ford. Lav. 16 Arron has to wash before dressing to do the sacrifice and had to wash again when he left. The practice is rooted in this Atonement practice, how you do not see the connection I do not understand.

    None the less Peter was not inspired by a secret knowledge given to him he was simply retelling that Cornelius said and was allowing his bias of the events to show, it is as clear as a bell to those who are not blinded by the same bias.

  83. Even if its rooted in washings of the OT – it was a command given by Peter to those who were pricked in their hearts – asking Peter “what shall we do”? Their “faith alone” didn’t save them, seeing they ask “what shall we do” and Pater answering them proves faith alone” didn’t save them. .If they failed to “repent” would they have been forgiven? Peter tied baptism to repentance with the word “AND” …meaning they had to not only repent, but had to be baptized in water as well. Call it what you want, but its clear Peter tied them both together as something “they must do”.

  84. How is it that God who was so strict on Moses when he made a mistake not following God exactly is not holding the Apostles accountable at the same level?

    Mathew 28:19 is different then Acts 2:38, Paul is allowed to violate Matthew’s process for regaining a brother when dealing with Peter, Paul and Barnabas are allowed to argue and hold that grudge enough to part ways over it.

    There seems to be a difference! Or you can ignore the differences and declare it a harmony and live in fantasy land, or you can examine the differences and see the difference in how God is dealing with them.

  85. On October 22, 2008 at 9:49 am churchesofChrist Said:

    Even if its rooted in washings of the OT – it was a command given by Peter to those who were pricked in their hearts – asking Peter “what shall we do”? Their “faith alone” didn’t save them, seeing they ask “what shall we do” and Pater answering them proves faith alone” didn’t save them. .If they failed to “repent” would they have been forgiven? Peter tied baptism to repentance with the word “AND” …meaning they had to not only repent, but had to be baptized in water as well. Call it what you want, but its clear Peter tied them both together as something “they must do”.

    Did you ever consider that some of those people were actually there and chanting crucify him?

    Verse 23This man was handed over to you by God’s set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross

    They had helped kill Jesus! Perhaps that was the sin they were dealing with!

  86. On October 22, 2008 at 9:18 am churchesofChrist Said:
    prove entertainment can be a marketing tool, maybe you will provide BCV…………waiting…

    Some may use entertainment as a marketing tool, while others use it as an outreach to others to spread the gospel of Christ.

    “There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works in all.”

    “Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some have unwittingly entertained angels.”

    Now why don’t you show me the BCV that proves God condemns music in worship.

    On October 22, 2008 at 9:49 am churchesofChrist Said:
    Peter tied baptism to repentance with the word “AND” …meaning they had to not only repent, but had to be baptized in water as well.

    It is the repenting that brought them salvation not the baptism, and Peter knew that. In Peter’s very next sermon in Acts 3:19 when he was speaking to a group of people, baptism is left out altogether, but he tells them to repent. So we can see that it wasn’t the baptism that brought forgiveness it was the repentance. It is our faith in Jesus Christ that brings forgiveness.

  87. Jeff,

    How did I know you were going to respond that way? Somehow I instinctively knew that you (or someone else on “your side” of this issue) would quote that half and leave off the rest, where I said:

    “If by that comment you seek to justify opposing things like the “skate church”.”

    That’s the crux of the matter here – that you are trying to fit the 1st Century church into your image, and then declare that that is the image of the 1st Century church. And you then deflect by calling deflection.

    And I wasn’t deflecting, by the way. My questions are asked in the hope that it will make you consider your position on this subject from a different POV. And it hasn’t been answered before in this context.

  88. I have read this POV from others and it just doesn’t fly when you keep reading the text….they were added to the body upon obeying the command Peter gave to the question they ask. Sure, they were repenting of that sin, but they also heard the entire message Peter preached…they knew then Jesus was God in the flesh

    Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23This man was handed over to you by God’s set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men,[d] put him to death by nailing him to the cross. 24But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him. 25David said about him:
    ” ‘I saw the Lord always before me.
    Because he is at my right hand,
    I will not be shaken.
    26Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices;
    my body also will live in hope,
    27because you will not abandon me to the grave,
    nor will you let your Holy One see decay.
    28You have made known to me the paths of life;
    you will fill me with joy in your presence.'[e]
    29″Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ,[f] that he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay. 32God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. 33Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,
    ” ‘The Lord said to my Lord:
    “Sit at my right hand
    35until I make your enemies
    a footstool for your feet.” ‘[g]
    36″Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

  89. 41Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

  90. “Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some have unwittingly entertained angels.”

    Truth, what does entertain mean here…

  91. Truth, we have went over this so many times that I have lost count…….you can try to go around this all you like, but Peter made baptism equal with repentance when he used the word “AND”.

    Jack AND Jill went up the hill……….who went up the hill? You would say Jack….I think the word “AND” means they both went up the hill.

    Repent AND be baptized, each of you….seems to me they both are part of Peters command to the question they ask….

  92. The word translated “entertain strangers” is the Greek word [philoxenox], meaning to be friendly to those who you don’t know. It’s taken from the root words [philos] meaning friend, and [xenos] which here means someone with whom you are not acquainted. This is the only place where this is translated “entertain strangers”, it’s normal translation is hospitality. This verse is saying always be hospitable or “friendly to those who you do not know” because thereby some have entertained (or hosted) Angels/Messengers.

  93. Truth said: “It is our faith in Jesus Christ that brings forgiveness.”

    – Did the men in Acts 2 have faith in Christ prior to asking Peter what should they do? YES!

    Again – the word “AND” makes baptism and repenting on the same ground with each other…sorry, but there is no way around this. Sure its faith in Christ…the men in Acts 2 had faith in Chirst and acted upon that faith – doing what Peter commanded.

  94. Jesus saved the thief on the cross, who was not baptized. Cornelius and the others with him were saved, who had not been baptized yet, Paul was saved when he got his sight back, and he wasn’t baptized yet. Jesus healed many people and gave them mercy just for having faith and believing who He is, the same mercy God gives to “whoever” believes Jesus is their Savior. Through faith by His grace we are saved.

  95. Randy,

    I did quote Scripture in my initial defense of the “skate church”. Remember? I stand by the interpretation and the application. If you don’t remember, just read back.

    And I didn’t quote Scripture with regards to Jesus’ methodology, b/c I wasn’t writing a thesis paper on the subject, just making an observation. The Scripture is there for anyone to see – look at any of the parables.

    You are right that Jesus wasn’t an entertainer in that he wasn’t seeking to be a diversion to people like most entertainment does. He was talking about the Kingdom of God, for heaven’s sake. But that doesn’t mean he wasn’t entertaining.

    When I was in school, I had teachers who were entertaining while they taught, and they made the subject come alive because of their method of teaching. This is the picture I have of Jesus. People flocked to listen to him speak because he was a good storyteller. Not only that, but he did amazing things – like you mentioned – healings, etc – and people love to be amazed (Matt 12:23). And not only that, but he was controversial – he did and said things that drove people up the wall – and people love controversy (for an example, read the end of Matt 12).

    Jesus didn’t just preach the word – he took it to extremes. He lived what he taught to the extreme. And they crucified him for it. Maybe if he had just stuck to safe preaching they’d have left him alone.

    Now, back to my question – is it a sin to be entertained in worship – or to entertain?

  96. “sorry, but there is no way around this”

    Tell that to the Thief on the Cross and Cornelius when you see them in Heaven! Things are more flexible, you just refuse to see them because it does not fit the pattern so I check off my God to do lists.

    “Again – the word “AND” makes baptism and repenting on the same ground with each other…sorry”

    Then you equate water on the same level as God, what should we call this water god? Aqua perhaps? Or can you see they were responsible for killing Jesus! His death was on their hands, just as it was on Judas’ hands.

    They were dead men, they saw that, they were offered forgiveness and a promotion to the priesthood through baptism, who in their right mind knowing they have helped to kill the savior would not take that offer? What shocks me is that some did not do so.

    Their works did not save them, but they did prove they were serious by doing them. Jesus saved them through his sin sacrifice they were washed in and sealed by the Holy Spirit.

    Sure its faith in Christ Ho hum oh yeah btw they did have faith, that is what it sounds like reading, baptism baptism baptism in water water water is salvation salvation salvation oh and btw they also had faith in whats his name again? Or yeah Jesus!

    It seems to me that water is stressed to the Jews and spirit stressed to the gentiles who are also baptized in water to maintain unity. Why because the gentiles would have little if any knowledge of what Leviticus said was the Priest’s duties in sin sacrifice, but to a Jew water was a key part of that event. To leave it out would have placed a stumbling block in the way of those Peter was trying to reach and he himself would have been uncomfortable with it, but with water as part of the process it was a logical next step for them to follow into salvation. Jesus still saved them, they just used part of the Jewish traditions to make the transition easier.

    Peter still did not really totally get it, none of them really fully saw, Paul talked about seeing in part but it is ignored because we have labeled the perfect as the Bible instead of seeing Christ as the perfect we will see face to face.

    If they really totally got it, why was there even a meeting over circumcision that they discussed and weighed things? If they all had perfect knowledge they sure didn’t need a meeting over something they already knew was true!

    Yet they did and I believe that Paul argued for the gentiles that they should not be made to suffer under that old covenant rule and won the argument in front of the council and as a concession to keep from offending the Jewish believers there they left the food issues in the letter.

    Paul preached against food as an issue, it is clearly shown he is going against council wishes his argument was sound that idols and food mean nothing, but it was against the “rules”. He almost died for it in Acts 21.

    Paul’s defocus on baptism of water was because he was reaching out to gentiles who would see it as a symbol and not an act of salvation itself. Because it had no tradition with many of them, yet they had to keep the unity by baptizing in water.

    And we end up arguing over and over again about the one baptism being water or Spirit. It is the death to the old ways of thinking only of self and what about me and transitioning into a life that is about serving and sacrifice for others, that is the death and life. The water is Jesus, he called himself living water, the Spirit is Jesus, they are one because the Father is one.

  97. Hospitality, it’s OK to hand someone a roll basket at the table as an act of kindness to feed a stranger but we can’t give them a skate and an environment where they will receive spiritual food and hear the gospel because that’s against the rules, it may be a kind act and an act of hospitality but we can’t cause we would be unclean for it.

    It is the same mentality that Jesus taught about with the Good Samaritan, he risked being unclean to touch the man in need, the religious leaders would not risk it, yet you can’t see the similarities because the rules are in the way of seeing! Open your eyes!

  98. “He gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some evangelists; and some pastors and teachers .., for the work of the ministry” (Eph. 4:11-12). Where do entertainers come in?

    We are not sugar candy, —”Ye are the salt” (Matt. 5:13) —something the world will spit out, not swallow. Short and sharp was the utterance, “Let the dead bury their dead” (Matt. 8:22).

    After Peter and John were locked up for preaching, the church had a prayer meeting but they did NOT pray, “Lord grant unto Thy servants that by a wise and discriminating use of innocent recreation and entertainment we may show these people how happy we are. If they ceased not from preaching Christ, they had not time for arranging entertainments. Scattered by persecution, they went everywhere preaching the gospel. They turned the world upside down (Acts 17:6).”

  99. Maybe I am not getting the point across – I am not saying we cant skate or even have groups of Christians meeting to skate, nor am I saying we cant go to the skating park and proclaim the gospel to the lost. However, I am saying we should go into the world preaching the gospel and allow it to be the means that attracts the lost and not some clever methods of entertainment. That’s all I am trying to say…anyways, nuff bout this….tired of repeating myself…

  100. hey when the CoC stops declaring everyone else but themselves as saved, I’ll be happy to go back to what I was doing, until then I will keep posting.

    Does the CoC Accept Matthew 28:19’s baptism? If not why not, it is Jesus himself saying it isn’t it?

  101. Assorted comments.

    Nathan:

    Why else would people have flocked to hear him speak if His words didn’t have some 1st Century entertainment value

    Because they thought He was the Messiah. They thought He was going to set up an earthly kingdom and militarily drive the Romans out of Palestine.

    When that didn’t happen, the vast majority of the Jews rejected Him. Jesus wasn’t the sort of Messiah they wanted – just as He isn’t for so many today.

    That’s the crux of the matter here – that you are trying to fit the 1st Century church into your image, and then declare that that is the image of the 1st Century church.

    No, as I said, I’m simply trying to determine what the first century church did.

    And it hasn’t been answered before in this context.

    I’ve answered them before. Corey answered them before. Why ask questions when you already know the answer and you already know you will refuse it?

    walkinginlove:

    Thanks you answered my question

    Actually, I didn’t. But, again, we both know you weren’t really looking for an answer. Especially since you chose to continue on and invent one for me. 🙂

    DMH:

    Your church has no form of outside activties to speak of besides “proper” Sunday morning worship services

    I tend to prefer calling what the church does by the Scriptural term: the assembly. “Worship” is a very general term often misapplied.

    We come together as the church to take the Lord’s Supper. While assembled for that purpose, we usually sing together. We always pray together. We often study the Word together. If there’s a need, we take up a collection to fill it.

    Separate from the assembly, we do many things as Christians, either individually or in groups. However, I don’t think you asked about those.

  102. No Jeff I concluded based on your post your answer, it is standard CoC practice to infer is it not? 😉

  103. “Separate from the assembly, we do many things as Christians, either individually or in groups. However, I don’t think you asked about those.”

    – That is specifically what I am asking. Please elaborate as to what these activities are, why you do them, and what makes them separate from the assembly.

  104. walkingin:

    No Jeff I concluded based on your post your answer, it is standard CoC practice to infer is it not?

    Thank you for illustrating that not all inferences are necessary. Or even close to true. 🙂

    DMH:

    Please elaborate as to what these activities are, why you do them, and what makes them separate from the assembly.

    I could no more enumerate all of them than I could count the sand on the shore. If I had to sum up, it would be something like Galatians 6:10 and James 1:27.

  105. randy,
    since i know you are a family man, let me
    pose a question to you.
    the discussion is about entertaining people in place of the gospel being preached in a unwatered down form.
    how do you teach your children about the bible?
    do you use puppets or cartoon felt boards[do they still make those?].
    do you try to make it appealing to them or do you only tell them to repent and be baptized?
    i think i know your answer, i know what i do.
    i try to be as entertaining as i can and they love it.
    arent the lost just like children?
    no….. everything isnt ok but dont we have some latitude?
    lee

  106. If the “skate church” guys were setting up a skating place (what do they call it?), playing rock music, and selling skateboards, I’d say they shouldn’t call it “skate church”. But they also speak the Word. It says it right there in the article.

    Read it, ya’ll:

    At Skate Church, riders worship with a rock band, and hear a message.

    “There’s something better than drugs, alcohol, sex, any of that stuff. There’s something better than that,” Trinity Baptist Youth Minister Scott Sullivan said.

    This idea is making a difference for these teens.

    Will all the kids ultimately be saved? No. Will some? Yes, we can hope and pray.

    How is that any different than what happens in any of the churches we attend each week? Will all the people gathering at our various assemblies be saved? No. Will some? Yes, we can hope and pray.

    Did you guys also notice that this is not a Sunday morning gathering? This is Tuesday night. Would you support that? If not, why not? What’s your hang up with this – that they call it “church”?

    I’m sorry, dudes, but while I respect your opinion (and it is opinion), I disagree wholeheartedly – especially in a case like this.

    And again I ask, and wonder why NOBODY from the other side of the aisle will take five seconds and answer…

    Is it a sin to be entertained in worship? Is it a sin to entertain?

  107. Can anyone tell me how you can commit adultery and it is a valid reason to divorce, but because you are married to a divorced person you commit adultery and that does not break that marriage vow?

    Adultery is adultery if you commit it the vows are dissolved, it is a cyclic calculation or circular calculation. But in CoC teaching you have to make another divorce to fix this and go back to the original partner.

    How is it the adultery you cause by divorcing for the wrong reasons are not fornication grounds for divorce??????????????

    I’ve been tempted to ask this before but because I have watched some poor woman be crushed under this foolishness I have to ask it!

  108. And a question to those on the other side of the aisle…

    Do you oppose the way that churches like the Martinsville cofC, the Reidsville cofC and the Danville cofC use television to try and reach their communities?

  109. Speaking of the broadcasts, I was watching James a bit tonight. He spent (and they do this often) so much time talking about all the people who are “scared” of coming on his program.

    And people give money to help keep these programs on the air?

  110. Lee said: how do you teach your children about the bible?
    do you use puppets or cartoon felt boards[do they still make those?].
    do you try to make it appealing to them or do you only tell them to repent and be baptized?

    – Lee, my three kids just turned 5 years old and not able yet to understand the gospel. When they are, I would tell them just like Peter. They are in a Christian school/day care and have been since 3 years of age and they already know a great deal about the bible – the stories anyways and yes, I am sure they were taught a bit diff from us adults…anyways, nuff said on this

  111. How about a “dance church” is this ok too?

    “The Praise Dance Ministry consists of children and adults who praise the Lord through our unique expressions of dance. It is a dance that is Christ centered and it is a reflection of our hearts as we praise and worship the Lord. We dance during praise and worship at our church services; during special events; “and, as an outreach”, we go outside our four walls to minister in dance spreading the love of Christ. Additionally, our children minister to children through dance at Children’s Church.”

    All Nations Community Church

  112. “How about a “dance church” is this ok too?”

    Excellent redirection of the question to not answer it!

  113. On October 22, 2008 at 1:16 pm churchesofChrist Said:

    “He gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some evangelists; and some pastors and teachers .., for the work of the ministry” (Eph. 4:11-12). Where do entertainers come in?

    We are not sugar candy, —”Ye are the salt” (Matt. 5:13) —something the world will spit out, not swallow. Short and sharp was the utterance, “Let the dead bury their dead” (Matt. 8:22).

    After Peter and John were locked up for preaching, the church had a prayer meeting but they did NOT pray, “Lord grant unto Thy servants that by a wise and discriminating use of innocent recreation and entertainment we may show these people how happy we are. If they ceased not from preaching Christ, they had not time for arranging entertainments. Scattered by persecution, they went everywhere preaching the gospel. They turned the world upside down (Acts 17:6).”

  114. I am sorry that you guys don’t see this…no intentions at all at redirecting a question. I answered it, you just don’t see the answer. It is wrong to use a medium other than what God already has – YES! Is it sin to add to Gods word? YES! Did God say use entertainment as a marketing tool to win the lost? NO! Now you tell me what God has done to win the lost – how is the seed planted? … time to change subjects. Corey has an interesting post on “when that which is perfect is come”

  115. You guys know I am against “pattern theology” but I have the feeling you all took me the wrong way…as if I was saying we have no patterns, rules, or standards. I was not at all implying that we are free to do as we please, but simply speaking against man-made patterns built from assumptions and inferences. But, the bible lays out clear-cut-direct patterns that we MUST follow….and not once is there a pattern of using entertainment to help God plant the seed…I will stick to His Word for the seed planting…and maybe preaching IT will draw in those who are lost….I don’t think God needs my supposed clever methods of entertainment to win the lost…

  116. I believe God can do His work through us in many ways and through many things. I see God working through that man to reach out to those kids.

  117. “It is wrong to use a medium other than what God already has – YES! Is it sin to add to Gods word? YES! Did God say use entertainment as a marketing tool to win the lost? NO!”

    But I’m not advocating adding to God’s word.

    First, I’ve already shown that Jesus himself was a storyteller, and that his stories engaged his audience in a way that drew the masses. You can argue that it was only the fact that he was speaking the Truth that drew people, but if that was the case why did he choose to use stories? Why not just tell people the cut and dry X steps to heaven? He engaged people’s imaginations in his desire to share the Truth. This is what I advocate in churches – thinking outside the box and using your God-given gifts and abilities to share the Gospel – like the Lord did.

    Second, I’ve already shown that Paul said that he would become “all things to all people” in order to save a few. So, for members of a church to host a “skate church” on Tuesday nights to reach some kids who are wandering far from Jesus is completely authorized. Paul gives the authorization. All things to all people. Read the passage again.

    As to your statement that God didn’t say to use entertainment as a marketing tool. I agree. God also didn’t say use television, radio, internet, or even the printing press as a marketing or even evangelistic tool, and yet I wonder if you (and the other dudes on the other side of aisle) are also as diametrically opposed to such practices? Isn’t that “adding to the Word”? I don’t think so.

    You are right, though, that we are not making any headway either way on this subject. As I said earlier, I’ll agree to disagree if you will, and I won’t force you to go to “skate church”. 😉

  118. Paul meant that he would do nothing which would offend any person: he didn’t provide “entertainment based events” to attract people to Christ – he preached the Gospel.

    Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled. Jn.6:26

    We can follow Christ for the wrong reasons.

    Paul was not going to accommodate to paganism but put his very life at risk to be counter-cultural. The idea that Paul would have to merge his gospel message into Greek culture is truly outrageous:

    Paul didn’t say that he would become everything but “everything which was consistent with the gospel”. He said that he would become a slave “for the sake of the gospel.” And he knew that when he preached the gospel they would tar and feather him and ride him out of town on a rail.

    As you stated – lets move on…

  119. Girlymen of the Bible –

    John 8:59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

    John 12:35Then Jesus told them, “You are going to have the light just a little while longer. Walk while you have the light, before darkness overtakes you. The man who walks in the dark does not know where he is going. 36Put your trust in the light while you have it, so that you may become sons of light.” When he had finished speaking, Jesus left and hid himself from them.

    James Oldfield should not call Jesus a girlyman! Its not proper! I mean really Jesus should have been man enough to stand up to him right James?

    But then again those who would see that believers in Christ arguing over doctrine as a sin should not sin! But then again neither should you condemn them for seeing it as such.

    LOL girly men now that is a term I can’t find in the bible, is it authorized? 😉 LOLOL

  120. I read this story a little while ago and wanted to share it:

    At a fundraising dinner for a school that serves children with learning disabilities, the father of one of the students delivered a speech
    that would never be forgotten by all who attended. After extolling the school and its dedicated staff, he offered a question:

    ‘When not interfered with by outside influences, everything nature does, is done with perfection. Yet my son, Shay, cannot learn things as other children do. He cannot understand things as other children do. Where is the natural order of things in my son?’

    The audience was stilled by the query. The father continued. ‘I believe that when a child like Shay, who was mentally and physically disabled comes into the world, an opportunity to realize true human nature presents itself, and it comes in the way other people treat that child.’ Then he told the following story:
    Shay and I had walked past a park where some boys Shay knew were playing baseball. Shay asked , ‘Do you think they’ll let me play?’ I knew that most of the boys would not want someone like Shay on their team, but as a father I also understood that if my son were allowed to play, it would give him a much-needed sense of belonging and some confidence to be accepted by others in spite of his handicaps.

    I approached one of the boys on the field and asked (not expecting much) if Shay could play. The boy looked around for guidance and said, ‘We’re losing by six runs and the game is in the eighth inning. I guess he can be on our team and we’ll try to put him in to bat in the ninth inning.’ Shay struggled over to the team’s bench and, with a broad smile, put on a team shirt. I watched with a small tear in my eye and warmth in my heart. The boys saw my joy at my son being accepted. In the bottom of the eighth inning, Shay’s team scored a few runs but was still behind by three. In the top of the ninth inning, Shay put on a glove and played in the right field. Even though no hits came his way, he was obviously ecstatic just to be in the game and on the field, grinning from ear to ear as I waved to him from the stands. In the bottom of the ninth inning, Shay’s team scored again. Now, with two outs and the bases loaded, the potential winning run was on base and Shay was scheduled to be next at bat. At this juncture, do they let Shay bat and give away their chance to win the game? Surprisingly, Shay was given the bat. Everyone knew that a hit was all but impossible because Shay didn’t even know how to hold the bat properly, much less connect with the ball. However, as Shay stepped up to the plate, the pitcher, recognizing that the other team was putting winning aside for this moment in Shay’s life, moved in a few steps to lob the ball in softly so Shay could at least make contact.
    The first pitch came and Shay swung clumsily and missed. The pitcher again took a few steps forward to toss the ball softly towards Shay. As the pitch came in, Shay swung at the ball and hit a slow ground ball right back to the pitcher. The game would now be over.

    The pitcher picked up the soft grounder and could have easily thrown the ball to the first baseman. Shay would have been out and that would have been the end of the game. Instead, the pitcher threw the ball right over the first baseman’s head, out of reach of all team mates. Everyone from the stands and both teams started yelling, ‘Shay, run to first! Run to first!’ Never in his life had Shay ever run that far, but he made it to first base. He scampered down the baseline, wide-eyed and startled. Everyone yelled, ‘Run to second, run to second!’ Catching his breath, Shay awkwardly ran towards second, gleaming and struggling to make it to the base. By the time Shay rounded towards second base, the right fielder had the ball; the smallest guy on their team who now had his first chance to be the hero for his team. He could have thrown the ball to the second-baseman for the tag, but he understood the pitcher’s intentions so he, too, intentionally threw the ball high and far over the third-baseman’s head. Shay ran toward third base deliriously as the runners ahead of him circled the bases toward home. All were screaming, ‘Shay, Shay, Shay, all the Way Shay’ Shay reached third base because the opposing shortstop ran to help him by turning him in the direction of third base, and shouted, ‘Run to third! Shay, run to third!’ As Shay rounded third, the boys from both teams, and the spectators, were on their feet screaming, ‘Shay, run home! Run home!’ Shay ran to home, stepped on the plate, and was cheered as the hero who hit the grand slam and won the game for his team.

    ‘That day’, said the father softly with tears now rolling down his face, ‘the boys from both teams helped bring a piece of true love and humanity into this world’. Shay didn’t make it to another summer. He died that winter, having never forgotten being the hero and making me so happy, and coming home and seeing his Mother tearfully embrace her little hero of the day!

    AND NOW A LITTLE FOOT NOTE TO THIS STORY
    We all have thousands of opportunities every single day to help realize the natural order of things.’ So many seemingly trivial interactions between two people present us with a choice: Do we pass along a little spark of love and humanity or do we pass up those opportunities and leave the world a little bit colder in the process?

    May your day be a Shay Day.

  121. john didnt want to concede that the birth of jesus was different from us because that would confirm the reason jesus had no earthly father.
    the sacrifice had to be without spot and that couldnt happen with an earthly father.
    thats why he insisted on there being no difference in the two births.
    lee

  122. yes, Johnnys show is entertaining ! Like I have said before – its like the Jerry Springer show and this is what I dont like about his program on TV. He does things that will capture viewers and thats the same thing as the Skate church…using entertainment as a means to attract people…thats why I have said over and over – that I wish he would just preach/teach without all of the “lures”.

  123. It’s not lures it’s skandalizo –

    1) to put a stumbling block or impediment in the way, upon which
    another may trip and fall, metaph. to offend
    1a) to entice to sin
    1b) to cause a person to begin to distrust and desert one whom
    he ought to trust and obey
    1b1) to cause to fall away
    1b2) to be offended in one, i.e. to see in another what I
    disapprove of and what hinders me from acknowledging his
    authority
    1b3) to cause one to judge unfavourably or unjustly of another
    1c) since one who stumbles or whose foot gets entangled feels annoyed
    1c1) to cause one displeasure at a thing
    1c2) to make indignant
    1c3) to be displeased, indignant

  124. Hey if my Pastor was trying to really keep me from the truth, why didn’t he black out the passages he did not want me to see? I saw were JR says he is trying to keep me from the truth, so where do I look for the pages he took out of “The Lord’s” Bible?

    If he has not blacked out the pages or removed them, how does he keep me from reading the truth? Or is that simply a false statement based on an unwritten creed? 😉

  125. Hey wait a minute a couple of the pages of my Bible seem to be stuck together, I bet my Pastor took some glue and glued them, what do ya think?? 😉

  126. Johnny tries to say that we are not born in sin and that Adam was a perfect man. First of all Jesus is the only perfect man to have ever lived on the earth. If Adam had been perfect then he would not have sinned. A child doesn’t understand what a lie is when they first tell a lie, that’s why we need to teach them that when they don’t tell the truth that it is a lie and that it is wrong to tell a lie. I believe a child is innocent even though they can do things that are sinful because they don’t understand exactly what sin is until they reach an age when they can understand it better, which I believe every child learns on different levels in time. This logic is even used in our judicial system because they make sure that a child can understand the difference between telling a lie and the truth before they would ever let that child be used for testimony in a trial. For someone to say that we are not born in sin and that Adam was a perfect man then that would mean that Jesus is not the only man who lived on earth that was perfect and was without sin and to say that is a lie.

  127. Caught a few minutes of JR tonight.

    “We knocked X number of doors!” “We’ve given out X number of pamphlets!”
    “We’re working for no pay!” Look at us! Look what we’re doing!

    Work, work, work. JR and friends are working their way to heaven, it seems.

    Too bad he didn’t read Isaiah 64:6 and Romans 3:10 in the middle of his bragging about all that they do as “spiritual sacrifice”.

  128. On December 29, 2007 at 9:27 pm James Said:

    Whatever happened with Jason Hairston is between that congregation and Jason. Why do you think the community is “owed” an explanation about what happened? It’s none of their business! Will you explain to me every problem that occurs in your congregation? I hope not because it’s none of my business.

    hmmmmmmmm……………is, was this coc or james talking?
    seems like someone wants to know what goes on in the
    denominational churches.
    hi nat.
    lee

  129. The things Richard Dawkins says about God that JR claims are because of denominational worship of a demonic god:

    vindictive bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser – willing to wipe out another race

    1 Sam 15:1 Samuel said to Saul, “I am the one the LORD sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the LORD. 2 This is what the LORD Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy [a] everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’ ”

    misogynistic – having or showing a hatred and distrust of women

    1 Tim 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.

    homophobic –

    Lav 20:13 ” ‘If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

    racist – The passage list for the first item fits here also.

    infanticidal – The passage list for the first item fits here also.

    genocidal – The passage list for the first item fits here also.

    filicidal – a person who kills his or her son or daughter.

    Abraham attempted to kill his son, Gen. verse 10 Then he reached out his hand and took the knife to slay his son and of course Jesus death as part of God’s will.

    pestilential – 1 a: causing or tending to cause pestilence : deadly b: of or relating to pestilence

    See the varius plagues that God brought to the Egyptians.

    megalomaniacal – a delusional mental disorder that is marked by feelings of personal omnipotence and grandeur

    sadomasocistic – the derivation of pleasure from the infliction of physical or mental pain either on others or on oneself

    I believe since Jesus is God that Jesus sacrifice would have been the source of the above statement.

    capricious malevolent bully – Various passages including the passage for the first item would cause this assumption.

    What is the point I am making? JR said that the reason Dawkins says this is because of the false church of denominations, this is yet another biased statement, Dawkins could build his case purely from the Old Testament without any christian era events!

    Sorry I was away, I am catching up on TV! 😉

  130. On October 26, 2008 at 9:51 pm lee Said:

    On December 29, 2007 at 9:27 pm James Said:

    Whatever happened with Jason Hairston is between that congregation and Jason. Why do you think the community is “owed” an explanation about what happened? It’s none of their business! Will you explain to me every problem that occurs in your congregation? I hope not because it’s none of my business.

    hmmmmmmmm……………is, was this coc or james talking?
    seems like someone wants to know what goes on in the
    denominational churches.
    hi nat.
    lee

    Just another example of the pattern of hypocrisy!

  131. Outlaw behavior, LOL now that is funny to see people who ignore any authority except there own talk about outlaw behavior!

  132. On October 26, 2008 at 10:22 pm walkinginlove Said:
    On October 26, 2008 at 9:51 pm lee Said:

    On December 29, 2007 at 9:27 pm James Said:

    James: “Whatever happened with Jason Hairston is between that congregation and Jason. Why do you think the community is “owed” an explanation about what happened? It’s none of their business! Will you explain to me every problem that occurs in your congregation? I hope not because it’s none of my business.”

    – I dont think this is the same James…seeing they do indeed make things in other churches their business. This may have been from someone else and not James Oldfield.

  133. The fact is Jason isnt with them anymore…to be honest…this is a hard pill still for me to swallow…I still watch some DVD’s of Jason preaching…its a shame things happened as they did….but he wishes that we not talk about this…so lets move on and let this go

  134. On October 27, 2008 at 5:47 am churchesofChrist Said:

    The fact is Jason isnt with them anymore…to be honest…this is a hard pill still for me to swallow…I still watch some DVD’s of Jason preaching…its a shame things happened as they did….but he wishes that we not talk about this…so lets move on and let this go

    But Johnny Springer and do his thing and that’s acceptable to the body of believers in the CoC?

    Not pointed at you but it does seem to be a different set of rules trying to be applied.

  135. Randy does maintain contact with Jason, so we can respect that Jason wants to put it behind him. But just as a final comment, walkinginlove makes a great point that JR and company claim to be beacons of openness and virtue, and yet Jason’s leaving was shrouded in secrecy, leading those of us on the outside to smell a double standard.

    I am still stunned by how overwhelmingly negative JR and JO have been on air recently. I watched an excellent DVD on Sunday from a Baptist pastor out of Florida. I was amazed at how he was helping his viewers understand how to apply Scripture to their lives so that they could live fully and freely for Christ. He wasn’t spending his time telling what everyone else was doing wrong, but he was teaching his viewers how to walk with Christ, and how it can affect their life in a Christ-affirming way.

    Man, was the difference between this guy and JR and JO stark. And before a hypercon claims that the man was a false teacher or a wolf in sheep’s clothing, the man preached the Word – not HIS Word, but the Word of God.

  136. Ah but he was not in a church ordained by God, but then they mainly met in homes of believers in those times so no building is authorized nor a sign!

    Preaching the word is not enough, unless he teaches that you have to be baptized like Acts 2:38 he is a false teacher, it does not matter that the target of that message was those who had helped kill Jesus. Acts 2:23, that they were the everyone in his message. It explains how Paul seems to be so focused on faith and belief and away from Baptism, yet he also wants to promote unity and teaches that baptism is a symbol of the death of the old man and a rebirth of the new spirit filled man. Though that is in there it has to conform to the message given to those who helped kill Christ otherwise it is false teaching.

    Acts 2:23This man was handed over to you by God’s set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.

    They had helped nail him to the cross. That is a filter for Acts 2:38 that needs application!

  137. You need to understand the mentality here though – he was part of “them” …in other words part of what they consider the REAL church. They see Jason now as a brother who has left the church, and do not put him on equal ground as denominational folk.

    I hope and wish to see Jason preaching again, but I doubt that ever will happen. My hearts hurts because of this….and I do blame one person for pushing him in the direction he is now in….but I will let that rest.

  138. Maybe I shouldn’t refer to his show as “Johnny Springer” but there is that sort of entertainment aspect to it….and that’s why many watch him….its like a bad car wreck, you know you might not like what you see, but you still find yourself wanting to look. I wish he would just do as most coC preachers and “just preach” without all of the drama and stuff attached. This is just running more away from the church. I know of one sinner who watched him once and said “this is why I don’t go to church”….

  139. oh I understand the mentality that allows them to condemn all others who do not see the word as they do as false teachers. It doesn’t matter that the false teachers in the bible were mostly gnostics who disavowed God the Father as the same as Jesus.

    Thus the very use of false teacher in this case is a liberal usage, and that is one of the biggest ironies of this mess!

  140. False teachers were those who did not even desire Christ…..not people who were mistaken on some points….if so, we are all false teachers….

  141. Excellent point and also we have to call Peter the same since Matthew 28:19 and Acts 2:38 do not match up letter for letter! If you go legal enough you can get to that point, because they are different in practice!

  142. I disagree. I see no discrepancies between the two passages.

    19″Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit”

    Jesus is simply saying he authorizes baptism. This isn’t some word formula that one must say to make baptism valid….it just means “by the authority of God” and Peter done this in Acts 2:38. By Gods authority Peter baptized many and God added them to the body.

  143. Why don’t we discuss some other issues…I will admit something that bothers me: “where was the church of Christ prior to Campbell and after the apostles died” , meaning where in history can I find the teachings of the church of Christ during this time period? I tend to believe that when the great apostasy was born that the real church went underground, but I have no real prove of this. It seems possible that the church shortly after its birth began to stray away from biblical teachings and then at some point most departed, leaving only a remnant behind….but where was the church during this time and why did they not come from hiding after Campbell…instead of looking as though the church of Christ teachings was started by Campbell.

  144. John the Baptist also baptized with water for the remission of sins. “John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism for the remission of sins.”

    John the Baptist also preached that he baptizes with water but One mightier than him will baptize us with the Holy Spirit speaking about Jesus. So John tells us there that it is the baptism of the Holy Spirit that will save us not water baptism. “There comes One after me who is mightier than I, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to stoop down and loose. I indeed baptize you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

    And also John the Baptist baptized Jesus with water but as we all know Jesus did not have sin, so water does not take away our sins.

  145. Hi guys,

    Just in for a minute. Will check back in a few hours.

    Meanwhile, Randy – what is “the great Apostasy”?

  146. CoC supposed History:

    http://traces-of-the-kingdom.org/

    http://www.netbiblestudy.net/history/

    You will find it interesting reading, I have gone through and debunked some of the people listed as they do not hold to current doctrine and that is the judge to go by to see if doctrine changed. Because if it has, then the doctrine is not the one from Acts they claim to hold to but a morphing one!

    For instance in the second site Notatus is listed as the one who kept the faith so to speak and he was crowned as Pope if you research it, hardly CoC pratice today LOL!

    It appears that the bitter roots of this started in that time!

    Anyway read with a grain of salt and then compare to other records, the truth is somewhere between both accounts as it usually is with a power struggle.

  147. Yes Truth one of the scenario’s I explored was to see if there was a scenario that left water baptism as a unauthorized event. While I concede that any self respecting christian would consider it heresy to consider that scenario, I felt that it needed to be explored anyway as John the Baptist never said anything about Jesus baptizing with water.

    If you add that Mark 9 on could possibly be added text and not from the original author and also that Matthew 28:19 appears to also have been altered you now have no reference to water unless you include John and the story about Nicodemus but that is really about Spirit birth as the final statements clarify.

    My Pastor laughed when I brought it up speaking on church history and practice as evidence that water baptism was authorized but I have to question it based on the questionable text involved and knowing that God allowed Divorce in the Old Testament that was not supposed to be allowed and according to CoC views are going to place many in hell for doing so, and this was when God’s judgments were much more harsh and unforgiving then it appears to be in the New Testament when the apostles failed to follow things to the letter.

    You do realize that under Old Testament leadership rules, just as Moses was not allowed to enter into the Promised Land for his failure in striking the rock instead of doing as God commanded that Peter’s failure to Baptize to the letter of Mathew 28:19 should have brought God down on him and it did not.

    JR is quick to site Moses when trying to drum up fear to reconvert people but he fails to see that Peter did not follow Mathew 28:19 to the letter of the law.

    Why is it that God did not punish Peter for not baptizing in the names of the trinity, if striking a rock as opposed to speaking over it is grounds to banish one from the promised land when you have followed the commands up to that point perfectly how is it that Peter was not held to the same standard?

    Also Paul’s calling out of Peter of favoritism in public and apparently without using Matthew 18 as a guideline and going privately first is a failure on his part, yet again no correction from God comes.

    Paul preaches against food as being anything important but the council clearly said otherwise, yet nothing is done to correct it other then to try and cover it up in Acts 21 with the head shavings to try and keep Paul from being killed.

    Clearly God’s judgment bar seems to have lowered otherwise Peter is a dead man for his failures, Paul also according to the things Jesus said.

    Now one scenario I saw from a site was that Jesus should be considered Old Testament, that his commands should be ignored, but I fail to find reason to believe that, who tell the disciples anything about what he expected of them if none of it was going to last past his death. That line of reasoning makes no sense.

    And yes in older days they would have burned me at a stake for saying any of the above or at least kick me out of church for it. Fortunately the people I fellowship with chose to follow love as the highest goal and allow weakness in others! And conversely I submit my rights to the weakness of them also so that we might walk in unity of the spirit of the law!

  148. FYI I have a comment pending with links for two CoC sites that list history of the CoC, one going back to the original Acts days.

    You will find it interesting reading when it is cleared for viewing!

  149. The Great Apostasy was/is a time of a Great Falling Away from the truth. “Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together to Him, that you may not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction” (2 Thess. 2:1-3). I believe this ( Great Falling away ) to be something that started shortly after that the Apostles died and now the end result being a bunch of denominations believing all sorts of things and all claiming to be THE church.

  150. who tell the disciples anything about what he expected of them if none of it

    should be why tell

  151. I believe this ( Great Falling away ) to be something that started shortly after that the Apostles died and now the end result being a bunch of denominations believing all sorts of things and all claiming to be THE church.

    And the CoC are one of those groups! Just like all other denominations they have a creed that is unwritten as their view of scripture is their creed, it takes time to expose it but it is there.

    For example is there any denomination that would say Cornelius was already saved in Acts 10 before Peter shows up? If not why not? His Prayers are already heard by God, clearly this is a sign of fellowship with God! The Angel is not a normal Angel as Cornelius calls him Lord in some translations and that is Lord and Master but the Angel does not correct this, thus I conclude the Angel is Jesus himself. Yet even though that is clear to see to anyone who will open their eyes we have to bury it in water to protect the creeds, both written and unwritten, why?

    The truth is that a relationship with God existed before Peters shows up that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit falls before water baptism and that Peter himself shows in his words that Cornelius already knows about Christ in Acts 10.

    Yet Acts 10 is thrown out as a sign and that Acts 11. That Peter’s retelling of Acts ten when he is quoting the men who told him what Cornelius told those men and adds salvation as part of the statement we take the word of a man who is biased in Jewish pratices and who assumes that is what happened instead of the Angel’s words himself? So in effect Peter is greater then Jesus by the choice of the church! Because it was Jesus speaking to Cornelius when he said Peter will bring you a message, and Peter turns around and assumes the message was how Cornelius’ house would be saved?!?!

    How is it possible that nobody has considered the fact that Cornelius was already saved?

    The truth is till the truth no matter how badly it rattles our denominational beliefs! Even if the denomination is the CoC!

  152. claiming to be THE church.

    The lines below this statement should not have been bold, sorry I forgot to / strong them.

  153. Jesus will tell MANY in the end that he NEVER knew them – sad thing is they thought He did know them..even calling Him Lord. Few there be that find the way and the rest just think they have found the way. Jesus was not talking about the saved vs. the lost, but the “saved vs. those who think they are saved”….very scary. They will even say “didn’t you see the might works I done” Jesus didn’t say they were once saved and then lost, but said he NEVER EVER knew them….not even once were they His sheep, but people who think they are his sheep. The question is why will Jesus reject so MANY and save the few??

  154. “News Flash” “News Flash” “News Flash”
    Church of Christ at Danville has two week long gospel tent meeting publicly demonstrating that the “Baptist” “Methodist” “Catholic” “Lutherine”
    “jehovah witness” “Mormon” “Muslim” “Presbyterian”
    “pentecostal” “Seven day Adventist” etc. etc. etc. “So called christian churches” DO NOT HAVE BIBLICAL AUTHORITY TO EXIST and NONE of their so called “preachers”, “bishops”, “rabbi’s”,”reverends”
    “DRs.of theology” came out to defend their polluted doctrines that they are teaching. Not even anyone from this self exalted web site calling itself “answering the Church of Christ”

  155. Thanks for the news flash. So, basically what you are saying is that the Danville cofC decided to spend all that time and money telling everyone else what they are doing wrong, rather than what the Danville cofC does right. Score! Your supporters in Texas must be so proud!

    And I’m “not” surprised “nobody” that you “mentioned” came out. Why would “they” want “to”? (What was with all the crazy “quotes”?)

  156. And by the way, I didn’t realize that Muslims considered themselves to be Christian churches.

  157. As far as I know. The same person has posted as JO each time, as far as I know. I have no reason to doubt it. If someone can email me an IP for JO, I could confirm it.

  158. I find it sad that a church group would spend two weeks trying to prove itself to the community by tearing down others in the community instead of preaching the good news of the gospel of Christ.

  159. On October 27, 2008 at 9:04 pm lee Said:
    see how randy diverts from james inconsistance by
    casting doubt on the author?

    – Lee, I was just saying that the Author didnt come across as James, seeing they do just what this Author claimed they dont. Maybe it is James – I dont know. Far as his IP goes, I think Nathan should have that too 🙂

  160. On October 27, 2008 at 5:19 pm word Said:
    “News Flash” “News Flash” “News Flash”
    Church of Christ at Danville has two week long gospel tent meeting publicly demonstrating that…

    – I just love how often people come on here using “fake names”. Oh well…I will just play along

  161. Mark 13:5-6: “And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.”

    2 Peter 3:17: “Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.”

    Acts 20:28-30: “Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.”

    2 Thessalonians 2:3: “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.”

    2 Timothy 4:3-4: “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”

    This is what I meant by “The Great Apostasy”. I believe shortly after the church was born that grievous wolves entered the churches, not sparing the flock, even men from within the church arose, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. The church began to depart from sound doctrine, seeking their own desires and seeking teachers to tell them what they wanted to hear, rather than the truth. Many of those people broke away from the true church – still claiming to be the church, and the end result is churches everywhere on the face of earth, teaching contrary doctrines, all while claiming to be the church – as Jesus said “for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.”

  162. On October 27, 2008 at 3:18 pm churchesofChrist Said:

    Do you honestly believe every group that claims to be of Christ is OF Christ?

    I believe that God really is the only one who has 100% ability to make that call, until then if you claim Christ and show the fruits of that calling you should be given the benefit of the doubt. And when you violate something that would cloud that you should ask them why they see XYZ as ok.

    While the CoC claim that all who do not baptize as in Acts 2:38 are not christian, I would say that all who judge others and do the same things are also acting in a unchristian manner. There are example all in history of people who claimed Christ but exorcised fruits that would be counter to that claim.

  163. I believe that God really is the only one who has 100% ability to make that call

    – you really dont believe this WIL. What about Mormans? JW’s? Other cults? We have one man here in town who believes he can have more than one wife and he left his first wife for a teenage girl…and now looking for another teenage girl. He is in his 50’s and preaches on TV ( WELL DID ) and has many followers. Is he saved?

  164. Most all teachers say 1 John 1:9 refers to the Christian, but does it really? “Who was John’s audience?” and “What was he trying to accomplish in this letter?” The purpose of the first chapter of 1 John was to compare the truth of God to the error of gnosticism. John was addressing the Gnostics, who were deceived by their own teaching. He wanted the Gnostics to understand that what they believed conflicted with what God said.

    John1:9 If we confess ( Admit or acknowledge ) our sins, ( that we miss the mark ) He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    John is telling his readers how to be born again. We should also keep in mind that later in John’s epistle we read:

    1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

    One who has not yet been born of God must confess his sins, and he will be forgiven and cleansed. But one who has been born of God cannot sin. There seems to be a clear progression between chapters one and three of John’s epistle. Isn’t this the definition of a Christian: one who has been forgiven and cleansed?
    Hebrews 10:14 tells us that by one sacrifice we have been “perfected forever.” Colossians 1:22 tells us that we are now “holy and unblameable and unreprovable in His sight.” 2 Corinthians 5: 21 says that we have been “made the righteousness of God.”
    One might say that John’s epistle was written only to those who were already Christians. But look at this wording at the beginning:

    1 John 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

    Yes, it was written to the church, but it was a church to which many were being added daily, as people believed “that which [the apostles had] seen and heard” so that they would enter into fellowship with God and His people. In other words, there were clearly people listening who had not yet entered into that fellowship. Otherwise, why would John have said, “we are telling you this so that you may have fellowship with us?”

    It is also important to recognize that this particular gospel delivery in 1 John 1 was also tailor-made for a Jewish audience. Imagine yourself back there preaching the message of the cross and justification by grace alone through faith to law-abiding Jews. It is reasonable that many of them might have trouble admitting they were “sinners“. I do not think 1 John 1:9 is a verse that teaches we must confess every sin to remain in fellowship or remained saved. By one sacrifice we have been “perfected forever.” Colossians 1:22 tells us that we are now “holy and unblameable and unreprovable in His sight.” 2 Corinthians 5: 21 says that we have been “made the righteousness of God.”
    If you chose to disagree with me and think that your confessing keeps you in the light – make sure you don’t miss a sin, not even one…or youre back in darkness. And what about those sins you aren’t even aware that you committed…oops…in the dark again. Its clear to me John was addressing lost people, telling them the way to God…

  165. On October 27, 2008 at 5:19 pm word Said:

    “News Flash” “News Flash” “News Flash”
    Church of Christ at Danville has two week long gospel tent meeting publicly demonstrating that the “Baptist” “Methodist” “Catholic” “Lutherine”
    “jehovah witness” “Mormon” “Muslim” “Presbyterian”
    “pentecostal” “Seven day Adventist” etc. etc. etc. “So called christian churches” DO NOT HAVE BIBLICAL AUTHORITY TO EXIST

    The original church used homes to meet in, there are examples of that over and over, but nothing about a building or a name in front of the building. You are using a greeting to transfer into a building name. That greeting was for the people no the organization(s)! And you don’t even practice the greeting properly and you call yourselves authorized when you don’t meet in homes or greet with a Holy Kiss! That’s part of the Hypocritical judgment and it is clearly done to advance the CoC denominational growth through apostasy.

    and NONE of their so called “preachers”, “bishops”, “rabbi’s”,”reverends”
    “DRs.of theology” came out to defend their polluted doctrines that they are teaching.

    I’d say when a CoC believer shows me where they actually learned something from a non-coc believer that was a biblcal truth they did not already believe in then I will worry about this issue, otherwise they are just wasting their time!

    Not even anyone from this self exalted web site calling itself “answering the Church of Christ”

    And that is because in that environment JR has the ability to twist scripture with a better chance of getting away with it, here there is time to analyze it, and HE was unwilling to debate in this arena, why?????? Is it because he knows that people will take apart his quotes and give a reply? He was challenged by another CoC preacher and declined to do so, he showed us that the glory from TV appears to be more important then actual truth!

  166. “Far as his IP goes, I think Nathan should have that too”

    I just have the IP from the comments made on this blog. I need a separate source to confirm ID.

  167. “Far as his IP goes, I think Nathan should have that too”

    I just have the IP from the comments made on this blog. I’d need a separate source to confirm ID.

  168. My yahoo and other accounts are set up to map/store IP’s, but I see no need to provide them. If James said that – oh well. If he didn’t – oh well. If this is to be a place for “answering the church of Christ”, why not visit them ( coC ) on their blogs or at least pull some of their post over here for talks. Corey and Scott’s blogs both line up with the very doctrines your blog denounces and wishes to answer…so at least do as the title states. The church of Christ do not believe in the Anti-Christ, Rapture, Pretrib, 1000 year reign on earth……why not address this? Also, how often do you hear church of Christ preachers talking about the doctrine of Justification, or Imputed Righteousness? There are many issues that could be hit, if that’s the goal of this blog.

  169. Btw, if you teach or believe in the rapture, most church of Christ folk would consider you to be teaching false doctrine…and to Johnny’s credit, he would say you are hell bound for holding the rapture view…not many are bold enough to say what they really believe…least, Johnny lays it out for everyone to see….

  170. Oh he can lay it out all he wants, but when you lay it out in order to trap others then there is a problem with the concept of stumbling blocks and millstones. Taking the easy way out by declaring them not of the body is simply that, an easy out so you can push your doctrine and use traps to catch people in their fall that you tempted them in and assume you are not going to be held accountable for that action!

    The Elect seem to have taken it on themselves to make sure as few as possible make it into heaven, Satan is on vacation since the elect have assumed his job responsibilities! After all seeking to trap is his job, seeking to destroy is his job!

    Cosmos or the world as it is translated is what God loved so much that he gave, that somehow seems to run counter to the many are called but few are chosen elect concept of things the elect seem to want to focus on and by doing so try to lower that number through their actions!

    Matthew 22:1Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: 2″The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. 3He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.

    4″Then he sent some more servants and said, ‘Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.’

    5″But they paid no attention and went off—one to his field, another to his business. 6The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. 7The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.

    The Jewish chosen would not come, they instead killed the prophets and did their business ignoring God’s call to them to come and partake.

    8″Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. 9Go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.’ 10So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, both good and bad, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.

    I note that both the Good and the Bad were invited, not just the good! Are we really following that by instituting the elect elitism?

    11″But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12’Friend,’ he asked, ‘how did you get in here without wedding clothes?’ The man was speechless.

    The Holy Spirit is the seal, and we are clothed in Christ Jesus, the clothing that was missing was the relationship with Christ and his covering. Why was the man speachless? Surely it was because he was keeping the rules but had not actually allowed those things to change his heart and clean the inside of him, but only the outside was changed and the same evil was on the inside and he had no relationship with Christ.

    13″Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

    And because this man had not allowed his heart to be changed he was not in true relationship with God and was left out!

    14″For many are invited, but few are chosen.”

    Many or Cosmos are invited, God does the choosing, we are worth 1/99th of what a lost person is worth in Jesus eyes because he left the 99 to find the 1. That makes the elect less important then those who are lost. Yet what I see the elect doing is declaring itself to be more valuable then the lost and doing everything it can to make sure those who are lost stay that way.

    How is that of God?

  171. On October 28, 2008 at 8:41 am churchesofchrist Said:

    I believe that God really is the only one who has 100% ability to make that call

    – you really dont believe this WIL. What about Mormans? JW’s? Other cults? We have one man here in town who believes he can have more than one wife and he left his first wife for a teenage girl…and now looking for another teenage girl. He is in his 50’s and preaches on TV ( WELL DID ) and has many followers. Is he saved?

    And I say it again, we do not know completely what is in the hearts of others, while I may see something as in error, I also know that God is the only perfect judge because he is the only one who knows completely what is in the heart of one of his creations.

    I realize what you are doing by the examples, it is old CoC methodology at work. I guess I should ask about the pharisees also since they knew all the Book as it was written at the time yet they missed Christ, how is that possible?

    It’s possible because knowledge itself does nothing, following a pattern does nothing, it only cleans the outside and gives you an appearance of Godliness, but on the inside that is where the real change happens. If you are using tricks and traps to snare and cause others to fall, have you really learned anything from the text you memorize as a weapon?

    If there is no change on the inside and no fruits to show for it, how are you and different then the Mormon’s or pharisees?

    Like it or not we are NOT God, period.

    1 Peter 4:8Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.

    I would not underestimate the above passage to influence the outcome of things you assume are true about others, nor should I.

  172. WIL, my point was that MANY will seek God through other avenues other than what is prescribed and it is these who will say “Lord, Lord” and Jesus will say “ depart from me…I NEVER knew you. These MANY think they are saved….somehow these MANY missed the rightaway….the right road…the narrow road….. who could this MANY be? What MANY would fall into this class of thinking they are saved? Once you figure that out…another question: Who are the few?

    There are over 40,000 denominations in the world all claiming to be on the narrow road……..well Jesus makes it clear….FEW will there be on the narrow road….

  173. there are 6 billion people alive today, many are called, 6 billion who are alive today, that is according to John 3:16.

    Compared to 6 billion, a few could be a million or 100 million or even a billion.

    Or we can go with the local version of about 100-300 people in the local area are the few, and the rest of the world isn’t including most other CoCers.

    Of course one of us could declare ourselves the few and have church alone by declaring all others to not hold to all the rules and meet in a home and give a Holy Kiss to…. no wait needs to be at least 2 people to keep all the new laws perfectly so we can prove ourselves right and condemn all the world to hell in the process while Satan cheers us onward!

  174. a few souls were saved in Noahs day – wonder how many were alive on earth during the flood?

    again – Jesus is not talking about saved people vs. the lost people when he says few there be that find the narrow road. He is speaking about the saved vs. those who THINK they are saved. The MANY are not the entire world of people, but those whom profess to be saved. The few are those who really are saved. The entire world doesnt say Lord, Lord…its those who live their lives thinking they are saved who come to Christ saying Lord, Lord…and Jesus says “I NEVER knew you”. The few are those who are on the narrow road – now tell me why few ( those really saved )are on the narrow road and many ( those who think they are saved ) on the broad road.

  175. On October 28, 2008 at 12:34 pm churchesofChrist Said:

    My yahoo and other accounts are set up to map/store IP’s, but I see no need to provide them. If James said that – oh well. If he didn’t – oh well.

    well…….if he did then ……. that seems like….
    possably …….maybe………a lie.
    and what does the bible say?………about liars
    lee

  176. On October 28, 2008 at 12:41 pm churchesofChrist Said:

    Btw, if you teach or believe in the rapture, most church of Christ folk would consider you to be teaching false doctrine…and to Johnny’s credit, he would say you are hell bound for holding the rapture view…not many are bold enough to say what they really believe…least, Johnny lays it out for everyone to see….

    i believe in the pre trib rapture.
    no surprise there.
    did you know john says that lucifer is not satan?
    what else would you like to know?
    lee

  177. If you are referring to Isaiah 14, I will agree with Johnny. Lucifer is not Satan. The subject of Isaiah 14 is the “King of Babylon” and he is not a “type of Satan.” The Lord is telling Israel through the prophet Isaiah that a time will come when the cruel yoke of Babylon will be lifted from the national shoulders. The proper name “Lucifer” is not in the original Hebrew text. In Hebrew “Lucifer, son of the morning” is helel ben shachar. It could be translated “Shining one, son of the dawn.” It is not a proper name, but an epithet for the king of Babylon. The subject of the chapter is the king of Babylon, whom God is about to punish.

  178. Believing in the rapture and pretrib is one thing, but proving it is quite another. The rapture was never ever taught until John Nelson Darby, a 19th-century theologian made it known. Margaret Macdonald received what she called visions and revelations while she was very sick and they occurred sometime between February 1 and April 14, 1830..before this time, the rapture doctrine never not once was taught. John Darby met with Margaret and from there he began to preach the rapture and today we have many following this – not even knowing where it came from.

  179. BTW, during the first 500 years of the Church, the only time you really see any claim to tongue speaking are the followers of Montanist, who was branded a heretic. The next time any significant tongue speaking arises is in the late 17th century.

  180. I think one problem today is we often hold to tradition or things we have been taught and do so without investigation. Many today believe Lucifer to be Satan and they hold to this without even studying this out themselves. Same could be said about the rapture – we grow up hearing all of the stories…hearing about how Jesus will come back…leave for 7 years and during this time the Anti-Christ will rise to power and then a mark will be given to those who side with the Anti-Christ and those who somehow hold out until the end will get a second chance. Jesus then comes back in His glory to live and reign for 1000 years…but, does scripture really teach all of this??

  181. I agree Lucifer is not Satan. I am reading an interesting book called History of Christianity by Paul Johnson, he seems to take a different approach on some of the aspects of history. I will note there is little reference to CoC in the book. And he seems to focus on the differences of the Council and Paul siting the destruction of Jerusalem as one of the major reasons Christianity took the course it did.

    It is worth the time spent reading. It was published in 1976 I believe so its cometary stops in 1975.

  182. WIL, I admire your willingness to dig deep and study things out. I wish more would do this and not just take their preachers word on things. We still may draw different conclusions on various topics and we both will be wrong and right on various topics…..but we should still dig deep and still discuss our differences. I don’t know of anyone in the coC who holds my view of 1 John 1:9…I am convinced that John was not giving a formula to stay cleanse of sin i.e., our confessing every sin, but confronting the Gnostics and those who were confused about sin as well other things. If John meant we are to confess every single sin to be in the light, we would be going back and forth from light to darkness, meaning we would be lost ( in the dark ) when we sin, saved again when we confess sins ( in the light ). And what if we miss a sin and not confess it…….in the dark we go.

  183. 1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
    2(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
    3That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
    John was addressing a particular group of people here and verse 3 tells us that those he was addressing were NOT those in fellowship with them. John is confronting the Gnostics and others outside of the knowledge of Christ who didn’t believe Jesus was God in the flesh, so John proclaims he seen him and touched him, meaning he wasn’t just a Spirit, but of flesh too.
    4And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
    5This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
    6If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
    True Christians don’t claim to be in the light and walk in darkness. The Gnostics thought they were in the light.
    7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
    Those in the light have continual cleansing, seeing Jesus is our advocate and pleads our case.
    8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
    Again, Christians don’t make this claim.
    9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
    If they admit they are sinners, He is faithful and just to forgive their sins.
    10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
    Again, Christians don’t claim to have not sinned, they come to God because they know they have sinned.

  184. On October 27, 2008 at 9:26 pm Rick Said:
    I find it sad that a church group would spend two weeks trying to prove itself to the community by tearing down others in the community instead of preaching the good news of the gospel of Christ.

    Rick,
    The Church of Christ does not have to prove itself,you can actually read about us in the bible;
    Mt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
    Ac 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
    Ro 16:16 Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you.

    And we do preach the “good news” which is the gospel of Jesus Christ unlike the “baptist church” we do teach this; Ro 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
    4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

    But you all teach “faith only” and reject the whole counsel of God.
    Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
    Lu 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.
    31 And the Lord said, Whereunto then shall I liken the men of this generation? and to what are they like?
    32 They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another, and saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned to you, and ye have not wept.
    33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil.
    34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!
    35 But wisdom is justified of all her children.

  185. Word wrote:
    The Church of Christ does not have to prove itself,you can actually read about us in the bible;

    Funny you don’t type like a person who is almost 2000 years old!?!?

    I believe you might want to rethink that statement, it is way to lose to be a CoC style comment! 😉

  186. On October 28, 2008 at 5:28 am churchesofChrist Said:

    – I just love how often people come on here using “fake names”. Oh well…I will just play along

    Ro 2:1 ¶ Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

  187. Denominational Prayer:

    Dear Lord Jesus, I know you said we should address our prayers to the Father but lately it seems He is not listening, There is a group of Christians here that are members of the Church of Christ who claim that you did not want all this division that we have created. Lord Jesus, I am the “reverend” here and I implore you that you put a stop to this kind of teaching, they are saying things like we are not born sinners and that we did not inherit Adam’s sin and Lord even though we know according to 1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. this kind of teaching is just not lining up with all of our creeds, caticisms, and confessions of faith. Lord we do thank you for what you did for us and we hold a special memory service sometimes four times a year if it doesn’t conflict with our band practice,yard sales, stew and bake sales, car washes, christmas plays,halloween partys or the anniversary for the first lady, who by the way preached a sermon last week that you would be proud of even though it says in 1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. She had everybody in here filled with the holy ghost, shouting, jumping up and down dancing and speaking in tongues and Lord I know that Paul said speaking by inspiration in 1Co 14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order. But let me tell you when that spirit hit me with all that loud music playing I just couldn’t control myself.
    Lord the Church of Christ here says that we are not supposed to tithe today but I don’t know how they expect me to pay for my new bentley and my multi-million dollar house. Lord Jesus, please be with sister Blanch as she has been diagnosed with lung cancer, we told her ten years ago that she needed to cut back on her smoking, as matter of fact last year when I gave her a carton of her favorite cigarettes for her birthday I told her not to smoke more than one pack per day, oh well we’re just thankful that she has accepted you in her heart to be her personal savior and she says now when she does smoke she does it in your name, Hallelujah, thank you Lord Jesus, hallelujah,kookaburra.
    Lord Jesus we pray for this nation as our election is drawing near and since we are not supposed to judge anyone we hope the best man wins even if he is in favor of killing innocent children and legalizing same sex marriage he says he is a Christian. Lord we pray also for the Church of Christ that they would expand their minds and feel your presense and become more like the world as we are instead of simply obeying your written word and warning those that do not, we don’t know where they got this kind of teaching for we know you would not call anyone a hypocrite or warn others of false teachers. Lord Jesus we also pray for the fund raising party tonight that is being held at Joe’s pub for poor Lutherwho is in need of a liver transplant, we’re so thankful to the owner who has agreed to give half of the beer sales to us and in turn we will give half to Luther’s family and the other half will go to the building fund for we just found out that the methodist church down the street added a new gym to their building and we are planning to add one twice the size of theirs. Lord we pray you will be with our widows again this year, we know many of them live in drafty old houses without much heat and are on fixed incomes but we know if they keep paying their tithes you will see them through another winter, again thank you for all the material blessings you give us, Amen, hallelujah,Amen.

    P.S. Lord we pray that you would please correct the misprint in your word for we teach that we are saved by “faith only” but your word says in Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Amen

  188. Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you.”

    Until the two “preachers” with the so-called “Church of Christ” kiss each other in holy salutation live on WGSR, it cannot be conclusively proven that they represent the “Church of Christ” as defined by the Bible.

  189. Two thumbs up for that “word”.

    Maybe your prayer will be: Lord Jesus, thank you for allowing the church of Christ folk to understand the bible far better than all others, even though behind closed doors we have our disagreements, but we can just call them expedients or matters of judgment, because we are nothing like them bad’o denominational people. Thank you for the TV program that we often use to attack the bad denominational people. Thank you for the beautiful church sign we have on the lawn outside, but it isn’t a sign like those denominational folk use. Thank you for allowing us to grow in the word and learn as we grow, and thank you for understanding that sometimes we agree to disagree about certain passages but still we walk together. Thank you for assigning Sunday as the day we should give money and not like some of them denominational folk helping the hungry by giving on Wednesday. We know we should and must walk in the pattern of Sunday giving and strictly we are to adhere to that pattern. Again Lord, thank you for allowing our knowledge to be on equal ground as you meant the word to be. Thank you Lord for the water, so that we might gain entry into your kingdom, too bad them Baptist folk aren’t smart as we are, maybe they would understand this better if they were like us. I know they get baptized because they have faith in Jesus, but they don’t understand Baptism as we do Lord and this prevents them from your kingdom, even though they have faith in your Son. Thank you that we are not like them. Please remember Johnny as he takes his camera into the next denominational church and Lord give us some good footage that we might attract some to the show. As Johnny says “provoke them” and Lord I will also call them Cowards like Johnny does and I do this in your name Lord, so that I can defeat and destroy these denominational people. Again Lord, thank you for allowing me and my brethren to have an understanding that others do not.

  190. Chris! Welcome back to the blog.

    The holy kiss (or lack of practice thereof) is only one of many ways that the local cofC doesn’t resemble the 1st century church as they claim. They could holy kiss until their cheeks chafe, and I still wouldn’t be convinced.

    Besides, if they took the time to kiss each other on the air it would take precious time away from their telling everyone else why they are wrong. Look at word’s recent comment as a prime example.

  191. Let’s see 500 an hour that’s 8.33 a minute, say 15 seconds to prepare and deliver the kiss, maybe 45 seconds to explain it, so call it a minute or 8 bucks roughly.

    I wonder if someone could time the amount of money spent setting up stumbling blocks for others, it would be nice to see how much of God’s money was being used for unauthorized work?

    Now I have an interesting question, how is it that Jesus told us to forgive 70 times 7 but the events in Acts 5 show us two people who sin and die for it. Now I realize the terms used were lie to the Holy Spirit etc. but still it would appear that forgiveness and the words Jesus spoke to the disciples did not apply to the two people who lied about how much the land had sold for.

    It would seem that Peter and or the Holy Spirit had forgotten the Words Jesus spoke about forgiving debts. So how to the parable about the unmerciful servant and the words on forgiving 70 times 7 can coexist with the events in Acts 5?

  192. On October 29, 2008 at 2:17 pm walkinginlove Said:
    It would seem that Peter and or the Holy Spirit had forgotten the Words Jesus spoke about forgiving debts. So how to the parable about the unmerciful servant and the words on forgiving 70 times 7 can coexist with the events in Acts 5?

    Even upon taking their last breath they would not repent.
    Are you going to wait til your dying breath?
    There is such a thing as waiting to late.

  193. On October 29, 2008 at 2:50 pm word Said:

    There is such a thing as waiting to late.

    – Maybe Jesus ( God in the flesh ) should have told that to the dying thief.

  194. On October 29, 2008 at 2:53 pm churchesofChrist Said:
    – Maybe Jesus ( God in the flesh ) should have told that to the dying thief.

    Is the thief on the cross your example for salvation?
    Did the thief on the cross believe that Jesus died was buried and rose the third day? NOooo! Had Jesus’s new will went into effect? NOoooo! besides this what makes you think that the thief was not a disciple of Christ who had already been baptized and was serving time for the sins he had committed, after all he did call Jesus Lord, he knew Jesus had not committed any sins Himself and he knew that He was to enter into a kingdom.

    Lu 23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
    42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

    Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
    17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

  195. I waiting on that reply from you word. No, the thief isnt my example, but Jesus sure sets an example of His love and grace, doesn’t he? Maybe we should focus upon Jesus and not the thief…I am also quite aware of the other verses and agree. My point is that Jesus demonstrated His love to the dying thief…I wont play God and say He cant do that again….you can if you like, but I refuse to say God cant act in that form of love again…

  196. oh lord i thank thee that i have been granted the true
    understanding of your word.
    and that im not as the one who believes that you will rapture him out of this world.
    thank thee oh lord that you told me of the king of tyre
    and that i didnt make the same mistake as lee.
    i know that he isnt as well read as myself and only does
    as he is told.
    please, if it is possible make him as myself.

    awwwwwww rasberries…………..
    lee

  197. On October 29, 2008 at 3:20 pm churchesofChrist Said:
    Maybe we should focus upon Jesus and not the thief.

    acoc,
    who brought up the thief in the first place?
    you all sure like to chase rabbits.

    On October 29, 2008 at 2:53 pm churchesofChrist Said:

    – Maybe Jesus ( God in the flesh ) should have told that to the dying thief.

  198. On October 29, 2008 at 3:20 pm churchesofChrist Said:

    I wont play God and say He cant do that again….you can if you like, but I refuse to say God cant act in that form of love again…

    acoc, you don’t have to “play God” to understand this.
    Mr 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

  199. On October 29, 2008 at 2:50 pm word Said:

    On October 29, 2008 at 2:17 pm walkinginlove Said:
    It would seem that Peter and or the Holy Spirit had forgotten the Words Jesus spoke about forgiving debts. So how to the parable about the unmerciful servant and the words on forgiving 70 times 7 can coexist with the events in Acts 5?

    Even upon taking their last breath they would not repent.
    Are you going to wait til your dying breath?
    There is such a thing as waiting to late.

    There is, but this was not the question I asked. It would seem they died, but did they go to hell? There is nothing about their fate in Acts 5, but we assume they did for their lying to God.

    But you did not answer the question, Jesus said

    Mathew 6:12Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.

    Matthew 6:15But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

    But if we conclude that this was a sin against the Holy Spirit then this applies:

    Matthew 12: 31And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

    33″Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit.

    So the only way Peter’s actions could be within the teachings of Jesus is if the lying was to the Holy Spirit and God along with Peter considered it blasphemy.

    The only other passages I could consider to play a part in this event would be the binding and losing passage in Matthew 16:19

    “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

    So either Peter considered in Blasphemy or he was covered under the Matthew 16:19.

    Since the person using the name word did not answer my question but attempted and it appears successfully to divert the conversation to something else I decided he either could not or would not answer the real question I asked and that was how did the events in Acts 5 comply with Jesus focus on forgiveness of others.

    As for the diversion, waiting to repent is something I did for a long time, just because a man does not recognize my repentance does not concern me, I will answer to God and not man for my life as will you.

    Word your people continue to act as Apostles but have no authority to do so, your self proclaiming of being the only ones holding to the truth but showing that you yourself have exceptions to the things you consider unimportant, prove you do not hold the commands completely. You are so focused on washing the outside of the cup to prove your doctrine is correct you have not allowed the inside of the cup to be washed by the Holy Spirit. Thus others like myself watch JR and see his tricks and his false statements to callers and the faults in his preaching in an attempt to take down denominations. A perfect example is his teaching on the disciples stopping the man who was casting out demons in Jesus name because he was not one of them. At first it looked like sound teaching but after examining the reality of the situation I have concluded that he was biased and driven by his bitter roots, that man should have had a second person with him if he was one of the 72 who were sent out as the second group, secondly if my boss tells me to go and do something and another questions my actions I invoke the authority who gave me the order to do the action, the man does not tell them anything about Jesus saying go and do it. Thus because there is not a second person and Jesus does not come up in the dialog with the 12 I have to conclude he is not one of the 72, thus JR taught falsely based on CoC doctrine.

    So as your people condemn others for false teachings you do the same in your body to prove your doctrine, thus you are nothing more or less then another denomination who is looking to grow your organization. But you also condemn people to hell over those differences and thus you open yourselves to reaping that hypocritical judgment. So the bottom line is someone will go to hell, if you are right all others except the few in your local bodies of believers will go or if you are wrong all those who claimed to be keeping the commands but were in fact failing also will suffer the judgement they gave to others. Thus Satan wins either way because he takes part of the people who believe in Jesus Christ as the only way to God the father, what a sad day it will be for all involved!

    You just seem more willing to create an environment where others will be offended and not turn to God. That elect mentality as made you forget that Jesus left the 99 to find the one who was lost. We have less value to God saved because we are no longer in danger of the second death, but those who are still lost are and thus they must be reached.

  200. On October 29, 2008 at 3:08 pm word Said:

    On October 29, 2008 at 2:53 pm churchesofChrist Said:
    – Maybe Jesus ( God in the flesh ) should have told that to the dying thief.

    Is the thief on the cross your example for salvation?

    No it is a Bible example of salvation through faith in Jesus.

    Did the thief on the cross believe that Jesus died was buried and rose the third day? NOooo!

    If I say remember me when you enter into your kingdom I am not thinking you are going to be dead am I? I am thinking you will not die but somehow be alive when you enter that kingdom! So be believes Jesus will be alive after his death on the cross!

    Had Jesus’s new will went into effect? NOoooo!

    This is false teaching the veal tore after Jesus dies, that was the signal that the relationship between God and man had changed. His sacrifice was the start of the new relationship with God through his blood. Otherwise the time between the veal tearing and Pentecost would be a no mans land of covenant for the Jews.

    besides this what makes you think that the thief was not a disciple of Christ who had already been baptized and was serving time for the sins he had committed, after all he did call Jesus Lord, he knew Jesus had not committed any sins Himself and he knew that He was to enter into a kingdom.

    Lu 23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
    42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

    You see only in part, the reason the thief knows he is a King is simple there was a sign and some conversations about that sign that he could have easily been able to hear. Secondly he heard them call Jesus the Son of God and mocked him and he did not respond in anger, thus there is enough information put to the Thief for him to take Jesus actions and the things they were saying about him to heart and with no other options open to call upon the name of the Lord. “Remember me when you enter into your Kingdom”

    It is only your bias of your doctrine that would lead you to conclude he was a follower of Jesus or had been baptized. There is no record of that happening, there is a record of him hearing what was said at the cross.

    Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
    17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

    Jesus died on the cross, that is his death, this passage actually confirms the veal as the signal of the testament coming into action, you have proven it yourself with your own quote!! Jesus death is the signal of the new relationship and the veal tearing confirms it.

    Why can you not see that? Why are you blind to that?

  201. Word,

    Here’s some Scripture verses for you to consider:
    “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.” (Mark 16:16)

    “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.” (John 3:36)

    “I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins.” (John 8:24)

    All of these Scriptures tell us that if you do not believe in Jesus you will not be saved. Now, you show me a Bible verse that proclaims that if I am not baptized I will not be saved.

  202. Word, here’s another thought for you:

    Notice that the New Testament specifically says that unbelievers are condemned (see for example Revelation 21:8), but it never says that the unbaptized are condemned. The New Testament sometimes refers to Christians as “the believers” (as in 1 Timothy 4:12), and it sometimes refers to the unsaved as “unbelievers” (as in Revelation 21:8), but the New Testament never refers to Christians as “the baptized,” and it never refers to the unsaved as “the unbaptized.” New Testament pattern? hmmmmm

  203. On October 29, 2008 at 3:35 pm word Said:
    On October 29, 2008 at 3:20 pm churchesofChrist Said:

    Maybe we should focus upon Jesus and not the thief.

    – No, I brought up Jesus showing mercy the thief – you just done as most and focused on the theif.

  204. On October 29, 2008 at 3:35 pm word Said:
    On October 29, 2008 at 3:20 pm churchesofChrist Said:
    Maybe we should focus upon Jesus and not the thief.

    acoc,
    who brought up the thief in the first place?
    you all sure like to chase rabbits.

    – btw, I love how you guys keeo addressing me as ( acoc ) as if this is my blog. Nice try, but we all know on here who is …

  205. Wow, I slip away for a few days (been working a lot) and a lot happens!!

    “word” sounds very much like someone who has been here before…same arguments, same wording, same verses-and with a very off base, egotistical, opinionated prayer. Yet, still missing the point of who Christ is and why He came.

    Rick, I completely AGREE with your statement: “I find it sad that a church group would spend two weeks trying to prove itself to the community by tearing down others in the community instead of preaching the good news of the gospel of Christ.”

    Hope you are all doing well 🙂

  206. On October 29, 2008 at 9:37 pm Rick Said:
    All of these Scriptures tell us that if you do not believe in Jesus you will not be saved. Now, you show me a Bible verse that proclaims that if I am not baptized I will not be saved.

    Mr 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

    1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

    Mt 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
    22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
    8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

    Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

    1Pe 3:21 ¶ The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

    Rick the baptist,
    I know you would like to rewrite this to read “baptism doth also NOT save us” but the fact is that which is perfect is come and it will judge us in the last day.

    Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

    Rick,
    Does a person have to be in the Baptist church to be saved?

  207. On October 29, 2008 at 9:43 pm Rick Said:

    Notice that the New Testament specifically says that unbelievers are condemned (see for example Revelation 21:8), but it never says that the unbaptized are condemned.

    Rick the baptist,
    Are you confirming that the devils are not condemned?

    Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

  208. On October 29, 2008 at 9:43 pm Rick Said:

    The New Testament sometimes refers to Christians as “the believers” (as in 1 Timothy 4:12),

    Yes it does Rick, but The New Testament Never, ever, ever, never Never refers to Christians as “baptist”,”methodists”,”catholics”,”mormons”,”jehovah witnesses”, etc. etc. etc. But it does warn against those that teach such doctrines.

    Ga 1:6 ¶ I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
    7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
    8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

    2Jo 1:10 ¶ If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
    11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

    Rick the baptist,
    Would you allow a woman preacher from the methodist church come and preach in your church the mode of sprinkling for baptism, or would you allow a woman to preach in your church?

  209. On October 30, 2008 at 3:49 pm word Said:

    On October 29, 2008 at 9:43 pm Rick Said:

    Notice that the New Testament specifically says that unbelievers are condemned (see for example Revelation 21:8), but it never says that the unbaptized are condemned.

    Rick the baptist,
    Are you confirming that the devils are not condemned?

    They are not marked with God’s mark of the Holy Spirit, so devils be they human or angelic in origin that are not marked with God’s Seal therefore are not of God.

    2 Cor 1:21Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

    Eph 1:13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

    Eph 4:29Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. 30And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice.

    No seal no salvation, are demons marked with his seal?

    Are all mothers saved?

    1 Tim 2:15But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

  210. Word,

    Mark 16:16, John 3:36 John 8:24 All of these Scriptures tell us that if you do not believe in Jesus you will not be saved. Now, you show me a Bible verse that proclaims that if I am not baptized I will not be saved. Since You have not given me one, Word, I will assume that you can’t.

    Word, you quoted: Mr 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Well, I’ve believed and I’ve been baptized… so that makes me a part of THE Church of Christ, just like you..so brother in Christ shut up and greet me with a holy kiss!

  211. Word asked, Rick the baptist,
    Would you allow a woman preacher from the methodist church come and preach in your church the mode of sprinkling for baptism, or would you allow a woman to preach in your church?

    Since I do not want to be accused of not answering…No I do not accept sprinkling as the mode of baptism and Yes I would allow a woman to preach.

    And thanks for calling me Rick the Baptist..puts me in good company with John the Baptist.

  212. Re: “Word’s” prayer above

    Where have I heard this kind of thing before?

    “11The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.” Luke 18:11-12

  213. On October 30, 2008 at 3:29 pm Katherine Said:
    Rick, I completely AGREE with your statement:

    Katherine,
    You completely AGREE with Rick’s statement.

    So you must just halfway AGREE with God’s statements,

    Jer 1:10 See, I have this day set thee over the nations and over the kingdoms, to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to throw down, to build, and to plant.

    Mt 21:12 ¶ And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
    13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.

    Ga 1:6 ¶ I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
    7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
    8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
    9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

    Katherine and Rick say “You know what Paul, its sad the way you tear down all these other doctrines and speak bad about them warning people that they will not profit nor deliver them”

    1Ti 1:3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,

    Katherine and Rick say ” Paul you shouldn’t tell Timothy that, he will probably go and teach it to someone else and we won’t ever have all the chaos that the devil wants.”

    Mt 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

    Katherine and Rick say, “Jesus, It’s sad that you talk to them like that, we heard them say the sinners prayer and one of them is a reverend in the methodist church.”

  214. Randy Wrote:

    “Where in history can I find the teachings of the church of Christ during this time period?”

    That is an excellent question, and something I have never ever received a quality answer to.

    Word,

    Care to field this one for us?

  215. “Word” or person masking as T.D. or one of JR’s lemmings…

    Thank you, but Rick and I can most definitely speak for ourselves…

    You have convinced yourselves that what you are doing is for the glory of God-by deceiving and manipulating others who you THINK are not part of the Body of Christ because they have not come to the same conclusions as you. But, we know the truth and know that you don’t need TV shows trying to defeat and destroy everyone else, hidden cameras to try and use what people have said, and whatever other evil devices you guys think you can come up with, justify, and claim it is all in Jesus’ name-which is all in VAIN.

    Truth will ALWAYS stand alone-it needs no manipulation or twisting as you guys are doing.

    Ya’ll must be running out of material, so JR sent you to do some blogging.

    If only you could actually wrap your heads and heart around the love of Christ-everything would change.

  216. On October 30, 2008 at 4:05 pm word Said:

    Ga 1:6 ¶ I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
    7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
    8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

    2Jo 1:10 ¶ If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
    11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

    – word, how about going back and getting the context of each verse you stated. What was the “another gospel” Paul was talking about in Gal? What Doctrine was John speaking of? You can not take verses at will and make them fit your POV – thats adding to the word.

  217. On October 30, 2008 at 4:53 pm word Said:

    On October 30, 2008 at 3:29 pm Katherine Said:
    Rick, I completely AGREE with your statement:

    Katherine,
    You completely AGREE with Rick’s statement.

    So you must just halfway AGREE with God’s statements,

    Jer 1:10 See, I have this day set thee over the nations and over the kingdoms, to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to throw down, to build, and to plant.

    You are not an Old Testament Church thus the passage does not apply to you word!

    Mt 21:12 ¶ And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
    13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.

    You are not Jesus, in the chain of command Jesus was above them and able to make a perfect call, you are not the master word you are a servant like all the rest of us.

    Ga 1:6 ¶ I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

    I find it interesting that someone who would quote a passage about Grace and at the same idea have no knowledge of its meaning, truly a blind guide attempting to lead.

    7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
    8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
    9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

    Secondly this applies to those who would convert us back to a Judaic version of Christianity. In this instance it is speaking of the old Jewish ways, but in many ways your forcing Levitical practices on gentiles has much in common with what Paul was fighting against! The irony of your choice is amazing!

    Katherine and Rick say “You know what Paul, its sad the way you tear down all these other doctrines and speak bad about them warning people that they will not profit nor deliver them”

    I agree with them and the sadness is brought on because while you do these things you are exactly like what you condemn! And because you have staked salvation itself on those things, you are risking your own salvation! Reaping a judgment at a salvation level will cost you your salvation.

    1Ti 1:3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,

    Katherine and Rick say ” Paul you shouldn’t tell Timothy that, he will probably go and teach it to someone else and we won’t ever have all the chaos that the devil wants.”

    Perhaps you should spend some time breaking the books up and looking at the differences in them when jewish believers and gentiles are being spoken to, there is a difference of focus.

    Mt 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

    Katherine and Rick say, “Jesus, It’s sad that you talk to them like that, we heard them say the sinners prayer and one of them is a reverend in the methodist church.”

    Ah yes the sinners prayer, not in the bible.

    Romans 10:17 Hear the word – People have heard the word before the sinners prayer is done.

    John 3:36 – Believe jesus is who he said he was, and if they did not they would not be praying!

    Confess his name before men Romans 10:9-10 – Lord I am a sinner us usually the start of a prayer of this type, thus confessing his name. OR Jesus I am a sinner. Or father God I have sinned… all confess God, if you want to pick that apart then we can talk about Peter’s baptism vs. Jesus statement of how to do it!

    Luke 3:13 repent – I am a sinner and have broken your laws is part of the prayer.

    Finally Baptism in CoC pratices that would only be in Acts 2:38 but we also know that Jesus said a different form if you allow Matthew 28:19 to stand, but jesus also spoke of Spiritual Baptism. Cornelius was saved before Peter arrival, otherwise how is his prayers heard by God?

    The sinner’s prayer is a summation of the steps of salvation, except the Levitical practice of water cleansing before a sacrifice. Cornelius was baptized to keep uniformity. You can’t have the gifts of the Spirit without having the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the seal of salvation.

    So how is it that you strain all other pratices done by other church bodies but you ignore that Peter did not Baptize as Jesus said to do in Matthew 28:19?

    Why if someone was baptizing as in Matthew 28:19 I am sure they would be invalid would they not? But then that begs the question, how is the servant (Peter) greater then the Master (Jesus)?

  218. Oh I took the passages from a CoC site and did not check them so if they are wrong it is a CoC site.

    Also Jesus summerized the 10 commandments down to two, I see the sinners prayer as a summation of the things done for salvation.

  219. On October 30, 2008 at 4:32 pm Rick Said:
    And thanks for calling me Rick the Baptist..puts me in good company with John the Baptist.
    Obviously you are talking about John Smyth, founder of the baptist church you are in (1607)

    How about Rick the methodist?
    Rick the jehovah witness?
    Rick the Mormon?
    Rick the catholic?
    Rick the pentecostal?

  220. On October 30, 2008 at 4:20 pm Rick Said:
    Word, you quoted: Mr 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Well, I’ve believed and I’ve been baptized… so that makes me a part of THE Church of Christ, just like you..so brother in Christ shut up and greet me with a holy kiss!

    Rick, you do not believe that baptism is “for the remission of sins” nor do you teach this therefore you just got wet.
    Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
    Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

    No one was ever added to a baptist church or any other kind of church after obeying the gospel in the new testament.
    Face it Rick, The Church of Christ is the “one body”
    Don’t be like Pharaoh.

  221. On October 30, 2008 at 4:54 pm DMH Said:
    Randy Wrote:

    “Where in history can I find the teachings of the church of Christ during this time period?”

    HOLY BIBLE

  222. One Lord who is Jesus Christ.
    One faith which is that we believe that God sent His Son Jesus to save us.
    One baptism which is the baptism of the Holy Spirit that Jesus baptizes us with, not water that man baptizes with. As John the Baptist said, “There comes One after me who is mightier than I, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to stoop down and loose. I indeed baptize you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

  223. On November 1, 2008 at 11:55 am Truth Said:
    One baptism which is the baptism of the Holy Spirit that Jesus baptizes us with, not water that man baptizes with. As John the Baptist said, “There comes One after me who is mightier than I, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to stoop down and loose. I indeed baptize you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

    He was talking to the Apostles truth. not you

    Ac 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

    And they were;
    Ac 2:1 ¶ And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
    2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
    3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
    4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

    Also notice here Peter says “the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.”
    Ac 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
    16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
    17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

    Why didn’t he say they received the Holy Ghost just like those we baptized yesterday or last week?
    Because Jesus is the one that baptized them with the Holy Spirit and that to confirm to Peter and the Apostles that the gentiles were to receieve the gospel.
    If you reject water baptism for the remission of sins you have not been baptized according to the Holy Spirit much less with the Holy Spirit.

    Are we going to hear about you on the six o-clock news this evening healing all the people in the danville hospital?

    Mr 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
    18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

  224. On November 1, 2008 at 12:33 pm Truth Said:
    The thief on the cross wasn’t baptized with water nor did he speak in tongues and Jesus saved him.

    Can you prove that the thief was not baptized with water?

  225. You said we shouldn’t celebrate the birth of Christ because the Bible doesn’t actually say celebrate, though the bible shows us that the wise men and the shepherds celebrated His birth with praise and worship, but the bible never shows the thief on the cross being baptized with water so according to your own rules you should not say that he was.

  226. On November 1, 2008 at 12:43 pm answeringchurchofchrist Said:
    word,

    Are you suggesting that the thief was baptized with water?

    acoc,
    Are you saying that the thief was not baptized?

  227. On November 1, 2008 at 11:55 am Truth Said:
    One baptism which is the baptism of the Holy Spirit that Jesus baptizes us with, not water that man baptizes with. As John the Baptist said, “There comes One after me who is mightier than I, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to stoop down and loose. I indeed baptize you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

    He was talking to the Apostles truth. not you

    “Then Jerusalem, all of Judea, and all the region around the Jordan went out to him and were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins.

    John the Baptist was speaking to more than just the apostles. And I believe the Bible is to teach us also.

  228. He was talking to the Apostles truth. not you

    Sorry, should have read “about the Apostles” and of coarse the house of cornelius.

  229. On November 1, 2008 at 12:44 pm Truth Said:
    You said we shouldn’t celebrate the birth of Christ because the Bible doesn’t actually say celebrate, though the bible shows us that the wise men and the shepherds celebrated His birth with praise and worship,

    And where does it say that this was on Dec. 25?

  230. Jesus and His diciples were not there until after John the Baptist preached this to the people he was already baptizing. So who was he speaking to and about when he said: “I indeed baptize you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

  231. Ac 8:5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.

    Ac 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
    Ac 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

    no truth,
    Why were Peter and John sent to Sameria?
    And how did they receive the Holy Ghost?

    Ac 8:14 ¶ Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
    15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
    16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
    17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

  232. When John the Baptist was preaching this to the people there he didn’t say He will baptize the Apostles with the Holy Spirit he said He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.

  233. un truth,
    Why couldn’t Philip lay hands on them?
    Did he not have the Holy Spirit?

    Ac 8:6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.

  234. On November 1, 2008 at 1:38 pm Truth Said:
    When John the Baptist was preaching this to the people there he didn’t say He will baptize the Apostles with the Holy Spirit he said He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.

    And some of these did indeed receive the Holy Spirit but not all.

    Lu 7:29 And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.
    30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.

  235. “Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.”

    Even though we do have the Holy Spirit that doesn’t mean we all have miraculous gifts such as healing.

  236. Word, Jesus saved the thief on the cross. Where does the Bible say that the thief on the cross was baptized?

  237. If someone is saved I believe they should be baptized with water. If someone doesn’t believe in Jesus as their Savior as the Pharisees definitely didn’t of course they would reject anything to do with Jesus. Being baptized does not save us but it is a way we can show our faith in Jesus.

  238. word wrote:
    “There is no evidence that he was not baptized. Do you disagree?”

    Okay, Mr. Circular Reasoning, you apparently do believe he was baptized, although there is nothing in Scripture to indicate that he was. Any attempt to say that he was baptized is stretching Scripture. Interesting, how it is not okay when you perceive others doing this, but for some reason it’s fine for you to do.

  239. On November 1, 2008 at 11:30 am word Said:

    Rick, you do not believe that baptism is “for the remission of sins” nor do you teach this therefore you just got wet.

    In my King James Version of the Holy Scriptures I have yet to find a verse that reads that I should “believe that baptism is for the remission of sins” in order to be saved. Did I miss it?

    So once again Word, Mark 16:16, John 3:36 John 8:24 All of these Scriptures tell us that if you do not believe in Jesus you will not be saved. Now, you show me a Bible verse that proclaims that if I am not baptized I will not be saved. Since You have not given me one, Word, I will assume that you can’t.

  240. This “Church of Christ” does not worship Christ.

    This “Church of Christ” worships its idea of Christ. What it demands Christ to be and what it demands Christ to be to others.

    Ergo, this “Church of Christ” worships its own doctrine. It worships itself. It worships its leaders.

    And thus, to this “Church of Christ”, Christ alone is not sufficient.

    This “Church of Christ”, the one so active in this area, cannot change and grow into what Christ would have its members become. It is, quite so, “spiritual arrested development”.

    Hence the juvenile attitude and antics of its leaders and adherents.

    Now to be fair, the condition is not peculiar to this “Church of Christ”. There are many congregations in this world who have made an idol of their doctrine, instead of seeking after Christ for His own sake.

    But it is very rare to see a congregation so devolve and deteriorate into a gutter mindset, as is symptomatic with the local “Church of Christ”.

    They are petty thugs. And nothing more.

  241. On November 1, 2008 at 2:40 pm Rick Said:
    So once again Word, Mark 16:16, John 3:36 John 8:24 All of these Scriptures tell us that if you do not believe in Jesus you will not be saved. Now, you show me a Bible verse that proclaims that if I am not baptized I will not be saved. Since You have not given me one, Word, I will assume that you can’t.

    Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    1Pe 3:21 ¶ The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

    Pharaoh,,uh I mean Rick you just can’t get baptism out of the gospel can you?

  242. Word, there is nowhere in either of these verses that says that if you are not baptized you are condemned, as Rick asked you to show. 1Pet 3:21 does show baptism is a way to show our faith in God and that we want to try to be Christ like and follow His ways the answer to a good conscience and that it does not take away sins the filth of the flesh. And in the following Chapter in Acts 3:19 in Peters very next sermon he never says anything to the people there about being baptized but that they should repent, which shows that it was the repenting that saved them in Acts 2:38.

  243. On November 1, 2008 at 2:40 pm Rick Said to word:

    Now, you show me a Bible verse that proclaims that if I am not baptized I will not be saved.

    Well word?

  244. And keep in mind that Rick’s point was that there are several passages that say that you will not be saved if you don’t believe, but none that say you will not be saved if you are not baptized.

  245. Word wrote,

    “Face it Rick, The Church of Christ is the “one body”
    Don’t be like Pharaoh”

    – ????

    “Where in history can I find the teachings of the church of Christ during this time period?

    HOLY BIBLE”

    – No. At least not any way you would be familiar with.

    Not surprisingly, you have no answer.

    “There is no evidence that he was not baptized. Do you disagree?”

    – There is no evidence that infants were not baptized. Do you disagree?

    I think word might just be blowing hot air.

  246. On November 1, 2008 at 9:56 pm answeringchurchofchrist Said:
    And keep in mind that Rick’s point was that there are several passages that say that you will not be saved if you don’t believe, but none that say you will not be saved if you are not baptized.

    – Why not put all of the verses together and use as a whole? Why pick those that say believe – why not pick them all, including those that speak of baptism?

  247. On November 1, 2008 at 11:45 am word Said:

    Randy Wrote:

    “Where in history can I find the teachings of the church of Christ during this time period?”

    HOLY BIBLE

    – duh…maybe you didnt understand what I was saying…anyways, ttyl

  248. On the matter of the Thief of the Cross and baptism. It does not matter if he was, it does not matter if he was not, the fact is they saw him still alive and broke his legs, during this time or before this time Jesus died and the veal is torn open.

    The relationship with God changed at that moment ushering in the New Covenant with God. The Thief does not die until after his legs were broken to prevent him from pushing up to gain enough air to stay alive as his lungs were slowly filling with fluids.

    How is it that a man, without the Holy Spirit’s indwelling to strengthen him does not sin during the time from Jesus death and his death while in extreme pain? Go hit yourself with a hammer or go check out a book on torture and read about what happens during that time of suffering. Then come tell me you would be able to endure having your legs clubbed while already having stakes through your feet and hands/wrists! As JR says I’ll go get a grand for any man who can suffer that pain level for hours and then have that pain level increased while you slowly lose your life and see if you can keep from having a sinful thought during the process!

    The Thief entered the kingdom under the New Covenant without any merit except believe in the one who had died and was entering into his kingdom! It was not that he has been dunked or not dunked, it was not that he was without sin because he was under extreme suffering, the kind of suffering Jesus could relate to and because Jesus taught Mercy he gave mercy.

    That is how the Thief entered into the kingdom, it was not within the rules it was within the X factor of mercy.

  249. He that is registered and votes may help his candidate win, but he that is not registered shall not help.

    Wait a minute, this doesn’t say “he that is not registered and does not vote shall not help”

    Is anyone who is not registered going to vote?

    On November 1, 2008 at 5:45 pm Truth Said:
    On November 1, 2008 at 2:40 pm Rick Said to word:

    Now, you show me a Bible verse that proclaims that if I am not baptized I will not be saved.

    Mt 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

    2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

    Mt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
    20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

    Mr 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

    Ga 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
    27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

    Could this mean as many of you as have not been baptized into Christ have not put on Christ?

    Ro 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

    Could this mean so many of us as were not baptized into Jesus Christ were not baptized into his death?

    Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

    Could this mean that if you are not buried with him in baptism, you also are not risen with him through faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead?

    YES…YES…….YES.

    Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
    4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
    5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    Read carefully Ricodemus, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    This says if you are not baptized according to the scriptures for the remission of sins you will not enter the kingdom of God.

  250. okay folks here’s the deal.
    my name is ethan hickerson.
    i am the skateboarder in this article.
    skate church started in my town about 3 or so ago.
    before that,
    i’d seen it all.
    my mom is extremely RELIGIOUS.
    she took me to every kind of church out there.
    christian, catholic, muslam, buhddist, J. witness, all of that.
    i heard all the different ways that christians had made up to get across to people.
    but here’s the thing,
    though the whole skateboarding thing was cool,
    that wasn’t what DREW me to the church.
    God used the guy up there, Dennis Cavins (a big ol’ fat guy who has no intrest in skateboarding at all, so usually wouldn’t care about skateboarders) to reach all of my friends and i.
    this guy would walk into the skate park and just talk to us about Christ and love forever.
    he’d come in there with pizza’s and gatorade all of the time.
    and we’d all cuss him out.
    tell him he’s stupid.
    all of that.
    he kept coming.
    eventually we started going to church.
    and he’d invite us to his home.
    we’d come in there and wreck the place up.
    take advantage of all of his food,
    not thank him one bit,
    not give a heck about any of the God stuff he was talking about.
    but he kept caring for us.
    slowly teaching us about discipline.
    about respect.
    about God.
    none of us had the normal family.
    we came from broken homes and broken lives.
    he showed us that there are Christ followers out there who really care.
    he didn’t fake it.
    he didn’t cover the truth in candy so we’d like it more.
    im now involved in the church as an active member.
    me and about 5 other guys who started out in skate church,
    now serve more than some kids who’ve been going there their entire lives.
    im not trying to boast here guys.
    i don’t serve nearly as much as paul did.
    not even close to peter,
    or john,
    non of those guys.
    but skate church IS a good thing!
    we preach CHRIST!
    nothing else!
    there are no other roads!
    there is no other God!
    he is the way the truth and the life,
    and at skate church,
    you’re going to hear that,
    every tuesday night.
    we do bible studies at Dennis’ house.
    we are REAL with each other.
    all feeling and emotions spill,
    and we don’t leave until God has done his work in that place.
    i had no idea about the love and realness of God until skate church started.
    we didn’t conform to the world to get people in.
    our music,
    is GOSPEL!
    our teaching,
    is GOD BREATHED!
    Dennis Cavins’ serves God with every bit of him.
    anybody who meets this guy,
    knows he’s about Christ.
    that’s who he is.
    he will tell you straight up what his problems are,
    and he will never be ashamed to get on his hands and knees before God in humbleness.

    To those of you who mock the only thing i was able to call “church” for a long time,
    think about this;
    when have you stepped out of your comfort zone as far as Dennis did?
    he was so nervous his first time in the skate park that before he got out of his car,
    he cried to God.
    our church has never backed us financially,
    so all of the food,
    equipment,
    skateboards,
    ramps,
    all of it,
    has been Dennis.
    Only by God’s grace and lead was he able to do this.
    Skatechurch has saved lives.
    God moves in this place every week.
    please don’t be dissin’ God’s work.
    thank you.

  251. Wow, Ethan-man, that is awesome…and that is what I am talking about!!! What an amazing testimony-thanks so much for sharing 🙂

    I am so thankful that Dennis was able to step out of his comfort zone, and allow God to work through Him to reach you guys. That is REAL. That is RELATIONAL. That is exactly what Jesus has always been about.

    I am just blown away by what you said. I love it. I love that you are experiencing real, intentional community-not religion; but an honest relationship with Christ and each other. That is a blessing and encouragement to hear.

    We should long to be more like Dennis, allow ourselves to step out of our comfort zones, and allow God to use us wherever we are-or even places we never thought we would go.

    May we all be inspired, spurred on, and encouraged by what Ethan has just shared with us-I hope it puts everything in perspective. Thanks again, Ethan, and praise God!! 🙂

  252. Okay guys I’ve got another thing to say.

    I was reading a comment up there and one thing that was said was something like, “Hey if there’s a bowling alley, we should make a bowling church”. Now you did this to mock skate church but check this out; Skate church is a place where skateboarders are allowed to skate and not get kicked out. they can get some food in their stomachs. hang out with friends in a comfortable and safe environment. and hey to top it all of, they get to hear the word of God. the majority of the time skate church goes on for, is the message. straight outta the bible. We don’t candy-coat it to appease to the kids who come in there. One kid straight up left one time when we had a speaker talk about music. the kid was wearing something like a Slayer t-shirt or something, and the speaker happen to use Slayer as an example of whack music. we don’t play games over at skate church. no fence riding.

    think about this guys. its a place where skateboarders come and we can all hang out and talk about God. What the heck is wrong with that. Ever heard of FCA (Fellowship of Christian Athletes)? basketball, football, soccer, golf… all of those guys get together for a little while and discuss the teachings God has in his word and what he wants them to do. There’s nothing wrong with that. we impact the lives of kids in our community by showing them that you can be a skateboarder, and still know Jesus’ love. all these kids have the mentality that their supposed to be rebelious. what we do is we inform them of their purpose. being rebelious against the WORLD, not GOD! maybe you should start a bowling church. get some guys together who like to bowl, and discuss what God has in store for them. bowl a game, then have a bible study. try to help some guys grow in the faith. share your love to one another.
    be cool.

    seriously guys,
    i don’t see why you have a problem with this.
    Jesus loves us all equally.
    yo.

  253. Ethan,

    I didn’t officially welcome you after your last email, but I want to do so now. Understand that this blog LOVES what you guys are doing with “skate church”. We think that God is using the church’s leadership’s creativity to do some pretty amazing things – especially getting your friends into a relationship with Him.

    But you need to understand that this blog focuses on discussing things like this with a pretty conservative (hyperconservative – we call them) group of people who have a pretty limited view of God’s grace. They teach that they are the only ones going to heaven – that their limited interpretations of Scripture are the only valid ones. And they’d be the first to jump on “skate church” and condemn the whole lot of you to hell.

    Now, that’s a generalization – and not everyone who disagrees with “skate church” would condemn you because of it – and I can respect that. Just understand that there are some pretty nutty people who comment here from time to time, and in their minds they are the only ones who are right.

    Merry Christmas!
    Nathan

  254. I would call it a letter of the law vs spirit of the law debate, that is what it really boils down to same could be said for outside of the cup vs, the inside. If you are holding all the commands but the inside of the cup has not been cleaned its a waste of time, if you dot every i and cross every T but you have made the commands an idol of sorts and forgotten the spirit of those commands what good does it do?

    If the Skate Church is reaching lost people who would not hear the Good News otherwise then go brother go! After all by violating the letter and risking loss of salvation are you not in fact laying down your life for another? Yes you are! Because that is the Spirit of that letter, reach the lost!

    WIL

  255. Ethan, just wanted yo say Amen too. I think it’s great what God has done through this man for you guys. God Bless you and the rest of Skate Church! And Merry Christmas.

  256. I was recently told by my uncle who is a member of the Church of Christ that ,you can lose your salvation. I mentioned to him that 1st John 5:13 says ,These things have I written to you that believe on the name of Jesus that you may know that you have eternal life. So if a person recieves eternal life and loses it in 5 days, five years,500 years ,or even five million years,then it wasn’t eternal to begin with was it? What part of eternal do they not understand?

  257. Roger, the world can’t take your salvation from you but you can do so yourself because of your freewill.

    I would reread Jesus talking about the prodigal son, in the story the son was dead while he was on his own but when he returned he was alive again.

    Also in the matter of forgiveness, if our own sins forgiveness is tied to us forgiving others what happens if I decide not to forgive a small transgression like you killing my son? Granted it would be a huge debt in my eyes but still small compared to my debt I owe to God! I carry that debt you owe me to stand before God and if the story of the unmerciful servant is true God says he will hold me accountable for all my debt!

    “Forgive us as we forgive those who trespass against us”

    So if I walk in a constant state of unforgiveness towards others and die to stand before God’s judgment will I be held for my debt? My answer according to Mathew and according to the prodigal son are that I am note safe from the wages of the sin or debt I have built up, and thus suffer the results of that debt.

    I also believe that if you wager your salvation by declaring another believer unsaved for some reason you are in fact in danger of loss of salvation because of hypocritical judgment against another. God clearly states that if you judge and are doing some of the same things you will reap whatever you sowed. If you sow at a salvation level you will reap at that level!!!

    So I do not believe you can simply “get saved” and do as you wish with your life and keep that salvation, but that is my belief based on what I read in the scriptures, what do the following passages mean to you…

    Luke 11-31 (especially verse 31), Matthew 18:21-35 (especially verse 34), Matthew 7:1-5 & Luke 6:37-42 (both talk about judgment while we are selves are also failing in an area and thus we will reap the judgment we sow on others)

    I am in the Church of Christ but I am not a member of the CoC denomination just FYI.

  258. Hey mr. Word,
    i’m going to be straight up.
    you’re an idiot.
    i read the first 4 verses you threw up trying to back up your point on baptism, and none of them backed a single thing.
    “If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord… you shall be saved.”
    fight that yo.
    oh,
    what?
    oh you cant?
    that’s right.
    because baptism is just a public display of your faith.
    quit trying to stretch the Word.
    you just made me mad whenever you said that the guy Jesus saved on the cross could’ve been baptized. if it was THAT important,
    I think God would’ve placed in His holy Word.
    baptism is only a good thing,
    but it doesn’t seal the deal on your salvation.

  259. Ethan let me explain how the game is played on their end so you will understand the trap you just walked into. They claim the only true church and do not fellowship with many of them own CoC churches.

    If you show any anger or frustration and slip and say anything they can spin as sin then you just proved yourself to be not of the body.

    Thus they will never lose their temper or get frustrated “publicly” they will temp many to sin simply to prove their beliefs.

    Deception can be justified by them misusing old testament passages, thus they can lie for Jesus and it not be a sin.

    So Ethan by calling them idiots you have in fact put a smile of their faces, strange as that sounds it is the truth! 😦

  260. You’re right.
    I did.
    man,
    i kind of feel like an idiot.
    but thank you.
    i shouldn’t have got mad.
    it’s not something to get all huffy over.
    i’m sorry guys

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