An interesting video from a former CofC person

Thanks to Katherine for the heads up on this video. Thoughts?

Advertisements

134 thoughts on “An interesting video from a former CofC person

  1. I like his comments about love, and his comments that some sects of the CofC have made the whole thing about being baptized right and learning all the right doctrine when the message of Christ is a message of love.

  2. That was interesting. I have a couple of observations:

    What is love? Is it a feeling? Is it emotions? In John 3:16 we see that God’s love was neither. It was action. It was sacrifice. We show our love today to our fellow man through action and sacrifice. We show our love to God through obedience. Like Jesus said, “if you love me keep my commandments”.

    Again, he brings up people who are sincere in their faith and desire to be obedient yet never hear the full truth. What about those who do hear the full truth but reject it? Haven’t they gone from the expectations of a young child to one who is grown?

    You’ve been taught some things about an issue like baptism and you did your best with them. Later, you’re taught more fully. Do you do your best with them, or do you write them off because you’re content with your earlier understanding? That is what I see many doing. To use his example, they’re 15, but they’re content with what they learned at 5.

  3. I understand that corey and I would agree. Much like the scripture referring to “talking like a child”. Of course as we grow in wisdom and knowledge we will grow in our spiritual understanding.

    My question I guess is this..

    If in growing in such knowledge we are continually making changes in our lives to be more Christ-like, to follow more fervently the things of the Lord we are obviously making efforts. I guess I’m not seeing the scripture that says that in so doing we must fully understand every action and that if we do not we are not truly saved. Dont know if that makes sense, I’ll clarify if necessary.

  4. Katie wrote: I guess I’m not seeing the scripture that says that in so doing we must fully understand every action and that if we do not we are not truly saved.

    I would hope no one would say you have to understand every action perfectly. There are some things that are difficult to understand. How can we, as fallible humans, understand all the ways of God. He has already told us that we can’t.

    However, we can’t go saying that everything in scriptures is a mystery. Baptism is a great example. We need to look at every passage that relates to it. That may take some time. In the end, we can see that there is little about it that we can’t understand. One thing I can’t understand is why God would require it. I have come to accept that it isn’t my job to question the motives of God. I have also come to understand that most of our problems with things like baptism are just that – OURS. The Bible is about as clear about the necessity of baptism as it can possibly be. The only time we can have a problem with it is when we’ve already been taught that it isn’t necessary or that it is to be done after we’re already saved. If people weren’t taught that would there be so much misunderstanding? I think not.

    In the Baptist church you teach that baptism is for adults. You teach that it is by immersion. You teach that it is symbolic of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. You teach all of those things correctly. How do you know those things? Because you appeal to the word of God for your understanding. You acknowledge that some things, even most things, about baptism can be known. If scriptures also teach that baptism is unto the remission of sins and occurs prior to our salvation, why not accept those scriptures as well?

    These teachings on baptism are neither mysterious or cryptic. They are pretty straight-forward.

  5. Great clip ! I am seeing more and more people turning from the legalistic ways that are taught in some church of Christ churches and turning to a grace centerd gospel. Thanks Katherine !

  6. Joh 14:15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.
    Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
    Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.
    1Jo 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
    1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
    2Jo 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
    (KJV)

  7. Great verses Faithful !!! And thank God for His grace and mercy when we fail to keep them all PERFECTLY.

  8. Now, THAT is something I can agree with and Amen, faithful!! 🙂

    We follow God and obey His commandments out of LOVE for God-not out of duty or fear-but because HE first loved us, and we are grateful for His faithful and unfailing love.

    I am fully on board with that!!

    The thing to remember is that His commandments are not grevious or burdensome (1 John 5:3), and that His yoke is easy and His burden is light (Matthew 11:30). He calls us to come.

  9. So…let’s being up a case study…

    Cornelius (Acts 10) was a devout, sincere man, gave alms, prayed to God continuously. It was this devotion and sincerity that caused God to look on Him with favor and provide Peter to teach him what he and his household needed to know to be saved. If sincerity were enough Cornelius had it…but he was missing something.

    I know a likely response would be that he may have been sincere, but his faith was not in the only One who can save, Jesus Christ. But, then, what is the difference between sincere devotion to God, and faith in Christ…at least in Cornelius’ situation…what was he missing? Doctrine, teaching…he had to learn about Christ. His sincerity was not enough.

    Cornelius is a prime example of the fallacy of “what you don’t know can’t hurt you.” I agree with the overall premise of the video…that more is expected of those who have been given more. But there is a minimum expectancy. There are “essential doctrines”…or am I missing something from Cornelius?

  10. It’s funny that you bring up Acts 10, as I’ve asked about this situation before myself, but looking at it from a different POV.

    My question was – can a person who is not saved be given the gift of the Holy Spirit – because these people received the Holy Spirit after Peter told them this:

    “All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.” Acts 10:43

    Then, after this happened, they were baptized. This begs the question – can the Holy Spirit come before salvation?

    The response I’ve been given before was that this was an unusual occurrence that took place so that the Apostles would know that the Gentiles were acceptable by God. However, it seems that that is interjecting personal interpretation into the text.

    As to your question, I would agree, that there are essentials. But in the end, God will sort out the sheep and the goats (Matthew 25:31–46) and I’m grateful that I don’t have that job. But, the Word tells us that Jesus is the way, truth, and life, and nobody comes to the Father except through Him (John 14:6), and that’s what I believe, and that’s what I tell people when I am given and take the opportunity.

    In conclusion, I think Cornelius is an example of sincerity not being enough. As you said, he needed to learn about Christ.

  11. “Katie wrote: I guess I’m not seeing the scripture that says that in so doing we must fully understand every action and that if we do not we are not truly saved.

    I would hope no one would say you have to understand every action perfectly. There are some things that are difficult to understand. How can we, as fallible humans, understand all the ways of God. He has already told us that we can’t”

    Thinking it’s the action is the same mistake the jews made. It’s faith in the what happens during the action. The baptist , methodist, presbyterians do not baptize for the remission of sin. They believe the remission has already taken place. So if it’s already taken place how can one have faith it’s happening durring the baptism? They can’t.

  12. faithful,

    Please check out my last comment regarding Corey.

    Thank you,
    Nathan

  13. Hopefully one day those in the Churches of Christ and other legalistic denominations (and yes, the Churches of Christ ARE a denomination) will see that love is the center of it all, not “following commandments.”

    It’s interesting to note that out of the “5 steps of salvation,” love is never mentioned; nor is love mentioned as a part of the “essentials” for what constitutes a Church of Christ and what doesn’t.

    To quote Black Eyed Peas (lol), “Where is the love?!”

  14. Amen, Erik-Amen. After all, what are the two greatest commands? To Love God with all of your heart, soul, mind, and strength-and to love your neighbor.

    How has that been left out of the conversation so much?! God is LOVE, and that is part of the main essence of the message of the Good News-that “God so loved the world He sent His Son so we would have everlasting life” 🙂

  15. From “Faithful” > Thinking it’s the action is the same mistake the jews made. It’s faith in the what happens during the action. The baptist , methodist, presbyterians do not baptize for the remission of sin. They believe the remission has already taken place. So if it’s already taken place how can one have faith it’s happening durring the baptism? They can’t.

    From Randy: Mark 16:16 He who believes and unsderstands that his faith at baptism saves him, he shall be saved.

    Col. 2:11-12 God does the work in baptism “when” you understand that He grants forgivness in baptism.

    Gal. 3:26-27 You are clothed with Christ “when” you understand that baptism is connected to forgiveness.

    Acts 3:28 Repent and understand baptism perfectly and you will be forgiven, but if you fail or lack some understanding, too bad, you will not recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit. Please see one of the church of Christ preachers for an explanation, or risk having an invalid baptism, and thy will re-batize you again whenyou understand baptism perfectly, but dont worry about rest of the verse ” you shall recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit” because most dont undertstand this, so we let this part of the verse slide….come on now faithful…..surely you see your folly

  16. did someone add something to those verses mention above? I sure didn’t read that in those verses.

  17. The case of Cornelius in Acts 10 is a unique one. By pouring out the Holy Spirit on he and his house it did more than just show that Gentiles were now to be accepted.

    Verse 45 tells us that the Holy Spirit had been “poured out onto the Gentiles”. That fulfilled the prophecy of Joel that had been partially fulfilled on Pentecost. Remember that Joel’s prophecy was that the Holy Spirit would be poured out on “all flesh”. That can only mean two things – every person, or every “kind” of person. Since the Holy Spirit is not poured out onto muslims, atheists, etc. we can know that it must mean every kind of flesh. God only saw two kinds of flesh – Jews and Gentiles. After this occurrence the Holy Spirit had been “poured out” onto every kind of flesh.

    Notice that immediately after this happened that Peter had Cornelius and his house to be baptized in water. If the pouring out of the Holy Spirit alone was enough for salvation it seems odd that they would need to be immersed in water unless there was still something lacking.

    Because of all of this, in harmony with the rest of scriptures, I have to conclude that yes, the unsaved could have the Holy Spirit poured out on them. There is no other case like this in the NT and can’t be forced to apply to us today. Was the Holy Spirit poured out onto you like Cornelius’ household when you first heard the gospel? No. That forces us to respond to the gospel like all of the other examples in the NT – and that includes water baptism prior to salvation.

    I agree that only God will separate the sheep and the goats. I would hope that no one would take a chance on being a goat when it is so easy to become one of the sheep.

  18. I became baptized in order to be more like Christ, not out of necessity of salvation lest I burn in hell. Our actions shouldn’t be motivated out of, “Well, I don’t want to go to hell.” Love should be the motivator; we should strive to be LIKE Christ, not simply following (what we think) are his commandments. It’s starting to become more egocentric and Christ is out of the picture.

  19. Rick, I added what they believe. I know what the verses state, but they want to add that baptism must be understood to be connected to forgiveness of sins, or its invalid. I was just making light of their folly.

  20. From Erik: Our actions shouldn’t be motivated out of, “Well, I don’t want to go to hell.”

    From Randy: I think Erik is so right here and I fear that many seek salvation just to escape hell, and not truly repent of their sins, but only seek to dodge the bullet. Those is the bible seen their rotten selves of sin and seeked a savior to cover them, making them pleasing to God and that should be the heart of every sinner who desires to be saved.

  21. I must say I agree quite a bit with Corey and I just cant see why people fight baptism to the degree they do as if we are suggesting its a work of merit. We are no more calling baptism a work of merit than we are calling repenting a work of merit. They are acts from faith and none alone can save anyone. We are saved by grace through faith…notice its through faith we believe – its through faith we repent – its through faith we confess Christ – and its through failth we are baptized – not of works lest we boast.

  22. I do think we talk a bit too much on baptism and neglect what all Christ has done for us, but I know and understand the reason this is pushed so much on people too. Johnny and others want people to see the connection between faith and baptism, but they often just push people away due to their attitudes.

    To me, it is quite obvious that one can be baptized outwardly without being baptized inwardly. The rite of baptism cannot make us true Christian – if there is no Spiritual content to the outward exercise, baptism becomes no more than an superstition. That, of course, is obvious, and there is only Spiritual content where faith has been exercised, in obedience to the truth. This is why Johhny and others deem denominational baptism as nothing but getting wet – they see your baptism as invalide because you lacked the faith in the truth, but I disagree, because your faith also produced obedience and you acted upon truth. Jesus commanded baptism and in faith we all followed that command and God will act upon the faithful heart, not upon how smart one is, or how well you understood the doctrine of baptism. Please know that Johnny, James, and Norm are a rare breed of men within the churches of Christ, and most would not agree with their tactics. There are countless churches of Christ people who would consider you their brother and sister in Christ.

  23. Thanks Randy. I assumed that that was the case, just wanted to be sure. I do appreciate the spirit in which you share your thoughts. I would express that for Corey as well even in the midst of our disagreements.

    And would someone please tell Faithful I said, thanks but no thanks. I will not enter into the TV debate mousetrap. It would be like going into a sheep pen filled with wolves.

  24. I dont blame you or anyone for not wanting to debate these men. They really want to debate for the purpose of making everyone look bad and not for the purpose to win the lost. They already know your belief and doctrine as well as you, but only wish to bring you on air, so they can take your clips afterwards and play them over and over. Its a no-win situation with them – even if you make valid points, and even if you come out like the winner, they will still take clip after clip and try to make you look bad. If they are so interrested in discussing the bible as they pretend, then they could easily come on here and make their case, but see, they dont want that. They want to show everyone how fast they are with scripture and how well prepared they are to make their case live on air. They ofetn use Paul, saying he debated daily with people – I think Paul had the right spirit about this and he wasnt out to win some contest or debate, but to seek and save the lost. Here is why they prefer live debates – once they talk someone into this, they then send these debates back to Texas and a few other states and show their supporters how good of a job they are doing – I suggest that nobody ever debate them aagain and what would really hurt them is if people would just stop calling in too…that would drive them nuts because they feed on this stuff…they cant just simply preach the cross and Christ, they would be unhappy with that – what they want is a real good fuss, so they can show thier guys in Texas and other placees how schooled they are in the bible…in others word “keep getting a paycheck”. BTW, this didnt come from me, but from one of their own preachers; he told me this. I have talked with people from Georgia to Texas about these men…so yes, never, never give them what they want…if they really wanted people to see the truth, post it here in black and white…I bet they wont !

  25. One more thing too – If these local people really want Johnny, James, and Norm off of Cable 18 – the best way is for ALL of the other Christian programs to pull off Cable 18 and go to Channel 40 or even BTW. As long as Charles has others on air preaching, he will not ban Johnny, but if all were to pull off, then Charles will see his money walking away. Call the preachers on there and suggest this or send me their numbers to randycraiger@yahoo.com and I will. I dont watch them on TV anymore, because its the same oh stuff every week, but I would be gald to help anyway I can

  26. “I dont blame you or anyone for not wanting to debate these men. They really want to debate for the purpose of making everyone look bad and not for the purpose to win the lost. ”

    Evil surmizing on your part Randy?

  27. Nope, simple truth-faithful. We can all see it for what it really is-evil and manipulative.

    You never answered my question from way back on this subject anyway.

    Nor have you faced Corey’s question…

    Are you having a hard time facing truth?

  28. Just watch those clips of the debate with Armando Deloa. Or recall the debate with Jeff Black. The apparent goal in those debates from the perspective of the viewer? To make these men (and by extension – the doctrines they represented) seem foolish.

    Now, that may not have been the intent at all. But what matters in the world of television broadcasting is what is received by the audience, not what is intended.

  29. Keep in mind “faithful” I lined up the debate with Jason and Jeff black – I know quite well how you guys act !

    I was with James once after they confronted a preacher in NC and Johnny told Jasmes to go back and call him a coward…very Christ like and very loving…

  30. I like Randy’s suggestion about encouraging the local churches broadcasting on Star Tv to leave Star TV for another station. Unfortunately Johnny would just either switch as well or drum up enough sympathy cash from his supporters to add his program to another station as well.

  31. I’ve been called a coward and “spineless” by one of their supporters in Texas who regurgitates their doctrine and supports their methodology.

    I consider it a badge of honor.

  32. Katherine wrote: Nor have you faced Corey’s question…

    Are you having a hard time facing truth?

    You know what is really interesting about you faithful? You want all of these people here to admit that their worship is incorrect, that their churches aren’t the church of the Bible and that their doctrines are wrong, but you won’t even admit that you wrongly slandered a brother.

    I’ve asked you to explain to me my “sinful and rebellious behavior” or false teaching about 6 times now. Nathan has asked you to explain it. Katherine has asked you to explain it. You continue to post, but conveniently overlook my questions. Is it because you are wrong and don’t want to admit it? The hypocrisy is so thick I can almost cut it with a knife.

  33. Corey,

    If faithful‘s recent behavior towards you is an example of the fruit of the teachings of Johnny, James, and Norm, then it would seem that while the folks in these three churches are taught many things, confession and humility may not be a part of that teaching. This would also seem to be directly in violation of Matthew 5:23-24.

    It’s a pity. faithful had a chance to show a positive side of things coming from these three churches.

  34. The display of contempt and overly judgemental spirit by folks like J-N-J (and evidently faithful) are exactly the reason area churches have begun to demand that these guys and their represenatives leave and stay off of their church properties. As I have expressed many times before, their vicious reputations precede them.

  35. To faithful again…

    I think there is still the possibility for you to address Corey’s concerns and not lose face. The ball is in your court.

  36. whats so hard Faithful, could pride be in your way? It’s easy Faithful, just tell Corey you are sorry and move on, or prove what you stated about/to him.

  37. i watched a 11 part video on you tube from the john ankerburg show. its a debate with the coc from the 80s i think. you may want to watch
    lee

  38. i watched a 11 part video on you tube from the john ankerburg show. its a debate with the coc from the 80s i think. you may want to watch. remember cory i said some time back,lose a brother gain one.
    lee

  39. Lee,

    I’ve watched the same video. To a degree, the host does the same thing that people accuse J, N & J of doing. He acts like it is an honest debate and that both sides are going to be heard out. He then does little scenes that are just him, trying to discredit those who were teaching the necessity of baptism prior to salvation. Sure, he does it with a smile on his face and a kind tone, but he’s trying to tell anyone watching that the faith-only guys are actually right. I believe in being kind and honest, not just one or the other.

  40. Corey is right – John Ankerburg does tend to focus upon his own points more. However, I don’t think John A. goes from church to church asking questions and loaded with a spy cam, nor does he condemd all others to hell, who disagree with him. Maybe tone, kindness do go far in a debate, and maybe calling people names like coward and other names dont. Either way, I am a suck er for a good debate, but I rather read them than hear them, seeing the oral debates often turn to mud slinging and many points get lost in the mud. If Johnny wishes to debate and topic, come on here and do so. This way both sides can properly gather thier thoughts and leave the mud slinging to others. I challenge anyone of them to debate something written for all to see – pick your topic Johnny and as you say ” come from behind the walls”. Come on here and allow your comments to be forever written…just dont do as Shawn from Topix and get banned because you resort to name calling when things dont go as you plan. You cant control things here as you can on TV, you cant play clips over and over on here – you wont come from behind the walls and have a writen deabte, if Nathan doesnt mind, please offer him a topic to discuss and Im sure he could debate you guys on any topic now, seeing he has studied your doctrine as well as you have his….we are waiting…but we also know, you will never come on here and risk your words being forever recorded

  41. “Are you having a hard time facing truth?

    Is this the question? I’ve found the truth but I could ask the same question back to you.. My questions were never answered before so why should I rush to answer yours. Mine have never been answered

  42. “That forces us to respond to the gospel like all of the other examples in the NT – and that includes water baptism prior to salvation”

    What? Show me where they were saved before the baptism!

  43. “You cant control things here as you can on TV, you cant play clips over and over on here ”

    Translation. Johnny can’t expose me as well here and show everyone in the community . Only those on the net.

  44. “Is this the question? I’ve found the truth but I could ask the same question back to you.. My questions were never answered before so why should I rush to answer yours. Mine have never been answered.”

    Well, faithful if you would pay attention-you would know that it was Katie that asked the questions, and I have answered yours.

    What I am asking you to answer are the allegations you have given against Corey-for Corey’s sake-not mine. Why will you not answer? You have a Biblical call to-you need to face it.

  45. To help you out a bit, faithful-on May 15 at 8:31 am you directed this comment to Corey:

    Why drag Johnny into your sin? Does he not have responibilty to guard his own soul? You know the old saying misery loves company . We will not let you drag us into your sinful rebellous behavior

    He then asked you what you were referring to, has asked you numerous times since, and Nathan and I have asked you to answer. You are the one who made the original allegation, so it is YOUR responsibility to elaborate and explain what you meant. If it was made hastily, then here is your chance to apologize-if you stand by your statement, then please explain to your brother Corey.

  46. No I have asked before “are these men saved? I ‘ll go back and find the exact quotes

  47. So let me understand. All of this preperation instead of being ready to give an answer? 1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: {fear: or, reverence}
    (KJV)

    Is this verse a sugestion or a commandment?
    Are thses men in the Lord’s church really lost?
    If they are lost should all lost people be treated in the manner you describe? And would you want to treated in the manner you describe? Golden Rule? They have said they welcome the questions so …..?

  48. I didn’t know anyone had asked me any specific questions.
    If I didn’t answer someone’s question, I apologize. I’ll answer what I can of anything that is specifically directed at me. I was absent last weekend because I was graduating. 🙂

  49. Is everyone here aware that we are told that someone’s conversion in the new testament is out pattern?

  50. faithful,

    You are a piece of work. It’s very simple – you accused Corey of “sinful, rebellious behavior”, and never backed up that accusation.

    This is what we’re asking about – on Corey’s behalf – because he asked you several times to explain that accusation.

    You do realize that Corey agrees with you on most things, right?

    Anyway – please tell Corey why you accused him of “sinful, rebellious behavior”.

    Thank you.

  51. Yes, Katie-congrats on graduating!! That is awesome!! 🙂

    I think faithful was getting the two of us confused, that is why I made the distinction-not trying to call you out.

    Hope you are doing great!!

  52. OK FAITHFUL…Here it is again to help you out-this is what YOU wrote in regards to Corey…

    To help you out a bit, faithful-on May 15 at 8:31 am you directed this comment to Corey:

    “Why drag Johnny into your sin? Does he not have responibilty to guard his own soul? You know the old saying misery loves company . We will not let you drag us into your sinful rebellous behavior”

    He then asked you what you were referring to, has asked you numerous times since, and Nathan and I have asked you to answer. You are the one who made the original allegation, so it is YOUR responsibility to elaborate and explain what you meant. If it was made hastily, then here is your chance to apologize-if you stand by your statement, then please explain to your brother Corey.

    Are you going to continue to make yourself look bad and not answer or actually face the question?

  53. Hmm..I detect a familiar tactic.. frustrate, aggravate, and irritate your opponent as much as possible. Where did Faithful learn that?

  54. cory,
    did you notice that the coc guys on the video never answered the question about if they considered the other men on the panel brothers.
    i am sure that john knew their answer before asking but they sure did protest the question.
    and i would say there is nothing wrong with saying who he believed to be correct at the end of the show. it looked fair to me. how was he dishonest? everyone was heard and respected.seemed like a model show.
    lee

  55. read again Faithful – does it say go into the churches and ask them questions with a loaded camera or does is say be ready when “you are ask”

    1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: {fear: or, reverence}

  56. Froam Rick: Hmm..I detect a familiar tactic.. frustrate, aggravate, and irritate your opponent as much as possible. Where did Faithful learn that?

    – you are so right Rick – this way they can evade the question…and just babble on

  57. lee wrote:

    did you notice that the coc guys on the video never answered the question about if they considered the other men on the panel brothers.
    i am sure that john knew their answer before asking but they sure did protest the question.
    and i would say there is nothing wrong with saying who he believed to be correct at the end of the show. it looked fair to me. how was he dishonest? everyone was heard and respected.seemed like a model show.

    I’m guessing they didn’t answer whether or not they considered the other men brothers because they don’t. When some teach a plan of salvation other than what is in the Bible it is hard to call them “brother”. They should have answered if they didn’t. I don’t remember everything about those videos.

    I agree that it would have been fine to say who he thought was correct at the end of the show, but that isn’t what he did. He has segments with him alone during the show, where he can’t be refuted.

    Imagine that Norm debated someone from your church on tv. Let’s say that during that debate there would be scenes where Johnny came on and backed up what Norm was saying, but Johnny’s points couldn’t be challenged because they were done outside of the debate. Would that be fair? I don’t think so. That is what the host did during those debates. I wouldn’t say that it is totally dishonest, but it certainly isn’t fair.

  58. faithful wrote:

    “That forces us to respond to the gospel like all of the other examples in the NT – and that includes water baptism prior to salvation”

    What? Show me where they were saved before the baptism!

    Do you understand the word “prior”? That means “before”. So, when I said “that includes water baptism prior to salvation” it means that it comes “before” salvation. This is what the Bible says, and what I’m sure you teach. Since I didn’t say that salvation comes before baptism, I’m still waiting to hear what false teachings I’ve presented or where my “sinful and rebellious” behavior is.

    Can I expect an honest answer from a dishonest person?

    James 3:9With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in God’s likeness. 10Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers, this should not be. 11Can both fresh water and salt water flow from the same spring? 12My brothers, can a fig tree bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water.

  59. “Do you understand the word “prior”? That means “before”. So, when I said “that includes water baptism prior to salvation” it means that it comes “before” salvation. This is what the Bible says, and what I’m sure you teach. Since I didn’t say that salvation comes before baptism, I’m still waiting to hear what false teachings I’ve presented or where my “sinful and rebellious” behavior is.

    I do apologize I miss read your statement.

    If you have not obeyed the gospel and are in the Lord’s church then you have rejected the truth and displayed a sinful and rebellious behavior. It’s really very simple.

  60. “Imagine that Norm debated someone from your church on tv. Let’s say that during that debate there would be scenes where Johnny came on and backed up what Norm was saying, but Johnny’s points couldn’t be challenged because they were done outside of the debate. Would that be fair? I don’t think so. That is what the host did during those debates. I wouldn’t say that it is totally dishonest, but it certainly isn’t fair.”

    Anyone can purchase air time. Charles doen’t limit sales .

  61. ” On May 20, 2008 at 5:52 am Randy Said:
    Froam Rick: Hmm..I detect a familiar tactic.. frustrate, aggravate, and irritate your opponent as much as possible. Where did Faithful learn that?

    – you are so right Rick – this way they can evade the question…and just babble on”

    If you would read your bible you would know.

    1Ki 18:27 And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked.

  62. ““Why drag Johnny into your sin? Does he not have responibilty to guard his own soul? You know the old saying misery loves company . We will not let you drag us into your sinful rebellous behavior”

    He then asked you what you were referring to, has asked you numerous times since, and Nathan and I have asked you to answer. You are the one who made the original allegation, so it is YOUR responsibility to elaborate and explain what you meant. If it was made hastily, then here is your chance to apologize-if you stand by your statement, then please explain to your brother Corey.

    Are you going to continue to make yourself look bad and not answer or actually face the question?”

    I didn’t see the question. I’m talking about where he was complaining about not being served the Lord’s supper here not being a member

  63. If you have not obeyed the gospel and are in the Lord’s church then you have rejected the truth and displayed a sinful and rebellious behavior. It’s really very simple.

    First off, it is impossible to not obey the gospel and somehow be in the Lord’s church. Don’t you know that? I have obeyed the gospel, I’m sure the same way you have. I heard, believed, repented, confessed and was immersed for the remission of sins. Isn’t that what you did?

    I didn’t see the question. I’m talking about where he was complaining about not being served the Lord’s supper here not being a member

    You seem to have some trouble with reading comprehension, so let me help you out – I never complained about not being served the Lord’s Supper. I simply said that no one has ever asked me if I’m a member of the church of Christ before offering me the Lord’s Supper. If they had asked they would have found out that I am. My point was simply that it isn’t our job to question each person before they take the Lord’s Supper – the Lord will sort that out.

    Now, that is completely different from calling someone “brother” who isn’t. We should know what someone believes before we consider them a brother in Christ. It is different from letting someone come in the congregation and begin teaching before we know what they believe – we need to know that first, lest we let in a wolf in sheep’s clothing.

    I didn’t see the question.
    Are you going to lie and say you didn’t see the questions I asked you 5 or 6 times (most of the time put in bold text so you couldn’t miss them)?

  64. did people who died before the death of christ have to obey the gospel or not? i have heard it said on this site before that god can save people anyway he chooses.
    that is how they seem to get around the different ways people such as the thief was saved.
    tell me at what time did jesus say to him ….you are born again? and in what verses in the new testament did christ save anyone? i know he forgave many sins but that
    does not negate the fact that he said you must be born again. no one could be until his death.
    without the sheading of blood is no remission of sins. did jesus preach the gospel to all the old testament saints and they accepted it in hell? and if so were they baptised there?
    remember they obeyed god with their sacrefices and the commandments. but the blood of bulls and goats could
    only cover sin………never remove it,never.
    i am telling you that was the most powerful revival in history. praise god!
    lee

  65. Here we go again with our “obeying the gospel” formula. Katherine and each one here has done each step of our so-called formula – believed, repented, confessed and was immersed, but we end up back at the cross roads again with “for the remission of sins” as if one must understand this perfectly before God will honor His word ( Mark 16:16 ) and other places. And I know that almost every single person that was baptized per the church of Christ teaching ( for the purpose of remission of sins, did NOT understand the remaining part of the verse ” and ye shall recieve the gigt of the Holy Spirit”. If you MUST understand part of the verse to make baptism valid, then you MUST usderstand it all…wwe have so focused upon baptism that we neglect Christ and the cross. How often has “faithful” said anything about the blood, or work on the cross? All I read is the so-called 5 step formula…if one is baptized He has obeyed the command of Christ and God will do as He promised, not what some cofC preachers think they know….

  66. Very well put, Randy-and you are right on target. I did not understand the last part until much later in life, and am still discovering what that means! That is the great thing-baptism is an important step in following Jesus, but not THE end all-it is part of the journey of growing in and following Christ-learning more about Him, living in His will, and coming closer to Him in the process. I realize more now than ever how incredible the love and grace of God is, and the blood that Jesus shed on the cross for my sins is-and the power found in it. That is why I hate it when we place more on what we do while taking the emphasis off of what God does. God is more powerful and amazing than our human minds can EVER comprehend, and we have no right nor the ability to limit what He can and does do, so why would we want to? If we had to understand it ALL (which we do not), then none of us would ever have a chance. Does that mean we don’t try to understand? Of course not-we try to be as faithful as we can-because we love God and WANT to please Him…but in the end it is not what we do that saves us, it is God who saves…and I am so incredibly thankful for that!! I will continue to live in His grace, mercy, and love-because that is the essence of who God is! 🙂

  67. Faithful, Faithful, prove that one MUST understand PERFECTLY that baptism is for the purpose of remission of sins. And explain why part of Acts 2:38 MUST be understood PERFECTLY, but not the end of the verse. Did Jesus say “He who believes and understands PERFECTLY that baptism is connected to God granting forgiveness will be saved”? Who does the work in baptism per Col. 2:11-12 ? In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. Maybe this verse should read, “,buried with Him in baptism upon your perfect understanding that baptism is where you contact the blood, in which you also were raised with Him through your perfect understanding and faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. Maybe Gal. 3:27 should read “For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ – if you understood baptism is where you contact the blood and understand the doctrine and teachings of baptism perfectly, otherwise, your lack of understanding prohibits God from acting in baptism”…………GET REAL !!

  68. Lee wrote:
    did people who died before the death of christ have to obey the gospel or not?

    They had to follow the Law of Moses (or the direct commands of God before Moses) in anticipation of the savior who was to come. It wasn’t until Jesus came that those sins could finally be forgiven.

    Lee wrote:
    did jesus preach the gospel to all the old testament saints and they accepted it in hell?

    Jesus never preached in Hell. If you’re referring to 1 Peter 4:6, it is accurately translated that he was preached to some that are already dead. Even if they were preached to before He came to earth, they were preached to that He would come through Moses and the prophets.

    Lee wrote:
    …the thief was saved.
    tell me at what time did jesus say to him ….you are born again?

    Did Jesus have to use those words? He told the thief that he would be in Paradise with Him that day. That is a prime example of Jesus saving someone because He had the authority to do so on this Earth. Wasn’t the promise to have the thief with Him a promise of salvation?

    Lee wrote:
    and if so were they baptised there?

    Baptism is a command under the new covenant, not the old. How could they be expected to do something that wasn’t required until Jesus and His apostles taught it?

    Randy wrote:
    Here we go again with our “obeying the gospel” formula. Katherine and each one here has done each step of our so-called formula – believed, repented, confessed and was immersed, but we end up back at the cross roads again with “for the remission of sins” as if one must understand this perfectly before God will honor His word ( Mark 16:16 ) and other places.

    Randy, can you tell me what is so difficult to understand about baptism? If a person was never taught that salvation comes before baptism how could they confuse passages like Mark 16:16 or Acts 2:38? Are you saying that because the “gift of the Holy Spirit” is not always easily and fully understood that likewise baptism cannot be easily and fully understood?

  69. We demand that one must understand part of Acts 2:38 before God can act, then logic follows that the rest of the verse must also be understood to make baptism valid or make God act. If we are to make up rules, then lets at least be consistent. Why would someone even get baptized if they didn’t have faith in Christ and His work? They wouldn’t—some rejected Johns Baptism, but that’s a far cry from a person who has repented and then follows the command of Christ and get baptized. The lawyers and Pharisees rejected the counsel of God because they were not sincere and were not wanting to repent evidenced by their refusal to be baptized…there are people today who are sincere and wanting to repent…evidenced by them being baptized. Can you honestly say they are rejecting the counsel of God because they lacked some supposed knowledge or understanding that you and I think we have?

  70. I think it all boils down to this: We need to allow God be God. We teach what we know and try to follow the Bible as faithfully as we know how-from our knowledge of the truth found in the Bible. We continue to grow and learn in that knowledge-sharing Christ and His message of love to others…in the meantime, we let God be God. God saves. He fulfills His promises. That has never been based on OUR human understanding-but who God is and what He has promised.

  71. Katherine wrote:
    We continue to grow and learn in that knowledge-sharing Christ and His message of love to others

    Exactly. We are never to be content. We should want to know God’s will to the best of our ability. This may mean that at some point we learn that something we’ve done was wrong or that we’re teaching some error, even if we’re sincere.

    Randy wrote:
    Can you honestly say they are rejecting the counsel of God because they lacked some supposed knowledge or understanding that you and I think we have?

    My response ties into what I said about Katherine’s comments; what happens when you’re given a greater understanding? If your attitude is, “whatever. God will accept me” isn’t that rejecting the counsel of God? Why does everyone seem so opposed to making changes once we see that we’ve not followed the commands of God the way He has asked?

    Forget about those who are trying to do their best but never are taught a full understanding for a second. What about those who are taught, but reject it? Again I ask – what about baptism is hard to understand?

  72. Corey, I am on the same page with you, I agree with what you stated….but the last part. It seems pretty clear everyone doesnt understand baptism as you and I seeing they dont agree with us……so its notb easy for everyone to understand and I cant hold that against them, can you ?

  73. Corey I have read your points many times and I fully agree. If we read something that plainly leads us to understand that we have been in error, we’d be messing up to not try and resolve that error.

    The problem is that I read the verses that you and others give in support for your POV and I don’t see the same thing. I read the verses that you point out claiming the necessity to be baptized for remission of sins but I also read the verses that speak of salvation through Christ alone. So it would lead me to be quite sure that I’m not in error.

    There is nothing about baptism that is hard to understand… that’s what I would say in answer to your question. But sometimes the message that you and others teach/preach would lead me to believe that the message of salvation must be a pretty complicated message for you guys, otherwise every argument wouldn’t end up right back in this same place. Salvation is not that difficult, I believe God designed it to be a simple thing to understand that more might come to know Him. Over-complicating the message is just as full of error as you feel that those who will not bend to your POV are in error (though I strongly believe we are not).

    It’s interesting that on this board I can quote scripture to point out the foundations for my beliefs but my voice means nothing until I concede that the interpreation of the CofC when it comes to baptism is the end all be all. I just feel that if we take all of scripture in context and read things together we will find that the message of salvation is much simpler than some 5 step program. Anyone, anywhere can bend scripture to suit their needs (geez, even Satan did it to Jesus in the wilderness)… but the key isn’t pulling out verses here and there but looking at them altogether. And I stand firm and unwavered that when you put the verses that you guys quote methodically on baptism next to verses that I also speak of grace and faith, etc… that the whole message is quite simple… salvation is found in Christ alone.

  74. “Why does everyone seem so opposed to making changes once we see that we’ve not followed the commands of God the way He has asked?”

    I am not opposed to this at all, in fact I completely agree with that. That is why I believe all I believe because of what God says in the Bible-even when that does not line up with “traditional church of Christ beliefs”. I will always line up my beliefs with what the Word of God tells me, not just because “we have always believed it that way”. Much of what I now believe does not line up with many of those in my heritage, but I will always stick with what I believe the Bible saying-no matter who agrees with me or not. I pray we will always look to the Bible and not to traditions or doctrines of men.

    “What about those who are taught, but reject it? Again I ask – what about baptism is hard to understand?”

    I still think you are missing the point (at least of what I have tried to say)-it is one thing for someone who has been taught and chooses to reject what God says and those who do not understand it all (which in reality is all of us-we will never understand everything, but like I said-we try). Baptism is not hard to understand-but like I said before-God is God and He is the one who has promised to save-NOT because of what WE understand but because of His action. If one chooses to reject God’s invitation-that is a different issue. But, God is faithful to those who are faithful to Him-even when we lack in knowledge-which we will. That is why God is full of grace and mercy. We continue to search and grow, and He saves and blesses.

  75. Katie said:

    “Salvation is not that difficult, I believe God designed it to be a simple thing to understand that more might come to know Him…

    And I stand firm and unwavered that when you put the verses that you guys quote methodically on baptism next to verses that I also speak of grace and faith, etc… that the whole message is quite simple… salvation is found in Christ alone.”

    Amen, sister!! 🙂

  76. Katie,

    What you said brings out an important point – that salvation is in Christ alone. You seem to think that I believe otherwise – I do not. As I have pointed out before, you have to explain what “Christ alone” means. You would tell someone that to have that salvation they would need to hear God’s word, believe it, repent of sins and confess Jesus as Lord. All of those things you get from the word of God. In fact, you have to go to various passages to give someone those requirements. There is no single verse you can point to that explicitly states all of those things, but you know them to be true. All I’ve ever tried to say is that baptism also fits into those requirements before salvation. All of those things bring us “unto” salvation – meaning “near” salvation. Christ alone brings us “into” salvation. Insisting upon all of God’s requirements does not make the plan of salvation difficult.

    What I see with so many people here is that they want to point to one verse (even if it doesn’t mention something like repentance as your father did) and try to make it the be-all end-all verse. We can’t do that. We have to accept all of the verses that speak about salvation. If some of those verses mention salvation after baptism, then I accept those verses. That is not asking someone to relent to “church of Christ doctrine”, that is asking them to accept all the Bible says. Nothing more.

    Look at a verse like Acts 2:38 which says “repent and be baptized, every one of you for the remission of sins…”. I say that verse means just what it says. You say it means something else. Now, which one of us is “bending” the scriptures?

    Again I’ll say – all of the verses you point to that speak of faith and grace connecting us to salvation I believe. All of the verses that connect baptism to salvation you seem not to believe.

  77. excuse me for saying but the scripture says that he had power on earth to forgive sin not the same thing as being born again. if he could do that then his death was a complete and utter waste. there has to be a sinless sacrifice before redemption can take place. please dont interject statements like he had authority to save on earth,and dismiss the intricate plan that was laid from the foundation of the world.
    if satan had known this plan he would NEVER have allowed the crucification. there had to be blood shed before any one could be born again.
    there is no way around it. so you are wrong in my opinion to tell anyone that god can do as he pleases.while it is in his power it is not in his character. and paradise is not the same place as heaven just ask abraham and lazerus. and no that wasnt just a story.
    lee

  78. Lee,

    You pointed out something very important – that Paradise is not the same as Heaven. However, we must conclude that Lazerus was in paradise and the rich man in hades. If you’re in paradise it appears that you will eventually reach Heaven. No, it wasn’t just a story. Do we agree that those in paradise will eventually reach Heaven and those in Hades will eventually go to Hell? I think we’re actually in agreement, but I’m not sure.

    You said that there would be no redemption until there was a perfect sacrifice. We totally agree. But just like the Jews who kept the law, without forgiveness of sins until the perfect sacrifice came, Jesus could forgive the thief’s sins until His sacrifice was complete. I’m sure we also agree that blood had to be shed before anyone could be born again. No one could be born “of water and of the Spirit” until Jesus had died, been resurrected, and ascended again to the Father. That agrees perfectly with Acts 2: 38, “Repent and be baptized (born of the water) every one of you for the remission of sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (born of the Spirit)”.

    I would disagree that Satan could have somehow prevented the crucifixion. That was in God’s plan all along and was going to happen. I see nothing in scripture to tell me that Satan could have stopped it. He could have tried, but he would have failed. Like we agreed upon earlier “there is nothing new with God”.

  79. Corey you are missing what I am saying. I DO believe those verses. I believe in the whole Bible. I read the whole Bible when looking for my direction in life. And when I read the verses that you point out that speak of baptism, I am not reading them the same way that you are. I do not believe that scripture contradicts itself and so I cannot read those verses the way you do because in so doing I feel that your intepretation contradicts the other verses. I don’t know if that makes sense.

    When I read Acts 2:38— I read it in accordance with all the other scriptures, not singling out just that verse.

  80. How do you read that verse? Actually, I guess I know how you read it. My question then would be what other verse(s) do you see that would somehow make the baptism in Acts 2:38 something that was done after salvation?

  81. Question 1. Corey: Why did the Pharisees and Lawyers refuse to be baptized of John?
    Question 2. Corey: How did refusal equate to rejecting the counsel of God?
    Question 3. Corey: Did they lack faith?
    Question 4.Corey: Did they repent?

    When a person today turns to Christ in faith and repents, confesses, and get baptized are they rejecting the counsel of God if they fail to understand baptism as you and I?

  82. oh goodness…
    well let’s see
    I read romans 10:9-10; which talks about confessing and believing and actually makes no mention of baptism

    or even John 14:6 where Jesus Himself says the only way to the Father was through Him and He makes no mention of being baptized then either

    and then in the first part of Acts when Jesus is speaking with the apostles and says to them that though John baptized with water, they would be baptized with the Holy Spirit… referring not to a literal immersion in water but the gift of the Holy Spirit.

    and that’s just the tip of iceberg. I believe that Nathan recently posted many many verses all of which are emphasizing grace by faith, belief in Jesus Christ, etc

  83. Randy,

    You keep going back to the people who are never taught fully about baptism. That isn’t who I’m talking about. I’m talking about the people who do hear it and refuse because it doesn’t fall in line with what they already believed to be true. You seem to want to lump both groups together and I’m not willing to do that.

    Katie –

    Romans 10: 9-10 doesn’t mention confession either. I know you teach that must be done prior to salvation. This verse teaches us some of what we must do, not the sum of what we must do.

    John 14:6 makes no mention of confession or repentance. Again, you teach both of those must be done prior to salvation.

    Acts 1:7 is a promise specifically to the apostles. It was fulfilled in Acts 2:1-21. If you’re teaching that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is for Christians today you’re one of the few Baptists that do. That verse also doesn’t mention repentance.

    On and on we can go. You can continue to give me verses that show some of the things we must do, but eventually you must acknowledge that you must go to other verses that teach us the other things we must do.

  84. Edit – I mean that Romans 10:9-10 doesn’t mention repentance, not confession which is clearly mentioned.

  85. I understand what you are saying
    and you are proving my point that all the verses must be read together and none be taken out of context

    If I had time to post every verse there is about salvation I would but I obviously do not have that kind of time, those three verses were a quick sampling but were in no way meant to be comprehensive

  86. I agree that all verses must be read together and not taken out of context. I’m just not certain what your context is.

    If one verse says we’re saved by grace and another says we’re saved by Christ, then they’re both true. Christ provides the saving grace. To me, that seems to be an easy reconciliation.

    If some verses say we must hear, some say we must believe, others say we must confess, many say to repent and yet others say we must be baptized – all of these things prior to salvation – then they’re all true. Again, that seems easy to reconcile.

    Now, when I was a Baptist that wasn’t easy to reconcile. Why? Because I had already been taught that salvation is prior to baptism. What I considered at the time as “keeping in context” was to make the Bible read as I had already believed. The verses about baptism coming prior to salvation were being taken “out of context”. Out of the Biblical context? No. Out of the Baptist view of the Biblical context. Yes. If it didn’t, then I was wrong and needed to make a change. I didn’t like that.

    All of the scriptures that teach us about what we must do in order for God to save us are harmonious – even those that insist upon baptism.

  87. Would you agree with the following statement?
    “When you consider the Bible as a whole two conclusions can be made: One, that God considers the outward actions of man to be of great importance and two, God considers the inward motive of the heart to be of greater importance than action. Therefore motive holds greater weight in the eyes of God than actions.”

  88. From Corey: You keep going back to the people who are never taught fully about baptism. That isn’t who I’m talking about. I’m talking about the people who do hear it and refuse because it doesn’t fall in line with what they already believed to be true. You seem to want to lump both groups together and I’m not willing to do that.

    From Randy: Thats my point Corey – what about the people who wasnt taught and the ones who dont understand as you and I? Will they be saved, even though they were baptized or must they understand as you and I before God can act upon their faith?

  89. From Corey: You can continue to give me verses that show some of the things we must do, but eventually you must acknowledge that you must go to other verses that teach us the other things we must do.

    I agree with Corey – we must take the bible as a whole, not just a verse here and there. We cant take part of it and make that all we must do…we seem to think having to do something means we merit or earn salvation and thats why some are having a problem seeing baptism as an act of faith…

  90. while I appreciate your pov I must interject that though I attend a baptist church, my life is not ruled by the baptist church.
    my foundational beliefs are from my own reading and understanding of scripture. I am a very open minded person and am not discrediting your opinion simply because it contradicts some baptist doctrine. I feel that it contradicts the whole of scripture.

    I just want to throw that out there. It aggravates me when someone feels that because I attend a baptist church that my whole life is wrapped up in that particular church… which isn’t the case. My whole life is wrapped up in belief in Jesus Christ and my desire to please and honor Him with my life.

  91. I concur with Katie’s comments about being baptist. I might add to give you further understanding of my experiences that although I have been in the Baptist church for the vast majority of my Christian journey I have also ministered in, to and with Methodist and Presbyterian congregations.

  92. From Rick: When you consider the Bible as a whole two conclusions can be made: One, that God considers the outward actions of man to be of great importance and two, God considers the inward motive of the heart to be of greater importance than action. Therefore motive holds greater weight in the eyes of God than actions

    From Randy: I can tell you now that they have already heard this before too. They may ask what about the inward hearts of JW’s and Mormans? I was friends with a JW years ago and his heart was dead set for God and he honestly desired God, but his actions were bent toward the JW doctrine – will he be saved? There is much more they could say here too.

    Mormans are baptized just like the church of Christ people “for the forgiveness of sins” so are some Apostolics and the Chistian Church…seems like they would be saved seeing they follow the church of Christ 5 step formula….I ask James this before and never got a good answer…he just said you cant be baptized right in a wrong church…so… I ask the question another way, I ask “what if I told someone how to be saved and baptized them into Christ for the remission of sins, but then they attended a baptist church, would they be saved”? The answer I got was they wouldnt be baptized right and attend a denominational church.

  93. And though I have spent the majority of my Christian journey in a Baptist congregation, I also have served at a non-denominational church and been a part of para-church organizations which claimed no denominational affiliation.

  94. Very well put, Katie. I feel the same way about my heritage and membership in the church of Christ (as I have mentioned before). My life, hope, and salvation are firmly placed in Jesus Christ, and I am so thankful for that! 🙂

  95. trust me guys, I can relate strongly with you, I hold views that are not church of Christ doctrine – I believe in Eternal Security, and other teachings that are not from within the church of Christ. I dont count you guys as lost or unsaved as would Johnny. If Johnny is honest he too belongs to a denomination…no matter how he tried to make people think he isnt – he is.

  96. I know, Randy. That is the ironic part-what Johnny and friends are doing is creating worse of a denomination than what he condemns and fights against-without even realizing it and completely denying it. But, if he were to be honest and admit that-it would crush his entire agenda, and then he might actually have to focus on Jesus. Oh, how great that would be!

  97. “I have obeyed the gospel, I’m sure the same way you have. I heard, believed, repented, confessed and was immersed for the remission of sins. Isn’t that what you did?”

    Where did you do this? What church? Baptist, methodist, presbyterian?

  98. Katherine said: “and then he might actually have to focus on Jesus”

    Oh man… that made me LOL… how revolutionary of an idea that would be… a preacher that is focusing on Christ… who would have thought?? LOL

    Seriously though, you guys are both right (Katherine and Randy), it’s all about human agendas at this point and being the person that is “right”. I’m not trying to be “right”, because I’ve already had that righteousness given to me. Thank you Jesus!

  99. Faithful said:

    “I have obeyed the gospel, I’m sure the same way you have. I heard, believed, repented, confessed and was immersed for the remission of sins. Isn’t that what you did?”

    Where did you do this? What church? Baptist, methodist, presbyterian?

    …see, faithful-you have ENTIRELY missed the point AGAIN…it is Christ who saves. It doesn’t matter if any of this is done in a building, a lake, a pool, a backyard, a bathtub, a pond…it is Jesus who does the saving-not what we do, but what He does. It is what is in our heart that God sees-not what “church” you are in or wherever you are at the moment. It is the fact that you have submitted to the will of God.

    You cannot boil down salvation or following Jesus to a church or denomination. We are ONLY saved by the blood of Christ and His work on the cross. We need to rejoice with those He has added to our family, not give them the third degree about if it was valid or not!! WE are His church-we are His people, and all of the credit goes to Jesus Christ and His amazing grace!! 🙂

  100. faithful wrote:
    Where did you do this? What church? Baptist, methodist, presbyterian?

    Mars Hill church of Christ. Still searching for my false doctrine or sinful and rebellious behavior? You’re not going to find it. I believe and teach the same things you do. You can apologize any time you’re ready or you can continue to look for something that isn’t there.

  101. “Actually, I shouldn’t ask that. He and Diotrephes seem to be close brethren.”

    3Jo 1:9 ¶ I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not.
    (KJV)

    It seems that you want to support the denominationalism of the church Cory. Am I misunderstanding you? You don’t seem to support the mentioning of names , baptist etc?

  102. Cory said” I believe and teach the same things you do.”

    If your saying things like this”He and Diotrephes seem to be close brethren.”

    Then we are not teaching the same thing

  103. “It is what is in our heart that God sees-not what “church” you are in or wherever you are at the moment. ”

    Katherine It makes a huge differeance. None of the churches I mention baptize for the remission of sins

  104. That doesn’t make their baptism less valid. You are still COMPLETELY missing the point-that GOD is the one who saves!!!!!! It is NOT based on our understanding-but His sacrifice and shed blood on the cross. Why would anyone want to take the focus off that?

  105. ” On May 20, 2008 at 4:29 pm Rick Said:
    I concur with Katie’s comments about being baptist. I might add to give you further understanding of my experiences that although I have been in the Baptist church for the vast majority of my Christian journey I have also ministered in, to and with Methodist and Presbyterian congregations.

    ” On May 20, 2008 at 7:27 pm Rick Said:
    Not to blow your mind (well maybe), but I was baptized into the Church of Christ!”

    So Rick what church are you with now?

  106. Rick (aka, my dad) is in the Church of Christ… as am I… and every other person who has received Christ.

    You see just because we don’t attend the denomination of the Church of Christ doesn’t mean that we aren’t part of the body. He’s refering to THE Body of Christ, ie.. the Body of Believers.

  107. “I wrote to the church, but Diotrephes, who loves to be first, will have nothing to do with us. So if I come, I will call attention to what he is doing, gossiping maliciously about us. Not satisfied with that, he refuses to welcome the brothers. He also stops those who want to do so and puts them out of the church.” ~3 John 1:9-10

    Wow, this does sound just like Johnny and his friends.

  108. Exactly, Katie-that is where I think many people have gotten very confused (not only those in the cofC)-there is a huge difference between the institutional or physical church of Christ, and the spiritual CHURCH of Christ-which is His body. There are some who simply do not understand and then there are some who simply do not WANT to understand or choose to turn a blind eye-and that is the problem. Like I said, it would change many of their agendas-and they would actually have to allow some of us as their brothers and sisters.

  109. I have been having this conversation all over the place lately. What has happened in our world is that Christianity is all about the religion and nothing about Christ and the relationship that one is able to have with Him. I honestly think that Christ Himself is appalled at all the rules, regulations, and ritualistic religions that we have created in His name when all He wants is our hearts and for us to fellowship with Him, to commune with Him, to honor Him. We spend more time honoring our own words and our own works than we do His sacrifice and the joy and love that He gives when we really devote our lives to Him. It’s a shame.

  110. AMEN, Katie!! I couldn’t have said it any better. It does make me sad (and sometimes angry) when religion has taken over the idea of a relationship with Christ and when His incredible gifts of love, grace, and mercy get pushed out the door and it becomes about us. It has never been about us-but what He has done and continues to do in us when we surrender our lives to Him and His will.

    He has made it so easy to come to Him, and our human tendencies and minds try to make it hard, when He just asks us to “Come”. He never made His commands burdensome-it is only something we have done.

    I mean if we REALLY think about it-that God sent His one and only Son for our sins-out of His incredible love and when we do not deserve it-why is so hard to not humbly focus on Him and not on ourselves? It is such an incredible blessing and an amazingly humble thing to truly submit to and revel in His amazing love and grace-which we then pour out onto others. 🙂

  111. From Katherine: “I wrote to the church, but Diotrephes, who loves to be first, will have nothing to do with us. So if I come, I will call attention to what he is doing, gossiping maliciously about us. Not satisfied with that, he refuses to welcome the brothers. He also stops those who want to do so and puts them out of the church.” ~3 John 1:9-10

    Wow, this does sound just like Johnny and his friends.

    From Randy: I couldnt help but laugh at this – I was shocked that “faithful” even made mention of this verse, seeing it does apply to the very attitude they are presenting…

  112. “On May 20, 2008 at 10:18 pm Katie Said:
    Rick (aka, my dad) is in the Church of Christ… as am I… and every other person who has received Christ.

    You see just because we don’t attend the denomination of the Church of Christ doesn’t mean that we aren’t part of the body. He’s refering to THE Body of Christ, ie.. the Body of Believers.”

    Well how did you “recieve Christ” ? I have to ask because I don’t read about “recieving Christ”.
    I can however read about “obeying”. So when the Jehovah witness or the Mormons “recieve ” Christ are they saved?

    Mt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

  113. Katherine the reason I meantioned it was because Cory had brought it up in another thread

  114. I would be interested to know if Cory has ever met Johnny. Can a person know a person from just seeing a few clips of video?

  115. Rick it seems as though you may be ashamed to say where you were baptized. Seems like a generic answer

  116. faithful – no, I’ve never met Johnny. Have you met Randy? You’ve thrown out a lot of personal stuff about him although it appears you’ve never spoken to him in person. Doesn’t this go both ways?

    I know that Johnny has come to this site and bragged about all that he has done for the Lord in direct conflict with Matthew 6: 1-8. I’m glad he teaches truth and makes personal sacrifices for the Lord. He doesn’t need to come here and try to show everyone how pious he is.

    Johnny insinuated that Lee’s wife wasn’t faithful to him. Johnny could have denied that here, but he didn’t. He acknowledged what Lee said, but never refuted it. I wasn’t there, but if it is true, that is another instance of him acting in a way that isn’t Christ-like.

    Beyond all of that, I teach all the same things you do. You can’t throw out a doctrine taught within the churches of Christ that isn’t practiced at my congregation. All of the Biblical doctrines you teach, I also teach and preach every time I get an opportunity. If you went to my blog and looked at the links listed under “Religion” you would notice that they are all very conservative teachings (some even more so than what you probably teach). I believe just like people like Norm Fields and teach the same. I loathe denominationalism and false teachings.

    That said, there is still a right way and a wrong way to go about teaching. When the people in the Bible were sincere, yet sinful, Jesus treated them differently than those who were willfully sinning. In John 4 we read of Jesus and the woman at the well. She was very sinful, yet Jesus was kind to her. He still insisted that she leave her sinfulness, but He never called her names or insulted her. That is how I try to be here with those who are sincere, although in the wrong.

    There is an attitude expressed by some who come here (like Jo and Chuck) that seems to indicate that we have to follow and approve of everything that Mr. Robertson does. I would never suggest that he should cease teaching the truth. I would never suggest that he should compromise that truth and accept everyone claiming to be a brother or sister. I would suggest that the tone and demeanor we use when talking to those in the denominational world should be Christ-like and suited to the situation – rather than treating every sincere person like a willful false teacher.

  117. Well said, Corey.

    It’s really interesting to me that the one person here representing Johnny, Norm and James (what happened to “Jo” and “Chuck”?) has so quickly and ably alienated him (or her) self from the one regular commenter on this blog with whom he (or she) should be allied.

    And, as far as I can tell, it has been for no good reason.

    Is this the legacy of the three broadcasters? That they train people up to fight with everyone, including those who agree with their doctrine, if not their methodology?

    I’d be really interested in the BCV that supports that sort of behavior.

  118. It’s been a while since I’ve posted here due to various reasons.

    Can I ask Corey what congregation he is a member of?

    Joey

  119. Sure. I’m a member of the Mars Hill congregation in Bowling Green, Kentucky.

    Why do you ask?

  120. Just curious. I’ve been trying to catch up on the conversations since I’ve been away from the site for a while.

    I’ve been reading between you and faithful but I don’t think I’ve covered all of the posts between the two of you. Just trying to understand the disagreement.

    Joey

  121. Well, essentially we were both here saying the exact same things and all of a sudden on May 15, 2008 at 8:31 in the “Denominations and the Church of Christ” topic, faithful accused me of being “sinful and rebellious”. I’ve asked him so many times to explain it I’ve lost count of how many times it has been. Nathan has asked him to explain it. So have Randy and Katherine, but he won’t do it.

    So here I am, trying to refute denominational beliefs and now I’ve got someone who is supposed to be my brother slandering me and lying about me without any proof to back anything up.

    That is it in a nutshell.

  122. “all of a sudden on May 15, 2008 at 8:31 in the “Denominations and the Church of Christ” topic, faithful accused me of being “sinful and rebellious”. I’ve asked him so many times to explain it I’ve lost count of how many times it has been. Nathan has asked him to explain it. So have Randy and Katherine, but he won’t do it.”

    I have not caught up on the entire conversation yet, but my guess is that you disagreed with him on some minuscule and debatable interpretation of scripture. In his mind the Lord’s Church equals the American Restoration Movement Church of Christ; the Church of Christ equals whatever his particular Church of Christ does. Even if you belong to a Church of Christ, you are outside the body, apostate, or liberal if you disagree with him (therby disagreeing with God). He feels no need to address this issue because you are simply misguided or ignoring the truth.

    Its pretty mindboggling.

  123. I hope I don’t sound like a dummy but I would love to talk to the person who created this video. It makes a lot of sence and I am struggling with a few things right now that I think he could help me with. I have tried to figure out who it is to no avail. If you can help, thanks!!

  124. His name is David Jigour, and you can find his youtube contact info at this link:

    http://www.youtube.com/user/david1s167

    I would make a comment on his youtube page there, and he’ll probably get back to you.

    edit: I just looked a little closer at that youtube page, and found this link, too:

    http://www.geocities.com/thesufficiencyoffaith

    and this email addy: thesufficiencyoffaith@yahoo.com

    Meanwhile, welcome to our blog! I hope you’ll stop by often, and comment when something strikes your fancy.

  125. Thank you! I will take a look. May comment more later. Gotta get some things straight in my mind. 🙂

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s