Denominations and the “churches of Christ”

If you are in a denomination, you are out of luck.

People in hyperconservative churches of Christ say that denominations are not in the Bible, and you can’t be saved in a church that is not in the Bible.

But here’s the problem… the only churches that are in the Bible are churches that existed in the Middle East 2000 years ago.  

Martinsville Church of Christ, Danville Church of Christ, Reidsville Church of Christ… none of these churches existed during the NT times, because none of these communities existed 2000 years ago.

Practicing Faith like the 1st Century Church

“But we’re talking about churches that follow the teachings exactly as the church of 2000 years ago did,” the hyper-conservatives might say. “We do this, and no one else does.”

Let’s look at some of the commands from Scripture. Some are direct commands, others are found using the CofC principle of CENI – such as the non-written but inferred “command” that everyone must take the Lord’s Supper each “first day of the week” or be in sin.

1. Let the woman cut her hair if her head is uncovered. (1 Cor 11:6)

2. Let the woman wear a covering if cutting and shaving the hair be a shame. (1 Cor 11:6)

3. Let the speaker in tongues pray for the interpretation. (1 Cor. 14:13)

4. Let no more than 3 messages in tongues be given in one service. (1 Cor. 14:27)

5. Forbid not tongues (1 Cor. 14:39).

6. Destroy none with non-essentials (Romans 14:15; 1 Cor. 8:13).

7. Have faith before God for things not condemned in Scripture (Romans 14:22-23).

8. “All that believed were together, and had all things in common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.” (Acts 2:44-45)

And finally, an oft-mentioned but not any less accurate for it’s inclusion example…

9. Greet one another with a holy kiss. (Romans 16.16, I Corinthians 16.20, II Corinthians 13.12, I Thessalonians 5.26, I Peter 5.14) 

Do the “churches of Christ” mentioned earlier obey all of these commands?  

Why do I bring this up? I’m not using this to say that the hyperconservative churches of Christ are not truly following Christ. That’s not my call.  I’m bringing this up to demonstrate that they are not acting just like the NT church.

Of course using Scripture as the model for church is the best idea.   

You should understand something about where I’m coming from on this issue.  I am a big proponent of churches being as much like the early church as possible, I have been for a while now.  Regular readers here know that I am a Christian with a Presbyterian background, but I haven’t attended a Presbyterian church regularly for years.  For the past five years I have been attending a house church, and I love feeling that kinship with my first century brothers and sisters. 

But I don’t find any evidence in Scripture that this is a litmus test that God uses through the ages to save people. We are not saved because of the name or the size of the church we attend – we are saved because of the grace and mercy of God the Father found in the work of Jesus Christ on the cross, and our response to that work, leading to the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Ephesians 2:8-9, Galatians 3:2)  It’s HIS work, not ours.

What about the others?

But what about the others who are trying to do the same thing as our friends in the “churches of Christ”?  Are they up the creek without a paddle?

Remember Rick’s affirmations from a few days ago? It seems like the church he attends is trying very hard to follow the same road taken by believers in the early church. Here are a couple of other churches that I found with a cursory internet search that seem to be attempting to do the same thing, but don’t seem to be claiming to be the only ones who are saved:

New Frontiers family of churches

New Testament Church website

Would our hypercon friends consider the people in these churches to be saved?  If so, why?  If not, why not?

Who does the saving?  (whew!)

This is one of those situations (and there are many) where I am so relieved and grateful that the decision of who is saved and who is not saved does not rest on the shoulders of our hyper-conservative friends, or any other people from any other doctrinal background.  

Thankfully, the salvation issue decisions rests on the shoulders of our just and merciful God.  (Exodus 34:6–7, Rom. 3:23-25)

And all God’s people said…

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597 thoughts on “Denominations and the “churches of Christ”

  1. AMEN!!! AMEN!!! AMEN!!! 🙂 Especially this…

    “But I don’t find any evidence in Scripture that this is a litmus test that God uses through the ages to save people. We are not saved because of the name or the size of the church we attend – we are saved because of the grace and mercy of God the Father found in the work of Jesus Christ on the cross, and our response to that work, leading to the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Ephesians 2:8-9, Galatians 3:2) It’s HIS work, not ours.”

    It really is interesting to me-yet ironically sad, that those who think they have it all right and fight against denominations have in actuality become a worse denomination than those they speak out against…yet cannot see it because they have been blinded by their own denominational biases, but claim it as “the only truth”. They are actually pushing the plea of Christ for unity away and dividing even more than those they are condemning.

    It seems to me they have missed the entire meaning of the church, i.e. the body of Christ-and have twisted it into a man-made institution. It cannot be limited to that-it cannot be limited to a building or a sign, because it is made up of the PEOPLE of God. Like you said, I am incredible thankful it is up to our God to save us, and not up to humans-I wish more people would leave it up to Him, and just spread the love of Christ to people!! 🙂

  2. I agree in many areas…churches of Christ certainly have split and denominated in the very sense that we denounce. I wish it were not so, and do my best as a preacher to help where I can.

    But, I was hoping we could discuss this idea:
    “we are saved because of the grace and mercy of God the Father found in the work of Jesus Christ on the cross, and our response to that work, leading to the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Ephesians 2:8-9, Galatians 3:2) It’s HIS work, not ours.”
    I agree with this…although after saying that we are saved by grace and our response to that work it seems a little contradictory to say that it is HIS work, not ours…which seems to imply that we do nothing. But, perhaps you are only saying what I believe: we cannot earn our salvation, but we are still required to do some things to be saved.

    So, I also wanted some other views of a passage that relates to this whole issue, Revelation 2:4-5…
    “But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.”

    I have my ideas, but would like some other views…
    What is going on here? What works are they supposed to be doing, and how do we know? Is this saying that God will not recognize this church as a part of the body if they don’t repent? Does that mean that an entire congregation might be lost if the way things are done does not change?

  3. As always CT, you make some very good points and bring up some food for thought. First, we asume Jesus meant that they would lose their salvation when he said he would remove thier candlestick. I’m not so sure salvation is the issue, but I dont rule it out either. It does seem this “assmebly” of Christians were doing things not pleasing to God and needed to repent, or risk having their candlestick removed. Below is a few places about candlesticks – there are more.

    “..I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of Gold…and his seven lamps thereon…” Zechariah 4:2

    And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man . . . (Rev 1:13)

    These candlesticks were not just seven isolated singular candles as one might suppose at first glance, but they are seven (Jewish) Menorahs – God’s idea of a lampstand. Immediately we are informed that the candlesticks represented the Judeo-Christian churches of Asia:

    The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. (Rev. 1:20).

    This declaration therefore, by association, makes the candlestick a Judeo-Christian symbol and representative of a New Testament Church

    The lampstand (Menorah) is conceivably the most comprehensive of all Biblical symbols. As such, it is important that believers investigate the origin, use and purpose of this symbol referenced in both Old and New Testaments. We will discover that this lampstand symbolizes many things such as the Nation of Israel, the Church, the Holy Spirit, the Word of God, the Seven Spirits of God, even the Lord Jesus Christ himself as “the light of the world.”

    The first direct mention and detailed description of the candlestick (Menorah) is found in Exodus 25:31-40. Moses had just returned from Mount Sinai where he had been in communion with God. It was there that he had been instructed to make the candlestick. Not only had he received detailed instructions concerning the critical design of this instrument of light to be placed in the Tabernacle, but also of the various other implements that would be used for service in God’s divine worship system.

    Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a CANDLESTICK; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. ( Mt. 5:14-17)

    CT, you sure invite a a good study. I always love your commnets – there is so much that could be said on this subject and many would grow tired reading it all, so I suggest that anyone willing to look at this in depth, search the bible for “lamp of God, Candlestick, Light, Menorah’s…thi is really a great study and too much to put here.

    churchesofChrist.wordpress.com
    Randy Craiger

  4. A Condemning Doctrine on Baptism

    The attempts to debunk the Gospel of Christ as heresy apart from Christ are numerous. Though great in number, such rebuttals to the Gospel cannot stand to the simple affirmation of the power of God unto salvation, which is the Gospel in Romans 1:16. One such false teaching and rebuttal of the Gospel is against baptism in the name of Jesus Christ. Take for example the position of Kirk Cameron with his mentor Ray Comfort in their affirmation that baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is not “unto” and to receive the forgiveness of sins, but it is to be done “because of” the forgiveness of sins. After perusing through one of Cameron and Comfort’s books at a bookstore, I found one of the most damning false doctrines known to anyone. I was surprised since I’d already read the affirmation of Cameron and Comfort for the necessity of water baptism and its necessity “for the remission of sins” on their website livingwaters.com. The book presented clearly in one chapter the damning doctrine that Acts 2:38 teaches baptism in the name of Jesus Christ “for the remission of sins” means “because of the remission of sins” rather than “to receive the forgiveness of sins” or in an even better translation “unto forgiveness of sins”. I recently came across the blog, “Baptist College Student”, affirming that “Belief alone results in everlasting life” in which the writer is twisted regarding James 2:24, “You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone“. Still, many people claim that one is saved and justified by faith alone. With all of this said, there are some essential things that everyone should know about baptism and Acts 2:38.

    Look at the phrase in Acts 2:38, “for the forgiveness of sins”. The issue has to do with the definition of the word “for” from the Greek word “eis” meaning “unto”, which some say with no good reasoning should be translated “because of” rather than “unto”. The exact phrase in Greek, “for forgiveness of sins”, is found 3 other times in the Scriptures. Mark 1:4 and Luke 3:3 present that John the Baptist’s baptism was “of repentance for forgiveness of sins”. This does not resolve the issue, but the same interpretation for Acts 2:38’s baptism in Jesus’ name would most likely be the same for John’s baptism of repentance. Both would be for the forgiveness of sins in the same way. Now, the only other passage with this exact phrase is Matthew 26:28. In the context of the Lord’s Supper, Christ stated, “for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.” Christians are justified and washed clean by Jesus’ blood according to Acts 20:28; Romans 3:25, 5:9; Ephesians 1:7, 2:13; Colossians 1:20, Hebrews 9, 13:12; 1 John 1:7, and Revelation 1:5, 7:14. This verse resolves this whole controversy. Jesus’ blood was poured out not “because of” forgiveness of sins, but His blood was poured out “unto” forgiveness of sins.

    In fact, there are 1695 occurrences of “eis” in the New Testament not one means “because of”. On top of this, there are some other uses of “eis” around Acts 2:38 that show that the word means “unto”. Go through the following list and see the definition of the word, and try to fill in “because of” and see that it will not work. Here is a list of occurrences of the word around Acts 2:38 from Acts 1-3:

    *Acts 1:10, “And while they were looking steadfastly unto heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;”
    *Acts 1:11, “who also said, You men of Galilee, why are you stand looking into heaven? this Jesus, who was received up from you unto heaven shall so come in like manner as you beheld him going unto heaven.”
    *Acts 1:12, “Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near unto Jerusalem, a Sabbath day’s journey off.”
    *Acts 1:13, “And when they were come in, they went up unto the upper room, where they were abiding; both Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James.”
    *Acts 1:25, “to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas fell away, that he might go unto his own place.”
    *Acts 2:20, “The sun shall be turned unto darkness, And the moon unto blood, Before the day of the Lord come, That great and notable day.”
    *Acts 2:22, “You men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God unto you by mighty works and wonders and signs which God did by him in the midst of you, even as you yourselves know;”
    *Acts 2:25, “For David said unto him, I beheld the Lord always before my face; For he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:”
    *Acts 2:27, “Because you will not leave my soul unto Hades, Neither will you give your Holy One to see corruption.”
    *Acts 2:31, “he foreseeing this spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that neither was He left unto Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.”
    *Acts 2:34, “For David ascended not unto the heavens: but he says himself, ‘The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit you on my right hand,’”
    *Acts 2:39, “For to you is the promise, and to your children, and to all that are unto afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call to him.”
    *Acts 3:1, “Now Peter and John were going up unto the temple at the hour of prayer, being the ninth hour.”
    *Acts 3:2, “And a certain man that was lame from his mother’s womb was carried, whom they laid daily at the door of the temple which is called Beautiful, to ask alms of them that entered unto the temple;”
    *Acts 3:3, “who seeing Peter and John about to go unto the temple, asked to receive an alms.”
    *Acts 3:4, “And Peter, fastening his eyes unto him, with John, said, ‘Look on us.’”
    *Acts 3:8, “And leaping up, he stood, and began to walk; and he entered with them unto the temple, walking, and leaping, and praising God.”

    Acts 2:38, “And Peter said to them, ‘Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit’” (ESV). The command is clearly for every one, and it is also clear that this baptism is “in the name of Jesus Christ”, which is not Holy Spirit baptism since Acts 8:14-16, says, “Now when the apostles that were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: (15) who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Spirit: (16) for as yet it was fallen upon none of them: only they had been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus“. Baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is water baptism according to Acts 10:47-48, “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people…And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ” (ESV). This is the baptism of the Great Commission in Matthew 28:19, “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,” for which Jesus said in Mark 16:16, “Whoever believes and is baptized shall be saved”. This baptism is essential being the “one baptism” of Ephesians 4:5, which is a “washing of water” in Ephesians 5:26 by which Christ sanctified and cleansed the Church. This washing is that of Titus 3:5 “He saved us…by the washing of regeneration…”. This regeneration, rebirth, is to be born again of water as in John 3:3 & 5, “Jesus answered him, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God’… Jesus answered, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God‘” (ESV). This is why the Apostle Paul was told to “Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord” in Acts 22:16. When is one saved? It is when one is humbled enough to accept the grace of Christ and not his own works, and obey Christ’s command to be baptized. Obedience is essential for salvation see that Hebrews 5:9 says, “And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him” and Jesus said in Matthew 7:21, “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.” (ESV).

    Now, what or who does the saving in baptism according to Titus 3:5 and Ephesians 5:26? It is not baptism that regenerates. It is Christ who saves and “not because of works done by us in righteousness” according to Titus 3:5, but “being justified by His grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life” in Titus 3:7. There has never been someone so stupid as to believe that water washes away sins or that being dunked in water alone saves someone. It is not “works-salvation” to be saved by Christ in baptism in His name. The one baptized does not even baptize oneself, so it is not one’s own working. The water is not special though water baptism in the Lord’s name is essential. Being regenerated by Christ by baptism in His name is not the effort of any person to save oneself by works as so many would like to attach to Christ’s baptism though baptism is a work. This does not deny or reject the truth that “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; salvation is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast” as presented in Ephesians 2:8-9.

  5. “It really is interesting to me-yet ironically sad, that those who think they have it all right and fight against denominations have in actuality become a worse denomination than those they speak out against…yet cannot see it because they have been blinded by their own denominational biases, but claim it as “the only truth”. They are actually pushing the plea of Christ for unity away and dividing even more than those they are condemning.”

    Was it sad when they did the same thing in the first century?

    1Ti 1:3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,
    (KJV)

  6. “They are actually pushing the plea of Christ for unity away and dividing even more than those they are condemning.”

    Yet I see you offering no alternative solution

  7. I have offered an easy and Biblical solution many times…to focus on the one who prayed for our unity: Jesus Christ, His love, amazing grace, and gift of salvation.

    What is being touted around here-which is to seek out and cause more division by chasing after and attacking people who believe differently but are still followers of Christ-runs the other way from what Jesus called us to do, and if you believe it is ANYthing that Christ has called us to or that you can actually justify it with anything found in the Bible-you have been incredibly misled and are mistaken.

    The focus has been taken off Christ and has been placed on an agenda, so the solution is to place the focus back onto the one who saves.

  8. Amen, Katherine. You just expressed very eloquently the hope that I had when I started this blog, even if it wasn’t in those words. To see these men come on the air each week saying that the only hope for unity is in their particular doctrinal positions was (and is) very disheartening to me.

    Unity is in Christ, not in the “church of Christ” as we see it in these men (Ephesians 1: 9-10). If this blog doesn’t do anything other than to get that message out there, it will have done quite a bit.

    Thanks, K.

  9. Amen Katherine!

    I recently heard from Lynn Anderson (of COC fame) that those who have Christ in common have more in common that what divides them. Taking a look at the first century there were classic denominations: Roman Gentiles, Jews, those mentored by Paul, others who weren’t. There was no New Testiment to follow, only stories passed down by desciples and other original followers of Christ. Even the three desciples and Luke tell different accounts of Christ’s life in the gospels. But was that bad? Were those independant churches divided? Traditionally, YES! Spirtually, in most cases, no. Many today turn it into a word game.

    I have been away for several weeks, but I really enjoyed reading your comments on “We are the Sermon” put on by Southern Hills COC and Pioneer Drive Baptist. I was married at Southern Hills and particapated in the first “We are the Sermon”. There were many fullfilling motives behind it, but one stated one was to show the world that Satan will not win by driving a wedge between followers of Christ in the name of the word denominalationism. In stead we can have our different traditions and come together to glorify the one awesome and powerful God.

  10. Amen to you, Dennis! 🙂

    We definitely have way more in common than what divides us-and it is vital we focus on it. If not, there will never be unity. That is why I get so frustrated with what these men and others are doing-driving that wedge even farther by claiming only “their way” is unity-when the ONLY way to unity is found in Jesus.

  11. “The focus has been taken off Christ and has been placed on an agenda, so the solution is to place the focus back onto the one who saves.”

    I see this site the one being guilty of that. When I read about Jesus I see him correcting error. Is it not hypocritiacal for those here on the site to do the same thing they say is wrong?

  12. “We definitely have way more in common than what divides us-and it is vital we focus on it. If not, there will never be unity. That is why I get so frustrated with what these men and others are doing-driving that wedge even farther by claiming only “their way” is unity-when the ONLY way to unity is found in Jesus.”

    So just because the denominational churches say the name Jesus it’s not important that they teach a different plan of salvation then the churches in the bible? We should focus on things that are the same and ignore the fact they teach a different plan?

  13. “I have offered an easy and Biblical solution many times…to focus on the one who prayed for our unity: Jesus Christ, His love, amazing grace, and gift of salvation.”

    And how has that worked out ?

  14. Why don’t you actually TRY it and tell me how it works out? 🙂

    After all, it is what Jesus prayed for. You are somehow completely missing that point.

  15. Let me put it this way faithful, Jo, Johnny, etc…

    You are coming at this backwards. You think your goal should be to “fight” the denominations for whatever reason and are only seeing everything you do not think they are doing “right” because you somehow believe you are the only ones who are “right”-so you are coming at it from that angle, and that is where you have gotten off track. If that is your measurement, then you will hardly ever accept anyone-and you are only pushing away brothers and sisters whom God has already accepted. Whether you accept them or not does not have any influence on whether God does-so what are you really trying to accomplish?

    Therefore, you have lost the main focus that we have in common-the fact that we are found and saved by the same God. You may not like that-but there is nothing you can do about it (thank goodness)-so why not recognize the UNITY found in Christ and go from there? That never means you have to compromise beliefs-it is only answering the prayer Jesus prayed before He died by uniting with His body. Which, that is part of the other problem-recognizing what and who the body of Christ really is-which can not be limited to AN institutional church, A denomination, or A building-it is made up of His people-those GOD has saved. Once you come to realize that-I doubt you will be coming at it backwards anymore and will be able to embrace your brothers and sisters. I pray for that day.

    I will say it again-what you are attempting to do is only running FAR AWAY from the plea and idea for unity. It is you who cannot-or refuses to-see that. Only God can be the one to open your eyes, and I pray He does.

  16. Amen again! How can we really call ourselves Christians if we in our own closed mindedness will not seek unity through Christ with all of our brothers and sisters. Christ is unity, he is our brother and because of Him we are joint heirs with him and can call God Abba Father (Daddy). Romans 8:14-17.

    When you say your way is the only right way, the only standard God will accept, you are embracing the very thing about denominalionism you say is wrong. You are seperating yourself from many children of God. Satan wins one. Another thing…it’s probably basphamous to decide for God who He will and will not accept. All through the bible we (generally speaking) are His and He wants a relationship with all of us. Shouldn’t we want the same relationship with all of His children?

  17. faithful,

    I have had a great deal of experience working shoulder to shoulder with men and women of different denominational backgrounds. Everything from Promise Keepers to multi-church community projects (like the one mentioned earlier). And would you like to know why we can fellowship together? Because we recognize exactly what Katherine and Dennis have been discussing here. That it’s not about the church building or tradition – it’s about Jesus.

    Now inevitably, when someone brings up something like this to a hypercon, they’ll take it to the extreme and mention the JWs or the Mormons. But this is an erroneous place to take the conversation. Why? The difference is that the JWs and the Mormon traditions have taken the Word and added to it. They are the ones actually doing the thing that you wrongly condemn the other historically orthodox Christian traditions for doing. This is a very serious issue, because of John’s warning at the end of the book of Revelations 22:18:

    “For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.”

    Most of the denominations I know have issues of different interpretations, but they are interpreting the same Scripture. But, we find unity in Christ.

    As has been said before, “unity” doesn’t mean “uniformity”.

  18. “When I read about Jesus I see him correcting error”

    ..and how is that working out for you? You believe in sola scriptura, you are fallible and sinful, how can you even remotely know that your interpretations are correct. How could you have SO much confidence that your opinions are correct enough to judge others. There is a reason why there so many denominations (yours included) claiming truth, yet hold opposite doctrines on important issues like the Lord’s Supper, baptism and the sacraments.

  19. JP does raise some points – he ask the very questions that Jason, my friend has ask me, who use to preach in the church of Christ ( doesnt go to church now ). I look forward to hearing this answered.

    Randy

  20. I wouldn’t say that there aren’t difficult passages in the scriptures. I would admit that some things are even impossible to understand as the ways of God are not the ways of man. However, when it comes to how we are to worship and live as Christians, I think it is arrogant to say that we can’t understand most of the Bible. When we say that things are simply a “matter of personal interpretation” what we’re really saying is that the Holy Spirit was unable to properly inspire the apostles of God when they wrote. If there is no “right” interpretation then Paul was a liar when he wrote:

    For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. 1 Corinthians 14:33

    To simply say what the Bible says is not interpretation. I truly believe that most of the confusion among those professing to be Christians could be avoided when we remove the teachings of men that have been held up as equal to the word of God.

  21. “..and how is that working out for you? You believe in sola scriptura, you are fallible and sinful, how can you even remotely know that your interpretations are correct. How could you have SO much confidence that your opinions are correct enough to judge others. There is a reason why there so many denominations (yours included) claiming truth, yet hold opposite doctrines on important issues like the Lord’s Supper, baptism and the sacraments.

    How am I sinful? I’ve been forgiven . I don’t continue to wallow in it . The bible says judge rightous judgement. That means judge by the bible. I know there is a reason they do what they do. The same reason people of the world do anything. “It feels good” . I see complaining about the method the Lords church goes about trying to bring the unity that Jesus prayed forbut I don’t see any one else really offering another solution. Chuck is right about the fact that you alls plan is simular to the atheist in that respect. If these preachers are in error then why don’t the denominational preachers or people from this site come straighten them out in front of the whole community? Would not real truth prevail? I thought the truth and the true gospel were powerful?

  22. Actually faithful, I think they are (in a way) offering a solution, but it isn’t a Biblical solution.

    What most people here seem to prefer is that everyone says, “you believe in Christ and so do I and that is all that really matters.” Then we would leave one another alone, worship in differing manners, believing different things, calling that “unity”. If you and I believe the Biblical teaching that baptism is for the remission of sins then we should meet with others who believe the same. If others believe that baptism is just something we should do after they’re already saved, then they can meet with others who believe the same. No one should ever claim to be right, and more importantly, no one should ever claim that anyone else could be wrong.

    I guess that is the essence of “unity in diversity”.

  23. “Now inevitably, when someone brings up something like this to a hypercon, they’ll take it to the extreme and mention the JWs or the Mormons. But this is an erroneous place to take the conversation. Why? The difference is that the JWs and the Mormon traditions have taken the Word and added to it. They are the ones actually doing the thing that you wrongly condemn the other historically orthodox Christian traditions for doing. This is a very serious issue, because of John’s warning at the end of the book of Revelations 22:18:

    “For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.”

    Most of the denominations I know have issues of different interpretations, but they are interpreting the same Scripture. But, we find unity in Christ.

    As has been said before, “unity” doesn’t mean “uniformity”.”

    Well let’s narrow it down then. The methodist have added sprinckling to the new testament . The presyterians have added sprinckling to children, the baptist have added born in sin and once saved always saved , the SDA have added a baptismal vow , . What’s the difference in them and the JW and mormon? None. Let’s not the forget the fact they all add instruments of music to the NT. Where do we draw the line. They have also taken away something. They took way the “not ” and made it faith only.

  24. I think you all missed JP’s point. Everyone of us disagre on things and all claim to understand things to such a degree that we can refute others ( myself included ) How do we really know who is right and who is wrong – seeing we all think we are right. I know you keep pointing back to God not being the author of confusion, but be honest enough to admit that we all lack perfection and we all lack the ability to understand the entire bible PERFECTLY the same. Maybe this alone should be reason enough to find true unity and not be so divided.

  25. Randy – how do we find unity when people teach so many different things? If the Bible alone can’t be our standard then what can be? My feelings? Your feelings?

    Look at the world of politics. Obama says he wants to unite Americans. No he doesn’t. He wants all Americans to change to his way of doing things. How can I, as a staunch opponent of abortion find unity with a man who supports the heinous process in virtually every circumstance? I cannot.

    The same is true in religion. When we say we want unity, what most of us mean is that we want everyone else to believe like we do and then we’ll be unified. The difference is that some us want that unity based solely upon a standard – the word of God. I’ll admit that I’m not perfect, but I believe God’s word to be so. If my beliefs conflict with that word then I will admit that it is ME that is in error, not God.

  26. Faithful, please explain every verse in the bible to us that you THINK we should follow. I suppose your view of the Lords supper is law and if we differ from your view, we are lost?

  27. “The methodist have added sprinckling to the new testament . The presyterians have added sprinckling to children, the baptist have added born in sin and once saved always saved , the SDA have added a baptismal vow , . What’s the difference in them and the JW and mormon? None. Let’s not the forget the fact they all add instruments of music to the NT. Where do we draw the line. They have also taken away something. They took way the “not ” and made it faith only.”

    I stand by my COC faith, but there are some things we’ve added too. Despite Jesus’ lack of excluding even Judas from the first Lord’s supper and commanding all to partake, we (COC) only allow those baptized in the COC tradition to be included. Yet we and other denominations rationalize what we can to satisfy ourselves.

    You’re calling the kettle “black” with that argument.

  28. Dennis – that simply isn’t true. I have never been to a congregation of the Lord’s church (and I have been to many) where anyone was refused the Lord’s Supper. I have been to a Catholic church and was refused communion.

    If your congregation, or one you have been to, refuses communion then that is wrong. To say all (or even many or most) churches of Christ do the same is completely wrong.

  29. Dude – here is one who was told flatly by Johnny that my not understanding that the Lords Supper MUST be taken each Sunday was enough to refuse me. I asked him and he said yes, I would be refused, even if I toof the Lords Supper each Sunday, I must too, understand it as they teach.

  30. Well, ol’ Johnny is the exception, not the rule.

    Do you think even he personally questions every person in attendance before they take of the Lord’s Supper?

    Actually, I shouldn’t ask that. He and Diotrephes seem to be close brethren.

  31. I grew up with the “unwritten rule” all my life. In every COC I’ve attended, some were hyper-con, but some were more progressive. Its accepted because its unwritten. But if you don’t believe it to be true, try it. The next time you visit a church as an unknown, give it a try. You’ll be disappointed.

  32. The whole issue of someone refusing the Lord’s Supper seems insane to me.

    At my congregation we have two people who are Baptists, but because of their spouses they usually attend worship with us. I think they’ve come to love taking the Lord’s Supper each Sunday.

    If they weren’t there on Sunday morning they will take it on Sunday night, even if they’re the only person to take it! They are never refused communion. In fact, I see it as a small sign of progress that they are willing to follow the instructions to partake of the Lord’s Supper, even if they still cling to some denominational beliefs.

    If you, me or someone else is taking the Lord’s Supper in the wrong manner then we are eating and drinking damnation unto OURSELVES. It is between the individual and God to sort out whether it was done in an unworthy manner, not Johnny Robertson.

  33. Dennis – I have taken the Lord’s Supper as an “unknown” all over Kentucky and once in Florida. Never did anyone question me about it or even mention it.

  34. You’re a lucky one. As sad it sounds I’ve seen people refused in the COC. I even read on this blog last month where the process appeared to be justified

  35. faithful wrote:

    “Well let’s narrow it down then. The methodist have added sprinckling to the new testament . The presyterians have added sprinckling to children, the baptist have added born in sin and once saved always saved , the SDA have added a baptismal vow , . What’s the difference in them and the JW and mormon? None. Let’s not the forget the fact they all add instruments of music to the NT. Where do we draw the line. They have also taken away something. They took way the “not ” and made it faith only.”

    No, faithful, there is a huge difference between the Christians you mentioned, and the JWs and the Mormons.

    The difference between JWs and Christians:
    http://www.godandscience.org/cults/jwdiff.html

    The difference between Mormons and Christians, from a Mormon website:
    http://www.mormoninfo.org/

    There’s no comparison, faithful. That’s why I brought it up, because it’s a hyperconservative strawman argument.

    And as soon as you show me the BCV where our Old Testament permission for using instruments in worship is taken away, I’ll declare that you are right about that subject. Until then, it is purely your opinion. While I respect that you have that opinion, it has no Biblical bearing on anyone else, unless they, too, share that opinion and interpretation.

    Notice John also mentions taking away, not just adding…

  36. Nathan,

    Do you have alters and burn incense? Do you use only the instruments God authorized through David and Moses or do you use things like organs, pianos, electric guitars and synthesizers?

    Again I’ll ask you, did God need to go back and give a checklist of the elements of worship that were rendered obsolete by Christ fulfilling the law of Moses?

  37. Again calling the kettle “black”. I don’t worship with instruments, but I can’t condemn someone that does-even if there are guitars, pianos, organs, etc… Jesus, Paul, none of the desciples said “don’t use them anymore”- just as they never said worship only in off the path homes of fellow christians. We assume that because of technology and the age very accommodating climate controlled buildings with signs in front, computer controlled technology, power points etc. are okay, but the age and times don’t allow for the same accomodations on instruments?

  38. We’ve been given the specifics we need – fruit of the vine (grape juice works there) and unleavened bread (matza bread -“crackers”-works there as well).

    If it was supposed to be more specific I think it would have been given.

  39. The method of pasteurizing grape juice to halt the fermentation has been attributed to an American physician and dentist, Thomas Bramwell Welch in 1869, even though pasteurizing grape juice was done in ancient times. A strong supporter of the temperance movement, he produced a non-alcoholic wine to be used for church services in his hometown of Vineland, New Jersey. His fellow parishioners continued to prefer and use regular wine. Wonder what they used before 1869 ??? Maybe real wine. Seems like we have strayed from the real element to a “man made” one.

  40. Can we use “any” fruit that grows on a vine or must this only be Welches? Btm line, we follow man made traditions sometimes…dont we

  41. Maybe if it was wine the Bible would have said wine. Not every time you read of wine in the Bible are you reading about something that had much, if any, alcoholic content. Some sources indicate that fresh grape juice that hadn’t fermented was considered the best and most desirable.

    Also, we can know what kind of fruit (of the vine) Jesus used since they were eating the passover. However, since the Bible says “fruit of the vine”, I would say that any juice made from a fruit that grows on vines would be acceptable. Grape juice is readily available, so someone who makes juice from watermelons is really going through a lot of trouble to stretch the command.

    To use juice from grapes, like Jesus did, is not following a man-made tradition. This sounds like arguing for arguments sake.

  42. Arguing for the sake of arguments sake is right. That was the point I was trying to make. Sometimes what we consider matters of faith (instruments for instance) are really kind of petty and don’t have much to do with faith. Sounds almost along the lines of some of the arguments the Gentiles and Jews had that Paul had to address.

  43. wonder how some got drunk from “juice” whom Paul condemned. Eitehr way is fine with me and maybe we are being petty.

  44. Randy (and all interested),

    Thanks for the background on the candlestick…I am in agreement as far as I can tell, and can only add that Rev 1:20 seems to clearly define the candelstick of Rev 2:4-5…the candlesticks/lampstands are churches, so removing their candelstick would be equivalent to losing their place as Christ’s church. God would no longer recognize them as a local congregation of the church…at least that seems completely obvious to me.

    My whole point for bringing this up is this: there is a point at which Christ can decide that a particular assembly of christians is not doing the works they should be, and is, therefore, no longer recognized as a church. This directly relates to the denomination issue. Of all the “churches” out there, there are so many conflicting doctrines and practices that Christ cannot be pleased with all of them (not to mention the division). How do we determine if it is our congregation (or denomination) that He does not recognize? This is really my question…what works were lacking in Ephesus for which Christ called for repentance, and which endangered their status as a true church? What kinds of works might we do/not do that could endanger the position of our local congregations?

    With Rev 2:4-5 I don’t believe we have any right to say, “Well we’re all Christians so we’re all under grace and okay and ought to accept one another.” We have a responsibility to “remember our first love” and “do the works” that Christ would have us do. There are specific things that we must do as a church. We also have a responsibility to help one another and correct one another where we are lacking so that this doesn’t happen to any church. As Paul said, “Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?” [1Cor 5:12] We also have a responsibility to accept criticism, and respond to it properly. Souls are at stake, and there is no room for apathy or defensiveness.

  45. “They came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews: and
    Paul, as his custom was, went in unto them, and for three sabbath
    days reasoned with them from the scriptures, opening and alleging
    that it behooved the Christ to suffer, and to rise again from the dead;
    and that this Jesus, whom, said he, I proclaim unto you is the Christ”
    (Acts 17:l-3). (Cf. Paul with pagans in Acts 14 & 17).
    Despite the fact that only some of the Jews in Thessalonica,
    “consorted” or united with Paul and Silas in addition to the
    “devout Greeks” and some “chief women” of the city (Acts
    17:4), Paul did not compromise truth for the sake of religious
    unity. Everywhere he went he “reasoned” with people by
    logically giving them the evidence on any spiritual matter which
    proved such to be true, whether unity resulted or not, knowing
    (of all people-Acts 23:l) that sincerity minus the Truth will
    damn the soul just as much as one who knows the Truth but is
    insincere will be damned (Phil. 1: 15-17; John 8:32; Josh. 24: 14;
    Rom. 6: 17).

  46. “Dennis – I have taken the Lord’s Supper as an “unknown” all over Kentucky and once in Florida. Never did anyone question me about it or even mention it.

    You may have ate a cracker and swallowed a shot of juice but that’s all. If you take and are not in Christ’s church he didn’t eat with you.

  47. “the primary difference between a member of the
    Lord’s church and the denominationalist relative to Scripture is
    that Christians have reasoned (i.e. recognized the implications
    or made deductions) properly in regard to: (1) what actually
    constitutes religious authority today-The Bible Only-(correctly
    disregarding present-day claims regarding dreams,
    relations, feelings, angels, councils, popes, extra-canonical
    books, creeds, catechisms, manuals, etc.) and (2) the direct
    statements making up the Bible (i.e. using an inductive/
    deductive approach in handling such statements (evidence). For
    instance, our difference with the Mormon cult’s claim to
    “inspired” books past the Bible hinges on the lack of evidence
    proving (implying) their claim and their failure to see the
    available evidence proving (implying) such claim to be false
    (primarily through the Law Of Contradiction). Mormons
    “infer” (they believe) that “additional books” are inspired,
    whereas the Christian infers (knows) this to be false. [NOTE:
    There is no explicit Bible verse stating “The Book Of Mormon is
    false”! Such MUST BE INFERRED!] Though they claim to
    follow Scripture, because of a prior acceptance of the “Watchtower”
    teaching as authoritative, “Jehovah’s Witnesses” will
    misapply “blood passages” even to the point of the death of
    children who are disallowed transfusions. Their inductive/
    deductive methodology is at fault, NOT THE PASSAGES
    USED! “

  48. Faithful – Paul did not compromise truth for the sake of religious unity. Everywhere he went he “reasoned” with people by logically giving them the evidence on any spiritual matter which proved such to be true, whether unity resulted or not, knowing(of all people-Acts 23:l) that sincerity minus the Truth will damn the soul just as much as one who knows the Truth but is insincere will be damned

    This invites many questions. Let me guess, you have it all PERFECTLY fiqured out like Paul. Are you ever wrong and do you think you KNOW everything as did Paul? You state that sincerity minus truth will damn you, so you are saying you have it all fiqured out PERFECTLY and not wrong about one thing you believe the bible teaches? Your very own statement damns you and us all, seeing we all have not arrived nor do we all understand it all PERFECLY, meaning we lack some understanding of TRUTH.

  49. How diverse can we be and still maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace? By diversity I refer to the differences or unlikenesses which exist in that large realm of nonessential matters commonly called “matters of opinion” or more accurately “matters of necessary judgment” about things not legislated by God. This area may include a number of doctrinal issues and matters of considerable importance.

    Surely all of us are ready to admit that there is a very large area of issues, beliefs, practices, and undertakings upon which we differ at once and even after considerable study. At the same time we are largely agreed that some things are beyond debate in the Christian’s mind. The obvious difficulty is where we are going to draw the line between the great field of heterogeneous activities and convictions that are permissible and those convictions and practices that are prohibited or inadmissible. We all draw the line somewhere, and it is right to do so.
    Is there a solution to this vexing problem? What diversity can be tolerated by the body of Christ and what diversity begins the destruction of that body? To be in fellowship with Christ and as many of our brethren as possible is the hope and obligation of our lives. We need, then, a principle or a series of scriptural principles to enable us to determine this vitally important matter in a God-pleasing way. Even after we have a set of guiding principles we are still going to have some diversity in application to plague us. Yet we can hope, given the right principles, to arrive at a oneness of agreement that such differences that remain will be minor trifles.

    With these introductory thoughts in mind, I invite you to search with me for some answers to our diversity. I don’t want to eat up too much space here – go to my blog for more… http://churchesofchrist.wordpress.com/

  50. faithful – first off, I’m a member of the Lord’s church, not some denomination, so I’m sure the Lord ate with me.

    My point is the same as yours – those outside the church “have a bite a cracker and a shot of juice” but that is all they do. There is no reason for us to interrogate each person to make sure their beliefs line up with ours before offering them the Lord’s Supper. If they aren’t a Christian they just had a miniature snack at best, and possibly brought damnation upon themselves at worst.

    We don’t need to “police” the Lord’s Supper within the churches of Christ. God will do that.

  51. “They are actually pushing the plea of Christ for unity away and dividing even more than those they are condemning.”

    I’m living proof that’s lie!

  52. Corey, you wrote earlier: “If you, me or someone else is taking the Lord’s Supper in the wrong manner then we are eating and drinking damnation unto OURSELVES. It is between the individual and God to sort out whether it was done in an unworthy manner, not Johnny Robertson.”

    Out of curosity, why doesn’t the same frame of thought apply to the issue of baptism. I’ve confessed, repented and been baptized, but yet I am told by coC leadesrs that I am not saved. Why isn’t my understanding of baptism an issue between myself and God to sort out without undue judgement from others?

  53. Rick,

    The difference is that your baptism wasn’t Biblical. You didn’t acknowledge that baptism is for the remission of sins and that it comes prior to salvation. Beyond that, even though I (and others) have attempted to show you the Biblical role of baptism I know you’re not going to teach it. You’re going to continue to teach that salvation comes before baptism.

    I can’t know the heart and beliefs of each person when they partake of the Lord’s Supper. Paul is clear that it is between the individual and God. I can know why you were baptized and I can know what you will continue to teach about it. I worry less about your baptism than what you will teach others about it.

    Look at Apollos in Acts 18. He was mighty in the scriptures and teaching many things correctly, but not baptism. Aquilla and Priscilla took him aside and explained it to him properly. That is what I’m trying to do here.

    The Baptist beliefs on baptism remind me of the Ephesians in Acts 19. You have some understanding of what it is and you’re trying to be obedient. However, you need to fully understand baptism, to make sure your baptism is the one God instructed, and to go and teach it correctly from here on. Paul didn’t want to let those men’s baptism be sorted out by God on judgment day, he wanted them to make sure it was correct right then. I want the same for you.

  54. faithful;
    “Dennis – I have taken the Lord’s Supper as an “unknown” all over Kentucky and once in Florida. Never did anyone question me about it or even mention it.

    You may have ate a cracker and swallowed a shot of juice but that’s all. If you take and are not in Christ’s church he didn’t eat with you.

    That’s part of the problem. If we in the COC do let a “baptist” or say an unbaptised child take the Lord’s supper we say they’re just having a snack and Jesus is not eating with them. Christ is the one judging their hearts, not us. How can we justify our actions? Christ even knowingly ate with Judas just moments before He was betrayed.

    First, are you finally saying that other christain denominations are in “Christ’s Church”? How can you say Christ does not dine with His followers outside the COC, when their hearts seek to dine with Him?

    My 10 year old son, is autistic, ADHD, and has cerebral palsy. His learning level is 2nd grade. However he’s really bright is some areas. Last year he wanted to take the Lord’s Supper. I wasn’t going to let it be a “snack” and because so refused for a long time. As a christian dad I don’t believe he’s not ready to be baptized yet, but he has explained to me the absolute meaning of the Lord’s Supper with all the eloquence of a seasoned shephard. Based on his understanding of the Lord’s Supper I agreed to let him begin taking it. My church is a lot more progressive than yours, I definately deduce that. However, each week my wife and I are starred at,we’ve been questioned, even scolded for letting our son take the Lord’s Supper before he’s baptized.

    Last month JC said somewhere on this site (not exact quote)… Since their heart is not in the right place, it doesn’t make sense to offer them the Lord’s Supper. My point is…there we go playing God’s judge again.

  55. Corey,

    Let’s not read into Scripture what is not there. Acts 18 tells us this:

    Meanwhile a Jew named Apollos, a native of Alexandria, came to Ephesus. He was a learned man, with a thorough knowledge of the Scriptures. He had been instructed in the way of the Lord, and he spoke with great fervor and taught about Jesus accurately, though he knew only the baptism of John. He began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they invited him to their home and explained to him the way of God more adequately.

    When Apollos wanted to go to Achaia, the brothers encouraged him and wrote to the disciples there to welcome him. On arriving, he was a great help to those who by grace had believed. For he vigorously refuted the Jews in public debate, proving from the Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ.

    Where does it say that they taught him baptism? It says that they taught him more adequately – and one can assume that baptism was a part of that teaching, but if you do any sort of study about what “more adequately” means, you’ll find every bit of Christian doctrine bantered about as a possibility.

    I included the last paragraph, because I thought that it was interesting that he was a help to those who “by grace had believed”. Maybe that was the “more adequately” – that a person is saved by grace through faith – not through works, like baptism.

    The point? We just don’t know.

  56. Corey – The difference is that your baptism wasn’t Biblical. You didn’t acknowledge that baptism is for the remission of sins and that it comes prior to salvation.

    Corey, when you were baptized per Acts 2:38, how much did you understand about the rest of Acts 2:38, which we so often leave out. The rest says and you shall recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit…when you were baptized, did you understand what that part of the verse means – per you doctrinal view, you hang yourself with such thinking. I have talked with many and almost all didnt understand the rest of Acts 2:38 when they were baptized…if one part of the verse has to be understood to make baptism valid so does the rest. It’s time we stop this nonsense and allow God to do as he says Col. 2:12 – He does the work in baptism – Mark 16:16 does not say He that believes and understands everything about baptism perfectly shall be saved. Again, if the first part of Acts 2:38 must be understood PERFECTLY, so does the rest…

  57. What does the Bible say was the area in which he was lacking? Baptism. He knew only the baptism of John. Perhaps there were other areas in which he needed instruction, but we can KNOW that he wasn’t teaching proper baptism since it is the one area specifically mentioned.

    Can a person with an incomplete understanding still be a help to true believers? Of course. I bet that some of Rick’s sermons are full of Biblical truths that would be a help to me. That doesn’t mean that all he taught would be scriptural. Apollos is a great example of that.

    Lastly, baptism is never called a work in scriptures. Belief (which we all agree to be essential to salvation) is called a work in John 6:29. Now, is that a work that saves us? No. No work can save us, as salvation comes by the grace of God. Does that mean that there is nothing we are to do? No. There is a huge difference between an act of obedience in submission to God’s commands and a meritorious work to earn our salvation.

    Now, I’ve just showed you where belief in God is a work in scriptures. Can you show me where baptism is called a work in the New Testament?

  58. Randy,

    After I was baptized I realized that I had received the gift of the Holy Spirit. I knew that He now dwells within me (1 Cor 6:19). I knew that He now intercedes for me in prayer (Romans 8:26-27). I knew that by following the word He inspired I might produce the fruit that God desires (Galatians 5).

    I don’t think it takes too long to explain those things or to learn those things.

    I agree with you that it is God who does the work in baptism. I would never dispute that. But by saying that we don’t really need much, if any, understanding of baptism makes Paul a fool in Acts 19. Why didn’t he tell those Ephesians, “don’t worry, God does the work in baptism. It doesn’t matter what you believed or understood about it. God is going to make everything alright”?

    What he actually did was to explain it to them and then immerse them again in the proper way. If it didn’t matter what they knew then it would have been pointless to do it a second time.

  59. Corey and Rick,

    Good point, Corey, about there being a difference between works of submission to God and meritorious works. We cannot earn our salvation [Eph 2:9], but God will still judge us according to our deeds [1Peter 1:17].

    The definition of “faith” has been altered. Saving faith in Scripture is always accompanied by works. [see Heb 11] Even James said that “faith without works is dead.” [James 2:17] This is why the term “faithful” means “obedient.”

    So, Rick, no one making comments (as far as I can tell) is advocating salvation by personal merit…doing enough works to be recognized as a “good” person. We are only advocating true faith. If I say that baptism is necessary for salvation it is only because God has asked us to be baptized, and true, living faith requires that we submit to Him. A “believer” is not simply one who believes, but one who has put their faith in Christ.

    But, Corey, to say that one must have been “baptized for the remission of sins” in order to be saved is not being consistent. As Rick pointed out, if you say that one must fully understand remission of sins, then they must also fully understand the gift of the Holy Spirit. They are both direct results of baptism and repentance according to Acts 2:38. And I know I still don’t fully understand the gift of the Holy Spirit…does that mean my baptism was invalid?

    Also, Acts 2:38, as we in the cofC like to point out, would be better translated “unto the remission of sins” rather than “for the remission of sins.” If this is true (and I believe it is) then remission is a result of baptism, not a condition to be met in the mind of the candidate. We are not baptized specifically to receive forgiveness, but to turn our lives over to God, which results in forgiveness.

    Rick and Corey, baptism is an act of submission, a pledge to God to be His servant. [1Peter 3:21] This is why Jesus was baptized…to fulfill all righteousness…to declare to God that He wanted to be a servant. Simple obedience to the command is not enough, but neither do we have to understand all of the results (I don’t know of anyone but possibly Christ who did).

    Rick, I cannot judge your baptism…I wasn’t there. But I do think the fact that baptism is so closely linked to salvation terminology demands that you take a second (third, fourth, however many you are up to now) look at what you might teach about it.

    Corey, be careful not to require something of the baptizee that is God’s work: remission of sins. Certainly we ought to teach every potential convert about the results of baptism, including remission. But, for those who did not understand remission, but still made a commitment to God in baptism, we cannot require from them what is God’s work without requiring an understanding of every spiritual blessing of baptism.

  60. Rick,

    You asked: “Why isn’t my understanding of baptism an issue between myself and God to sort out without undue judgement from others?”

    My answer: Because some of us care enough to judge. 1Corinthians 5:12 says, “Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?” Of course this judgment is not simply for the sake of condemning others, but is supposed to motivate us to help and correct others and maintain the purity of the church (getting out the leaven and all that).

    I hope you know, Rick (and everyone else), that I am not trying to condemn you, but only trying to help and correct where I see clear contradictions of Scripture. I would expect no less from you or anyone else who claims to follow Christ.

  61. Corey -After I was baptized I realized that I had received the gift of the Holy Spirit.

    I see you stated “AFTER”. This is what I mean Corey, you on one hand can tell soemone they must understand part of Acts 2:38 “before” hand and then you can understand the rest AFTER…come on now, you can see the folly here. If you insist one understand Acts 2:38 before their baptism is valid, you just hung yourslef with your own statement ( AFTER )…I think Clint exlains this very well…

  62. I still trying to catch up but here is my thoughts on My understanding of Acts 18: 24-26: That Apollos, who was a Jew bred in the Jewish religion, traditions and Scripture, either came in contact with John the Baptist or heard of his message on the baptism of repentance (John didn’t teach salvation ie the death, burial and resurrection of Christ for it had not happened, he taught of the coming of the Messiah and of the need for repentance). Apollos accepted John’s teaching that Jesus was the Lamb of God but Apollos did not know yet of Jesus’ death and resurrection as Savior or of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. He taught what he knew of the Old Testament Scriptures diligently and accurately Acts 18 tells us. Priscilla and Aquila could tell that Apollos had not heard of the full story of the gospel (of Jesus the Messiah’s death, burial and resurrection) so they shared it with him.

  63. Clint,

    I understand what you’re saying. Baptism is “unto” the remission of sins in the same way we’re told confession is “unto” salvation. Both bring us near salvation, but it is God who actually brings us into salvation. I don’t want anyone to think I’m saying the act of baptism saves and if that is how it came across I apologize.

    The problem I have is what is taught in the Baptist churches and others – that salvation comes before salvation. Rick can correct me as to his personal baptism if I’m wrong, but most Baptist churches teach that baptism is only a sign of obedience after salvation, not an act of obedience that occurs prior to God saving us. I don’t claim to perfectly understand everything in God’s word, nor would I expect anyone else to, but to deny that baptism occurs before salvation is not in harmony with scripture. You don’t have to understand everything in the New Testament to understand that.

    I am not addressing the honest individuals who are never taught fully about baptism and are baptized as a sign of obedience. I am addressing people who have been shown, through the Bible, that baptism is an act of obedience that must occur before we can be confident of our salvation. Those people now have a responsibility to cast off what they’ve been previously taught and to examine the scriptures on their own.

    Look again at the Ephesians of Acts 19. If Paul had never found them and explained baptism fully to them, would their baptism have been valid in God’s eyes? I can’t say, but I would hope so, but I have no Biblical evidence to support my hope. The fact is that they were explained more fully about baptism. They could have said, “well, what if we’d never been taught by you, Paul? What then?” Or, “Paul you’re being petty by insisting we get baptism ‘right'”, or “what if we don’t have a perfect understanding about everything?” They could have fought against Paul’s teachings like so many do today, but they didn’t. They simply obeyed and I would hope that anyone who is taught the truth more fully would attempt to follow it rather than throw out “what-ifs” and objections.

  64. Randy – I just worded that wrong. What I meant was, I understood before I was baptized that I would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit after I was baptized.

    I understood before I was baptized those blessings of the Holy Spirit that I would receive after I was baptized.

    So, no, I’m not hanging myself with that logic. I just failed to express myself clearly in my post.

  65. Corey, you are one of few who understood that then – most dont. Matter of fact the church of Christ have three diff takes on “the gift of the Holy Spirit” or maybe I should say there are three takes on what this verse means. Let me ask you this ” what if you failed to understand Acts 2:38, would God still save you if you were baptized? It sounds like you are saying yes, which I agree.

  66. Rick – your post about Apollos being only a Jew and not at all acquainted with Jesus is just wrong. Look at verse 25:

    he was speaking and teaching accurately the things concerning Jesus

    We are also told in the same verse that he had been instructed in the way of the Lord. Obviously his instructions had not been complete, but he still was trying to follow Jesus. Again, we can only point to one error in his teaching – the one the Bible plainly gives us – and that is an incomplete understanding of baptism. Any other areas in which he needed instruction are purely conjecture.

  67. Okay – I misspoke when I called baptism a work. Scripturally, it is not ever referred to as such. And it seems from your post that you and I agree that baptism is not a “meritorious work to earn our salvation”.

    I’ve appreciated the comments, and I agree with much that has been said on both sides. It sounds like the big difference is what we believe with regards to the point of salvation. And Scripturally, there are arguments for both sides. How do we reconcile this?

    Does it have to be “my way or the highway”, or is there a third way?

    I’m just asking.

  68. Randy,

    What will happen if you fail to understand Acts 2:38? Would God still save you? I don’t know. I said that I would hope so. What Corey hopes doesn’t equal what God will do. I hope everyone be saved, but God said that isn’t going to happen.

    The bigger question in my mind is, what if someone tries to fully explain baptism to you and you reject it? What if you write it off as a “petty” issue and on judgment day you find out God didn’t think it was “petty” at all?

    I think the Bible teaches that grace is good enough to cover our honest faults and misunderstandings. To openly reject a teaching because it doesn’t fall in line with what we’ve been previously taught is not an honest misunderstanding – it is an outright rejection of God’s word.

  69. Nathan,

    It gives me great joy to hear you acknowledge that baptism is not a meritorious work to earn salvation. So many people try to say that is what is taught within the churches of Christ, and it is not. I really appreciate you saying that. I love to hear when we all agree.

    As to how we reconcile the moment of salvation, let me try to give my best explanation:

    I believe the Bible to teach that salvation occurs after we have heard the word, believed it, repented of our sins, confessed Christ as Lord and been immersed for the remission of sins.

    If I am wrong, and it occurs somewhere else within those commands, then what has happened to displease God? Nothing.

    Someone else believes that salvation occurs before baptism, and therefore teaches that it isn’t essential, can be altered (by sprinkling or pouring), and doesn’t ever have to occur.

    If they are wrong, and it does occur after immersion, the what has happened to displease God? Perhaps many things. A command has been altered or disregarded.

    Which version shows the most reverence for God’s word? Which version takes fewer chances with our salvation?

    There is no “my way or the highway”. There is only “God’s way or the highway (perhaps “low-way” is better)”. My plea in all matters is to be as safe and sure as we can, not leaving things to chance, and not trying God’s grace to see just how much it will cover.

  70. I understand what youre saying Corey, but others may not – and may never reach our “supposed” understanding, so do we write them off as brethern ? I just cant do that, seeing I am not perfect and who knows – could be wrong myself. We have downed people way too long over the issue of baptism and its time we allow God to be God. I agree with you, but some may never understand this as you and I…

  71. – I’ve appreciated the comments, and I agree with much that has been said on both sides. It sounds like the big difference is what we believe with regards to the point of salvation. And Scripturally, there are arguments for both sides. How do we reconcile this?

    Does it have to be “my way or the highway”, or is there a third way?

    I’m just asking.

    Nathan, I think somehow we must agree to disagree. I know this doesnt fly well with most cofC people, but either we walk together this way or we just keep making more and more sects. I always find it funny how we can put down denominations and pretend we arent split all up…truth is we are just as split over even less issues….

  72. I love you each in the Lord and look forward to the day that we all rejoice in eternal worship of our Lord and Saviour. May God bless!

  73. I, too am catching up-and only have a few things to say..

    First of all, I don’t think you, Corey (or any of us) have the right or place to be able to judge whether Rick’s baptism was valid b/c you were not there and do not know His heart, and obviously are not God. I don’t believe we have the right to judge people’s baptism based on the knowledge they had prior to being baptized. Like many have said, we do not have to understand it all before for it to be valid-I know I did not, but I know I am still saved.

    The second point is something you recently touched on Corey, and I agree with you-I would never preach Jesus and His message without leaving out baptism. I don’t know how one could read the Bible and just decide to leave it out. If I was bringing someone to Christ and sharing the message with Him, I would most definitely include baptism as something to be obeyed. I don’t think many of us here would argue with that whatsoever.

    The problem I have with what you are saying is this: That we HAVE to know exactly what baptism is doing prior to being baptized for it to be valid and be acceptable to God. I don’t read that in the Bible and I serve a God who wants ALL men to be saved (I know they all will not, but it is still His desire). If we are being obedient to Him, but may not have it all figured out yet, I know, because I serve a powerful and amazing God full of grace and love-that He will save us. It is a journey of coming to know Him and coming more into a relationship with Him-we obey Him out of a desire to be like Him and come closer to Him-but we will not understand it ALL at that moment. Actually, we will probably never understand it all until we get to heaven! It is a completely different circumstance when people have been taught the message and refuse to obey or decide to do it their own way-I do believe that.

    I think why people think some in the CofC believe it is a work we do is when we emphasize more on what we KNOW that on what God does in the act of baptism-it is God who saves, not our knowledge. When we make it more of-what did you know or not know-then we boil it down to us and push God out of the picture, and I think that is wrong.

    I don’t think any of us are trying to play with God’s grace-I would never want to do that. I never “want to test the waters” to see how far I can go to stay in His grace-that would just be absurd. I know some do that, and they are treading on dangerous ground-but I honestly believe that the men and women who have posted here are not in that category, and are truly trying to faithfully follow God the best we know how.

  74. Ok, maybe that was more than a few things 😉

    There is another thing that you said, Corey that resonated with me:

    “I think the Bible teaches that grace is good enough to cover our honest faults and misunderstandings. To openly reject a teaching because it doesn’t fall in line with what we’ve been previously taught is not an honest misunderstanding – it is an outright rejection of God’s word.”

    I completely agree-that is why I have changed some of my stances that are normally “CofC doctrine” because what I read in the Bible does not line up with some of the beliefs, and when it boils down to it-my loyalties lie with God and what He says over what the “church of Christ” tells me to believe. That is what frustrates me when something can be directly pointed out in scripture to some of those who have been GIVEN a line of doctrine to believe-and EVEN when the Word of God is placed in front of their face to show what they are teaching does not line up with what they have previously believed or have been taught-they choose to stay where they are. I don’t get that. I know that is not easy-to admit that something you have believed all along may not be correct-and it is a journey of constantly seeking, discovering, studying, and trying to figure out the will of God. We will never “arrive”… until we meet God face to face. I definitely look forward to that day!! 🙂

  75. Katherine, what specifically do you see that the cofC is teaching that’s not biblical? You state you can show them ( us ) places in the bible and we just ignore it – what things do refer to? We could easily make the same argument and say we show you things and you fail to believe them. This is the whole problem – we all have our convictions as to what we believe and when someone rejects them ,we often reject the person. This, I think is where we should learn to walk together and love each other as Christ loves us…as JP pointed out, who gives any of us the right to say we are right totally with our interpretations ? I have my own convictions as to what I believe the scripture teaches and I could very well be wrong, but I refuse to be like Johnny and others and dismiss everyone who disagrees with me. That attitude is pure pride and only create “puffed up knowledge”.

  76. Corey said: I think the Bible teaches that grace is good enough to cover our honest faults and misunderstandings. To openly reject a teaching because it doesn’t fall in line with what we’ve been previously taught is not an honest misunderstanding – it is an outright rejection of God’s word.

    Corey, you as I was raised c of c and we were taught certain things. Do you EVER reject a teaching because it does not fall in line with what the c of c taught you? Think about it. Additionally, do you really believe people outright rejects God’s word? What would they be gaining to be intentionally doing that. I think they are not rejecting God’s word outright, rather, it is an outright rejection of YOUR interpretation or the interpretation you were taught. I think your comment stems from some of the things we were taught, like people in denominations “don’t want to follow the truth” Like this is some character flaw that denominational types have.

  77. I agree Gail. I dont meet many people who are “trying” to reject God or the word, but there are many who fight and debate with each other over their interpretations..hense the many, many sects and denominations – even within the church of Christ.

  78. Oh Randy, I think you misunderstood me-I am actually a member of the “church of Christ”, and I wasn’t referring that to all of us-I meant those with the mentality of Johnny and those like him. I was specifically referring to a man (who is a preacher) that me, Nathan, Gail, and some others have engaged with-who will refuse to face any scripture I give him but will only continue to tout his party line-without even seeing it-and is incredibly rude to those who disagree with him.

    I am sorry for the confusion-I did not mean that towards anyone here (except Johnny). If you would read through most of what I have written, you would know that I do not dismiss people who disagree with me-even these people who believe they have it all right. I will not reject a person who does not believe like I do. I have tried to focus on the love and unity we find in Christ as we walk together and try to be faithful to God and His will. We do not have to agree on everything to be able to do that-if you will read what I have written, you can see that, I hope. I completely agree with what you said-I know I do not have it ALL right, either-that is why I said none of us have “arrived”, but I do continue to study and learn on my own-taking what I have been taught and measuring it up to the Word of God. That is what I meant.

    I hope I cleared that up 🙂

  79. Gail – I wasn’t raised in the church of Christ, I was raised in the Baptist church. Because of that I know what it is like to be told that my previously held beliefs may not be correct. Everyone keeps talking about personal interpretations. If you read Acts 2:38 and you conclude that baptism is essential you have no personal interpretation, you’re just saying what Peter said. If you read it and conclude that baptism isn’t essential then you are injecting personal interpretations. The big question is why would you interpret it differently than what it says? Usually because you’ve already been taught it isn’t essential to salvation. That is exactly how I reacted at first. I had to stop trying to see the Bible through Baptist lenses, or even Church of Christ lenses, and just let it say what it says.

    Katherine – first off, I didn’t question Rick’s baptism. I even said that he is free to correct me if he believes and teaches that baptism occurs prior to salvation. I know what he teaches now because he’s made it clear here. I once believed as the Baptists do, so I’m not coming from left field here. Rick is still free to correct me, but I’m confident he won’t, because what I said is true amongst almost all Baptists.

    Second, you say that you would always teach baptism. Why? Would you teach that baptism is by immersion? Why? The truth is, anything that you would teach on baptism you learned through God’s word. That is all I’m doing here – trying to present the sum of God’s word on baptism, not just some of God’s word on baptism.

    Again I’ll ask you, like I’ve asked everyone else here, why would Paul in Acts 19 have the Ephesians to be immersed again if there was no proper way to do it? Why are we acting like the passages on baptism are mysterious or cryptic? They are not. Paul stated that baptism was one of the “elementary principles” of our faith. Something elementary should be able to be understood. If it doesn’t matter what we believe, just that we do have some sort of understanding of baptism, then what Paul did was foolish and redundant.

    I see you, Randy and Dennis as coming from a noble position. You want the unity Christ prayed for and you want to join in fellowship with those who profess Christ. I want the same. I also want to be like Aquilla and Priscilla and present the word of God in its full form. I want to be like Paul and make sure no one takes a chance on their salvation because they only have a partial understanding. Having a partial understanding does not make a person wicked, it just means that they aren’t complete. Why must we reject a full understanding? Why is that not something worthy of striving for?

    Look at the attitude of the Ephesians in Acts 19 and compare it to the attitudes of many today. Those men simply submitted and today we argue.

  80. I know Johnny quite well. I have atteneded his place here and tents and have emailed him for 10 years. I still talk some via email with him. I am from the area Nathan is from…

  81. Corey – see you, Randy and Dennis as coming from a noble position. You want the unity Christ prayed for and you want to join in fellowship with those who profess Christ. I want the same. I also want to be like Aquilla and Priscilla and present the word of God in its full form. I want to be like Paul and make sure no one takes a chance on their salvation because they only have a partial understanding. Having a partial understanding does not make a person wicked, it just means that they aren’t complete.

    Randy – Who will ever be complete in understanding totally while here on earth? I dont know of anyone, but I do understand what you are saying too.

  82. Corey, I understand the unity to be “in Christ” not in our understanding of every doctrine and verse.

  83. I didn’t mean that as any reflection on you, Randy-I know that you know Johnny, but I know that you no longer believe like him or endorse what he is doing.

    I am sorry if my message somehow became distorted.

  84. No, its all good. I am far from being part of these men and will do my best to make every know that all people in the church of Christ do not act the way they do. They have really given the church of Christ a bad name around here…

  85. So that there is no doubt, I do believe that salvation comes the moment a believing person confesses Jesus as Lord and Saviour, while repenting of sins and accepting Jesus’ forgiveness… all of which generally happens prior to baptism, not during or after.

  86. You can’t confess Christ as Saviour and Lord without repentance. Isn’t that understood?

  87. No, that is not understood. Where is that stated in Romans 10:9? Or are you saying that Romans 10:9 doesn’t give us all the things we’re required to do?

  88. Also to make a correction: Corey you wrote– “Rick – your post about Apollos being only a Jew and not at all acquainted with Jesus is just wrong.”

    I did not say that Apollos was not acquainted with Jesus. I wrote earlier that “Apollos accepted John’s teaching that Jesus was the Lamb of God but Apollos did not know yet of Jesus’ death and resurrection as Savior or of the baptism of the Holy Spirit.”

    My thought indicates that he was acquainted with part of the story of Jesus, in particular the part of Jesus as the promised Messiah. He learned of the Old Testament prophecy of the Messiah as a Jew and evidently accepted John’s teaching that Jesus was that Messiah.

  89. Are you assuming confession and belief in Christ in Acts 2:38? Because all that it says is to repent and be baptized. If you repent of sins and are baptized without confessing Christ as Lord and Saviour are you saved? Does Simply being baptized in the name of Christ bring salvation or must there also be belief in Christ?

  90. So are you admitting that Romans 10:9 doesn’t tell us everything we need to do, or are you just throwing out another question for me?

    And no, I’m not assuming confession & belief in Acts 2:38. I don’t have to assume – it is right there.

    Peter preached to them, telling them Jesus was the Christ who they crucified. They were “pricked to the heart” meaning that they believed what he preached and were hurt because of it. They cried out “men and brethren, what shall we do”, confessing that what Peter had said was true – that Jesus is the Christ. They would not have asked that if they didn’t believe. By acknowledging what he said was true they confessed it to be so.

    At that point they had already heard, believed and confessed. What remained? Peter told them to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins.

    All of the things we must do are presented in Acts 2 – hearing, believing, repenting, confessing and being baptized. They were all to be done prior to salvation. No baptism alone will not save you. Confession alone will not save you. Faith alone will not save you. None of them alone will save you. In fact, only God can save us, but all of those things are to be done on our part before He does the saving.

  91. Rick, I think he context of Acts 2:38 reveals that they did hear, believe, and confess Christ. Backing up to Acts 2 Peter preached to them Christ and they had faith in his message evidenced by them being hurt in their hearts. At this point they clearly had faith prior to being forgiven ( as Corey pointed out ) so this alone kills the “faith only” doctrine. Because after they had faith in Christ, they ask Peter a question “what shall we do”? Here we must be honest with ourselves – why would they ask Peter this question if they already were saved by their faith in the message Peter preached. Peter could have said ” men and brethern, you dont need to ask “what shall we do” , you clearly believed, having faith in Christ, so thats enough, but, no, Peter answered “repent and be baptized” for the forgiveness of sins. Its pretty easy to see then that their “faith only” was not enough – if so, Peter would not have told them what they must do. I agree with Corey – the men in Acts 2 were not saved upon simple “faith only”, seeing they clearly had faith prior to asking Peter what shall we do. I tried to get around this for 6 months and trust me, there is no way around this. I know the “eis” arguments and the grammer arguments and none hold water…its so simple to see that they clearly had faith and clearly believed prior to asking Peter what to do…theres no way around this…

  92. One thing everyone should know – there is no way around the teaching/doctrine of baptism that is taught by the church of Christ as far as being connected to forgiveness of sins. I have watched debate after debate, even tried myself to prove their teaching wrong, even ask an ex church of Christ preacher, and he said there is no way to win a debate with them on baptism. Trust me, every single argument you have they have already heard and have an answer. I even used this against the top baptist preacher of our area and one from NC and they could not defend their belief and teaching on baptism. Note, this is not a boast, but merely statements. I regret acting this way with these men and told them I was sorry for acting the way I did – I was more interested debating my supposed views than winning the lost. If you wish to debate the views that the church of Christ have on baptism, be well prepared and know that they have every argument covered – nothing you can say will be new to them – they are well prepared.

  93. if a master says to his servant “do this”and his servant is obedient, will the master then chasten and reject the servant? or will he reward his faithfulness?
    baptism,while a command is like any of the commandments
    obedience is what is required, not understanding.
    it seems that some here will not allow us to enter in to the kingdom and neither will they admit that we are servants. god be merciful to me a sinner.
    lee

  94. Well since you look to whole of Chapter 2 to make your case for Acts 2;38 already having the elements of belief and confession to add to the idea of repentance, let us look to the whole of Chapter 10 of Romans to see that Romans 10:9 connects with the elements of repentance and belief:

    Paul wrote of the need to submit to the righteousness of God in verse 3. In order to submit to the righeousness of God you must repent. Verse 9 completes that submitting to God’s righteousness (through repentance)with confession and belief.

  95. “Submitting to the righteousness of God” is a broad statement that would include many things – possibly including repentance. If you want to get where we are specifically told to repent (using that word or a direct reference to turning from sin) you’re going to have to go outside of Romans 10 and that is my point.

    We have to look at the whole of the word. The difference between us is that we both believe Romans 10:9 but it appears that only one of us believes Acts 2:38.

  96. But Corey,

    Even doing that (looking at those two verses) is inadequate. One must look at the totality of Scripture for the unifying message. I have done this before with regards to the issue of justification, and will repeat what I found here:

    Looking at the issue of “justification by faith alone”, I’m interested in the words of Scripture, which plainly say, on the one side (and not including Romans 4):

    Ro 3: “…because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.”

    Ro 3:28: “For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.”

    Ro 5:1: “Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ…”

    Ga 2:16: “…nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.”

    Ga 3:11: “Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “The righteous man shall live by faith.”

    Ga 3:24: “Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.”

    And on the other side – the issue of our work, we have James:

    Jas 2:21: “Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?”

    Jas 2:24: “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

    Jas 2:25: “In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?”

    Now, it’s a given to any Bible-believing Christian that these two seemingly opposing ideas have to mesh. One needs to examine the context of James to understand that James wasn’t speaking counter to Paul. Rather, James was speaking to a specific context where people were not acting properly (2:1), dishonoring the poor, showing partiality towards the rich (2:2,3).

    “What good is it, my brothers and sisters,” James writes, “if you say you have faith but do not…” …feed and clothe the poor. “Can that faith save him?” (h pistiv swsai auton?) Of course that faith can’t save him, because it’s not faith when you claim to follow the Lord and don’t take care of the needy in your community.

    James goes on to reiterate this point by showing the stupidity of someone claiming faith but not having any works to show for it (2:18). James 2:24 is not hard to understand when looked at in light of these other passages – James is plainly saying that the two go together – that if you have one, you have the other, or conversely, that one without the other is useless. Singer Rich Mullins put it this way, “faith without works, like a song you can’t sing, it’s about as useless as a screen door on a submarine.”

    I note especially James 5:15, “And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.”

  97. Nathan – One must look at the totality of Scripture for the unifying message.

    Randy – This, I think is the very point Corey is trying to make. We cant pull a verse here and there and build a doctrine. Like Corey pointed out, the verses that are sometimes use do not even contain the word “repent” in them meaning we must get that from other verses, and so it is with baptism. We have to take the totallity of scripture, not just part of it…the bible does teach faith and it teaches repentance, it also teaches confession, and it teaches baptism, and never is baptism “an outward sign” only…at least to me it seems to be connected to sins as faith, repentance, and confession are…I dont understand why we have such an issue with baptism when its the most passive act of all….

  98. Let me state it this way – every single verse Nathan just posted and every one posted by Rick – I BELIEVE, the question is do you believe the others reagarding baptism? Cant we take them all as a whole?

  99. Was the baptism of John from heaven or from men?” ( Luke 20:4 ) Also, notice that those who refused/rejected Johns baptism of repentance was said to be rejecting the counsel of God. “What is the meaning of the phrase, ‘justified God,’ in Luke 7:29? Isn’t God just already? How could man possibly ‘justify’ God?” – And all the people when they heard, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John. But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected for themselves the counsel of God, being not baptized of him” (Lk. 7:28-30). Many of those who heard John preach were genuinely impressed with his message, and multitudes sought him out in the valley of the Jordan river, and submitted to his baptism (Mt. 3:5). Others (e.g., some of the Pharisees and Sadducees) were insincere, requesting his baptism out of base motives.
    Luke, therefore, declares that “all the people” [i.e., vast numbers] and the publicans “justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John” (7:29). The participle, “being baptized,” explains how the “justification” took place.
    Certainly God was not “justified” in the same sense that sinners are justified. Rather, these obedient folks, by their acceptance of John’s message, acknowledged that God was “just” in giving the ordinance of baptism. Conversely, those who rejected John’s preaching (e.g., certain Pharisees and lawyers), “rejected for themselves the counsel of God.”

  100. “On May 13, 2008 at 8:12 pm Katherine Said:
    It’s not a lie-it is truth, and we can see it. Why can’t you?”

    Well I could ask you the same thing. The fact it that through these mens efforts and unwillingness of the denominational preachers in the area these men had led me to the truth. The reason the denominational preachers won’t defend what they teach is because they can not. The truth of the bible will withstand scrutiny . False preachers hare the light shined on what they teach and for a reason.

    Also I’m don’t think I ve seen anyone answer my question about are these men saved or not?

  101. “Corey, you wrote earlier: “If you, me or someone else is taking the Lord’s Supper in the wrong manner then we are eating and drinking damnation unto OURSELVES. It is between the individual and God to sort out whether it was done in an unworthy manner, not Johnny Robertson.””

    Why drag Johnny into your sin? Does he not have responibilty to guard his own soul? You know the old saying misery loves company . We will not let you drag us into your sinful rebellous behavior

  102. “Faithful – Paul did not compromise truth for the sake of religious unity. Everywhere he went he “reasoned” with people by logically giving them the evidence on any spiritual matter which proved such to be true, whether unity resulted or not, knowing(of all people-Acts 23:l) that sincerity minus the Truth will damn the soul just as much as one who knows the Truth but is insincere will be damned ”

    It’s my understanding that Johnny reasoned with you for over a year and you have rejected that reasoning. We still are here trying to reason with you and you continue to reject. Should the church reject the truth to satisfy you? Just because you’ve chosen to reject the truth and live apart from the Lord doesn’t mean the rest of us choose to. Tell me what denomination have you left the Lord’s church for? The penecostal church where folks like your father are involved? Did someone not die from being involved with his preaching ?

  103. “On May 14, 2008 at 7:31 pm lee Said:
    if a master says to his servant “do this”and his servant is obedient, will the master then chasten and reject the servant? or will he reward his faithfulness?
    baptism,while a command is like any of the commandments
    obedience is what is required, not understanding.
    it seems that some here will not allow us to enter in to the kingdom and neither will they admit that we are servants. god be merciful to me a sinner.
    lee”

    How can a person have faith in what they are doing if they are doing it for the wrong reason?

  104. Is teaching a false message love? Is teaching a different plan of salvation then in the bible love? I think being honest and telling the truth is love even when it hurts. The denominational churches do not teach the same plan I read in the bible period. The church has been offering a $1000 reward for any one that can show the plan of the sinners prayer for people with no relationship to God for over 10 years with no takers. What does that say?

  105. “On May 15, 2008 at 8:39 am Randy Said:
    Faithful, can you use your real name ?”

    Would that matter? Would that change anything?

  106. I agree – there is no “sinners prayer”. I dont see why you cant use your real namne though, seeing Johnny and crew would consider this to be cowardly. Maybe that only applies to everyone else though 🙂

    So you never have taught anything false – you have reached a level of perfection that everyone else hasnt got to yet ? Notice that false teachers in the bible were false because they were not interested in God or Christ, not because they wasnt as smart as you and others. Look up fasle teacher in the bible and apply the context…

  107. faithful,

    I’ve been offering $1000 for someone to find “church of Christ” – the name that so many of you have chosen for the churches where you assemble – in the Scriptures for the past several months. No one can. What does that say?

    You wrote to Randy:

    “Just because you’ve chosen to reject the truth and live apart from the Lord doesn’t mean the rest of us choose to.”

    No, Randy has chosen to reject the teachings of the three hyperconservative churches of Christ in the NC/VA region. It’s not “the truth” – it’s their interpretation of the truth. There’s a difference.

  108. Oh, this just frustrates me to death. Can these people not see what they are doing???!!! Ugh.

    If they ACTUALLY think God can be pleased with this, they have been terribly misled. This is truly the work of satan, and it makes me so sad…and angry.

  109. faithful – please tell me what my sinful rebellious behavior is. Please show me where I have said something that wasn’t Biblically true. Please show me where we differ in doctrine.

  110. Why does it have to be “you vs. them”? “Church of Christ vs. denominations”? It is so incredibly absurd and illogical, and a complete waste of time for the cause of Christ. You don’t have a monopoly on the truth-good grief. That is pure arrogance, and is nothing like Christ. I just get so sick of this. You want truth-even when it hurts?! Alright-you are preaching a false doctrine and you are going against what Christ came to save us for. You spit on the cross when you make these claims and tell people they are “outside of Christ” if they don’t believe EXACTLY like you do. It simply isn’t Biblical and is a sin-it is what satan LOVEs and what God despises. There is some truth for you.

    You have been blinded by an agenda, and only the love of Christ can break through that.

  111. Corey, having been somewhat mixed up with these men, they will consider your view on the liberal side, seeing you make exceptions on baptism like our conversations of dead bed confessions – they do not at all teach this and will quickly say ” if you waited to your death bed to turn to Christ, you are lost, thats if you dont get baptized” I think Christ showed His love on the cross to a death bed conversion…but they have their spin on this too.

    Faithful, come on here with your real name. You guys say Jackie hides behind the walls – seems like you are doing this too.

  112. It really shows how conservative and liberal are such subjective terms (I hate labels anyway!)

    It is interesting, Corey that you have stated more than once that you agree with what Johnny teaches-but because you disagree with how he goes about it, they want to write you off, too. That really shows me who they are and makes me wonder who they really do allow as their brother or sister. They certainly don’t see people in other “denominations” as part of them-but they go even farther by not allowing anyone into that sect unless they believe right down the line with them. What an utter shame and how judgmental. They are bringing wrath upon themselves and don’t even recognize it. I don’t know how the wonderful message of Christ can be so distorted till it gets to this point.

  113. Katherine – You don’t have a monopoly on the truth-good grief. That is pure arrogance, and is nothing like Christ.

    Randy – You are so right and I wish these men could see this. How someone can be so puffed up with knowledge to such a degree is sad.

  114. Randy – let me clarify again, I am not saying that God will accept death-bed confessions without baptism. I said that I hope that He will. I can’t say this enough – what Corey hopes does not equal what God will do.

    I do know that those cases are few and far between. God will judge them righteously as only He is righteous. If He accepts them then I accept His judgment. If He rejects those people, I accept that as well.

    I don’t see anyone here on their death-bed, but I see many who won’t accept the scriptural role of baptism.

  115. Corey, do you believe that the church of Christ are the only ones goping to heaven, meaning no Baptist,or any denomination will be in heaven. This is the position that “faithful” holds and if you disagree with him, you will be considered lost too ( by faithful )

  116. Randy,

    Let me tell you what I know according to God’s word. Telling you what I believe doesn’t matter if it can’t be backed up by scripture.

    I know that those who hear the word, believe it, confess Christ as Lord, repent of their sins, are baptized unto the remission of sins and live a faithful life to Christ will go to heaven. That is a promise of God. As He cannot lie, I know it to be true.

    I know that many people who claim to be followers of Christ are in for a big surprise on Judgment Day. They are going to say they were His followers and did many wonderful things in His name, but He is going to tell them He never knew them (Matthew 7:22-23)

    I know that those who love Christ will keep His commandments (John 14:15).

    I know that there are false teachers, claiming to teach the truth, but they are not (Matthew 7:15).

    I also know that God is the ultimate judge, not me. I will try to live only by His word and try to teach the truth of that word to others. If they reject that truth, then God alone will judge them. Those are the things I can know. To go beyond them, and to sit in the throne of God pronouncing judgment that belongs to Him is not where I am comfortable being.

  117. “On May 15, 2008 at 9:56 am Randy Said:
    Faithful, I didnt mean for you to stop writting, all I ask was your name…”

    I just stepped away for a while. Believe it or not I have a life outside of this site. What an arogant statement from you

  118. ” On May 15, 2008 at 9:51 am Randy Said:
    Corey, do you believe that the church of Christ are the only ones goping to heaven, meaning no Baptist,or any denomination will be in heaven. This is the position that “faithful” holds and if you disagree with him, you will be considered lost too ( by faithful )”

    It’s what the bible says not me that you have an issue with. Please provide the quote from me saying the lie you have just presented. You can’t because I never said that. You expose yourself . Makes our job very easy. Keep it up , you’re doing great

  119. “Faithful, come on here with your real name. You guys say Jackie hides behind the walls – seems like you are doing this too.”

    I’ve asked you what it would change. You never presented any thing in response. Why would I give someone my name that I don’t trust. You’ve put words in my mouth already.

  120. Could the real problem be that some here have a problem with those in the thier own family ? Say a father who is a preacher who hit someone in stomach while healing them and they died ?and subconsciencly they see the gospel preachers as a father figure putting that resentment on them?

    faithful – cut this out. This has nothing to do with the discussion at hand, and is a very uncivil comment to make. Keep it civil.

    Nathan

  121. Randy said:
    “Corey, do you believe that the church of Christ are the only ones goping to heaven, meaning no Baptist,or any denomination will be in heaven. This is the position that “faithful” holds and if you disagree with him, you will be considered lost too ( by faithful )”

    Faithful said:
    “It’s what the bible says not me that you have an issue with. Please provide the quote from me saying the lie you have just presented. You can’t because I never said that. You expose yourself . Makes our job very easy. Keep it up , you’re doing great”

    faithful, do you agree or disagree with this statement:

    Members of the church of Christ are the only ones going to heaven, meaning no Baptist, or any member of any denomination will be in heaven.

  122. Glad to see you back faithful. Perhaps now you can answer the questions I asked you:

    please tell me what my sinful rebellious behavior is. Please show me where I have said something that wasn’t Biblically true. Please show me where we differ in doctrine.

  123. Faithful – You guys have stated on air more than once that no baptist or anyone belonging to a denomination will go to heaven…..come on now….at least be honest. I love how you know so much about the conversations Johnny and I had…you sound like Shawn at times and then at times like Johnny…hard to tell…or is it 🙂

  124. Shawn, I mean Faithful, your comments reagrding my dad are off a bit – I wouldnt repeat everything Johhny tells you, without first getting the facts firsthand

  125. Faithful, why must you guys play dirty and come across as combative? Is it really Christ-like to act the way you guys do? And, another thing, do you honestly believe you have reached some level of understanding, to such a degree, that you have the right to condemn others, who, in your mind haven’t understood things as you? I know the typical answer is “its not what I say, but what the bible says”. You seem to think YOUR views and interpretations are ALWAYS correct, and if we don’t adhere to YOUR views, we all are doomed. When we don’t, you become combative and resort to dirty tactics….like bringing up my dad and things. I once acted like you guys too, as did Jason, but, we regret ever acting this way – hopefully one day you will do.

    Those of us who have a robust conscience must accept as our own burden the tender scruples of weaker men, and not consider ourselves. Each of us must consider his neighbor and think what is for his good and will build up the common life…
    And may God, the source of all fortitude and encouragement, grant that you may agree with one another after the manner of Christ Jesus, so that with one mind and one voice you may praise the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. In a word, accept one another as Christ accepted us, to the glory of God. (Romans 15:1-2, 5-7

  126. Amen, Randy.

    I think it is because they cannot really handle the truth, or else they would not become so combative and stoop to ad hominem attacks. It is certainly something Jesus would never do.

  127. “On May 15, 2008 at 11:22 am Katherine Said:
    I think you are getting very warm, Randy. Come on, faithful-do you have something to hide or can you come out from the shadows?”

    And how do I know that your name is what you’re calling yourself? I see you all as the ones in the shadows.
    Why do you get to do something I can’t ? Just another attempt to change the subject on your part

  128. “On May 15, 2008 at 11:07 am Randy Said:
    Shawn, I mean Faithful, your comments reagrding my dad are off a bit – I wouldnt repeat everything Johhny tells you, without first getting the facts firsthand”

    Go ahead and fill us in then

  129. Let’s all just forget about Randy’s father and faithful’s true identity. These things are not relevant at the moment.

    faithful,

    Why don’t you answer Corey’s comment? And while you are at it, why don’t you respond to my comment?

    This would be a productive use of our time.

    Nathan

  130. ad hominem is just one of the dirty tactics…but the most common one. I wish faithful would take heed to this verse > “In a word, accept one another as Christ accepted us, to the glory of God.” Faithful, do you accept me as Christ accepted you?? Were you perfect, knowing all when Christ accepted you? Can’t you see how you are splitting up the body of Christ when you fail to follow this verse?

  131. “Members of the church of Christ are the only ones going to heaven, meaning no Baptist, or any member of any denomination will be in heaven.”

    I belive what the bible says. I read that His church is His body. I read that it says one body. I don’t ever read where the baptist church is ever mentioned in the bible. I read in baptist own writings that they were founded around 1600 . 1600 years too late. So you do the math. I also don’t believe that every one in the Lord’s church will make it. Only the one’s that remain faithful. My point is that don’t say I said something that I didn’t .

  132. Nope-not trying to change the subject, faithful-just trying to help you be honest. I have nothing to hide and I have a link to my site. I am far from hiding in the shadows, and am trying to bring you into the light. I am not asking you to do anything I have not done. What do you have to hide?

  133. ” On May 15, 2008 at 10:21 am faithful Said:
    Could the real problem be that some here have a problem with those in the thier own family ? Say a father who is a preacher who hit someone in stomach while healing them and they died ?and subconsciencly they see the gospel preachers as a father figure putting that resentment on them?

    faithful – cut this out. This has nothing to do with the discussion at hand, and is a very uncivil comment to make. Keep it civil.

    Nathan”

    Nathan this whole site is dedicated to singling out three men. I think the root cause of all of this is very much on topic. My question again is why do you all get do something I don’t get to do? You single them out ? Can’t I single someone out?

    By the way I never saw any answer either

  134. I guess that also means that you believe the institutional “Church of Christ” has no history in the Restoration movement, but is exactly like the church that was begun on Pentecost 2,000 years ago?

    Do you only believe that members of the CoC are part of that “one body” or could that include other faithful believers?

  135. Katherine I’m guessing you expect to to just take you at your word your being honest. What proof do I have? For all I know you’re really Randy or Nathan under a different name

  136. faithful, the difference is we are not singling their personal lives out-we are basing and talking about what we see because these 3 men have taken it upon themselves to have a TV show where anyone can watch and “ask questions”, and where they have chosen to also take it upon themselves to condemn others who do not believe exactly like-while using very dishonest tactics. What they are doing is not furthuring the cause of Christ, but only bringing shame on it. There is a HUGE difference in that and you bringing out personal information that is probably none of your business.

  137. faithful,

    Thanks for answering that question.

    My follow up:

    So, where was the “church of Christ” throughout the centuries, up until Alexander Campbell left the Presbyterian church to initiate the Restorationist movement in the 1800’s? I don’t know of much by way of historical reference to the “church of Christ” up until that point.

  138. “Do you only believe that members of the CoC are part of that “one body” or could that include other faithful believers?”

    Can they be faithful believers teaching another doctrine or gospel? I don’t think so.
    To try and come here and have me believe that the baptist , methodist , SDA , JW, Mormons, prsbyterians , etc. all teach the same plan is really dishonest of you. I’m not buying. None of them are in the message. If thier so unified why do they all meet seperately? You know that the apostolics won’t say the baptist are going to heaven etc.

  139. Well, ok-don’t take me at my word-but you can easily go to my site and see I am not a man 😉 I told you I have nothing to hide, and I don’t.

    For all I know, you are really Johnny posing as “faithful”, so we will just leave it at that.

  140. “So, where was the “church of Christ” throughout the centuries, up until Alexander Campbell left the Presbyterian church to initiate the Restorationist movement in the 1800’s? I don’t know of much by way of historical reference to the “church of Christ” up until that point”

    I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

    That means it won’t die. Thier were faithful christains all down through history. Can we read about every who has ever existed in the history books?

  141. faithful wrote;

    “Nathan this whole site is dedicated to singling out three men. I think the root cause of all of this is very much on topic. My question again is why do you all get do something I don’t get to do? You single them out ? Can’t I single someone out?”

    You can single out what someone says that is on topic. Discussing family members is not on-topic. Getting personal is not on-topic. If you’ll notice, when someone gets too personal talking about the three men, I ask them to stop. I just had to do that today.

    We’re discussing doctrine and methodology. Not personal lives. It all goes back to the notion of being civil. If you don’t like that rule, you needn’t feel beholden to post here.

    Conversely, if you see me allowing on the “other side” to post something uncivil, please feel free to call me on it. I don’t claim to be unbiased, and sometimes that can color my own blog editing. I do want to be fair.

    Thanks,
    Nathan

  142. Some times displacement is a sign of guilt – maybe his acting out is because he see’s some things that down deep he is considering to be true, but not what he was taught. Faithful, we all here will accept you as Christ did us – if you feel trapped, I know and understand, because this was just how Jason felt and others. You see things, but sweep them under the rug. Regardless of what you say about me and my family, I still love you as a brother. I just wish you could know the freedom in Christ and get away from the bondage you are in – and before you comment on the freedom in Christ, I do not mean freedom to sin….but freedom from the man-made rules and attitude of those holding you prisoner. I will always remember the first call from Preacher Jason, he said “ I felt like I have escaped from something”. I hope one day you can know that feeling too.

  143. “Faithful said:

    Can they be faithful believers teaching another doctrine or gospel? I don’t think so.
    To try and come here and have me believe that the baptist , methodist , SDA , JW, Mormons, prsbyterians , etc. all teach the same plan is really dishonest of you. I’m not buying. None of them are in the message. If thier so unified why do they all meet seperately? You know that the apostolics won’t say the baptist are going to heaven etc.

    Now you are trying to put words in my mouth. I did not specifically say anyone and I never said they are all teaching the same plan. I don’t really care who says the Baptists or whoever is or is not going to heaven-I only care what God thinks and the face that HE and HE ONLY does the saving and has the ability to declare who is in and who is out.

    If we are so unified, why do we all meet separately? That argument will never work. Of course it is not good that there are so many divisions and denominations-I don’t like it and I imagine God does not, either-but that doesn’t mean He has chosen ONE institutional church He will save. He will and has saved His ONE BODY, His church-made up of His PEOPLE. It cannot be limited to one institutional church, one denomination, one building or sign.

    I am not trying to get you to buy into anything except what God’s plan is and what I read in the Bible. Yes, there are many faithful believers outside of your sect that will be saved-and lucky for them, it is not up to the fact that you choose to accept that or not-it is up to our mighty and powerful loving God.

  144. Nathan are we discussing the doctrine and methodology of three specicic men? I think why some one would do this is a valid question. If we could get to the root of the issue would that not be a good thing. I thing that the way he would view his father in light of his fathers teachings it would shed some major light on what the real issue here is.

  145. Amen, Randy-Amen! I, too accept you as a brother, faithful and pray that you will one day really let the truth set you FREE so you will no longer be weighed down. Jesus said His yoke is easy and His burden is light-He just invites you to COME.

  146. faithful wrote:

    “I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

    That means it won’t die. Thier were faithful christains all down through history. Can we read about every who has ever existed in the history books?”

    First, of course I agree with Matthew 16:18. It is a wonderful promise that we have from the Lord that the church will prevail.

    Second, I’m not asking about everyone who existed. I’m asking for some proof that the “church of Christ” (as you see it) existed prior to Alexander Campbell.

    I know that hyperconservatives claim that Campbell didn’t “found” the “church of Christ” – but I’m just curious about what happened to it – when did it go “underground” and why did it resurface in the 1800’s? Why did it go “underground”? Or, is “underground” the wrong word? I’m just asking you (or Corey or whoever) to explain to us what happened.

  147. Faithful – If thier so unified why do they all meet seperately?

    Seems like some left Martinsville over some things – is that unity? Matter of fact, there are 25 sects within the church of Christ – let me guess, your three meetings places are the right ones and the rest are lost. James said Collinsville cofC are lost and Johnny said Chattam cofC are lost…and lets not foeget the disagreement Norm and Johnny had over a paticular passage – pretty heated meeting too. So much for your unity…if unity means all are in total agreement upon everything in the bible – no one will be saved. As I ask before, allow me to quiz “any” church of Christ on the book of Romans and lets see how many answer each question the same – then maybe you will understand that unity is “in Christ” not in our understanding or supposed knowlegde.

  148. On May 15, 2008 at 8:27 am faithful Said: Well I could ask you the same thing. The fact it that through these mens efforts and unwillingness of the denominational preachers in the area these men had led me to the truth. The reason the denominational preachers won’t defend what they teach is because they can not. The truth of the bible will withstand scrutiny . False preachers hare the light shined on what they teach and for a reason.

    From the way this sounds faithful, you were not raised c of c. Is that what you meant when you said “these men led me to the truth”? I have to say, and if I am wrong, I will apologize, but I’m going to call you out on that. I think you were raised c of c and you are being dishonest by saying you found the truth.

  149. Hi faithful,

    Will the third time be a charm? Can you now answer my questions?

    please tell me what my sinful rebellious behavior is. Please show me where I have said something that wasn’t Biblically true. Please show me where we differ in doctrine.

    If I have displayed sinful rebellious behavior I want to know what it is so I can change it.

  150. “Can they be faithful believers teaching another doctrine or gospel? I don’t think so.”

    Great job you just showed your true self.

    Ga 1:6 ¶ I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
    Ga 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
    Ga 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
    Ga 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

  151. Tell you what, faithful. If you want to discuss this with Randy, why don’t you email him and talk about it on your own nickel. Or, you can go and engage him about it at http://churchesofchrist.wordpress.com. That’s his blog.

    This is my blog. And on my blog, I don’t want us getting into family histories, or personal subjects. This courtesy extends to you as well. If you don’t want to say what “faithful”‘s real name is – that’s your call. I support you in maintaining your anonymity.

    I appreciate it if you would just let the matter drop. We’ve got enough to talk about here.

    Thanks,
    Nathan

  152. Guys,

    Let’s get off the subject of who faithful is, or what his background is. If he wants to share it, that’s his business. As I said to him, let’s stick to issues of doctrine and methodology.

    Thanks,
    Nathan

  153. Faithful said:

    “Can they be faithful believers teaching another doctrine or gospel? I don’t think so.”

    Great job you just showed your true self.

    Katherine says: I did not say that-I was quoting you. I responded to what you wrote-read again. I have been showing my true self-I still have nothing to hide.

  154. Nathan , fair enough . I didn’t know of the other site. I should have know you all wouldn’t be happy with just site trying to deminish His church

  155. Faithful – “Can they be faithful believers teaching another doctrine or gospel? I don’t think so.”

    Define Gospel. I know what you will say – you will say the entire word in the gospel. You know very well what Paul mean by another gospel – get the context please.

  156. No problem, and I am not denying that people have different doctrines-we ourselves in the churches of Christ believe different things, but I believe that all of us can focus on the one who has saved us: Jesus. It seems many have lost focus of that and have turned it into man-made religions and traditions that often trump the message of God.

  157. Nathan wrote: I’m just asking you (or Corey or whoever) to explain to us what happened.

    Well, golly Nathan, why would you lump me & faithful together? Is it because we’re basically saying the same things in different tones? faithful doesn’t seem to think so.

    That aside, I will attempt to answer your question. In 2 Thessalonians 2 the apostle Paul says that there will be a time of apostasy. That doesn’t mean that the church would cease to exist, but that most would fall away from the teachings he and the other apostles had delivered.

    To say that the true church had to go “underground” is not a bad way of putting it. You can go read history to see how the Catholic church treated those who didn’t want to follow their man-made doctrines. In some cases it resulted in death.

    Alexander Campbell was not the first man to try and lead people back to the Bible alone. In fact, there were churches of Christ in Europe over 200 years before Campbell. You can read about that here:
    http://churches-of-christ.ws/indextr.htm
    There are countless other documents showing that people were trying to follow the word of God alone many years before men like Campbell and Stone were ever born. More info is available here:
    http://www.padfield.com/1996/campbell.html

    As long as men tried to follow only God’s word and taught the truth therein the church of Christ has existed. Perhaps it wasn’t as public as it is today, but they existed nonetheless.

    I would say that the true church was forced “underground” by the persecution of the Catholic church and there it stayed until a time when religious freedoms existed to the point Christians could speak out without fear of losing their lives.

    I hope that is of some help in answering your questions.

  158. Faithful, nobody here is trying to diminish God’s church by any means-only trying to get away from man-made doctrines and beliefs and placing the focus on God and His body. I love my CofC family and do not want to see it ripped apart-which is exactly what these men are doing-creating more and more division and bringing shame and a very bad name on the idea of Christianity. That is what I boldly speak against, because I truly want all people to come to know God and be saved-which is what He wants, too.

    Claiming we have it all right, and having this “us vs. them” mentality is what we speak out against. God has called us to so much more than that-like loving our neighbors, respecting each other, and serving others. It is a waste of time to sit around and condemn other people and attack them. God is going to save who He is going to save-let’s leave it to Him, and go be His hands and feet to the world.

  159. Faithful – I heard the word, believed it, confessed Christ, repented of my sins and was baptized for the remission of those sins. That is what I did to obey the gospel.

    I am a member of Jesus’ church. If you want to know what the sign out front says, it says “Mars Hill church of Christ”.

    Now, please point out my sinful and rebellious behavior. You’ve said that I am sinful and rebellious. Either point out that behavior or unscriptural teaching or admit that you were dishonest.

  160. Faithful – The denominational churches do teach different doctrines and gospels though

    I see “the Gospel” pretty much preached the same by most denominations. The church of Christ have split over quite a few things you know…in other words denominated theirselves. I suggest you read some books from Cecil Hook, Carl Ketcherside and others who once held a Hypercon view, but repented and then wrote about the things we are talking about here. These men exsposed the very teaching they once taught. I suggest you read “twisted Scriptures” by Carl Ketcherside, he goes over the “gospel” and “doctrine” topic we are discussing and explains what it really is…

  161. well guys, I am signing off for today, I have other things in my head right now… I will check back in tonight. Take care

  162. faithful wrote:
    “I should have know you all wouldn’t be happy with just site trying to deminish His church…”

    Quick two questions, “faithful”. How many men are there broadcasting the hyper-conservative church of Christ doctrine into VA/NC? How many are being trained to do this in other places?

    I should have known that you wouldn’t be happy with just one man trying to propagate the limited hyperconservative “my way or the highway” doctrine in our community.

    Sorry. I had to say it.

    Can we stop these sorts of petty comments now and get about the business of having a serious discussion?

  163. “Quick two questions, “faithful”. How many men are there broadcasting the hyper-conservative church of Christ doctrine into VA/NC? How many are being trained to do this in other places? ”

    3 men broadcasting and money coming from faithful christains in different parts of country to pay for it

  164. Now, please point out my sinful and rebellious behavior. You’ve said that I am sinful and rebellious. Either point out that behavior or unscriptural teaching or admit that you were dishonest.

    Still waiting…

  165. To think what that money could really go for-sorry, but it must be said.

    Please answer Corey’s question, faithful-he is being very patient.

  166. its one thing to support men who are trying to win the lost, but quite another to support men who run around with cam-corders and crashing churches just to post them on TV.

    One more thing for those to attend the church of Christ at Johnnys place, be very careful what private information you share with them, because if you turn on them, they will throw it back in your face.

  167. I couldnt watch all of Johnnys youtube – he quotes out of context way to often. Regarding is take on Amos, I strongly disagree

    The verse in question is the first of these cause-and-effect steps. Two men walk together (effect) because they have made an appointment—or because they have agreed to meet (cause).

    The point being made is that Amos, only a herdsman and farmer, is prophesying (effect) because he has a very good reason—the Lord has spoken, calling him as a prophet (cause). If one can understand that two men will not be meeting in a remote airport terminal unless they have made arrangements, then he would be able to understand that Amos would not be prophesying if the Lord had not called him. A lion does not roar for no reason, nor are people frightened without a cause. Since I am prophesying, it is because the Lord has called me. This is what Amos is saying.[14]

    To illustrate the above scenario from Garrett with a personal illustration should help one to grasp rather quickly the teaching of Amos 3:3. In April 1988, this author (Dallas Burdette) agreed to meet Ervin Waters, who is from Texas, at the airport terminal in Birmingham, AL, on Sunday morning at 8:30am. We met, we talked, and we walked. Thus, our walking together (effect) came about as the result of our appointment previously made (cause). This story illustrates Amos’ saying, “Do two walk together unless they have made an appointment?”[15] This verse has nothing to do with one’s agreement, which is the way many writers employ this famous passage.

    In spite of the voluminous translations and commentaries, which shed tremendous insight as to the intent of Amos, nevertheless, there are still large numbers of trustworthy believers who still cite Amos 3:3 to justify castigation, censure, ostracism, and removal of the dissident from their fellowship. Even though Amos is quoted by many godly men/women to maintain the purity of the party, this misunderstanding, so it seems, is not a deliberate rejection of God’s Word, but rather, this lack of correct comprehension is simply an honest mistake of the heart. Many Christians are so used to reading the Bible as they have been taught by generations of interpreters that it is difficult to read the Bible without colored glasses. The innumerable traditions of the countless splinter groups have made it almost impossible, if not impossible, to read the Word of God accurately. One might also add that this is especially true with religious leaders—elders and preachers. The leaders of the numerous movements (at least twenty-five factions within the Churches of Christ) have a difficult time hearing God correctly. Justo L. Gonzalez expresses most concisely the necessity of weighing carefully one’s traditions, past or present. He writes:

    Without understanding the past, we are unable to understand ourselves, for in a sense the past still lives in us and influences who we are and how we are and how we understand the Christian message. The notion that we read the New Testament exactly as the early Christians did, without any weight of tradition coloring our interpretation, is an illusion. It is also a dangerous illusion, for it tends to absolutize our interpretation, confusing it with the Word of God. . . . Likewise, if we are to break free from an undue weight of tradition, we must begin by understanding what the tradition is, how we came to be where we are, and how particular elements in our past color our view of the present.[16]

    DICTIONARY MEANING OF “AGREED”
    Various Translations of Amos 3:3
    Before investigating more fully the unique interpretation placed upon Amos 3:3 by many Christians within the Churches of Christ, it would be beneficial to search more closely the scholars to determine the definition of the word du^y` (y`U~d, “agreed”). The sole question of the interpreter of Amos’ famous saying must be the intent of the author. What meaning did he intend to convey by the Hebrew word y`U~d. The English word agreed is from the Hebrew y`U~d, which means: “to fix upon (by agreement or appointment); by impl. To meet (at a stated time). . . gather (selves, together), meet (together), set (a time).”[17] The basic meaning is to make an “appointment,” not unanimity in understanding every Scripture with exactitude. Amos is dealing with two people making an appointment to walk together.

    Sometimes it is helpful to consult other translations in order to observe the particular flavor of a word. For instance, the New International Version renders this text: “Do two walk together unless they have agreed to do so?”[18] The New Revised Standard version translates the Hebrew: “Do two walk together unless they have made an appointment?”[19] The New Jerusalem Bible interprets the passage this way: “Do two people travel together unless they have agreed to do so?”[20] One more translation is in order to fully establish the meaning of the original intent of the Hebrew word y`U~d that is translated in the King James Version as “agreed.” The New American Standard Bible reads: “Do two men walk together unless they have made an appointment?”[21]

    The root duy (yUd) occurs four times in the book of Exodus and eighteen times in the Old Testament.[22] Armstrong, Busby, and Carr define du^y` (y*U^d) as “to meet at an appointed place” in Exodus 25:22; 29:42, 43;[23] in Joshua 11:5, “to assemble by appointment”;[24] in 2 Samuel 20:5, “to appoint”;[25] and in Amos 3:3, “to meet by appointment.”[26] Also, it is informative to observe what Holladay writes: “agree, have an appointment, Am 3.2.”[27]

  168. A very interesting video by a guy who was trained to be a CofC preacher, but discovered the holes in the doctrine along the way:

  169. corey,
    i am perplexed by your questions to faithful.
    if you are saved you dont need him to confirm it.
    im sure god does that with you on a daily basis.
    from reading your posts you seem to be a reasonable man.even if i dont agree with everything you say i can admire your position. lets talk about the wonders of god and his plan to save us before he even created us and his love for us. that is what we should be talking about. we should be giving glory to him, he requires it.
    i hope this dosent make you uncomfortable but i think we are closer to agreement than you may think………
    …….and im pentacostal.
    lee

  170. A couple of thoughts. First of all, I congratulate this individual for making a video that argues with logic and is well made. He has applied his creativity in a productive fashion and he was able to permit the viewer to understand the legitimacy of his arguments. I did not agree with his conclusions, however, I clearly understood how he arrived at them. This is a fine example of “how to” make a YouTube video. I’ve made dozens, some good, some not so good. Well done.

    Secondly, allow me to put forth this illustration. A couple of years ago I taught a Wednesday night devotional. I said, please point to my wife. 90% of the people in the room pointed to my wife, Jamie.

    I then said, “Very good. What is her name?” 90% replied, “Jamie.”

    I needed to do it this way because I had to keep in mind that not everyone there would necessarily be able to identify her or know her name, but now, everyone who was mentally capable of it understood her identity.

    “Are there any other women who attend this church named Jamie?”

    “Yes.”

    “Who is my bride?”

    They pointed at my wife.

    “Characteristics of Jamie Goldtrap: blond hair, green eyes, sweet disposition. Are there any other women here who have either blond hair or green eyes or a sweet disposition?”

    “Yes.”

    “Who is my bride?”

    They pointed at my wife.

    “What if every woman in this congregation dyed their hair blond and wore green contacts? In that case, who is my bride?”

    They pointed at my wife.

    “What if… Jamie Smith changed her last name to Jamie Goldtrap? In that case, who would be my bride?”

    They pointed at my wife.

    “What if every woman in this room claimed to be my wife? What if they begged and cried and demanded that they were the actual Jamie Goldtrap? In that case, who is my bride?”

    They pointed at my wife.

    “Correct. You know me – you know my bride because we are inseparable. You cannot really know me, you can walk with me or be my friend without knowing my bride. I only have one wife. As a matter of fact, she insist that I remain loyal to her and I ask for her to do the same. Why? Because we love each other. I have a relationship with her that goes deeper than any friendship I can have with any other woman in this room. My bride and I are intimate. I hold her close and share with her my passion as well as my hopes and fears because she is my bride.

    Friends, the Church is the Bride of Christ. No matter what man may say, like me, He only has one bride. Know Him – know His bride. Once you know Him and His bride, you will be able to recognize those who are not His bride and you will seek His bride even if it costs you every you own because nothing, nothing can replace that intimate relationship.”

  171. Jason,

    First, welcome to the blog. I appreciate your visit, and that you took the time to comment.

    Second, your comment raises the issue – who is the church? Is it the ones who have “church of Christ” on their letterhead, or does it go deeper than that?

    My opinion – upon reading Scripture – is that it goes deeper. In the New Testament, “church” is the translation of the Greek word (pronounced) ek-klay-see-ah, meaning “a gathering of those called”. That means that the Bride of Christ is made up of people who have been called into Christ – and there is no reason to believe that the “called” will all come from only those churches that are labeled a certain way. In Scripture, the church was referred to by several different names. Why would that have changed?

    I don’t know exactly where you are coming from – whether you agree or disagree. But, I wanted to throw it out there.

    Thanks again for the visit and the comment, and I invite you to participate further.

    Blessings,
    Nathan

  172. Just had to come in and Amen what you just wrote, Nathan 🙂 You are right on-I pray that more people can take off their sectarian glasses and see this wonderful truth.

  173. The video says we don’t know what God expects? Incredible. I thought that was what the bible was for . Basically he’s saying a person can follow another gospel and be ok with God. Why even bother reading the bible then? Just make up what feels good and go with that. Believe that if you wish. I’ll take the bible and it’s plan

  174. faithful – here you are again, yet you won’t answer my questions. In case you missed the first 4 times I posted them, here they are again:

    please tell me what my sinful rebellious behavior is. Please show me where I have said something that wasn’t Biblically true. Please show me where we differ in doctrine.

    You have made a charge against me. You owe me an explanation. If you continue to leave these unanswered then you are a slanderer. If you cannot show me where my beliefs are sinful and rebellious then you have lied.

    I’m still waiting on you to answer. I’m not going to just let this drop. Those are serious statements against me that you have made.

  175. That is not what he says, and not what we believe. You have somehow missed the point again. I follow the Bible and it’s plan-I don’t do what I wish, though sometimes I would like to! But, I am motivated out of my love for God to follow His will and plan and be faithful to Him. I will always, always follow God and His Word over what ANY man tells me to believe and over any doctrine that goes directly against the Word of God-even if people do not agree. It only matters what God says.

  176. faithful,

    Corey has asked you several times to answer his question. Before you post about anything else, I think you should honor his request. You have leveled a pretty serious charge at a person who claims to be on the same page as you, and you owe him an answer.

    We would all appreciate it if you would either stand behind your words and explain it to him, or make a retraction and an apology if you realize that you misspoke.

    Thank you,
    Nathan

  177. Cory is does the church of Christ include the baptist churhc?

    When you read the things you said that Johnny said did you write to him or communicate with him? What did he say ?

  178. Katherine how can you say you go by the bible? Ask your preacher if he would ever tell some one what Peter said. To repent and be baptized for the remission of sins

  179. Here is one Cory

    If your congregation, or one you have been to, refuses communion then that is wrong. To say all (or even many or most) churches of Christ do the same is completely wrong.

  180. faithful – no, the church of Christ does not include the Baptist church. The Baptist church teaches the Bible plus Baptist doctrine. Therefore it cannot be the church of Christ until it leaves behind the Baptist doctrines and follows only God’s word.

    No, I didn’t communicate with Johnny. I didn’t have to – he came here. He acknowledged that Lee was “looking for a fight”, but he conveniently neglected to say whether or not what Lee said was true. Why not call Lee out for lying if that is what he did? Isn’t that what Johnny loves to do – point out lies and false teachings? Or did he not refute it because it was true?

    As to his bragging, I don’t have to speculate – it was right there for the whole world to see.

  181. faithful wrote:
    Here is one Cory

    If your congregation, or one you have been to, refuses communion then that is wrong. To say all (or even many or most) churches of Christ do the same is completely wrong.

    How is that sinful or rebellious?

  182. Cory

    Well, ol’ Johnny is the exception, not the rule.

    Do you think even he personally questions every person in attendance before they take of the Lord’s Supper?

    Actually, I shouldn’t ask that. He and Diotrephes seem to be close brethren.

    We explain during the sevice why the lost will not be served and if we ae unsure about who that would be we do ask.

  183. Cory

    The whole issue of someone refusing the Lord’s Supper seems insane to me.

    At my congregation we have two people who are Baptists, but because of their spouses they usually attend worship with us. I think they’ve come to love taking the Lord’s Supper each Sunday.

    If they weren’t there on Sunday morning they will take it on Sunday night, even if they’re the only person to take it! They are never refused communion. In fact, I see it as a small sign of progress that they are willing to follow the instructions to partake of the Lord’s Supper, even if they still cling to some denominational beliefs.

    If you, me or someone else is taking the Lord’s Supper in the wrong manner then we are eating and drinking damnation unto OURSELVES. It is between the individual and God to sort out whether it was done in an unworthy manner, not Johnny Robertson.

    And again why should Johnny participate in the thier sin or the rest of us for that fact

  184. “No, I didn’t communicate with Johnny. I didn’t have to – he came here.”

    REALLY, I thought the bible says that if you had an issue with a brother to go to him and communicate it?

  185. “Katherine how can you say you go by the bible? Ask your preacher if he would ever tell some one what Peter said. To repent and be baptized for the remission of sins”

    What in the world are you talking about, “faithful”? I can say I go by the Bible because I DO go by the Bible. What do you mean “ask my preacher” I don’t follow preachers or men-I follow Jesus-it is as simple as that.

    Can you EVEN see Christ any more in your message? I can not.

  186. ” On May 21, 2008 at 3:19 pm coreydavis Said:
    faithful wrote:
    Here is one Cory

    If your congregation, or one you have been to, refuses communion then that is wrong. To say all (or even many or most) churches of Christ do the same is completely wrong.

    How is that sinful or rebellious?”

    You are implying to them that they are in the body. You are sending the message that you are in fellowship with them

  187. faithful wrote:
    We explain during the sevice why the lost will not be served and if we ae unsure about who that would be we do ask.

    You have no scripture to back that action up. You are going beyond the word of God to do so.

    faithful wrote:
    And again why should Johnny participate in the thier sin or the rest of us for that fact

    1 Corinthians 11:28 – But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup.

    Now, according to Paul, who is to do the examining? You? Johnny Robertson? Or is it as the inspired apostle wrote – that each individual is to examine himself?

  188. Johnny’s tactics are deceptive and arrogant, yet he doesn’t think he has to humble himself and always thinks he is right-EVEN when the Bible proves him wrong.

  189. faithful wrote:
    REALLY, I thought the bible says that if you had an issue with a brother to go to him and communicate it?

    Is that what you did with me? Or did you make an accusation and not make any attempt to back it up for days?

  190. Katherine the reason I say that is because he will say he wouldn’t tell them that. Your in fellowship with them . Paul said to follow him as he follows Christ. You want us to believe that you don’t listen to them? Really? IT should send up a red flag but you have shown me you will be convinced of what you want to be convinced

  191. “Faithful”, Johnny, et al…

    YOU ARE NOT GOD!!!!!!!!! Quit judging who is in or out of the body of Christ-GOD adds PEOPLE to His church, and there is not ONE thing you can do about it. It is almost like you don’t WANT people to be saved, although God does!!!

    I hope you make it to heaven to be utterly surprised by all who will join you there-many of those who you chose to reject as your brothers and sisters on earth.

  192. “On May 21, 2008 at 3:26 pm Katherine Said:
    Johnny’s tactics are deceptive and arrogant, yet he doesn’t think he has to humble himself and always thinks he is right-EVEN when the Bible proves him wrong.”

    Where has the bible proved him wrong? He reads the bible to people . So it’s the book they don’t like. It just makes you mad to be told your in a church not in the bible

  193. You’re only doing it now because you’ve been shamed into doing so. I thought you were supposed to go to your brother in private first. Did you do that?

  194. On May 21, 2008 at 3:29 pm Katherine Said:
    “Faithful”, Johnny, et al…

    “YOU ARE NOT GOD!!!!!!!!! Quit judging who is in or out of the body of Christ-GOD adds PEOPLE to His church, and there is not ONE thing you can do about it. It is almost like you don’t WANT people to be saved, although God does!!!

    I hope you make it to heaven to be utterly surprised by all who will join you there-many of those who you chose to reject as your brothers and sisters on earth.”

    We ‘ve been over this before. The baptist church does not follow the bible nor is in the bible. The bible says that if we read that we can understand. You should try it. I’d rather you get mad now and have a chance to repent for your false religion. Once you get to Him it will be too late.

  195. “Katherine the reason I say that is because he will say he wouldn’t tell them that. Your in fellowship with them . Paul said to follow him as he follows Christ. You want us to believe that you don’t listen to them? Really? IT should send up a red flag but you have shown me you will be convinced of what you want to be convinced”

    What are you talking about? Who is “he” and “them”? You do realize that I am a member of the “Church of Christ”, right? I DO follow Christ, and Christ only. If a preacher, or minister, or anyone preaches something different than Christ-I will not follow them!! REALLY! I am only convinced of what I read in the Bible and what God says, not what I want to be convinced. That is actually what you are doing-you only want to see, read, and believe what you WANT to believe-even if that stands directly against what the Bible claims.

  196. ” On May 21, 2008 at 3:30 pm coreydavis Said:
    You’re only doing it now because you’ve been shamed into doing so. I thought you were supposed to go to your brother in private first. Did you do that?

    No sir. If you offend in public I don’t have to go to you in private! You did your offense in public so it ‘s just fine to address you in public. You need to study

  197. Johnny also did his offenses in public so it’s just fine to address him in public.

    I notice that you won’t address 1 Corinthians 11:28 and your unscriptural practice of saying who can and cannot partake of it. Do you also tell the lost not to sing? Not to listen to the prayers? Not to give their money? Not to listen to the sermon? Are they not allowed in until you’ve converted them? Please fill me in on all of the extra rules you’ve added to the Bible.

  198. “Faithful”, for heaven’s sake-I have never claimed to be a member of the Baptist church-get your facts straight!! I don’t have a false religion. I understand what the CHURCH, the body of Christ is-YOU DO NOT. You have been misled (like many others) to boil it down to a physical church on earth-which it is not. Being in the Church of Christ, Baptist, Methodist, or any other denomination is not the same as being in the entire CHURCH of Christ-which is not boiled down to a sign outside your building, but is because you have been saved by the blood of Jesus Christ. We are disciples of Christ-and entering a building or claiming fellowship with certain groups of believers will not change that-NO MATTER HOW BAD YOU WANT IT TO BE TRUE!!!! God is God. Let Him be God…stop trying to play God. You will be judged even harsher for trying to play God.

    The church of Christ is made up of all of God’s faithful believers all over the world. I choose to accept them as my brothers and sisters IN Christ because THEY ARE IN HIM. You have the choice to do the same, but you have chosen not to-AND you have chosen to judge, attack, and condemn-which stands directly against what God has called us to.

  199. Corey,

    If you dont mind, I would like to jump into the fray again by providing an answer to your question to faithful:

    “I notice that you won’t address 1 Corinthians 11:28 and your unscriptural practice of saying who can and cannot partake of it. ”

    I know that you understand like I do that Paul was writing to christians there, so it logically follows that non-believers are not the concern of the warning that Paul gives. Why would a non-believer need to examine how they partake the Lord’s supper when they aren’t in the kingdom to begin with? But for the sake of argument if you say that Paul was talking to non-believers as well, then everytime they take the Lord’s supper they would be in fact drinking damnation since they haven’t been obedient and added to the kingdom; even if their intention is good, as you mentioned about your baptist friends who visit the Mars Hill congregation. This in my mind is a big deal since Jesus said the Lord’s supper is to be taken “in the Kingdom” – Lk. 22:16.

    Would you at least agree with that much?

    Joey

  200. Joey, you seem to know who “faithful” is, and I find it odd that more and more I am seeing you guys on this blog. You are a member of Martinsville church of Christ, where Johnny preaches. I will sit back for now…

  201. Randy,

    You sure make a bad habit of surmizing. I have no idea who faithful is. Keep it up, you are doing good.

    Joey

  202. Randy,

    This is why you get the resistance you do. I’m participating in an honest discussion with a brother and you chime in like you can read my mind. You can’t be pleased can you?

    Joey

  203. Joey, you dont need to be combative with me, its all good…If you have read the blog, I and others come in on each others comments quite often, thats the blog world my friend. I have nothing agianst you guys at all – I just happen to not agree with everything you believe.

  204. Joey, youre taking me all wrong – i dont mean to come seem combative and far as me jumping in on your conversations, thats the blog world my friend. We all do that on here, go back and look.

  205. Randy,

    So what’s that got to do with you accusing me of siding with faithful or whatever? The existence (sp?) of blog culture means I should just let you evil surmize on me? Disagreeing with me is different from inventing imaginary scenarios.

    When I am trying to initiate a neutral converstaion with someone then suddenly I am ‘conspiring’ or whatever. I don’t treat you that way. Whether we are ‘humble and kind’ in your opinion or being ‘pests’ you all arent pleased either way. Thats why I am on the defensive.

    I gotta go for now. Ill catch you later on or tomorrow

    Joey

  206. honestly Joey, I dont mean to give you a hard time. Its hard to convey feeling and things on here and easy to misread what someone means. I have nothing aginst you at all – I just happen to disagree with some things you believe and in your mind, that makes me “out of Christ” seeing I dont understand things as you do. I know you at this point will say its not about what you say but what the bible says, I can say that as well, but it boils down to what we understand the sciptures to teach and you mark me off for my views and I dont you

  207. On May 21, 2008 at 3:40 pm Katherine Said:
    “Katherine what is the name of the church?”

    “What church”

    The one you are a member of , isn’t that what we were discussing?

  208. Randy –

    “Joey, youre taking me all wrong – i dont mean to come seem combative and far as me jumping in on your conversations”

    Fair enough. Let’s move on.

    Joey

  209. “Johnny also did his offenses in public so it’s just fine to address him in public.”

    But you haven’t . He isn’t here. I came right away with your warning and you were here to get it. Johnny is not here! Big diference

  210. boy, Joey, you have really taken me the worng way. But I do find it odd you can say those things to em when you know Johnny and others act a lot worse and I know Jason has even talked with you about things.

    from Joey: When I am trying to initiate a neutral converstaion with someone then suddenly I am ‘conspiring’ or whatever. I don’t treat you that way.

    You have me totally wrong Joey, I do find is hard to believe you dont know who faithful is, but I will take you at your word. Another thing, you know Johhny and crew treat people far worse than

  211. ” notice that you won’t address 1 Corinthians 11:28 and your unscriptural practice of saying who can and cannot partake of it. Do you also tell the lost not to sing? Not to listen to the prayers? Not to give their money? Not to listen to the sermon? Are they not allowed in until you’ve converted them? Please fill me in on all of the extra rules you’ve added to the Bible.”

    Ypou sure are full of yourself thinking I was still here to address this. I do have other people to deal with besides you. Joey already addressed it by now

  212. On May 21, 2008 at 4:51 pm faithful Said:

    On May 21, 2008 at 3:40 pm Katherine Said:
    “Katherine what is the name of the church?”

    “What church”

    The one you are a member of , isn’t that what we were discussing?

    Katherine now says…

    “Faithful”, pay attention because I have answered this many times-I am a member of an institutional “church of Christ”, while I am also a member of the body of Christ-which you still do not seem to understand the difference between.

    You also said:

    “I will not treat people who are not in Christ like they have obeyed.”

    I am not asking you to and I understand that-but I think your definition of who is in Christ and Christ’s definition of who is in Him or TWO different things. It seems like you will hardly let anyone in, but the REALLY Good News is it is not up to you-it is up to God, and you need to leave it up to Him!!

    How do you think you are supposed to treat those who you do not believe are in Christ-with love or contempt?

  213. Randy,

    “But I do find it odd you can say those things to em…”

    “…I know Jason has even talked with you about things”

    I don’t know what you are referring to? I’m curious to know though.

    I’ll read youre response later tonight. We are about to start Bible study so this is definately my last post until later.

    Joey

  214. Joey,

    Yes, Paul was talking to Christians. And yes, those who are lost and taking the Lord’s Supper are possibly eating and drinking damnation upon themselves. The thing is, it is between them and the Lord. There is nothing in scriptures that says we need to “police” communion.

    I go back to the questions I posed to faithful:
    Do you tell the lost not to sing? Not to listen to the prayers? Not to give their money? Not to listen to the sermon? Are they not allowed in until you’ve converted them?

    See where we can go if we start telling people what elements of worship they can participate in. This is completely different from saying to someone “you’re my brother” when they aren’t. This is VERY different from letting someone come in and begin to teach. I’ve said before, we ARE told to keep out false teachers, and that would require us to question and examine would-be teachers.

    I won’t be able to post again until late tomorrow. Please don’t think I’m ignoring anyone.

  215. “im in christs church” …….”so am i”………
    “me too” “dont you believe me?”
    well i dont quite know what to say about this love fest.
    so, coc members in, the rest of us out…..that about right? i will say that jesus christ is lord to the glory of god. you all might want to do the same……..
    ill just be over here working out my own salvation with fear and trembling.
    you know how those pentacostals are.
    lee

  216. Corey,

    Ill give you an answer about singing, praying. et. al. if you will tell me what your answer would be to the following –

    Would you voluntarily serve a brother/sister who is out of fellowship with the Lord and has been withdrawn from?

    Joey

  217. Lee said:

    “so, coc members in, the rest of us out…..that about right?”

    I absolutely do not believe that, and if you will look through my posts you will know I have not claimed that-but stand against that kind of idea.

    “i will say that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God”

    (with a few capitalizations)-I completely agree! AMEN!

  218. Woah. Step away for a few hours and the place explodes with comments.

    Joey – glad to have you back again. Understand that the tension in the blog has originated with faithful coming on, making accusations against a fellow hypercon CofC person (Corey), and then refusing to back up those accusations. It looks like things are on the road to be explained now, but that conversation is not over.

    Please feel free to hang out, and to tell your friends to come visit as well.

    Lee – Yeah, I know what you mean. It seems like everyone is trying to establish their comfort zones in relation to what the hypercon CofC doctrine might be. I think Katherine, Rick and Katie have been trying to do this to demonstrate to the Robertson/Oldsfield/Fields acolytes that while the way is narrow, it’s not quite as narrow as they think. AND to remind them that our reason for the faith we profess is Christ alone.

    Anyway, I appreciate that for the most part, people have been behaving quite well through all of this. Let’s keep up that civility as we discuss!

  219. “We also tell the visitors we don’t want thier money. That too is for the saints”

    You actually tell them “We don’t want your money” or inform them they are not required to give?

  220. Incidentally, we set a record yesterday for the most hits ever in a single day on this blog. Nearly 800 hits. Not bad!

    Let’s keep the conversations rolling!

    Nathan
    “Mr. Answer”

  221. From Faithful: On May 21, 2008 at 8:29 pm faithful Said: We also tell the visitors we don’t want thier money. That too is for the saints

    I dont know who “faithful” is but I can tell you that Johnny and the people at Martinsville fo not take money from visiting people – they do do go to extremes thoughy to make them welcome, even putting a TV and reciever down stairs so that I could take my triplets down there and still watch the preaching.

  222. From Katherine: On May 21, 2008 at 9:24 pm Katherine Said: You actually tell them “We don’t want your money” or inform them they are not required to give?

    From Randy: I can say that the guys here actually do tell nonmembers not to give.

  223. One of my friends just called me – his dad died last night, please remeber Eric Cochran and his family in your prayers

  224. Answering:

    Who is making the unfounded comments , you? I have brought the post to him. So you need to go back and read so that you don’t continue to look foolish.

  225. Joey, I think I probably have stated too much about Jason already and will not go into detail about other things he and I have talked about. However, I will say that his last sermon and last TV show was a result of he and I talking. We were discussing the Lords Supper and the church of Christ position-being it must be taken each Sunday. He stuck to the church of Christ position until the end, but one week later he and I talked and he confessed that there was no real evidence and the proof was weak. Not only Jason seen this, but many within the churches of Christ know the weakness of this and have changed their position. There are many with courage to admit they are wrong and change, but some will never admit this…even when they see clearly the weakness in the position they take. No where is it even suggested that if I wanted to take the Lords Supper say each Sunday and each Thursday …that it would be sinful to take it two days a week…how absurd to believe one is sinning when he is honoring Christ….btw, many churches of Christ have the Lords Supper twice on Sundays, to make sure they get everybody, would it be sin if I took the Lords supper 7 times every Sunday??

  226. faithful,

    I said that a conversation had begun, but that it wasn’t over. Is that unfounded? I think that it is accurate.

    Why don’t we let Corey answer that question. Corey, do you feel that faithful has explained his accusations in a way that you feel to be adequate?

    If you feel that he has, Corey, I will gladly apologize to faithful for making “unfounded comments”.

    Mr. Answer

  227. Run and jump and you will cross the creek
    Question: what must I do to cross the creek?

    Believe and be baptized and you shall be saved
    Question: what must I do to be saved?

    Read a book on creation and write a paper on creation and you will be graded.
    Question: To be graded, what must I do?

    Repent and be baptized, for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit
    Question: What must I do to receive the gift if the Holy Spirit

  228. Randy said: There are many with courage to admit they are wrong and change, but some will never admit this…even when they see clearly the weakness in the position they take.

    This does take a tremendous amount of courage. To really read the scriptures and have the courage to study it without the dogma you’ve been taught takes real strength. I admire those on here that are expressing that courage everyday and who try to reason with their brethern. I did not have the courage to stay and try to change things, but I still love the people in the C of C (even the hyercons!) and so want them to give up this heavy burden of legalism and narrow dogma. I never really understood what Jesus said about the burden being light as I was really taught that it is heavy and hard until I left this faith sadly.

  229. Hey Gail, I have seen many people under the bondage you speak about – and Jesus didn’t come that we take our pet hermeneutics ( CENI ) and our so called “speak where the bible speaks” and then build laws upon people and judging others who don’t quite agree with us. I do believe there is a connection between faith and baptism and you wont see it refuted on here….but you also wont see me on here call others non-believers or lost and hell bound because they don’t see baptism as I….

  230. Randy,

    I was simply asking what you meant when you said Jason had discussed some particular thing with me. I never discussed with Jason anything about the Lord’s supper in the form of what you mentioned above, so I still dont know what you are referring to.

    Just to add to what you were saying about Jason’s position after he left: I would pose the same question to him about unfaithful brethren that I did to Corey in the post above. If Jason were to give the honest answer, he would say you shouldn’t serve disobedient brethren the Lord’s supper. No where is there a command not to serve unfaithful brethren; its understood to violate another command with regard to the unfaithful in 1 Cor 5:11 –

    “1Cor 5:11
    But now I have written unto you not to keep company…”

    How could you not serve the disobedient brother/sister but serve the disobedient unbeliever?

    Joey

  231. I am on the same page with you Joey, I just got carried away with the conversation and took it another direction. Let me ask a question Joey– Can a singular example override or restrict a command given by Jesus Christ and repeated by an inspired apostle? In other words, which bears more weight — a command of our Lord or an example of mere men (about which many assumptions must be made)? Which has more authority — a precept of deity or a practice of men? Jesus said “as often as” meaning anytime you so choose.

    Some suggest the Scriptures specify the day the Lord’s Supper is to be observed, and that day is Sunday. This is perceived as a matter of faith, and those who have embraced this perception will actually go so far as to question the very salvation of those who would suggest any other day as acceptable to God. They further declare it must be observed every Sunday, without fail. To do otherwise is declared soul-damning SIN. They will refuse fellowship with all who differ with them on this issue. Those who do not observe the Lord’s Supper every Sunday, and only on Sunday, are “godless apostates bound for hell – and this is why I think you guys hold a legalistic view of the Lords Supper.

    The doctrine of Sunday ONLY observance is derived from deductions made from a singular text by those who perceive the New Covenant writings as being a Law Book filled with proof texts. “And on the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread…” (Acts 20:7). Well, there you have it . Based on these few words an entire theology has been built.

  232. Joey, It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to perceive that numerous assumptions must be made for one to arrive at the position that this passage commands Sunday only, and every Sunday, observance of the Lord’s Supper.

    Nothing is said in the passage about the practice of Troas either before or after this particular weekend. Was the first day of the week the ONLY day these disciples observed the Lord’s Supper? We don’t know. Did they observe it every first day of the week without fail? We don’t know. Was this the practice in every other congregation on the face of the earth at this time? We don’t know from the biblical text, although history reveals it was not. But there is even more that needs to be considered here. Where in the NT writings does it state that the way Troas observed the Lord’s Supper with regard to the matter of frequency (assuming we even truly know conclusively the exact nature of their regular practice) is the way ALL disciples the world over MUST observe the Lord’s Supper until the end of time? Where does it ever state in the sacred Scriptures that our salvation today, and even our fellowship with one another, is dependent upon US observing this memorial feast in exactly the same manner as THEY did in ancient Troas? In other words, is the singular example of Troas forever binding upon all disciples the world over until the end of time? If the answer is “yes,” then where in Scripture is such a demand ever specifically stated by our Lord?

  233. Randy,

    As far as frequency, it doesnt ‘take a rocket scientist’ to infer what God implies.

    I wish you would come out with your position instead of just trying to unfound ours.

    Joey

  234. No I honestly dont. If you are saying that there is no frequency and it can be taken anytime, where is your authority for that?

    All I see is you unfounding Acts 20:7 as if that is the only place we derive authority from. You have yet to give scriptural examples to support whatever your position is – so no, I don’t see clearly.

    Joey

  235. You ask where I stand-what my position is-depends on what the topic is. Far as the Lords Supper, I disagree with the “Sunday Only” doctrine that you believe. Could I take the Lords Supper each Sunday and each Thursday? Or would me honoring Christ two days a week be sinful, if so, why? It also seems that many were meeting daily “breaking bread”-but here we must say, this was just a common meal, that way we can bind the Sunday only doctrine on people as if it was some law they were keeping.

    Again Jesus said “as often as”

  236. Joey,

    “what God implies”?!? Really?

    That’s about as close as I’ve heard a hyperconservative “Church of Christ” proponent coming to admitting that the whole mandatory Lord’s Supper each first day of the week is based on an interpretation, and not an actual Biblical command.

    “what God implies”. Wow. That’s a pretty staggering assumption – especially for a subject that our three hosts use to condemn people as lost.

  237. Joey, your position is weak and many within the church of Christ know this too – as Jason. Anyways, my lunch is over, ttyl

  238. Can a singular example override or restrict a command given by Jesus Christ and repeated by an inspired apostle? In other words, which bears more weight — a command of our Lord or an example of mere men (about which many assumptions must be made)? Which has more authority — a precept of deity or a practice of men? Jesus said “as often as” meaning anytime you so choose.

    Joey, could I take the Lords Supper each Sunday and each Thursday? Or would me honoring Christ two days a week be sinful, if so, why?

  239. The above is what I’m talking about. You only disagree and never affirm anything.

    You would have argued keeping the Sabbath in the same fashion. The Law of Moses didnt even say ‘as oft’ and it was understood to mean every Sabbath. But I’m expecting you to dismiss that statement.

  240. Joey, I consider Jason a very bright young man, but just as you, he held to church of Christ doctrine—but down deep he had other thoughts and swept them under the rug ( his words ) but, after he got out, he acknowledged how weak the view of “Sunday Only” is…not just him, there are many church of Christ preachers who don’t adhere to the Lords Supper “Sunday Only”.

    I will not even comment on your Moses comment, boy thats way off though…later dude

  241. you still will not say its a sin to honor Christ twice a weak….why not if you really believe what you say you do about Sunday Only

  242. Nathan,

    You wrote:
    “That’s about as close as I’ve heard a hyperconservative “Church of Christ” proponent coming to admitting that the whole mandatory Lord’s Supper each first day of the week is based on an interpretation, and not an actual Biblical command.”

    I was referring to what Randy himself quoted – “as oft as” implies there is an expected frequency.

    Who ever said that inferring something is taking liberty with the scripture? Surely God expects us to use common rules of languange.

    I guess I’m supposed to hold my hands up and say ‘oops, you got me’?

  243. Randy,

    My position is weak? That’s pitiful.

    You are the one who won’t affirm your stance with any scriptural support but you see fit to call our position weak. Look through all of the recent posts you gave and find any reference to scriptural authority you gave for whatever your position is besides 1 Cor 11:25,26. So if you want to compare apples to apples, that’s no stronger than our supposed Acts 20:7 only argument. Im not trying to be smart, I’m just sorting the playing field.

    To quote you:
    “Which has more authority — a precept of deity or a practice of men? Jesus said “as often as” meaning anytime you so choose.”

    If you affirm there is a frequency that is not relegated to Sunday then tell me who determines the frequency? If you say a man, then you are the one who places a practice of men above or at least equal to a precept of deity. If you fire back and say that I am inventing your position then I agree, because I still dont know how you determine what to do.

    “Joey, could I take the Lords Supper each Sunday and each Thursday? Or would me honoring Christ two days a week be sinful, if so, why?”

    You already know my position, otherwise why would you be disagreeing with me? I see no point in you even asking unless you intend for it to be a loaded question.

    Lastly – I never implied Jason was dumb. He’s not here to discuss so how about lets keep it to me and you.

    Joey

  244. Nathan,

    Can you implement a quoting applet or something to make it more organized to quote someone? All these quotes blend to easily with the person doing the quoting.

    oey

  245. Joey:

    And on the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread
    “did we bread every first day of the week”

    And on the first day of the week, when we gathered to shoot pool
    “did we shoot pool every first of the week”

    And on the first day of the week, when we met for lunch
    “did we meet every first day of the week”

    And on the first day of the week, when we went to the store
    “ did we go to the store every first day of the week”

    And on the first day of the week, when we camped at Goose point
    “did we camp at Goose Point every first day of the week”

    This is so easy to see Joey-it’s a recorded event that took place, not something you take and bind on people as Law.

  246. Joey,

    No, I don’t expect you to hold up your hands and say “oops, you got me.”

    Explain how the “common rules of language” support your thesis regarding the Scriptural necessity for weekly observation of the Lord’s Supper.

    Are you suggesting that the “I” in CENI now stands for “implied”? And note that it is not God doing the implying, it is you and others who support your doctrinal stance. Thus, it is strictly your interpretation, and hyperconservative “Church of Christ” folks have no scriptural basis for condemning others for not following an implication.

  247. Joey, your putting words in my mouth-I never was implying you considered Jason dumb, that wasn’t what I meant at all…and you still are taking me as being unkind when I am not….I will pick this back up tonight…

    PS..How is Johnny doing after his surgery? He told me he had surgery-I hope everything is ok. Well its time for me to sign off, really this time

  248. To quote someone, you have to do the little arrow keys that look like parenthesis above the comma and the period with the word “blockquote” in between before the quote and this: /blockquote between the same arrows after the quote.

    Sorry it is such a verbose example, but if I try to show you, it will do it rather than show what I write.

    Also, you italicize by doing the same thing with “em” between the arrows, and you bold with “strong” between the arrows.

    Feel free to test it out.

  249. What kid of surgery did Johnny have? If any of you guys who see him regularly could post an update, that would be great. Meanwhile, tell him that we’re praying for his healing! Seriously.

  250. Nathan,

    You –> “Are you suggesting that the “I” in CENI now stands for “implied”?”

    NI – necessary inference. I know what it means. I should have said that frequency is implied by the reader. So you are correct, I used ‘imply’ incorrectly. Bad habit. Nevertheless:

    “Imply – to indicate or suggest without being explicitly stated”

    So you think “as oft as” doesn’t ‘imply’ or ‘suggest’ a frequency?

    If you believe that it is somehow heinous to infer something then you need to condemn Randy too:

    Randy quote: “as often as” meaning anytime you so choose”

    Talk about a stretch. But you won’t deal with it coming from him.

    If you don’t infer certain ideas when you study then how do you draw the conclusion that the thief repented on his cross?

    Joey

  251. To quote someone, you have to do the little arrow keys that look like parenthesis above the comma and the period with the word “blockquote” in between before the quote and this: /blockquote between the same arrows after the quote.

    Sorry it is such a verbose example, but if I try to show you, it will do it rather than show what I write.

    I know what you mean. HTML markups or similar.

  252. Joey,

    I want to answer the question you asked me yesterday.

    Would you mind posting your email address first? Or send me a blank email to:

    coreydavis@insightbb.com

    if you don’t want your email made public. I’ll explain why I ask when I email you.
    Thanks,
    Corey

  253. Joey,

    It is these buttons:

    with “blockquote” for quotes, “strong” for bold and “em” for italics.

    Don’t forget to put a “/” in front of the second “blockquote” or whatever.

  254. Nathan wrote:
    Corey, do you feel that faithful has explained his accusations in a way that you feel to be adequate?

    Well, no. He has never pointed out a behavior the scriptures say is “sinful” or “rebellious”, but he has at least attempted to address the issue. Too bad it took so much effort to finally get an answer.

    I’m just letting it drop and I’m going to ignore him (as much as is possible) from here on out.

  255. here’s a question,
    can a man hear the gospel, understand that he is being baptised for the remission of sin and meet all of the coc requirements and still not be saved?
    lee

  256. Lee,

    Yes, he could still not be saved if he didn’t repent or confess Christ as Lord.

    I have to object to the term “coc requirements”. They are God’s requirements, laid out in His word. Just because we teach them doesn’t mean they are “our” requirements – they are the Lord’s so we teach them.

  257. “Yes, he could still not be saved if he didn’t repent or confess Christ as Lord.”

    Are you saying what I hope you think you are saying-that he COULD or MIGHT not be saved because He has not done these things, or that He WOULD not be saved? What if he did not understand or was not taught those things?

    This is where I get frustrated-when we base our salvation on what WE understand. It is what GOD does-not what we do. Yes, if we are shown the plan-we should obey-no questions about that. If someone refuses, that is an entirely different issue, but if someone does not fully understand or comprehend what is happening-that is where God’s grace comes in.

    It is crazy for our feeble human minds to declare who God saves and who He doesn’t when we are certainly not God and He is BIGGER and can do MORE that we can ever imagine. He also desires and wants ALL men to be saved-why is it so hard for us to accept that?

  258. -Yes, if we are shown the plan-we should obey-no questions about that. If someone refuses, that is an entirely different issue, but if someone does not fully understand or comprehend what is happening-that is where God’s grace comes in.

    I agree with you totally…if our understanding is what makes God act, I pitty us all….well except for those who are perfect, but I havent many anyone like that yet

  259. Cory is this plain enough for you.

    Pr 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
    17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
    18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
    19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
    19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
    19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
    19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
    19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
    19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
    19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
    19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
    19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

  260. What about retarded people, who cant understand the plan of salvation? Does God require they understand the gospel and obey the 5 step formula? What scripture excuses them? Could not the same Grace cover the sins of those who fail to understand the gospel? What about the millions of people who never even have heard the gospel? Will they be lost because they failed to meet the 5 step formula?

  261. Katherine wrote:
    Are you saying what I hope you think you are saying-that he COULD or MIGHT not be saved because He has not done these things, or that He WOULD not be saved? What if he did not understand or was not taught those things?

    Who, other than a false teacher, would teach faith and baptism and not repentance and confession? There is nothing in scriptures to lead us to believe that one is saved without repentance or confession. To presume that one is saved without doing any of the Lord’s commandments is just that – a presumption.

  262. When a person says he pays his house or car payment on the first day of the month does he do it every month?

  263. “On May 22, 2008 at 1:58 pm Randy Said:
    What about retarded people, who cant understand the plan of salvation? Does God require they understand the gospel and obey the 5 step formula? What scripture excuses them? Could not the same Grace cover the sins of those who fail to understand the gospel? What about the millions of people who never even have heard the gospel? Will they be lost because they failed to meet the 5 step formula?”

    The bible mentions the folks that are “out of the way”

    They will be ok

  264. Randy wrote:
    What about retarded people?

    Looking for loopholes and exceptions is what this seems to me. A person who is mentally handicapped as to be permanently a child would likely be judged as such. I can’t tell you. The Bible only deals with the overwhelming majority of us.

    We need to stop trying to find some exception or loophole that will excuse those who HAVE been taught the truth, yet refuse to accept it.

  265. Looking for loopholes and exceptions is what this seems to me. A person who is mentally handicapped as to be permanently a child would likely be judged as such. I can’t tell you. The Bible only deals with the overwhelming majority of us.

    We need to stop trying to find some exception or loophole that will excuse those who HAVE been taught the truth, yet refuse to accept it.

    Corey, I am not looking for loop holes for anyone, just making a point that Gods grace is bigger than our understanding. I agree with what you are saying

  266. Faithful:

    And on the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread
    “did we bread every first day of the week”

    And on the first day of the week, when we gathered to shoot pool
    “did we shoot pool every first of the week”

    And on the first day of the week, when we met for lunch
    “did we meet every first day of the week”

    And on the first day of the week, when we went to the store
    “ did we go to the store every first day of the week”

    And on the first day of the week, when we camped at Goose point
    “did we camp at Goose Point every first day of the week”

  267. I am not trying to find a loophole, Corey-I am trying to emphasize God’s grace and who He is over what WE DO, but you seem to be missing what I am saying…and sadly, you are not alone.

    Did you read this part?:

    It is crazy for our feeble human minds to declare who God saves and who He doesn’t when we are certainly not God and He is BIGGER and can do MORE that we can ever imagine. He also desires and wants ALL men to be saved-why is it so hard for us to accept that?

    I just don’t understand how we can make this so much about us, when it is CLEARLY God who saves, otherwise there would have been no point for Jesus to suffer on the cross.

    **I am going to be traveling for the next few hours, so if I do not respond I am not ignoring and will try to respond when I get home.

  268. I wanted to add two verses, I know they do not sum up the entire Bible-but they emphasize the free gift of grace that God has given us and I wanted to share them with you:

    “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast.” ~Ephesians 2:8-9

    “So do not be ashamed to testify about our Lord, or ashamed of me his prisoner. But join with me in suffering for the gospel, by the power of God, who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.” ~2 Timothy 1:8-10

  269. Katherine –

    I know exactly what you’re saying. The problem I have with it is that God has already told us who He will save and those who would be saved must do.

    I’m not making it about myself or anyone else. I’m making it all about God. He has told us what He expects of us to be saved. If He plans on saving people who do any variety of the things He commanded I think He would have communicated it.

    God does want all men to be saved, but He has also said that all men won’t be saved.

    Randy wrote:
    Corey, I am not looking for loop holes for anyone, just making a point that Gods grace is bigger than our understanding.

    God’s grace is great, but to ignore His commandments, to write them off, or to only do part of what He has commanded is to put His grace to the test. That is not something we need to be doing.

  270. Corey, I am not doing that at all ! You are taking me all wrong

    God’s grace is great, but to ignore His commandments, to write them off, or to only do part of what He has commanded is to put His grace to the test. That is not something we need to be doing

  271. An open letter to the so called church of Christ members who side with and support the denominational people here looking to destroy the gospel preachers and the local church. Shame on you. When Paul met Jesus on the road to Damascus he was told he was persecuting the Lord by persecuting the church. Congratulations , you’re as guilty as Paul was by helping these men . You are thier poster kids. You are as guilty as Paul when he held the coats of the men that stoned Steven. I hope that you will repent for your evil deeds and come to your senses. Repent!

  272. Faithful is your rant directed at this entire blog or specific people?

    Either way I feel that your little rant should be more self-directed than anything because it is you and your brand of Christianity that is doing more harm than good. But whatever, if you go to sleep at night without a guilty conscience due to the negative impact you have had by misusing the name of Christ… then I guess more power to you. I know, however, that when I lay my head down at night that my relationship with the Lord is right and not only that but that I have represented Christ to the best of my abilities by honoring Him with my speech and actions. Your accusations and mean spirited tongue do nothing to reflect a loving God, full of grace and for that I say back to you SHAME ON YOU. You have the endless supply of a loving God at your fingertips and instead of spreading that message, you fill your posts with contempt and unfounded accusations. My heart bleeds for the lost of this world and I am burdened for people like yourself who are so bottled up in their own way of thinking that they don’t realize the hurt they are causing along the way, most of all, the hurt they are causing the heart of God by misusing His name so.

    There I have said my peace.

  273. faithful, which of the 25 sects of the church of Christ are you in?? Let me guess “the one in the bible” thats what each one of the 25 say and they all disagree on things…so much for “the pattern” and “speak where the bible speaks”

  274. Katie is right “faithful” you are part of the problem, its people like you who are splitting the church up. Paul also spoke against such men

  275. and you certainly can’t add to it by acting and speaking the way you do faithful but good luck trying

  276. So Katherine I looked through all the blog and still see that you won’t tell us what church you are a member of. Ashamed? It does have a specific name , right? Ashamed?

  277. “On May 22, 2008 at 4:39 pm Katie Said:
    and you certainly can’t add to it by acting and speaking the way you do faithful but good luck trying’

    You are so right , it’s He that does the adding . I don’t expect you to know that because it’s what the bible says and different from the baptist manual which says the baptist church canged it to a voting system

  278. From faithful: The church of Christ doesn’t have sects .

    I cant believe you would make such a claim, knowing you guys are split over many things, meaning sects….sure you will put a spin on this, I know

  279. There are people and groups that apostate themselves but then they would no longer be in the Lord’s church . There’s more to it than the name

  280. lol I was waiting on that typical reply. So, let me guess, you guys have everything fiqured out perfectly, therefore everyone who disagrees with you or what you think the bible to says is an apostate. It amazes me that you can really make such a claim, but its no suprise. You guys have 25 sects and split over 100 things, even down to fellowship halls, how any cups at the Lords Supper,Bible schools, Sunday school, and the list goes on…even music, but here you will say that doctrinal but the rest is just matters of Judgement-I have heard this already a few times.

  281. To those who are in these sects: Many saints in the church of Christ would happily abandon the party spirit (sectarianism) if someone were available to lead and teach them. Again, it should be said that it is not necessary that a believer leave the ones he loves to surrender the party spirit, as the party spirit, in the main, is a separatist attitude. So, yes, stay where you are and work for reform unless the heat rises to an unbearable temperature. There are preachers/teachers unlike Mr. Faithful in the churhesofChrist…

  282. No two of us agree on everything. We cannot evade this point. To emphasize this truth, a list of one hundred issues over which individuals have disagreed is given below and split into sects within the churchesofChrist; thus our very practice has been inconsistent with our denial of unity in diversity.

    taking of oaths
    serving in the military
    inflicting capital punishment
    using force to defend oneself or others
    voting for political candidates
    serving as a government official
    engaging in political activism
    Christmas or Easter programs
    letting a non-member lead prayer
    lifting hands while singing
    joining a ministerial alliance
    indwelling of the Holy Spirit
    work of the Holy Spirit
    baptism of the Holy Spirit
    prayer for healing
    the Trinity
    special providence
    how God answers prayer
    fasting
    translations of the Bible
    use of Thee and Thou in prayer
    authority of elders
    who selects and appoints elders
    qualifications of elders
    tenure of elders
    elders presiding at the Lord’s Table
    qualifications of deacons
    deaconesses
    enrolling widows
    addressing disciples as Major or Doctor
    long hair on men
    midweek contributions
    dimming the lights during prayer
    singing as the emblems are passed
    use of church buildings for secular activities
    use of pictures of Jesus
    use of symbols such as the cross
    use of steeples and stained glass windows
    use of the term Sunday School
    passing of the collection baskets
    eating in the church building
    grounds for disfellowshipping
    support of colleges from the church treasury
    divorce for any cause
    remarriage of a divorced person
    preacher officiating at a wedding of a divorced person
    disciples marrying non-members
    preacher officiating for a mixed marriage
    use of an instrument in “church” weddings
    method and type of inspiration of the Bible
    re-baptism of Baptists and Christian Church members
    the “five items of worship”
    use of choirs, choruses, quartets, solos, etc.
    serving the Lord’s Supper on Sunday evening
    serving the Lord’s Supper other than in assemblies
    integration of races
    smoking
    total abstinence from alcoholic beverages
    membership in fraternal orders
    contributing to public charities
    use of Bible class literature
    youth directors, youth rallies, youth camps
    the six days of creation being literal days
    the extent of evolution
    the operation of Christian hospitals
    awards and prizes for church activities
    debating religious issues
    ministers of education, ministers of music, etc.
    benevolence to fellow-disciples only
    the baptismal “formula”
    formal confession before baptism
    going to law against disciples
    dedicating babies
    signing contribution pledge cards
    children’s homes under eldership or a board
    dancing
    women wearing shorts and slacks
    women wearing slacks to church services
    girls leading prayer in family devotionals
    girls leading prayer in youth devotionals
    clapping hands during singing
    buying VBS refreshments from the treasury
    the present day activity of demons
    applauding in the assembly
    use of God’s name as a by-word
    use of euphemisms of God’s name in by-words
    use of contraceptives
    abortion
    adopting out an illegitimate child
    women working outside the home
    Children’s Bible Hour
    bussing children to services
    “What is to be will be.”
    bodily resurrection
    if we shall know each other in heaven
    degrees of reward and punishment
    whether heaven and hell are literal places
    dress code for men serving the Lord’s Supper
    whether Christ came in AD 70
    a name for the church

  283. there are “big” issues over which the cofC have created open divisions, aligning brethren in different sectarian, exclusive groups.

    use of Sunday School classes
    use of women teachers
    use of multiple communion cups
    premillennialism
    congregations cooperating in evangelism through a sponsoring church
    supporting Christian orphanages from the local treasury
    speaking in tongues
    cooking and eating in the church building
    the “located minister” system
    the use of instrumental music in worship
    the use of missionary, benevolent, and other types of societies or organizations to carry out Christian activities.
    In developing such issues, we have become hair-splitters serving a God of quibbles. Sincerely, but being either ignorant or intellectually dishonest, we have twisted and misapplied Scriptures to support our contentions. We have become fixed in the tracks of dogmatism. God’s purposes in His directives have been overshadowed by emphasis on lawful requirements. Binding incidental details often has become more important than the love without which we cannot be bound together. Doctrine, instead of the Savior, has become our center. The binding of scruples has limited the liberties of others. We have not trusted others with the freedom which Christ gives. We have become judgmental and exclusive and have given ourselves a name to distinguish ourselves from others. God’s grace has been limited to our achievement. We continue not only to divide but also to prevent the only true unity. Unless we change our perspective, we shall continue on this ill-fated course. We are doing what we so often say we are fight against-unity!!!

  284. I said
    and you certainly can’t add to it by acting and speaking the way you do faithful but good luck trying’

    Faithful said
    You are so right , it’s He that does the adding . I don’t expect you to know that because it’s what the bible says and different from the baptist manual which says the baptist church canged it to a voting system

    And I almost LAUGHED OUT LOUD. Seriously.
    I am just wondering if you even know what JOY is all about Faithful or if you just live in a state of bitterness and anger towards the “baptist church”.

    Believe it or not people other than yourself and your little band of Robertson followers also read the bible (I know… the whole blog just gasped in shock… who knew that OTHER PEOPLE could POSSIBLE read the bible).
    ANYWAY

    My point stays the same.

    Your bitterness and contempt towards the baptist or any other people for that matter does nothing but alienate yourself further from the gospel of love and grace that Jesus IS, WAS, and WILL ALWAYS BE. And that’s what the Bible has taught me. It’s a shame that your extent of biblical study seems to be revolved around the verses that you twist to promote your anti-christ like agenda.

  285. Katie , it’s too bad you say you read the bible but can not produce a verse to show the baptist church

  286. faithful, why dont you tell us your real name… are you ashamed? And faithful, where do you attend? are you ashamed? You want to ask Katherine these things when you cant even use your real name …are you ashamed…get real ! Tell us your name and where you attend before you even think you have the right to ask her. Least she uses her real name and not hiding behind some name unknown….get real !

  287. Still waiting on that name Faithful! Ashamed?

    youre the only one on here not using your name…and think you have the right to ask that…..youre funny

  288. and ont you love how he looks over things, like the how split they are….come on now faithful, we all see thru you. Who are you? are you ashamed> Where do you atend church, are you ashamed?

    Katherine, dont tell him anything, seeing he is ashamed of his own name and church too, seeing he hasnt stated that info either or maybe this is a local cofC preacher wanting to hide behind the walls

  289. “Faithful”-you are anything but what your name is. All you are doing is hurting the cause of Christ and you are the one who should be ashamed.

    I am not ashamed of ANYTHING-I live my life for God-which is more than I can say for you. You have an agenda-which is not from God-only from you and your sect. I am so sick of this-your words and actions are NOTHING like Christ, and if you think you can justify anything you are doing-you have been greatly misled and deceived. I will not play God like you have chosen to do-but I believe in a mighty, powerful, and graceful God-and you better hope He extends that amazing grace to you-because nothing you are doing here-NOTHING is bringing glory to God, and I will not let you stand by and mock Him anymore. It is an absolute disgrace to Jesus and His incredible message. You spit on the cross, ignore His love, mercy, and grace; and just condemn, belittle and divide. You do EXACTLY what you fight against-even worse. You do not preach Christ nor do any of your fruits come through as Christ-like. You have been fed man-made doctrine and have lost sight of who God REALLY is. It takes courage to leave that and discover the truth for your own self, and I truly pray that one day you will-because all you are doing is bringing shame on yourself and on the name of God.

    I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.” ~Romans 1:16-18

  290. Katie said:

    “Your accusations and mean spirited tongue do nothing to reflect a loving God, full of grace and for that I say back to you SHAME ON YOU. You have the endless supply of a loving God at your fingertips and instead of spreading that message, you fill your posts with contempt and unfounded accusations. My heart bleeds for the lost of this world and I am burdened for people like yourself who are so bottled up in their own way of thinking that they don’t realize the hurt they are causing along the way, most of all, the hurt they are causing the heart of God by misusing His name so.”

    Amen, again Katie-so do you think your father would let us preach one week? 😉

  291. Moot point of the year:

    “Katie , it’s too bad you say you read the bible but can not produce a verse to show the baptist church”

    Produce for us a verse that says “Church of Christ”, faithful.

    Produce for us a verse that says it matters whether or not a specific church or denomination is specifically named in the NT.

    Produce for us a verse that says (essentially) that what matters is the heart of a person, rather than the building in which that person worships.

    That last one should be pretty simple for you.

  292. cant someone sing a new song?………………..
    acapella of course.
    some of these guys wouldnt recognize the love of god if it were a pit bull and attached to their posterior.
    “tell us the name of your church” so we can visit or at least taylor our attack to you personally.
    you know im not as concerned with these guys as i am with the ones who seem determined to attached themselves to them. you seem to be intelligent, thoughtfull and well spoken. let me speak clearly, if they say they are not your brother then they are not. they have no regard for your faith. they believe at best you and i are deceived and at worst we are part of a concerted effort to destroy the church.
    by this shall all men know…………….
    they dont love you. and till you come around to their way of thinking they wont.
    shake that dust off folks. evil communication corrupts good manners. simply said if you wear white gloves into a muddy field to work theres a good chance that your gloves will get muddy but there is no chance that the field will get glovy.
    lee

  293. Faithful said — Katie , it’s too bad you say you read the bible but can not produce a verse to show the baptist church

    And I say
    You are absolutely right on that one Faithful, but I can produce plenty of Bible verses that promote a gospel of love, grace, and unity. I could care less about producing a verse that supports ANY church. I am not put on this earth to praise churches or to honor churches. I am here to honor and praise JESUS CHRIST, plain and simple. I am here to share the love and message of JESUS CHRIST…. not the message of a church, not the message of a mere man but the message of God’s one and only Son.

    Really the last time I checked Christians were charged with the mission of preaching the Gospel of Jesus, not the gospel of church or religion. So if that’s all you have to charge me with, then I am the least bit ashamed. I certainly will not be a preacher or minister of a church, but instead be a sharer of the message of Christ. Wow, what a novel idea!

  294. My name doesn’t affect the doctrinal issues. I don’t even see why you need it. You can call me Josh

  295. Lee Katherine lives in TX. So she says anyway. Do you really think I’m going to TX to visit some bonehead baptist church? I’m just her to admit that she is in a denomination and not the lords church.

    Here is a verse for you Lee:

    Pr 17:28 Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.
    (KJV)

  296. Katie I see you mention love, grace, and unity but not salvation. I think you’re right on target. No salvation for the baptist. Repent

  297. “So if that’s all you have to charge me with, then I am the least bit ashamed”

    As you should be!

  298. Right Faihtful, because LOVE could have nothing to do with Salvation, the love of Jesus Christ… HELLO!!

    Please.

    You are digging deep to try your best to make me look bad but you are just making yourself look ridiculous. But please continue this little online circus and lets see how many times we can in circles, or better yet how many circles I can run around you.

  299. and I said I am the LEAST BIT ashamed as in… I’m not ashamed of anything at all. 🙂 And why should I be?? My sins have been forgiven, HALLELUJAH, and I’m walking with the Lord Jesus, AMEN

  300. Faithful, Its strange how it matters when you “faithful” want to know about Katherine church ( place she attends ) but then he cant reveal his real name and says “ you can call me Josh” as if that is his real name. Josh, Chuck, Faithful, or whoever you are — where do you attend church seeing you consider that important to know of Katherine

  301. Yep, I am wondering what kind of agenda you have by wanting to know what church I attend? I think the reason why you continue to throw accusations and assumptions around is that YOU have something to hide and are being deceptive-therefore you think everyone else must be, too.

    Well, I am not-my name is Katherine, I live in TX, you can click on my name and go to my blog. I HAVE NOTHING TO HIDE. I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus, but you certainly are-or else you would not act this way. I am a disciple of Christ-I follow Him faithfully and have been added to His church-whether you want to accept that or believe it or not will not negate that fact, because God is still the one who saves. You don’t seem to trust anyone and have created another world where everyone is your enemy. That is just sad. Look past your selfish agenda and find Jesus.

    You, faithful yourself have created a worse “denomination” than those you speak out against, but you have been so blinded that you cannot even see it!! You have taken the focus off of Jesus and you continue to try and “play God” by condemning your own brothers and sisters. WAKE UP TO THE TRUTH, “faithful”!! I’ll pour you some coffee to get you started…

  302. Here is a verse for you, “faithful”:

    “How long will you simple ones love your simple ways?
    How long will mockers delight in mockery and fools hate knowledge?” ~Proverbs 1:22

  303. Katie I see you mention love, grace, and unity but not salvation. I think you’re right on target. No salvation for the baptist. Repent

    “faithful”, do you even READ your comments?! Do you understand how illogical this sounds? At least Katie mentions love, grace, and unity (which is the essence of God and what salvation is all about!), which you seem to have ignored!!!

    Why do you believe it is your duty to condemn everyone else and esteem yourself? Do you believe you are on the same level as God? If not, you might want to re-examine your actions and motives, because you sure are trying to be like Him. We are supposed to humble ourselves, love and serve our neighbors, and be light to others-not belittle, tear down, condemn, and hold contempt for each other. You have such a warped view of God that it overflows into how you treat people. You do not accept the love or grace of God, therefore you are not able to extend that to others-at least I have certainly not seen it here-EVEN WHEN someone agrees with you. What a terrible world to live in-you have shut everyone out, even God!! Yet you think He is ruling your life-but if He was, it would be evident by your fruits and it certainly is not…and you want us to bend over backwards to “prove” something to you yet you do not trust us or believe us. How in the world does that work?

    I pray that you will allow yourself to discover and be covered by the love and grace of God-it is AMAZING!!! 🙂

  304. Randy:

    I just wanted to provide a comment on this:

    So, let me guess, you guys have everything fiqured out perfectly, therefore everyone who disagrees with you or what you think the bible to says is an apostate. It amazes me that you can really make such a claim, but its no suprise. You guys have 25 sects and split over 100 things, even down to fellowship halls, how any cups at the Lords Supper,Bible schools, Sunday school, and the list goes on

    You act like this whole scenario is something new and that it discounts the existence of a true body of believers.

    “Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
    12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ
    1 Cor 1:10-12

    So do you think that because there are disputes about authority there isn’t a way to ascertain a pattern? Or that because there are disagreements that there isn’t at least one party in the disagreement that is right? Just because Corinth was dealing with problems didnt mean it was never the church to begin with.

    You’re throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I don’t like to use cliche’s, but I think it fits here.

    Joey

  305. Joey, youre making my points foe me – thanks! This is just what I am saying, although you cant really give me a detailed list that the pattern conssit of – when you do there are other church of Christ people with another pattern….but yes, I honestly agree with you more than you realize. So when I disagree with your “Sunday Only” doctrine, you will kick me aside as one lost, and not a brother……right? So much for the bath water.

  306. oh btw you are right on one point.
    it is the lords church……and from what i can tell you have no resemblance to it. its even hard to tell if you ever did. sorry i couldnt hold my peace.
    lee

  307. Just saw something else I wanted to comment on:

    His directives have been overshadowed by emphasis on lawful requirements

    I’d love to see an example of the differentiation between those two.

    We have become judgmental and exclusive

    The opposite of which would be tolerant and inclusive. If you got what you wanted, you wouldn’t be able to stomach that type of society. Is it exclusive to say a sinner is barred from heaven? If you can’t make that judgement then you may as well keep your light hidden.

    Joey

  308. Randy,

    Just say that you don’t think there is a pattern. That’s what you would love for me to say.

    Joey

  309. Despite the fact that you would draw a line at including another Jesus like the Mormon’s believe or holding snakes and drinking poison like old school pentacostals, even though there is no discernable pattern.

  310. Hype is good, especially if one is trying to sell books, but it can only carry a work so far. Once the hype dies down, one is then left wondering, in the words of the tenacious granny in the burger commercial, “Where’s the beef?!” I have personally searched through this book (Behold the Pattern) time and again, and, frankly, am still left wondering: Where is the pattern?! Bro. Daniel Shumaker, in his in-depth review of Goebel Music’s book (referenced above), concluded with this thought: “The appropriate question for Mr. Music, when he asks us to ‘Behold the Pattern,’ is: What Pattern?!!” (ibid). I have read countless reviews of this book over the years, and the reviewers all invariably come back to that same question. After 660 pages of declaring there IS such a pattern for the church today, and tearing apart by name those who dare to differ with this view, one is still left, at the end of those 660 pages, wondering what that pattern IS. We simply are never told!! Bro. Music goes to elaborate lengths to try and prove that such a pattern exists, but doesn’t inform us as to the specifics of it. Yes, he alludes to a few of what he perceives the particulars to be (like singing without instruments, Sunday only observance of the Lord’s Supper, and the like), but as for providing THE PATTERN, which he invites us to BEHOLD, we only get a quick glimpse.

    According to the legalistic patternists, God has specified in the Scriptures this pattern we are to follow. Curtis Cates says that Goebel’s book is “a clarion call back to Christ’s infallible, inspired pattern for the church and for its organization, unity, worship, mission, et al.” Well, it may indeed be a “clarion call” to embrace such a pattern, but sadly it falls woefully short of actually telling us what it IS. Part of the problem is in the focus of the book itself. As Roy Deaver correctly observes, “Approximately the first one half of the book is devoted to a thorough and devastating exposure of the false teachers among us — some of the leading men involved in current liberalism — and their false doctrines.” In many ways, Behold the Pattern is little more than the ghastly periodical Contending for the Faith in book form (and is largely supported by the same crowd). It is filled with name-calling, personal attacks, and condemnation of anyone and everyone who dares to differ with the tenets of legalistic patternism. As Deaver notes, half the book is filled with this nonsense!!

    Rick Atchley, Jeff Walling, Max Lucado, Rubel Shelly, Randy Mayeux, and a host of others equally well-known, and some less well-known, are vilified in chapter after chapter under the caption: “Strange and Uncertain Sounds from Some Brethren.” This all has precious little to do with actually defining “the pattern,” and a whole lot to do with defaming non-patternists (a common journalistic tactic of the ultra-conservative legalists). Goebel Music actually acknowledged, in his Foreword, that this emphasis upon “marking” the “liberals” might prove to be a cause of concern for some readers. He wrote, “Many will say it is negative because of the 4 chapters that quote 10 of our men in the very rank liberalism they set forth” (p. ix). If Bro. Music was devoting well over half his book to specifying “the errors” of these “liberals” for the stated purpose of refuting their teaching by an appeal to Scripture, then one might see some purpose to such a lengthy exposure. However, by his own admission, that is not his purpose. “It is not mine in this chapter to rebuttal each thought, as my intent primarily is to make known, inform, as to some of those things being said/taught” (p. 112-113). Thus, he provides page after page after page of transcriptions of sermons and lectures, and even photos of church signs outside of buildings infested by “liberals” … and all with no real intent to refute any of it. This, again, is little more than a repeat of the tactics of Contending for the Faith, which is notorious for it baseless attacks upon all those with whom the editors and staff writers differ.
    Although the vast majority of the book consists of such unsubstantiated bashing, nevertheless, in fairness to Goebel Music, he has presented some excellent biblical material based on extensive word studies. Chapter 12, for example, is an excellent essay on “Preaching that Pleases God.” Every preacher ought to read this chapter! Chapter 13 is a marvelous exegesis of the concept of repentance. Chapter 14 is an in-depth examination of the account of the baptism of Jesus. Chapter 16 examines the feminist movement. These are all wonderful studies, and I suspect may at one time have been separate essays, sermons or lectures he had presented in some other setting, however they really have little if anything to do with the topic at hand. They in no way specify the particulars or the parameters of the pattern.

    Those who embrace the concept of patternism will repeatedly represent this “pattern” as being clearly specified by God in Scripture. Goebel does the same in his book. At the very beginning of his work he says “we clearly come to grips in seeing that there is a ‘model,’ ‘rule,’ ‘canon,’ and a ‘type’ to be followed” (p. 2). “God has a pattern in the New Testament” (p. 61). “In fact, man is under a divine obligation to ‘build according to the’ pattern, as that is the only way he can be acceptable, that is, pleasing unto God” (p. 71). “Therefore, let us heed and hold to the pattern” (p. 86). “When God gives the pattern, the model, no man has a motive, the ground to move, that is, to change it in any shape or fashion” (p. 93). “If we learn anything from the New Testament, it is the fact that God does not allow the pattern to be changed” (p. 95). “If a person will only ‘look carefully’ into God’s word, then that person can see, grasp and appreciate the very distinctive fact of the exclusiveness of the pattern of God” (p. 96). “We are not dealing with God’s suggestions, we are dealing with God’s pattern, and conformity to it must be made” (p. 369).

  311. Randy,

    although you cant really give me a detailed list that the pattern conssit of

    There are plenty of creed books around if that’s what you want

  312. “Johnny says that about those who disagree with him – or what he thinbks the bible to say”

    Oh brother…

    Ill just pass over that one.

    Ill read the link. I gotta run for a while so I’ll catch up with you later. I may not respond til next week

    Joey

  313. joey, corey or anyone else who can speak intelligently,
    i would like for you to give me your thoughts on Mark 9
    38-41. it seems to me that jesus is answering to the heart of most of the discussions that take place on this site.
    im just asking.
    lee

  314. I suggest everyone take some time to read the links I provide Joey – they are from church of Christ preachers who aren’t legalist and they even expose the hypercons, seeing some of them once were hpercons themselves. They repented of their sectarian ways as I wish others would do. My wishes are that those in bondage and legalism would come to grips with freedom in Christ, and not bind man-made laws from pet hermeneutics ( CENI ) when an honest mind can see how un-honest ( CENI) really is…

  315. Oh my, after reading that article I would most definitely have to disagree with his conclusions and say they are biased and untrue. That is what happens when you come at issues with the “We are right and the only one true church” mentality-that is the real sectarianism.

    I feel like I am taking crazy pills sometimes when I read what some of these guys write and can actually justify! It is simply illogical, and more than that-unBiblical!!

  316. Especially this dishonest and unabashadly biased claim:

    “What theologically liberal people need, in order to justify their interdenominational-fellowship, is a case where Jesus rebuked his disciples for not fraternizing with those advocating error.

    Our current problem is this: We have men within the church (and they represent a sizable segment) who have lost all respect for New Testament authority. They have become sectarian to the very core of their souls. They desperately want to be affiliated with the denominations, but various factors prevent them from leaving the church outright and joining themselves to the sects. Some of them have already swayed the flocks with which they work—naive souls whose superficial Bible knowledge has made them vulnerable to the charms of slick-talking technicians who masquerade as gospel preachers.

    Some of these feel they are “reformers.” They fantasize that they have been specially called of God to bring “the Church of Christ denomination” out of its suffocating sectarianism into the conglomerate of modern “Christendom.” They actually envision their names inscribed in the books that will chronicle the epochal deeds of ecclesiastical history.”

    That is such an untrue statement it makes my head spin. It has nothing to do with “wanting to be affiliated with denominations”-but answering Jesus’ plea for unity and our own heritage’s original claim: To be Christians only, NOT the only Christians. It is simply recognizing the body of Christ for WHO it is. The ONLY way that people cannot understand that is to be held under and taught this kind of sectarianism mentality that claims “We have it all right” and “You are all wrong”. It simply doesn’t work with the ministry and message of Jesus-never has and never will. He came to seek and save the lost, He has called us to do the same, to love our neighbor and unite with our brothers and sisters in Christ to share the Good News with the world.

    Yet, people waste their precious time on earth condemning and belittling their own brothers and sisters because they THINK they have this charge to do so because they have found “the truth”. It is just unfathomable to me, and I can’t even begin to think what God thinks about it. It makes me both sad and angry, because there is so much more good that could be done than the harm that is being done for the cause of Christ with this attitude.

    How long, O Lord, how long?!

  317. i read it. there is a lot of supposition in the conclusion. i think theres more to it.
    god said that his word would not return to him void. even if the messenger is not perfect the word is quick and powerful. heck even james told me that a non believer can baptise you and it would still be valid.
    so how can a coc man make that exception?
    no i dont have it on tape but thats what he said.
    seems like a discrepancy to me.
    lee

  318. So, Katherine, what you have a problem with are not his conclusions on the actual verses in question, but his comments about those who want to use it as a way to fellowship those in denominations.

    Lee – yes, there is some supposition in the conclusion. As this is an isolated incident, and not fully explained, any conclusions that we come to will have to make some suppositions. The same may be said for someone who reads it and supposes that this is Jesus giving His approval of those who teach something contrary to His word.

    I think his conclusions on the verse alone make perfect sense. You can say what you want about his commentary on those who want to fellowship everyone calling themselves Christians, but it would be hard to dispute his actual conclusions about the verses alone.

  319. But the entire premise of trying to explain the verses was not made out of an attempt for a Bible study, but with an agenda in mind. That greatly bothers me-no matter who is doing it.

    I stand by what I said. People like him, Johnny, “faithful” don’t want unity-they just want to continue to divide. That is a FAR cry from what Jesus prayed for.

  320. Say what you will about me, Norm, James or even Johnny, but you know what we teach a person must do to become a Christian. You also know what teachings we oppose. I know that the point of this site is to examine the beliefs of the churches of Christ, but I have some questions for those who are willing to answer them:

    1. How do you become a Christian?
    2. How do you know that is how you become a Christian?
    3. What teachings would you oppose? Any? If so, what?
    4. Is there any denomination that teaches something wrong? If so, how do you know and do you still consider them Christians if they’re teaching something you believe is wrong?

    I have made an effort here to answer every question thrown my way. I would hope that some of those whose questions I’ve answered might be kind enough to extend the same to me and answer the questions above.

  321. also is the invitation song done by most cofC churhes scriptual and there are many other things too that we have made up over the years that are not in the bible

  322. Katherine,

    Pretend the article just says this:

    John, an eyewitness to the controversy, plainly stated that this man was “casting out demons” in the name of Christ. There are several crucial considerations to be noted.

    1. John, who complained about the man, conceded that the gentleman was actually casting out demons; there is no hint of fraud. The fact is, demons were perfectly capable of distinguishing between those who possessed true expulsion abilities, and those who merely feigned such (see Acts 19:13-16).
    2. The anonymous disciple was doing his work “in [the Lord’s] name.”
    3. There is no evidence that the man was teaching any sort of religious error, and he was not so charged by the disciples.

    The Lord instructed his disciples: “Forbid him not,” or, as the Greek suggests: “Stop hindering him.” The Savior then explained why this fellow was not to be opposed. “No man who is doing a mighty work in my name will be able to quickly speak evil of me.”

    Jesus acknowledged that:

    1. This man was performing genuine signs.
    2. He was doing such in the name of Christ, i.e., on the ground of the Lord’s authority (see “Name,” W.E. Vine, Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words).

    If the man was actually casting out demons, then he obviously was teaching the gospel, because supernatural signs were designed to confirm the truth of the miracle-worker’s message. “Signs” were never granted as mere ends within themselves; they were intended to accompany, and validate, divine instruction (Mk. 16:17-20; Heb. 2:2-4). Supernatural gifts would never have been given to authenticate a false teaching.

    What do we learn from this episode? We are forced to conclude that this unknown disciple had, on an earlier occasion, been associated with Christ, and that the Lord had enlisted the gentleman in His divine mission.

    The disciples were unaware of the man’s identity; nonetheless, he was one of the Savior’s workers. He possessed a spiritual gift. From whom else would he have received that power—if not from the Son of God? Jesus plainly suggested that though this man was not in the immediate company of the twelve, he was nevertheless “for us.” And so the disciples were not to hinder his labor.

    That is the article, minus his commentary on denominations and fellowship. Now tell me what you have a problem with

  323. Lee wrote:
    could you speak about non believers baptising?
    scriptural or no?

    There are a few things to consider:
    *Baptism is something that an individual submits to, in which God does the work.
    *With that in mind, what does the person who administers it have to do with what happens between the individual and God?
    *There is no example in the NT of someone being baptized by a non-believer. The safe road would be to be immersed by a believer. In most instances, that isn’t very difficult.

    Again, if someone says “well, what if I can’t find a believer to baptize me?” I think they’re trying to find a loophole in God’s commands to write off the necessity of baptism.

  324. if the scripture does not infer that we are doing the lords work,then who is it talking about?
    who are these people who are doing the lords work but are not in your company?
    lee

  325. Randy wrote:
    also is the invitation song done by most cofC churhes scriptual and there are many other things too that we have made up over the years that are not in the bible

    We speak to one another and God in our singing. What do we do when we speak to one another? We teach and we encourage each other. How is a song that encourages someone to obey the gospel wrong?

    There are plenty of things you could list used and practiced in the churches of Christ that aren’t specifically mentioned in the Bible; song leaders, song books, “the invitation” and accompanying song, gospel meetings, on and on we can go. The point is that none of those things change or alter God’s commandments. These things are commonly referred to as expedients because that is just what they are. Nothing God has commanded has been changed by any of those things.

  326. I don’t have a problem with that part of the article, Corey.

    The problem I have is with his OPINION that though this man could be included in the work of the Lord, there cannot be ANYONE else in any other church or denomination that might be doing the work of the Lord and be a Christian, too, or be “for us”, or that even those inside of the churches of Christ like Rubel and Mike are wrong, because it is his OPINION that they are all teaching religious error, too and therefore are not working for the Lord.

    It is not consistent, not logical, and not Biblical.

  327. lee wrote:
    if the scripture does not infer that we are doing the lords work,then who is it talking about?
    who are these people who are doing the lords work but are not in your company?

    The people who teach and believe the word of God, wherever they may be. There are people all over the world who I’ve never met who teach the uncompromised word or God. If they come to my congregation, they are still my brother and I’m to treat them as such. Just because I’ve never met them doesn’t mean that they’re not my brother or sister in Christ. If their teachings and practices match that of the Lord then I am to accept them.

  328. well then allow me to introduce myself…………..
    im lee the pentacostal.
    it was worth a try,
    im not mad at ya.
    lee

  329. Katherine – so then, do you agree that Jesus was teaching that just because you’ve never met someone doesn’t mean they’re a false teacher, not that anyone claiming to be a Christian actually is one?

  330. Corey, you have mentioned quite frequently the “safe road” or that you will only stay in what you think is “safe”.

    Is that how you view God? That everything has to be done just right or else if you step outside of that box He will just strike you down?

    I just don’t see you leaving much room for God’s grace.

    You know (or at least I hope you do) that I don’t mean we should abuse or test God’s grace, but it is there and He has given us freedoms. Like when Paul asks if we should continue sinning so that grace can increase…his answer? By no means!!

    It is mostly us, and not God that has limited what we THINK he approves or does not approve of, that He can do or not do, and thereby limit Him and what we can offer to Him. I cannot agree with that when I don’t see our God that way-nor what He taught in the Bible.

    Now, I would never want to make my brother or sister stumble and would never try and do anything to do that. At the same time, I don’t believe we can put God in a box or ourselves in a box or a “safe zone”. Life in Him and for Him was NEVER meant to be lived that way.

  331. Katherine – so then, do you agree that Jesus was teaching that just because you’ve never met someone doesn’t mean they’re a false teacher, not that anyone claiming to be a Christian actually is one?

    I am not sure I am completely following your question-it may be the lack of sleep or the hunger!

    I think we have completely changed the definition of a “false teacher” to “anyone who does not agree just like I do”. From what I read in the Bible, false teachings are those that deny the deity of Christ or intentionally attempt to take you away from God and His Word, etc. That doesn’t line up with the CofC’s definition that gets thrown around WAY more than it should.

  332. Corey said:

    “There are plenty of things you could list used and practiced in the churches of Christ that aren’t specifically mentioned in the Bible; song leaders, song books, “the invitation” and accompanying song, gospel meetings, on and on we can go. The point is that none of those things change or alter God’s commandments. These things are commonly referred to as expedients because that is just what they are. Nothing God has commanded has been changed by any of those things.”

    But, we cannot be consistent enough in the expedient idea to condemn other people when their “expedients” are not the same as ours. THAT is where the major problem comes in. When people make “expedients” (a term we have made up to justify) tests of fellowship-then we are still going beyond what God commanded.

    That is why the whole CENI and “speak where the Bible speaks, be silent where it is silent” hermeneutic does not work because it is inconsistent and often leads to poor scholarship and really bad theology-thereby actually doing what the idea behind it condemns-adding to the Word of God and most definitely speaking where the Bible is silent.

  333. Katherine wrote:
    Corey, you have mentioned quite frequently the “safe road” or that you will only stay in what you think is “safe”.

    Is that how you view God? That everything has to be done just right or else if you step outside of that box He will just strike you down?

    I just don’t see you leaving much room for God’s grace.

    Well, yes, that pretty much is how I see it. We’re told that the Old Testament was written “for our learning”. I see in those writings Moses never entering the promised land because of one little statement. I see Nadab and Abihu struck dead for slightly altering a command. I see King Saul losing his throne over a judgment call. Even in the New Testament I see Annanias and Saphira struck dead over something as “small” as a lie. If I were to sum up God’s actions in the Old Testament I would say, “God isn’t playing around when He tells people to do something”. Over and over again it is proven.

    You may think I’m overly cautious. I think I’m trying to be reverent. I’m trying to show God all the respect He deserves. I’m not willing to leave things to chance.

    I’m not saying you do, but many people like to shout “GRACE! GRACE!” every time they choose to do something God has never asked for. I think many people see God’s grace as something that it isn’t. Grace is a perfect man sacrificing Himself that all men may have forgiveness. Grace is not a blanket to throw over disobedience. Is grace big enough to cover every addition and subtraction from God’s word? I read nothing within scriptures to tell me so. I’m not trying to “put God in a box”. God is the one who says what He will and will not do. I believe He has already told us those things. I sincerely believe that going beyond what He’s already told us truly is putting grace to the test.

  334. Corey, I am terribly sorry that you view God that way-I really am. I think you are missing out on MUCH of who He is, and I hate that for you.

    I am not trying to play down your reverence-but I think we can live in reverence to Him and also freely live, play, sing, and dance in His grace and love. That is what He wants for us-to live a radical, sold out life in His name-and I think that typically looks unconventional. To me, respecting Him is living passionately for Him with what He has given me!

    Yes, the OT is a good learning tool-but the new covenant is what came when Jesus died on the cross to give us FREEDOM in Him!!!! ALL of those examples were BEFORE Jesus came to be the ultimate sacrifice, therefore giving us the most wonderful opportunityNo, it is not to be abused but to be rejoice in!!

    I would never want to go beyond what He has told us or put His grace to the test, but I LIVE in it, bask in it, worship in it, and love in it. I do not think that “grace is a blanked to throw over our disobedience” and I don’t think most people think that way (I know some do). I think much of what we think God has told us NOT to do-He never did. He did not give us a list like the OT of “touch not, taste not, have not, do not”. It is not the same thing-he did not replace one set of strict laws with another-just waiting for us to screw up. Much of what you see as subtraction and addition to His Word I don’t believe is.

    I am not and would not ask you to do anything that would violate your conscience or that you believe is a sin, but I would hope and pray that your view of God will change so that you can understand that living and being in His freedom does not mean that you are being irreverent or abusing His grace-you are simply accepting and basking in that awesome gift!!

  335. I will say this-I agree with you when you said “God isn’t playing around when He tells people to do something”.

    I try to faithfully follow His commands to the best of my ability and live in His will, knowing I will not get it all perfectly-but knowing that God knows my heart, and that He is full of mercy and grace. I also do it out of love, never out of fear-because perfect love drives out all fear.

    I think staying in the “safe zone” is fearful, and I don’t see God calling us to that. When it is a direct command, I will do my best to obey because I love Him and desire to please my Father.

    “In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him. There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.” ~1 John 4:17-18

  336. In essence what I am saying is, there are direct commands from God to us. We are to obey-because we love Him.

    When we take implied or inferred circumstances where we THINK God might be commanding us to do or not do something, then make it something we THINK God wants or does not want, and if we do or do not obey we will be condemned-and then we make it tests of fellowship and divide and conquer over them again and again and again-that is not Biblical, not from God, and is a tool satan loves to divide followers of Jesus. I will not condemn or make commandments where God has not-or out of a vague notion that He might have meant something He never even specified.

    Those are simply human made commands and doctrines which God never authorized or condemned, and it is most definitely adding to the Bible.

  337. “We speak to one another and God in our singing. What do we do when we speak to one another? We teach and we encourage each other. How is a song that encourages someone to obey the gospel wrong?”

    Corey, I never stated it was wrong, but its something we have added just as some have added the altar call, we added the invitation song…we dont always speak where the bible speaks – the invitation song was added and cant be found nowhere in scrpiture – I guess Peter forgot that when he preached in Acts 2. I dont see an alter call wrong either, its the same thing as our “invitation song” something man made up…and Paul wasnt addressing a so-called worship service when he discussed singing…the worship service is another thing man made up…worship is daily 24/7 – 365, not just between 9am and 12pm each Sunday…btm line the CENI has many flaws and many within the church of Chrst have dropped this

  338. lee wrote:
    guess we arent playing golf together.
    or are we?
    just trying to lighten it up.
    lee

    You don’t want to see me limp my way around a golf course! And if I want to behave like a Christian, it is best that I don’t try to do something as frustrating as playing golf!

    Katherine – I think that we are coming at things from a fundamentally different standpoint. That makes it hard to agree sometimes. Love does drive out fear (irrational fear), but we are also to “work out our salvation with fear and trembling”. I think we have to keep in mind that God is both loving and severe. People don’t like to talk about the severity of God anymore, but it is still there – even in the New Testament.

    I have to say I’m a little confused by what you just said and what you’ve said elsewhere. You have a problem with things that are implied or inferred, which I can understand (not that I accept, but I understand), but you say that there are clear commands. What are they? Is not baptism for the remission of sins a clear command? I thought you accept baptism for other reasons? Also, there is a clear command that men are to be the leaders of the congregation, but I’ve seen you talk about wanting to preach. Was that just jesting?

    I guess I’m just wondering what you consider a clear command and how you determine to be so.

  339. “Love does drive out fear (irrational fear), but we are also to “work out our salvation with fear and trembling”. I think we have to keep in mind that God is both loving and severe. People don’t like to talk about the severity of God anymore, but it is still there – even in the New Testament.”

    Well, first I agree with this. But, God is not black and white and I believe while I live and move within His love and mercy-that if I “step outside of the bounds” unintentionally He is not WAITING for me to slip up so He can condemn me and strike me down. He is our Father and we are His children-he has invited us to come to Him, He sent Jesus to die a cruel and painful death for us, so that it would be easy to come to Him. How many fathers do you know who would do that? How many fathers are waiting for their child to mess up so they can punish them? Do you see what I mean? God has given us LIFE and He wants us to live with all that we have to worship Him and be who He created us to be-living in His freedom and love to do His good will. I respect God and love Him because of who He is and what He has done for me-but there is also the intimate side of a relationship with my Father that imagines me crawling in His lap and resting there like a weary child who needs restored.

  340. On to the commands…

    Yes, I believe we are to be baptized-no question. I think where we differ is that I don’t believe we are required to KNOW or be baptized specifically FOR the remission of sins for one’s baptism to be valid. I don’t see where our knowledge saves us, but what God does. Would I teach someone that they are being baptized to have their sins washed away? Absolutely-that is the beautiful thing about baptism-taking off the old and putting on the new, being united with Jesus in His death and resurrection-I love that. But, I cannot tell someone else because they did not fully understand that at the time of their baptism for that reason it is invalid and God did not save them.

    I don’t think I have enough time or room to go into the idea of women’s roles in the church-but no, there is not a clear cut command-there are 2 passages that have been plucked out of context, and need further study. I do believe women have more of a God given role in the church than we have allowed, and that is not just because I am a woman 🙂 I am no feminist-that has come about after years and years of study and prayer. I am sorry I cannot explain further-but I only believe what I believe from what God says and studying it on my own, not a bunch of proof-texting that has been passed down over the years. I know that this is something that has been studied and exhaustively debated and it is not entirely conclusive-and many will disagree with me. I know that and accept that, but I stand firm on what I believe based on my study and knowledge of what God has said throughout the Bible.

    Here is a very clear cut command that many seem to look over, but I hope we can all remember first:

    Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” Jesus replied: ” ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” ~Matthew 22:36-40

  341. “Yes, I believe we are to be baptized-no question. I think where we differ is that I don’t believe we are required to KNOW or be baptized specifically FOR the remission of sins for one’s baptism to be valid. I don’t see where our knowledge saves us, but what God does. Would I teach someone that they are being baptized to have their sins washed away? Absolutely-that is the beautiful thing about baptism-taking off the old and putting on the new, being united with Jesus in His death and resurrection-I love that. But, I cannot tell someone else because they did not fully understand that at the time of their baptism for that reason it is invalid and God did not save them.”

    Well stated ! And its always funny how these men who say one must know or understand baptism perfectly before Gog can, but they never say that about the rest of Acts 2:38…and ye shall recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit. Corey may have known, but most cofC people didnt understand this part of the verse when they were baptized, heck, most didnt even hear it because often we just focus upn the first part “repent and be baptized for ( eis ) the forgiveness of sins and if we read the rest, we never explain it…and the reason being is that there are three positions the church of Christ has taken on the last part of the verse. Well guys, you have a great wekend, I am out for now.

  342. Katherine claims to be a member of the church of Christ but won’t tell us what the specific name is. It’s because she’s lying. Cory told us he goes to MarsHill . I said I go to Martinsville. I don’t see why not tell.

  343. Katherine said ” You have an agenda-which is not from God-only from you and your sect.”

    More evil surmizing Katherine?

  344. Randy said, ” “Yes, I believe we are to be baptized-no question. I think where we differ is that I don’t believe we are required to KNOW or be baptized specifically FOR the remission of sins for one’s baptism to be valid. I don’t see where our knowledge saves us, but what God does.”

    If it’s the faith in the work he’s doing how can we have that faith if we don’t know what he’s doing or doing for the wrong reason?

    Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
    (KJV)

  345. “faithful”, I am not lying-you must be the same guy that attacked me over at the youtube video site. I am in transition right now so I don’t have one particular church I am involved in right now (not that any of this is your business but you have sent false accusations my way), but I am still a “member” at churches throughout TX. You can click on my name and see the churches I have been a part of under my links section if you really want to know. Like I said, I have NOTHING to hide.

    …and no, “faithful” I am not “evil surmizing”-just telling it like it is and basing it on your fruits-or the serious lack of them. God gave me a brain so I am using it, and yes you have an agenda because you are not just Christ or any of His wonderful attributes. When you show me otherwise, I will be more than happy to retract my statement-but what you are doing and continue to do is NOT from God, no matter which way you justify it…AND God is saving people you do not believe are or should be saved!! Woo hoo!! 🙂 I really do hope you make it to heaven to see how many people who you condemned actually make it, because GOD is GOD!!!

  346. “faithful” said:

    Randy said, ” “Yes, I believe we are to be baptized-no question. I think where we differ is that I don’t believe we are required to KNOW or be baptized specifically FOR the remission of sins for one’s baptism to be valid. I don’t see where our knowledge saves us, but what God does.”

    If it’s the faith in the work he’s doing how can we have that faith if we don’t know what he’s doing or doing for the wrong reason?

    Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
    (KJV)

    Actually, I (Katherine) said that-Randy only agree with me because it is TRUE. I was not talking about faith, I was talking about knowledge-our knowledge of EXACTLY what He is doing is NOT what saves-GOD is the one who saves us!! Why is that so hard to understand?!

    I will restate what I said after that so you will get the FULL picture:

    Would I teach someone that they are being baptized to have their sins washed away? Absolutely-that is the beautiful thing about baptism-taking off the old and putting on the new, being united with Jesus in His death and resurrection-I love that. But, I cannot tell someone else because they did not fully understand that at the time of their baptism for that reason it is invalid and God did not save them.

  347. So Katherine you can’t ell us what the church is that you were attending before all of the traveling?

  348. “faithful”-if is that important to you:

    click on my name which will take you to my blog, scroll down and on the left hand side are a bunch of links-there you will find the churches I have been a part of. If you really want to know that bad, that is all you have to do. I told you from the beginning I have nothing to hide, which is more than I can say for you.

  349. You are twisting what I said once again-which you seem to be very good at. Not once in my conversation have I said “faith is not important”, and I am not saying that now.

    Just READ!!!

  350. evil surmizing?
    heres first hand evidence. johnny robertson speaking of brian edwards when he would call in to his show “i take every opertunity to make a fool out of brian”
    yet in another show he proclaims his love for him.
    when i called in to check him on that, he had no memory of the first statement.
    just the facts mamn…..just the facts.
    lee

  351. faithful, why dont you at least share your name – you still working on “the hill”

    I still am finding it amazing that you guys are coming on this blog – is this part of your training school? when will you be preaching on TV. I bet this blog is like a teaching tool to you guys, so you know our every argument, same here. I happen to like the fact that we both can engage in these type of debates. I have learned one thing, you guys quite often evade points and move on. I ask many times was it sinful to have the Lords Supper every Thursday and every Sunday, and if so, use scriptire stating so, not just what you assume. I also have poined out that most cofC people dont understand the latter half of Acts 2:38 – I even have one tape where Johnny and James taught this was refering to the gifts that the 12 had and was not for today and then later I have another tape where Norm states something diff, which I think he is right,so maybe Norm changed Johnnys mind on this verse too as he did with the heated issue prior to him being hired.

  352. ok, let me go slower faithful – you stated: If it’s the faith in the work he’s doing how can we have that faith if we don’t know what he’s doing or doing for the wrong reason?

    First of all never did I say to have faith in the act of baptism, I stated baptism is act of faith, eamning in Christ, meaning ones faith in Christ is what causes one to be baptized, why else be baptized. The denominations you so often condemn have this same faith in Christ and are baptized…ask Rick or Katie, why else would they get baptized?? Cant you get the johnny Roberston blinders off for even a minute to see this. So you have faith in baptism or faith in Christ? Having faith is Christ is what compels one to confess, repent and get baptized….and yes > Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. I think this says faith through the faith of the opeeration of God, not through my understanding or faith in baptism. God does the work in baptism and its not based upon how smart I am before he does the work…cant you even see this??? Take off your Johnny glasses and do us another favor, least be sure enough in your position to use your real name or should I??

  353. Randy the faith is in His work of forgiving our sins during the baptism. What in the world are you rambling about?

  354. Katherine I see on your blog “fellow seminarians”. Does that mean you’ve been to seminary school? I still don’t see the church links your talking about but I’m looking. I did look at the Mars Hill site that Corey goes to. It didn’t really show much.

  355. Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
    (KJV)

    Randy take off your Ray Charles glasses. Read the verse carefully

  356. surmizing is not in merriam webster but surmising is:
    to form a notion of from scanty evidence.
    hows that? looks like im right on point.
    now how about that charge i made? true or not?
    you seem to know him ask him yourself.
    am i therefore become your enemy because i tell you the truth?……………… im sure you will find lots of reasons.
    lee

  357. From Faithful: “So now we now know Lee doesn’t know what surmizing means”

    Here we go again with the cheap shots. Why call Lee out like that? Boy how grace shines from your souls…

  358. the faith is in Christ, His work, not our understanding. What in the world are you rambling about “faithful”? Do you trust Christ and have faith in his work, did you confess for this casue; Do you trust Christ and have faith in his work, did you repent for this cause; do you have faith in Christ and have faith in His work; did you get baptized for this cause?? Looks like I rambled on again:)

  359. hi randy,
    since i cant get a response from faithless,
    maybe you will be so kind as to correct my ignorance.
    thanks for the defense.
    you faithfull steward.
    lee

  360. Randy take off your Ray Charles glasses. Read the verse carefully

    – lol, okay, you got me in that one. I know the verse quite well, matter of fact Johnny used some material I gave him once on these very verses as did Jason in his last debate. I know quite well your take on these verses – I still have every email ever sent to me from each person there. Since you “think:” I misunderstand the verses, please dont just call me out, but correct me. I am opened minded – explain to me my misunderstanding of these verses and please make sure you include the place where it states one must understand the doctrine of baptism perfectly before God can work in baptism. As stated above, all people confess Christ due to their faith in Christ, same with repenting and baptism…oops, I just keep rambling on

  361. “faithful” said:

    “Katherine I see on your blog “fellow seminarians”. Does that mean you’ve been to seminary school? I still don’t see the church links your talking about but I’m looking. I did look at the Mars Hill site that Corey goes to. It didn’t really show much.”

    Yes, I have been working on my Master’s in Ministry.

    Ok, try this again-and you have to keep scrolling down the page passed a couple of subtitles until you get to “church family” and that is where you fill find the church links.

  362. Thankyou Katherine I found it . I’m curious on the page about Sunday worship it says what we do and there is a picture of someone washing feet. Do you paractice this or is it a poorly chosen place to post the picture.

    I’d also be interest in what you intend to do with that degree. Preach?

  363. Corey I found one through google for marshill. I think that’s what you sais it was called. I think it may have been in Arkansas ?

  364. I don’t know which site you are referring to-there are multiple church websites I put up, none of which I am actively involved with at the present-but have in the past.

    Foot washing is a servant action-I think that would be amazing to have during a service. What a beautiful picture of service-I doubt that is a “poorly chosen place to post a picture”.

    I don’t even know what to do with some of your comments and postings sometimes-you get so focused on the little things that you seem to miss the larger picture of Jesus and His body. This makes me sad for you-and angry b/c you and your friends have such a huge platform and only use it to tear others down-not bring them up. That is incredibly hard for me to understand-especially since you seem to justify it till the cows come home, and in reality-you are not really Biblically justifying it. There is no love or grace in your message-and that is WHO God is. You have boiled Jesus’ message down to a religion and will fight to the death for it-yet it is in vain-because you have lost focus of what is important and at the essence of His beautiful message. You get so wrapped up in attacking “that church”, “that denomination”, or even worse-those within your own brotherhood that you have lost sight of who God is-or you may have never really known in the first place. You will not find it with Johnny-that is for sure. He has made his own brand of religion and formed his own God to condemn and belittle people. You guys think you can tear down, and use manipulative and deceitful tactics on people you don’t agree with like you have been given that right-but you have not. In fact, you have been given a completely different charge-but you choose to ignore it and spit on the cross of Christ by your actions.

    I don’t know how any honest, Christ follower can ever support how he acts or behaves-or worse, join in with him. Only people who have been blinded, or place their loyalty in him, or maybe are too scared to speak up will support that nonsense. It is only those who have courage who will speak up and out against what he is doing-because it is not bringing glory to God and it is not serving His people-but only tearing them down.

    Oh, and I have been involved in youth and campus ministries for the past 10 or so years. I will continue to be involved in ministry wherever God opens doors.

  365. still not in the dictionary and still not answering the question. but thats par for your course.
    lee

  366. Lee we aren’t studying the dictionary. It’s the big boog that says Bible on the front.

  367. On May 24, 2008 at 8:46 am faithful Said:
    Lee we aren’t studying the dictionary. It’s the big boog that says Bible on the front.

    That is suppost to be book

  368. Katherine it sounds as if you are geting a masters in denominationalism? What school are you attending and what will you do with your degree? Preach?

  369. Katherine , the SDA practice foot washing would you worship with them ? Are they in Christ?

  370. Why the 3rd degree on Katherine?

    What school are you/did you attend Faithful? Seriously, I was wondering this the other day. I know of many different bible schools and seminaries. Did Johnny and Norm attend a school like that, does the CofC have a “bible college”? And I’m actually not being sarcastic or anything, I was just generally wondering this the other day.

    But if you wanna really get into someone’s schooling, I think I can divert your attention just by telling you what school I just graduated from. So I’ll tell you mine if you tell me yours.. 🙂

  371. Faithful,
    The buddhist practice prayer and meditation does that mean you can no longer pray?

    What a weird question.

  372. faithful,

    John 13:1-16; I Timothy 5:10

    Foot-washing is Scriptural. Jesus himself did it to his disciples. Not following the example of Jesus exalts oneself above Him and enables a person to live in pride. “No servant is greater than his master” (John 12:26).

  373. Katie: What school are you/did you attend Faithful? Seriously, I was wondering this the other day. I know of many different bible schools and seminaries. Did Johnny and Norm attend a school like that, does the CofC have a “bible college”? And I’m actually not being sarcastic or anything, I was just generally wondering this the other day.

    Randy: Maybe you should ask Johnny about “their preaching school” that they had funds sent here for…ask for the picture of the class mates that were then sent to the folks funding the preaching school…matter fact ask Joey and Faithful on here – they know about it 🙂

  374. there are many examples they dont follow – but here they will throw out the culture card.

  375. churchesofchrist wrote:
    “there are many examples they dont follow – but here they will throw out the culture card.”

    Like the holy kiss. The big difference is (I’ve mentioned it here once or twice) that the holy kiss is commanded five times. How many times are we commanded to take the Lord’s Supper each first day of the week? And yet for that, they’ll condemn someone?

    It’s all pretty out of synch.

  376. I guess what I have a hard time coming to terms with is all the legalities of these “hypercons” of the CofC.

    But I don’t want that to be misinterpreted that I’m a free loving, all roads lead to Jesus believer. Because I am not. I believe there are obvious things that we should steer ourselves away from, things that bring about immorality and sin.

    But what boggles my mind is that if a person is wanting to praise the Lord with a song or honor the Lord through acts of service… they are condemned for doing so. It just seems to foreign to me, to view God as a law-maker and not the loving God that I know Him as. I realize that God also sends His wrath, I’m not claiming that but honestly, because a person is choosing to do something that is intended to HONOR God, we must condemn them… based on the argument that “the Bible doesn’t authorize that”. Are you kidding me??? So the Bible (God’s word) doesn’t authorize that we can PRAISE OUR CREATOR, that we CAN SERVE OUR LORD. That’s absurd to me. Of course it authorizes that, we were created for those two purposes.

  377. OK answering: If we are to practice the same culture and you are trying to be correct in your stance with God, which I’m assuming you are , do you practice the holy kiss? If not why?

  378. Katie does it bother you that I want to have a conversation with Katherine? A little jealous? She claims all the denominations are in Christ and she is part of the Lord’s church . I’m curious if she is getting an education from a denomination.

  379. “But what boggles my mind is that if a person is wanting to praise the Lord with a song or honor the Lord through acts of service… they are condemned for doing so. It just seems to foreign to me, to view God as a law-maker and not the loving God that I know Him as”

    The reason this doesn’t register with you is the baptist church doesn’t care about authority. If they did they wouldn’t have women preachers and go to the OT for the authority when they do choose to teach something from the book.

  380. On May 24, 2008 at 8:59 am Katie Said:
    “so they have like a specific school the.
    Is it accredited? nationally known?”

    By accredited do you mean recognized by the world? Wordly acknowledgment? Don’t think I don’t know what the word means. The men in the training school are not after a sheepskin to hang on the wall or adding to a resume. They are interested in learning the bible. The preachers here now went to the Memphis school of preaching . The school doesn’t fill the needs of the work we’re doing here in that the men here want to do evangalism and go to school at the same time. That’s really possible the school in Memphis

  381. “Not following the example of Jesus exalts oneself above Him and enables a person to live in pride. ”

    Are you trying to get on a cross? If we don’t get hung on a tree are we a failure too?

  382. Actually, I walk quite a bit. My kids and I just returned from an outside excursion, and I made them watch their feet because they got dirty. My feet need to be washed, too.

    Now, don’t get me wrong. I know your point – that Jesus lived in a dusty landscape, and so people needed to have their feet washed more than modern Americans do. I have participated in feet washings, however, because the principle is the same – it is a humbling action – a servant’s action. That is what Jesus was teaching his disciples – that the leader must be a servant.

    You wrote:
    “Katherine , the SDA practice foot washing would you worship with them ? Are they in Christ?”

    Why don’t you answer a variation of your own question. The SDA practices foot washing. Are they wrong to do this?

    As to your question about whether or not I practice the Holy Kiss, that is a moot question and my answer would be irrelevant. Why? Because I am not the one telling everyone that they have to follow the NT exactly or else burn in hell. I’m not the one telling people that they have to take the Lord’s Supper a certain way and time or else be in sin. I’m not the one that says that the lack of musical instruments in the NT means we are in sin if we use them. That’s you guys – and so it’s your bed to lay in.

    Do you claim to be the 21st Century version of the NT church? Do you claim to be the same church today that existed back then? Do you condemn others because they “can’t find their church in the Bible” and claim that you are the ones from Romans 16:16?

    If so, then the burden is on for YOU to answer that question about the Holy Kiss. If you do not practice this, then please explain why you disobey a direct command that is found five times in the NT?

  383. “faithful” said:

    “Katherine it sounds as if you are geting a masters in denominationalism? What school are you attending and what will you do with your degree? Preach?”

    Wow, that would be a pretty big title-ha ha! What the heck? How do you seem to continue to miss the point? I think I have already revealed enough information about myself while you have skirted around some of mine and other’s questions and comments, so I am not going to add fuel to your fire.

    I already told you above-I have been involved in youth and campus ministries for the last 10 years WHILE working on my degrees, and will continue to be involved in ministry wherever I go-whether that looks conventional or unconventional.

    “faithful” also said:

    “Katie does it bother you that I want to have a conversation with Katherine? A little jealous? She claims all the denominations are in Christ and she is part of the Lord’s church . I’m curious if she is getting an education from a denomination.”

    What would Katie have to be jealous of-that you are trying to pry into my personal life to spin it somehow? You are misquoting me again-partly because you simply do not understand what I am saying (or actually what the BIBLE says) and partly because you don’t WANT to…but let me try again: I never said that “all the denominations are in Christ”, I said that your institutional “church of Christ” or any of those I have worshipped, is NOT the one true church and anyone who does enter its doors and worship there is going to hell…because the CHURCH, the body of Christ is made up of the PEOPLE of God which cannot be boiled down to one location or group-they are spread all over the world. What we have created as religious groups does not equal the BODY of Christ.

    This is the truth, no matter if you choose to continue to be in denial and not accept it, and choose to condemn your own brothers and sisters in Christ-it will never change or alter the truth, because Jesus Himself is the one who saves…and hallelujah that He does!!! 🙂

    I am not getting an education from a “denomination” lol-but from accredited universities.

  384. Katie said:

    “But what boggles my mind is that if a person is wanting to praise the Lord with a song or honor the Lord through acts of service… they are condemned for doing so. It just seems to foreign to me, to view God as a law-maker and not the loving God that I know Him as. I realize that God also sends His wrath, I’m not claiming that but honestly, because a person is choosing to do something that is intended to HONOR God, we must condemn them… based on the argument that “the Bible doesn’t authorize that”. Are you kidding me??? So the Bible (God’s word) doesn’t authorize that we can PRAISE OUR CREATOR, that we CAN SERVE OUR LORD. That’s absurd to me. Of course it authorizes that, we were created for those two purposes.”

    Once again….Amen, Katie!! 🙂 You hit the nail on the head!!

  385. Do you claim to be the 21st Century version of the NT church? Do you claim to be the same church today that existed back then?
    Answer : yes to both

    Do you condemn others because they “can’t find their church in the Bible” and claim that you are the ones from Romans 16:16?

    Answer :The bible condems them not me

  386. Answering , you do want to do the right thing thing though , correct? Do you study to find out how to please God or how to justify what you want to do?

  387. The church doesn’t have doors Katherine. the church is people. Do people have doors?

  388. I know in the OT thier when unauthorised worship occured there were usually dead people laying around afterwards. So you don’t think authorisation is needed?

  389. I was wondering about what school you’re going to because the Lords church doesn’t have seminaries. They have preaching schools and they would not except a woman into the school.

  390. “faithful” said:

    “The church doesn’t have doors Katherine. the church is people. Do people have doors?”

    You clearly are not paying attention, because this is what I have been saying all along-that the CHURCH is God’s PEOPLE. YOU are the one who has boiled it down to the name with a church on the sign outside and those who worship inside-you can say you are not, but that is EXACTLY what you are doing.

    I am sorry, but you have been misled and are confused on this subject-no thanks to Johnny I am sure. I don’t really know how to make it any clearer, but you will only understand if you WANT to and are open to understanding what God’s church, His body really is. As long as you stick with your current beliefs and your agenda of condemning those in all of the other “denominations” you won’t be able to see what God is really saying and who His people really are. I am sorry that you cannot see that-it would change your ENTIRE view of who God really is and how you should treat His people. I hope one day He gives you that wisdom and you are willing to listen.

  391. “faithful” said:

    “I was wondering about what school you’re going to because the Lords church doesn’t have seminaries. They have preaching schools and they would not except a woman into the school.”

    There you go again getting wrapped up in semantics…but the word is “accept” 🙂 I told you that I have been working on my degree from accredited universities (within our cofC heritage). I just called them my “seminarian friends” because they have also been in school with me.

    I would most certainly never even want to go to a “preaching school” because they teach “church of Christ” doctrine and I am not about that at all. My brother went to one so I know what they teach.

    You are still missing the point and the bigger picture. You are so focused on your little sect and little world-condemning everyone else-that you cannot even see what God is doing in and around you-through people you would not even expect. That is what you should be looking for-ways that God is breaking through into this world!

  392. Faithful, It was good meeting you the times we talked and at the tent you quoted me scripture the first time we met, you really have a strong desire for the lost, but its not coming thru as well on this blog. I dont see why you continue to use this name, why not just use your real name?

  393. Katherine you want to include lost people as Gods people. I won’t buy into that. Peopel that follow a different plan of salvation and are in a church never mentioned can’t be included. Do you include mormons and JW as God’s people?

  394. Are you all aware that in the early 1800s around 1830 the church was growing it’s fastest while the bold style of preaching ws used like the gospel preachers you all are against are using. If using the same style of preaching is getting great results today (4 and working on 5 new congregations and 5 denominational preachers baptized in 8 years) why oppose it?

  395. Randy , I could ask you why you do the things you do. I guess you would tell me it because you choose to. Why do you fight the church so bad. I don’t see how anyone could spend a year studying with the church and then leave denying . Going back to denominationism?

  396. “I would most certainly never even want to go to a “preaching school” because they teach “church of Christ” doctrine and I am not about that at all. My brother went to one so I know what they teach.”

    I’m glad you said that. How can you be in a church that you deny the doctrine? You say you’re member but deny the doctrine. How does that work?

  397. “faithful” said:

    “I’m glad you said that. How can you be in a church that you deny the doctrine? You say you’re member but deny the doctrine. How does that work?”

    Because there is a huge difference in the “church of Christ” doctrine that you are preaching and the pure and simple message of Jesus that He called us to preach. If what Jesus has said and called us to does not line up with typical “church of Christ” doctrine that men have come up-then I will always choose Jesus’ way and teaching-even if I am criticized or ridiculed because of it.

    I believe in Jesus and His message, and will only preach Him and Him alone. His message is beautiful-and is one of love and grace for His people. All we have to do is come. The “church of Christ” doctrine and beliefs that these guys preach only adds to God’s Word and places burdens on people.

    No church on earth is perfect. We are all (hopefully) striving to do God’s will. I love my heritage and family, and we are on a journey together. We continue to study and understand what God is saying-studying for ourselves and constantly being willing to humbly submit to what His Word says-even if and when that does not line up with what “we have always believed”. If we have believed it for the sake of tradition-then it is vital we always turn to God for what He really says. It takes courage to admit we have been wrong and to seek forgiveness and reconciliation with our brothers and sisters in Christ, but it is an absolutely beautiful thing to recognize the real body of Christ instead of continually throwing up barriers that only divide more.

    I could never be a part of a church that has this kind of mentality or believes many of the things that these guys preach because I simply do not think they are Biblical, and cannot agree with them. I want to be a part of a church that understands that yes, we are created for community, for fellowship, and for worshipping God together as a body of believers…but we are not the only ones bringing glory to God and there is much more to being “the church” than that. We are to be seeking how we can serve Him and His people out of the pews, out of the building-and going to people where they are to share the Good News. Our relationship and salvation is not boiled down to what we do a few hours a week in a building with a certain name outside, and if anyone believes that-they have missed the entire message of God and who we are to be as His body.

    I hate that we have turned “Christianity” into religions instead of focusing on the relationship with Christ and the common bond we share through His incredible sacrifice. I guess it is because we live in a broken world and we are fallible humans-but I hate it. That is why I can never condone this kind of righteous and indignant arrogance that claims “We are the only ones who have it right and you are all condemned”, when that is NOT what God has ever called us to nor why He sent Jesus to save us from our sins.

    Thankfully, there is a movement in the churches of Christ to be more “missional” and to unite with the larger body of Christ to take His message to the world-tearing down the walls we have put up and recognizing our common ground in our Father. There are many churches who truly recognize the love and grace of our Father and relish in it, bask in it, and live in it-trying to strive to be more Christ-like and realizing that we really do have freedom in His name.

  398. “faithful” said:

    “Katherine you want to include lost people as Gods people. I won’t buy into that. Peopel that follow a different plan of salvation and are in a church never mentioned can’t be included. Do you include mormons and JW as God’s people?”

    No, “faithful”-I am not. You continue to miss my point, and more than that-what Jesus is really saying. I am not asking you to buy into anything that I am saying or believe-but what GOD Himself has called us to and has stated. That is what I have been trying to show you, but that is hard to see when you want to “fight against denominations”. You are actually ironically bringing more condemnation down upon yourself because you are creating your own denomination and pulling farther and farther away from His people-alienating yourself…and for what? I cannot understand that or how it can EVER be justified by an honest person.

    It doesn’t matter who I include-I don’t see lines, I see disciples of Christ who are trying to faithfully follow Him. God is the one who includes, your way is only a way of exclusion-extreme exclusion, and I will not be a part of that because it is not God’s way. You nor I can make that judgment, so stop doing it!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I have tried to explain that the church is not physical, but spiritual-and that you cannot find ANY institutional “church” in the Bible that exists today-because that is not what the church was ever meant to be. You yourself said that the church is made up of His people, and you are absolutely right-it is His people-those HE has chosen to save. There is not one single you can do about that, so why continue to fight it! It is a useless endeavor, especially when there are sooooooooooooooo many out there who do not know Christ AT ALL and need to hear His wonderful message of Good News of grace, hope and love!!

    You are only choosing to see what you want to see and believe what you want to, and until you decide to open your eyes and be willing to learn, I don’t know what more I can say to help you understand.

  399. “faithful” said:

    “Are you all aware that in the early 1800s around 1830 the church was growing it’s fastest while the bold style of preaching ws used like the gospel preachers you all are against are using. If using the same style of preaching is getting great results today (4 and working on 5 new congregations and 5 denominational preachers baptized in 8 years) why oppose it?”

    You actually need to go back and read your history because there is more to it than this, and I don’t even know what you are trying to prove by this. Johnny’s ways of preaching may have brought people to Christ-and that is great IF they are being taught the way of Christ and not Johnny’s way of doctrine. BUT, what he does on TV is manipulative, arrogant and only divides more than those he condemns. It is driven by an agenda, it does not even exhibit the love and grace of God AT ALL, and it is only a message of condemnation

    Like I have said before, I don’t see how ANY honest, Christ follower who have not been blinded by this stuff or are fearful to say anything could ever EVER support this kind of behavior or justify it, or join it with it. It would be a massive violation of my conscience, because it is sinful and something satan loves-because it only continues to divide and conquer the body of Christ…that is great ammo for satan because the more we divide-the more we will not be heading for unity so that we can fight him and his evil ways as ONE.

    Our goal is not to bring one person from one denomination to another!!! How much sense does that make? This whole idea of “rescuing someone from denominationalism” is useless and moot. If they are already in Jesus and have a relationship with Him, then rejoice!!! How many millions of other people out there don’t have any hope and TRULY NEED that great message of hope and love? That is what Jesus is about, and that is what I am about.

    Do you realize that we live in an incredibly post-Christian society? I have heard that soon they will be sending Africans to come be missionaries here in America because there are more Christians there than here. We live in a different society, culture,

    We have greatly institutionalized, Americanized, and consumerised church and Christianity, trying to place God in a box and wrapping it all up in the name of “religion”, and that is simply not the way it works.

    I am not saying I am perfect either; and it is sometimes difficult to wade through all of this, shaking off the biases and and focusing on what Christ is asking us to do and be-but we should only be preaching “Christ and Him crucified”, following Him faithfully, seeking out His will in this world, and loving our neighbors as we go along. We never know what seeds will be planted when we do this.

  400. From Faithful: Do you include mormons and JW as God’s people?

    Randy: This is always the line used when in a corner and faithful, you surely know the answer, dont you?

  401. From Faithful: Why do you fight the church so bad. I don’t see how anyone could spend a year studying with the church and then leave denying . Going back to denominationism?

    Is this the kettle calling the pot black? You are part of a denominated group too, my friend. Please check into the church of Christ and you will see how split they/we are…denominated into sects…same thing. Spent one year is way off…try 10, and other places too. I just wasnt studying with you guys, but others too ( church of Christ others)

  402. Dear Fellow Believers,

    I was raised a Southern Baptist. Then I went to a Bible believing church. Then I went to a great many others over the years. Let’s face it…we are greatly divided! Who is right and who is wrong? Paul got upset didn’t he when he condemned people or angels to Hell for bringing another Gospel ( yes, he even said there is really only one true Gospel)…what is it.

    Are we to try to all fit under a huge umbrella for the sake of not offending some poor souls who cannot handle too much truth? Should we become more politically correct, and choose our spiritual words with much caution?

    Ok, He who believes and is baptized shall be saved…you know it’s either true or it’s not…so call it heads or tails…you’ll find out one day whether you were right or not. Of course, it might be too late at that point.

    Who on earth was Jesus talking to in Matthew 7 and following…He wasn’t talking to Hitler, or Castro was He? No, he was talking to sincere people who thought they were carrying out His Doctrine…but He said depart from me I never Knew you…sincerity is no substitute for the Truth!!! Jesus did have a Doctrine…and the Apostles kept it going.

    How often do we take the Lord’s Supper…once a week? Once a year? Well how often would you think the Lord would want to be remembered. Yes, we worship God everyday…but the 1st Day of the week was remarkable. It did carry a significant meaning. Jesus said if you love me you will keep my commandments…Love does also cover a multitude of sins, but it can be specific.

    Which church is right? How many churches use the word Pastor for the Preacher when it never was used that way in the Word. Does it matter? We will know one day, and perhaps the safest place to be will be in the center of the circle of His Will.

    Isn’t that why we were put here…you know the Bible says it in its own letters…B..Basic..I..Instructions..B..Before..L..Leaving ..E..Earth

    Let us all search for the Complete Truth to the Best of Our Abilities with the Masters Help.

    Blessings to all,

    Brother Paul

  403. this is good training for you aint it faithful ?? 🙂 or as Johnny would say ” he is letting you gusy haddle the light work”

  404. Kat said: Johnny’s ways of preaching may have brought people to Christ-and that is great IF they are being taught the way of Christ and not Johnny’s way of doctrine. BUT, what he does on TV is manipulative, arrogant and only divides more than those he condemns. It is driven by an agenda, it does not even exhibit the love and grace of God AT ALL, and it is only a message of condemnation

    You dont even live here and you have picked up on this…just imagine how we all feel. You are so right and “faithful” down deep know this too. I could call his name out on here, but for now I wont because I think I know why he doesnt want his name known and I will honor that…

  405. hey faithless,
    you still are evading my question. whats the matter did i touch a nerve? and btw smart guy i know what “boog” im studying perhaps you could use some time in front of gods mirror yourself. im well aware of my own reflection.
    and randys right on one point you have a strong desire for something but it aint the lost………………..
    hows that for evil surmizing?{your spelling}
    lee

  406. From Faithful: Do you include mormons and JW as God’s people?

    Randy: I still cant believe you said this, but I know where it came from. Johnny has said this so much, you just repeat what he says without looking into it….what you are trying to do is lump every denomination together with the mormans and JWs and you should know better. I will give you sometime to tell what the diff is between JW, Mormans and the other denominations…btw, you are in a denomination too…

  407. So Katherine you refer to the Lord’s church as a denomination? Wow. What is it a segment of?

    1Ti 1:3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,
    (KJV)

  408. Lee I’ll type slow for you . I corrected the boog to book . Did you not read that ?

  409. Well Randy if you’re going to promote denomnationalism why won’t you include them all?

  410. Well Lee do you have a recording of the so called statement ? Can you remember everything you’ve ever said? I don’t remember any such statement

  411. 1Jo 3:4 ¶ Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
    (KJV)

  412. On May 24, 2008 at 8:18 pm faithful Said:
    1Jo 3:4 ¶ Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
    (KJV)

    perfect !

    per scripture, why would honoring Christ twice each week, having the Lords Supper say on each Thursday and each Sunday be sin per the abover scripture you gave. How would that transgress the law?

  413. thanks faithless,
    sorry the sarcasm escapes you,
    but you still wont say why your leader would lie.
    will you?
    hold on loosely but dont let go……..now thats a 70s
    reference to a 38 special song. to which im inferring
    dont hold too tight to johnnys coattail you may want to disassociate yourself later. if i can help you with any other colloquialism or obscure reference please dont let
    pride keep you from availing yourself to my help.
    lee

  414. It seems…sadly enough that Johnny has created himself another “disciple”. “faithful” here has bought into his beliefs hook, line, and sinker and doesn’t even realize it. Does Johnny even let people think for themselves or does he put people under some kind of trance?

    When the Lord comes back, it is not Johnny I will have to be answering to-but my God. I think I will continue to put my faith and trust in Him.

  415. There is no biblical command that one must take the Lord’s Supper each first day of the week. It’s just not there. The interpretation that the churches of Christ have taken are fine – because we are told to observe the LS regularly – and there’s nothing wrong with observing the LS weekly. However, that regularity is up to interpretation.

    And, there’s no BCV that says that we are sinning if we do not take the LS each first day of the week. It’s just not there

    sorry Nathan, I hi-jacked your comment from my blog-I know you dont mind

  416. Faithful, I thought you would have replied with the answer by now, I know what Johnny would say to this, dont you?

    On May 24, 2008 at 8:25 pm randy Said:
    On May 24, 2008 at 8:18 pm faithful Said:
    1Jo 3:4 ¶ Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
    (KJV)

    perfect !

    per scripture, why would honoring Christ twice each week, having the Lords Supper say on each Thursday and each Sunday be sin per the abover scripture you gave. How would that transgress the law?

  417. Randy , you need repent and get right with God and start taking it on Sunday before you start thinking about another day. Don’t you think that would be a good start.

  418. sorry but you proved nothing…prove its a sin to honor Christ twice a week…Thursday and Sunday Lords Supper….per scripture, show me how that transgresses the law, you havient even come close. I know what Johnny would say–you should too by now

  419. Well Lee I asked if you had a recording of the statement and you never answered so I’ll just think you don’t have any proof for your accusation.

  420. I never said we couldn’t honor Him another day. Is the Lords supper the only way to honor Him?

  421. You could have scrooled up about 4 post the first time. You were just eager to accuse

  422. in other words you cant prove its a sin…thanks Faithful.

    There is no biblical command that one must take the Lord’s Supper each first day of the week. It’s just not there. The interpretation that the churches of Christ have taken are fine – because we are told to observe the LS regularly – and there’s nothing wrong with observing the LS weekly. However, that regularity is up to interpretation.

  423. “faithful” said:

    “So Katherine you refer to the Lord’s church as a denomination? Wow. What is it a segment of?”

    Well, the institutional “church of Christ” is a denomination when you boil it down. I know we say we try to be “non-denominational” because we have no headquarters and are so called “autonomous”, but if you look at the definition-we are technically one…and autonomy? Right-that is why this church won’t fellowship with that church, and we are so incredibly divided over issues God never even made issues.

    We have a heritage, we have a history-and it is absolutely vital that we learn from it-those who choose to deny it are only doing it to their detriment. Denying it and ignoring it will never change the truth or history-no matter how much you want something different to be true. The entire premise of the restoration movement was to be “Christians only, not the only Christians” and look how far that idea has strayed. The whole idea was to recognize our unity in Christ-but somewhere along the way some people greatly distorted that message and decided to create their own sect, creating “church of Christ” doctrine that has been passed through the ages with no questions asked to unsuspecting people. Thankfully, many have been able to discover the truth for themselves by reading the Bible and understanding we don’t have it all completely right, and that there actually WILL be other people in heaven than our little sect.

    People that are in the kind of sect that Johnny is in, and that you claim to be a part of have made your own worse denomination than those you condemn-without even realizing it or just turning a blind eye to the truth. It is pretty ironic, indeed.

    To say we are exactly like the church that began at Pentecost, nothing has changed since then, etc. are all illogical statements and if you boil it down-very untruthful…and it is even more untruthful and arrogant to think that our branch of Christianity has it ALL figured out and no one else does. It is really bad theology and dishonest. That goes for any branch or sect of Christianity that claims to be the “one true church”.

    Therefore, like I have said many MANY times before-the church is made up of His people, and is not based on whatever institutional church one may be a member of. What matters is that they are a member of the larger BODY of Christ, wear His name, and submit to Him. That is how we recognize followers of Christ.

  424. 2Th 3:7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;

  425. BTW, you did use the typical Johnny answer…see how well he has your brains…..you even say the things he does…..now prove its a sin…..you have failed to do so….its almost scary if you would say honoring Christ in the Lords Supper twice each week is sin……that worrys me for you….oops, I alomost used your real name just now

  426. Are you to forsake the assembly? That would be a good place to start making things right Randy

  427. This is why you can’t see what’s really happening to you

    2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
    11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

    Keep studing that denominationalism the devil loves you for it

  428. Randy , What is you big problem with Johnny? You keep going back to him.

    You remind me of school girl with a secret crush.
    Or is it the father figure problem I ask you about before that you didn’t want to talk about?

  429. youre keeping me up dude. 🙂

    On May 24, 2008 at 9:23 pm faithful Said:
    Are you to forsake the assembly? That would be a good place to start making things right Randy

    for started you dont have a clue what youre talkn bout, And you quoted that verse out of context…maybe we can have lunch sometime, not to try and win each other to the other side, but just as friends, so you know I am not being mean spirited here

  430. On May 24, 2008 at 9:30 pm faithful Said:
    Randy , What is you big problem with Johnny? You keep going back to him.

    You remind me of school girl with a secret crush.
    Or is it the father figure problem I ask you about before that you didn’t want to talk about?

    lol….you should do comedy. I am just doing what you guys do each week on TV…following this logic would mean Johnny has a crush on Jackie Poe…..serious, ets have lunch sometime

  431. I’m also not keeping you up. I don’t control you . You have free will . You’ve proven that . Or are you beyond feeling?

  432. I feel bad for you. You can say youre not my friend…thats really sad. And Im not an enemy of the cross…youre so far off on that. You are being more controled that people into “witchcraft” ….know what I mean..later dude

    On May 24, 2008 at 9:42 pm faithful Said:
    But I’m not your friend. I would like to be but you’re an enemy of the cross

  433. Katie, I know who “faithful” is an dits sad that he has become this way. He has heard Johnny so much act this way that he now thinks he has to act the same way. He is far from the tuff guy he is presenting himself. H e seemed to be likeable at one time, but now he seems under the control of others…very sad. I could say more, but I wont….its so sad though that he is actin so unloving ….

  434. “faithful” you are the one being controlled-and it is not by God, but you cannot even see it-I feel sorry for you. You have been laden down with a burden of man-made doctrine and have lost sight of the ONE who saves and loves you. I truly hate that for you.

    Get away from the doctrines of Johnny and find the peace, love, and amazing grace that God offers. Then you will be set free from these burdens.

  435. I mean I understand defending your beliefs and I get defensive and even sarcastic from time to time but to say the things he’s saying now, is really uncalled for even the in the midst of a religious discussion or should I say especially in the midst of a religious discussion.

  436. I absolutely hate what Johnny is doing-it is just plain awful how he can have this much influence over people. Just watching him teach on his TV show makes me uncomfortable-unfortunately I can see satan’s influence more than I can see Jesus coming through. I REALLY hate that-for him and all of those he is leading.

  437. This is a pretty good summation of these people:

    ‘Go to this people and say,
    “You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
    you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.”
    For this people’s heart has become calloused;
    they hardly hear with their ears,
    and they have closed their eyes.
    Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
    hear with their ears,
    understand with their hearts
    and turn, and I would heal them.’ ~Acts 28:26-27

  438. I know, Katie-and unfortunately a lot of it is driven by fear, which makes me even more sad and angry. It misses out on so much of who God is and what His message is. It is a sad ordeal.

  439. The thing that is interesting to me Katherine is that in all of these discussions, I feel true compassion for those that seem to be completely unhappy (something I would assume as per “faithful”s vicious attacks lately). But it seems to me that there is no compassion from his end of things. You would think that a person who is truly trying to serve the Lord and preach the Word, would feel compassion for someone who they felt was lost. Like I get a completely different picture from Corey… Corey I feel like you have sincere love for others. Faithful.. not so much.

  440. Faithful, again I will tell the very word from Jason ( ex Church of Christ preacher from your assmebly ) he said he felt like he had escaped from something when he left..,ask yourself, why would he make such a statement….answer: UNDER BONDAGE !!!

  441. Katie said:

    “The thing that is interesting to me Katherine is that in all of these discussions, I feel true compassion for those that seem to be completely unhappy (something I would assume as per “faithful”s vicious attacks lately). But it seems to me that there is no compassion from his end of things. You would think that a person who is truly trying to serve the Lord and preach the Word, would feel compassion for someone who they felt was lost. Like I get a completely different picture from Corey… Corey I feel like you have sincere love for others. Faithful.. not so much.”

    I know-I think the same thing. I feel bad for them because they are so wrapped up in bondage they cannot even see it, but it gives them no excuse to treat people like this. Unfortunately, Katie-this is just a tip of the iceberg. I have been attacked much worse than this by people claiming to be “ministers” and “Christians”.

    Corey certainly does not do this-He believes in the grace and compassion of God and exhibits it, and these guys could definitely learn to do the same.

  442. Randy you say we met at a tent meeting. I can’t remeber that . Which tent meeting?

  443. Randy if we are not to take the Lord’s supper every week. When should we take it and who gets to pick when?

  444. Randy I can’t nor won’t surmise on Jason’s mind. You seem to want me to join in with your guessing game really bad , but I’m not interested

  445. On May 25, 2008 at 1:11 pm faithful Said:
    Randy I can’t nor won’t surmise on Jason’s mind. You seem to want me to join in with your guessing game really bad , but I’m not interested

    Honestly, youre heart has fooled you once again. I have no desire for the games above. I was just merely chatting bout it – you read inot thing too much sometimes. And yes, you are interested,evidenced by your williness to continue caming back with a reply.

  446. Again, Jesus said “as often as”. Again, proove its a sin to honor Christ each Thursday and each Sunday by having the Lords Supper – you cant and neither has any preacher yet. First of all not many will be so bold to say such a thing, to say honoring Christ is sin…nobody will dare do. Som if I want to honor Him each Thursday and each Sunday, I have not sinned…and you cant prove it i sin to do so, which cuts against the very doctrine you were taught “Sunday Only”. Well, I have to go, I will scroll up another day. Take care.

  447. hey faithless,
    glad to see you can listen and learn as evidenced
    by your most recent spelling of surmise.
    and i thought you werent listening.
    let me know if i can be of further assistance.
    lee

  448. Faithful, I have read over many of your commnets and I think you have the idea that everyone on here is lawless, when we speak of freendom in Christ. We do not mean Freedom from Doctrine, Freedom from Commands,
    Freedom from Law, Freedom from Obedience, nor Freedom from Obligations. We mean freedom from asumptions/ freedom from man-made laws that you want to bind on others. Again, there is no biblical command that one must take the Lord’s Supper each first day of the week. It’s just not there. The interpretation that the churches of Christ have taken are fine – because we are told to observe the LS regularly – and there’s nothing wrong with observing the LS weekly. However, that regularity is up to interpretation and you have no right to take your views and opinion, binding them as law upon others. The bible does not and you can not !

  449. In Christ we have freedom from three specific areas of bondage. In the Lord the shackles of sin are broken, and we are freed from its power and guilt (Romans 6:18). We are emancipated from the demands of the law of Moses (Galatians 5:1-4), which could not free those under it from bondage to sin (Romans 8:2-4). And we are set at liberty from the chains of the “commandments and doctrines of men,” “self-imposed religion” with its “regulations” based upon “an appearance of wisdom” (Colossians 2:20-23). As Paul, we must “not yield submission even for an hour” to regulations men would impose that the Lord has not, “that the truth of the gospel might continue with” us (Galatians 2:3-5).

  450. Randy you haven’t honored Him Sunday, Thursday or any other days. How can you honor him by not obeying?

  451. Randy I didn’t go to the tent meeting in Bassett. That was before I OBEYED . I was still watching on tv at that time. So you must have me mixed up with someone else

  452. “faithful” you have turned a discussion into personal attacks-which does not surprise me because it is EXACTLY what Johnny does when someone tries to share truth with him…but it is rude and arrogant. I am glad you were able to find Christ, but I am sorry-you have been greatly misled by Johnny and are portraying the same divisive, unChrist-like, and condemning attitude that Johnny does, and it is not good. You are like a clone of him-spouting his same beliefs and attacking the same way…sadly you cannot see it. I am sorry that Johnny has trained you and has you so blinded to see the damage you are doing.

    You, nor Johnny, nor anyone on earth is God-so stop acting like it-you do not have that power, never have, and never will.

    God reigns!! 🙂

  453. “faithful said”:

    “That was before I OBEYED”

    What did you obey, “faithful”-what Johnny told you to believe or were you able to come to your own conclusions?

  454. On May 25, 2008 at 8:30 pm faithful Said:
    Randy I didn’t go to the tent meeting in Bassett. That was before I OBEYED . I was still watching on tv at that time. So you must have me mixed up with someone else

    I guess I do, but still Katherine is correct, listen at to yourself, how they have you acting.

  455. On May 25, 2008 at 8:28 pm faithful Said:
    Randy you haven’t honored Him Sunday, Thursday or any other days. How can you honor him by not obeying?

    There you go again, listening to the puppet master. You have no idea who I am, nor where I attend. You have let the puppet master fill your thoughts with his. Think for yourself and not from what you have been told. You know not what you say…

  456. On May 25, 2008 at 8:28 pm faithful Said:
    Randy you haven’t honored Him Sunday, Thursday or any other days. How can you honor him by not obeying?

    btm line, you are attacking me and avoiding the issue. Prove per scripture that I am sinning if I honor Christ Thursday and Sunday by having the Lords Supper each of those days — you cant, and no preacher yet has. To say its sin to honor Christ would be very bold, Johnny would say it, cant you be as bold as the puppet master?

  457. Faithful, read these again…And we are set at liberty from the chains of the “commandments and doctrines of men,” “self-imposed religion” with its “regulations” based upon “an appearance of wisdom” (Colossians 2:20-23). As Paul, we must “not yield submission even for an hour” to regulations men would impose that the Lord has not, “that the truth of the gospel might continue with” us (Galatians 2:3-5).

    Again Faithful, show where its a sin to honor Christ thru the Lords Supper each Thursday and each Sunday. See, this throws you off somewhat, because you know you cant call that a si, but then you hear that Sunday is the ONLY day, so now you are caught in the crossroads, not knowing what to say. Dont be as brave as the puppet master and call honoring Christ each Thursday and each Sunday a sin. “ yield not submission even for an hour” to regulations men would impose that the Lord has not, seems like the Lord said “as ofetn as”…Johnny says ONLY Sunday. I really wish you would break those chains off and see this, but I fear the strings from the puppet master are too strong…very sad.

  458. Faithful, you think Katherine, Katie, myself and others are just coming on here to fued with you? We are only trying to break the strings of the puppet master. I know how you feel, I once acted just like you. I emailed about every preacher in this town and confronted them and I did the same with my friends and family. I was a real jerk with an agenda, and it wasnt once led of the Lord, but of the puppet master. I really believd what he said and begun to be mean spirited as he toward others. Dude, this isnt what Christ came for. I know how good the puppet master makes things sound, I fell for this too, but I looked at both sides and seen I was being led the wrong way. I hope you see this one day…

  459. Exactly, Randy-I have no desire to feud or attack “faithful” or anyone, but only show them what they are too blind to see…

    because I can see the damage Johnny has done and is doing-and want “faithful” and anyone who is under this kind of bondage and is not acting like Christ with the impression that they are actually justifying this in His name-to find the freedom and grace in Christ-while never being under bondage to men and their beliefs.

    I am glad, Randy that you could get out from under him and find this for yourself!! 🙂 I pray that same for “faithful” and those like him, too.

  460. Mt 11:16 ¶ But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,
    17 And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented.
    18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.
    19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

    In these verses Jesus was saying his critics would never be satisfied. You all won’t be either. I don’t believe you’re interested in the truth , only hiding the gospel and getting as many people to go to hell with you as possable

  461. Randy this site is “answering the church of Christ” yet all we get from youis more questions.Shouldn’t you be giving us answers instead of asking more questions? Maybe you should look for a site called “questioning the church of Christ” . That may be more your speed!

  462. You’re up early, faithful.

    Point of clarification. We are all interested in understanding God and the Truth. What exactly is Truth? Or, who, to be more exact?

    “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” John 14:6

    That’s what it all boils down to, my friend. Not the name on the sign in front of the place where you worship, not whether or not you use a piano in worship, not the frequency of your observation of the Lord’s Supper – but Jesus.

    Now, as to our interest in hiding the gospel, we need to ask… what is “the gospel”?

    It’s pretty easily found in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4:

    “Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.”

    Nobody here is trying to hide that Good News.

    As to the part about going to hell, well, I put my trust in Jesus (Eph 1:13), and so I am counting on his work to keep me from that terrible place. I hope to help as many folks as possible to escape that fate as well.

    Mr. Answer

  463. On May 26, 2008 at 5:44 am faithful Said:
    Randy are we commanded to assmble on Thursday?

    On May 26, 2008 at 6:00 am faithful Said:
    Randy this site is “answering the church of Christ” yet all we get from youis more questions.Shouldn’t you be giving us answers instead of asking more questions? Maybe you should look for a site called “questioning the church of Christ” . That may be more your speed!

    The point is – are we commnaded to have the Lords Supper each and every Sunday. And, would it be sin to do so each Thursday and each Sunday. BTW, sometimes you answer questions with questions. Far as the Lords Supper: You say it must be taken each Sunday – my answer is I can take it each Thursday and each Sunday and you cant prove its a sin and that frustrates you. Im not here to make you mad or anything, but you have failed to prove your case, so it is as the site calls it “answering the church of Christ” I answered the claim that one must take the Lords Supper Sunday ONLY – you however cant prove its sin to take it on other days each week and Sunday too – no need to ask Johnny and crew, they cant answer this either. You have already repeated what they would say ” show me Thursday in the bible” come on now, is that proving its a sin…NOPE !

  464. Hi Rick! Good to have you back. Hope y’all had a great time with the Father yesterday.

  465. Yes, faithful-quit making accusations that you cannot legitimately back up by attempting to “play God”.

    Why do you continue to do this? Does it bring you some kind of joy to tear others down and build yourself up?

  466. “faithful”…

    If we were not interested in the truth and were trying to “hide the gospel” none of us would come on here and say anything. The TRUTH is found in Jesus and HIM ONLY, not in man made cofC doctrines-those will not save, Jesus will and does!! That is why we follow Him, put our faith and trust in Him; and share that with others. That is why I come on here to speak out against this divisive and arrogant behavior-because it does not exhibit the fruits of Christ and it should never be looked over or let go, and certainly not justified. No one who calls themselves a faithful follower of Christ should be able to get away with that kind of behavior when we can see how much damage it is doing for the cause of Christ.

    God wants ALL people to be saved, and so do I-or I would keep my mouth shut, but I cannot-for God has revealed His amazing grace, love, and mercy in my life and I WANT everyone to come to know it!! Even those who persecute me-Jesus said we are to love and pray for everyone, and that is what I strive to do.

    I am sorry you have been so swallowed up by this that you cannot even see what you are doing-you have been trained to do it without giving it a second thought or without even examining the lack of logic behind your statements. I truly pray that God will one day release you from this burden and that you will find true freedom and grace in His NAME.

  467. On May 26, 2008 at 8:52 am faithful Said:
    It’s a sin for you any day Randy because you have not obeyed they gospel

    Faithful, you dont need to attack me just because you arent able to give an answer. I use to act just like you, maybe worse, so I know you can change and come from the bondage youre under. Why be so hateful and combative all of the time, does this please Johnny; does this please God. I think we all know who it pleases.

  468. hi faithless,
    ive heard it said that most men wont ask for directions
    when they are lost.
    instead they ride around in hopes of their inner compass
    kicking in. the problem you suffer from is that you get a false reading because your standing to close to johnny.
    he has become your magnetic north,so you cant rely on your readings.
    if you step away from him for just a while it should all clear up.
    start speaking to everyone in a civil manner and i might give you your “ful” title back.
    lee

  469. Thanks Nathan for the welcome back (haven’t been away..just in the shadows) and yes I believe we had a good day of worship with Father God yesterday.

  470. I was visited this afternoon by Johnny and Mark (Mark is the Vandola Church member who attends Norm’s assembly now). First time that I have met Johnny in person. Our conversation was cordial and I saw the polite side of Johnny. He really did not addres in any detail our differences, I beleive out of courtesy because my grandchildren were with me. I was invited to “discuss” on television our differences, but of course I declined.

  471. Katherine you think telling lost people they are lost is tearing them down? That is exactly the example I needed to show thet you are hiding the gospel. Thankyou for providing that so quickly

  472. Stop putting words in people’s mouths, faithful. You are the one claiming that everyone else here is lost. Katherine didn’t say that.

    The only thing proven here is that you have taken your responses from the Hyperconservative Dirty Tactic Playbook©. I would guess the Playbook© is required reading in the “preaching school” you guys are running.

    Speaking of which, boy, would I love to be a fly on the wall in that “preaching school”. What do you call the class when you learn how to be mean-spirited and call it sanctified?

  473. faithful wrote:
    Show where they were divided ?

    1 Corinthians 1: 10I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. 11My brothers, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.”

    13Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul? 14I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15so no one can say that you were baptized into my name.

    Paul condemns their divisions, just as we ought to condemn divisions today, but to say that there were no divisions among the first Christians is erroneous.

  474. “but of course I declined.”

    Of course you did. The baptist doctrine will stand scritney or light. Your response and others likewise to his invite was a major factor in getting me to study for my self to see if they were telling the truth. So thankyou for the decline . Maybe it will help someone else ask themselves why you can’t defend what you teach.

  475. Randy you just don’t like the answer you’ve been given. Your argument is the same as the atheist. Debunk but no position or proof. Where are your verses to support your side? Remember , this is answering the church not questioning the church.

  476. On May 27, 2008 at 5:24 pm faithful Said:
    Randy you just don’t like the answer you’ve been given. Your argument is the same as the atheist. Debunk but no position or proof. Where are your verses to support your side? Remember , this is answering the church not questioning the church.

    Mitch, I havent seen an answer from you. Your mocking what you have heard…

  477. On May 27, 2008 at 5:14 pm Mitch Said:
    So you are saying Christ can be divided?

    No, Christ isnt divided. Are you saying everyone ( even babes in Christ ) must understand everything/every verse perfectly the same to be in unity? Johnny and Norm disagreed upon a verse before Norm was hired, was Christ divided then? When a person is first born again, how much does he understand? You see how simple it is…if you are basing unity upon everyone agreeing perfectly on everything, you will not find that. Tell ya what, have your assembly of folks read the entire book of Romans and then ask them questions, do you think they all will “speak the same things”, come on now, you surely can see this

  478. “The only thing proven here is that you have taken your responses from the Hyperconservative Dirty Tactic Playbook©. I would guess the Playbook© is required reading in the “preaching school” you guys are running.

    Speaking of which, boy, would I love to be a fly on the wall in that “preaching school”. What do you call the class when you learn how to be mean-spirited and call it sanctified?”

    I wonder that too….

  479. Randy , you have studied with the church for like a year. I know they have been over and over all of this with you . You don’t want to see. Why should I think that I can help someone who doesn’t want help?

  480. faithless,
    i see your compass is still giving erroneous directions.
    step away from johnny. danger! danger! will robinson.
    now thats a reference to a 60s tv show.
    looks like your still not getting your “ful” back yet.
    lee

  481. “faithful” said:

    “You don’t want to see. Why should I think that I can help someone who doesn’t want help?”

    Interesting you would say that-because this describes you perfectly. You don’t WANT to see that what we believe or saying is truth-you just want to hold to the coattails of Johnny and the gang.

    I’ve got news for you: it won’t save you.

    In the words of Monty Python and the Holy Grail:

    Run away! Run away!!

  482. I wonder if part of the problem that you are discussing is that it deals with a “church” salvation. There is no “church” that is going to be saved if that word is used to define a local congregation of people. There is a church that is going to be saved if that word is used to describe the church that Christ founded. Everyone must seek to become a member of that church, the one true church.

    Does the congregation you attend matter? Yes and no. As far as the name goes, no. As far as some helping you become a member of the one church while others hinder, yes.

  483. Good word, aggie03.

    The difference is that a hyperconservative church of Christ would say that the only true “church that Christ founded” must have the name, “church of Christ”, even though in Scripture there is no reference to a singular church of Christ congregation (ala “the church of Christ at Ephesus”), and in fact there are many other names for the Church at that time (church of God, The Way, etc).

    But you are right. And I would add that the church that Christ founded can be found anywhere where true followers of Christ are located. The name on the sign out front doesn’t matter a hill of beans.

  484. You’re right. The name on the sign no more assures one of salvation than wearing a team logo makes one a professional athlete. In fact, I’ve noticed that if you talk to many people who claim to be non-denominational (regardless of whether they are members of the Church of Christ denomination or not) they will often belie their true feelings or understanding if you talk to them long enough. The minute that you hear someone refer to a group of other congregation using the same nomenclature as themselves, they have shown that they truly are, at the core of their understanding, denominational in nature.

    I truly believe that the Christianity taught in the Scriptures is anti-un-non-denominational. If we are not constantly pulling ourselves in that direction, then we have a sectarian nature which will not serve us well on the day of judgment. If someone thinks this way, does it mean that they are not a Christian? Let’s let the Lord decide that. Will thinking that way cost a man his soul? Let’s let the Lord decide that, too. Is it a good thing to think in a sectarian manner? Most certainly not! Let us all, as much as we are able, tear down any sectarian vestiges that we see in our own faith and strive toward the goal of living a life that both pleases and glorifies our God and Father in heave.

  485. With regard to the OP, I would like to add that denominations are in the Bible – and in every instance where they appear they are called schisms or divisions, and they are never talked about in a positive way. Rather than building different places to worship the “way that I want” or so that “I can believe that I want to believe”, Christians were told to work together and hammer out all of their differences until they were unified in spirit, understanding and objective. Modern religion in America, in the world for that matter, as concerns this ideal is woefully void of biblical unity. It is a sad state when Christians are not willing to bear with another’s differences and submit their liberty to the consciences of others (cf. 1 Corinthians 10 and Romans 14).

    Any cry that includes the standard of “join our church for salvation” is just another sectarian division and a step away from the unity and mindset of Christians in the first century. Rather than calling people to a group, the call should be to seek Christ. If we are all really seeking to please and serve the Christ of God, then we can begin to work from there.

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