For those of you in the WGSR viewing area, Chris Knight is supposed to be on Sunday night at 8:00 for 25 minutes. Charles Roark has apparently offered Chris 25 minutes to give his position regarding Johnny Robertson and their recent encounter outside the WGSR studios. Knowing Chris from his blog, I would bet he’s got something interesting up his sleeve! Let’s all watch and support him.
Answering the Church of Christ 
I havent watched that channel in about 6 months, but I think I will tune in to see what Chris says/does
We’ll be watching and recording for sure
Chris, I will be praying for you tonight. Remember Be Strong God is with you.
On June 8, 2008 at 1:15 pm faithful Said:
We’ll be watching and recording for sure
-I think we all know this already. And don’t forget that you guys will also run his clips over and over, or maybe Johnny will say he isnt even worth the time and just ignore him.
Randy Johnny has already said that Chris is a person and he cares for him as we all do. Randy just because you depersonalize and don’t care about peoples souls don’t think we are like you. Are you sure you don’t want to talk about your father and how you are having problems with Johnny because you see as a father figure ?
You all are aware that Chris is just running a dvd tonight , correct?
“faithful”…
Don’t think for one minute you are actually fooling anyone on here. You have shown your true colors over and over; and it is clear how you treat and view people, especially people of God who you don’t agree with. You have shown your “fruits”, and they are simply not pretty. You have issues you need to deal with before you go around pointing out the speck in other people’s eyes.
Will someone who is in the area let us know what happens? Thanks!
On June 8, 2008 at 3:49 pm faithful Said:
Randy Johnny has already said that Chris is a person and he cares for him as we all do. Randy just because you depersonalize and don’t care about peoples souls don’t think we are like you. Are you sure you don’t want to talk about your father and how you are having problems with Johnny because you see as a father figure ?
-faithful, you sure come up with some crazy ideas. And, far as your commnet about Johnny caring for folks – I will not even comment on this. And you have the nerve to say I depersonalize…faithful, have you even watched one of Johnny Springers show…oops I mean Johnny Robertson’s shows? We all know that he does just what you said I do…surely your eyes are not blinded by him are they?
Kat, I plan to watch Chris tonight, but then change the channel, but I am sure we will here about the entire ordeal on here.
Just as I thought. A few minutes talking about Johnny and then the rest of the time promoting his abilities on the film work. A sad way to get a commercial for business
Randy please tell katherine that if she expects me to believe that she knows anything about me when she can’t even see the difference between the Lords church and the denominational churches that preach the false doing nothing gospel she doesn’t need to hold her breath
Faithful, If someone says they are going to hear someone sing , does that mean the person singing will do it without music. When it is known the person has done so with music.
Are you refering to a worship service or a concert?
Just as it is stated. How do you interpret that.
I thought that Chris did a good job. Notice how JR’s attitude in the followup seemed to be a bit more diplomatic?
Johnny kept coming back with the retort that Chris “lacks the Bible knowledge”, but I’m not sure what he means by that. I would say it is more that Chris hasn’t spent each day debating the Bible. Maybe that’s because he spends his time actually reading Scripture for edification, and to know God, and not so that he can win arguments and debates.
And another question – why did JR challenge Chris to debate on this blog, and then suddenly decide Chris lacked the Bible knowledge?
What did Chris have to say?
the “false doing nothing gospel”? Right, “faithful”…I have tried to show you what the church is, but you have refused to listen. When you take the Johhny glasses off and are able to read the Bible for yourself, then maybe we can have a discussion. Randy is correct, you have been blinded-hopefully, one day when you take the blinders off you can see the truth, too 🙂
I would commend Nathan’s link entitled “An Exhaustive Look at the Church of Christ” under blog roll. It is an excellent source.
I will say that at least Chris had the guts to go live – something Bobby and I haven’t done on these blogs, but I must be honest too and acknowledge that there were at least 6 occasions within the 13 minute speech that Johnny could pick apart. One was when Chris stated that the bible teaches one merely “ask for forgiveness of sins” that verse may be a bit difficult to find in the bible. And far as the 5 minute movie clip, I’m not sure what the heck that was about, and at that point almost felt sorry for Chris. I knew that would be seen as a way to get a commercial for business. I commend Chris for having the guts to go live, but , I will not be dishonest about what I seen either. I hate to sound like a broken record, but it’s a must to know each and every doctrine and POV that these men have…and maybe Chris does, but was just nervous.
I didn’t do that as a “commercial”.
I promised the people who worked with me on that, that it would be shown on television one way or another. If I’m offered 25 minutes of airtime to do with as I please, and I didn’t need to use all of it for what I needed to do, then it would have been wrong not to have made use of it for that.
That took a lot of courage Chris, very commendable.
Faithful never answered my question. Does that mean faithful doesn’t know how to interpret the word sing, or does it mean that faithful can’t admitt that to say the word sing isn’t necessarily meaning without music.
And I don’t care to use the Bible as a debating tool, either. Neither do I care to know EVERY doctrine of these men.
I study the Bible so that I might draw closer to God. Studying it to attack others… there is so much wrong with that, that I don’t know where to start.
The Word of God is a sword, but it is not a weapon.
On June 9, 2008 at 7:41 am Truth Said:
Faithful never answered my question. Does that mean faithful doesn’t know how to interpret the word sing, or does it mean that faithful can’t admitt that to say the word sing isn’t necessarily meaning without music.
Truth, I agree with what you say. I once was in a gospel singing group for years – I played the drums. But we never called a gospel singing and playing group. Just as in the OT there are verses that state juts the word sing in them, and we know that they didnt take this to mean sing only. If I ask someone to come and sing amazing grace and they come and sing the song with the aid of music, they still were singing as I ask. Now, if I ask the person to come and sing and he just came up and done a drum solo, then he has not done I as ask….
Truth I asked you to clarify your question . Did you do that or are you above that?
“Just as in the OT there are verses that state juts the word sing in them, and we know that they didnt take this to mean sing only.”
prove it please
As I said, I commend you, it took guts to go live on air and do that. Bobby and myself from these blogs haven’t done that yet, so I cant be too hard on you, I was just saying that Johnny will eat a person apart who doesn’t know their bible ( as per his theology ). Many folks are caught off guard by them because they don’t know what all they teach, as evidenced by the preacher James confronted about music…the man had no idea what James was talking about – not because he hadn’t read the bible, but because he didn’t know what the cofC believed the bible to teach on music
Faithful, maybe you should ask David to proof this, seeing he expounded on this in the OT….or was David sinning when he used music as an aid to the singing, maybe you should prove that David sinned when he used music to aid singing
Johnny, I think maybe you should assist “faithful” some, he seems to be lost at times on things and not sure what he should say and ends up saying whatever comes to his mind. And where did all of you guys go? It’s strange you were here for a while on this blog and then you, Joey, and James “for some reason” stopped commenting. It did appear odd that you guys were all here like that, so maybe you think its best you drop back out know what I mean
Randy,
Maybe they ran out of things to say?
(doubtful though)
I agree. Faithful does seem a little confused about some things. Besides telling people to “eat vomit” and calling them “false teachers,” there is little substance in what he is saying.
Maybe he is just someone trying to make the CoC look bad?
Randy you should prove David was in the NT since that’s where we are today.
Randy it’s called having a life ,you should try it. Do you think you are the only lost person we know. We have already spent sooo much time on you. Our feet are dusty here
Faithful,
“Randy it’s called having a life ,you should try it. Do you think you are the only lost person we know.”
Everybody Sing! “And they know we are Christians by our love, by our love! Yes, they’ll know we are Christians by our love.”
Wow Faithful, besides stating you are a Christian, what evidence is there to show for it? The only thing we see is that you hold certain mental facts about the faith yet your conversation here is far from anything expected from a person of Faith.
I will pray for you.
WELL STATED JP !
THX
My point was that some of song books you guys use ( in your worship assembly ) have songs written by sinners, BUT per your pattern theology and silence of scriptures, where does it grant you the okay to use something else other than the songs specified in scripture? You guys are a hoot at times, you can break your own rules, but get mad when we call something an expedient or matter of judgment or an aid. Who made up the invitation song that most all church of Christ assemblies use, did man? Or can we find a “speak where the bible speaks” here. Peter must have forgotten to sing the invitation song when he preached in Acts 2….btm line JBB, this is one of the traditions you guys made up and still follow, the bible is silent about it…..note, I am not saying its wrong, just saying you guys bend and break your own rules, but then desire to place everyone else under your bondages of hermeneutics
See the thing is that the cofC believe they have to earn their way to heaven. If our good works were to get us to heaven then we would ALL fail miserably. That is why God told us He has saved us by His Grace.
Amen, Truth!! 🙂
OK…I’ve got to clarify…
TRUTH,
You stated: “See the thing is that the cofC believe they have to earn their way to heaven.”
This is entirely inaccurate, and a cause for much of the problems in communication. There are a few cofCers here and there…even a few congregations… that do believe this, but this is by no means representative of the cofC as a whole.
To claim that we must strive to be obedient to God is not the same as relying on works for salvation. In general, we believe (I preach for a cofC) that we are saved by grace through faith, not by works. We believe that faith, Biblically defined, is not mere belief or mental assent, but trust that leads to obedience. I would imagine that, in general, your theology and that of the average cofCer in regards to salvation would be very similar…we probably only disagree on what God asks us to do to be saved, but we both believe we have to do something.
I know most commenters here know this by now…just wanted to clarify for TRUTH and anyone else who has this misconception…we need to get rid of the misconceptions. We in the cofC need to do this, too. If I want to know what a Baptist believes I need to ask a Baptist, not just say what someone else said a Baptist believes. Same goes if you want to know what cofC believes…if you want hyper-concervative, non-representative, ask Johnny, Faithful, James, etc… If you want something more representative ask Corey, or me, or Nick (if he ever somes on again…where are you Nick?…actually I know where he is…just moved to Arizona to start as an associate minister…keep him in your prayers).
Anyway…be careful not to claim we believe something without asking first.
I would add that salvation by works is not, by any means, a cofC problem, but a people problem…we would like it to be true because it is easier (in our minds). The percentages of folks who believe this in the Baptist church or the Assembly of God church, for example, would probably be comparable to those who believe it from cofC.
Sorry cthoward. I was pointing that at the hyper-conservative cofC folks. And I think there are others who might need to understand this.
…”if you want hyper-concervative, non-representative, ask Johnny, Faithful, James, etc…”
-And just where are my hyper-cons today 🙂
No hard feelings, TRUTH…
I had a feeling you didn’t mean all cofC…it just slips out that way. I do it, too, talking about Baptists or Catholics or whatever. We all need to be more careful about it. It’s not fair for us to label everyone claiming to be from the same group as having the same views…I think Catholic theology is works-oriented, but certainly not all Catholics are. I think Baptist theology is grace-as-a-license-to-sin oriented, but certainly not all Baptists are. If you are Catholic or Baptist, I hope you are not offended… I am not questioning your sincerity, just the theology that your denomination espouses. And this by no means reflects an “I’ve got it all figured out” attitude…I know I don’t.
I happened to catch Johnny Robertson talking about what happened last night on WGSR.
There is no way that a humble, sincere follower of Christ could say what Robertson just said live on the air.
It really is all about *him* and his “Church of Christ”, isn’t it?
What he’s doing isn’t about serving God at all. He’s not even PRETENDING that this is about really serving Christ.
That’s all I tried to say last night. That without the love of Christ motivating us, all we do is for naught.
Robertson doesn’t understand that. I don’t know if he CAN understand that.
At least three people have quietly told me that after watching his show last night for the first time, that there is no question in their minds that Johnny Robertson is demon possessed.
The sad thing is, I really don’t know of anything to say in defense of Robertson against that kind of charge. Parse that as you will.
Chris
can I ask you how playing that dvd glorified Christ
Just as I said
you are trying to use a religious arena to get your self promo time
you were something
could not even go 20 minutes on Jesus
oh but let us all get on line and see his documentary
wow Chris is the man he really answered Johnny “not!”
Thanks Chris
you are going to make for lots of hay
Randy said of Chris
And far as the 5 minute movie clip, I’m not sure what the heck that was about, and at that point almost felt sorry for Chris. I knew that would be seen as a way to get a commercial for business
thank you randy. you are an honest person on this
Johnny,
How is what you are doing showing devotion to Jesus Christ, and demonstrating His love to others in this world?
If you cannot answer this, then I do not see why I should be compelled to reciprocate about something so minor as a 25-minute DVD, when your faction has several HOURS a week and no fruit of the spirit to show for it.
How is what you are doing showing devotion to Jesus Christ, and demonstrating His love to others in this world?
Can you not answer this? Or is attacking the ones who dare to ask it ALL you can do?
Is this all you have, because you do not truly have Christ in your heart?
Just as I said
you are trying to use a religious arena to get your self promo time
you were something
could not even go 20 minutes on Jesus
oh but let us all get on line and see his documentary
wow Chris is the man he really answered Johnny “not!”
Thanks Chris
you are going to make for lots of hay
Have you ever listened to the things you say, Johnny?!
How does ANY OF THAT glorify Christ??
I mean, can you SERIOUSLY imagine Peter, or Paul, or John, or Jesus Himself, saying that others will “make for lots of hay”?
You may have a head knowledge of the Bible, Johnny Robertson. But you do not demonstrate a heart knowledge. Not at all.
And if that is all you have, then your baptism is meaningless and all you have shown to us is that you are just… all wet.
Again: How is what you are doing showing humble devotion and adoration of Jesus Christ and sharing His love for others?
Chris, although I disagree with Johnny on some things – and maybe I don’t even like his attitude at times, but I will not go all out anti-Johnny to the point where I say “you done a great Job Sunday” because you let 25 minutes go down the drain partly over the movie clip or whatever that was and we all expected to see you put up some kind of defense and at least spend the 25 minutes talking about the bible. I hadn’t even watched that channel for over 6 months and tuned in to see what you had planned and to be honest, I was disappointed. I still commend you for stepping out of the blog , but maybe you, me , Bobby, and others on here should stick to the blogs. I know I may come down hard on Johnny and his teachings at times, but to be honest with you, there is very little I disagree with them on….and as I have said before, there is another side of Johnny that goes unseen….
As I’ve said, 25 minutes was NOT enough time to counter what is MANY hours a week. There’s no way that, in worldly terms, I could mount as solid a case as I would like. With one hour, probably. But not 25 minutes.
It was going to be the DVD up ’til the last minute. After a lot of prayer with friends, I told them “Nope, we’re not going to show this. It can’t be this way.” That’s why I wound up going on live.
And I wasn’t out to “beat” Robertson anyway. That’s never what this has been all about. It’s Robertson and his bunch that insists on framing this as an “us versus them” situation. As if there is some tangible prize that is up for grabs.
All of this started with a question that I asked Johnny Robertson. Almost 3 months later, he still cannot answer it.
I’m going to assume at this point that for all the power and authority that he claims, that he cannot do so simple a thing as give us an answer.
If Robertson insists that this be a contest, and if he cannot even attempt to tell us how what he is doing is giving the glory to God and showing Christ’s love to others…
…if Johnny Robertson can only run and hide behind Shirley Phelps Roper’s skirt…
…then I suppose that I’ve beaten Johnny Robertson by default.
Johnny,
Why don’t you take this opportunity to answer Chris’s question? It’s pretty simple, really.
Actually, I told Chris that his question to you has made me think about what we are doing here on this blog. His question is what has motivated us to start talking among ourselves about some of the ways that this blog can better fulfill 1 Peter 2:9, which says:
We’ve already got the “peculiar people” part down, but what can we do here to better “shew forth” His praises? We’re getting some ideas in place that you should see implemented here over the next several days or weeks.
So, how about your efforts on TV, Johnny? As Chris asked, “how is what you are doing showing devotion to Jesus Christ, and demonstrating His love to others in this world?”
Randy I could say this back to you too
“Wow Faithful, besides stating you are a Christian, what evidence is there to show for it? The only thing we see is that you hold certain mental facts about the faith yet your conversation here is far from anything expected from a person of Faith.”
On June 10, 2008 at 7:19 am faithful Said:
Randy I could say this back to you too
“Wow Faithful, besides stating you are a Christian, what evidence is there to show for it? The only thing we see is that you hold certain mental facts about the faith yet your conversation here is far from anything expected from a person of Faith.”
– maybe you havent read every comment …you guys have brought my dad up more than once, even had Shawn in Texas to call me a drunk and he kept on saying things such as ” you need a drink” and other comments to the point I banned him from my blog. You guys say we shouldnt bring up Johnnys past, but then throw up mine in my face. Anyways enough of that, lets talk bible.
Faithful, I don’t think its wrong for Johnny to “expose” what he thinks is “false teaching” or people teaching error. My beef is with his approach. I don’t think its helpful to call people cowards and such to make a point and this only turns people away and makes Johnny look like a bully or something. On the other hand, I think people also fear Johnny because they can not defend their position .
I would like to see Nathan and Johnny have a written debate on here, seeing Nathan holds a Calvinistic view and Johnny does not. There are a number of issues that could be debated between them, which would be “ answering the church of Christ “ per the blogs name and would be confronting the church of Christ doctrine that Johnny teaches. Original sin, Election, baby baptism, Sprinkling baptism, Predestination, Eternal Security, Miracles, to name a few that Nathan could defend, which would be “answering the church of Christ”. We have done nothing but run in circles with everything Johnny stands for, why not take another route and debate the issues on here that you-Nathan stand for? This would be a great way to “answer the church of Christ”.
I wouldn’t be opposed to that idea. The issues I would be interested in debating that Randy mentioned:
1) Original Sin
2) Election
3) Predestination (although that is closely tied with Election)
4) Eternal Security
5) Miracles
These are subjects that have not been discussed as much on this blog. Of course, they are discussions that are aimed more at my own Christian background. How about these as other possibilities?
1) CENI
2) Lord’s Supper
3) The “church of Christ” as the only modern representation of the early church
4) Grace
5) The Gospel
We’d need to lay some ground rules, too. Which I am open to discussing.
I would have to agree.
A organized, written, debate with certain ground rules would be very interesting to say the least.
If Johnny is unwilling to have a written debate, or if there is no one else that will do so in his stead, I would be happy to do it. I would want to give my input on how it should go. There are some subjects listed that I would prefer to discuss as opposed to others, but whatever is determined to be the most beneficial is fine.
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080610132718.9c6r9ify&show_article=1
BTW, did anyone see this story today? Off topic, but I thought it was pretty cool.
On June 10, 2008 at 10:32 am DMH Said:
I would have to agree.
A organized, written, debate with certain ground rules would be very interesting to say the least.
– sounds good! I think the debates should be done without us commenting until its over…just the two debating and we comment later. If Johnny is not willing, I think Corey, Nick, Clint and others would gladly do so.
Let’s wait until we get a definitive answer from JR before we start discussing how it would operate – as far as commenting and so on is concerned. I’d want us both to be involved in ground rules from the top.
“Faithful, I don’t think its wrong for Johnny to “expose” what he thinks is “false teaching” or people teaching error. My beef is with his approach.”
So Randy where are your efforts to the work. I see you don’t like the way he goes about it , but what are you doing to by example to show us the correct way. Does Johnny need an armchair quarterback calling the plays? What are you doing personally to stop the error?
You may have to come up with a topic first and present to Johnny on here and via email. Here is one way the debate format could go, but thats up to you guys.
1 AC (1st Affirmative Constructive)
– cross-examination by 2 NC (2nd Negative)
1 NC (1st Negative Constructive)
– cross-exam by 1 AC
2 AC
– CX by 1NC
2 NC
– CX by 2AC
1NR (1st negative rebuttal)
1AR (1st affirmative rebuttal)
2NR
2AR
Each person is involved in 4 writing periods: a constructive written speech, a cross exam period where they ask questions, a cross-exam period where they answer questions, and a rebuttal speech.
Faithful, why are you so “ill” all the time? Take a deep breathe and relax – tell Johnny ” if he is willing to always give an answer for the hope in him” that he can in the future debate the issues here for all to read….lets see if he is always willing to give an answer……….like he says he is. ttyl faithful….and try to relax a bit more, we are ya friends ya know
Chris I’ve heard Johnny repeat the question to you so many times asking you about the love of Christ and NEVER heard you answer once. Since this is supposed to be answering the church and not questioning the church don’t you think the right thing to do would be to answer. What I see from you is saying you will go on tv to answer the church but then using the time to promote your own work . I’ll bet Charles won’t trust you with that again with out your agreeing to pay for time that is personally used. I saw , and I’m sure others thought the same thing, as being dishonest because you were there to talk about the church not your pathetic film.
Faithful, I will no longer go down the road you continue to take me and others…if you want to fuss, please find someone else
Randy
Randy , enemies of the cross are not my friens. I would like to be fiends but we are not at this time. It gives me no pleasure to constantly warn you , but you yourself have probably spent more time than others here with Johnny and the church studying and have rejected the truth.
“Chris I’ve heard Johnny repeat the question to you so many times asking you about the love of Christ and NEVER heard you answer once.”
He can’t even answer the question himself.
“Since this is supposed to be answering the church and not questioning the church don’t you think the right thing to do would be to answer.”
You’re telling me that the local so-called “Church of Christ” now has its own Inquisition?
Ya see faithful, here is where the “love of Christ” that I’m talking about comes into play…
A real follower of Christ would never hurt someone else in the name of Christ. Johnny Robertson, on the other hand, probably wouldn’t even be able to wait a moment before applying the thumbscrews.
“What I see from you is saying you will go on tv to answer the church but then using the time to promote your own work .”
I went on TV to ask if Robertson and his “Church of Christ” were demonstrating love of Christ toward others. And they haven’t done that yet.
“and I’m sure others thought the same thing, as being dishonest because you were there to talk about the church not your pathetic film.”
I wasn’t there to talk about “the church”. I was there to talk about CHRIST!
And that’s what I did.
As Jim Morrison retorted when told that The Doors would never again be on The Ed Sullivan Show: “Dude, we DID the Ed Sullivan Show!”
Faithful wrote -“enemies of the cross are not my friens”
– Faithful, all you have shown is that your enemies are people that do not agree with you on certain issues of scripture interpretation.
– Maybe after Nathan and Johnny are through with their debate, you and I could have a public, organized, written discussion on what he Bible teaches about false teachers, as well as the formation of the early church.
And faithful, this isn’t Chris’s blog. He’s under no obligation to “answer” anything.
But why won’t Johnny answer this question? Or you – faithful – on JR’s behalf? You could answer the question.
If it makes you feel better, you can scoot over to Chris’s blog and answer the question, since his blog doesn’t have the word “answer” anywhere in the title. It’s http://theknightshift.blogspot.com.
Jesus came to earth to save us all from our sins. He loved even the worst of sinners. He came to teach us to love one another. We should try to show and be an example of Jesus. Maybe you need to look at these things faithful because I see nothing to the likes of Jesus in you or JR.
And you know what faithful , we may not agree, but as Jesus said He came to save sinners…sinners just like you faithful. Maybe you will be able to open your eyes some day and see the beauty in Christ.
On June 10, 2008 at 11:45 am DMH Said:
Faithful wrote -”enemies of the cross are not my friens”
– Faithful, all you have shown is that your enemies are people that do not agree with you on certain issues of scripture interpretation.
– well stated DMH!
You know faithful you and others like you need to be careful about constantly saying how righteous you are. Jesus said He came to save sinners not the righteous.
Chris said
“A real follower of Christ would never hurt someone else in the name of Christ. Johnny Robertson, on the other hand, probably wouldn’t even be able to wait a moment before applying the thumbscrews.”
Chris have you ever heard of Paul? Apostle?
Listen to what he was forced to say to the Christians at Corinth
2Co 2:5 ¶ But if any have caused grief, he hath not grieved me, but in part: that I may not overcharge you all.
6 Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many.
Listen to the source of these words
2Co 2:4 For out of much affliction and anguish of heart I wrote unto you with many tears; not that ye should be grieved, but that ye might know the love which I have more abundantly unto you.
Here is more on the same subject
2Th 3:14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
Here are some words he said. I know these words would be hurtful if they were ever applied to you or me.
You see Chris in the NT God did not allow just any behavior to be tolerated.
Harmony is the result of rules
Anarchy is when you have no rules even if you say it is because you love, it is still anarchy
Anarchy defined
# “A theoretical social state in which there is no governing person or body of persons, but each individual has absolute liberty (without the implication of disorder).”[2]
# “Absence or non-recognition of authority and order in any given sphere.
The word love without a definition is just an invitation for all to make their own rule and say “I love”
Jesus defines Love
Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Chris Knight rejects this defintion on my tape out side of WGSR
youtube coming soon
Randy
Do you think it would be whatever of me to give my business to you all
Hair cut?
I just hate going where I don’t know anybody.
Chris
was it loving of me to let you know that after the show the other night I would be available as long as you wanted me to talk?
Was it loving of you to keep me occupied until after 11PM ?
Would anyone you know allow their professed antagonist to keep them occupied as long as you were allowed by me?
I didnt get ugly unkind or hateful toward you at any time.
You have done all the things you have said we do, and yet you somehow feel justified because you say are spreading hate etc.
So let me ask… if we feel that others are spreading soul damning error, is it not just as right for us to speak out as it is for you to speak out against us?
You have seemed pretty filled with ____________?
I don’t want to say it is hate because I can’t say that speaking against what you disapprove of is hate… so I will just say upset-ness
You set you were upset
your upset-ness caused you to go public to and be critical
You know, you might grow up to be Johnny if you keep it up.
“Harmony is the result of rules”
“Order must be imposed.”
“Authority must be enforced.”
“Zero Tolerance must be the rule.”
“Those not like us must be attacked.”
“The dissenters must be brought into line.”
“The trains must run on time.”
I’ve heard this before, Johnny.
I’ve seen firsthand what your mindset ALWAYS leads to, if left unchecked.
One way or another, it only leads to people being stamped wholesale with little blue numbers on their way to “the showers”.
You still cannot answer the question:
How are you showing the love of Christ with your broadcasts?
I don’t give a flying rat’s butt about any “grace” you showed me with your time last week. That doesn’t matter. You think you can buy off the question like THAT?
What does matter is: what are YOU PREACHING to the world?
Let me put it another way…
WHY SHOULD ANYONE be PERSUADED to believe in Christ after watching you and Oldfield and Fields?
WHERE IS CHRIST AT ALL in your preaching?
WHERE is the Fruit of the Spirit in your preaching and your attitude?
IT IS NOT THERE!
The “fruit” of your spirit is anger and hatred and strife.
The “fruit” of the spirit you broadcast is the same as Verdun and Bergen-Belsen and Choeung Ek and Jonestown and countless other places of sorrow.
Millions of grave cry out the testimony of your “spirit”!
No wonder you had to admit that you have no testimony of being saved by the grace of God.
Because Johnny Robertson, you do not have the Holy Spirit. It does not indwell within you.
But I am indeed now ready to profess that another spirit does dwell within you.
You preach a “church” of your own making. You do not preach Christ.
This goes far beyond a difference of belief.
You stand as one who direly opposes the finished work of Jesus Christ. You stand as a denier of Christ.
And I would dare say that your spiritual problems are considerably more severe than anything most people usually deal with.
You could be helped, if you wanted it. But you have to want it first, Johnny.
You have to let go of what it’s giving you. You have to lay down the power and the influence.
You have to give it all up, so that you can receive what matters most.
You have to surrender and die to yourself, so that Christ might at long last live within you.
But you are denying Christ, Johnny. And the longer you do that, the greater the hold it will have on you.
Johnny Robertson, why don’t you admit to the entire world what we already know about you?
There’s no point in hiding it anymore. Lots of people are suspecting it anyway.
johnny,
You always talk about how people run from you and are scared of you. When Jesus came he came humbly. The Bible describes him as a humble man. To me this is a man people felt safe to come to. He did not go around trying to dig up dirt on every person he could. He spoke the Word of God and many people heard and believed. He looked for the goodness in men. You do not show any of this. Where is your compassion. You say you do not hate, but that’s all you can show. You have become so full of hate that if Christ is living in you, the Love of Christ cannot show through.
On June 10, 2008 at 12:38 pm johnny Said:
Randy
Do you think it would be whatever of me to give my business to you all
Hair cut?
I just hate going where I don’t know anybody.
– Johnny,you are good with the riddles, but do as you please. You think this bothers me, come on now. You want to ignore the offer Nathan has and wish to take it out on me – thats called displacement. Deal with it or dont, youre the one who says “be ready always to give an answer” so either live by your words or dont…doesnt matter to me. Corey already said if you didnt want to that he would…
faithless,
god be merciful to me a sinner.
a sinners prayer………… wheres my thousand?
john still hasnt given it to you yet huh?
…..does he still love brian edwards?…… what about me? …………………………………
…………you? run away faithless while you still can.
and bring my cash!
lee
DMH , I never said anyone here was my enemy. I said they were enemies of the cross.
Php 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
I sad they were not my friends but I wish they were
Lee where is your brain? We have gone over this time and time agian. The man in the TEMPLE was not an alien sinner. Duh………
truth,
Mt 15:13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
(KJV)
Chris, said “The “fruit” of your spirit is anger and hatred and strife.”
Chris if that is what you feel that’s your fruit of your false religion. How can you blame that on anyone but yourself.
1 Corinthians 13:12 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
I have to ask, what does this passage mean to you? To me it means that I see the truth of God and his word in a limited ability distorted by my fears, my bias’ and my feelings and thoughts as a man. It tells me that while I may have some idea of God and his word that I do not fully see the truth not because I am following wrong teachings but that I see only part of the truth.
Could it be that God allows us each to see part of the truth so that we can share them with each other and gain from each other? That it is in fact a test to see if we really love each other.
Submission to authority only begins when you disagree with that authority, until then they are only doing what you think is the correct path. Love also does not show itself until the one you love gives you nothing in return. Jesus’ death on the cross while being mocked is an example of such love, while they taunted him he asked God to forgive them, thus showing true love.
If I were an unsaved person and read this blog, would I see love here? Agape love can only come when the one you love is doing harm to you, then you have to put away your feelings, your pain and do what is best for them. Walking in unity will never come on this planet because we agree on every scripture and passage, it will only come through knowing what our mission here is and following through on it. Love God, Love People, tell the good news!
America is falling away from God because we have gotten off mission and forgotten we see only in part and that scares those who have a need to be right. It is a need we all have and the god of this world with use that weakness to do great harm. Each time we step away from our mission and get into a debate of who is right we weaken the cause of Christ.
Jesus said when being accused of being in league with the god of this world:
Mark 3:25 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
25And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
As the nation falls away from the church and goes its own way, I have to ask, could it be that this has been caused because we have divided God’s house because of our fear of being wrong?
walking in love said
If I were an unsaved person and read this blog, would I see love here?
how do you know what you would think if you were lost please tell me
Try saying that to a minority
“if I were a minority I wouldn’t complain I would be tahnkful… blah blah blah”
You don’t have a clue what you would do.
This is the kind of ignorance we love to expose.
The lost talk to us all the time. They tell us that the confusion in religion is the thing that bothers them the most. The pretending that all are going to heaven but then they congregate up in different buildings each Sunday and argue about “methods” they all say do not really matter to Jesus.
Well if they dont matter then why dont you DROP it.
Corey am I going to hell bcause of my style?
No?
Then why dont you shut up about it and let Jesus word be preached by someone wh happens to differ from “your opinion” of how it should be done.
Talk about arrogant.
Do it Corey’s way or yo are not nice!
My work is done. Johnny Robertson provided an answer to my question after all.
And that answer is, from Johnny himself:
“We are here to defeat destroy you…”
http://theknightshift.blogspot.com/2008/06/johnny-robertson-sez-we-are-here-to.html
Thank you, Johnny.
The record will reflect this long after the memory of whatever happened in the past few days on WGSR has faded.
And people in years to come will know that Johnny Robertson of the Martinsville Church of Christ declared that it was his God-ordained mission to “defeat (and) destroy you”.
Forever, Johnny. Forever. You can’t take that back.
I said the other night that Christianity is not a competition.
But you made it one. And then you made the mistake of framing this as a short-term debate for your own glory…
…while you, quite foolishly, took on – if God might indulge me to boast this one time – a historian. Someone with a much more long-term perspective of things.
In a battle of wits, Johnny Robertson, you came unarmed.
And your own words now testify against you. Forever.
I did not come seeking a “victory” of any sort. I just wanted an answer to a question. This day, the Lord has doubly blessed me.
Again, thank you Johnny.
Forever.
Johnny, please explain what you meant by that statement – maybe you meant it another way.
June 10 Chris Knight said
I wasn’t there to talk about “the church”. I was there to talk about CHRIST!
Chris, please read this:
Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
T.D.,
Robertson’s brand of “Church of Christ” is not the church of Jesus Christ.
It is a “church” unto itself. For its own glory, not for God’s.
Kinda like that “body of believers” you worship with Chris?
John the unsaved can see love we all see love and know when love is not shown, just smack your dog and see if he thinks its love?
Now I am sorry if I have offended you or anyone else here, I only wished to bring things for a third point of view and perhaps get above the fight that is taking place.
Loving your enemies is not easy, especially when it is a fellow believer in Christ. We hold higher expectations from them then we do the world. Many leave the Church because that expectation is not fulfilled.
I do know this, the truth I see today in the word is only a step along many new truths. Much like the church in the 50s and 60s and even a few today that did not stand up for the African American rights and equality because they did not see the truth of the parable of the Good Samaritan as a truth about racism. In it Jesus used the Samaritan as the one who was good because the Jewish people hated them for being half breeds.
Mathew 18
32″Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
35″This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.”
Do any of us really understand the debt we owe to Jesus? And are you willing to allow this disagreement cancel that forgiveness?
Many underestimate what the transition from Greek to the King’s English has done to cloud things. I very much wish to study the original Greek and Hebrew does anyone have any recommendations on how to go about doing that?
I do know that some things were lost in that transition, the dialog between Jesus and Simon Peter, Jesus asks if he loves him, yet in the Greek the words that Jesus uses for love and Peter uses are different. Agapē and Philia and the translation does not bring those two out properly. I found a small greek traslator online. Go look at John 21:15 here http://www.greekbible.com/index.php Now I have no idea how accurate this site is in its translations but I have had a pastor preach to us once there were differences in the two words they both used.
So here is Jesus talking about Godly love and Peter responding in brotherly love and Jesus asking him again and a third time. Could it be that Jesus was asking him to come to a new level in love and Peter was unwilling to go there at that time?
And if so, you don’t see that in the English translation of the King James.
So I would suggest that the language itself has brought confusion into our seeking of the truth, that Greek and English do not relate well with each other and that there are subtle differences in the Greek that we may be missing.
What do you think?
“Kinda like that “body of believers” you worship with Chris?”
sigh…
Somewhere on the streets of London, so far as I know there is still a small group of believers that have no formal name, or church charter, or declaration of doctrine other than what they are led to believe from scripture and the Holy Spirit, and they do MORE to demonstrate the love of Christ than anything that I’ve seen happen on these pages. And I will certainly include myself among everyone else here, for what I have had to do to try to break through to people here that LEGALISM IS NOT A MEASURE OF FAITH!!!
Does not our inclination to fixate someone in a denomination speak volumes about how MUCH of our life we have yet to surrender to God?
“our inclination to fixate someone in a denomination…”
I’m not inclined to fixate someone in a denomination. By not distinguishing yourself as opposed to or apart from denominationalism you become a part of it. Jesus said one either gathers or scatters, but you want to play the middle ground.
WHY ARE YOU IGNORING THE OFFER? JOHNNY DONT WANT TO DEBATE CLINT?
“just smack your dog and see if he thinks its love?”
Would you smack your dog for biting your child?
You should reason through the consequenses of your arguments before you espouse them. Just because someone is offended doesn’t necessarily mean the action that caused the ‘offense’ is bad.
You all are the embodiment of love without knowledge, which actually isn’t love anyway
Joey,
Could you give the Scripture reference for where Jesus said one either gathers or scatters?
Thank you.
Matthew 12: 30″He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters
Matthew 12:30
He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
Thanks Corey and Joey.
Sure
“By not distinguishing yourself as opposed to or apart from denominationalism you become a part of it.”
Then let me distinguish myself, for your satisfaction…
I am neutral on the issue of denominationalism.
I do have a problem with one denomination – including a denomination that swears and declares that it is not a denomination – declaring that it is the sole custodian of salvation.
To say that I am “denominational” because I am not absolutely for it or against it is, well… silly. It’s like being told that you MUST choose to vote EITHER Democrat OR Republican, or else you are not a real American.
Corey,
“Matthew 12: 30″He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters”
I appreciate the scripture reference. But I also do not understand how this could possibly have anything to do with denominationalism, as Joey suggests.
“To say that I am “denominational” because I am not absolutely for it or against it is, well… silly. It’s like being told that you MUST choose to vote EITHER Democrat OR Republican, or else you are not a real American.”
That’s not even a parallel Chris. What does being a partisan politician (or voter) have to do with salvation? I can’t help what Jesus said. The principle stands. In the context of Matthew 12 Jesus also said a kindom divided against itself cannot stand. How will christianity prevail against Islam or any other false relision when its all divided? Remaining neutral means you are a divider. Jesus said it, not me. Abraham Lincoln would have considered you a divider. He understood the principle.
# John 17:21
that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.
That is part of Jesus’ prayer for unity of His followers. Now, how unified are Jesus and the Father? Some? A little? Mostly? They are completely unified and that is the exact opposite of denominationalism. Denominations are divided, teaching all differing manners of doctrine. Is that what the Father and Son do, teach different doctrines?
Denominations are completely contrary to Jesus’ prayer, so it isn’t something that a Christian can be “neutral” about. There is either unity like Jesus and the Father or there is dis-unity. In America we have more options than Republican or Democrat. In Christianity there are only 2 options. That is what Joey is getting at – there are those that hold to the doctrines of Christ (who gather with Him) and those that hold to all manners of doctrine (those who scatter).
Amen “walkininlove”!!! VERY good points, especially this one:
“Each time we step away from our mission and get into a debate of who is right we weaken the cause of Christ.”
Too bad Johnny is too blinded by his evil agenda to see the truth and love in what you said! I pray he someday does and people will get off of his bandwagon before it is too late.
That was supposed to be “walkinginlove” 😉
…the context isn’t speaking about denominations. One thing you will learn Chris about these local guys is that they pull passages from their context and make then applicable to their system of beliefs.
“the context isn’t speaking about denominations…”
a denomination IS a division
Now, how unified are Jesus and the Father? Some? A little? Mostly?
-Corey, its clear on here that you guys are not unified, so maybe thats not what the verse means. I think other church of Christ people have another take on this too.
No joke, that has nothing to do with denominations…and the most important part of that entire discussion is that no matter how bad you want it to not be true-the truth still remains…churches of Christ ARE a denomination!! We have divided and divided more than the groups others choose to condemn. It is like looking at the speck in their eye without examining the plank in our own!! We speak out against division and cry out for unity; and yet some here choose to divide, segregate, and pull away from everyone condemning them…and how in the world does that create unity??!! Can you not see the contradiction, the hypocrisy, and the sheer illogical part of it all? I am not saying I am exempt from having great unity, but I will certainly not purposefully divide my brothers and sisters when that completely goes against the Bible. It is not supposed to be an “us vs. them” and that is exactly what it has become. It is utterly sad and disheartening.
You are either in Christ or you are out-simple as that. “Denominationalism” or what other crazy human word we try to stamp on it will not change that. We only continue to make this about us and not Him-when it should be ALL about Him.
seems that you guys are divided quite a bit too, but my guess is you think you are the ones right. And guess what the others think they are too.
Joey wrote in two posts that I have combined:
“Would you smack your dog for biting your child?”
You should reason through the consequenses of your arguments before you espouse them. Just because someone is offended doesn’t necessarily mean the action that caused the ‘offense’ is bad.”
Oh I understand where you are coming from, that it is ok to treat others who do not believe as you do even though they profess a belief in Jesus as their savior. Unlike the dog who is forced to live with his master others have freedom of choice, thus smacking them would drive them away would it not? Or certainly make your points less receivable would it not?
“You all are the embodiment of love without knowledge, which actually isn’t love anyway”
Joey since you seem to have more knowledge then I based on the above statement, and I will not dispute this, what methods have you used to research the original Greek?
Thanks!
Thanks for being honest Kat !
Joey since you seem to have more knowledge then I based on the above statement, and I will not dispute this, what methods have you used to research the original Greek?
What’s that got to do with the price of beans in this discussion? I have a concordance if that’s what you are asking. I saw your post about agape, phileo, et. al. What’s your point?
“How will christianity prevail against Islam or any other false relision when its all divided?”
And why should we be determined that Christianity “prevail” against Islam or any other “religion” at all?
If THAT is what we think is our purpose as followers of Christ, then we are completely screwed.
Christianity is not now, and was never intended, to be something we wield as a weapon against the rest of the world. And do you know why?
Because doing so makes us exactly like the rest of the world.
Yet for almost 2000 years, we have consistently fallen into that trap.
Our mission as followers of Christ is to share His love to others, because we love them and not because we want to have dominion over them by way of our faith. Considering “false religions” as a factor in that corrupts our purpose into something that God can’t bless.
If this is what very many Christians hold to, then maybe it is good and proper that Christians are yet divided. Lord only knows what evil we might do if we were to actually come together.
pernell you said:
“One thing you will learn Chris about these local guys is that they pull passages from their context and make then applicable to their system of beliefs.”
There is nothing new under the sun…
Chris wrote:
And why should we be determined that Christianity “prevail” against Islam or any other “religion” at all?
Good grief. Are you serious? How about wanting those in the false religions to go to Heaven? Is that not a good enough reason to want Christianity to prevail?
HA!…are you serious? How about because a false religion sends people to hell?
You’re doing well Christ. Keep that up and maybe your cronies here what youre made of. If no one else on here will oppose that statement then you ought to be ashamed. Is that all you think of the potency of the gospel Chris?
I saw your 10 minutes of fame on TV. Used what, one scripture the whole time?
Christ=Chris…again
The problem with “unity” is that it is not a virtue, per human nature. It is, at most in this fallen world, a utopian ideal.
Every time… every time… that a people come together for sake of “unity”, there has been only disaster. Because what is at first a mutual understanding becomes a gangrenous wound: the question of WHO it is who will determine WHAT constitutes “unity”.
How many of you want to be “united” in a church that is dominated by someone like Johnny Robertson or James Oldfield or Norm Fields?
They don’t preach Christ. They preach “unity” in the name of Christ.
So it is that in their own way, they adhere to the old paths of a religion that dates far beyond Palestine A.D. The one that cried out for “unity” as men dared raise a tower to Heaven itself.
As I said, there is nothing new under the sun…
I think we al keep making that mistake…I count count the times I have typed Christ meaning to type Chris
“How about wanting those in the false religions to go to Heaven? Is that not a good enough reason to want Christianity to prevail?”
To want that we must love them in the first place. In spite of how many of them no doubt hate us.
It requires dying unto self.
And I don’t really know how many of us have come to understand that.
So, Jesus prayed for a Utopian ideal that would be harmful to us if we strive for it?
“The problem with “unity” is that it is not a virtue, per human nature. It is, at most in this fallen world, a utopian ideal.”
Chris, you read too many Orwell novels or something.
“How about because a false religion sends people to hell?”
Religion has never sent anyone to Hell.
Rejecting the grace of God is what has always sent people to Hell.
And until you understand the difference between the two, I don’t know how better to explain it.
I guess Jesus was foolish for preaching a utopian ideal? Where is the Bible in that kind of statement?
“So, Jesus prayed for a Utopian ideal that would be harmful to us if we strive for it?”
Jesus prayed to His Father that we might have unity.
At no time did He tell us that we alone could pull it off.
True unity is possible with God. True unity is not possible with men.
“Chris, you read too many Orwell novels or something.”
No. Just a historian, who is all too aware of the dark potential of human nature when bereft of healthy measures of both fear of God and love of fellow man.
“Religion has never sent anyone to Hell.
Rejecting the grace of God is what has always sent people to Hell.”
So then the Muslim accpets the Grace of God?
Honestly,
I do not see how Matthew Chapter 13 addresses denominationalism in anyway.
Also, I do not see how disagreeing with a human’s scripture interpretation on a certain issue makes you an “enemy of the cross”, a “false teacher”, or someone that has chosen not to adhere to Christ’s teachings.
It seems some people are viewing Christianity in this manner:
“The Lord’s Church” (i.e. everyone that agrees with me and my historical religious movement)
Vs.
“The world” (i.e. Catholics, Orthodox, Methodists, Baptists, Cocs that use IM, Cocs that accept denominations, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, people that don’t agree with me about the book of Revelation, Liberals, Democrats, Satan Worshipers, the 700 club, Pepperdine University, etc.)
As long as this continues the conversation can only go so far.
accepts
The peace that Christ gives is to be the judge in your hearts; for to this peace God has called you together in the one body” (Col. 3:1415, TEV).
It is love that unites, not doctrinal agreement. Love perfectly unites that which is divided. Even if people should reach perfect agreement on all the points of doctrine, this would not mean perfect unity. Only love made for perfect unity, and this when folk may be quite diverse in their interpretation of much of the Bible. Stone and Campbell even differed on the nature of Christ, but they did not allow this to rupture their fellowship in Christ. Love united them!
“So then the Muslim accpets the Grace of God?”
Sure, if he/she wants to.
Just as a Christian is free to accept the grace of God, if he/she wants to. Or a Jew or anyone else.
You’re still trying to frame this within context of “factions”, aren’t you?
sigh…
I don’t know what else to say, then. Not until you can break your mind of the belief that it is RELIGION which saves us.
God established one time already that it wasn’t so, did He not?
“It is love that unites, not doctrinal agreement”
Acts 2:42 – And they continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine</em? and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
Try again
This just keeps getting better and better. Now its all coming out.
they done so from love
try again
“they done so from love
try again”
I’m sorry, where is that?
I just have to make sure I understand this…
So you are saying that a Muslim can ‘accept’ God’s grace and remain in the muslim faith?
DMH,
And even if all Christians WERE united under the “Church of Christ” banner, it would only be a short matter of time before THAT would be broken into factions, and each one declaring that it and it alone was the “true” Church of Christ, and then waging war on all the other “heretical” splinter factions.
Let’s suppose that somehow, Robertson and Oldfield and Fields brought all of the professed followers of Christ in North Carolina and Virginia into their “Church of Christ”. And that by some fluke, all of this happened within the space of a month.
Within two years, Norm Fields would be assassinated by goons acting under orders from James Oldfield and then Johnny Robertson would denounce Oldfield as a heretic at the Church of Christ United Conference. Riots would break out and both Robertson and Oldfield would wind up dead. Then the deacons would begin carving out their own little empires before declaring war on each other. One year later, there would be nothing left of the Church of Christ and the entire region would be laid waste.
Because without sincere and earnest love, the human lust for power would dominate and destroy all of it, regardless of how much the purpose had been “unity in Christ”.
No one said we don’t suppose to follow the apostles doctrines….but what you want is everyone to follow what you “think” the apostles doctrines are and if/when someone disagrees, you puff up with pride as if you have it all figured out. You missed the point totally. Try again Joey. Since a new born in Christ lacks the same understanding as you, and doesn’t understand the doctrines – are you united in doctrine or in Christ?
And Chris, pleaee dont say you really believe that Muslsms are going to be in heaven.
Chris,
Is Christ not the only way to heaven?
Therefore, any other “religion” that denies this cannot get one to heaven.
Denying the grace of God may send one to hell…but grace came through Christ.
John 1:17 – grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 1:4 – I give thanks to my God always for you because of the grace of God that was given you in Christ Jesus,
Ephesians 6:24 – Grace be with all who love our Lord Jesus Christ with love incorruptible.
2 Timothy 1:9 – who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,
Rejecting Christ is rejecting God’s grace.
“So you are saying that a Muslim can ‘accept’ God’s grace and remain in the muslim faith?”
That’s ridiculous. It would be impossible to accept the grace of God through His Son Jesus Christ, and still adhere to the faith of Islam. It would be like two electrons occupying the same point in space.
I am saying though, that if a person accepts God’s grace through Christ, it doesn’t really matter what they are called.
I don’t know if it even matters to God. If it did, anyone merely calling himself or herself a “Christian” would be saved. Do you believe this is so?
“That’s ridiculous. It would be impossible to accept the grace of God through His Son Jesus Christ, and still adhere to the faith of Islam”
So then religion DOES matter? Is that what you are saying now? That your religion CAN send you to hell?
“I am saying though, that if a person accepts God’s grace through Christ, it doesn’t really matter what they are called.”
Ok. I’m going to start calling you Chris the muslim. How’s that? Abu Chris. Has a nice ring to it.
“And Chris, pleaee dont say you really believe that Muslsms are going to be in heaven.”
I believe that those who are earnestly seeking for the Kingdom of Heaven, will find the Kingdom of Heaven, in keeping with the promise of our Lord.
I know of no other way to say this.
“Ok. I’m going to start calling you Chris the muslim. How’s that? Abu Chris. Has a nice ring to it.”
Sure. Whatever makes you happy.
So Nathan…You picked a good cohort in Chris the Muslim. You happy you defending him now? Any one can profess any name and go to heaven.
Acts 4:12
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
I don’t think any of us are in a position to dictate to God as to how he should judge people’s souls.
Especially a billion people we have never met and who may know nothing about the Bible except what they are told by their Mullahs and Ayatollahs.
Thanks for that point DMH the Muslim
Y’all are demonstrating the degree to which you will stand for nothing
Joey,
I am sorry, I did not realize I was speaking to God’s Judgment Day helper.
Hope that works out well for you.
Joey,
You still do not understand.
You are trusting in the doctrine of a church and NOT the teaching of scripture and especially of Christ.
Don’t worry, there is hope for you as there is for anyone. It’s a beautiful thing to break free of hyper-legalism. Who’s to say that I haven’t gone through it? It’s beautiful, but it’s hard. I’m not saying that you are not saved at all, just that: you’re shackled to something. No doubt it’s comfortable where you are. But you can be somewhere MUCH better, if you want it.
And it really doesn’t bother me if you call me “Chris the Muslim” from now on. I’ve been called worse things. My identity is already established in Christ and knowing that is enough to suffice.
So what’s your answer to Acts 4:12 DMH? I didnt write the Book.
come on guys, Jesus made it clear that he is the way, the only way !! Joey is on point with this !
Thanks pernell. At least someone is willing to defend the gospel.
This is getting ridiculous.
Y’all have fun. I’m off to get a sandwich, finish a client’s project and then practice for our musical.
To quote the illustrious William Shatner:
“GET A LIFE!” 😛
Chris the Muslim,
Is a Muslim like yourself going to Heaven or not?
Chris said: Every time… every time… that a people come together for sake of “unity”, there has been only disaster.”
Chris, have you read your Bible?
In Act 15 they DID NOT have unity. Some were INSISTING that people be circumcised before becoming a Christian.
Ac 15:6 ¶ And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. 7 And when there had been much disputing,
the conclusion…
Ac 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:… Ac 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: 25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
They left IN UNITY, speaking the same thing
Can that not happen today?
Joey, why so combative? Were you trained to be this way?
It is love that unites us-it is Christ that unites us-not a line of doctrine, not a particular religion, not a set of rules-it is LOVE!! We are motivated by love to obey God’s commands. His two greatest commands were to love Him and love our neighbor!!
The only way you cannot see this or accept this very Biblical idea is because you choose not to.
You cannot boil Christ and what He did down to a religion-it is impossible. God does not see labels or outward appearances-He looks the HEART.
Correction: He looks AT the HEART.
Jesus is the only way to heaven Chris, and to deny that is to deny Christ. Maybe you are not being clear enough ( I hope ). Are you saying people can get to heaven by other means than Christ?
“Joey, why so combative?”
You think I’m combative because it upsets me that Jesus died on the cross for the lost and someone has the gall to say it doesnt matter what you are called? What’s wrong you?
Pernell,
Chris is being no more ‘un-clear’ than he always is. Say a bunch of everything so that he is accountable for nothing.
I’m actually glad Chris the Muslim is saying what he is. Maybe someone honest will see him as the phoney he is.
Joey,
Just because you or me (infallible people) read and believe Acts 4:12, you think we are qualified to judge the secrets of men’s souls?
“Joey, why so combative?”
I recall a certain man on his first preaching trip to Jerusalem making a not so small distrubance in the temple with a whip (Joh 2)
The same man got back home and made people so mad they wanted to kill him (Luk 4)
That same man also said “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 36 And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household. (Matt 10:34-36)
Sounds a little combative to me. Anyone else??
Of course I mean fallible.
btw, that combative man was Jesus in case no one picked up on it
DMH the Muslim,
“Just because you or me (infallible people) read and believe Acts 4:12, you think we are qualified to judge the secrets of men’s souls?”
When you or me read the (infallible) Bible that God wrote to be understood, then I can judge someone’s fruit of their behavior. But I dont know what secret’s you are referring to? Is it a secret that a Muslim like yourself denies Christ?
Joey said:
“Joey, why so combative?”
You think I’m combative because it upsets me that Jesus died on the cross for the lost and someone has the gall to say it doesnt matter what you are called? What’s wrong you?
I am not talking about that-I am talking about your denial that love unites us, and insisting it is all about doctrine and religion-when it is CLEARLY not. It is ALL about Christ and wearing His name. Did you even read the rest of my post? How can you deny that it is love that causes unity, when before you made a statement like this?:
“You all are the embodiment of love without knowledge, which actually isn’t love anyway”
I don’t think you even understand what you are saying. You might want to check out the entire chapter 13 of 1 Corinthians, especially at the top where it talks about being without love is like a clanging gong or a resounding cymbal.
Katherine,
Is it unloving to say a Muslim will go to hell? Or do I need to start calling you a Muslim too?
“They left IN UNITY, speaking the same thing
Can that not happen today?”
I doubt it, because who among us can claim to be the “apostles and elders” described in Acts 15:6?
Can you, James?
I know that I could not claim such a thing.
Perhaps such “unity” was a miracle of the time, which from what I understand is not something that the so-called “Church of Christ” believes is possible anymore, since miracles passes away with the apostles.
In which case, insisting on this “unity” is a violation of Church of Christ doctrine.
Please, James-don’t even try to compare Joey or yourself to Jesus. He was motivated by LOVE-that is not AT ALL what I see here.
You guys just keep missing the ENTIRE point. Ugh.
Katherine,
You love a muslim so much I guess he can go to heaven denying Christ, right?
Ugh
Chris the Muslim,
Are you going to answer my question for everyone’s viewing? Does a Muslim go to heaven as a Muslim or not?
You guys just HAVE to label people don’t you, or it ruins your little agenda? You can’t just see people as followers of Christ-you have to attach titles and labels to put them in categories so you think you have the power to condemn and belittle. It makes you feel better to sit in the corner and point fingers; while you sit on your pride all smug and righteous. Pride comes before a fall, you know.
It is pretty disgusting.
Christ will not accept those who deny Him. He will accept those who accept Him-it is as simple as that.
Joey did you see my question?
I was going through a search for the word love, interesting that Jesus seems to only use the word that Simon Peter uses when talking about the hypocrites praying or loving people more them God. Mathew 6:24, Mathew 10:37, also Mathew 23:6 talking about loving the place of honor , and he uses agape in everything else, I’m only up to Mathew so far.
So Joey why does Jesus use the one word and Simon Peter the other? And why are they both translated as love without any note to the differences in their meanings?
Thanks to anyone who can answer that question for me. And this is on topic simply because the translation from one language to another plays into the division of the body.
So then a muslim will go to hell?
Joey said:
“Katherine,
Is it unloving to say a Muslim will go to hell? Or do I need to start calling you a Muslim too?”
Wow, Joey…this is really inappropriate, and not helpful for your case whatsoever. Don’t forget that the stuff about knowing a believer by their fruits applies to you, too.
So Joey I will ask it again so you can see it, I hope, where did you and how did you study Greek?
And for that matter has anyone else here studied the original Greek?
So Joey why does Jesus use the one word and Simon Peter the other? And why are they both translated as love without any note to the differences in their meanings?
I already said I know what you are referring to. Agape, Phileo, etc. I studied that when I first obeyed. Jesus asked Peter to die for him and Peter answered back with affectionate love.
What’s your point?
“Wow, Joey…this is really inappropriate, and not helpful for your case whatsoever. Don’t forget that the stuff about knowing a believer by their fruits applies to you, too.”
Thanks for the scolding. So you think a muslim is heaven bound too I see. This is pitiable. None of you even have enough fervor to shame someone who wont defend the faith against the false muslim religion
Thank you, ct for your comment.
It is true-it’s almost like these guys forget that they have fruits that are being judged, too. It is like they think they are exempt from it-but can go around being rude and judgmental-belittling and calling names, and somehow it is justified in Jesus’ name. Pretty irrational, really.
Joey,
I am not God. You are not God. Johnny Robertson or ANYone else on this earth is NOT GOD. I would never even want to attempt to try and play His role because it is NOT what we are called to do. I don’t know why you guys choose to sit on His throne throwing out judgment to anyone who does not agree with you. We are called to love His people-not judge them. That is the main problem with you guys’ views-you treat people the way you view God treating them, and that is not who He is.
God is the judge. You are not. The end. 🙂
Joey,
Seriously…what are you doing?
Did you not see my comments with Scriptures to Chris about Christ being the only way to heaven? And about how any “religion” that denies that denies God’s grace?
You don’t know me or my beliefs, but you are still so quick to retort…and all because I was trying to point out some inappropriate behavior.
Is it Christ-like to name-call? Are you acting like Christ right now?
“When you or me read the (infallible) Bible that God wrote to be understood, then I can judge someone’s fruit of their behavior. But I dont know what secret’s you are referring to? Is it a secret that a Muslim like yourself denies Christ?”
– It is a good thing that God will have Joey at his right side to “assist” him in his righteous Judgment.
– I have to admit, this is first time I have ever been called a Muslim before. (Guess I will have to give up pork)
Joey,
How many Muslims do you think you could convert by screaming at them that they are going to Hell? My guess is that it would be about as effective as an Iranian cleric telling you the same thing.
Joey, Clint does not believe that, he was merely pointing out the attitude you guys have. How does Johnny put this in you anyways? Jason use to be the same way – but after he left, he said he regreted the way he acted towards people. Clint is a church of Christ preacher Joey.
Joey,
You are proving your point once again-twisting and manipulating Clint’s words to mean something completely different than what he said. Is there some kind of training school for this?
You just DO NOT GET IT. Your view of Jesus, of Christianity, of church, etc is skewed. All you can see are labels-you are so wrapped up in that that Jesus has faded into the background.
He needs to be brought back to the forefront.
“Is it Christ-like to name-call”
Yes.
Mt 23:17Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?
Mt23:33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Now, When did I call anyone a fool or a snake? All I did was call two of you Muslims because you think it doesn’t matter what you are named.
Oh my-this is a whole other level of craziness.
For real, there has got to be a school that trains this idealogy into these guys? They all spout the same thing-so it has got be coming from somewhere. Is there an underground “school of Johnny” somewhere?
Joey,
So, Jesus was name-calling, was He?…or perhaps simply describing who they were? And an honest description at that. I don’t believe anyone here is a Muslim, but you have claimed it…with an attitude of contempt no less…of about 3 or 4 people now.
I do think it matters what we are named. I do think it matters that we are Christians, Christ-followers. But, this is my point……you call me a Muslim and you don’t even know my position.
“Religious fervor” is not a license to respond how you see fit.
It is like if we don’t choose to pass judgment on people-we are not real Christians.
Hmmm…they will know Christians by their…what? Judgmental attitude? Righteous indignation? Puffed up pride of knowledge??
No…by their LOVE.
““Religious fervor” is not a license to respond how you see fit.”
*cowers in corner*
So what would your response be to Chris the Muslim who wont say a Muslime will go to tell then cthoward?
Yes Joey later in the chapter he does tell him how he is going to die, but in the conversation in John 21:15-21 Jesus repeatedly asks Simon Peter if he loves him, each time Peter answers with a different form of love, why is that?
And more importantly when I first read this not knowing anything of the Greek it appeared to me that Jesus was rubbing salt into his wounds because you ask a question again only if you do not believe the answer in my mind. As in are you sure, yet they each are talking about a different level of love. Jesus seems to use the version of the word that Simon uses only to promote a selfish type of love, yet he asks him for more, a love that is selfless and sacrificing and Peter appears to be unable to go that far.
So it would appear that the passage shows that Simon Peter has lost his arrogance and is unwilling to commit to the higher form because of his past.
So if any of what I said above makes sense how is it that the English translation misses all of that and simply lists it as love?
And could it be that because there is a subtle difference in how each of the two words is defined that the translation itself is partially to blame for the division in the body? That the language themselves are to blame, at least in part, for the misunderstanding of the word.
So Joey how much Greek did you study and where did you study it at?
Thanks for the responses so far kind sir!
tell=hell
And I would ask the same question of anyone else here, how much Greek have you studied? And does the above make sense to you in any way?
Thanks!
“So if any of what I said above makes sense how is it that the English translation misses all of that and simply lists it as love?”
The english language isn’t as expressive as Koine Greek. That’s why we have and use concordances. It’s not like we are at a disadvantage. Scholar’s spent years of work to make sure we had the necessary tools.
“So Joey how much Greek did you study and where did you study it at?”
I’m not even going to profess to be astute at greek. I just use my concordance and various other tools when needed.
Joey,
I guessed you missed what I said to Chris…so here it is, word for word:
“Chris,
Is Christ not the only way to heaven?
Therefore, any other “religion” that denies this cannot get one to heaven.
Denying the grace of God may send one to hell…but grace came through Christ.
John 1:17 – grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 1:4 – I give thanks to my God always for you because of the grace of God that was given you in Christ Jesus,
Ephesians 6:24 – Grace be with all who love our Lord Jesus Christ with love incorruptible.
2 Timothy 1:9 – who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,
Rejecting Christ is rejecting God’s grace.”
You don’t have to name-call to stand up for Truth. It is not cowering to resist the urge to resort to name-calling. In fact, it takes a lot more courage and patience to respond firmly but lovingly…
Titus 3:1-2 (ESV)
1 Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work,
2 to speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy toward all people.
Titus 2:7-8 (ESV)
7 Show yourself in all respects to be a model of good works, and in your teaching show integrity, dignity,
8 and sound speech that cannot be condemned, so that an opponent may be put to shame, having nothing evil to say about us.
Great points, “walkinlove”-something I have not heard about in that passage. Thanks for passing it along.
It is true that it is difficult to completely say without a doubt that we know what certain passages are saying-sometimes you have to dig deeper-to the original meaning, background, cultural influences, bigger picture.
I studied a little Greek in graduate school, but not enough to claim knowledge of the Greek language. It is very interesting, though! Hebrew is a WHOLE other story!! 😉
Yes, I did not see your response to Chris. My apologies. I appreciate your response to him.
Joey,
Apology accepted…and one more thing to consider…
Just because Jesus called the Jewish leaders fools and vipers does not mean we can do the same. He also said that we are in serious danger of hell if we call people fools. [Matt 5:22] This is because Jesus was perfect…but we are not. We have a tendancy to react out of rivalry, envy, prejudice, bias, or any number of other judgment-clouding emotions.
I would not be too hasty with the name-calling…even if you think it to be an appropriate description.
Thank you for considering these things…all that we’ve discussed.
“Just because Jesus called the Jewish leaders fools and vipers does not mean we can do the same”
I disagree. Stephen (who was not Jesus) called the Jews stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart. People who refused to acknowledge and opposed the truth. If Chris refuses to acknowledge that a religion like Islam, or any ‘religion, for that matter can send the masses to hell, then I’m going to call a spade a spade.
So you use a Greek concordance? I find mine to be limited in nature because it does not translate every word.
Though this is not from scripture I believe if very much fits the current church internal war:
ELEPHANT AND THE BLIND MEN
Once upon a time, there lived six blind men in a village. One day the villagers told them, “Hey, there is an elephant in the village today.”
They had no idea what an elephant is. They decided, “Even though we would not be able to see it, let us go and feel it anyway.” All of them went where the elephant was. Everyone of them touched the elephant.
“Hey, the elephant is a pillar,” said the first man who touched his leg.
“Oh, no! it is like a rope,” said the second man who touched the tail.
“Oh, no! it is like a thick branch of a tree,” said the third man who touched the trunk of the elephant.
“It is like a big hand fan” said the fourth man who touched the ear of the elephant.
“It is like a huge wall,” said the fifth man who touched the belly of the elephant.
“It is like a solid pipe,” Said the sixth man who touched the tusk of the elephant.
They began to argue about the elephant and everyone of them insisted that he was right. It looked like they were getting agitated. A wise man was passing by and he saw this. He stopped and asked them, “What is the matter?” They said, “We cannot agree to what the elephant is like.” Each one of them told what he thought the elephant was like. The wise man calmly explained to them, “All of you are right. The reason every one of you is telling it differently because each one of you touched the different part of the elephant. So, actually the elephant has all those features what you all said.”
“Oh!” everyone said. There was no more fight. They felt happy that they were all right.
The moral of the story is that there may be some truth to what someone says. Sometimes we can see that truth and sometimes not because they may have different perspective which we may not agree too. So, rather than arguing like the blind men, we should say, “Maybe you have your reasons.” This way we don’t get in arguments. In Jainism, it is explained that truth can be stated in seven different ways. So, you can see how broad our religion is. It teaches us to be tolerant towards others for their viewpoints. This allows us to live in harmony with the people of different thinking. This is known as the Syadvada, Anekantvad, or the theory of Manifold Predictions.
————————————
1 Corinthians 13:12 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
As you have stated Joey to even see the truth you must have other books help you to study the bible. Yet like the blind men we all see in part we are all part of the body of Christ, each of us brings a view of Gods perfect truth to the table to share and help each of us grow.
Paul clearly says we will one day see fully as God sees the truth that is in us, God sees all the things in us we ourselves can not see and we see him only partially now, but face to face we will fully understand his truth!
Anyone, or any group, be in a single person, a church body, or a denomination, who suddenly thinks they have arrived at a perfect truth and understanding in reality make Paul a liar. And if it be that you or anyone else sees perfectly then the bible itself would have to be questioned!
So now that I have stated that the bible appears to contain errors in its translation, meaning that the full truth of the Greek did not make it into the truth of the English version, perhaps you all will take a moment and use me for target practice! I will gladly take the arrows if it serves a purpose.
Or we can get back on mission, Love God, Love People, Tell the Good News!
Besides, you asked me if Jesus called names. So I was just answering the question. Then when I do you say we shouldn’t act like him. I can’t win 🙂
Great story, “walkinlove”-I hope you stick around, you are like a breath of fresh air! 🙂
I hope what you say resonates with the hearts of those reading it.
Joey,
But you didn’t call a spade a spade. You called Chris a Muslim (along with half those who comment on this blog).
He said it didn’t matter what name you wore. So I was just playing by his rules.
“Great story, “walkinlove”-I hope you stick around, you are like a breath of fresh air!”
I agree.
If it upsets you, then tell Chris to make a stand or admit he doesn’t care about the gospel truly. He’s just all inclusive.
Thank you Katherine, I have only started looking at the Greek. But it has been an eye opener to me, both causing new questions and answering old ones.
I do know I have read passages and gotten different things from them based on where I was in my life. Thus to me the word is living, meeting me where I am and feeding me a new truth based on my walk. While it does not change, my ability to understand it changes. That change takes place until death, when we will finally see all the elephant for what it is and not just a part.
If the body of Christ could get away from their fear of being wrong and need to be the final word on the word of God then maybe we might start seeing America turn around from the path that it is headed to.
That path is going to lead to Islam or a God less nation. We are far along that path to Godlessness because a faith based religion is taught in our public schools now. Its called the Big Bang and evolution and through it a faith that man is God has taken hold.
So we can sit and fight about the differences in how the elephant looks to us, or we can start fighting the fire that is burning down our nation and unite in the mission!
Love God Love People and tell the Good news!
“Somewhere on the streets of London”
Have you been to London Chris? Tell us about your trip to europe….LOL
walkinlove,
I have to take issue with your story. You say that it means that we all bring a little truth to the table, so we ought to accept everyone because they have some of the truth. But, what about the man who saw the whole elephant? No one would ever know it was an elephant if it were not revealed in the story. Someone saw the full truth…and it turned out everyone with partial truth was wrong about the elephant. Just because one group brings some truth does not make them true.
By even telling this story you claim to have a knowledge of the truth that no one else does. You claim that you know that we all have some of the truth, but not the whole. How do you know this if you are numbered among the blind? Maybe the man who thought he grabbed the rope never grabbed part of the elephant at all.
I am not saying I have it all right. But, I am saying you might need to reconsider if you think having some of the truth is good enough when there is a whole elephant standing in the room.
I think we ought to live in harmony…don’t get me wrong…but that’s not the same as saying that everyone is right in their own way.
Uh oh. Are you judging America walkinlove?
*points to screen*
Hey look everybody. Someone just made a judgement on here…did you see that?!
oh..phht…wait. thats not a judgement. That’s an observance. But if faithful, Johnny, Joey, James, or Norm made that observance, it would be a judgement
Joey said,
“He said it didn’t matter what name you wore. So I was just playing by his rules.”
Then why did it continue with other people?
And do you think we should always play by others’ rules? Does that justify what we do? Does that correspond to the Titus passages I already posted?
And do you think we should always play by others’ rules?
No. But they do.
‘you cant judge’
‘stop pigeonholing poeple in denominations’
If it doesnt matter what name you wear, and if you can’t really judge someone by what they call themselves, then why is everyone so upset? Maybe it does matter and no of you will admit it openly.
Nope, that is just a true statement-we DO live in a VERY post-Christian society. Just look around!! Anyone can state that and it is true.
That is why it is even MORE urgent and important to stop the dividing and attacking that is found within Christianity, so that we can go show a lost and dying world the love and hope found in Jesus Christ.
If you cannot get on board with that, then I don’t know what more to say.
Joey,
Who cares what they do…you do what you’re supposed to do no matter what they do.
I won’t press you about this anymore…thanks for standing for the truth, and for listening, and for the apology. I do appreciate your desire to stand for truth.
I care what they do. Don’t you? Shouldn’t we?
Oops. didn’t realize what time it is! Gotta go.
bbl
I don’t think that is the point Joey…
It does matter that we wear the name of Christ-but more importantly that we ARE Christ to people-sharing His love and Good News to the world. It is not enough to “wear” His name-we have to also be an example of Him-being His light to a darkened world, exemplifying His fruits and going to people-loving them where they are-not with a spirit of condemnation, but of love and concern for their soul, and a strong desire to share the love and hope we have found in Him.
Dividing people into categories will do nothing but segregate even more. You accept Christ or you do not-what you do with that acceptance is what is really important.
Joey,
I said: “Who cares what they do…you do what you’re supposed to do no matter what they do.”
You said: “I care what they do. Don’t you? Shouldn’t we?”
I said I wouldn’t press anymore…and I won’t.
Let’s just say you missed the point…and let me clarify, as if you didn’t know what I was saying:
Even if every person who calls himself “Christian” in the entire world is acting like a son of Satan…you act like Christ. You speak the truth…but do it in love. [Eph 4:15] You always be prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you…but do it with gentleness and respect. [1Pt 3:15]
1Pt 3:15 should have 16 attached to it….
Great points, ct 🙂
thanks Katherine…and thanks for your comments on the issue.
As long as there are people out there like Johnny and crew there can never be unity. The only way they see unity is if everyone one agrees with what they say. That’s not going to happen because I for one want to try my best to do what the Bible tells me, God tells me to do. They try to make the Bible as they want it to be seen not as God wants it to. The things they talk about are not as God has written them to be in the Bible.
cthoward – I understand what you are saying but the one who sees the complete truth is Jesus, Paul did not see all but saw through darkened lenses. Is anyone here above Paul? I am not! I have the same limited ability to see and understand God as anyone else. I only see a different part of the complete truth.
Joey there are many instances in the bible that talk about judgment of others. Some say do so, some warn against doing so, why is that so?
cthoward I am not saying that everyone is right at all, actually I am saying we are all wrong about something. That we will be amazed at how wrong we are when we finally have the full ability to see.
But please do not mistake this for an anything goes statement or mentality on my part, It is not!
But if we can start to understand that we do see only in part then perhaps we might step away from the ledge of judgment of one another and step back into balance where iron can sharpen iron through friendship and dialog. This way we build each other up, instead of destroying each other. I believe there are warnings against such things. There is a balance between the law and mercy, that balance can only come to be if the one gifted in the law and the one gifted with mercy walk together practicing agape love for each other.
Satan got Adam and Eve focused on what they did not have, could it be he is at work today to get us to focus on the things we do not agree on, over the things we do agree on? And by doing so we have been drawn off our true mission? Love God, Love People, Tell the Good News!
“The only way they see unity is if everyone one agrees with what they say. That’s not going to happen because I for one want to try my best to do what the Bible tells me, God tells me to do. They try to make the Bible as they want it to be seen not as God wants it to. The things they talk about are not as God has written them to be in the Bible.”
This demands the question, and I don’t care if I’m slightly vulgar when I ask this…
How in the hell do Johnny Robertson, James Oldfield and Norm Fields believe that they have any degree of authority over any Christian?
What gives them the right to claim that they are over anybody?
These men are not “minsters”. They are just bullies hiding behind the Bible. And they dare call their programs “What Does The Bible Say?” and “A Word From The Lord”.
Johnny, your show is nothing about “What Does The Bible Say?” The real title is “What Does Johnny Robertson Say?”
James, if your show is really about “A Word From The Lord” then I’m the Queen of England. It’s really “A Word From James Oldfield”.
These men know jack squat about what the Bible really means. And they dare profess that they are authority figures on the subject?!
It’s like the Wizard of Oz. Except instead of one man behind the curtain there are three.
So Johnny, James and Norm, how about it: care to tell us what makes you so “special”?
“How in the hell do Johnny Robertson, James Oldfield and Norm Fields believe that they have any degree of authority over any Christian?”
– you could have toned it down some, not so sure if the above comment is something Christ would say. I understand how you feel, but maybe the wording could have been more Christ like. You are right about unity and these men do not even have the unity they claim…they want people to believe that, but they know themselves that they have “disagreements”
Chris,
I have to agree with pernell, although I also understand what you were saying and agree that it is a good question to be asked. Remember – this blog is to be a civil place, even when others may not deserve our civility.
Thanks,
Mr. Answer
I’m very careful with my wording. Have to be. And something like that, doesn’t happen very often.
But there are times when after looking for any other way to emphasize the thought, that you really aren’t left with much of a choice.
And then it comes down to not the choice of the word, but that you are compelled to convey the naked, brutal thought as best you can.
I don’t really have a problem with this, since examples abound in scripture of similar selective uses of “less polite” grammar to project a thought. Most people would not believe how unbelievably rude the word “fool” was once considered to be, f’rinstance…
Hey, thats pristine language coming from a ‘christian’…er Muslim, Chris.
Just keep up the good work. Maybe people will see how you really are.
Now, where is that love of Christ you were asking about?
Nathan,
Which one of us “coC’ers” would you have banned for talking that way? But Chris gets away with it.
Joey
I would agree with Pernell, it is through anger and taking up an offense that the door for the enemy is opened to harden our heart and hear the truth. Even God chooses to be limited in how he will work when we are offended.
Matthew 13:57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.
Mark 6:1 And he went out from thence, and came into his own country; and his disciples follow him.
2And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?
3Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.
4But Jesus, said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.
5And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.
——————-
Jesus himself could do no mighty works! So please Christ do not be offended! It is the snare of the enemy and his mighty weapon! I speak this in the love of Christ!
Sorry have not finished my coffee, added a t to Chris’ name, sorry if that offended anyone it was a mistake!
Hey CT, you gonna scold Chris for bad language like you did me for ‘namecalling’? I can defend my actions. But where in the world did Jesus or the disciples use profanity?
(examples abound in scripture of similar selective uses of “less polite”grammar)??????? <— I would love to see that.
Hey Nathan,
I have an Idea…Why dont you post that rant up on the front page so everyone can see how you allow anyone who opposes us to act like they want? And to see how Chris acts when he can’t defend himself.
You like to post comments that Johnny makes. Turnabout is fair play.
Actually Joey I have found that the ones who offend another are also the ones who are first to jump on them about that offense, thus you set a trap and then use that trap to justify your words as truth. So why is it that a method of the enemy would be used by a Christian to trap another Christian? Or anyone for that matter?
Again I see a part that Chris does not see and it is one of the things that disturbs me about CoC teachings. Jesus is clear about about tempting others to sin.
Mathew 18 1At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
2And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
3And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
6But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
7Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!
——————————
In the above passage Jesus tells us that we must be like little children, and he also warns that if anyone would cause one of those children to sin woe be un to them. So since we are those children are we not to be careful how we address another who professes Christ as his savior? He is after all a fellow child following Christ.
On June 12, 2008 at 7:52 am walkinlove Said:
Sorry have not finished my coffee, added a t to Chris’ name, sorry if that offended anyone it was a mistake!
– I think many of us here have made this same typo…
Joey wrote:
“You like to post comments that Johnny makes.”
You mean like “we are here to defeat destroy you and uplift truth”?
In the category of offensive and inflammatory language, the use of the word “hell” doesn’t come near to the communication of the desire to destroy another person.
I’m really interested that none of you “cofC’ers” have publicly rebuked Johnny for making such a statement. Did you do so privately? I have already talked with Chris, both publicly and privately about the subject of his recent comment.
Do you want to destroy us, too, Joey?
Oh and I do realize that my wording could be offensive to CoC members. I hope it will not be so and it is not my intention to do so. So I apologize beforehand if that is in fact the case and ask your forgiveness!
That’s what I thought Nathan. Your kind can do whatever.
thank you for your understanding pernell!
Let me say this again.
I have already talked with Chris, both publicly and privately about the subject of his recent comment.
Have you done the same with Johnny?
That’s what I thought, Joey.
Yes, you talked with him publicly alright. ‘Lets be civil even though they dont’ deserve it’
*pats Chris’ hand*
Let’s look at the way you publicly rebuked Johnny:
*
Oh, that’s right. You didn’t. Not even a pat on the hand.
Again, I ask. Do you want to destroy us, Joey? Do you agree with the comment that Johnny made?
I wan’t your position to be destroyed and the fact that you all are vile.
Now, you go ahead and post that statement up like I know you will, but when you do. Post what Chris said too.
On the front page that is.
Joey, that’s not what JR said. He said, “we are here to defeat destroy you and uplift truth”. Not destroy our position, not destroy our doctrine, not destroy our pianos and guitars, but US.
Do you agree with that statement?
By the way, Joey, please alert JR about the new posting on the front page.
If he actually meant destroy your person, then he would seek to do violence to you.
Use your common sense. You know what a synecdoche is.
Okay, Joey – we all know what Chris said was uncalled for, now back to the heart of the matter….Johnny boldly said he wanted to “destroy the supposed false doctrines” and he was offered by Clint a debate and he has not yet accepted. Will he boldly accept the debate as boldly as his words were? Maybe you could ask Norm to help him. Honestly, I never thought I would see the day Johnny refuse to debate. Okay, he had a legit excuse not to debate Galimore , but he doesn’t have a legitimate excuse to refuse Clint’s offer….my guess is that Johnny doesn’t want to debate the issues Clint put forth – wonder why ??? Because this will reveal “what does the bible say”
It reminds me of the story of Stanley Hauerwas – a BRILLIANT Christian theologian – who once addressed a meeting of these nice church ladies in their sanctuary.
“Every thirty seconds a child dies of starvation in Africa, and isn’t that a G**-d***ed shame?”
Those nice church ladies became horrified and aghast.
And then Hauwerwas turned it right around on them…
“Now what bothered you more: that I said ‘Every thirty seconds a child dies’ or that I said ‘G**-d***ed shame’?”
Is it the word that matters most, or the THOUGHT behind the word?
Jesus certainly believed that the thought of a man was more important than the words the man used.
Johnny Robertson, apparently in no uncertain terms, says that he is out to “destroy” those that do not believe as he does.
Some of you, it could be taken by your silence on the matter, have no problem with this.
But someone else expresses nothing really more than frustration with the unmitigated gall of these men and that they dare mount themselves up as “preachers sent by God” to be over others… and the same people jump flunky. I never suggested in any way that these three should be “destroyed”, and I like to think that I’ve grown beyond that kind of thinking.
So let us be clear here…
The thought of one person is “I will destroy you”, and this is okay.
The thought of another person is “I think you are nuts for wanting to destroy me”, and this is an irredeemable sin.
Would one be correct to assume that?
All people phase things poorly, if love believes the best then in the case of Johnny’s statement, I would say he seeks to destroy the lies that distort the truth. I strongly disagree with the methods used, but the goal should be to follow Christ’s teachings as best as we can. I believe that everyone here wants to follow Christ and do their best for the one who suffered and died for us. How dangerous a game are we playing right now?
Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Please stop the name calling everyone!
Chris, no man can destroy you, only God has that power!
walkinlove,
And an interesting note on that verse is that in the time of Christ (at the turn of what many historians now call the “Common Era”) the word “fool” was not used to describe a person who was unwise (i.e. “foolish”) in his actions and thinking.
In those days, “fool” was taken to mean something far worse. “Fool” was short for “lost fool”, as in a person for whom there was absolutely no hope for him or her to go to Heaven. It was considered among the gravest of insults.
So when Jesus warns against calling someone a fool, He is saying in a way “You should be careful not to condemn someone to Hell, when YOU YOURSELF are in just as grave a danger.”
Makes sense.
If the thought is what matters and not the word, then why did you star that out? The words indicate the thought.
And to propose that its justifiable to used profane words to illustrate a Holy point is absolutely rediculous.
James 3:11 – Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?
James 3:11
And I’ve no idea how all those smiley faces wound up in my last comment…
Paul called the Galatians foolish. They were christians.
“If the thought is what matters and not the word, then why did you star that out? The words indicate the thought.”
Shades of the problem that one friend has, who is a believer in Christ from a Jewish background and out of traditional reverence still writes the word as “G-d”.
He gets no end of grief from ignorant people who insist that he must be an atheist because he “obviously doesn’t believe in God”.
“Paul called the Galatians foolish. They were christians.”
But he never called them “fools”.
Go back and read what I wrote.
“James 3:11 – Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?”
Since this forum deals primarily with the preaching of individuals who send forth nothing but bitter water, that’s a valid question.
1 Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil
Those who teach contrary to the gospel of Christ, the Truth, do the works of the devil (2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.)
We are to do the Lord’s work
Therefore, we are to destroy the works of the devil
Boy, could a lot be said about the Galatians, honestly, I think many of the ultra-hyper-cons could be called foolish in regards to the same reason Paul called the Galatians foolish. Who has bewitched you Joey, I could ask. The Galatians were treating circumcision just as you guys do baptism.
You continue to ignore the offer from Clint. I guess Johnny “told” you too, so you better do as he says.
On June 12, 2008 at 8:45 am Chris Knight Said:
“James 3:11 – Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?”
Since this forum deals primarily with the preaching of individuals who send forth nothing but bitter water, that’s a valid question.”
I deny that what we preach is bitter, except to those who love the taste of the cotton candy version of truth you prefer.
But Chris, have you heard ALL that we preach, everytime we preach, everywhere we preach?
No
Therefore how you presume to say that all we preach is just like what you hear on TV?
If you get tired of bacon and eggs, try eating at a different time of the day
James please define what the works of the devil are in your mind?
“The Galatians were treating circumcision just as you guys do baptism.”
I’m sorry, what part of the old law was baptism in? Not even close pernell.
1 Corinthians 4:10
We are fools for Christ’s sake, but you are prudent in Christ; we are weak, but you are strong; you are distinguished, but we are without honor.
1 Corinthians 15:36
You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies;
Trying to use the word “fool” to justify your use of profanity doesn’t work. Nearly everything you’ve criticized Johnny for you’ve done the same or worse. That is hypocrisy and it makes you look “foolish”.
On June 12, 2008 at 8:53 am walkinlove Said:
“James please define what the works of the devil are in your mind?”
All of the things Satan uses to get men to not obey the Truth
Chris,
The word fool in 1 Cor 4:10 is the same as the word on Mt 5:22
Moros
You just show how you operate. You espouse all this secular stuff you call theology with not one ounce of Bible to back it up.
and your definition?
James,
Ummmm…
sigh…
There’s really no other way to put this, dude…
YOU ARE NOT JESUS!!!
And how the $%&# can you possibly believe that you ARE Jesus?!?
Go back and read those very same passages AGAIN.
It says that Jesus would destroy the works of the evil one.
It does not in any way shape or form dictate that the followers of Jesus would be the ones to destroy the works of Satan!
In fact, nowhere in the New Testament can I find any instruction for believers to “destroy” anything.
There is however Galatians 5:15, which warns that “If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.”
James, you are claiming something from the Bible that is not there. Would that make you out to be a false teacher?
And worse, you are claiming to possess something that is given only to Christ.
There is absolutely no difference between what you, James Oldfield (I’m assuming it’s you), are doing with so arrogant an assumption, and what an Islamic terrorist does when he bombs a shopping center and declares that “GOD WILLS IT!”
They are no different in that both of you are declaring that you are doing the will of God, when you are only acting according to your OWN judgment.
I trust Jesus to destroy the work of Satan. I do not trust Johnny Robertson, James Oldfield and Norm Fields to destroy the work of Satan.
“what an Islamic terrorist does when he bombs a shopping center and declares that “GOD WILLS IT!”
Wait, I thought Muslims were going to heaven?
walkinlove,
At this point I’m not seeing a lick of difference between James Oldfield and the average member of the Taliban.
They are of the same mindset. One just happens to be “Christian” and the other “Muslim”, is all.
I wondered why you had all that C4 in your trunk the other day James.
Chris,
Do you oppose evil at all?
Do you try and stop wrong?
Do you cry out against murder, abortion, drunk driving, drug abuse, child abuse, rape, etc etc?
If you do, do you think you are Jesus?
Why is it that all of you who criticize can only come up with a silly retort “you are not Jesus”
Isnt that what you tell us to be – Christ like?
So we claim we are and you say NO!!!!!!
You cant be.
Then you turn around and say YOU MUCT BE MORE LIKE CHRIST!!
You are unstable, Chris (Jas 1:8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.)
Here’s a thought for you Chris, since you like this kind of stuff –
“In a time of universal deceit – telling the truth is a revolutionary act.”
– George Orwell
Are we causing too much revolution for you?
On June 12, 2008 at 9:07 am Joey Said:
I wondered why you had all that C4 in your trunk the other day James.
Shhhhhhh!!!
I was looking for a false teacher to ambush
There is a difference between stopping acts of evil, and wanting to destroy evil-doers.
If you stop an evil action, you do so out of the hope that the one doing it will repent, and not do it again, even though there may be a penalty for what he or she did.
But if you attempt to destroy a so-called “evil-doer” without ever attempting to convince him or her of what she is doing is wrong, then you have cast judgment on that person and have set yourself up in the place of God. You end up doing a far worse sin than anything the “evil-doer” probably did.
Now, if you wanna talk “unstable”, James, look in the mirror.
And per your twisted definition of “evil-doers”, that is anyone who is not of your own peculiar denomination.
Again, a reason why no one should trust your judgment on what “evil” is.
If you really loved others, you would be trying to persuade them out of Christ’s love. But you do not have Christ’s love in your preaching.
Instead, you can only condemn and judge and try to destroy, which is of the carnal mind and not the mind of Christ.
“In a time of universal deceit – telling the truth is a revolutionary act.”
You should read his Nineteen Eight-Four, if you have not done so already.
Some of the things I’m seeing written here could have come straight out of the Ministry of Love.
On June 12, 2008 at 8:45 am Chris Knight Said:
“James 3:11 – Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?”
Chris if you want to talk about looking in the mirror, what about the above verse you quoted?
You speak of “the love of Christ” but you are the one cursing
tsk tsk tsk….
That’s ok. I get my theology from the Bible.
“All of the things Satan uses to get men to not obey the Truth”
And I would take it that you believe you obey the truth and are not one who Satan uses to get men to not obey correct?
Tell me do you sin still? I ask these things to better understand you!
not sure why anyone is arguing over profanity… what’s profane in one culture is not in others so profanity is all relative. God’s Word is not, it is absolute.
so shouldn’t that be what is discussed… His word and not what one person said that others feel was profane?
just my two cents in a discussion that I’m desperately trying to catch up on after days of being gone from the blog.
“You speak of “the love of Christ” but you are the one cursing
tsk tsk tsk….”
Again, you assume the authority to declare something as a sin, James.
Can YOU find anywhere in the Bible that what I did was a sin?
You cannot.
You can find MANY passages warning against against an unbridled tongue and that our words should be “seasoned with salt”.
But you cannot find that it is a sin.
Maybe it is a sin against “polite society” but you can’t find anywhere that God would judge anyone for expressing frustration and disbelief in another’s arrogance.
At least I did not say that I would “destroy” those who disagreed with me.
Which is what you and Johnny and Norm are doing all of the time.
Now which one of us is in more danger of the judgment?
“Tsk. Tsk. Tsk.”
I would still like James to tell us…
How do you believe that YOU are called to destroy “the works of evil” when it is not an instruction to believers in the Bible?
Joey, you mean you get your theology from what you understand the bible to mean and then you slam on others who hold a different view or lack your supposed understanding. if its all theology you profess to believe, then tell Johnny to back it with Clint’s offer – seems you guys are afraid to allow this to occur. If what you put forth is the actions of Christ then why hide it under a bush – tell Johnny he acting just like he accuses Jackie and others.
Chris said: “At this point I’m not seeing a lick of difference between James Oldfield and the average member of the Taliban.
They are of the same mindset. One just happens to be “Christian” and the other “Muslim”, is all.”
Chris I understand your feelings, but look deeper then what you see, while you may find the method offense and that offense can be used to blind you!! They do seek the truth and want others to see the truth. I speak from what drives the actions not the actions themselves.
Do you understand that being offended is dangerous Chris? Being offended stops your ability to hear and for God to work. I quoted in a previous passage where Jesus could not be heard in his own home town and God could not do many miracles there because of their offense and un-hearing ear. Do you understand that danger?
So you dont care of your kids talk that way Chris?
James has also still not told us how “unity” is something that believers of the modern day can achieve without it being a miracle, since this was something that the “apostles and elders” are only known to have done and would be now be an impossibility since miracles do not happen anymore according to the doctrine of the Church of Christ.
The only logical conclusion is that if there is to be the same unity, that Johnny and James and Norm believe themselves to be “apostles and elders”, which per definition of “apostle” would mean that they would have had to have personally seen Jesus Christ.
So Johnny, James and Norm: Have you seen Jesus?
All they are doing is ignoring the debate offer….its quite hypocritical for them to call Jackie and others cowards for not debating and then they do the same things. This only proves Johnny can not back up his actions and approach to ministry – if so, he would take the debate. Thanks Clint for revealing to us all what we already knew. I hope one day Johnny realizes this and begins to treat people with love.
“So you dont care of your kids talk that way Chris?”
If a kid has been knocked-around by life enough, and come out of it with the wisdom to know how not to use words like that along with how to use words like that, then it wouldn’t bother me.
Except there are very few kids that this can be said of.
Again, you focus on the words and not the THOUGHT behind the words. Which is what we are instructed throughout scripture to be on guard toward.
I suppose it could be suggested that you are implying a kind of verbal gnosticism, Joey.
You’re right Chris. You truly are a politician. You can dodge a question like nobody’s business 🙂
I gotta go. I’ve had enough of the pretender today.
You asked a question, Joey. I gave you a heartfelt answer.
If you don’t like it well, that’s not my problem.
On June 12, 2008 at 9:41 am pernell Said:
All they are doing is ignoring the debate offer….its quite hypocritical for them to call Jackie and others cowards for not debating and then they do the same things. This only proves Johnny can not back up his actions and approach to ministry – if so, he would take the debate. Thanks Clint for revealing to us all what we already knew. I hope one day Johnny realizes this and begins to treat people with love.
Chris do I have to be an apostle to have unity with other believers? If so why even try?
You believe we can have unity but you want it based upon everyone doing their own thing
Do I have to have seen Jesus to have unity? what kind of argument is that? In the first century all Christians had unity through the Word but not all had seen Jesus
James asks: “and your definition?”
I would agree with your definition with one slight difference, when the woman was brought in adultery by the law Jesus should have answered stone her:
1But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?” 6They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.
But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
———————-
So from the Pharisees perspective the planned on trapping Jesus, if he answers “stone her” then he is no longer a man of the people, if not then he is against the law. And by their standards Jesus is actually doing the works of the devil because he is breaking the law of Moses by not stoning her.
So based on your definition isn’t Jesus at that moment in time of the old covenant doing the works of the devil from their perspective? After all the law says:
Leviticus 20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man’s wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
And how is it that Jesus violates that law since he is the law? And more importantly why is it the teachers of the law missed who Jesus is. After all they did not have to deal with a translation and they had memorized the old testament. What was their mistake?
On June 12, 2008 at 9:52 am walkinlove Said:
James asks: “and your definition?”
I would agree with your definition with one slight difference, when the woman was brought in adultery by the law Jesus should have answered stone her:
no he should not have. The law required BOTH parties to be stoned. She was caught “in the act.” Where was the man?
Jesus didnot condemn here because she was there unlawfully. Had she been there with the man – teh verdict would have been different
I did not read teh rest, sorry. I gotta go.
later
Well James, if “unity” is what you desire, you are going about it the wrong way. Because you want “unity” for sake of unity, which is worse than useless.
I know you are using the KJV but I think the NIV projects the thought of Colossians 3:14 just as well…
“And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.”
LOVE, James. Not the legalism that you guys preach. Love is what will unite us. Not bitterness and rancor.
In those terms, what you and yer bunch are doing, per scripture, cannot possibly bring unity.
I think that it Einstein who noted that to keep doing something over and over again and still expecting a different result was the definition of “insanity”.
So how is what the preachers of the self-professed “Church of Christ” in this area anything other than “theological insanity”?
“no he should not have. The law required BOTH parties to be stoned. She was caught “in the act.” Where was the man?
Jesus didnot condemn here because she was there unlawfully. Had she been there with the man – teh verdict would have been different”
?!?!?!???
Is James Oldfield suggesting that Jesus might have picked up a rock and stoned this girl to death Himself because of a legal technicality?!?
I can’t believe that he just wrote this. Seriously. My jaw has hit the floor.
To quote the late great Charlton Heston: “IT’S A MADHOUSE! A MADHOUSE!”
Really James where does it say that? I see Jesus asking her to be stoned by those who have not sinned, I do not see him saying we can’t stone her because the man is not here to be stoned also! Or is it that Jesus is actually not being truthful to the people around him and is hiding the reason you state?
Surely that is not the case!
I will ask this again, if the teachers of the law knew the entire bible back then how is it they missed Jesus as the Christ? What do each of you say?
Read the law again walkinlove:
Deut 22:22
Lev 20:10
they shall BOTH of them die. Was the man brought with the woman in John 8?
They didn’t MISS it. the account says they were trying to trick him.
“6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him.”
Joey, are you saying that Jesus would have let the girl be stoned to death, if the man had been brought forth also?
What does the law say Chris? Would Jesus have obeyed the law?
Okay, we have James, Johnny, Joey, faithful………I wonder where Norm is 🙂
Boys and girls
2Co 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
check out “pulling down”
2506. kayairesiv kathairesis, kath-ah’-ee-res-is
Search for 2506 in KJV
from 2507; demolition; figuratively, extinction:–destruction, pulling down.
We are determined to rid the world of false thought
Chris you can live now
your false thoughts have to go
By the way… if we dont get this out of you , you won’t get into heaven with all that silly love stuff you claim
settle down children it was the Bible that Johnny boy was using
I will ask this again, if the teachers of the law knew the entire bible back then how is it they missed Jesus as the Christ? What do each of you say?
The missed it because they were expecting an earthly king / kingdom, not a spiritual kingdom. Even the apostles were still confused after Jesus had been resurrected. What was one of the last things they said to him?
“Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”
good point Corey….Jackie, I mean Johnny are you willing to debate Clint
I knew chris would be back
we are running a commercial in Mville where is throwing the towel
at least that is what the station said
Chris did you hear the community laughing
I knew he would be back
are yo going to use the other 15 minutes now?
How was u sitting on the pot in you gag film glorifying God Chris
you actually lied
the WGSR folk would never have given you that time if they had known how dishonest you are.
You said to the whole community that you were going to answer us
we see what it is
you guys proped up a champ who has 10 minutes of Bible knowledge
great going Nathan
whoooorah
“We are determined to rid the world of false thought”
I suppose that some, sadly, have not read Nineteen Eighty-Four.
“your false thoughts have to go
By the way… if we dont get this out of you , you won’t get into heaven with all that silly love stuff you claim”
Could have very well been said by O’Brien in Room 101.
deabte who
another chris
corey clint
we have real opponents
Islam is next
ya’ll can fuss with each other
LOL. Is that the GOV bible? (George Orwell Version)..copyright 1984
Hey chris
did you enjoy the Jansen moment
I heard all of Henry Co laugh out loud
Oh and did you notice you all didnt get one plug for this site
oh well
You enjoying that debauchery you participate in Johnny?
Will Johnny Poe debate Clint or not !!?? Maybe, Johnny, you can go behind the walls too….seems like you are the pot calling the kettle black. Clint is willing to debate you on the issues he put forth and you pulled out the Jackie Poe card – just ignoring him….
btw, the plug will be in everywhere very soon so they can see how you hid behind the walls
On June 12, 2008 at 9:41 am pernell Said:
All they are doing is ignoring the debate offer….its quite hypocritical for them to call Jackie and others cowards for not debating and then they do the same things. This only proves Johnny can not back up his actions and approach to ministry – if so, he would take the debate. Thanks Clint for revealing to us all what we already knew. I hope one day Johnny realizes this and begins to treat people with love.
pernell are you in a cave
do you know how many debates we have had
we dont even know if you exist
you could be and alter ego of Chris for all we know
To truly do the things we should do, it must come from within our hearts. When we repent, we must repent from within our hearts if not then we are not repenting. We are told to love everybody, until we can love another person from within our hearts we are not doing so. God sees what is truly in our hearts, that’s what matters. So we all fall short, thats why God gave us his Grace to save us, if we have faith. If you think by doing good works is more important than what comes from in our hearts, then your missing the whole point. God wants is to desire to do good works but that will not save us. It’s what is within our hearts and Gods Grace that saves us. When you sincerely do something from within your heart it shows, and I think it shows when someone is truly following Christ. And I do not claim to know it all, I’m just doing as God leads me to do as I learn His Word.
Will Johnny Poe debate Clint or not !!?? Maybe, Johnny, you can go behind the walls too….seems like you are the pot calling the kettle black. Clint is willing to debate you on the issues he put forth and you pulled out the Jackie Poe card – just ignoring him….
btw, the plug will be in everywhere very soon so they can see how you hid behind the walls
who is clint
ya’ll if you keep pushing chris he may appear again
We have had no less than every other day on the local news asking us more about his behavior
we have gotten more good news out of him than when BTW smacked the lady and said they wished it was us
whoooo is clint nathans dark side
Randy’s child hood playmate make believe
come on guys if we cant see you …. there must be a reason
are you hiding?
clint who
a 10 yeaqr old getting kicks
we do our work out in the open where grown ups see
Chris showed you all what it is like when you come out of blog world
I think even your buds said “you better stay in blog world”
Welcome to the land of make believe
the plug?
oh no!
it is coming out?
we got new support the last time you all went beyond Martinsville
Call up Shawn
lets get this thing going
the church of Christ loves to hear about peole like Chris
he tried but couldnt do it
Who is Jackie Poe?
– By the way, the fanatics & hyperons have really put on a good show the last couple of days! I am not sure a debate is really in order, just sit back and watch how they talk.
– Condemning others who disagree with them on minor points in some way (see their shameful treatment of Corey)
– Condemning others who refuse to condemn others to Hell & who do not wish to play God.
– Refusing to debate issues, even though they champion themselves as defenders of truth
– Constantly comparing themselves to Paul or Jesus
Keep it up guys.
chris is threatening suit
There are multiple users on the churchesofChrist.wordpress.com blog, which one I am?? doesn’t matter – the facts are, you are pulling the Jackie Poe card and not willing to debate. If you look at some of your old blogs, you might figure out some things….now you know me Johnny boy? You told me to provoke people and trained me well – maybe its time I tell all !!! Yes, I moved, but I have plans to go back on TV – so line your ducks up my friend.
Are you condemning us DMH?
“Are you condemning us DMH?”
Nope. Not at all.
Just enjoying the show your putting on.
On June 12, 2008 at 10:31 am Johnny Said:
who is clint
A church of Christ preacher….go back and read his offer
the new Jackie Poe is Johnny
What we do physically cannot save us. Jesus did the ultimate sacrifice on the Cross to do that for us. Though God does want us to desire to do good works. We should try to do the things God tells us to do and we will fail many times trying. But when we do something that comes from our heart God will see that. When you want to help bring other people to Christ the way in which you show it matters. It does show when Christ is living in you. The way in which you should approach people about this matters so much.
Assuming for a second that if the man had actually been brought to Jesus he would have had both of them stoned, how is it that every man was not put to death by Jesus the moment he spoke:
Mathew 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Now since those who had committed adultery should be stoned should not also those who had lusted been stoned? And since the woman they have lusted after did not commit adultery there was no need of a second person being present.
Why didn’t Jesus uphold the law and stone then since he would have stoned both the woman and the man had the man been there?
Based on the law all men should have died at that moment or at least most of them!
ya’ll chris is gonna sue
whine
chris was trolling for another viacom all along
you guys pick some winners
On June 12, 2008 at 10:40 am pernell Said:
There are multiple users on the churchesofChrist.wordpress.com blog, which one I am?? doesn’t matter – the facts are, you are pulling the Jackie Poe card and not willing to debate. If you look at some of your old blogs, you might figure out some things….now you know me Johnny boy? You told me to provoke people and trained me well – maybe its time I tell all !!! Yes, I moved, but I have plans to go back on TV – so line your ducks up my friend.
boy pernell is really acting like he might be the next chris night
pernell you might check out the “bites the dust” box to see if it fits you
And for that matter all men who marry a divorced woman who have not committed adultery and the woman the moment she marries?
Mathew 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
I met someone you know pernell…she told me about you
Just this Sunday as a matter of fact.
Now since those who had committed adultery should be stoned should not also those who had lusted been stoned? And since the woman they have lusted after did not commit adultery there was no need of a second person being present.
Why didn’t Jesus uphold the law and stone then since he would have stoned both the woman and the man had the man been there?
Based on the law all men should have died at that moment or at least most of them!
How would you know if a person had lusted? Would you stone them anyway because they probably had? Jesus is saying that the inner thoughts can be as corruptible as the outward actions. Jesus was about to fulfill the Law of Moses, but He was making sure we know that our inner thoughts will be judged by God.
You’re missing the whole point of that passage. The people who brought the woman had no intention of trying to follow the Law. They only sought to trap Jesus. If He said to stone her, He was violating the Roman law. If He said not to stone her, they would say He was violating the Law of Moses. Jesus showed them their dishonest motives by telling them to let the one without sin cast the first stone.
pernell
joey is talking to ya
No corey the trap was the law! And tell me do men lust?
Since there are accounts of prostitutes in the Bible there was lust!
On June 12, 2008 at 10:53 am Joey Said:
I met someone you know pernell…she told me about you
On June 12, 2008 at 10:54 am Joey Said:
Just this Sunday as a matter of fact.
-Good. Now the cats out of the bag.
Johnny,
I’ve already told Charles Roark my thoughts on the matter.
As for what happens next well… we’ll just wait and see.
But that’s not what I’m writing about at the moment.
LISTEN to what you are saying, Johnny!
How are you glorifying Christ with this?!?
How are you going to glorify Christ by running a promo with me?
If you do it, I don’t care. As I said, we’ll just have to wait and see.
Go ahead and do it, if that is the inclination of your heart.
It is the inclination of your heart, isn’t it?
Your real heart.
This entire thing, has been an eye-opener for me.
Johnny Robertson, you have a great black pit for a soul.
And all you are doing, is demonstrating that. Not God, not Christ, not love.
Just darkness.
Go ahead. Like I said, I don’t care.
But you would do well to think about it.
Of course there was lust. The thing is this – lust is a desire or thought. There is no physical evidence of it, so you can’t stone someone for something you have no evidence of.
If someone acts on that lust it goes beyond lust to fornication or adultery.
whoooo is clint nathans dark side
Randy’s child hood playmate make believe
come on guys if we cant see you …. there must be a reason
are you hiding?
clint who
-Clint, please come on here and tell Johnny who you are
….its quite hypocritical for them to call Jackie and others cowards for not debating and then they do the same things. This only proves Johnny can not back up his actions and approach to ministry – if so, he would take the debate. Thanks Clint for revealing to us all what we already knew. I hope one day Johnny realizes this and begins to treat people with love.
But Jesus can see your heart Corey, and if you lust you have committed adultery! And when Jesus asked for someone who was without sin to cast the first stone since he was without sin he should have still cast the fist stone!!!!!!
Pernell,
did she tell you that I asked about you?
fist = first, sorry missed a letter.
You’re just completely missing the point. Two things must be understood:
*The Law of Moses did not allow for the stoning of only one party (as Joey pointed out). Both would have to be brought forward for punishment. That wasn’t done because their intent was not to carry out the law but to trap Jesus.
*Jesus’ law, the fulfillment of the Law of Moses, does not and did not include earthly punishment (execution) for sins. The whole point is that the punishment will be given on the day of judgment.
yes, Joey. I see that Johnny has turned you out – just like him now, arent you. I have to get back to my truck. See you all one day !
What did she tell you then?
‘turned you out’….ouch. Guess somebody’s upset at me.
What did she tell you then?…
Guess you’re not going to answer Ja…I mean Ran…I mean Pernell
…you dont have a clue Joey – youre not even in the ball park, well maybe 🙂
and just where is Norm 🙂
walkinlove,
You must understand this:
Matthew 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
This means that Jesus lived under, and followed, the Law of Moses while He lived upon Earth. That means that He would have had to follow the Law in the passage we’re discussing. This means both parties must be present to go forward with the stoning. His teachings about lust=adultery and on divorce & remarriage were amplifications of Moses’ Law for the Christian age.
Those teachings are in stark contrast to those who would paint Jesus as some hippie who walked around saying, “peace, love and grace bros”. He actually made the law more strict. He said we wouldn’t just be held accountable for the act of adultery, but for the thoughts of adultery. He said that divorce/remarriage was only permissible when one party had committed fornication. These were “harder” teachings and practices that what the Jews lived under with Moses’ law.
…all you guys have done is run from the debate with Clint. So, keep up the good work – I refuse to reply back to anything other than the subject of the debate with Clict and Johnny. Tell Jackie, oops, I mean Johnny I said Hello
If you have such a grand scheme pernell, just answer my question….or are you a poser?
A debate would profit nothing by your new theology. So why press so hard?
On June 12, 2008 at 11:23 am pernell Said:
…all you guys have done is run from the debate with Clint. So, keep up the good work – I refuse to reply back to anything other than the subject of the debate with Clint and Johnny. Tell Jackie, oops, I mean Johnny I said Hello
On June 12, 2008 at 11:27 am pernell Said:
On June 12, 2008 at 11:23 am pernell Said:
…all you guys have done is run from the debate with Clint. So, keep up the good work – I refuse to reply back to anything other than the subject of the debate with Clint and Johnny
I read your statement already. no need to repost. I responded about the debate. If you got all your ‘ducks in a row’ then exposing your identity wont hurt a thing. But thats your perrogative.
On June 12, 2008 at 11:02 am Chris Knight Said:
Johnny,
I’ve already told Charles Roark my thoughts on the matter.
As for what happens next well… we’ll just wait and see.
Correct my little fellow
you wait and see what happens next
you never were in charge
you were just puffed up enough to think you were
do you remember saying “this will be all over you tube?
well i guess you think you can use my image to promo your videos huh
dont try to go back to bible talk
christ we all know you are a 10 minute wonder when it comes to that
Johnny,
I didn’t use your likeness on WGSR.
Can you find any instance on Sunday night when I did?
On June 12, 2008 at 11:20 am pernell Said:
…you dont have a clue Joey – youre not even in the ball park, well maybe 🙂
and just where is Norm 🙂
joey you know the person they are trying to play this off as
he is not one to play kid games and he knows us tooo well to think that we have any thing to hide
we are the ones who keep our spending report out in the foyer for all to see including records of his expenditures.
try again boys
have you seen us scared
1Pe 3:14 But and if ye suffer for righteousness’ sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;
No I see what you are driving at that since adultery of only a man and his neighbor’s wife should be stoned that they could not be stoned because the man was not there. Thus you are splitting hairs. Finding a loophole, and I will split hairs also, in Leviticus it does not say anywhere in that passage that both parties had to be stoned at the same moment and in the same location. Where does it say that? It says they both are to be put to death.
On June 12, 2008 at 11:40 am Chris Knight Said:
Johnny,
I didn’t use your likeness on WGSR.
Can you find any instance on Sunday night when I did?
your website
or you making money there
you told joey all the money making schemes you have as to why you only had 10 minutes of B I B L E in you
keep up chris night (dark side)
you had my image up for months
youcame after us
we dont make money honey
obe one
Yeah, I wouldn’t think he would be one to hide on a blog.
obe one…LOL
obe wan
On June 12, 2008 at 11:15 am Joey Said:
What did she tell you then?…
“I refuse to reply back to anything other than the subject of the debate with Clict and Johnny”
Thats what I thought. Not who you are playing to be.
joey
isn’t funny how when they start getting over come with our message they all start the
“we are sincere” whine
you dont love us
this is an “evil and adulterous ” generation
Blind as a bat
I m about ready to do the
Mat 15:14 thing ….Mt 15:14 Let them alone:
walkinlove,
We can know that they had no intentions of presenting the man because of verse 6:
6They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.
I’m not splitting hairs, I just going by what the passage tells us. Look at it like this – if a group of men caught that woman “in the act” of adultery, the man was there as well. So why didn’t they bring him as well? The answer is that they had no intentions of presenting the man. They only sought to trap Jesus that they might accuse Him of violating the Roman law or Moses’ Law. Notice that they didn’t even mention the man to Jesus.
Johnny tell me about what the Bible says about Pride?
pernell
see how easy that was
“i refuse to answer anything but clint vs johnny”
who is clint
shawn would like to know
Where does it say in Leviticus 20:10 they should be killed at the same time in the same place? Show me where that is in that passage Corey? What part of that passage states that?
Nathan do you want to meet again at Mickey Ds
You didnt do too well last time
you thought we forgot?
young boy with his wife
wanting to me a missionary
that spell wanna be
i have a little time for light talk if you want to come out
other wise
wizard of OZ watch out for Toto he may pull the curtain back on you??????
Chris can decifer that
Guess pernell went lookin’ for oil.
On June 12, 2008 at 11:59 am walkinlove Said:
Johnny tell me about what the Bible says about Pride?
what does pride have to do with knowing you all are weak as water and taunting you
let Elijah tell you
and then look at the great John baptist
here is help for you all who dont know the bible
1Ki 18:27 And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked.
28 And they cried aloud, and cut themselves after their manner with knives and lancets, till the blood gushed out upon them.
Mt 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
Hmm I would suggest that in your studies you study the matter of Pride and its effects on your walk with God.
hello pernell
all you have to do is tell us something only you could know about …? lets see… how much truth is in SC let us say Greenville?
now if you get this right there will just be one more from me and I will know this is not Randy
On June 12, 2008 at 12:08 pm walkinlove Said:
Hmm I would suggest that in your studies you study the matter of Pride and its effects on your walk with God.
I suggest you prove it s my pride and not you weak position that is bothering you
hmmm
Where does it say in Leviticus 20:10 they should be killed at the same time in the same place? Show me where that is in that passage Corey? What part of that passage states that?
Were they going to present him later? Were they even going to tell Jesus who it was?
I’m really not sure what you’re getting at. Are you saying you believe that Jesus would not have had them put to death if both parties had been brought to Him?
well joey I guess all the little tikes
went for nap time
little tikes is modern version Corey
for
Matt 11:16
Mt 11:16 ¶ But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,
Chris wrote on his site
Charles Roark offers FREE airtime on WGSR to Johnny Robertson for commercial defaming Yours Truly using my likeness
He did. It’s true. I’ve got it documented.
And in Charles Roark’s words: “I don’t care… Take me on.”
Just thought y’all should know.
So how is this different than what happened the other night? I never used Robertson’s image.
Am glad that I didn’t, now
Johnny says
“defame”
you must be kidding
you did so much damage to yourself that your own buddies here said you should stick to blogging nitght rider!
why dont you call Brian Edwards and see how far you get when you start the ball and then cry whah whah
he told me his lawyer was a regular before the highest court in the land (boy were scared then)
di you hear about it ? No?
well it seems that Brian started it
Chris didnt you start this and oh has it not turned out so well
or were you planning to seek some free air time
oh chris
can i put up the pic of you on the pot that you put out for the world to see
if that wasn’t enough to defame you
well what could little ole me do better than that
i guess you havent seen my video of all your bragging about yourself
oh you ran out of tape
big documentarian came without enough tape for the even
I will loan you some next time
boy what a hoot!
More to come I am sure
I will be watching WGSR boys
no plugs for your site yet
1 year 50,000 hits and counting
must be frustrating
Corey he did not have her killed that is clear, why is the question that needs an answer. He could have asked for the other man to have been brought to him and their plot would have been exposed would it not? I mean if they put him up to it, he would have sang a song very quickly to try and save himself from being stoned would he not? And if not they surely knew where he was and how to find him since they had interrupted the act. So why didn’t Jesus ask for the man to be found so the law could be carried out since as you say there was a loophole in the law that they both must be present.
Yet Jesus does not ask them to do that, he asks the people there to cast a stone if they had not sinned.
You state that he would have stoned her if they had fulfilled the law, or do I misunderstand you? I ask where is it in the law that both parties must be there at the same time to be killed? You have not answered that question yet. I don’t see it myself. I do see the law not being carried out as described by Leviticus.
Even if they used it to try and trap him the law is the law is it not? The punishment for Adultery is death!
walkinlove,
Let me answer your question – there is no provision in the Law of Moses that says both parties are to be executed at the same time in the same place. You are correct on that. I am not trying to say there was a “loophole” in the Law.
Now, let me ask you this – where is the proof that this woman actually committed adultery? Is not the only evidence the word of men who we’re told had dishonest motives? Why should we believe them?
Jesus knew what the outcome would be. He knew that none of them actually had the courage to cast a stone at her. Is it not possible that He knew that because He knew the charges to be false? I don’t want to do too much guessing, but I don’t know why we should believe the Pharisees in that instance when the scripture plainly states their dishonest motives.
Johnny,
My heart just sadly sinks in the things you say. You cannot make a comment and show Christ Living in you. I am so glad God is who He is. You do not see the Beauty of His grace. The way you act just builds up your ego along with the Devils. I believe and follow God that the Bible tells us about. The God you have made up in your mind doesn’t exist.
Johnny,
In the past hour or so, after a lot of thinking and prayer…
Go ahead and use it. Use whatever you want.
Sic transit gloria mundi.
Why verse 11, Jesus himself says don’t sin anymore!
11She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
And now that you have answered there is no part of the law that says both have to be there and both have to be executed, explain again to me how lusting adultery and marriage to a divorced woman adultery is different then regular adultery.
Thanks!
A person cannot teach something they cannot see for themself.
that should be executed at the same time, sorry
On June 12, 2008 at 12:10 pm Johnny Said:
hello pernell
all you have to do is tell us something only you could know about …? lets see… how much truth is in SC let us say Greenville?
now if you get this right there will just be one more from me and I will know this is not Randy
From Randy: Johnny, what the heck are you talking about? What does it matter who is Randy, who is Pernell, who is Jason………answer this one: Who is Nathan 🙂
Thanks “truth”
I guess there is no hope for me then?
Unless….
Christ is not how you think?
Christ could not stand false teaching
as David before him’
Psa 119:104
All the non Christians that called last nite (kept me on till 10:30 instead of my usual 10pm ) cant see what you see
who are you anyway
could you be the devil trying to divert me
Mat 4?
was it ego for me to give all this lime light up and go back to “slum of slum” of the Pacific?
where were you when I was laying on a table in that slum bleeding on the in side … my wife stuck on the other end of the island by high tides that completely wiped the road away
me having nothing to eat but the daily meal of pork chop (infirmary food)which sent me into spasms which had to be handled by more IV hits of demirol
my ego really gets a spike when I think about how much longer I have stay in the USA
I am telling my wife every day that we really need to think about going back to a part of the world where sincere people do not have the gospel at all
but thanks any way truth
I wonder if God likes the name you ahve chosen for yourself
Randy said
Who is Nathan
he is a young guy who tried to debate me in 2004 ?
Why verse 11, Jesus himself says don’t sin anymore!
Certainly she had sin in her life, as we all do. I don’t know that you can say her sin was adultery. Jesus said the same thing to the crippled man in John 5:14.
I’m not sure if I’m following the second part of your statement, but let me try and answer what I think you’re saying:
The adultery committed by lusting is obviously different in that you haven’t committed the physical act. If I think of telling a lie is that the same as if I actually verbalized the lie? Of course not. Still, the sins that take place only in the mind will be accounted for on Judgment Day. That is what Jesus was getting at.
As to marriage to a person who wasn’t divorced from a mate who committed the physical act of adultery (fornication is what Jesus actually said), there is no difference. That relationship will continue to be adultery as God doesn’t recognize the divorce as permissible.
Johnny when you read the Bible you see only what Johnny wants to see your not seeing what God wants you to see. Maybe one day you will open your eyes and quit being so blind and see the truth in Gods Word and then you can show that Christ is Living in you.
Johnny since Corey is away for a moment perhaps you could speak into our discussion on the woman who committed adultery? I would be interested on what you have to say about it.
Thanks, I am looking to grow in knowledge!
Johnny, why don’t you go straint to the sorce and talk to him yourslef. BTW, Jason does have each copy of what all you said about him yesterday. Don’t email me anything else about Jason anymore. Jason left and he felt a weight lifted from him when he got away from you guys. I am finished with you and this blog, you guys seem to have taken it over anyways. Question: Who is Nathan, now you answer that one !!
From:
Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 12:50 PM
To: Randy Craiger
Subject:
Will you send me a copy of the e-mail he sent telling you stuff about me?
Randy! funny..you show up and pernell is gone. Coincidence? Had to find a different PC with a different internet connection and public IP Address to mask it?
Chris
I have already moved on
We are very busy in Mayodan
I have no real desire to cause you any displeasure
WGSR has their own agenda. I have no knowledge of it.
I buy time there and try to get along with guys like Matt who I know disagree with me.
I saw Tyler in your video.
He can tell you that I am not the favorite of WGSR
I know they make fun of me behind my back
I have my agenda and it is not the same as WGSR
I have had to oppose Charles on many occasions and will be chastised for last nites show in which I took Jessica Robinson on, which is a breach of contract.
He has threatened to kick me off sooo many times
so if you ever want to talk I am available
see ya
On June 12, 2008 at 12:48 pm Johnny Said:
Randy said
Who is Nathan
he is a young guy who tried to debate me in 2004 ?
wrong !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Johnny I know people who have went through worse things, and go to further lenghts than I ever could to teach the Word of God to other people but it’s not that the fact of the length to which they went but the fact that you can simply see Christ living in them. Like I said you can do all the good works you can but it is when Gods truth is truly in you that it shows.
Matthew 6: 1Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
2Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
3But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
4That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.
I just thought some people might need to read that.
On June 12, 2008 at 1:11 pm Truth Said:
Johnny I know people who have went through worse things, and go to further lenghts than I ever could to teach the Word of God to other people but it’s not that the fact of the length to which they went but the fact that you can simply see Christ living in them.
wrong
the way you see Jesus “truth” living is how he says to see him
2Co 8:9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.
now you can dance around all you like but I can demonstrate that I love the sincere lost enough to give all up
you can try and say blah blah all you like
and to corey
paul told a lot of things when he was being questioned about his sincerety
see
2Co 11:23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.
28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.
was Paul disobying Mat 6 Corey
you can sit down now we all know you are a liberal
On June 12, 2008 at 12:51 pm walkinlove Said:
Johnny since Corey is away for a moment perhaps you could speak
I didnt get the gist of the discussion
but my answer to the Joh 8 issue
Ex 23:2 Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil; neither shalt thou speak in a cause to decline after many to wrest judgment:
Jesus could not allow himself to break any law and he would have if he followed these people
they were supposed to have both parties and the person who was witness was to be involved in the death
death was permtted in Jesus day
see Act 22:4 to death and b y Priest authority
Ac 26:10
They killed Jesus under Jewish law (permission granted by Rome) His Crime Deut 13:5 prophet saying things “differnt” than they believed
Why Jesus said what he said to lady?
no proof she was guilty
false witnesses
misusing the law as usual
he could not get involved with such
no one can therefore prove she was guilty
I f the Lord would not hear thse guys accusations why should we
was Paul disobying Mat 6 Corey
Nope. He was telling fellow Christians all he had been through to advance the gospel. If you shared your story with other Christians it might serve as an encouragement to them. When you share it with those who oppose you, you’re just bragging so they’ll know how good you are…how much better than them you are.
Strange that you should even think that was directed at you. Strike a nerve perhaps?
any bible that has a heading on the top of the page that says
“woman caught in adultery” is accepting false witnesses
walkinlove,
If you’ll look at my post at 12:49 you’ll see that I answered you.
Corey
read your bible please
he said to you all who question me
he was defending for anyone to read
you are the worst part of this blog
liberal church members
ugh
who ever was talking about this
Now since those who had committed adultery should be stoned should not also those who had lusted been stoned? And since the woman they have lusted after did not commit adultery there was no need of a second person being present.
heart will be judged in judgement
Ro 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
1Ti 5:24 Some men’s sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after.
do you want everyone dead who is angry too
Mat 5:22 1Joh 3:15
signing off now
“they were supposed to have both parties and the person who was witness was to be involved in the death”
Johnny where is that stated? Numbers 35:30 states that one witness is not enough to put someone to death. So you are saying that the pharisees are telling lies about the woman then?
“read your bible please
he said to you all who question me
he was defending for anyone to read”
-this statement is utter nonsense.
1. Paul’s Statements were taken from a private (at the time)letter.
2. You are not Paul.
“you are the worst part of this blog
liberal church members
ugh”
-I am starting to think this is a joke.
he said to you all who question me
I can’t find that phrase, or anything close to, in any of the 3 versions I’ve just read.
Also, do you deny that this was written to Christians?
Johnny where is that stated? Numbers 35:30 states that one witness is not enough to put someone to death. So you are saying that the pharisees are telling lies about the woman then?
Hebrews 10: 28He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
I would say that it is very likely the Pharisees were lying about the woman.
Corey,
Just curious, what are these allegations of “liberalism” against you? What is their definition of liberal?
It seems that your views of scripture interpretation are about as in line with conservative CoC as it comes.
What are they so mad about all the time?
DMH,
Well, I guess there are basically two things:
1. I don’t believe that name-calling is the best approach to spreading the gospel. I think you can be kind and respectful and win people over a lot easier than by being coarse with them. The preachers I admire most are those who never compromise the truth, but present their message with obvious love and compassion for the lost.
2. We differ in our approach to instrumental music. My stance is that God never asked for it, so adding it is almost certainly sinful. If there is even a chance that something is sinful, it must be avoided. I teach against IM, would never tolerate it nor worship with those who use it. I also am against using it with spiritual songs outside of worship. They say that because God only asked Christians to sing that they know, without any doubt that it is a sin.
I guess those are the things that make me a “liberal” to them, although to many Christians I know I’m extremely “conservative” (especially since I don’t believe in IM outside of worship).
Corey,
– The first one I can totally see. Their incoherent ramblings and threats are immediately discernable.
– The second point is…..well it’s just ludicrous. They are mad because you agree them, but simply arrive at agreement differently? I guess there is fine line to walk.
On a side note, I have never heard anyone say they are against IM outside of worship as well. Is this common in churches in your part of country? Is this a non-institutional church belief?
Something interesting on having enough witness’ to execute the woman.
John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
13The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.
14Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.
15Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
16And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
17It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
18I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
So if Jesus and God the father are enough for him to declare himself the light of the world is he not also able to put the woman to death? We has the pharisees accusation and he and his father are enough of a witness.
If there was a violation of the law, then the law must be upheld. If the law is to be upheld then Jesus could have called for the man to be brought also to be stoned and if he does not do so isn’t he in violation of:
Deuteronomy 19:16 If a false witness rise up against any man to testify against him that which is wrong;
17Then both the men, between whom the controversy is, shall stand before the LORD, before the priests and the judges, which shall be in those days;
18And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother;
19Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you.
Thus if the pharisees are calling for the death of the woman and they are falsely doing so, is not the Lord to judge them with the same judgment they bring down on the woman?
Again if Jesus does not have the woman stoned or the witness’ in this case the pharisees stoned he violates the law. Yet we know he can’t do that, so I would say there is some truth that is missing still.
DMH,
No, I would not say it is a commonly held belief in my part of the country, or anywhere else that I know of. I know that Joey who posts here feels the same as I do. And no, this isn’t a non-institutional belief as far as I know. I’m not a member of a non-institutional congregation. I wrote this article:
http://coreydavis.wordpress.com/2008/05/01/instrumental-music-outside-of-worship-services/
which explains my stance on this issue. I used it in the Wed. night class I was teaching and found that few, if any, in my congregation agreed with me. Their reasoning? “I just don’t think there is anything wrong with it”. The same excuse used by many in denominations. It isn’t something I’m willing to fight with a brother over, but I have my convictions and I’ve tried to explain them the best I could.
If you read that article make sure you notice the first part. The article was written for those who are already a part of the church of Christ and believe that IM in worship is unacceptable.
walkinlove,
Here is the rest of Deut 19:
20and those who are left do hear and fear, and add not to do any more according to this evil thing in thy midst;
21and thine eye doth not pity — life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.
No life was taken, so no life could be demanded. If they were false witnesses (and we can assume they probably were) and they took her life then they would have had to answer with their lives.
walkinlove,
It is worth noting that this passage we’re discussing doesn’t appear in the earliest, most reliable manuscripts and is noted as such in most translations.
I’m not saying it didn’t happen or is uninspired, but it is worth noting.
You need to reread the full quote again, it talks about what should happen to a witness that is false, he should receive what he has attempted to do to the other who was accused.
19Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you.
If the pharisees are accusing the woman falsely of adultery and calling for her to be stoned, then they are guilty of false witness and because they are using the law that the woman should be stoned falsely they should themselves be stoned for their actions. So based on those laws, Jesus is either guilty of not having the woman put to death because the pharisees caught her in the act or they are giving false witness of the event that would result in her death and thus should be put to death for their actions.
So how is it that Jesus can violate the law?
When you read the last two verses (which I posted above) you see the penalty – life for life, eye for eye, etc. In its totality I think we see that liars were to be stoned if their lies resulted in someone being put to death.
walkinlove,
Let me clarify, since I probably can’t post this evening:
If you stop at verse 19 I can see why you’d conclude that the Pharisees, if lying, would have to be put to death. However, if you balance verse 19 with verse 21 you see that the punishment has to fit the crime. No life was taken, so no life was to be demanded.
“as he had thought to have done”
this part of 19 does not say they did it, it says they only tried to do it and thus the same should be done to them!
The passage is not talking about an actual action, it is talking about an attempted action, thus if I conspire to have you killed I am to be killed for what I had thought to have done. Or for what I have attempted.
Have a great evening Corey I have enjoyed our posts! Perhaps we can talk more tomorrow!
I see what you’re saying, however, we must look at what the Pharisees actually “thought to have done”, which was not to have the woman stoned but to trap Jesus. I don’t think the woman mattered at all to them, they just wanted something on Jesus they could use.
I ask you this – looking at verse 21, if Jesus had the Pharisees stoned, would that have been “life for life” or “life for lie”? I see what verse 19 says, but I think it must be harmonized with verse 21.
Thanks for the discussion. I’ll be back tomorrow if not tonight.
Corey
The book of Romans speaks alot about the laws and about faith. I would like to see your thoughts on this after you have read all the chapters in Romans again.
I will have to come back later tonight.
20and those who are left do hear and fear, and add not to do any more according to this evil thing in thy midst;
But Corey if they are not to be killed for their attempted actions why would verse 20 say people would hear about it and fear? And in the case of Jesus and the woman the pharisees are allowed to walk away so they will hear and fear because nothing happens to them?!?!
But on the other hand if a false witness were killed for attempting to have someone else killed under the law people would hear and fear and would not do the same thing for risk it would happen to them if they accuse falsely!
Johnny,
You are sick. This is the most disgusting and vile thing-you cannot claim to be a follower of Christ and act as you do. Everything I see coming from you is pure evil-you have allowed satan to take over and you show no fruits of Christ.
It is disgusting-absolutely and totally disgusting…not to mention the guys you have “trained” to act in the same vile manner. I am so tired of it, and I cannot even imagine what God thinks.
What you are doing is NOT bringing glory to God, it is only making the devil smile. I will have nothing to do with your evil deeds found in darkness.
You have missed the entire point of God, His grace, His love, and ultimately why He sent Jesus to die on a cross. You have distorted and twisted His message into hatred and condemnation, when He is LOVE.
I pray for your soul and those you are leading down this miserable path-for it only leads to destruction, and not the love of Christ.
I have a couple of questions on unity of the original Church. James stated tonight that one reason they were in accord is that followed the word while holding up the Bible, the King James version. What Bible did the original Church use?
Secondly why are Paul and Barnabas not in one accord in the following?
Acts 15:36 And some days after Paul said unto Barnabas, Let us go again and visit our brethren in every city where we have preached the word of the LORD, and see how they do.
37And Barnabas determined to take with them John, whose surname was Mark.
38But Paul thought not good to take him with them, who departed from them from Pamphylia, and went not with them to the work.
39And the contention was so sharp between them, that they departed asunder one from the other: and so Barnabas took Mark, and sailed unto Cyprus;
40And Paul chose Silas, and departed, being recommended by the brethren unto the grace of God.
41And he went through Syria and Cilicia, confirming the churches.
1 Corenthians 1:10 I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. 11My brothers, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas[a]”; still another, “I follow Christ.”
13Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into[b] the name of Paul? 14I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. 16(Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.) 17For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
In the above Paul is clearly dealing with division in the Church. Is this the same Church that is in Acts or a different church? And are those who are being corrected at the moment before they are corrected going to hell for their statements of following someone since they are not in one accord and they must therefore not be submitting to the word?
My apologies my second quote is not KJV.
10Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
11For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
12Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
14I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
16And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
17For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
This is the KJV.
Thanks!
After reading some of the posts from earlier today and yesterday I would have to agree that Chris’ use of profanity and/or implied profanity was a bit much. One can make a strong statement or emphasis without using curse words. The Scriptures tells us to tame the tongue (James 1 & 3). When we use such profanity it diminishes our witness and respect in the secular world.
On another note, I also think that it diminishes one’s witness and defense of the Church when one who is perfectly able to do so is not in active worship and participation with a local body of believers. Not to worship with others of like faith gives the impression of noncommitment or a lesser commitment to the church of Christ.
On June 12, 2008 at 9:48 pm walkinlove Said:
“I have a couple of questions on unity of the original Church. James stated tonight that one reason they were in accord is that followed the word while holding up the Bible, the King James version. What Bible did the original Church use?”
The Bible they used was the revealed word that was being given through the apostles. (i.e “the apostles doctrine”) It was given in word and espistle(2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.) The apostles were walking New Testsaments
They were being written down and passed around by the church (Col 4:16 And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the epistle from Laodicea.) It was eventually all written down (“the faith once delivered” – Jude 3)
So just because they did not habve the Bible in the same form as we do, they still had the Bible
On June 12, 2008 at 9:48 pm walkinlove Said:
Secondly why are Paul and Barnabas not in one accord in the following?
Acts 15:36-41 And some days after Paul said unto Barnabas, Let us go again and visit our brethren in every city where we have preached the word of the LORD, and see how they do…
This was not a doctrinal matter. It was a personal matter on who to take with them. Even though they were in disagreement on Mark, it does not mean they were teaching different things (i.e still in one accord on the Message) Later Paul will say Mark is profitable to the work (2 Tim 4:11 Only Luke is with me. Take Mark, and bring him with thee: for he is profitable to me for the ministry.)
On June 12, 2008 at 9:48 pm walkinlove Said:
“1 Corinthians 1:10…
In the above Paul is clearly dealing with division in the Church. Is this the same Church that is in Acts or a different church? And are those who are being corrected at the moment before they are corrected going to hell for their statements of following someone since they are not in one accord and they must therefore not be submitting to the word?”
Same church.
if they were not “going to hell for their statements” why would Paul correct them and point out that they were wrong from being divided?
They were not submitting to the Word (which Istated last night was needful for unity). Are you truly asking for information or just trying to find a reason/excuse to not be in agreement with everyone else so as to say “it cant be done?”
Is it so difficult to say that when people follows the same rules they get along and when they dont their is trouble?
i did not mean for the smiley tobe there.
I am supposed to be mean and bitter and angry all the time.
I have a rep to uphold
Rick – I want to commend you for being one of the few here willing to state that what Chris did was wrong. It is sad that in their opposition to Johnny many here are willing to overlook the same (or worse) behavior in others.
walkinlove,
I don’t know how much further we can go with this discussion. You’ve raised some interesting points. Let me point you to a verse that you posted earlier:
15Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
Jesus didn’t come to Earth to handle the matters the Pharisees brought to Him, He came to seek and save the lost and to prepare the world for the introduction of His kingdom, the church. In other words, He wasn’t there to deal with the particulars of matters like this. This is not to say that He didn’t follow the Law, but this type of situation wasn’t what He came to handle.
I’ll say this, if you lied and it resulted in the death of another, you were to be killed. When others heard this, it would bring about a fear among all of the people and hopefully keep them from attempting the same. This harmonizes with verse 20. However, if it didn’t result in death, I don’t think you can apply the penalty of verse 21, “life for life”.
Look at our own laws. Can you be executed for attempted murder? No. The Law of Moses was extremely fair, more so than our own laws. Whatever you did to another would be done to you. As I’ve said before, if the Pharisees were lying and were put to death for it, the punishment wouldn’t fit the crime. I also will point out again that it was what they would have had done to the woman that matters and I think the passage clearly points out that the woman was of no concern to them. They only wanted to ensnare Jesus and I don’t think they actually sought to have the woman stoned. They wanted Jesus to set her free and to blaspheme the Law in doing so.
I know that Jesus was perfect and had no sin. If that is true (and it is), that means that He did not violate God’s laws at any time. When we harmonize that with the passage we’re discussing, we must conclude that what Jesus did was the proper thing in the eyes of the Father. That is the simplest conclusion I can give.
I think we’re getting pretty repetitive at this point. This is one of those matters that we may have to agree to disagree upon. While I am normally against that attitude, as it doesn’t affect salvation, worship or manner of life, I think it may be the best route here.
Good morning James I hope you are well!
Oh I agree that unity will come, if at no other time then when we are face to face with Jesus. Pride is the biggest stumbling block I see to unity!
“This was not a doctrinal matter. It was a personal matter on who to take with them. Even though they were in disagreement on Mark, it does not mean they were teaching different things”
Really I see the struggle of the law and grace being fought here, Barnabas is wanting to restore a fallen brother who failed them while Paul who was more prone to being legal wanting to put the mission first and that restoration was second to the mission. So Barnabas would argue that restoration is the mission and Paul disagreed that that totally. This same argument takes place today as those prone to favor grace rub against those prone to the law.
“which are of the house of Chloe”
Why are that not worshiping at the Church of Christ then? Clearly they are at the house of Chloe! Why are they included in the churches of Christ when they are not worshiping in the Church of Christ?
And please understand I am no fan of denominationalism since I am to work out my own salvation I see them only as limitations to my being in a living word.
James I’d be very interested in your truth to why Jesus was able to allow the woman to go free in the passages Corey and I talked about above, I consider you a very intelligent and articulate man and enjoy listening to you when I have the time.
Thanks! The smiles come when you combine : or ; or other symbols with a closing parentheses.
should be with that not that that, sorry!
chris debut on WGSR
Community has turned on him judge for yourself
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=EA847385DF71D430
Really I see the struggle of the law and grace being fought here, Barnabas is wanting to restore a fallen brother who failed them while Paul who was more prone to being legal wanting to put the mission first and that restoration was second to the mission. So Barnabas would argue that restoration is the mission and Paul disagreed that that totally. This same argument takes place today as those prone to favor grace rub against those prone to the law.
I think you see a little more than is really there. Mark had deserted Paul before, so Paul had good reason to question how profitable he would be to them. Barnabas demonstrated with Mark, as he had with Paul, that he believed strongly in second chances. Paul wasn’t being “legalistic”, he was just working with the evidence he had.
Why are that not worshiping at the Church of Christ then? Clearly they are at the house of Chloe! Why are they included in the churches of Christ when they are not worshiping in the Church of Christ?
I know you know better than that. The church of Christ is a spiritual body, not a building of any kind. Those who worshiped in Chloe’s house were the church of Christ. The early Christians worshiped in various locations (homes, the temple, brush arbors). None of the locations were the church, the people were the church.
Hi Corey, hope your day is going well you said:
“I think we’re getting pretty repetitive at this point. This is one of those matters that we may have to agree to disagree upon. While I am normally against that attitude, as it doesn’t affect salvation, worship or manner of life, I think it may be the best route here.”
But Corey isn’t that going to sow a seed of disunity? If we shrug off the minor things because the major things are the same are we letting Satan the false prophet in the door?
Conversely if we do say lets let the little things alone where do we draw the line of little and big? Clearly I can see there would have to be a line draw as to what is major and what is minor.
As for the passage you list, EXCELLENT! It does seem to relieve Jesus of his obligation to uphold the law, along those same lines:
Matthew 23:23 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Could it be that his actions are an example of Matthew 23:23 and that he is upholding the law? But that begs the next question, this is very exciting to me as its new to me, what is the meaning of weightier? It seems to indicate that to uphold the law itself you are required to exercise Judgment, Mercy, and Faith.
Clearly I can see where Jesus is executing Judgment by writing in the sand and calling for those without sin to cast the stone since he knows they can not do it and he is the only one who could. He shows mercy because he does not condemn her. He could have done so, but mercy was weightier then the execution of the law.
Is that how you see this passage factoring into the event? Or would you have a different take on the matter?
Thanks!
Oh Corey I would suggest that our own laws as a nation are not a good example, after all it allows the killing of the unborn!
” This is one of those matters that we may have to agree to disagree upon. ”
Oh that’s bringing unity …..can you see it ?
Nathan
if you aer really all about love why have you not taken chris off your blog roll
I have seen less vulgarity on the worlds blogs than on his about us and WGSR
you just aren’t consistent are you?
Does it suit your agenda to let that kind of unseemly talk go
But Corey isn’t that going to sow a seed of disunity? If we shrug off the minor things because the major things are the same are we letting Satan the false prophet in the door?
Conversely if we do say lets let the little things alone where do we draw the line of little and big? Clearly I can see there would have to be a line draw as to what is major and what is minor.
What I’m saying is that I don’t see any agreement coming between us. The main thing is that you don’t think Jesus did anything wrong. As long as you believe that, we’re at least close enough that I don’t have a serious problem with what you believe, and your beliefs don’t contradict the rest of scripture.
As to the “weightier matters” look at this:
Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
You see, Jesus isn’t saying that our focus is ONLY on the weightier matters because He said that both must be done. You are correct that judgment, mercy and faith must be the greater influence on the rest of God’s laws.
He could have done so, but mercy was weightier then the execution of the law.
There is truth to this. The fact is that Father, Son and Holy Spirit have the ability to show mercy if they choose. Look at King David and compare it to King Saul. David sinned terribly and kept his throne, although God still punished him in several ways. Saul’s sin would seem lesser in the eyes of men, but held a greater punishment with God. God was directly involved and made the decision with Saul & David. Jesus was directly involved and made the decision with the woman and the Pharisees. Both judgments were righteous because they were delivered by deity.
Oh Corey I would suggest that our own laws as a nation are not a good example, after all it allows the killing of the unborn!
How true. My intention was to show that the Law of Moses was actually more fair than our own laws. The punishment always fit the crime. I’ve already explained that I think the execution of the Pharisees wouldn’t have fit their crime based upon verse 21.
Romans 4, What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him righteousness.” Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
But to him who does not work, but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”
Anything of our flesh will not save us.It is our faith in God and believing that Jesus died on the Cross for our sins and God raised Him from the dead that will save us.
Corey I got your take on the reference to our law before, just not very solid ground to stand on because of the totality of the law in place today.
The other thing in the case he was speaking of was:”for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin”
Corey I really think we agree on this, don’t you? Your reference to Saul and David are very much inline with this scripture. In Matthew 23:23 Jesus used judgment the Greek word I believe is krisiv (no idea how to put an actual Greek font style word sorry!) that along with judgment can also mean justice or evaluation and several other meanings I won’t take time to list, realizing they were bring her to try and trap him, he was clearly showing mercy because she is not arguing they lied about her, she is most likely guilty, and Jesus seems to say she is guilty because he is not condemning her for her sin.
sorry again the site I use does not default KJV so sometimes I forget it, I’ll try and do better!
Hello Corey are you still out there? I was waiting for a response on my last post.
walkinlove,
I’m here, but the new feature where comments have to be moderated is so discouraging to dialog that I’m not keeping up with comments like I previously was.
The other thing in the case he was speaking of was:”for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin”
I’m not sure what your point is with this. My point is that there would have been nothing wrong with that tithing, but they were neglecting other areas in doing that. Jesus didn’t say to give up one area to do the other. He was saying that you can do both, as we can today.
Your reference to Saul and David are very much inline with this scripture.
You have to understand that with Saul & David, just like with the woman & the Pharisees, that God/Jesus were directly involved. Whatever their judgment was was the correct one.
and Jesus seems to say she is guilty because he is not condemning her for her sin.
Again I’d ask you to read John 5:14. Just because Jesus acknowledged that she had some sin in her life doesn’t mean it was the sin of adultery.
Corey I really think we agree on this, don’t you?
I’m not sure. I think we agree that Jesus did no wrong, and that is the most important thing. If you think Jesus broke the Law, then we don’t agree and you would be accusing the Lord of breaking His own laws and I would have to oppose that.
I guess I’m left wondering what you’re getting at? Are you trying to say that if we have differences in doctrine today that we’re to have mercy and just accept everyone because that’s what you think Jesus did there?
No I say that Matthew 23:23 states that clearly he did not break the law! I do not think he broke the law because mercy was weighter then the situation’s circumstances dictated.
While it is important to uphold the law we have to use judgment or justice is one meaning of the Greek word, mercy and faith.
You stated that the situation did not warrant death, but it does clearly say they caught her in adultery. Jesus being the perfect judge and able to forgive sin, gave mercy to a poor woman who was being used to catch Jesus.
yes the moderation is unfortunate, it would be nice if they could do selective moderation, thus if you prove that you can remain civil as we have, that we would not need it.
God Bless!