A Bit of Real-time Discussion

“faithful” quoted Matthew 11:16-19:

“But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows, and saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented.  For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.  The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.”

“faithful” wrote:

“In these verses Jesus was saying his critics would never be satisfied. You all won’t be either. I don’t believe you’re interested in the truth , only hiding the gospel and getting as many people to go to hell with you as possible.”

“Answeringchurchofchrist” responded:

“Point of clarification. We are all interested in understanding God and the Truth. What exactly is Truth? Or, who, to be more exact?

“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” John 14:6

That’s what it all boils down to, my friend. Not the name on the sign in front of the place where you worship, not whether or not you use a piano in worship, not the frequency of your observation of the Lord’s Supper – but Jesus.

Now, as to our interest in hiding the gospel, we need to ask… what is “the gospel”?

It’s pretty easily found in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4:

“Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.”

Nobody here is trying to hide that Good News.

As to the part about going to hell, well, I put my trust in Jesus (Eph 1:13), and so I am counting on his work to keep me from that terrible place. I hope to help as many folks as possible to escape that fate as well.”

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36 thoughts on “A Bit of Real-time Discussion

  1. “What exactly is Truth? Or, who, to be more exact?”

    I will tell you that they take this verse and make it the entire bible, but you can guess it…per their doctrinal views. The truth to them is their views and to deny that is not following after truth. These guys put a major spin on many passages – this is one of them.

    Well guys, I am signing off for a while. ttyl

  2. “I don’t believe you’re interested in the truth , only hiding the gospel and getting as many people to go to hell with you as possible.”

    Wow, such loving words faithful, you must be a gem to be around. Is it really that faithful? Do you really believe folks are here to deceive others? You might want to take a hard long look in the mirror and think.

  3. Well put JP. I feel bad for faithful, because I know firsthand the pressure and things on him. The leadship at this Church acts the same way ( worse ) so he is just mocking what he see’s.

  4. “In these verses Jesus was saying his critics would never be satisfied. You all won’t be either. I don’t believe you’re interested in the truth , only hiding the gospel and getting as many people to go to hell with you as possible.”

    So, anyone that disagrees with you is hiding the Gospel and trying to put others on the fast track to Hell? Everyone else is wrong and you are right. Same old same old. Do you think it is possible that someone can look at the same scriptures as you and have sincere disagreements? Why is this so hard to believe? People in your own denomination do so all the time (see arguments over one cups, no kitchens, no bible class, praise teams, musical instruments, support of colleges, preacher schools, and literally tons of other silly issues)

    Which type of Church of Christ is correct?
    Is error free scripture interpretation a necessity to be saved? Do you possess this?

  5. The difference, DMH, is that these guys separate themselves one from the other when some of these silly issues rear their ugly heads. Just look back at the way that faithful has been treating Corey – and s/he’s never shown that s/he and Corey disagree on anything other than disagree on anything other than methodology.

  6. I think DMH was being facetious, faithful. See definition 1 below.

    fa·ce·tious [fuh-see-shuhs]
    –adjective
    1. not meant to be taken seriously or literally: a facetious remark.
    2. amusing; humorous.
    3. lacking serious intent; concerned with something nonessential, amusing, or frivolous: a facetious person.

    Maybe you were, too?

  7. “Everyone else is wrong and you are right. ”

    “I’m glad you a gree”

    Faithful,

    Would you like to address any of the other questions presented?

    Which type of Church of Christ is correct?
    Is error free scripture interpretation a necessity to be saved? Do you possess this?

  8. Faithful,

    You know, I really know where you are coming from. I grew up in the churches of Christ, and I preach for one today. I understand the difficulty of wondering how to take people who call themselves Christians but hold unscriptural views. But, I don’t think that shunning, alienating, or name-calling are the answers. I don’t think claiming a monopoly on “the Truth” is the answer, either. I know I haven’t got it all figured out. Have you? Humility always comes first.

    Do you think Apollos was a false-teacher, deceptively leading people to hell? He may have been wrong, but he was sincerely wrong, and Priscilla and Aquila, recognizing his sincerity, humbly reasoned with him in private. [Acts 18:26] Those of us in the churches of Christ (and many more besides) could learn an invaluable lesson from good old P and A. Let us speak the truth…but let us speak it in love. [Eph 4:15]

  9. Amen, ct-you always have a way of putting things into words so well 🙂 Thank you-I hope they can see the truth shining through.

  10. “Is error free scripture interpretation a necessity to be saved? Do you possess this?”

    Perfect question. Johnny, maybe you can answer this.

  11. Sheep are some of the dumdest animals on earth.

    Joh 8:31 ¶ Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
    32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

  12. maybe it reads to Johnny ” if you understand everything perfectly as I-God have in the word, ye are my disciples”…

  13. The word reads to Johnny the same as he does to you.

    Col 3:25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

  14. Since Johnny enjoys articles that describes splits among church groups I thought maybe he might enjoy this bit of information:

    “According to the Oklahoma Christian University’s Mission Statement, “Oklahoma Christian University is a higher learning community which transforms lives for Christian faith, leadership, and service.” President Mike O’Neal (2002-present) has attempted to make the campus more progressive in its language, its diversity policies, and evangelistic outreach, while retaining the school’s commitment to traditional Biblical principles as generally expressed throughout the Churches of Christ. These efforts can be seen in policy changes,[3] and the appointment of an ethics ombudsman. Full-time, tenure-tracked faculty are still required to be members of a Church of Christ. However, adjunct professors are hired and are not required to be members of a Church of Christ. There is no requirement that students be members of a Church of Christ, but all students are expected to abide by the “OC Covenant”[4] which emphasizes that the “values and behavior of this Christian community are derived from the Bible.” (Wikipedia)

    Oklahoma Christian University and its public relations arm, The Christian Chronicle, needs to stop advancing denominational error among churches of Christ. It is one thing to be battling Baptist baptism within that denomination but quite another to have to expend precious time and energy battling Baptist baptism among our own people!
    In the July edition, Scott Lamascus wrote up his interview with noted author and advocate of Baptist baptism Max Lucado, who is on record as having said, “I would make a good Baptist.” The heading on the page says, “Dialogue,” but there is no dialogue, only monologue from Lucado. His error on baptism is not answered, and it is not expected that it will ever be answered in The Christian Chronicle.
    Lamascus asked Lucado, “What do you teach and believe regarding central beliefs such as baptism?” Lucado answered: “I believe that baptism is essential for obedience. As far as I can tell there is no example of an unbaptized member of the New Testament church. In baptism the believer is identified with the righteous life of Jesus—buried with him, risen with him. Baptism is sacred. We’ve baptized over a hundred souls a year at Oak Hills for several years.
    “At the same time, I strongly resist any effort to trust the act of baptism to save. The work of salvation was finished when Christ said it was, on the cross. Baptism, nor any other work, adds to his completed service. My only contribution to my salvation is my own sin. The glory of redemption is not my baptism—but that a sinner like me could stand fearless and saved before a holy God” (p. 20).
    There is not a Baptist preacher in the entire Southern Baptist Convention who would disagree with Lucado’s position on baptism. The publishing of that error stands as objective, tangible proof that Oklahoma Christian University has turned against the churches of Christ and the Bible doctrine of baptism and seeks their demise. (Gary McDade–Getwell Church of Christ, Memphis Tn)

  15. Al Maxey,Minister & Elder of Cuba Avenue Church of Christ in Alamogordo, New Mexico wrote:

    most within the Churches of Christ do not believe that they, and they alone, are exclusively the One Body universal on the face of the earth, and that all saved persons on the planet will, and must, assemble for worship in a building that reads Church of Christ on the sign above the door. Are there some individuals, and even some congregations, within the Churches of Christ who believe and teach this? Yes, there are. Just as I have no doubt there are some within the Baptist heritage who profess the same. Neither view is biblically correct, and we need to expose such radical, exclusionary, isolationist thinking.

  16. Al Maxey continues,

    Yes, there was a time when some of the more radical factions of our movement declared themselves the only true church on earth, and the “only ones going to heaven.” Some of that thinking still persists in the ultra-conservative wing of the Churches of Christ today, but this is far from the perspective of what might be termed the mainstream within our fellowship. I actually heard an aged elder in the Churches of Christ, many years ago, declare that all humans on the face of the earth had gone straight to hell when they died until the “Campbells came along and got the name above the door right!” I abhor and oppose such nonsense as emphatically as you do. That perspective is not the dominant view among Churches of Christ. Although a few cling to such exclusivist, isolationist thinking (as I’m sure some Baptists do, as well), most thinking disciples realize this is just sectarianism gone to seed.

  17. Yes, I greatly admire people like Al Maxey and others like him who will take a stand against this sectarian mindset. Unfortunately, people like Maxey, Lucado, Cecil Hook, Leroy Garrett, Rick Atchley and many others who have turned or were never apart of this sectarian mindset within the churches of Christ; yet are willing to stay in our heritage and have fully embraced the love and grace of God are then branded “false teachers”, heretics, or whatever other name they can come up with to “mark them” or write them off. They call people like me “change agents” and other labels. They gripe about division when they are actually doing the exact same thing.

    And we are not divided? Riiight. The problem is they really do think they are THE “one true church” and all of us have gone into apostasy and are no longer the “church of Christ”. The whole premise is illogical and absurd.

    Maxey is right, though-it is not the majority (thank goodness) that think as these men do-they just seem to be the most vocal sometimes.

    It is a sad and sometimes surreal world.

  18. My bad-I did not mean to double post-I did not think it went through the first time! 🙂 Hope you are all sleeping well!

    no problem – I deleted one. Nathan

  19. Hello guys
    you all quoted Al Maxey to us is about like us quoting Billy Grhamn to you as an authority in the Baptist
    No one listens to Billy as a Baptist any more, all know he is ?

    Same with Al Maxey.
    Tell them Randy , How fast did Al stop discussing with me when I linked him with Ruebel Shelley whi si with Old Billy?

    Wake up Rick
    Ro 9:6 ¶ Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

    not all that are “in the church” are of God

    2Ti 4:10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.

    Let us quote old Demas (Maxey)

    Don’t you won’t to be fair on this “wonderful” site

  20. Rick posted from Al (Demas) as follows

    On May 30, 2008 at 10:03 pm Rick Said:

    Al Maxey continues,

    Yes, there was a time when some of the more radical factions of our movement declared themselves the only true church on earth, and the “only ones going to heaven.” Some of that thinking still persists in the ultra-conservative wing of the Churches of Christ today, but this is far from the perspective of what might be termed the mainstream within our fellowship.

    Now lets examine;

    Al Maxey admitts here that he is in the “mainstream”

    The mainstream equates to me being “radical”
    Now folks is that true?

    The media today says the “mainstream” America has accepted Homosexual lifestyle as an alternative sexual preference”

    Are you radical Rick since you are out of the “mainstream”

    Al Maxey is a pathetic logician

    All Al has done is show that folks in the church of Christ can get as far off as say Baptist from what they once believed.

    Does that make anyone right because they are a minority or majority?

    No, folks all we have done is let Demas tell us about the change in the church of Christ in the last 30 years.
    We havent in any way determined if truth is with Al or not.

    Good job Al. You have shown that you have become more like Billy Rubel and others who stand for nothing.
    You have not proved anything about truth or error.

    It took two of Nathans folk to debate one person who had two years of training in the Lord’s church. The two presbees had around 50 yrs combined experience, and boy was it one sided.
    Jason was there with his Bible like little ole David of old and boy those “giants” did tumble.

    free debates dvds
    biblesays81@hotmail.com

    ask for the debate and you may receive!

  21. Oh, Johnny-LOTs of people listen to Maxey, and you know why? Because he speaks the truth, and you don’t 🙂 You are just scared of him and those like him because they ruin your agenda.

    You are right-not all in the church are of God. Take a good look in the mirror, buddy. You need to wake up and face the music.

    How is that for truth? 😉

  22. Now, that’s rich, JR. Are you really going to bring up Jason Hairston on this blog?

    If you are, why don’t you bring him up by explaining to the community why Jason left Martinsville Church of Christ soon after that debate where it was so “one sided”? What happened to him? Where did he go? Is he still with you? If not, why not?

    The community has a right to know, JR, and you and Norm and James have been dodging the issue for several months. Time to come clean.

  23. By the way, JR, enjoy posting today, because tomorrow the blog will be closed to comments as we spend the day praying for you, Norm and James.

  24. Please let the community know where you will be gathered together for your prayer so we can avoid the lightning. Unless you’re praying for repentence.

  25. We’re not going to be getting together in person.

    Where in Scripture do you find someone being struck by lightning for praying?

  26. Of course, we would be getting persecuted most when we decide to unite together to pray for those doing the persecuting.

    Thankfully, we have these promises:

    “For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous and his ears are attentive to their prayer, but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil.” ~1 Peter 3:12

    “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.” ~Matthew 5:11-12

    In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. ~2 Timothy 3:12-13

  27. Katherine
    Do you not yet see?
    Jesus said, “for my sake” not because of John Baptist or John Wesley,or Charles T.Russell,etc,etc.

    Mt 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

  28. Nathan
    do you really think we are afraid of your investigation of Jason?
    We give out info on that all the time
    We just dont feel any pressure from your 5 on this site to tell you anything

    We have nothing that bothers us in the area of investigation
    why dont you try to get the facts out
    we dont mind
    this is actually our invitation to u
    randy boy u feel lucky go ahead

    truth never hurts us

  29. What do you think I “not yet see”? EVERYthing I do is for Jesus’ sake and NOT for man!! Where have you ever seen me proclaim otherwise? I am simply a disciple of Christ, and I follow Him with all of my heart-not doctrines or beliefs developed by any man or institution.

    Any persecution I fall under is because I am doing it for His sake-no matter if you choose to accept that or not…my Father knows and accepts me as one of His. When men revile me for following God and not falling in line with them, I will hold tight to the hope and trust I have in God, because I believe in His promises and am surrounded by His wonderful love, mercy, and grace.

    Why do you think you should see to it to keep questioning me?

  30. “truth never hurts us”

    That is an incredibly ironic statement. Truth hurts you all the time because you have chosen to ignore it.

    If you really don’t have anything to hide, then why waste your time skirting around it-why don’t you just explain to us what happened?

  31. Okay, JR, then give us the scoop. I know I’ve never heard you say much about it on your broadcast, even when questioned – which is a huge disservice to your viewing audience considering Jason’s program, and his weekly support of the doctrine you profess.

    Since you “give out info on that all the time”, why don’t you give it out here? If “truth never hurts [you]”, then give us the true story. If there’s nothing to it, then why not?

    My point is – I’ve never heard you say one way or the other, except for doing a sort of tap dance response. This is your chance to disarm this line of argumentation once and for all, if you are willing and able. If not, it will just continue to turn up, like a bad penny.

    Again, the reason this is so important, is that Jason at one time taught and defended the doctrine you profess (“Hammer of Truth”, right?), and if that has changed, you owe it to your TV audience (many of whom visit this blog) to explain why.

  32. If you are the church of the New Testament, how did
    you survive The Dark Ages when there were no churches
    except the Roman Catholic Church. You would not have
    survived that persecution, none did. You are no more
    the Church that was established in 33a,d. than any other church/ There were no other churches except the Roman
    Catholic until 1798.

  33. In my view, it is helpful to study church history from the New Testament period through the Medieval centuries. Here one can observe the emergence of monasticism, purgatory, the cult of saints, the papacy, the elevation of Mary, the development of baptism from immersion to puring in the 13th century,etc. The bottom line is: change happens. There is a story behind everything and a way to appreciate why ideas change as they do. I urge all readers to engage in such a study, and I would be happy to facilitate. My email is counsellor@uniserve.com

  34. The Gospel that Yeshua preached and taught is found in precept in Leviticus 23. It is found in Malachi, chaper 4, verses 4, 5 and 6 (all three. Now, don’t breathe until you have read all three verses. The Gospel is found in Ezekiel 36, verses 26 and 27, and other places in the book of the “Jewish” prophet Ezekiel, God said, “I will put My Laws, My Statutes and My Judgements on their inward parts. I will take away their hearts of stone and put within them a heart of flesh.”

    In other words, every time a believer in Yeshua (Jesus) thinks about the Life of Jesus Christ (Yeshua Hamaschiach,” Jesus the Messiah, when he prays, or sings, or drinks of the cup of Redemption, Deliverance, Sanctification, Judgement, the believer then understands the entire Plan of Salvation, from start to finish. How can one do that and not love Yeshua?

    He said, “Behold, I make all things new.” He did not say, “I came not to destroy the Law or the prophets, but to fulfill,” then turn around and destroy that which he died that we might keep in the purest sense possible because we want to live as He lived. Wanting to because of what His four cups and the Seder altogether, mean.

    The only thing the ethnic Jews missed was seeing the coming Messiah in the animal sacrificial system and Temple rituals. Their rabbis and teachers had misled them into a selfish set of hundreds of regulations that oblitierated to the first chosen people the essense of the pre-incarnate Yeshua. The rabbi’s had even made a regulation that allowed a young man to take from his parents their land and home if the young man gave it to the Temple priests.

    That was one of many man-made rules that caused the first Christians (the ethnic, practicing Jewish people) to break the Law of Moses that contained the Ten Commandments and the Laws, Statutes and Judgements that explained to the people how to keep the Ten Commandments.

    The change that came about when Yeshua gave up His own life to take our well deserved place, was that He caused the Plan of God’s Salvation to us through Yeshua, His Son, to take the place of man’s promises to God, made more than once at Mt. Sinai. Man could not do it by himself, as man imagined he could.

    But, the Moral Law; the civil Laws, Statutes and Judgements which include the annual holy convocations, the Congregations of Meeting, and the annual sabbaths. Each of them contains a theme from the Plan of Salvation. He said that they are to be kept “throughout all your generations, forever.”

    When we become baptized into Christ, we become Abraham’s seed, heirs according to the promise (the only promise of Salvation ever made by the pre-incarnate Christ), we then become practicing Jews. That is, we practice the religion that Jesus defended in Matthew only a short time before He took the place of the animal sacrifices: “The rabbi’s and teachers sit in Moses’ seat and teach. Listen to them, but do not do as they do. For, they say, but do not do.” But, when they sit in Moses’s seat in the synagogues, LISTEN to them and DO what they SAY.

    They were under a strict oath that allowed them only to read from the written Torah. Their own blighted sayings and things the scribes wrote down for them, were to be cast aside. Christ said: “They lay heavy burdens on the people, making the Law of none effect.” He was not talking about the Moral Law He gave to Moses at Sinai.

    His sacrifice is what gives us all a real chance at Salvastion. Where the regulators regulated, He simply took the people back to His Law of Love, given at Sinai. Now we do them, but without animal sacrifices and earthly priests whose servides are no longer needed.

    God bless you as we become one in Messiah. He will come again as promised on, or near the Feast of Trumpets, and Tabernacle with us again, and we will remember to keep the Passover Seder with Him as He promised to do in the earth made new. It is both the history of redemption, and still prophecy.

    Now, you understand the Gospel that “is of the Jews.”
    Have a happy Shabbat this coming week, and remember “He arose on the third day (OF PASSOVER thatjust happened to happen on the first day of the week.) Each year it changes to some other day of the week.

    Ray

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