Churches of Christ and the Emerging Church

Believe it or not, I have found several blogs of people in the churches of Christ who are trying to figure out this new movement called “the Emerging Church”.  

Personally, I’m not completely sold on the Emerging Church, but I do think that it is good that they are trying to figure out how to relate with the 21st Century western culture.  I appreciate their willingness to thrash through the issues of traditional -vs- Scriptural.  And I think that especially hyperconservative churches of Christ need to ask themselves hard questions about this issue (as do all Christians from every Christian background).

Of course, some Emergents go too far and throw the baby out with the bathwater, so that Scripture plays little role.  But I appreciate that God is using this movement to continue the building of His kingdom.

The church of Christ and the Emerging Church?  Wow.  That’s a union I didn’t see coming.  It’ll be an interesting discussion!

You can read about it here.

And here.

And here.

If you Google “church of Christ” and “emerging” or “emergent church” together, you’ll find more. 

Thoughts?

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80 thoughts on “Churches of Christ and the Emerging Church

  1. When asked about the issue of homosexuality, McLaren-leader in the movement insisted that there is no good and satisfactory position for Christians to take, because all positions will hurt someone. I think this movement isnt one to follow ( my opinion ) They remind me of Mr. Positive – Joel Osteen

  2. Well, keep in mind that emergents are not an organized group – there isn’t an official Emergent Home Office or anything – it’s more of a way of thinking. Yes, McLaren is considered one of the “founding fathers”, but I think it is possible to take the good from what they say and jettison the bad.

    And the Emergent Church runs much, much deeper than Olsteen. They aren’t a “I love you, you love me” movement, but a movement that is looking at the issue of relevance for the church.

    For example, this is a quote from McLaren’s book, “A New Kind of Christian” that I really appreciate:

    “Instead of saying, ‘Hey, they’re wrong and we’re right, so follow us,’ I think we say, ‘Here’s what I’ve found. Here’s what I’ve experienced. I’ll be glad to share it with you, if you’re interested. Instead of conquest, instead of a coercive rational argument or an emotionally intimidating sales pitch or an imposing crusade or an aggressive debating contest where we hope
    to ‘win’ them to Christ, I think of it like a dance. You know, in a dance, nobody wins and nobody loses. Both parties listen to the music and try to move with it. In this case, I hear the music of the Gospel, and my friend doesn’t, so I try to help him hear it and move with it. And like a dance, I have to ask if the other person wants to participate… If you pull someone in who wants to learn, and if you’re good with the music yourself, it can be a lot of fun!”

  3. If we don’t understand our culture we are going to face some serious problems in trying to reach them. We are to be in the world but not of it. When you are trying to reach the world it makes all the sense in the world to try to understand the culture. The problem comes in when you start putting culture over scripture.

  4. The bottom line in the [Emerging Church] movement is they believe that we aren’t supposed to understand precisely the Bible …it is an attack on the clarity of Scripture…it is a denial that we can know what the Bible really says… They have embraced this “mystery” as if it’s true spirituality…it is at the foundation an unwillingness to accept the clear teaching of Scripture…

    These people, deny the clear teaching of Scripture. And I’m convinced that the reason they deny it, is not because it can’t be understood, not because it’s unclear, but because they don’t like what it clearly says. And that takes you back to John 3; men love darkness rather than light.

    What is needed, they say, is not just a change in methodology. We need a new kind of Christian.

    Absolute stands on issues such as homosexuality are viewed as obsolete. Activities such as drinking, clubbing, watching sexually explicit movies, and using profanities are seen by some emergents as opportunities to show those who are not part of the Christian community that postmodern Christians do not think they are better than them through any false sense of moral superiority

    Emerging Christians do not posture themselves before the world as though they were the light and the world were in darkness. Instead of “preaching” to the “lost” they join in “conversation,” with people of various beliefs. Conservative Evangelicals seem not to be truly welcome to contribute their distinctive content to this conversation since they represent the old, rotting corpse of “modernism.”

    Trappings such as burning candles and events such as silent retreats are popular in the movement. Embracing these premodern forms further breaks their connection with “modern” Christianity.

    The light is there, they hate the light, [and] they run from the light. The issue is not that Scripture’s not clear; it is crystal clear…the motive behind this whole Emerging Church thing –whether it’s a conscious or an unconscious motive – is discomfort over what the Bible really says…so the out is, “well it’s not clear.” This is just another way to set the Bible aside.

    Emerging believers reject any posture which hints at exclusivism. Dogmatic Evangelicals, however, are not treated as kindly in the conversation as others are (something many emergents admit).

  5. “whatdoesthebiblesay” accidentally posted a response to this post on another page, and asked me to move it over here:

    “I don’t know a great deal about them, but enough to know that they aren’t tight enough on the sin issue. Most of them in this movement shy away from questions about sin as did Osteen when interviewed by Barbara Walters. Why change the church? Why come up with ways to make it more appealing? Why not just preach the word as did Paul and others, and they sure as heck didn’t pussy-foot around the sin issues. I am very concerned about these types of movements; its like if I’m not satisfied with how church is, I will just spice it up my own way and/or water down the message – God forbid I hurt someone’s feelings. I understand that approach can be key to someone receiving the word, but at the same time, I also must be honest with the total message and call sin what it is…I totally disagree with Joel Osteen and men of his kind, who just preach the positive side….its a dang good way to sell books and have a huge congregation and sure will make the pockets fat too, but its an empty message if not preached from both sides. All they are doing is pulling in masses with easy believism and that to me is scary.”

  6. “whatdoesthebiblesay”‘s second post, moved over from another page:

    “Dude, this stuff is just another road to Rome and New age. They had a prayer station created for use during the Emerging Church service at Capo Beach Calvary allowing the congregation to “feel” and “know with the heart and not with the brain.” The prayer station complete with candles, incense and icons featured an instruction sheet to assist church attendees in how to pray with an icon. The instructions stated:
    • Draw in a slow deep breath. As you do pray, Holy Spirit surround me,
    fill me, breathe life into me.
    • Empty your mind of all anxiety.
    • Empty your heart full of desire except for God.
    • Focus on one icon and imagine what that person might say to you about God, yourself, and others
    • Read the icons as if the person who painted it wanted to send a
    message to you. Notice the details.
    • The icon is there to remind you of God: to make you conscious of His
    presence, all around you.
    • Pray in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
    (option) Cross yourself as you say these words.”

  7. I think there are two extremes; one group takes their assumptions, inferences, and binds them on others as law – on the flip side, others say, well there isn’t a clear-cut pattern and the bible is hard to understand, so we can just do as we please and have Christian rock, Christian rap, Christian hip-hop,……what’s next Christian drugs?? The fact is, people are bored with the bible because they really don’t care about “what does the bible say” and they love this feel good, positive preaching, and love the entrainment that goes along with it….its a feel good religion….fleshly….and yes that stuff will draw masses, because people love “entertainment.

    Remember me for good Neh 13:31

  8. The bible alone has the power to draw people. God doesn’t need our crafty changes to make the gospel more appealing. I have seen this over and over…drama shows, musical concerts, plays, and all sorts of man-made attractions to “draw the folks”. I believe we are to preach the word ( without changes ) and God will draw people to Him.

    Remember me for good Neh 13:31

  9. Read Dan Kimball’s Emerging Church and you will see a HUGE appeal to scripture. You will find him appealing to scripture as a standard and that truth can be obtained there. You will find him saying that ancient standards are important and can actually reach people and that the seeker-sensitive thing wasn’t what it was cracked up to be.

    The appealing thing to me about emerging culture/church is that it is an honest attempt to understand culture and wrestle with how best to reach people today. The answer seems to be that trendy new ways don’t really work. Instead, get back to what the early church did. Sound familiar? Be careful to not broadbrush the movement too much as there is not 100% consistency or statements of faith that come out of this movement and no one way to see it or do it or be it.

    The sin issue is a major one and with the responsible people in the movement you will still hear them say that sin is bad. I am sure in any church you will find people who don’t care about sin. That is not unique to this group.

  10. I’m sure there are honest, sincere, people in the “Emerging Movement” just as there are in every movement trying to get back to the bible, but what concerns me is how the doctrine of sin takes a back seat, to such a degree that some of their leaders rarely if ever preach about sin. The focus seems fixed upon positives as if they fear they will run away people with the whole truth. I have gay friends, drunkards friends, Adulterer friends, even murderers that are my friends. My friend of 25 years killed one man and almost another while robbing them , and now serving life in jail. Another friend of mine was hooked on drugs, and killed his own father and left his step mom paralyzed for life, and he too is pulling a life sentence. Should I just smile on them like Joel Osteen and say “its okay, God loves you, lift your head up and think positive thoughts, God loves you”. NO ! I will tell them that God loves them and desires that they turn from the sin they live in and turn to Christ, and I still will be their friends no matter what choice they make, but I will never put their sin in the closet and pretend it doesn’t need dealt with, and neither will I beat them over the head with their problems, seeing we all have sin issues….I just don’t like this movement for the fact that they do not address the sin issue…….

  11. is this the joel osteen site now?
    last time i checked, he didnt say your wife might be cheaten on you. now let me see……. who could that be…….thats right it was pecos bill, sorry johnny.
    the man with all the bravado and swagger is the one we are here to talk about. but lets not forget about his softer side. i didnt get to watch sun but i did last thur and it was down right pleasant. he and james side by side quickly dispatching the critics and absorbing the praise. btw i dont like how joel preaches. i seem to remember his father quite differently.
    lee

  12. “The bible alone has the power to draw people. God doesn’t need our crafty changes to make the gospel more appealing. I have seen this over and over…drama shows, musical concerts, plays, and all sorts of man-made attractions to “draw the folks”. I believe we are to preach the word ( without changes ) and God will draw people to Him.”

    Then there should be nothing on the internet about Jesus, or TV or Radio! Those after all, compared to the original methods for delivery of the word, are crafty pratices!

    Build trust, then because of that trust they will listen to the truth. Use the truth as a weapon to bludgeon them and they will not hear you.

    1 Cor 13:1Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

    2And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

    3And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

    Clearly there is a place for love in a Christians walk and delivery of his/her gifts to others. I would include the proclaiming of the word also. If it is used as a weapon it will only harden hearts of the people who hear it, perhaps a few may see the truth right away and believe, but the rest will be even harder to reach! While I am no fan of this movement I would rather they err in grace and this cause others to hunger for the word and discover all the truth then them to err the other way and harden others to the message of the cross. At least the babes can grow up to eat all that is there, where as others will never taste at all because of the bitterness they see in the full truth because of how it is delivered.

    One of the hardest things I ever had to hear was someone tell me that had my best friend been living right that their death would not have happened. It was an ignorant statement first of all because they are not God and do not know what would or would not have happened. Secondly, there was not a ounce of pity in it. Sadness for a loss of a friend was not there, but the religious spirit was and it was the same spirit that allowed them to walk into a coworkers office and have a yelling argument because of an office power struggle while at the same time claiming to no longer sin!

    It very nearly cost me my faith as a believer! The Spirit of Religion is more dangerous then this movement as it brings pride to the believer and allows the enemy to use that pride to drive others from the truth by using the truth as a weapon!

    Milk alone is wrong, meat alone is wrong. Both together feed a believer to fullness of growth!

  13. Walkinginlove, I didn’t mean the bible had some power within itself , without the aid of preachers, teachers,..ect…

    I was blasting the “anything goes”

    Lee, I don’t mind slamming on Johnny and his doctrine, you missed my point….if we are ok slamming on Johnny, then we should be ok with Johnny slamming on other preachers. I don’t mind calling out names and talking about what people believe….but we can get too focused upon the person and not the teaching. Maybe I look at things from another angle….I and JR have conversed over 10 years and often we have disagreed and I have been called some names to the point that people in Texas was emailing me about things….but I don’t let that bother me to the point I stay focused upon Johnny….because its not about him, its about what he does …..I assume you know Johnny and assume he has talked down to you at some point…right? The reason I used Joel Osteen is because I think he is the flipside of Johnny, one is negative and views the bible as a law book made of assumptions and inferences and the other is all positive and never talks about sin as if it doesn’t even exist….maybe we should meet somewhere in the middle…

  14. “Post-modern” used to be a dirty word, now we are at a point where we are staring in right in the face. As followers of Jesus who are called to share His Good News to the world, we stand at a crossroads. What will we do?

    If we are to thrive-much less grow as a church, if we expect young people to be involved, if we really want to share Christ with the world-starting right in our own backyards-we HAVE to be relevant, and we have to dive into the culture. Like someone said and is often quoted, we are to be in the world, but not of it. If we don’t, we will never move forward, the Good News of the Gospel will never be spread, and the church will grow stale and stagnant.

    We live in an incredibly post-Christian society. America is becoming the biggest mission field. People are not flocking into church, so we have to go to them right where they are. They want people to be REAL, to not hit them over the head with “religion”, but invite them into a relationship that builds trust, and ultimately brings them to God and His love. They want real answers to hard questions-some we may not know, but we can walk that journey with them.

    That is yet one more reason I get incredibly frustrated with with Johnny and his crew are doing. Their message is not relevant and it will not bring people to Christ-only to their “side”, and it only pushes people away from Jesus-not towards them. They don’t get that-they cannot see the bigger picture. They cannot see past their agendas to “defeat” the denominations and the people they feel the need to “destroy” to see a larger world that is REALLY in need of the message of Jesus-nor can they understand the need to be relevant or real to them without judging them by the type of church they go to.

    I love that we are having these types of conversations within the churches of Christ-it gives me hope for the future. I love my heritage and my family, but sometimes it is hard to find my place. I pray that these conversations continue, and that we can eventually dig ourself out of the holes of legalism, egotism, self-righteous indignation, and look at the bigger world around us, embrace the larger body of Christ we are a part of, and then go be the hands and feet to the world. Christ did not call us to “religion”, He called us to be His disciples. We have muddled that greatly (not just in the churches of Christ, but all throughout), and we have to realize the ever-changing culture we live in, adapt to it, while still remaining Biblical and in the will of God. It is a challenge that we face…and we must face it.

  15. whatdoesthebiblesay said:
    “if we are ok slamming on Johnny, then we should be ok with Johnny slamming on other preachers”

    Actually since Johnny has appointed himself as judge and jury thus sowing judgment then he asks to reap judgment. However if a preacher who I don’t agree with preaches as a believer in Christ but does not declare his way as THE way, then he has not sown judgment and thus should reap the same.

    In other words, John has asked to be judged by sitting on God’s seat and passing judgment, this also he will reap from God himself in due time.

    If we all suddenly started doing the same thing we would all be false prophets etc, to each other would we not?

    The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached!!!

  16. On July 1, 2008 at 3:49 pm Katherine Said:
    “Post-modern” used to be a dirty word, now we are at a point where we are staring in right in the face. As followers of Jesus who are called to share His Good News to the world, we stand at a crossroads. What will we do?

    – what will we do? The way it looks we will do as we please, act as we please and call it “church”. I keep seeing you guys using the word “culture” as if you are suggesting God needs us to bring the worldly ways into the church to gain the lost. We already have Christain rock, Christain wrap…I guess next will be Christain drugs, maybe even some Christain bars,lets keep it “culture” of today, God forbid we just preach the bible as its written. So, lets come up with some ways to bring people in…people love entertainment, so lets entertain them with concerts, plays, drama shows, and just mabe they will buddy up to us and just maybe they will recieve the gospel then…shame on you guys,and I am suprised at such thinking.

  17. Excuse me, “walkinlove”-but I said none of that.

    “People are not flocking INTO church, so we have to go (OUT) to them right where they are. They want people to be REAL, to not hit them over the head with “religion”, but invite them into a relationship that builds trust, and ultimately brings them to God and His love.”

    We have to go OUT of the church to reach most people-I never said we need to bring them all in to “entertain”. There is nothing wrong with Christian rock or rap-which is a FAR cry from Christian drugs-that came out of left field. It is great that there are so many mediums to reach people-that is nothing to be ashamed about, as long as Christ is still the central part of the message.

    I don’t know where you are coming from with this, but we DO have to be honest with ourselves and understand that the culture and the world is changing, and for us to be relevant we have to adapt to them, but still remain Biblical and within the will of God.

  18. Katherine, I made the comments, not “walkinginlove.” I am very shocked that people honestly are falling for the Christian Rock/Christian Wrap and if thats what you think should be the bait to pull them into the churches, thats you opinion. I, however, think we are taking the wordly lifestyles and using them to pull in sinners, and that my dear is not “a culture thing” but worldy thing. I have turned my TV on to ISP and honestly didnt know it was Rock or so-called Christian music-seemed very much the same thing…no wonder sinners want to be there.

  19. The Christian Rock stars may have the RIGHT motive, but only a carnal, backslidden, disobedient Christian could possibly think rock music was the direct will of God!

    The secular world knows the God of the Bible is NOT the “god of rock”. The lost, secular world knows Satan is the “god of rock”.

    Rock star David Bowie said, “Rock has always been THE DEVILS MUSIC.” (Rolling Stone, Feb. 12, 1976, p. 83)

    Secular rock bad girl Lita Ford, says, “Listen, rock’n roll AIN’T CHURCH. It’s nasty business. You gotta be nasty too. If you’re goody, goody, you can’t sing or play it. . .” (Los Angeles Times, August 7, 1988)

    Even secular Time magazine, (March 11, 1985 p.60) in an article about Contemporary Christian Music titled the article, “New Lyrics for the DEVIL’S MUSIC”.

    When rock music first appeared, even the secular world knew it was wrong. The very term “rock’n roll” means “sexual fornication”. In The Rolling Stone Encyclopedia of Rock & Roll (p.474) for the definition of “rock & roll” is “The term is a blues euphemism for sexual intercourse”.

    In 2 Corinthians 11:14-15:, the word of God reveals an alarming characteristic of Satan and his ministers:

    And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.(2 Corinthians 11:14-15)

    The Bible CLEARLY says in 2 Corinthians 11:14-15:

    1) Satan can appear as an angel of light.
    2) Satan’s ministers can appear as the ministers of righteousness [Christians].

    Could not Satan’s musicians appear as “musicians of righteousness”?

    An interesting side note. . .
    Marilyn Manson is a very popular secular rock star. Manson is a devoted Satanist and an ordained reverend in the Church of Satan. During his concerts Manson rips up the Bible.

    When asked in Blast! Magazine (May 1996) “How would you like to be remembered?”, Manson replied, “As the person who brought an end to the age of Christianity”.

    What most people don’t know is Satanist Marilyn Manson also had a Christian rock band formed to “infiltrate Christian nightclubs”.

    “Manson and Ramirez also worked on a couple of side projects. One was called Satan on Fire, a fake Christian death-metal band formed to infiltrate Christian nightclubs. . .” (Request, Jan. 1997, p.43)

    It’s also very interesting that as a youngster Marilyn Manson attended Christian school while following Satanism.

    By the way, do you know who said the following?

    “If we continue on this path, respectable, industrious and honest, if we fulfill our duty faithfully, it is my conviction, the Lord God will continually help us in the future. He will not leave respectable people in the lurch indefinitely. He may test them, but in the end He lets His sun shine upon them and gives them His blessing.”

    Billy Graham? Jack Van Impee? Billy Sunday? Dwight Moody?

    ADOLPH HITLER!

    Adolph Hitler also called his plan “Positive Christianity.” Watch out for the “positive” pushers!

    Just because someone mentions the Lord or acts like a Christian, does not mean there are following the Lord Jesus Christ. The real test is — are they following the word of God?

    Either rock music is from God — from day one. Or rock music is from Satan — from day one — and God will NOT honor it’s message!

    I have NEVER heard a clear, old-fashion, Bible-based plan of salvation from a CCM artist. I have heard several “feel-good”, watered-down, “make-a-decision” what ever. I have NEVER heard a simple, You are a sinner; You’re going to face judgement; You’re going to spend eternity in a lake of fire without Jesus Christ; You can do nothing to save yourself; etc. from ANY CCM artists.

    My bed time – ttyl

  20. God tells us to find common grounds to teach His word to people. We should be building bridges not burning bridges. I agree with you walkinlove. We should try to be obedient, but when we are obedient it should be more out of love than fear. God tells us not to lay burdens on people because it can place stumbling blocks in front of them. And sometimes it is hard for some people when they stumble to turn to God and get back up again, thats when a true christian needs to be there for them to show them how much Jesus loves them and that God has mercy for them. People will never be able to be perfect and God knows that and that’s why He sent Jesus to save us. And for a person to call themself a christian but make another person feel inferior to them because that person doesn’t meet their expectation is wrong. God knows we are sinners and knows we won’t always be able to be obedient, people make it hard for others to come to Christ, people who have the same mindset as Johnny.

  21. “I have NEVER heard a clear, old-fashion, Bible-based plan of salvation from a CCM artist.”

    Then you haven’t visited the link to the right which I added several days ago – “Camp on This” – CCM recording artist Steve Camp’s very hard-hitting blog. He is actually a pretty big critic of the emergent church movement, too.

    I may be showing my age a bit here, but what about Keith Green? Rich Mullins? Steve Green? Michael Card? Twila Paris? Many of the older CCM artists were all about giving the Gospel – they laid out the Gospel very clearly when you saw them in concert. Nowadays, I couldn’t tell you because I’m not as interested in that “scene” as I was when I was in school.

    But, this should digress into a criticism of CCM, because I would be on the forefront of that criticism. One of the reasons I lost interest in CCM was because of the commercializing of the whole thing, which ultimately meant the watering down of everything.

    And do you realize how you are limiting God when you say that “Christian Rock” isn’t possible, and that Rock belongs to the devil? I’m sure the devil is pleased with many books that are written, but that doesn’t mean books are the devil’s property. Same with films, internet websites, or even acapella songs. “The earth is the Lord’s and the fullness thereof” Psalm 24:1

    But, the point of this page is to discuss how Christians within the church of Christ are seeking to be innovative and creative in the way that they reach out to unbelievers, and how they express their faith in Christ. God is a creative God (Genesis 1ff), and we are made in His image, which means we are creative people.

    Are you saying that Christians shouldn’t even discuss these issues? That sounds like hypercon reasoning – that if we talk about being innovative and creative, then we might sin because we don’t cross the right “T” or dot the right “i”, and there’s no way God is going to be merciful unless we do everything exactly right (nevermind that Paul told us in Romans 3:10 that we can’t do everything exactly right…).

    Remember, whatdoesthebiblesay, “it is for freedom you have been set free…” Galatians 5:1

  22. “Katherine, I made the comments, not “walkinginlove.” I am very shocked that people honestly are falling for the Christian Rock/Christian Wrap and if thats what you think should be the bait to pull them into the churches, thats you opinion. I, however, think we are taking the wordly lifestyles and using them to pull in sinners, and that my dear is not “a culture thing” but worldy thing. I have turned my TV on to ISP and honestly didnt know it was Rock or so-called Christian music-seemed very much the same thing…no wonder sinners want to be there.”

    My bad, I was writing that as I was about to walk out the door. Ok, I don’t know what your beef is, but you are obviously not reading what I am saying and I have to disagree. I don’t think people are “falling” for the Christian rock/rap (not wrap), and I never said it should be “bait”-you are most definitely reading into what I am saying.

    However, you cannot compare secular rock and people like Marilyn Manson with most of the Christian rock singers today. Nor can you make a sweeping blanket statement such as you did without backing it up, which I don’t believe you can without being judgmental. Have you ever been to a concert, have you heard their message, their heart, etc? And if that does draw people into the message of God (and music does speak to MANY like nothing else), what is so wrong with that? I agree that we should not be about the “entertaining” business, but to make a blanket statement that Christian rock music is “from satan” and that “only a carnal, backslidden, disobedient Christian could possibly think rock music was the direct will of God!” is pretty judgmental.

    You also said:
    “I have NEVER heard a clear, old-fashion, Bible-based plan of salvation from a CCM artist. I have heard several “feel-good”, watered-down, “make-a-decision” what ever. I have NEVER heard a simple, You are a sinner; You’re going to face judgement; You’re going to spend eternity in a lake of fire without Jesus Christ; You can do nothing to save yourself; etc. from ANY CCM artists.”

    I have been to many concerts, and while not everyone does this, I HAVE heard this often.

  23. AMEN Katherine. People like Johnny and crew can’t see past their own agendas to truly bring people to Christ. Laying burdens on people and casting stones upon people just harden peoples hearts when they see people who call themselves christians do these things. To bring others to Christ we should treat others as Christ did. Some people don’t feel they are good enough to come to Christ and they need to see the love and compassion Christ has for them and true christians would show them love and compassion, when someone feels they are too bad a person for Christ they certainly don’t need people who call themselves christians to put stumbling blocks in front of them, they are already down, Jesus didn’t cast stones at people who needed Him, He showed them mercy.

  24. “Adolph Hitler also called his plan “Positive Christianity.” Watch out for the “positive” pushers!”

    Funny I don’t recall reading this in Mein Kamp or any other book on World War II! But then again anyone who does not realize that Hitler was an opportunist who would have become Jewish if it saw him to power, is blind or pushing their own agenda. After all most people think the west won the war in Europe but it was the Russians who suffered the lions share of losses and faced the lions share of the German army. Or that the Russians had more and better tanks but were beaten by better tactical doctrine that used the truths about combined arms to beat a better armed force in 1941. Anyway I say that to say Hitler was decidedly not a Christian, he may have been a CINO but that is all.

    I would say most politicians are much the same as Hitler as far as religion goes, playing the game to get the power but have no real faith. We hayseed hicks still vote and they gotta have the religious nuts to win that slim margin.

    I believe the current Republican exodus from conservatism is an attempt to leave Christian’s without a voice, because of they can gain enough liberal cross over votes along with the middle of the road voters they will no longer need the extreme views in their campaign planks!

    If you want to see what politics thinks about religion, let the balance of power swing so that the Christian vote does not matter and you will see an exodus of Egyptian proportions from anything religious in their character.

    You also have to remember that we are going through an age of rewriting history where FDR purposely allowed Perl Harbor, where we dropped the atomic bomb just because we are vicious and evil and where many now believe the holocaust is all Jewish propaganda.

    So read those quotes with a grain of salt added. The truth is in the fruit and Hitler was not a Christian based on that evidence. Although I will concede that Christian hatred of the Jews did lay the ground work for the holocaust! So it was a perfect scape goat for Hitler to use to blame everything wrong on the Jews because it fit Christian thinking during that time!

    Much like our nation is slowly doing to Christians. After all we are mentally unbalanced or weak according to some bold enough to make the statement of what they really think, of course they have no Christian voting base to worry about.

    And for that matter we are no longer a Christian nation, we have after all killed more then 40 million unborn in the name of freedom and rights. God placed a judgment on us for slavery called the Civil War, it is only a matter of time before we face another one for allowing the unborn to become modern day slaves! They are after all property of the mother and not human life!

    As for music, if Rock artists are complaining about Christian Rock bands then it is a GOOD THING not a bad thing! The music may sound the same but the message is totally different. And its the message that makes it good or bad, not the music.

    And yeah I believe in Christian Rock because it reaches into Satan’s Kingdom and takes back from it what can not be reached any other way!

    Someone listening to AC/DC or any other metal band is not going to listen to a organ or a piano or a pitch tuner! But they may listen to a Christian heavy metal band instead and maybe get hooked on it instead of the dark side. And then they may be able to learn the truth. Any other form and you are irrelevant to their lifestyle! You and I may not like it or consider it Godly but it is having a positive effect on youth and that is what really matters!

    As someone who grew up with AC/DC, Metallica and Judas Priest I would rather kids hear the truth delivered in a form that is reliant then leave that ground to Satan alone! As one who transitioned into Church through modern worship I can say had I gone to a traditional Church heard an organ at the beginning I would not have stayed because it was not relating to where I was coming from and because of that I would not have heard the truth that followed after the truth that was sung!

    Is it more important to be comfortable, or reach the lost? The truth is still the truth even if delivered in today’s wineskin! And for the record my favorite Christian song is Amazing Grace sung without music! But it took some time before it was so.

    So comfort or being all things to all people, you decide what is more productive in reaching a lost nation and world!

    If Christian rap reaches 10k that would otherwise be lost, I would live with the rap and suffer knowing that they were reached through my suffering so little!

    If that makes me a radical, then so be it!

  25. here are some lyrics:

    I was sure by now,God, that You would have reached down
    and wiped our tears away,
    stepped in and saved the day.
    But once again, I say amen
    and it’s still raining
    as the thunder rolls
    I barely hear You whisper through the rain,
    “I’m with you”
    and as Your mercy falls
    I raise my hands and praise
    the God who gives and takes away.

    And I’ll praise you in this storm
    and I will lift my hands
    for You are who You are
    no matter where I am
    and every tear I’ve cried
    You hold in your hand
    You never left my side
    and though my heart is torn
    I will praise You in this storm

    I remember when I stumbled in the wind
    You heard my cry to You
    and raised me up again
    my strength is almost gone how can I carry on
    if I can’t find You
    and as the thunder rolls
    I barely hear You whisper through the rain
    “I’m with you”
    and as Your mercy falls
    I raise my hands and praise
    the God who gives and takes away

    I lift my eyes unto the hills
    where does my help come from?
    My help comes from the Lord, the maker of heaven and earth
    I lift my eyes unto the hills
    where does my help come from?
    My help comes from the Lord, the maker of heaven and earth

    ———————–

    Any of you been here? It is full of truth about walking into a storm and struggling to hang on as God leads you through it! Without the music it is part of the Psalms!
    Psalms 121:1 I lift up my eyes to the hills—
    where does my help come from?

    2 My help comes from the LORD,
    the Maker of heaven and earth.

    I also see a connection to Job in these lyrics!

    So would you rather the youth hear the above or hear this:

    Living easy, livin’ free
    Season ticket, on a one – way ride
    Asking nothing, leave me be
    Taking everything in my stride
    Don’t need reason, don’t need rhyme
    Ain’t nothing I would rather do
    Going down, party time
    My friends are gonna be there too

    I’m on the highway to hell
    Highway to hell
    I’m on the highway to hell
    Highway to hell

    No stop signs, speedin’ limit
    Nobody’s gonna slow me down
    Like a wheel, gonna spin it
    Nobody’s gonna mess me ’round
    Hey Satan! Paid my dues.
    Playin’ in a rockin’ band
    Hey Mama! Look at me
    I’m on my way to the promise land

    I’m on the highway to hell
    Highway to hell
    I’m on the highway to hell
    Highway to hell

    ———————————-

    I used to be able to play this song end to end on the drums, now I can’t listen to it!

  26. and let that be a lesson to all you would be
    dictator\amature generals.
    never….. ever……fight a two front war.
    lee

  27. Fish only bite the bait they like, not the bait I like! If we are to be fishers of men we have to use the bait that gets them to bite!

    Go fishing with a rock as bait and tell me how many fish you catch!

  28. On July 1, 2008 at 10:30 pm lee Said:

    and let that be a lesson to all you would be
    dictator\amature generals.
    never….. ever……fight a two front war.
    lee

    Militarily true, but we are fighting a war on many fronts, in the spiritual realm, and in the fleshly realm. The enemy is strong and cunning and if we do not adapt and modify our methods of fishing for men we are going to lose the war that is already won! We have to get back to battle against the enemy and stop battling against each other!

    Matthew 12:24But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “It is only by Beelzebub,[a] the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.”

    25Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. 26If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand?

    Why is it that only Satan seems to have understood this truth about a divided house being able to stand? If we as believers do not find common ground to stand on, what is our fate to be? It’s not about us, we are the 99 that the Good Shepard left to go and find the one that was lost!

    So is it better to make the 99 feel comfortable or is it better to reach the one and suffer discomfort? He/she is worth more then the 99 who had not strayed according to the actions of the Good Shepard!

  29. On July 1, 2008 at 10:43 pm lee Said:

    sorry,
    i was trying to be witty.
    my bad.
    lee

    Nothing to apologize for Lee, you spoke the truth! 😉

  30. AMEN, “walkinlove”-thank you for your thoughts and for your testimony-I really appreciate it and was encouraged by it. You are right on so many points, and I loved this:

    “Is it more important to be comfortable, or reach the lost? The truth is still the truth even if delivered in today’s wineskin!

    So comfort or being all things to all people, you decide what is more productive in reaching a lost nation and world!”

    I also LOVE that Casting Crowns song-it has ministered to me many many times.

    Thanks again for sharing.

  31. I’m sorry whatdoesthebiblesay if I appear to be attacking you. But from a military stand point WWII Germany was able to overrun France in weeks because France had tied itself to WWI style methods. They were unable to adapt in time to meet the Germans speed and combined arms even though they had more and better tanks! Thus they were rooted in the past and it cost them their nation for several years!

    I see our spiritual fight the same way, we have to adapt to the current situation if we are going to deliver the truth to people. If we do not do so then we are guilty of the same things the French army did and will be just as ineffective at countering the enemy who has adapted to Rock Music and the Internet to deceive millions.

    Make no mistake, keep the truth pure, but deliver it in a way that is most likely to be tasted by the unchurched. We have to think in military terms in dealing with this spiritual war! Take a unbiased look at what is working and what is not and modify the methods so that it does become effective and we use every resource to the maximum effect to reach a lost and dieing world! We are fighting for the souls and eternity of men! Satan will use every trick he can, even to building a false sense of superiority in Christians themselves to achieve his goals and that is to turn as many off to Christ as he can.

    Just look at the homosexual hating Church that was recently in Danville a few years ago. Satan took their dislike of the Homosexual lifestyle and turned it into a God hates F**s theology that changes Cosmos into only them. Cosmos is the word used in God so loved the World, if memory serves. Thus world has become only their church and perhaps a few others that agree with them. They are the elect after all!

    We can clearly see this teaching as untruth while knowing that God does not like sin of any kind, yet they see it as truth and all who disagree with them as going to hell. Sound familiar Johnny?

    Using Acts 2:38 with all its poorly written verbiage and betting salvation on it is not a wise thing to do. Had it used correct verb tenses it might be something to stand on, but with all the faith based teachings in the Bible that seem to counter this and the example of people receiving the Holy Spirit without first being baptized makes the statement even more questionable. Add to that, the fact that they suddenly had Council over Circumcision after Acts 2:38 was spoken without it and that makes me see yet another red flag in Peter’s statement.

    The sad thing is, if you are a believer and believe another believer is going to hell, what does Judge not lest you be judged mean in that instance? I would rather not find not by sitting on God’s throne what it really means! Thus even if I was 100% sure I had all the scripture properly balanced I would not risk salvation on it because i know I am not perfect no matter how right I think I may be!

    Adapt to counter the true enemy, Satan! We are slowly losing this nation, it is NOT God’s will that any should parish!

  32. Thanks Katherine, we overcome by the blood of the lamb and the word of our testimony! It’s amazing to see others in Church who hear someone say, they were once lost but now are found, were blind but now see and do so though the truth of all the wasted time and mistakes made over the years.

    I was once so angry that if God did exist he must hate me, now I know how much he loved me that he gave a perfect son to save me.

    I have a son, he is far from perfect, but I love him to much to allow nails to be driven into his body to save anyone including me. I love him very much even when he is disobedient to my will. Yet how much more does the father love us that he was willing to allow his perfect son to suffer and die for those who spit on him and cursed him!

    I follow his teachings because he loved me first, not because I fear him. I owe a debt I can never repay no matter how hard I try, I can only forgive those who owe me such very small debts in comparison because he asked me to do so.

  33. “As someone who grew up with AC/DC, Metallica and Judas Priest I would rather kids hear the truth delivered in a form that is reliant then leave that ground to Satan alone!”

    – I too, grew up on this and I also played in bands of both Rock and Christain. You might should check out the lyrics of these Christain bands too. Too often you cant tell if its Rock lyrics or Christain. Flyleaf is played all over the raido right now, a self proclaimed Christian band, and there are many, many more. Maybe you should do a study on the “beat” of Rock music and then compare that to the this so-called Christain Rock. Are you familar with heavy metal, thrash, acid rock, they have so-called Christian bands too-just how far can one go with music, I guess far as they wish…sad

  34. Jars of Clay, not ONLY “listens” to satanic Ozzy Osbourne, but they’re so “INFLUENCED” by satanic Ozzy — JARS OF CLAY SING “CRAZY TRAIN” BY “SATANIC” OZZY OSBOURNE DURING THEIR “CHRISTIAN” CONCERTS!
    Some of the “satanic” lyrics to “Crazy Train”:
    Crazy, but that’s how it goes. . .
    I’m going off the rails on a crazy train
    I’ve listened to preachers
    I’ve listened to fools. . .
    Crazy, I just cannot bear
    I’m living with something that just isn’t fair
    Mental wounds not healing
    Who and what’s to blame
    I’m going off the rails on a crazy train
    Is there ANYBODY that is so “spiritually” BLIND that they could POSSIBLY think Ozzy Osbourne’s “Crazy Train: would be obeying Ephesians 5:19, “Speaking to yourselves in PSALMS and HYMNS and SPIRITUAL SONGS, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;”

    Btw, I could go on all day with these so-called Christian bands, they are just Rock Music under the banner “Christian”….

  35. Hey man, Hey cuz, Whatchoo doin man? I ain’t seen you in a long time. HEY, BABY.” (John calling Jesus baby!) Jesus turns and says, “Hey, what’s up, John?” See, Jesus is always cool; he’s always together. He’s got his thing together, y’ know, Then Carman blasphemously imitates the Lord Jesus Christ walking hip-jive doing what Carman calls “THE MESSIAH WALK”. UNGODLY! BLASPHEMY!

  36. Our spiritual songs must be sufficiently clear so as to convey the truth plainly, and must be consistent with biblical revelation (i.e., sound doctrine)-the words should focus upon the Lord Jesus Christ and encourage practical submission to God’s order in all our personal affairs. Most contemporary Christian music can be rejected on the basis of lyrics alone-even when the lyrics are audibly clear, the predominance of false doctrine and/or the shallow view of the person and work of Jesus Christ is often appalling.

  37. Convictions must be based on the Word of God and not personal tastes, likes, and dislikes. Since most of religious rock, or so-called contemporary Christian music, has its roots in, and draws its inspiration from, secular rock ‘n’ roll, the result is worldliness in the music, and even worse, worldliness through music invading the church. Further, it authenticates the rock sound by having professing Christians playing the music. When one applies the standards of Scripture to this form of worldliness (e.g., II Cor. 6:17; I Thes.5:21, 22; Rom. 12:2; I Jn. 2:15,16; Js.4:4; etc.), the wrongness of such music should be obvious to all who truly desire to please their Lord.

    Titus 1:9 -“Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers. “

  38. “all things to all people”… either Paul meant it or he didn’t.

    Why is it sad? Jesus went all the way to becoming a man to redeem the lost. His followers can’t play a certain genre of music? That seems rather trite.

    Personally, I am happy to know that there are Christians playing in those genres. Now, if as a fly on the wall you couldn’t tell any difference between their lives and the lives as their compatriots in the non-Christian bands, then I’d say that there isn’t any use. But if they are being faithful in their witness along the way, then I’d tell them to go for it.

    Why not? We want Christians working in other non-Christian atmospheres – hospitals, schools, businesses… at the end of the day the entertainment industry is just that… a business. But it’s a business that impacts the audience, and so again, I’m glad to have believers doing the impacting rather than a group of pagans.

  39. Hey, awordfromthelord, it is obvious that we disagree on this point. I would suggest that we apply Romans 14 to this issue and move on. If you feel strongly convicted to avoid CCM, then by all means, avoid it. I, on the other hand, am typically edified by much CCM, and in fact have memorized much Scripture because of it, so I would encourage you to let God do His thing in my life.

    If you and anyone else on this site feel the need to continue discussing it, then please continue, but I’m going to bow out of this particular topic because I see us knocking heads the whole way along, and I think we both probably have better things to do.

  40. Whoops – I meant “whatdoesthebiblesay”. Sorry, got my shows mixed up.

  41. Oh we still need to guide the youth but not control them to a point they rebel against our teachings.

    There are suspect bands and songs but frankly after seeing some of Johnny’s shows Crazy Train may very will hit the nail on the head. Now if I consider that as a believer what does the world think of it?

    Are we happy plastic people under shiny plastic steeples?
    With walls around our weakness and smiles to hide our pain…..

    Is there anyone that fails? Is there anyone that falls?
    Am i the only one in church today feeling so small
    Cause when i take a look around they all seem so strong
    I know theyll soon discover that I dont belong

    So I tuck it all away like everythings ok cause if i make them all believe it
    Maybe ill believe it too
    So with a painted grin I play the part again so that everyone will see me
    The way that I see them

    Is there anyone thats been there? Are there any hands to raise?
    Am I the only one whose traded the altar for a stage
    The performance is convincing we know every line by heart
    Only when no one is watching do we really fall apart

    But if the invitation is open to every heart that has been broken
    Maybe then well close the curtain on this stained glass masquerade… ”

    Getting real means rethinking methodology from the building used to the delivery of the truth. Call it a gimmick, but the real truth is we live in an era where entertainment has become the norm and unless we find a way to keep the truth delivered relative to the times we live in we are going to be the French Army and be pushed back into the darkness.

    But we can all pat our selves on the back because we did things the way our father did them and that is what is important after all is it not? We can even quote scripture to stay in the comfortable place and not take risks or we can learn to adapt like Joesph did during his life and still hold to the truth no matter what the situation he was facing.

    Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

    Based on the above I would say that Rock Music was created by those he created and its about time we took it back from Satan for Christ!

    Or we can be the elect and sit in our happy plastic steeples with walls around us to protect our happiness from the world.

    I personally pray for Metallica to come into a relationship with the Lord, while it sounds crazy if it happened many who would not know Christ because of how we have acted toward them may know him through that conversion.

    Our God was radical enough that he let his son become a baby in a stable a nothing in the middle of nowhere and use that to reach millions of believers who are no longer under a death sentence.

    He was accused on blasphemy and being in league with the devil, yet he was the truth.

    Safety behind our walls in the hopes they will listen or be in the world but not of the world and guide the world to the truth by taking ground from the enemy in every area he has currently. Music, radio, internet and any other you could name. We have to change tactics to reach them or we will not reach them and they will die and we will give an accounting for why we were so afraid of the master that we hid our talent and did not use it to its best ability!

  42. On July 2, 2008 at 12:10 am lee Said:

    “what we need here is a good blitz”
    sincerely

    Heinz Gudirian

    LOL funny you bring that name up Lee, he and the other panzer generals were constantly at odds with the traditionalists in the army. Hienz was constantly accused of always running his operations in the edge of failure, thus the Germany army itself was resistant to change.

    One of the most glaring examples was Dunkirk where the English army was ready for the taking and were allowed to escape. Several times the Panzer’s were ordered to hold ground in Russia when they should have been allowed to be mobile and were not. And lastly because of the successes early on they were slow to upgrade and improve production and this arrogance cost them the war fortunately for us!

    In many ways I see the Church in the same situation, we once were a Christian nation and the methods used to reach the lost were working well, but now we have held to those ways and they are no longer as effective. Most Church growth comes from believers transferring to another Church because of something that offended them in the previous church. Only to leave that one for the next one etc. We have churches who have been so controlled by their boards that the pastor was afraid to preach the truth or was fired for doing so. And we have compromises to the truth in the name of reaching the lost and that makes it harder for others to consider changing the methods in delivery of the truth lest they fall into the same league as those who have compromised the truth instead.

    And slowly but surely we are becoming irrelevant to the world and slowly we seem to be turning on each other to gain members.

    When we stand before the throne I wonder if we will be asking to be moved away from that other group because they are of the devil?!

  43. This has sure been hijacked.

    From what I have read above the majority of you don’t really seem to be grasping what the Emerging Church is all about. It is not about seeker-sensitive worship and bringing in rock bands, etc. There is actually more of an appeal to ancient and biblical methods and models of ministry and worship.

    I would think that would appeal to anyone who associates with the Churches of Christ.

  44. I find contemporary Christian music is very Godly. God has given these people the gift to play music and He has put in their hearts to use their gift to bring people closer to God and to tell others about Jesus. God isn’t letting the devil and people like Johnny and crew take music away from us to praise Him.

  45. Maybe we could start a heavy-metal-thrash-acid rock Church, only play the heavy stuff. ( bet that would draw the youth in ) I know I have almost 30 years of experience and I know a bunch of other metal heads, who just might come to church if they can still jump around, act crazy while ripping thru some rockn–roll for Jesus. We could call our church “Rock of Ages” – a place to bang your head. Maybe even put up some lights and fog rolling from the floor….heck, we could even have lightening bolts shoot down from the roof………after all, there is no limits in this ya know, it’s a free-for-all, so lets go all out. BTW, this is exactly what the bands are already doing…so…. seeing its all Godly and all, I see no problem bringing this into a church….maybe we could contact Ozzy to lead the prayer service prior to us singing “Crazy Train”…boy that would draw the teens in, but since Ozzy isn’t saved, we better just get some Christians to play the part……I guess we could even add a dance area. mosh pit ….oops, the Christian Rock bands already do this….my bad….

  46. Truth said:

    “God has given these people the gift to play music and He has put in their hearts to use their gift to bring people closer to God and to tell others about Jesus. God isn’t letting the devil and people like Johnny and crew take music away from us to praise Him.”

    Amen once again.

  47. I love Christian Rock, and I love all sorts of Rock, metal, R&B, Hip Hop, BECAUSE IT APPEALS TO MY FLESH! As I heard one preacher say, if the music hits my feet before the lyrics hit my heart….I know its not of God. Have any of you guys been to these Christian Rock concerts, do you not know about the dancing, the mosh pits, the body surfing, the head banging? Do you not know that they also have thrash metal Christian rock bands, have you attended these concerts? I have attended the secular and the so-called Christian Rock concerts and they are twins….you cant tell them apart. Most always the bands are being glorified by the audience, the youth are into the bands, not God….

  48. “whatdoesthebiblesay”-I do think this has to be a Romans 14 thing. I can understand where you are coming from and why it bothers you, and that is fine-but I don’t think it is up to you to judge the motives of those who are using their gifts from God through music with pure motives, or those who are blessed by it (who are honestly unaware of the “evils”) and are all glorifying God. You simply cannot make a blanket statement saying we are all evil or not too “real” honest Christians for participating in it. You have your convictions, as does everyone. That is great.

    It does come down to motives for much of it. You can usually tell who is real and who is not-after all, they are putting themselves out in front of the entire world on stages, etc. with their message.

    My point from the beginning is that it does reach some people, and that is wonderful. If it is something you can not participate based on your experiences and beliefs, I would not want you to do so. But there are some of us who do not believe it to be satan’s tool and are not just participating anyway and ignoring the “evils” just to draw in the masses (as it seems you are implying). You have to look at it from every perspective.

    Anyway, those are just my thoughts.

    We have gotten off track from the original discussion-which had nothing to do with this. You seem to have missed my entire point in the first place, which was never about “trying to draw in the masses” with entertainment and a free for all.

    All I ever said is we need to go TO the people where they are, be relevant and real to them, and try to speak in their language, but always remaining Biblical and not compromising our beliefs or watering down the message. Each person is reached differently through many mediums, and we are each gifted with something-so why not combine the two to draw more people to Him?!

  49. “Have any of you guys been to these Christian Rock concerts, do you not know about the dancing, the mosh pits, the body surfing, the head banging?”

    I already said that yes, I have been to many.

  50. “Each person is reached differently through many mediums”

    – I will not touch that one 🙂

    Here is a plan: we should look at what the worldly sinners like and then clone that into the church. I guess we could open up a dance hall, or club, have some heavy rocknroll paying….with some Godly lyrics, or ones seemingly Godly. Flyleaf, Every Day Sunday, Jars of Clay, Days of Fire, New boys, Seven day Slumber, Switchfoot, Third day, or some others bands like this, before we move up to the heavy duty thrash Christian metal bands. We could make mixed drinks, no alcohol though, just the appearance will suffice. We could call it “Club Jesus”, the place that the world comes to…..okay nuff bout this………..whats next 🙂

  51. You are COMPLETELY missing my point, and have some EXTREME biases that are not allowing you to see what I am saying. There is not much I can do about that.

  52. Actually, though-the scenario you displayed-without the idea of it being a “church” has already been done and is honestly a great idea-if it would get the kids off the streets and into a safe environment then I am ALL for it.

    I don’t understand what is so wrong or hard with this concept of reaching people where they are and going OUT TO THEM-which is what I continue to say-GO OUT, GO OUT, GO OUT-you keep talking about catering the church to them and making it into some party-I am saying go out because they are not coming in. Then, relationships are developed, and the rest has the opportunity to fall into place.

  53. I see your point Katherine. I am from the bands? I have played the very stuff I am talking about. I traveled and done the band thing. I see your point, but do you see mine. WHERE DO WE DRAW THE LINE??

  54. I told you I see your point, but what I am saying is you missed my original point and turned it into something else. I understand where you are coming from and why you believe what you do.

    I don’t know-that has to be up to each individual person and church. I think if the focus is taken off God, then you draw the line. If God is not glorified, it becomes about us, pride gets in the way, or it causes people to sin-you draw the line.

    BUT, that does not mean we should shrink away in our churches and wait for them to come to us. We should be all things to all people, and use all of the abilities that God has given us to get His message out. THAT is why I said people are reached by different mediums, because they are!!

  55. http://www.rocketown.com:

    “We provide a safe, alcohol and drug free environment for youth to enjoy concerts, classes, videogames and skateboarding. While many of the classes we offer are centered around ages 10 thru 18, the concerts are all-ages events.

    This facility was completed in 2003 thanks to the original vision of singer Michael W. Smith who desired to have a place youth could go to hang out in a safe atmosphere.”

  56. I do see your point, or the point you are wishing to make. I have seen the bands from a bands view, and the audience worships the band; they want band members hats, ear rings, sweaty due-rags, autographs, all in the name of worshipping God…..they yell and scream for the band, they clap for the bands, they are worshiping the bands, not God. Here is how we bands work on you guys, we sit down and come up with a ticket, a plan, a way to target all of your emotions, much like a movie. We often start out with a popular song then we play several songs that are upbeat that will get the people into the music, then we switch gears and pull out a tear jerker after we have drained them. We may play a couple of tear jerkers and then move back to a fast song, then maybe play some really fast ones…..then guess what…..another slow on…..by doing this you control the audiences emotions and they leave feeling like they have seen a great show……always end with a prayer though….and every now and then talk about Jesus too….maybe even throw out a verse or two…..all bands have it all planned prior to you seeing them…..

  57. I am not arguing that many people worship the band over God-I know that happens, and I am not in denial over that. That is not good, and each person has to examine who they are really worshipping, while each band has to examine their motives. But that does not mean that God is never ever glorified, that people are not reached, and that God is not somehow working through that medium, or that people are not truly genuinely worshipping God so we should completely do away with and run from it because it is “all from satan”.

    I still stick with this:

    I can understand where you are coming from and why it bothers you, and that is fine-but I don’t think it is up to you to judge the motives of those who are using their gifts from God through music with pure motives, or those who are blessed by it (who are honestly unaware of the “evils” 😉 and are all glorifying God. You simply cannot make a blanket statement saying we are all evil or not too “real” honest Christians for participating in it.

  58. I agree Katherine. I won’t dare play God, as if I can judge ones heart. Anyways, what was the subject before we drove down music lane?:) If it was the ‘Emerging Church” I think I have already stated my opinions there as well. Everyone be sure to watch Johnny tonight, at 9pm….I think he still comes on Wed night.

  59. Good, wdtb (easier to write) 😉 Yes, it would probably be good for us to get back on topic…

    I don’t live in the area, but even if I did-I have much better things to do than watch Johnny. 🙂

  60. whatdoesthebiblesay, so you are judging other Christian bands by an experiece you had. Thats no different than to think that all christians act and believe the same way Johnny does.

  61. Same to be said about the people who listen to contemporary or christian rock, not all people who listen to contemporary or christian rock worship the bands but are praising God as they listen to it.

  62. On July 2, 2008 at 3:50 pm Truth Said:
    whatdoesthebiblesay, “so you are judging other Christian bands by an experiece you had. Thats no different than to think that all christians act and believe the same way Johnny does.”

    – Truth, are you judging me 🙂 for judging the Christian Rock bands? As I already stated, I judge no man, but I am a fruit inspector, seeing we ae told we can “judge” a tree by its fruit…

    It’s easy to watch these bands on tour and see where the “fans” hearts are…they are on the music and the band members, not God.

  63. mattdabbs wrote:

    From what I have read above the majority of you don’t really seem to be grasping what the Emerging Church is all about. It is not about seeker-sensitive worship and bringing in rock bands, etc. There is actually more of an appeal to ancient and biblical methods and models of ministry and worship.

    Matt, maybe you can help get us back on track since I referenced your site in the first place. Can you give us your thoughts on the emergent church, and why it appeals to you?

    Since whatdoesthebiblesay has a posting on his blog dealing with rock music, why don’t you guys take that conversation over there.

    http://whatdoesthebiblesay.wordpress.com

    Meanwhile, here, let’s try and keep this focused on the subject of the emergent church, because as Matt said, it’s not just about rock music.

    Thanks!

  64. On July 2, 2008 at 6:27 am answeringchurchofchrist Said
    On July 2, 2008 at 6:32 pm answeringchurchofchrist Said

    – Dude, I need a clock like the one overseas 🙂
    6:27am = 3:37pm
    6:32pm = 3:32am

    ttyl

  65. Pingback: At Last, I’m a Change Agent « One In Jesus.info

  66. does anyone know where I can find a lita ford quote saying rock ‘n roll ain’t church, it’s dirty? it’s supposed to be on this site somewhere. thanks

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