Norm and Mark visit a Baptist Church

I just received this message from (I assume) the pastor of Vandola Baptist in Danville.  It is a first hand testimony of what happens when one of our three hosts pays your church a visit.  

“Our church, Vandola Baptist in Danville, was visited by Norm Fields and Mark McMinnis on Wednedsay, April 16. It just so happened that this particular night was the last night of our Spring Revival with Dr. Ron Crawford, a former pastor and current President of the Baptist Theological Seminary at Richmond. As you would expect there was a “discussion” with Fields and McMinnis after the service.

Let me share with you that from the very beginning of our worship service these two representatives of the churches of Christ displayed nothing less than utter contempt for our worship and our membership. We began the service with a responsive reading that was printed in our worship bulletin. The congregation stood for the responsive reading which was followed by a hymn (accompanied by musical instruments of course). Fields and McMinnis remained seated throughout all of this as well as at the conclusion of the service when we stood and sang an invitational hymn. I, by the way, went to the pew where they were seated toward the back of the sanctuary where I greeted them and sat with them during the preaching of the message by our guest speaker. Norm diligently wrote notes and I assume points of contention throughout the message.

As they left from the sanctuary, Norm asked Dr. Crawford if he could talk with him to inquire about some of the things he had said during the message. Dr. Crawford informed Norm that he was leaving to go back to Richmond as soon as he finished greeting folks but that he would consent to give him a few moments. Norm had already began questioned Dr. Crawford on the outside porch when I walked up. I interrupted them and asked Norm directly if he was using any audio or video devices to record the conversation and he responded that he was unable to bring either because of some malfunction with his equipment. He asked me if I was using such and I replied that I was not and if I had been I would have told him in advance that I was and that he should do the same whenever he used recording devices. (Should anyone see or hear a recording of this discussion that I am describing on any of the CoC broadcasts be sure to call on air and ask if deliberate lying is a teaching of Scripture.)

At any rate, it didn’t take long for Dr. Crawford to detect Norm’s attempt to haggle over perceived syntax errors and so Dr. Crawford dismissed him and said he would speak no further with him. Norm, of course, began his spill about “Crawford’s refusal to speak the truth of God”. Unfortunately, at this point, one of our not so diplomatic members spoke out of turn and said that he would be glad to meet Norm out back to take care of his questions to which Norm ask if the man was threatening him. I injected that no one was going to threaten him (I did notice that Norm left from the porch area where we were rather quickly). I attempted to explain to Norm that one of the reasons folks became so upset with them was certainly because of their blatant display of contempt in our worship service. I asked Norm why he had refused to stand and/or participate in our worship to which he responded that he could not (spoken with the perceived implication that he could not because our service was not true worship approved of God). As a result I asked Norm if that was the case, then why did he come then to our worship service knowing that he “could not” out of his pure conscience participate. He said he came to learn and to give us an opportunity to explain why we did what we did and what we believed. I refuted that notion with the comment that he already knew what Baptist taught, how Baptist worshipped and what Baptist believed and that the only reason he was there was to continue to show his disdain for Baptist people as he did each week on his broadcast program. With that we parted ways.

Can’t wait to see how this is presented on the CoC local broadcast. Should Norm be reading this blog, let me apologize to him for any perceived rude behavior on the part of any of our folks. We are not perfect people and there are still those who become easily angered and/or offended in spirited debate especially when agitated by those who know which buttons to push.”

 

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457 thoughts on “Norm and Mark visit a Baptist Church

  1. I am a part of the Church of Christ heritage. I came across your post while tag-surging. I’m ashamed that there are those within our fellowship (C of C) that act in such a childish way. If it were possible to apologize for them, I would. It was disrespectful of them to act that way towards spirit minded and/or spirit filled people. We are not all that way.

    Peace to you.

    Jason

  2. Hi Jason,

    Thanks for your comment, and I appreciate your thoughts on this. I took a look at your blog, and really enjoyed reading the articles you posted. In fact, I might re-post one or two of them here, if it’s okay with you.

    Please feel free to visit often! We’d love your input.

    Blessings,
    Nathan

  3. I am the daughter of the pastor of Vandola Baptist and I was sure to watch Norm’s program on Cable TV yesterday evening, knowing that his visit to Vandola would be mentioned. And it was. Mr. Fields received a phone call from me when he began to speak of my father and the members at Vandola as unsaved people. It strikes me odd that Norm in all his quoting of scripture could not seem to reconcile my arguments that salvations comes from Jesus Christ. I am beginning to wonder if the church of Christ even acknowledges Christ at all. Norm, on air, last night hardly mentioned the name of Jesus and accused of me not being saved because I prayed to God and asked forgiveness of my sins. Which is very comical to me that he would tell me such a thing. So because I believe in the Son of God, believe in his life, death, and ressurection, confessed my sins to him and received forgiveness, repented of those sins… I’m not saved. But he is because he just believed and got dunked. Interesting. The Bible I read speaks of Jesus Christ as THE way, as the Savior, as the Son of God… and though the Bible mentions baptistm, I don’t believe I have ever read the words “holy water” in reference to a person being immersed. It seems to me that Mr. Fields is hardly the person that should be condemning others or calling people “unsaved”, when he himself seems to be uncomfortable with the concept of salvation through Christ Jesus.

  4. Nathan,

    I don’t mind if you re-post at all. Thanks for taking the time to look. I have permission from the authors to put their content online, so there isn’t any problem there.

    Peace,
    Jason

  5. Hi Katie,

    I’m glad you called in on Norm’s show, and glad you stopped by this blog. I would encourage you to poke around this blog a bit to get an understanding of the things that these men teach. The reason is that they’ve debated and discussed doctrine with people from just about every Christian background, and they love to do this. But, they are prepared. On the other hand, I find that the majority of people who call in their program don’t know squat about the CofC, and so don’t know how to discuss with them. I didn’t see the program, and so can’t comment on your discussion with Norm, although it sounds from your description that you handled yourself well.

    One of the things I want this blog to be is a place where people can come and find out about hyperconservative Churches of Christ before they attempt to confront these men. There are plenty of holes in their doctrine, but if you don’t know their doctrine, you can’t know the holes. And they are also quite good at putting people very quickly on the defensive. Folks need to learn how to put the shoe on the other foot.

    Another good educational blog is http://churchesofchrist.wordpress.com – started by a former CofC person. There are many others out there – I will eventually get a blogroll together so it is easier to find them from here.

    But again, make sure before you confront them again that you understand their POV – otherwise they are really, really good at attacking. The worst thing you can do is call in without being prepared, because it will just give them ammunition for later broadcasts, for fundraising in other parts of the country, and it will embolden their small but loyal CofC viewing audience.

    I’m sorry that they chose to “invade” the church where your father preaches, but on the flip side, it could be a good opportunity for Vandola Baptist to understand these men and what they teach, as well as gaining a better understanding of Scripture and your own doctrine.

    Blessings, and come again soon!
    Nathan

  6. Thanks Nathan,

    I knew a bit about their doctrine before calling in last night. I think I put him on the defensive a few times too. It was a good debate I thought. But you are absolutely right, in order to effectively debate their POV, education is vital.

    I will look into more of the sites you posted and gain further knowledge so that if I am toe to toe again with any of the CofC followers I will be that much more prepared.

    God bless,
    Katie

  7. Hi again, Katie,

    Didn’t mean to insinuate that you were going in blind – I’ve just seen so many times where people call in at the heat of the moment (heck, I’ve done it myself).

    And these men tend to bring out the worst in others. Which has fascinated me for the longest time, considering that they are supposed to be trying to win non-CofC folks to their doctrine. They seem to think they can catch more flies with vinegar than with honey.

    Blessings,
    Nathan

  8. Nathan,

    You’re fine, didn’t feel you were saying anything wrong. 🙂

    And you are right about trying to catch more flies with vinegar than honey. I guess I shouldn’t be so surprised but it really never ceases to amaze me the way people will misconstrue God’s Word to fit their needs or their argument.

    In Christ,
    Katie

  9. Thanks Jason for your comments. I am very much aware that the attitudes displayed by our 3 local CoC leaders are representative of a small group of antagonists.

    As I wrote in the note above, I expressed to Norm at the conclusion of the service that I felt he showed nothing but contempt for our worship during his visit. On Norm Fields April 17 televised broadcast he took offense to my accusation that he and Mark had shown contempt toward our church and that I evidently didn’t know the meaning of the word contempt. Well, let’s see. Thorndike Barnhart Comprehensive Desk Dictionary’s definition of the word contempt is as follows: “1. The feeling that a person, act or thing is mean, low or worthless; scorn; a despising. 2. condition of being scorned or despised; disgrace. 3. Law. Disobedience to or open disrespect for the rules or decisions of a law court, a lawmaking body, etc. Syn. 1. disdain.”

    During his broadcast, Norm freely expressed that he had a disdain for Baptist teaching of Scripture and for Baptist worship. In essence he explained that our worship was not worthy of his participation or acknowledgement because “we were not Scriptural“ and “we were not Christian“. He knew before he came to our church what we taught, how we taught it and how we worshipped. To display his disdain for our “worthless worship” he chose to remain seated during our responses, prayers and singing. If his attitude of publicly declared disdain (to look down on, to consider beneath oneself), if his stated perception that Baptist teaching and style of worship is low or worthless in comparison to his church of Christ meetings and if his blatant public display of disrespect for the elements of our worship service in our own building among our own people is not a vivid display of the definition of contempt then the word should be removed from the dictionary.

    But, of course, I did come to realize through all of this that Norm Fields and associates basically consider all Christians outside of their CoC fellowship as unsaved ignorant pagans who promote a false god. Therefore I should not be surprised at their hostile (of an enemy or enemies; opposed; unfriendly; unfavorable; antagonistic) action toward us.

  10. Rick and Katie,

    I am sorry that these guys have given you an awful impression and left a bad taste in your mouth for those in the “Church of Christ”. I can tell you that they most definitely do not speak for all of us, and I am almost positive that they would not even see me, a member of the “Church of Christ” as a real Christian because I do not fall in line with the majority of their beliefs, and will not stand in the throne room of condemnation. It is incredibly sad and disheartening for me to see men like this, especially those who CALL themselves “ministers” act in this manner and then have the nerve to actually attach the name of Jesus onto it and believe they are acting for Him. You are right, Katie-Jesus is not a part of that, neither is love, mercy, grace, compassion…or any of the attributes that encompass who Jesus REALLY is or why He came to earth to die on a cross for our sins. He died for THE BODY of Christ, not this church or that church-but for His people, and that has never been limited to whatever name is outside your building. Even our own heritage was began with a plea for unity and to say “We are Christians only, but not the only Christians” and that has been turned into something completely different and wrong to the core. The even worse thing is that they are very smug in this idea and are so blinded that not even the Word of God can make them aware of their blindness. It is all about debating, defending, and pointing out everyone else’s failures and “false doctrine” when they in fact are the ones doing the exact same thing they accuse everyone else of. Yet, most other people can see it for what it is and them for who they are. They will be their own downfall, unfortunately.

    Thankfully, there are MANY in the “Church of Christ” who embrace the meaning of God’s grace, recognize and embrace the larger body of Christ while still honoring our heritage-but ashamed of the sectarian and divisive side that these guys represent.

    Anyway, I just wanted to throw that in for Rick, Katie, and anyone else who is reading. Please know they are only a minority-unfortunately they tend to be the most vocal, but are still few in number.

    Blessings to you all~

  11. Katie,
    Again I find myself ashamed of these men who for some reason think they represent the one and only true church where they believe legelism is essential to salvation. They need to sit down and read Galations-probably been torn out of their bibles. As a member of the COC let me say that your worship of our lord and savior is between you and Him and if you feel blessed by your worship, you are, and He’s with you there.

    I recently got a chance to go to church with my grandmother- the first Methodist worship I’d ever been to. My uncle was preaching for his first time. He preached a sermon from Max Lucado’s (a COC minister)book, John 3:16. I’m so glad the bug of legelism hasn’t bit me because I was truly blessed by that day.

    Hateful men are just that- “HATE”. I know it appears that these men speak for the COC, in reality they are to the Church of Christ what Fred Phelps is to the Baptist Church.

    Grace to you.

    Dennis

  12. Thank you for your comments Dennis and Katherine. Reading your comments I discern a spirit of love and grace and I feel a comradrie with you both that is shared when people share a relationship with Christ.

    It is amazing that they are so badly misrepresenting the CofC, according to you both, and I am thankful that all those who claim to be CofC do not share their same sentiments.

    Bless you both,
    Katie

  13. Katie,
    I live on the other side of the country. Believe me when I say that the conservative church is still alive and growing. We believe strongly in the authority of the scriptures, and we know the plan of salvation written in the scriptures is the right plan. We don’t believe God has given us the authority to make up our own plans such as “sinners prayer” or having an “emotional experience” for salvation. The libs who believe anything goes are the minority and are dying off. Eventually they just become baptists. Why not they belive the same?

  14. Sadly, folks like Norm have the loudest voice in our denomination but surely not the largest. Just a few southern/midwestern churches believe this garbage. I will apologize for them. They do not speak for me or anyone I know affiliated with the CoC. They are Christians in name only and I am sorry that they give the rest of us a bad name. They are a dying breed, their views will not be around long.

  15. I have given up debating folks from the legalistic side of the Churches of Christ JC. Its gets old quite fast and is utterly frustrating. They will simply not listen and would rather defend their traditions then listen to anyone.

    No thank you.

  16. …let me add, I would defend your beliefs to the cows come home (though I strongly disagree) its the condemning and judging of other Christians that drive us nuts as if somehow God has granted you all the special gift of private infallible interpretation

  17. Modern day Pharisees of the highest order.

    What were they trying to prove by publicly disrespecting an entire group of worshipers? Rudely confronting others at a church service is probably not the best way to express their points of view on scripture. Think of the time that wasted on this expenditure. The sad part is that the core beliefs of the Baptists and the COC denominations are very similar. The world is rotten with sin, pain, and despair and all these men are concerned with is another congregation’s tradition of worship style! Are you kidding me? Think how things could be if they tried working with other Christians instead of looking for fights.
    49″Master,” said John, “we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us.” 50″Do not stop him,” Jesus said, “for whoever is not against you is for you.” Luke 9

  18. It isn’t a real church service…. and they are not “other christians” if they have not followed the plan of salvation found over and over in the New Testament…

  19. Also using Luke 9 is as weak as water for this situation. The one in Luke 9 is not teaching a different doctrine than Jesus taught.

  20. If there are 2 opposing doctrines they can’t both be right. Someone has to be wrong. Either the bible is true and we can “know the truth” or it is false and everyone is all right….

  21. Denominations are the best weapon satan has.
    1. Denomination = Division
    2. Denominations elevate mans teaching above God’s stated teachings.
    3. Denominations cause people to believe that you really can’t know the truth since even among religious people there are so many divisions.
    4. Denominations cause people to teach the church Jesus bought and paid for with his blood is not important. example “Go to the church of your choice”
    5. If we would all just teach the same thing taught in scripture, (how to be saved, how to worship God, and how to live), there would be no such thing as denominations…

  22. Let me guess JC – You are right and everyone else is wrong – you have it all PERFECTLY fiqured out don’t you? You guys need to come off your high horse of pride and stop pretending as if you have arrived at some level of PERFECTIOIN. When will you guys learn to love people and not want and desire to find the wrong that you “think” they have…its you guys who are causing splits and sects that Paul clearly preached against. BTW, I was once just like you…I use to love to take “my views” and prove other people of “denominations” wrong, boy how prideful and stupid I was !! And I know every single reply you may throw at me, so dont waste your time.

  23. Lets say, JC, that we all, in our private authoritative intepretations can figure out all doctine 100%. How do YOU know that yours is correct. With all the denominations that exist, all trying to be faithful to the Word of God, how can we trust your interpretations? Most except Sola Scriptura like you.

    Enlighten us.

  24. “It isn’t a real church service…. and they are not “other Christians” if they have not followed the plan of salvation found over and over in the New Testament…”

    – Correction. They do not follow the “plan of salvation” you have been taught is found over and over in the NT. Which of course happens to be the “plan of salvation” your particular religious movement adheres to.

    “Also using Luke 9 is as weak as water for this situation. The one in Luke 9 is not teaching a different doctrine than Jesus taught.”

    Says who? You? Do you possess flawless scripture interpretation?

  25. JC said:

    It isn’t a real church service…. and they are not “other christians” if they have not followed the plan of salvation found over and over in the New Testament…

    …and who are you, God? Who gave you the authority to sit in the throne room of condemnation and judge? Your initials are JC-do you think you are Jesus Christ?

    This is not what God has called us to do-how can you not see that??!!

  26. Definition of demonination-
    1. A large group of religious congregations united under a common faith and name and organized under a single administrative and legal hierarchy.

    By this denomination, Mr. “JC”, you are STILL part of a denomination. The people that I have encountered that are CofC’ers do EVERYthing that you listed as the “evils” of denomination.

    Norm and Johnny spark division and do everything in their power to sway public opinion. They MOST definitely have attempted to elevate themselves. I have been interested to learn that it’s not what the Bible says that concerns them but what hey can twist the Bible to mean. They claim that ONLY THEY can know the truth and their truth the end all be all (never mind the millions of believers across the world that read the same Bible they do).

    Your fourth point could NOT be further from the truth. In my conversation with Norm Fields I consistently referred to the necessity of Jesus Christ and he consistently brushed aside my words and all but ignored the name of Jesus. So you tell ME who is making Jesus’ blood to be “unimportant”. It certainly is NOT me.

    Lastly, if we all taught the same thing then I guess we would be perfect which is what I’m coming to understand all CofC’ers believe they are… at least the breed that you stem from. There are difference in human beings… plain and simple and so yes there may be slight variances here and there when us IMPERFECT humans attempt to interpret scripture. HOWEVER, I find it extraordinarily odd that you Mr. JC, Norm Fields, and Johnny Robertson believe that you are privy to some divine interpretation of Scripture that millions of others are not privy too. We all are reading the same passages, the difference is that the rest of us are not bending and twisting those passages to suit our will and needs, we are reading them as they were intended to read and adding NOTHING that promotes are our own agenda.

  27. “The libs who believe anything goes are the minority and are dying off. Eventually they just become baptists. Why not they belive the same?”

    JC, How do you know this?

    Most “libs” as you say don’t believe “anything goes”-that is just what you think they believe. You would most likely consider me a one of those “libs” in the “Church of Christ”, but I am not going anywhere, and neither are the majority of us. Because we see the good amidst the bad theology and divisiveness in our heritage, and want to stay and see it spurred on. We know we are not the ONLY ones going to heaven, and recognize the BODY of Christ. There is ONE God, but all of the believers make up His BODY, and to limit that is like spitting on the cross where our Lord bled and died for our sins.

    It is absurd to say “eventually they become Baptists” and wrong to even want that-that is EXACTLY what continues to divide and conquer-and is far from the essence of who Christ was or what he prayed for.

    Just a few of my thoughts…

  28. Amen, Katie-very well said 🙂

    It amazes me how they will run from the term “denomination” when in reality that is exactly what they have become. Jesus is no longer the focus-man made doctrine and agendas are. Then the focus is no longer to help people to Jesus-but to the “right” doctrine and THEIR truth, which is far from Jesus, but they simply cannot see that. It is very sad that they boldly proclaim this and will not listen to anyone else-EVEN the Word of God itself. It is even worse that the whole premise is thoroughly illogical, not to mention unBiblical-yet they think they can defend and fight till the end-accusing, slandering, and attacking while justifying it all because somehow “the Bible tells them to”. How in the world is that being Jesus? It’s not, and it will never get the Good News of His amazing Gospel to a lost world who needs Him so badly. I really wonder if they could take all of that time, money, and energy from attacking everyone else and their beliefs; and put it into actually sharing the simple and beautiful message of Jesus to people. Amazing what they could do!!

  29. To give you further insight into the obsurd thinking of the local coC folks let me share with you some of the points of contention with our church service that Norm Fields expressed on his April 17 cable broadcast. Each of these items listed below Norm express that they are not permitted in the New Testament church. These are the things that Norm had issues of contention with in our services:
    1. The choir wore robes.
    2. The choir was in an area “separated” from the people (ie choir loft).
    3. The congregation clapped at the conclusion of the special music presented by the choir
    4. The music was accompanied by musical instruments.
    5. The offering plate was passed for a love offering recieved in support of the speaker.
    6. The pastor (me of course!) came and sat with them during the message. (I did use deodorant that evening I promise)

    All of these above things, including number 6 as well I would assume, was opposed by Norm because there is no example of these things evident in the New Testament church presented in Scripture. In this line of thinking then may I ask: Are pews allowed? How about carpet, light bulbs, hymn books, flowers, curtains, stained glass, microphones, speakers etc. May men wear suits, ladies wear dresses. May we have a time to give announcements, recieve prayer requests? Examples of these are not spelled out in Scripture in the New Testament church.

    Please let me know quickly. This is Saturday evening. Church is tommorrow! Oh my what must I do!
    May your Sunday worship not be so stressful.

  30. I’ve been reading this blog for quite some time now and have refrained from “entering the fray” of reponding to any partcular issues of doctrine for a couple of reasons. One being that I am a minister within the churches of Christ and I have been holding out hope that many of the accusations leveled against Johnny, Norm, et. al, were, at the very least, overblown. Another reason was that I thought that there might be some ulterior motives by the blog writers who might have some preconceived bias against the church of Christ. The more I have read and watched on YouTube, I now must let go of the hope I had held on to. It saddens me to see the motives and tactics these men employ in the name of Christ.

    I believe that we are saved by the Grace of God through faith in his Son and that each individual must decide for themselves whether or not they will accept this offer of grace. I believe that the bible teaches this acceptance of grace and therefore salvation comes through baptism (not a work done to earn salvation but an act of faith on the part of a believer). I also believe that there are certain examples in the NT that show us how the church worshipped and that by incorporating these examples in the present day then we are on safe ground.

    One thing I haven’t seen discussed here (and I could have missed it) is this, if we as flawed humans can depend on God’s grace to cover error in our personal lives then why cant we trust God’s grace to cover doctrinal error?

    Most all would agree that in our personal lives, God is willing to extend his grace liberally to cover our transgressions as long as our hearts are set on Him and doing his will as best as we can (see 1 John). I believe that this is also the case when it comes to our worship as well. No one can claim to have the “market cornered” or know all things perfectly.

    I would love to hear your thoughts.

    One more thing, for as long as I have been involved in the churches of Christ (and I grew up in the c of C), I have never heard of the ambush tactics that you are experiencing in your area.

  31. Rick,

    Sorry about what happened at the service. Do not try to make sense of garbage like that. They have adopted a completely irrational approach to the scriptures. Also, do not expect to get any clear answers from them about the “extra-biblical” elements of their church service. (Instrument banning, song leaders, pitch pipes, buildings, paid preachers, weekly communion, welches grape juice instead of wine, Youth Ministers, Wed. night Bible class, etc.) Just not going to happen.

  32. Slooow Dooowwwnnnnn
    Are you Judging me? For Judging??
    How about the question?

    I am asking you to tell me
    What must I do to be saved???
    and please give the verses…

  33. If it is not OK to judge other peoples doctrines then you guys need to quit preaching against sin. Nor would it be OK for you to say that someone is not going to heaven if they don’t “ask Jesus in their heart”…

  34. JC you are a walking contradiction.
    You just said “when is it OK for us to judge what is right or wrong?” and then in the next post wanted to know why you can’t “judge other people’s doctrines”.

    If you want the truth. YES I AM JUDGING YOU. I am judging you in accordance with scripture. I am not coming at you saying I’m perfect (ie, I have examined the plank in my own eye) and I am saying to you that the CofC’ers such as yourself are misrepresenting scripture and doing so openly and loudly. So I have EVERY RIGHT TO “judge” you…. it’s call “calling false doctrine… false”… and that my friend is whatI have experienced from “listening” to you, Norm, and Johnny… a bunch of false, man-made doctrine.

  35. JC, you have asked the question “what must you do to get saved”.

    I shall lay it out for you.

    In John 3:16, scripture says (and I will quote from the KJV since Norm seems to think that’s THE only form of scripture that is acceptable… nevermind the original hebrew and greek).” For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life”.

    This tells us that our God sent His Son, Jesus to the world to bring us everlasting life, ie. salvation.

    In Romans we are told the following.
    3:23- For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God
    6:23- For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    So these two verses tell us that ALL ARE SINNERS and the debt for that sin is DEATH. Jesus Christ brought us LIFE.

    How do we receive that life??
    Romans 10:9-10; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

    So here we are told that salvation from the sin (refer to Romans 3:23 and 6:23) happens through belief in Jeuss Christ, that God raised Him from the dead. Right there it says “thou shalt be saved”.

    I lead you onto John 14:6 where Jesus Christ Himself says, Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    Therefore, upon looking at John 3:16 we see that Christ sent us His Son to bring us eternal life. Why? Because according to Romans 3:23 and 6:23 we are sinners who are to DIE apart from that eternal life. And in Romans 10:9-10 we are told that salvation is received upon believe in Jesus Christ. Belief in what?? Belief that God raised Him from the dead.

    And just to recap, John 14:6 says that Jesus is THE way to the father, NO ONE COMES through anything but Jesus.

    How’s that “JC”?

  36. Norm, Johnny and all the rest of these guys need prayer. They don’t realize they are missing out on the joy of the Lord. There Doctrine makes God look like a Dictator instead of a loving Father. I think they need help. And The power of God can come on them like never before if they will just open there hearts.

  37. Romans is a letter written to Christians. Why not back up in the letter to Chapter 6Ro 6:1 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
    2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
    3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were BAPTIZED INTO JESUS CHRIST were baptized into his death?
    4 THEREFORE we are BURIED WITH HIM BY BAPTISM INTO DEATH: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
    5 For IF WE HAVE BEEN PLANTED TOGETHER IN THE LIKENESS OF HIS DEATH, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
    6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
    7 FOR HE THAT IS DEAD IS FREED FROM SIN.
    8 Now IF WE BE DEAD WITH CHRIST, we believe that we shall also LIVE WITH HIM:
    9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

    “Shalt be saved” future tense
    (Confess UNTO or in the direction of Salvation)

    “Were Baptized INTO his death” Past tense
    “old man is crucified with him” Present Tense (Baptism INTO Christ)Gal 3:27 Romans 6:3

    confession and belief are unto salvation or they are in the direction of salvation.
    But leave off Baptism and no one gets INTO Christ…or Do you have another verse to prove such?

    To repeat what u said NO ONE comes to the father thru anything but Jesus. I say amen. Yes you do have to be INTO JESUS and the only way I find is in Baptism.

    Who is a canidate to be baptized one who has believed enough in Jesus to put it into action by repenting, confessing and then being baptized for the remission of sins. Acts 2:38

    When is your old man crucified with Christ?

  38. “IF” is a conditional word with profound meaning…

    What “IF” we have not been planted together in the likeness of his death???????????

  39. Dane, I totally agree-people with that mentality can be utterly frustrating, but I am praying that God can pierce their hearts and souls with His amazing love and power-because I know He is the only one that can.

  40. The only reason norm and Mark went to the Baptist church is to start trouble. You see these folks don’t understand the whole truth. What they try to do is cause trouble simply because they cannot find joy themself. John 10:10 says

    The thief doesn’t come except to steal, kill, and to destroy. But I(JESUS) came to give you life and life more abundantly.

    So what they try to do is steal joy from other Christians. That doesn’t sound like the ONE TRUE CHURCH to me. They have no right to judge others and start stuff with other Christians. God help these Guys.

    Dane

  41. Amen again, Dane.

    Well, I am a member of the “Church of Christ”-born and raised in it, but recognize the larger body of Christ and know that I am not a part of the “one true church”. Actually, I was never taught that and I am thankful-because I would hate to be burdened under that kind of mentality and be subject to a God who is a dictator. I recognize our history in the Stone-Campbell and Restoration movement, but would not call myself a Campbellite-which Campbell actually spoke against that. He did not want anyone to wear his name as their identity. They were trying to get away from that and declare themselves “Christians only, but not the only Christians” which has been turned around into “We are the only Christians” by those in the camp of these guys. I am a Christian, bought by the blood of Jesus and saved by Him. My loyalties lie not in the institution of the “Church of Christ”-though I love and embrace that family-while realizing there is a larger family of Christ. Our salvation is found in Jesus and Him alone.

  42. From JC: What “IF” we have not been planted together in the likeness of his death???????????

    JC, tell us all how being buried in water pictures being placed in a tomb? Lets say Paul does mean water here, would not this apply to those in other denominations who have been baptized in water. According to Col 2:12 God does the work in baptism. I know the argumenst here too JC. You will say ” but one must be baptized for the right purpose” – unto forgiveness of sins, in other words he must understand what baptism is all about before it makes God do His work. I find it odd that we so often leave off the end of Acts 2:38…and you will recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit. How must of that did you understand when you were baptized ?? Per your theology, if one doesnt understand it all, somehow that causes God not to do as He promised – Mark 16:16. I guess if you failed to understand what “the gift of the Hold Spirit is at the moment you were baptized, your baptism is not valid. Your own views hang you JC. I know just about every cofC person didnt have a clue about the ” the last part of Acts 2:38 ” when they were baptized. If your gonna stress the verse nust be “fully” understood before God forgives you, then use the entire verse, not just part of it. Again, JC, I know each arugument you may have – I have used them myself…

  43. Below is a great article from a church of Christ preacher – nothing like from our guys on TV. Johnny and crew never tell people this – read it and you will know why

    Rebaptism for “The Right Purpose”
    Why introduce this over-worked subject again? It is because we in the Church of Christ have let it block the path to unity. Our rejection of others because they were not baptized purposely “for the remission of sins” separates us from the greater portion of believers. In this, we have become rejecting judges denying the very validity of the discipleship of others.

    We in the Church of Christ probably have discussed baptism more than any other group because we have considered it of more importance than most other Christian groups. It seems that by now we should have laid the subject to rest. I think I have dealt with the subject sufficiently for my readers in general in my books. However, now being on the Web with new readers who are not familiar with the views I have expressed, I hope this essay may offer some helpful clarification.

    In proclaiming Jesus’ promise that “he who believes and is baptized will be saved,” we have also used the emphatic statement of Peter on Pentecost, “Repent, and be baptized every of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins” (Mk. 16:16; Acts 2:38). Although most all Christian groups practice baptism as an act of obedience to Christ, they generally teach that believing is the only necessary action of obedience in order to receive forgiveness. So they think they are saved before obedience in baptism. Since those persons are not baptized purposely “for the forgiveness of your sins,” many of my people contend that those persons should be rebaptized specifically for that purpose.

    By denying the validity of the baptism of such persons, many in the Church of Christ actually deny that such persons are saved, and they offer them no fellowship or admission into their congregations. So this goes beyond friendly discussion about accepting disciples and is made the basis of rejection. Rebaptism becomes a dividing issue.

    Let me clarify this point in the beginning. Allowing God to be God who may make gracious exceptions as he may choose, I am convinced that ordinarily baptism is an essential action on the part of the sinner in accepting the grace of God bestowed in Christ. The contention of this essay is that one is not required to understand each and every purpose or result of baptism in order for God to fulfill those purposes and effects.

    Is “for the remission of your sins” a part of the command or a part of the promise? If it is a part of the command, then one is required to understand that purpose and to be immersed specifically for that purpose. If it is a part of the promise, then it is fulfilled by God to the one obeying his command to be immersed whether that person understands fully or not.

    If, in order for baptism to be valid, one must understand its purpose, let us look at the stated purposes. In Peter’s declaration on Pentecost, he first called for convicting faith. Then he called for them to repent and be baptized in order for their sins to be forgiven. Can anyone deny that both faith and repentance, in addition to immersion, are necessary for the remission of sins? Faith, repentance, and baptism are (1) for the forgiveness of sins and (2) to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Shortly after Pentecost, Peter delivered a similar discourse at Solomon’s Porch. Even though baptism is not mentioned specifically, he called for faith and, “Repent therefore, and turn again, (3) that your sins may be blotted out, (4) that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and (5) that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, whom heaven must receive until the time for establishing all that God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from of old” (Acts 3:11-22. Numbering added). If a candidate for baptism must understand these five stated purposes and have them in mind for his baptism to be valid, woe is me! I am a goner, a dead duck! I did not fully comprehend them all at that time and I still do not 62 years later! What about you? Were you baptized purposely in order to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit? Why make an issue of one promise and not the other? In the one account of rebaptism in the Scriptures, converts of Apollos were asked by Paul, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” We are not told of any inquiry into the understood purpose of their prior baptisms (Acts 19:1-9).

    Commands are to be obeyed, but how do you obey a promise? When Jesus announced, “He who believes and is baptized shall be saved,” he set forth two things that a person can do and the result that God will accomplish. The promised result was not a part of the command. It cannot be obeyed. Neither were any of the five promises enumerated above parts of the command. These are not things a person can do. In Matthew’s account of the Great Commission, no mention is made of the purpose or promise connected with baptism (Matt. 28:18-20), yet we can be confident that God saved those who were obedient.

    Judean disciples in the Jerusalem church were convinced that circumcision, in addition to obedience in baptism, was necessary to be saved, yet no question is raised about the validity of their baptisms (Acts 15).

    Other purposes were fulfilled through baptism in response to faith and repentance also. I shall continue the numbering begun above. We are baptized (6) into Christ (Gal. 3:27; Rom. 6:3-4). By our baptism we are brought (7) into the one body, (8) the church (1 Cor. 12:13; Col. 1:18). It is through this obedience that we are (9) born again, (10) become a child of God, and (11) enter the kingdom of God (John 3:3-5; Gal. 3:26-27). There we find (12) newness of life (Rom. 6:3-4) and (13) are circumcised with the circumcision of Christ (Col. 2:11-14).

    These are things that God through his Spirit accomplished in and for us when we obeyed him in baptism, whether we understood it or not. If one must have had those purposes in mind prior to baptism, then few of us could have confidence that God’s promises were fulfilled in us. Most of us would need rebaptism! Isn’t it amazing how we become hung up on one point!

    There is no Biblical record that all the purposes listed above were explained to a person before baptism. The last eight of them were explained to disciples after their baptisms to assure them of what God had accomplished in and for them when he saved them.

    Perhaps it will put things in better perspective to look again at the records of conversions in Acts. On Pentecost Peter was addressing the very people who had called out for the crucifixion of Jesus. His discourse was designed to turn them from rejecters to believers in Jesus as the Christ. His powerful presentation of Christ caused them to recognize the horrible thing they had done so that they felt doomed. They called out in despair asking rhetorically what they could do when they thought their case was hopeless. They were probably surprised and greatly relieved when Peter told them simply to repent and be baptized in order to receive forgiveness and the gift of the Holy Spirit.

    In Samaria (Acts 8), to these people who had been rejected by the Jews but were eager to serve God, the need for repentance and forgiveness was not mentioned, but great numbers of them were baptized eagerly in acceptance of Christ. A similar pattern is seen as the righteous Ethiopian gladly expressed his acceptance of, and allegiance to, Jesus as his Savior. They were not escaping impending doom due to heinous sins so much as aligning themselves with the one who would save them.

    Saul’s circumstance was similar to that of the Jews on Pentecost. Being convicted by an appearance of the Lord on the road to Damascus of fighting against God by his frenzied persecution of disciples, Saul cried out, “What shall I do, Lord?” Later, this man who had been fasting and praying in contrition for three days and nights was told to be baptized to wash away his sins (Acts 9, 22). Forgiveness was the burning issue with him.

    Cornelius was a devout, God-fearing Gentile (Acts 10). After God convinced the Jews that he was receiving Gentiles by the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on Cornelius and his household, Peter commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. No mention is made of “for the remission of sins,” for that was not the emphatic issue with them so much as their being initiated into life in Christ. In his Great Commission, Jesus had authorized baptism in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. When they baptized in the name of Christ, they were baptizing as Jesus had authorized. It was a matter of obedience to Christ.

    In no case was a discourse on baptism delivered to those who were to be immersed. No evidence points to an explanation of all the designs of baptism, nor of reimmersion of the penitents after they learned all the designs. They simply obeyed the expressed will of God — like we should do, whether we understand all its purposes or not.

    Many in our congregations think of baptism as a sacrament, a ritual or ceremony through which grace is conferred to the soul. They think it changes the soul from death to life, affecting a new birth in us. They believe in baptismal regeneration – that in baptism divine action transforms and regenerates the soul in a new birth process.

    Baptism symbolizes, finalizes, and confirms the change that the convert has undergone rather than accomplishing the change. The conversion process is similar to the process of physical birth. There is an insemination, a conception, a period of gestation, and a parturition or birth. The birth finalizes what has been taking place in the womb rather than being the cause of the life developing process. The parturition is necessary, but it is not the cause of life. Life is not conferred, infused, or poured into the fetus at birth, yet the life-giving process is incomplete without it.

    In similar manner, a sinner hears the gospel, develops faith, decides to submit his life to God in Christ, begins a process of reformation, and is baptized. Although baptism is necessary in this procedure, it is not the cause of life. Baptism confirms what has already been developing in the person. The regeneration is a process finalized by baptism instead of being produced by it.

    Now, must a person who held a sacramental view of baptism be rebaptized when he learns of his misunderstanding? Such a person has obeyed what was commanded. He was not commanded to understand all the purposes and implications. If God does not demand such an understanding, why should we? And again, who could ever quality for baptism, for it is likely that none of us has understood all. He stands on unholy ground who rejects others who do not have his particular understanding.

    The respected pioneers of our Movement did not demand rebaptism of those who had been immersed in other groups. It was later in the nineteenth century that an issue began to be made of it. David Lipscomb, the influential editor of the Gospel Advocate, opposed such rebaptism. In 1884, Austin McGary and Elijah Hansborough started the Firm Foundation especially to promote the rebaptism issue. That publication became very effective, but now I am confident that both the issue and the journal are waning.

    “By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was to go” (Heb. 11:8). If he had waited until he saw everything clearly, he would not have left. How can we demand that others see all clearly before they begin obedience to the simplest of commands?

  44. You say, I know all your arguments for I was just like you. Well I say the exact same thing back. I spent decades in the baptist church even as a minister I too know the disdain for actually finding answers on your side.

    The question remains…
    “IF” is a conditional word with profound meaning…

    What “IF” we have not been planted together in the likeness of his death???????????

    Lets not Dodge the question now…

  45. What does one have to understand before they can be Baptized?

    1. Know Who Jesus is (God’s Son)
    2. Know What He did for us (lived sinoless and died for us)
    3. Know, when we are baptized, that it is for the forgiveness of our sins.

  46. churchesofchirst,
    That is a fantastic discourse concerning baptism, the best that I have read I do beleive thus far. Email that to the boys would you please

    Thanks for you insight!

    and by the way I am proud of Katie’s defense of her beliefs (and her defense of her proud father).

  47. How can we demand that others see all clearly before they begin obedience to the simplest of commands?

    I agree totally…
    Baptism is the simplest of commands.

    Why do Baptists make it so hard?
    Was it asking to much when the bible said to be baptized for the remission of sins?
    I guess its just the 20th century Generation..
    “Sinners Prayer” for salvation was unheard of even among denominations till the early 1900’s…

    Why not just go back to the pattern of Scripture.
    Ac 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

  48. JC, I beg to differ. Baptist didn’t make baptism difficult. As a matter of fact Baptists were first called Baptist because they insisted on baptism following repentance. To a Baptist, baptism is as simple as it gets…you acknowledge your sins, ask for God’s forgiveness, confess Christ as Lord and receive baptism by immersion. No difficulties there.
    If my salvation is dependent upon the act of baptism (which by the way is an action performed by man)and not totally upon action provided by God, then why do I need God.

  49. Oh but Rick my friend, that is simply not good enough for the legalists when you say:

    “To a Baptist, baptism is as simple as it gets…you acknowledge your sins, ask for God’s forgiveness, confess Christ as Lord and receive baptism by immersion. No difficulties there.”

    Makes sense to all of us, but to them you have wrong name on your church sign and you must understand why you are being baptized…..I know…..crazy.

  50. JC, since you wrote this, can you please enlighten us as to where in the Bible does it state one must know this in order for it to be a valid baptism?

    What does one have to understand before they can be Baptized?

    1. Know Who Jesus is (God’s Son)
    2. Know What He did for us (lived sinless and died for us)
    3. Know, when we are baptized, that it is for the forgiveness of our sins.

  51. …by the way, yes, I am apart of the Churches of Christ but nothing like those legalists. I am however studying church history and Roman Catholicism.

  52. If my salvation is dependent upon the act of baptism (which by the way is an action performed by man)and not totally upon action provided by God, then why do I need God.

    Exactly, Rick. It almost takes God out of the picture and places the salvation on our shoulders, which is far from Biblical. It seems that the idea of the GIFT of salvation and grace become muddled when we place human restrictions on who is in and who is out when in reality God did not intend it to be difficult for us to come to Him. He is the one who invited us to COME to Him and find rest, that His yoke is easy and His burden is light. His commands have never been burdensome, it is only humans that have made them so and have put stumbling blocks for men to come to God.

  53. To (JP MANZI) I see you say you are studying Roman Catholicism. I must warn you as a believer that is even more dangerous. I know they don’t condemn others. And they are stronger in numbers than any other Christian. But they are also modern day pagans. Below I listed some examples as well as scripture references:

    1) You know that Big hat the pope wears, Thats the same hat pagan leaders wore.

    2) In Jerimiah Chapter 7, This church was prophesized. Read it

    3) One of the most important commandments (NO GRAVEN IMAGES) look in the Catholic church today. There are more statues and idols than anything.

    4) Revelation talks about the great Harlot, riding the beast with Seven heads. that represents the vatican. and the city of rome. (The city of 7 hills)

    5) The Bible also says, “Call no man Father” (I rest my case)

    6) The Son of Perdition will take on Gods title. What do Catholics call the POPE. (Holy Father)

    7)Also Catholics pray to Mary, Where does God tell us to do that?

    I incourage you to seek the truth In the Word. Not by a tradition or religion created by Man. do what 2 Tim 2:15 says, “study to show thyself approved…” and you will never go wrong.

  54. I have been away since my last comment on Friday afternoon…I wasn’t surprised that myself and Kathrine were hatefully called “Libs” by a fellow COC’str. I grew up and still worship in a COC and it’s not psuedo Baptist. But, neither do I waist my time condemning them how they worship God. That’s between God and the worshipper. JC- If they follow Christ they’re Christians. The only one that can take that place from them is Christ himself- You my friend do not have that authority. It was not the pharisees who showed compassion to the woman caught in adultry in John 8. You are acting just like a pharisee.

    We in the COC use Romans 16:16 to justify our name, doesn’t it say churches of Christ -plural(denominations) dude? Church of God is also bibical, but you most likely think they damned too?

    You’ld probably be surprised how similar my worship is to yours, except I sing more than 3 dry songs, and my “preacher” didn’t baptize my son- I did.

    I’ve heard all my life that we are modeled for the first century church. That’s fine, but there are holes… First, they had problems I don’t want. Second, We seem only interested in a handfull of churches that Paul wrote to. Third, as you start to realize from Revelation their are more first century churches that we know nothing about. They didn’t use a bible (Matthew-Revelation) for doctrine, but in stead the same scpritures the Jews had used. Under your logic they’re damned too. Lay off of condemning people who have accepted Christ as their lord and savior, just because they don’t worship in a building that has a COC sign in front of it. If there’s any condemning to do God is perfectly capable of handling His own business. Christ makes it clear how the judge will be judged.

  55. Dane,

    I appreciate your warning concerning the Roman Catholic Church. I am well versed in their theology as I spent years and years as a Catholic.

  56. JC – you havent made any good arguments yet. All you said was “if”. Explain how being buried in water pictures Christ in a tomb…seeing it says planted in his likeness. Again, if this is water, other denominations go thru baptism too……so per your view, they are “planted” with Him.

  57. “”so per your view, they are “planted” with Him.””

    Good try Randy

    If they aren’t doing it to be planted with him as in planting the old man and rising up washed of their sins, then they aren’t being planted with him…
    They are just doing it for show to others…

  58. “So what they try to do is steal joy from other Christians. That doesn’t sound like the ONE TRUE CHURCH to me. They have no right to judge others and start stuff with other Christians. God help these Guys.”
    (Dane)

    To (JP MANZI) I see you say you are studying Roman Catholicism. I must warn you as a believer that is even more dangerous. I know they don’t condemn others. And they are stronger in numbers than any other Christian. But they are also modern day pagans. (Dane)

    Wow
    Dane I guess you kinda contradicted yourself here. Which is it “No right to judge others” or “They are a Pagan Religion”…

  59. “If my salvation is dependent upon the act of baptism (which by the way is an action performed by man)and not totally upon action provided by God, then why do I need God.” (Katherine)

    GREAT QUESTION!!!

    The problems with your statement…
    Repentance, (action performed by man)
    Belief, (action performed by man)
    Confession, (action performed by man)

    Salvation (action performed by God)

    We are never deserving of salvation, but God has given
    us the opportunity to accept it(action)…

    Are you also willing to leave out RBC since they to are actions performed by man???

  60. You know in regards to our local coC folks, I can live with the disagreement over doctrinal beliefs and practices, I can tolerate the absurd visits and I can support the right of freedom of expression on televsion. But the real problem and concern that I have is the damaging effect that these guys are having on the unsaved populace of our area. (I know that they think that other Christians outside their tent are unsaved and that the majority of their focus is on tearing down established “unsaved” churches.. but forget that group for a moment).

    What do you think the average unchurched, unsaved individual, who happens to catch one of the coC broadcast or who hears the gossip in the community about “did you hear what that Robertson gang said about preacher so and so and his church”, concludes about religion in general and church in particular.

    There is no telling how many unchurched, unsaved individuals have rejected God and the things of God because of the vicious attacks on ministers, churches and religious denomination that they have witnessed taking place every week by Robertson, Fields and Oldfield. Why can’t these guys understand that what they need to be doing to win over a lost and dying world is to use their precious paid air time to present the saving gospel of Jesus Christ. If they must teach their doctrinal beleifs on air do they not understand that it would have a greater impact if they simply stuck to teaching the things of God without verbal assaults on people and places?

    This desire, no passion to tear down other churches as a way to build up a particular church is just beyond my understanding.

  61. Rick, great last post. They have ZERO desire to reach the lost. All they care about it taking christians from other denominations. Thats it. They are a cancer to the Christian faith. Strong words, but look at thier actions…….or lack there of.

  62. Sure it will have that affect on some. Just as I’m sure it did when Jesus, John the Baptist, Peter, and Paul preached. There is also another side to it. I’ve had many people (churched and unchurched) tell me they are just glad to see someone take a stand for their beliefs. People in the real world see denominations. That all teach extremely different things, but believe they are all “OK” to do it their own way. They think Christians are all Hippocrites because of denominationalism. I’ve seen many come to know the Lord because the controversy got their attention and made them want to know the truth of the matter…

    How about an answer to post 69???

  63. look at thier actions…….or lack there of.(JP)

    Sure we could all do more, but are you “calling the kettle black”?

    (18 cities knocked over 10,000 doors
    Each door recieved information on how to be saved and opportunity for study.
    Many souls reached)
    Definetly not a brag, but lets just get clarification before we make accusations…

  64. I’m curious just how successful JC (or three this blog is about) has been in convincing christians from other faiths to pull up stakes and join his form of christianity. If he’s convinced anyone to change I wonder how long it is before they become unhappy and loose total interest. I grew up in his brand of COC and was told I was happy, but wasn’t. I went through with all five steps he claims are neccessary, but then I was told I could still be damned if i didn’t go to beg forgiveness of every transgression on my death bed. ( A little exaggeration but pretty close)

    I am happy now to be a member of the COC that is graceful and grace focused ( he calls me a “lib”). JP you’re right… If a druggie walked into his church, he would not be welcomed even though that’s the person that needs salvation. The Great Commission says to seek and save the lost, I see nothing about seeking and resaving the saved. Meanwhile the lost are becoming more lost, time is running out and their are a few hyper-Cons (love that term) that want nothing but a fight with fellow christians. Its a shame how much good we could accomplish if we learned to work together at seeking and saving the real lost of this world, isn’t it?

  65. I completely agree daddy (aka rick for those that don’t know he’s my dad).

    While they are ambushing churches, pointing fingers, and calling names a LOST WORLD is dying and on their way to hell.

    Which really leads me to believe that these gentlemen have no real understanding of what grace, love, and mercy are. And if we really want to get blunt… a person’s relationship with God is reflected to the world by the fruits they produce. The three in our community definitely have no positive fruits that I can see… they are hostile, pharasetical, and completely spiritually blind to any view but their own. It sets a poor example to the unchurched people of what Christianity is SUPPOSED to be about. They have made Christianity about themselves and not Christ and that is my biggest “beef” with them.

    And I can’t remember who posted this up above but I really liked the thought. It sounds like this branch of the CofC is placing more emphasis on the water in baptism and their own mindset of why they are being baptized than they are on the blood of Christ… which does beg the point, who is really saving them? If it’s their own mindset and understanding then how is it a free gift of grace? And if that is truly what they are doing… relying on their own human minds to bring them salvation then are THEY truly saved? hmmm… interesting thought.

  66. Rick,

    While I agree with you whole-heartedly, it is helpful to understand that from their perspective, we are all lost. You, as a part of the Baptist denomination, are just as lost as if you had never heard the Gospel at all. Maybe even moreso, since you are a “false teacher” (as they would say) – so you’ll have even that much more to answer for when “the roll is called up yonder”.

    And I think, from your comments here, that you get completely that they believe that you are the one leading people astray, and I’d bet a big amount of change that Norm Fields believes that his little foray into your church last week was just on the same level as what you think about Lottie Moon going to China or Jim Elliot going to Ecuador.

    In fact, I’ve seen Norm refer to his work in Danville as “missions” (at least he posted an appeal to his brethren in a “missions” bulletin board – you can see it here: http://forum.preachersfiles.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=740). So that should tell you what he thinks of the spiritual condition of the Danville community.

    I was just told over on another discussion board the following by one of Johnny, Norm and James’s hypercon brothers:

    “I have no problem saying that according to the Scriptures you are not a Christian and you are in the wrong church.”

    And when I provided that person with over a dozen Scripture passages that said specifically that we are saved when we believe in Jesus (and varieties on that passage), I was told:

    “Those are great Scriptures! I believe and preach them.
    Did you notice not one of those Scriptures says “faith alone/only” OR “grace alone/only”?
    Did you notice not one of those Scriptures mentions the Presbyterian church or infant baptism?
    Presbyterian Nathan (this guy’s little pet name for me) is trying to lay claim to something that’s not his.
    Keep trying!!”

    So, as far as this guy is concerned, I’m as lost as a Bedouin in the Sahara who never heard the Gospel.

    Not much chance that they are going to want to team up with us for anything – especially not in reaching the lost.

    Presbyterian Nathan

  67. Nathan, Rick, and Katie;

    Me and my COC brothers will team up with you because we want Christ glorified!

  68. Thanks Presbyterian Nathan 🙂
    You are so right. And the truly eteranally sad part is that by not teaming up with fellow Christians they are literally sending hundreds to hell because these lost folks are turned off by their tactical judgemental attitude towards everyone.

    just call me Baptist Rick..hehe

  69. Thanks Dennis! I appreciate the faith and outreach of the true Church of Christ brothers and sisters. I’ll team up with you anytime!

  70. I appreciate it, Dennis. That is the best thing that has come out of this blog for me – an understanding that there are lots and lots of folks in churches of Christ whose doctrine and methods are nothing like the doctrine and methods of the men who host the TV shows in our area.

    Nathan

  71. One thing I strongly advise is that people study what these guys believe prior to calling them. Most do not have a clue what they believe and why – trust me these men know most denominational doctrines better than the people who attend them. They study their doctrines and know each weakness and know how to answer each question before you even ask. They have heard every question around – Rick, Katie , I once worked close with these men, even lined up the debate with Jason and Jeff black. I ask Johnny and James both how they knew the bible so well and they told me they picked topics , doctrines and things and treated them like a filing system and in that filing system they have every question you have and already have an answer. They are never caught off guard. I was able to stop the largest Baptist church pastor around by using these methods and the reason being is this pastor didn’t know the cofC doctrine and he finally stopped emailing me. I done this with another preacher in NC too….he too could not answer me, so please be well prepared. I left these men thank God !!! I also told the men I once condemned I was sorry and ask that they forgive my actions. Just as you stated, these men are more interested in debate than saving the lost from hell. If you want to understand how to defend yourself against their attacks, visit sites like Al Maxey, Carl Ketcherside, Cecil Hook….you can Google them to find their url. These men are church of Christ preachers and will provide you with information Johnny and crew will not. You can even go to Freedoms rings site, which is Cecil Hook and he will send you some books for free that will help with everything Johnny can throw your way. Please Google Al Maxey too….and go to his site and he has the positions of the legalist like Johnny and crew and will provide answered to their questions. He actually emailed Johnny and Norm on behalf once, but that didn’t amount to much but them running in circles

  72. Thanks Randy,
    I will google those three preachers and gain further information and also continue to gather information from the link Nathan gave out further up on this post.
    I agree that the best way to debate is to learn more about their doctrine, in particulare Norm and Johnny since it appears that their doctrine doesn’t match up with the rest of the CofCers out there.

  73. There are several interesting things worth pointing out:

    1. Everyone is upset about the disrespect and disdain Norm supposedly showed by not participating in worship he doesn’t agree with but no one seems too bothered about the fact he was threatened with physical violence for asking questions.

    2. Does anyone else see the irony in how everyone is talking about how grace is enough to cover our doctrinal differences but no one is bothered by Dane’s comments about Catholics? They believe in Jesus as well. Isn’t grace enough to cover all of their errors as well? Why hasn’t anyone called him out?

    3. How divisive would it be for someone who was “unchurched” to find this website and see people bickering over doctrine? Wouldn’t it turn people away? Doesn’t this site do the same thing that Norm, Johnny & James do, or is it different in some way? I guess it is different since you believe THEY are wrong.

    4. Just a general question – are there no false teachers or teachings worth addressing? As Christians, do we let everything go and let grace sort it out? If a person claims to be a Christian must we accept them and their teachings? I’m just curious as to where many of the people posting about this stand.

    Thanks,
    Christian Corey

  74. Randy, you brought back some memories. I wrote several weeks ago on this blog about being “trained” CoC doctrine when I was a teenager in a Hyper-con COC ( by the way JC, that church died 10 years ago and an evangelical church meets there now). I did spend more time learning about Baptist’s, Methodist’s, Presby’s, even Disciple of Christ’s doctrine than my own traditions. I also remember “Grace” and “Holy Spirit” as being referred to as fanatical words.

  75. Corey..
    I’ll answer your questions as best I can.

    1. I agree that Norm should have never been threatened. In fact my dad pointed out how the church members angry reaction to Norm was “unfortunate”. Appropriate? Absolutely not, no one has condoned that kind of anger or “threat”.

    2. When I think of the term “Christian”- I do include Catholics in that broad term. Correct, they believe in Jesus Christ as God’s Son, believe in His death and ressurection and so they are essentially Christians with a little more ritual and tradition than protestants (well most protestants). I have some doctrinal differences and I personally wouldn’t feel entirely comfortable in the catholic church simply because of some of those differences but in no way would claim them to be non-Christian because of that. They are entitled to their style of worship just as I am too mine. If they are contradicting scripture (or if any of us for that matter contradict scripture in our worship) that is when it becomes a “problem”.

    3. I actually full-heartedly agree with you on this point. It won’t stop me from openly communicating though because I feel there’s a big difference between me civally corresponding and discussing and what these gentlemen like to do and that is ambush a group and then twist,mingle, and misquote them on their programs in a means of bashing particular persons and/or churches. If I have in anyway “bashed” Norm, I apologize and you are correct, that would be inappropriate. However discussing where the difference are and our grievances with their approach is not “wrong”.

    4. You are right, just because a person claims to be a Christian doesn’t make them one. But I would also say that just because a person claims that their doctrine of Christianity is the ONLY doctrine, doesn’t it make so.

  76. Corey,

    I agree with you on the fact that Christ must be appalled by all of the infighting among what I consider the be fellow christians. In the end who’s the judge? How will we be judged? I for one do believe I’ll be judged favorablly not by standing up for mine or any other denomination but because I have claimed the gift of God’s grace through the blood of Christ. I also believe by the zeal shown on this blog that all of these folks will claim the same reward as me. Now to the issue at hand, who’s looking after the real lost of this world?

  77. Dennis… good question.
    As important as I do believe it is to defend our beliefs (and in my case, to defend my family also)… the greatest question is who is going to reach the lost of the world with the message of Christ’s grace, of love and mercy.

    I lead a local youth group as their youth “director” and I challenge my young people weekly with that call (or commission if you will). May we all live a life that is glorifying the Lord and furthering the message of salvation through the blood of Jesus Christ.

  78. Corey,

    If Johnny, Norm and James agree to discontinue their programs, I’d be happy to discontinue this blog. It takes up too much of my time as it is. But, as I’ve said here multiple times, I started this blog because I felt like the Christian community in the Star 39 viewing area was being bullied by these men, and had no other place to talk about it (and their teachings) except their programs.

    If this blog is helping someone from within a hypercon CofC think outside the box and consider that the “churches of Christ” are really not so different than other Christian fellowships, then I would think the blog has served a noble purpose.

    I try to maintain a level of civility here so that it won’t be a place of “bickering over doctrine”. Admittedly, I personally have not always been civil, and I have apologized for that, but I am (after all) human, and subject to my emotions. I have worked hard to keep those “bickerers” off the blog, and allow those (such as yourself and others who identify with Johnny and company) who are interested in good discourse to say what is on their minds and hearts.

    Nathan

  79. Katie,

    Thanks for your responses. Let me go a little further:

    Why would the Catholic traditions and teachings make you uncomfortable? If everything is okay with God it should be okay with us shouldn’t it?

    What would you consider contradicting scripture? Praying to someone other than God (such as Mary – in direct contradiction of Jesus’ teachings)? Calling a man “Holy Father” (in direct contradiction of Jesus’ teaching)? What is the standard by which these things are judged contradictions? Our feelings or God’s word?

    Again, you said that not everyone who claims to be a Christian is and you said that no person can claim to have the only doctrine to follow. So what do we follow? How can we know what is true and what is false unless we agree upon a standard?

    Lastly, if openly and honestly discussing these matters here is not bashing (and I don’t believe it is), then how is Norm walking up to a man and asking him questions about why he believes what he believes bashing or “ambushing”? Aren’t we told to always have an answer for the faith that is within us?

    Corey

  80. I will have to really think on the questions regarding the Catholic beliefs so I won’t answer those right now.

    But first I will say that you are right about the “ambushing”. If Norm Fields did as he claims and just went to churches and observed and then asked simple questions that would be one thing and would not warrant anyone to feel angry, certainly not angry enough to threaten. But instead what Mr. Fields did and one of his cohorts have done in the past is they persist beyond the level of just asking questions. It is as if their mission is not to ask and answer questions but to publicly embarass and/or ridicule all those who are present. That is when it becomes ambushing on his part.

    But onto another point that we are discussing. I actually did not say that no person could claim to have “the” doctrine I said that just because someone claims their doctrine is THE doctrine doesn’t it make so. And I’ll do my best to explain myself by what I meant. What I mean, in direct reference to the Fields/Robertson crew is that they pull out scripture that I assume they feel builds their argument for why they are the “only” Christians. However, the fact that their scriptures are taken out of context, pulled together in bits and pieces does not provide sound doctrine in my opinion. That would be my opinion on how one’s doctrine may not be “the” truth, especially if the doctrine itself doesn’t appear to match up with the rest of scripture. Scripture is not wrong… man-made doctrine is the problem.

    I don’t know if that made sense or answered any questions but I’ll return to the thoughts on Catholicism later.

  81. Katie, I do think we are kindred spirits and would be really good friends 🙂 Everything you have said and I also have been involved and have a heart for youth ministry.

    I also will join with Dennis, and all of you-and since he said his CoC brothers are joining-I will say that your brothers AND sisters are with you!! 😉

    That is my main beef with those in any church who believe they are the ONLY ones who are going to make it-and study more on other people’s doctrines to prove them wrong than they actually study the Bible and the grace and love of God they have chosen to look over and ignore-which is the MAIN premise and Good News of the Bible and embodies who Jesus is. I often wonder if they are actually reading the same Bible as I am, because nowhere in there do I find a command to debate everyone to prove them wrong and bring them over to their side-over showing them the simple way God has provided to enter into a relationship with Him. The only command I see is to bring people to Jesus, and there are plenty of people in this world who do not know of Him at all. The kind of “Christianity” they believe they are taking part in by attacking everyone else is not the kind of Christianity the world wants to be part of or needs. We live in a very post-Christian society, and we have to go to where the people are-just like Jesus did, not judge them-but love them the way He has called us to. The way to Jesus is through Him and Him ONLY, not through any kind of man-made institution we label “church”. The church is made up of His body of believers-HE is the one who saves, we should just be spreading the message of His love and let God take care of the rest.

  82. Corey,

    I think that the main problem is that these men do not go into other churches or even use the format of their program to learn anything. They already believe they are right, they believe everyone else is wrong-and their main goal seems to be to prove that while closing their ears and minds to what anyone else has to say-EVEN when it is the TRUTH. That is what I have encountered. It is different if you are going somewhere or asking someone a question to really understand why they believe what they believe-but when you go in with the attitude that you know they are wrong, and have studied enough to pull out every stop to PROVE them wrong-then that is unacceptable and should not happen. That has never been what God has called us to-He called us to take His message to the world-to seek the lost and share the love, grace, mercy, and joy found in Him. They hardly even mention Jesus-and why? Because He is simply not the focus for them-their own man-made doctrines have taken over the message of Jesus and have watered down the power of the cross and the blood of Jesus that FREELY gives us the gift of salvation. When you have to work for something-it no longer becomes a GIFT.

    Dennis, I Amen this again:

    Its a shame how much good we could accomplish if we learned to work together at seeking and saving the real lost of this world, isn’t it?

    It would be absolutely AMAZING what we could accomplish if we really would answer Jesus’ plea and prayer for unity, and put down our swords. That would be fulfilling the great commission!! 🙂

  83. Katie,

    I am curious how Norm could have gone about what he did without ambushing. Should he have sent a letter ahead of time stating that he would be coming to ask questions? The last time he went to a Baptist church he accepted an offer to meet privately in the “pastor’s” study. An offer that was quickly rescinded. Was Norm overly aggressive? Did he berate the man publicly? I don’t know because I wasn’t there, but if he didn’t I can’t see what he did as “ambushing” anyone.

    I am also curious as to what passages you feel have been taken out of context, and I mean that sincerely. As I hold to the same beliefs as Mr. Fields I would like to know what you find to be incorrect, scripturally, so that I can examine it for myself.

    If you find man-made doctrines to be a problem, how do you feel about the man-made doctrines of your church? Are certain man-made doctrines acceptable and others incorrect? It is those doctrines of men that compelled me to leave the Baptist church and become a member of Christ’s church. Choirs, solos, instruments of music, women in leadership roles, a single “pastor” in place of the scriptural pastors…the list goes on of man-made additions to the church that caused me to wonder where the authority for such came.

    I look forward to your comments on Catholicism and I appreciate your honest answers and kind demeanor.

    Corey

  84. Katie, I meant to say in that first comment that everything you have said resonates with me and could have been easily written from my heart. Amazing how that works among those who find their hope in Jesus! 🙂

  85. Corey,

    I know you’re talking to Katie, but I’d like to throw in my two cents. The difference is that Norm is the host of one of three TV programs that are not known for keeping conversations with other preachers confidential. They aren’t known for having “friendly chats” with preachers in other churches. They are known for sneaking in cameras and microphones and secretly recording their encounters with preachers in churches other than their own. And THEN taking those videos and broadcasting them for the Star 39 viewing audience to see and laugh about.

    This is why people will retract offers to meet with them when they realize who they are. Who wants to appear on TV from the angle of a hidden camera, or have their secretly recorded words broadcast over the community?

    Nathan

  86. Corey, are you in line with the belief that the “Church of Christ” is the one and only church? I am just curious.

    Also, many of the things you mentioned: Choirs, solos, instruments of music, women in leadership role…are in some Churches of Christ (which I do not believe any of those are unscriptural)-would you fellowship with those who do have that in the same tradition of the Church of Christ? Why do you think those are wrong-simply because they are not authorized or for another reason?

  87. I wish I had more time to really dive into some of your questions and I hope you don’t take my inability right not to answer has not wanting to answer. I just am quite busy this afternoon with two screaming toddlers who are bound and determined to bring down the house. But that’s beside the point.

    I want to touch quickly though on one question you asked me directly. “how do you feel about the man-made doctrines of your church?” I would appreciate just a little explanation as to what man-made doctrine you are referring to.

    But I will say now that I agree there are many “traditions” within any given group of worshippers that are man-made. However my core beliefs are not man-made but are Scripture founded and for that I make no apologies or excuses.

    I attend a Baptist church. I’m the daughter of a Baptist minister but that does not mean that I uphold the “baptist church” as the end all be all means of achieving fellowship with Christ. I am a Christian… period. I read scripture. I live my life according to the Word and not according to man (be it a man on TV or a man in a pulpit).

    And for the other question directed to myself regarding what scripture Norm (he in particular since I have recently had the debate with him) took out of context. Here’s a good example. He went off on a tangent with me about musical instruments in worship. Which by the way my feelings about that are, fine if you have a conviction about instruments in worship then don’t use them. I have no beef with that. He told me point blank that because the New Testament does not mention musical instruments in worship that the New Testament Church (ie all of us) cannot use them. I questioned him how he could use the TV then because the New Testament church makes no mention of electronic devices and he said to me that in Matthew, Jesus tell us to “go and make disciples” and since he doesn’t say how to go then we can go however we need to spread the truth. My question??? Since when is it okay for one person to take liberties with scripture but no one else? Why is that Norm can assume away with passages of Scripture in that manner?

  88. oh yes and Nathan is right on with his response to Norm’s attitude in visiting the churches in our area.

    I am all for open communication and good-hearted debates. That is not what Norm and his cohorts are attempting to do in our area.

  89. Nathan,

    To a degree I can understand what you are saying. At the same time I would hope that at the worship services I attend that there wouldn’t be anything I wouldn’t want the rest of the world to see. If I didn’t speak anything untrue then I would have no problem with anyone hearing my words. I would hope that Norm would be upfront about recording people, but I would also hope they would have nothing to hide in their worship to God.

    Katherine – I believe that Jesus said He would build his church (singular). I don’t care what it says on the building or the sign out front – only what is taught within. The church (singular) is composed of the believers who love Christ AND follow his commandments. Only those that do so have a promise of salvation.

    You clearly accept many things which are unscriptural, so I doubt we will ever agree until we have a standard – the word of God, without our own feelings added to it. Would I fellowship with someone who added such unscriptural things – absolutely not. There are things which are not specifically addressed in the Bible which are acceptable as long as they don’t change or conflict with the stated commands. Pews, hymnals, serving plates for the Lord’s Supper are good examples. Things like women in leadership roles are a direct violation of a direct command. That is why that, and the other items I mentioned are wrong.

    Corey

  90. Katie,

    I gave a list of man-made doctrines found within the Baptist church.

    As far as the issue of instruments vs. television ministry, here is the difference:

    God tells us to sing. I sing a song of praise from a book of hymns. I am still just singing. I sing and play a piano. Now I am no longer just singing. I am singing and playing.

    God tells us to go into all of the world and preach the gospel. I go to another state by car and preach the gospel. I am still just preaching. I go on TV and preach the gospel. I am still just preaching. I go on TV and preach the gospel of Jesus AND throw in some doctrine that I made up and that sounds good to me. Now I am preaching the gospel AND adding my own opinion.

    It is only the additions that change God’s commands that I have a problem with, not those that expedite the process.

    Corey

  91. Corey,

    If any of the three hosts in the area would announce beforehand that he had recording devices, it would be Norm. However, I have seen multiple episodes with Johnny and James where it was obvious that no mention had been made of recording devices. In fact, they seemed to take pride in the fact that they had managed to pull a “Dateline NBC” type of a stunt.

    And it’s not a matter of having things going on that you wouldn’t want the world to see. It’s more a matter of having the things that go on twisted out of context, or used in an attempt to discourage the people who worship in that place. Not to mention that it is pretty disrespectful to the God who is being worshipped in that place.

    Which brings me to a doctrinal issue – where is the BCV that authorizes the use of hidden cameras and microphones in attempting to entrap others? Or, would supporters of Johnny and company just schluff off that issue by saying that they are only an “expedient” or an “aid”?

    Nathan

  92. Corey is the list you are referring to the robes, etc?

    If that’s what your beef is with the Baptists, then I’m sorry but I think it’s petty and I mean that with all due respect.

    There are better things we could all be spending our time doing then debating over things that are in my humble opinion not of eternal importance.

  93. Nathan,

    If Johnny & James are being underhanded or mis-using things then it is dishonest and wrong. Again, I don’t live in your area, only see what is posted online, and can’t comment on it. I can only discuss this issue as the facts are presented by those there.

    I can’t give you BCV on hidden cameras & microphones. I can give you verses saying to refute and rebuke false teachers, but I’m sure you probably know them. I also can’t give you a BCV because those things don’t pertain to worship. I also can’t give you a BCV telling you it is acceptable to watch tv, use the internet or go to the bathroom, but I’m going to assume they’re all alright.

    Again, if it is done in an under-handed, deceptive way then I believe it is wrong. That is the best I can give you.

    Corey

  94. And to take it one thought further.
    I bring up my opinion yet again and an opinion that I stated to Norm that to take such legalistic stands to go as far as saying a person cannot wear a robe is very pharasetical.
    The Pharasees were well intentioned. They wanted simply to obey the laws of God. The problem? They took the laws that God had given them and they added on things that they felt God would have added or things that they felt were implied or things that they felt were more “Godly” and “holy”. In the end Jesus rebuked them for their traditions and legalism.

    And that’s honestly the picture that I get of that kind of pettiness. It’s taking God-breathed scripture and adding man-made agendas and I’m sorry but I don’t agree with it. I think I read a quote on another one of the blogs on this page that said the CofC says that they are “silent where the Bible is silent” but really they are “condemning where the Bible is silent”. And what right does any person have to condemn something that God Himself has not condemned? That making it not about Christ and not about following God’s commands but it’s about man and how much “better” one man can be over the next. How much better he can follow the “letter of the law”. That’s legalism and I don’t buy into that.

  95. Katie,

    No, I’m not talking about robes, but this list I posted earlier:

    Choirs, solos, instruments of music, women in leadership roles, a single “pastor” in place of the scriptural pastors

  96. lol…I will repost this with my usual name..

    My goodness this is a fast moving blog today. I left for a moment, came back to address some issues with a post and discovered that you all had already addressed what I was going to. My you folks make my life so easy that way!! Continue on my friends..

    Baptist Rick

  97. Corey,

    Thank you for your response-I appreciate it, and agree with you about the church of His people over the building or the sign out front.

    I understand that you would not want to fellowship with those who are doing clear unscriptural things, but I do not believe the things that have been mentioned are unscriptural, but merely preferences. Romans 14 touches on this idea. You and I actually do have the same standard-the Word of God. That does not mean we have come to the exact same conclusion on everything, but continue to study to see how God wants us to live. I do not base what I believe on anything of a man or woman, a tradition, an institution, or how I feel. I do not accept them because I feel like it, but because there is freedom in how we worship and I have no place to condemn where God has not. That is also why the “law of silence” is inconsistent, too. God is not one of obscurity, and if He did not want us to do it-He would have told us. That is why we have freedom-which does not mean anything goes. That is where the expedient/aid argument becomes inconsistent-we are fallible humans, how can we be the ones who decide what is an expedient and what is not, and then try to base one’s salvation on those? I do not see the things you mentioned condemned in the Bible, therefore if God has not condemned it-it is not our place to do so.

    I understand where you are coming from on the women in leadership and you are not alone-but I do disagree, and not just because I am a woman. I have studied this topic for many years, which by no means makes me an expert-but from all I have studied I do not believe that it is wrong for women to participate in leadership roles…but that is a longer study than I could post here.

    I hope that helps.

  98. Well again Corey..

    solos, choirs, musical instruments… that kind of stuff is as I said, petty. Sorry but it just is to me.

    And I will just refer to my post just a few up about this and my opinions on keeping the law as a priority.

  99. Katie and Katherine,

    Thank you both for the discussion. I feel that discussing these things will either show us our knowledge of God’s word or our lack thereof. In that way I think it is healthy, as long as we do so in love and in a respectful way.

    I can see that we are not going to come to an agreement here. There is nothing else I can say that will make you say, “oh, he’s right” and unless I’m shown through scriptures where I’m wrong I also will not concede my points. I used to view things the same way both of you do and so I understand it. It makes me very sad, but I do understand it.

    I’m going to try and let this be my final word on all of this:

    I often think of how Moses was kept from entering the promised land over something I would view as “petty”. I find it hard to believe that God killed Nadab and Abihu over something so “petty”. I am amazed that King Saul lost his throne over using his own judgement…something that I would consider “petty”. The problem is that God didn’t view those things as petty. My ways are not God’s ways and my thoughts are not His thoughts. I will always strive to simply follow his commandments and not decide for myself what is “petty”.

    You should know this – even though I don’t see the ability to add such things to worship as many do (in fact, I see many examples prohibiting such) I hope and pray that they are pleasing to God and that all who seek to follow Him are saved.

    Corey

  100. Your last paragraph makes me smile and so I say with all honesty that I do respect you entirely. Let us all seek to please God above all else… in word and in deed.

  101. The thing Corey that I am finding interesting is that I can see where your point of view is coming from and I truly do feel like you personally have come to those conclusions because above all else you want to please God with your life.

    I am not positive of that with the men who have embarked to represent the CofC in our area. The air of which they give off is not a desire to truly worship the Lord but to condemn and bring down others. I have not gotten that air from you and I appreciate that. Thank you for allowing me the opportunity to gain some insight to your convictions/beliefs.

  102. sidenote question- someone mentioned Max Lucado earlier
    Is Max a CofCer? Is he of the same group that Norm and Johnny come from?

  103. I, too completely agree and believe all of these discussions should be carried out in respect and love, and appreciate you participating in that manner 🙂

    As to the examples you have given-all of them were under Old Testament Law which was definitely very strict in the rules and regulations set forth, and what were to happen to people who clearly disobeyed them. One, we are not under the OT Law because Christ became our New Covenant. Two, none of the things you mentioned were specifically prohibited or condemned, therefore we are not in direct violation or disobedience of a command-which would be very different. I, too try to follow His commandments and be faithful to Him.

    You also said it made you sad to see us believing like you once did, yet I find it sad that people miss out on the freedom and grace of God in the liberties and gifts He has given us, and actually try to limit who He is and what we can offer Him.

    However, I do echo the sentiments of Katie in that I smile at your last sentence 🙂 I pray the same.

  104. I agree with Rick, this blog is moving too fast for me. I’ve only been gone two hours.

    I love this, be silent where the bible is silent bit… How many times have I been to a COC service where a very orderly group of men march down the isle in unison to pick up their designated trays in cerimonial tradition and pass them out in the same type of unison? How about having the collection to be the third part of that Lord’s Supper service? We in the COC say its seperate, but do we practice seperation? many times we don’t. These two rituals are not in the new testiment, yet we do them and its okay. Like Katie said the petty stuff is petty.

  105. and Katherine, we are so like-minded I’m wondering if we weren’t “cut from the same cloth”… lol

  106. I agree again, Katie with what you said about Corey-and appreciate his respect and openness. The men mentioned on this blog are in another breed.

    Max Lucado was the preaching minister at Oak Hills Church of Christ in Texas (now just called Oak Hills Church) for many years before recently stepping down due to health issues. Those in the camp of Johnny and Norm believe Max to be a false teacher for several reasons and believe him to have abandoned the “one true church”. They think this of several CofC preachers who have a more ecumenical view of unity and have more of a “grace-centered theology”. They call us “change agents” and believe we are taking the church into apostasy. Mainly, they choose to cast people like Max off as a false teacher because of their views on instruments and baptism.

    It is sad, but true.

  107. Katie said:

    and Katherine, we are so like-minded I’m wondering if we weren’t “cut from the same cloth”… lol

    Ha ha-I KNOW!! 😉

  108. Katherine, thank you for the info
    I guess I had just never even known that about Max.
    Which makes the whole thing with Norm and Johnny even more interesting to me. Good food for thought.

  109. They are good friends of mine too. Adam is mentioned at the beginning of Royce’s sermon.

    It’s sad that the only moderate COC views on this blog are from the geographical area though.

  110. Having studied with Johnny and crew via email, attending services at Johnnys church and tents – I know for a fact they write off everyone who doesnt adhere to their views and this includes the other church of Christ churches in our area. I suggest that anyone wanting to understand them more study CENI – just Google it.

  111. “If my salvation is dependent upon the act of baptism (which by the way is an action performed by man)and not totally upon action provided by God, then why do I need God.” (Katherine)

    GREAT QUESTION!!!

    The problems with your statement…
    Repentance, (action performed by man)
    Belief, (action performed by man)
    Confession, (action performed by man)

    Salvation (action performed by God)

    We are never deserving of salvation, but God has given
    us the opportunity to accept it(action)…

    Are you also willing to leave out RBC since they to are actions performed by man???

    SORRY I MUST HAVE MISSED YOUR RESPONCE>>>

  112. “I am not positive of that with the men who have embarked to represent the CofC in our area. The air of which they give off is not a desire to truly worship the Lord but to condemn and bring down others. I have not gotten that air from you and I appreciate that.”

    I personally know these guys, I am not a Christian, but I know that they do what they do because they truly want to please God. I know first hand one of them has turned down a very lucrative opportunity, to continue to live a poor mans life working for what he believes in…

  113. Well Katherine what is your take?
    Does God do the believing, repenting, and confessing for us, or is it also an action required on are part???

  114. To clarify, JC-this was Rick’s original post:

    JC, I beg to differ. Baptist didn’t make baptism difficult. As a matter of fact Baptists were first called Baptist because they insisted on baptism following repentance. To a Baptist, baptism is as simple as it gets…you acknowledge your sins, ask for God’s forgiveness, confess Christ as Lord and receive baptism by immersion. No difficulties there.
    If my salvation is dependent upon the act of baptism (which by the way is an action performed by man)and not totally upon action provided by God, then why do I need God.

  115. …and I went back above-there has been much posted today, so I missed some posts and did not even see that this is the second time you had posted this-therefore, I was not ignoring you.

  116. Frank sounds like you know the scriptures I hope you will obey the Gospel before it’s too late.

    Love ya man…

  117. Thanks Katherine for clearing that up…
    I would be interested in you and Rick both clearing up this mystery for me…

  118. Also, JC-you may have answered this and I missed it, but just in case I thought I would repost it again:

    JC, since you wrote this, can you please enlighten us as to where in the Bible does it state one must know this in order for it to be a valid baptism?

    This is what you said:

    What does one have to understand before they can be Baptized?

    1. Know Who Jesus is (God’s Son)
    2. Know What He did for us (lived sinless and died for us)
    3. Know, when we are baptized, that it is for the forgiveness of our sins.

    Thank you for your time.

  119. Saying someone doesn’t have to know they were baptized for remission of sins.
    Would be the same as a Baptist saying someone doesn’t have to understand why they are saying the “sinners prayer for salvation”…

  120. Are you saying that if someone is baptized, but does not fully realize that it is for the remission of sins…that their baptism is invalid and they are not actually saved?

    If you are, please share scripture that states that.

  121. JC
    You were asking about the following statement I posted earlier: If my salvation is dependent upon the act of baptism (which by the way is an action performed by man)and not totally upon action provided by God, then why do I need God.” Let me remark on your statement (Repentance–action performed by man; Belief,–action performed by man;
    Confession–action performed by man; Salvation–action performed by God) then clarify my statements.

    I agree that the acts of Repentance, belief and confessions are actions performed by an individual. I further point out however that these are actions performed in the heart of an individual and that no one else can perform them for you. I can not perform RBC on you. These are actions that you perform of your own volition. Salvation as an action that God and only God can give/perform.

    Now in regards to baptism. I would say that water baptism is an act that one individual performs on/for another individual (Individuals don’t usually baptized themselves and certainly there is no New Testament example of that is there). Now a person could be baptized from sun up to sun down 24hours a day 365 days a year and never receive salvation without RBC and God’s grace of forgiveness. That is why I said my salvation could not be dependent upon baptism (an action performed by man). Let me be brave and go a step further and say that you could repent, believe and confess all you want but if there is no action by God that is if God is not involved and does not forgive Salvation will not happen. But here is the kicker. God has already promised “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved”

    A question for you. Do you believe that in baptism it is the water that accomplishes the act of salvation or the act of obedience to the act of baptism or both.

    Thanks for your considerations.

  122. “Are you saying that if someone is baptized, but does not fully realize that it is for the remission of sins…that their baptism is invalid and they are not actually saved?

    If you are, please share scripture that states that.”

    Yes that is exactly what I am saying…
    Acts 2:38
    Acts 22:16
    Gal 3:27

    These were baptized for the remission of their sins.

    For what reason is someone baptized who doesn’t know baptism is for the remission of sins?

    If they were not baptized as per Acts 2:38 (for remission of sins) then how can their sins be forgiven?

    Ac 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John’s baptism.
    4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
    5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

    Are Baptists and others merely baptized as an outward show of repentance??? If so they need to be baptized into Christ…Just like the ones in the above text…

  123. “A question for you. Do you believe that in baptism it is the water that accomplishes the act of salvation or the act of obedience to the act of baptism or both.”

    It is the simple act of obedience.
    Sure the symbolism is there, but it is in the obedience that we contact the blood.

    Do you belive Christ communes with us during communion?
    I do.
    It’s the same with baptism when we call on the name of the lord by being baptized he washes our sins away…

  124. “I agree that the acts of Repentance, belief and confessions are actions performed by an individual. I further point out however that these are actions performed in the heart of an individual and that no one else can perform them for you. I can not perform RBC on you. These are actions that you perform of your own volition. Salvation as an action that God and only God can give/perform.”

    We are in agreement here, but on baptism I believe you are off base.

    Baptism is a work of the heart also. It is a decision of your own volition. You choose in your heart whether to do it or not. Sure you could throw every what if scenario into the situation. But, if a person is ready and wants to be baptized for the remission of sins, its easy to find someone willing to help. If they have done everything in their power to obey, but certain circumstances prohibit, then somewhere God’s grace is sufficient…But of course God will be the judge of that…

  125. I guess from your last 3 posts JC I would say that your theology is not so different from Baptist theology… certainly not different enough that it would cause any person to say that a Baptist is “not saved”…. it seems like the syntax themselves are what is really preventing us from coming to an agreeable resolution so to speak… or maybe I’m just tired and looking for the easiest solution to a problem that has been made entirely to complicated.

  126. JC Said:

    “Are you saying that if someone is baptized, but does not fully realize that it is for the remission of sins…that their baptism is invalid and they are not actually saved?

    If you are, please share scripture that states that.”

    Yes that is exactly what I am saying…
    Acts 2:38
    Acts 22:16
    Gal 3:27

    Then, JC-you just put yourself in the throne room of the judgment of God, and I am pretty sure that the only person that belongs there is God. It is unbelievable that anyone actually believes that. JC, God made it easy to receive salvation-you are making it hard and to be honest-that frustrates me. You are taking His free gift of salvation and placing most of the responsibility on our shoulders. God is the one who saves.

    It never says in any of the verses you mentioned or anywhere in the Bible that one must fully realize and understand that they are being baptized for the remission of their sins-NOWHERE. You are adding to the Word of God. Yes, He washes away our sins and makes us new-but NOT because we fully understand everything, but because He has promised us…Like Rick said: God has already promised “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved”. Even the verses you mentioned talk about calling on his name, that He will wash our sins away, and that “The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.” (Acts 2:39).

    Bottom line-for you to say that someone’s salvation is invalid has never been up to you or any of us humans, and you have no right to say so. God has invited us to Him and His FREE gift of salvation-all we have to do is respond.There is no need to make it more difficult when He has not made it so.

    He says to us: “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls”.

  127. You actually said it well yourself here:

    “If they have done everything in their power to obey, but certain circumstances prohibit, then somewhere God’s grace is sufficient…But of course God will be the judge of that…”

  128. Well JC at least you are a little more giving in regards to the salvation of those in circumstances that may prohibt baptism. Johnny Robertson, our most notable antagonist, recently wrote a letter (that was published in a local paper) explaining that a teenager who had died at the scene of an auto accident was not saved because even though he had expressed repentance in his dying moments (according to a person on the scene)he was not baptized. You seem to indicate by your response that in this case God’s grace would have been sufficient for his salvation despite the lack of baptism. If I am wrong in this remembrance of events and Johnny’s remarks someone please correct me. But if I am correct about this then JC Your view would put you on the outside of faith with our local coC friends. Isn’t that interesting.

  129. Your got the details right, Rick. You can read more about it here:

    https://answeringchurchofchrist.wordpress.com/2008/03/16/now-this-is-what-it-means-to-be-christian/

    Although I would be very surprised if JC disagreed with Johnny on this point. I have heard Johnny and Norm both preach this – that no matter the circumstances, if you are not baptized by immersion, you are not saved. It seems to be a common hypercon position.

    Which, the thinking person will bring up the thief on the cross. This opens up an entirely new can of worms, including the idea that the thief on the cross was already baptized and a follower of Jesus. I have even heard Norm put forward the theory that the thief was on the cross because he heard the Gospel, repented and was baptized, and then turned himself in as a part of his repentance “process”.

    Of course, the problem here lies in the fact that Scripture tells us that both thieves mocked Christ, so then Norm’s theory falls apart.

    But, as I said, that’s another can of worms.

    Nathan

  130. (You actually said it well yourself here:

    “If they have done everything in their power to obey, but certain circumstances prohibit, then somewhere God’s grace is sufficient…But of course God will be the judge of that…”)

    Thanks Katherine I did say it well.

    The problem is, most people are NOT doing everything in their power to be baptized TO RECIEVE salvation…most of the time they are baptized for outward show of repentance as in John’s Baptism..

  131. Well, I actually meant that I liked the part where you said that God’s grace is sufficient, and that God would be the judge…

    Because you said that before you began claiming people’s baptisms would be invalid because they did not get it exactly right.

    I am going to leave that up to God 🙂

  132. “Although I would be very surprised if JC disagreed with Johnny on this point. I have heard Johnny and Norm both preach this – that no matter the circumstances, if you are not baptized by immersion, you are not saved. It seems to be a common hypercon position.)

    I’ll be glad to answer that for you.

    God’s plan to recieve salvation is
    Believe, Repent, Confess and Get Baptized for salvation

    If someone doesn’t do this then how can they be a Christian?
    The chances of someone NOT BEING PHYSICALLY ABLE to Obey the plan are worse than winning the Lottery.

    Willing but not able, I would think God’s Grace would cover them, But like I said I’m not the judge he is!

    To say that every denomination can claim grace for not being willing to be baptized for salvation is absurd!

    Why is everyone playing the Lottery with their soul?

  133. If you knew you didn’t do it exactly right, then would it be worth your time to take care of that and do it right?

  134. JC, one of the things I was pointing out earlier is that your explaination that some who Believed, Repented and Confessed and was willing to be baptized but was unable to be due to circumstances beyond their control would be saved by the sufficent grace of God (do I have your view wrong?) would not be accepted by our 3 local “hypercon” coC leaders. They would consider your teaching on the matter unscriptural and thus you would be a false teacher. That is the kind of attitude we are dealing with here in our area.

  135. Actually,
    You are wrong on that Rick.
    They understand that God’s Grace can cover them in that situation.
    But they don’t go around preaching the exception rather than the rule.

    I’ll ask you the same question.

    If you knew you didn’t do it exactly right, then would it be worth your time to take care of that and do it right?

  136. I want to be respectful in how I say this but still express my honest feelings nonetheless.
    My experience with the CofC this past week has truly opened my eyes. To what you may ask?

    To the real JOY that I feel in my relationship with my loving Heavenly Father.

    I respect the CofC beliefs and respect their need to follow the letters of the law. They feel they are glorifying God and truly doing what is right and for that I find nothing wrong with them.

    I do however find it sad because I know that I personally could never live under the weight of such rules and regulations. That’s not the God that I know. The God I know, the God whom saved me, called me to His purposes, and whom I commune with daily… doesn’t condemn me for every little action. He calls me to live a life that is holy and blameless, which I strive after daily. But He doesn’t require perfection in order to have that relationship and that love.

    Perhaps I’m missing your intentions JC or not fully understanding your views and that is okay with me because I am not sure that I want to. And again I say that with all due respect.

    I know that my salvation was true and that on judgement day I will hear the words “well done my good and faithful servant”. And I know that in the here and now I have found an inexpressible JOY in serving my Father and following His Word.

  137. Let me clarify,
    They understand God’s Grace Can cover them in that situation, IF he wants to, but again are not willing to gamble with your soul.

  138. Is a rule of being baptized for the remission of sins a heavy burden??
    Too big of a burden for people who are sentenced to death but have been given a way out?

    Katie,
    I’ll ask you too..

    If you knew you didn’t do it exactly right, then would it be worth your time to take care of that and do it right?

  139. While I think I understand your position JC and the position of many other CofCers much better now

    I do not in any way feel the need to do things “exactly right” according to your interpretation of what “right” is nor do I feel anyone is “gambling” with anyone’s soul.

  140. I think the key word JC is “rule”

    I am reading the same Bible you are reading and haven’t read the “rule” as you have read it.

  141. “I do however find it sad because I know that I personally could never live under the weight of such rules and regulations. That’s not the God that I know.”

    Let me clarify Katie I’m talking about the “I AM” the one in the Bible.
    The one who kept Moses on the mountain for 40 days to give him the Law…

  142. Though I appreciate your concern that we who disagree do it “Right”

    I assure you that I am saved. And have done it right.

  143. JC
    it’s interesting to me that you would quote the OT to me because when I tried to do the same to Norm Fields I was told that we no longer live under the law of the OT so your argument according to Norm would be null.

  144. If you knew you didn’t do it exactly right, then would it be worth your time to take care of that and do it right?

    It’s a yes or no question???

  145. And let me clarify to you that I am speaking of the same I AM and the I AM that I am referring to, I accept the laws and commands that He gave clearly in His Word. I will not live however under the man-made laws and additions to that and that is where I find sadness in living under that type of rigidity.

  146. no it’s not a yes or no question JC because I don’t have to question myself. I know that I am saved so your question means nothing to me. Sorry but it doesn’t.

    You can repeat 1 million times and it will never cause me to question myself because I am firm in my assurance and my belief that I have already received my salvation.

  147. There again I think you understand what we believe on the OT vs the NT, but are just trying to outrun the question…

  148. It is an “IF” question to you…

    If you knew you didn’t do it exactly right, then would it be worth your time to take care of that and do it right?

  149. no I’m not
    I answered it

    I believe in the laws and commands of I AM but not of any man.

    I am not following a man and the laws that he wants to create based on what he feels God woulda, coulda, shoulda said.

  150. (katie)”I don’t have to question myself. I know that I am saved so your question means nothing to me.”

    We live in dangerous territory when we are afraid to question ourselves!

  151. and such an “if” question bears no weight for me

    IF that is what we are doing, I’d ask you the same question.
    What “IF” God’s plan of salvation is really not that complicated and following your rigid beliefs you have closed off your mind to experience real joy and freedom in Christ?

  152. JC Said” We live in dangerous territory when we are afraid to question ourselves!”

    I don’t.

    My salvation has been bought and paid for.
    I need not question that.

  153. What “IF” God’s plan of salvation is really not that complicated and following your rigid beliefs you have closed off your mind to experience real joy and freedom in Christ?

    If thats the case “I’m still covered”…

  154. “JC Said” We live in dangerous territory when we are afraid to question ourselves!”

    I don’t.

    My salvation has been bought and paid for.
    I need not question that”(katie)

    Everyone’s salvation has been bought and paid for…
    The question is who is going to reach out and accept it by obeying the Gospel.

  155. It is an “IF” question to you…

    If you knew you didn’t do it exactly right, then would it be worth your time to take care of that and do it right?

  156. so you’re firm in your salvation

    and I’m firm in mine

    the difference I feel? I respect that about you and believe that you are saved. I don’t feel that same respect from you and the Fields/Robertson crew.

  157. I am doing my best to not be trite JC
    but the “if” question is truly annoying.

    My salvation is bouth and paid for.
    I HAVE accepted that salvation, thank you.
    I have no doubts.

  158. What do you folks think about this explaination from Thayer’s and Smith’s Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (based on studies of the orginial Greek) of the word “for” in Acts 2:38 (Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    For” (as used in Acts 2:38 “for the forgiveness…”) could have two meanings. If you saw a poster saying “Jesse James wanted for robbery”, “for” could mean Jesse is wanted so he can commit a robbery, or is wanted because he has committed a robbery. The later sense is the correct one. So too in this passage, the word “for” signifies an action in the past. Otherwise, it would violate the entire tenor of the NT teaching on salvation by grace and not by works.

  159. Hey Katie, There are many of us in the CofC who know what you know, and see what you see-which makes us “outcasts” in some CofC circles-but I don’t care-b/c that is not who I follow, what I put my faith in, or where my loyalties lie-those are founded and focused directly on Jesus and His will and calling. It is my heritage and my family which I cherish, but it certainly does not end there. That does not always jive with certain CofC beliefs, but I will always follow Jesus and the Bible-because that is what matters and is what I follow. Thankfully, there is a movement within the CofC (that these guys call the “change agent movement” and think it is apostasy) that is grace centered and sees the bigger picture. There ARE many in the CofC who have found the joy, love, and grace found in Jesus-and live in it-which is evident in their lives. I pray that this movement continues and sweeps through our churches so that the focus is taken off of a rigid line of doctrine and placed on Christ.

    That is not the God I know, either-He is not a dictator or a taskmaster that is making sure I get every single thing perfectly right or else He is waiting to condemn me. He is not that kind of God, and I could not imagine attempting to live under such a rigid way of life because you will never arrive-it is like a dog chasing its tail, and your salvation is never “sure”. I KNOW my salvation is sure because God promised it to me as a GIFT out of his overflowing love and grace. I find pure JOY in God-even during the hard times, because I know He has called me to Him and is faithful.

    And you know-I never found that in a doctrine or a certain church, but in a relationship with my Father and the His love that has been shown me through His people. I place my hope, my faith, my trust, and my salvation in HIM, and Him alone.

    You are my kindred sister 🙂

  160. well daddy
    🙂

    I’m thinking that’s exactly what I have always felt and known that scripture meant. 😉 But you already knew my answer.

  161. What “IF” God’s plan of salvation is really not that complicated and following your rigid beliefs you have closed off your mind to experience real joy and freedom in Christ?

    Great question, Katie!! 🙂

  162. I don’t understand how the question is soooo hard!
    “If you knew you didn’t do it exactly right, then would it be worth your time to take care of that and do it right?”

    Katie said: “I respect that about you and believe that you are saved. I don’t feel that same respect from you and the Fields/Robertson crew”

    Katie, I respect you as a person or else I wouldn’t be here.
    But If to gain your respect I must say “I think you are saved even though you haven’t obeyed the Gospel” that would be dishonest…

  163. I am not going to answer the “if” question because that would be saying that I have the slightest inkling that my salvation is false and I have no doubt that I have received the freely given salvation of Jesus Christ into my life. I need not question it.

  164. it’s not the question is “sooooo hard” its that its a pointless question for me because I do not question my salvation at all.

  165. Take acts 2:38 and Harmonize it with all other scriptures on salvation “BPCB” and you can easily see that “For” means in order to obtain.

    Acts 2:38 “The Jews allready believed, but were not saved” they asked what MUST we DO?
    repent and be baptized FOR the remission of sins…

    What do Thayers and Smiths say the word MUST means?

  166. Someone point out the BCV that tells me that I must believe in or confess baptism as an act of or for salvation.

    Here’s a BCV that tells me that I must confess and believe in Jesus to be saved: Acts 10:9. Acts 16:31 tells me that if I believe on Jesus I will be saved

  167. Katherine said: “JC, you have said it yourself: God’s grace is sufficient.

    Why do you keep pushing this?”

    Just curious is there some Physical reason why you couldn’t be baptized for the right reason? Why are you trying to claim grace for unwillingness to recieve through obedience…
    It’s not the same…

    It’s proving that you guys are unwilling to accept that you might be wrong…

    If you knew you didn’t do it exactly right, then would it be worth your time to take care of that and do it right?

  168. What I’m saying JC is that I’m not wrong.
    I have been baptized as an act of obedience following through with the commitment I have made to Jesus Christ and the salvation I have received THROUGH Jesus Christ.

    I need not question anything.

  169. Right… and obeying the Gospel is to confess Jesus Christ as Lord… and I’ve done that. So I’m saved so you can stop worrying about me.

  170. Not to be picky or contrite but in Acts 2:37 KJV, the question was “What shall we do”, not what must we do.
    Big difference in shall and must.

  171. JC, I don’t understand what you are asking-you have no idea when, why, how, or where I was baptized-or any of us for that matter. I am not trying to claim grace anywhere it has not been given. I am not and have not been unwilling-I have obeyed. My salvation has been promised to me through the GIFT of God-I never had to work for it. I may be wrong on other things, but I have assurance through my Father that He has saved me and stand firm on that-which is what He has called us to. I will not sway-I am a saved child of the King, and I put my 100% trust and faith in that.

    Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. ~2 Corinthians 1:21-22

    You are doing exactly what Norm and the other guys try to do-try to PROVE everyone else WRONG-for what? There are millions of people out there who have NEVER heard that name of Jesus and are not saved!! We need to be going to them-not questioning everyone else’s salvation. Have you seen us question yours?!

  172. Well I believe that is false doctrine because…you are pitting scripture against scripture instead of harmonizing scripture.

    Take all verses on Salvation, not just one…

    In order to hold that postition you have to say that these scriptures are false
    Acts 2:38
    1 Peter 3:21
    Mark 16:16
    Gal 3:27
    Rom 6:3
    Col 2:12 and so on…

  173. Just to clarify: I do TRULY believe in Jesus and have obeyed Him and have been baptized in HIM, and am trying to follow Him faithfully in all that I do-no need to worry about me, either.

  174. harmonize all those verses with
    John 3:16-17
    Romans 10:9-10
    John 14:6

    I agree with you that those verses are vital and that they mean everything, they are God-breathed

    but you cannot ignore scripture that clearly says that Christ is THE way of salvation either

  175. Katie said: “harmonize all those verses with
    John 3:16-17
    Romans 10:9-10
    John 14:6”

    Exactly Katie thats what I’m saying if you harmonize you have to say all the verses play a part in salvation including the ones on baptism

  176. and I would agree JC
    we are not too divided over the fact that baptism IS important

    I do NOT believe however that salvation is dependent ON the baptism because I HAVE harmonized the scriptures all together

  177. I would say Baptism does NOT also save us…
    there is no saving factor in the ACT of baptism or in the water itself… but in the blood of Jesus Christ and the belief in His death and resurrection

  178. (Katherine said) “Aw, man I was trying to finish your sentence, Katie

    Gotta be fast around here!”

    I know I’m having a hard time keeping up too

  179. Katie said: “I HAVE harmonized the scriptures all together”

    Well I will definately say I am not perfect, nor do I know everything, but as I learn I am definately not afraid to make a change even if it was to humble myself enough to be baptized right.(JC)

  180. I cannot stop thinking about John 3:17
    For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

  181. Wow, this place is just chugging along.

    I wanted to clarify something – way back a couple of dozen comments ago, JC wrote:
    “Actually,
    You are wrong on that Rick.
    They understand that God’s Grace can cover them in that situation.
    But they don’t go around preaching the exception rather than the rule.”

    Actually, JC, you are wrong. I have heard Norm Fields say emphatically that if a person were to die before getting “baptized by immersion for the remission of sins” (the example he was talking about was a soldier on the battlefield), that person would be lost. God’s grace wouldn’t have any bearing on the situation.

    He was most emphatic about it. I was shocked.

    Nathan

  182. JC I commend you on holding your own here in these discussions. Forgive us if we seem to be “ganging up” on you. Unfortunately you are the only one with your particular view involved at the moment so you get all of our focus. Aren’t you lucky.:)

    Would it be fair to say JC that you see baptism as a precondition to salvation? Do you also view that baptism is only legit if you confess baptism as necessary for salvation? Is that the “right way” of salvation that you are speaking of?

  183. “to be baptized right”

    that one phrase right there is so high and mighty to me

    Thank you for your concern JC but I have been saved and to question my salvation is to question the blood of Jesus which is blasphemy and something I will NOT do.

    I (I stress the word I) don’t need to change anything to make my salvation more “real” or “effective”. My salvation was not something that I achieved on my own but something that I freely accepted. I have nothing to question.

  184. Nathan,
    Norm also knows that God’s grace is to be applied in certain situations.
    Which situations is not his place nor mine to say.

    OUR JOB is to be sure we do the best we can to get it right. When we see others telling people to do it half way and leave out what God has asked of us, Our job is to speak up.

    How are you or Norm or anybody going to tell someone not to worry about being baptized because God’s grace will cover you in spite of your unwillingness to obey.

  185. Well I will definately say I am not perfect, nor do I know everything, but as I learn I am definately not afraid to make a change even if it was to humble myself enough to be baptized right.(JC)

    I am with you on most of this sentence-I am definitely not perfect nor do I know everything-and I constantly strive to be learning and growing. I am humble enough to continue to study and admit when I am wrong. But, I am with Katie-there are some things I do KNOW, and that is one of them-I am saved by the blood of Christ-it is not about being “baptized right”-but about what Christ does. We respond-He does the rest. Let me repeat this passage:

    “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.” ~Matthew 11:28-29

  186. I know that I personally don’t tell someone “not to worry about being baptized”

    The youth that I counsel and teach about salvation, I also teach about the obedience of baptism. But I do not believe that its the water of baptism that brings salvation but the blood of Jesus Christ.

  187. mercy me, my poor connection in my office is terrible..hard to keep up with you folks. Don’t take any lack of comments on my part in the next few hours as anything but that I am away from this silly pc. Folks I have sermons to work on and food to eat (since it’s lunch time)so I bid you good day.

    May God bless you JC, Katie, Nathan, Katherine and others watching from the sidelines with His grace today! 🙂

  188. Katherine said: “We respond-He does the rest.”

    Amen

    How we believe the bible sais to respond(action) is where we differ….

  189. JC said: How are you or Norm or anybody going to tell someone not to worry about being baptized because God’s grace will cover you in spite of your unwillingness to obey.

    JC, I don’t want to speak for anyone else-but I don’t believe anyone has ever said here that we are expecting God’s grace to cover someone’s unwillingness to obey. It is one thing to outright reject Jesus and another thing to not understand everything perfectly. I would never just throw away baptism because I believe it is a beautiful and wonderful significant act that unites us with the death and ressurection of Jesus, and that is amazing. Romans describes that beautifully. But I do not believe that the ACT itself is the whole manner of salvation-it is God and the sacrifice of Jesus through the blood He shed on the cross that saves us from our sins. He gave us a GIFT-we need only respond.

  190. JC said “How about your prayer for salvation Katie???”

    I know enough about the CofC to know that there is a particular issue with what a lot of baptists (in particular) call the “sinners prayer”

    I am not one of those people.
    I don’t believe there is any ritualistic prayer that someone must say to be saved.

    For me personally, my father (ie Rick one here) prayed with me when I was a lot younger one evening. I said to him that I wanted to Jesus to come into my heart that I believed that Jesus died for my sins and wanted to ask forgiveness of those sins. So I remember praying. The exact words? Don’t remember. I know that I talked to God and confessed my belief in Jesus Christ as His Son and in His death on the cross. I asked for forgiveness of my sins and said I wanted to live my life with Him.

    I mean that would be the summary of my “salvation experience”.

    But I don’t believe theres magic words or a special prayer that brings about that salvation.

  191. JC said:

    I was simply verifying the message that Rick was trying to put out, that you said was wrong. It was not wrong – it was an accurate representation of the teachings of the three men.

    “Norm also knows that God’s grace is to be applied in certain situations. Which situations is not his place nor mine to say.”

    That might be so, but the message of God’s grace doesn’t come through on their programs very often.

    Other commenters who watch them, am I off-base about this?

    Nathan

  192. If I told someone on the street to “stop” it wouldn’t mean much…
    If I told someone to “STOP in the name of the Law” maybe it would hold weight…

    Just curious
    In whose name did you pray the sinners prayer?
    Because you can’t pray by the authority of Christ, if you are not in Christ.
    And you get in Christ by Baptism Gal 3:27 Romans 6:3…

  193. Joh 9:31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.

  194. I did not pray the “sinners prayer”
    but yes I did speak to God

    call it wrong all you want but in Romans 10:9-10 it says that “If you confess with your mouth that Jesus if Lord and believe in your heart that God raise Him from the dead you will be saved”… and that is just what I did.”

  195. at the moment that I was confessing belief in Jesus Christ I was also asking forgiveness of those sins.

    So I guess somewhere in scripture you have found the verse that says “and if anymany would come to me and get baptized then my death on the cross will mean anything”…

    that’s what it sounds like to me.

    Sorry Jc your efforts are going to be wasted on me because you will not convince me that I need to do anything to be “baptized right” or to make my salvation “exactly right”. I am saved.

    I am not trying to be nasty but you are borderlining on entirely offensive to me.

  196. JC
    I am finished speaking with you about this subject

    Sorry.

    I “hear” an air of sarcasm and nastiness which is unacceptable me and I will not tolerate it in a debate in which I felt I was giving you every respect.

  197. Katie said: “call it wrong all you want but in Romans 10:9-10 it says that “If you confess with your mouth that Jesus if Lord and believe in your heart that God raise Him from the dead you will be saved”… and that is just what I did.””

    Well Katie what did you do about the rest of the bible?

  198. You are hanging in there with him a lot better than I think I would at this point, Katie!! But you are doing a great job of “Always being prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have”!!

    JC, there are millions of people out there who have NEVER heard of Jesus!! We have Him-you are preaching to the choir here. Let’s go share Him with a lost world!!

  199. I’m sorry you feel that way Katie, but that’s your decision.
    That’s the problem with not meeting face to face. You misread peoples attitudes toward others.

    Sorry if I seemed insensetive, but I too am not Going to say something is “OK” when I believe it’s not.

  200. JC, you want “the rest of the Bible”? Check out my next major post. We can pick up these conversations there if people think this one has gotten too long.

    Nathan

  201. This has got to be the fastest movest thread that I have ever seen. By the time I have a thought, 30 new comments have been made. You guys know how I feel about the hard-line legalists in the Churches of Christ but I must add something here. We must look at scripture in whole, we must look what the early church fathers have taught, we must look at what the early church taught. If we do in all honesty, we will see what role baptism has in the life of faith. In baptism, the stain of original sin is removed, in baptism we become his children and apart of his church universal. Though I respect that approaches to scripture can leave us on opposite sides of a doctrinal issue, truth can not be denied here on what the faith has always taught. I think we all know that simply repeating a “sinners prayer” is not how one is redeemed.

  202. I’m sorry if I have seemed uncaring or sarcastic.
    That is the problem with blogging vs “face to face”
    you can’t see someones true attitude and motives.

    If your saying I should say everyone is “OK” no matter how the believe on baptism. I can’t. That would be a lie on my part…

  203. JP Manzi, may I just say that I don’t call it simply praying a prayer. I call it confessing Christ.

    I agree though that baptism is vitally important.

  204. The problem is JC, what authority do you have to privately interpret scripture and bind (what you believe to be truth) on others? Thousands upon thousands of denominations claiming all Truth is in scripture and can be known. Yet, though honest in their endeavors, we are left with confusion as we have many folks claiming truth in their interpretations. That is a HUGE problem for me

  205. Katie,

    What is confessing Christ? and what part does obedience play in the christian walk?

    Confessing Christ is vitally important but how do we ignore church history and the early church fathers on these matters. (I also want you to understand that I consider you a sister in Christ, so please do not think I would believe otherwise. I do believe in a gracious Father, not a Judge waving his hand around waiting for me to get something wrong)

  206. JP said: “In baptism, the stain of original sin is removed, in baptism we become his children and apart of his church universal. Though I respect that approaches to scripture can leave us on opposite sides of a doctrinal issue, truth can not be denied here on what the faith has always taught. I think we all know that simply repeating a “sinners prayer” is not how one is redeemed.”

    I seem to agree with you JP…

  207. “confessing Christ”- believing that Jesus is Lord, and was raised from the dead (romans 10:9-10)

    and I agree that obedience is a huge part of the Christian walk… not sure what you meant by that question

  208. JC said:

    If your saying I should say everyone is “OK” no matter how the believe on baptism. I can’t. That would be a lie on my part…

    I am not asking you to do that, nor do I doubt that Katie or anyone on here is asking you to do that. But, I do believe you are placing more of the gift of salvation on what we can do rather than what God does. I don’t think it is up to us to question someone else’s salvation-which is what I saw you continue to do with Katie after she told you over and over that she was saved, have been baptized, etc-and then kept going on about what prayer she prayed-which I imagine is b/c she said she grew up in the Baptist church. Rather, we are supposed to be sharing the Good News of the message of salvation to all who will listen-not questioning those who Jesus has already saved. God will take care of that!

  209. “The problem is JC, what authority do you have to privately interpret scripture and bind (what you believe to be truth) on others? Thousands upon thousands of denominations claiming all Truth is in scripture and can be known. Yet, though honest in their endeavors, we are left with confusion as we have many folks claiming truth in their interpretations. That is a HUGE problem for me”

    The scripture is of “NO private interpretation”, So we need to take Heed to the word of prophecy…

    2Pe 1:19 ¶ We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye TAKE HEED, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
    20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
    21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
    (KJV)

    JP, I think you can be too lax in scripture(liberal) and you can add things to scripture to make them to strict(anti-ism). The truth is always in the middle I try to follow the scripture as it was given by the Holy Ghost.
    It is up to each of us to find the truth. If that means the scripture teaches someone is living in sin, I have to preach it, it is not my fault…

  210. JP,
    Since we seem to somewhat agree…

    I’m not judging you here it is a rhetorical question:

    It is an “IF” question to you…

    If you knew you didn’t do it exactly right, then would it be worth your time to take care of that and do it right?

  211. “JP, I think you can be too lax in scripture(liberal) and you can add things to scripture to make them to strict(anti-ism). The truth is always in the middle I try to follow the scripture as it was given by the Holy Ghost.
    It is up to each of us to find the truth. If that means the scripture teaches someone is living in sin, I have to preach it, it is not my fault…”

    This is the most sensible thing I think I’ve read from someone with your doctrinal bent, JC.

  212. Restate the question to everyone:
    If you were baptized, but not baptized for remission of sins. Then would it be worth your time, effort, and humbleness to do it for the right reason?

  213. Restate the question to everyone:
    If you were baptized with the baptism of repentance, but not baptized for remission of sins. Then would it be worth your time, effort, and humbleness to do it for the right reason?

  214. Where do you find that you must be baptized for the “right” reason, and that it must KNOW it is for the remission of sins? I think that is wherein lies the problem-you are still making it more of what we do than what God does. In my opinion, you are taking away power from the cross and what He has already done by asking these questions.

  215. I was baptised for remission of my sins, but it wasn’t the baptism that saved me- Christ did based on my faithful confession of him. Katie, Rick,Nathan, etc… also chose to act on faithful confession of Christ and I believe are saved whether their baptism was like mine or not, and they have provided scripture to back them up. If they are playing the lottory with their soul, we all are, even us COCers. We are human, none of us, even in the COC get everything right. (God will have a lot of questions from me when I get to see Him face to face.) We in the COC don’t have God’s knowledge and so we interperate the bible the best we can, but so does every one else on this blog who are not in the COC.

  216. JC, there is only one baptism and God does his work through baptism. It would be making it my work if I had to have the complete educational understanding of baptism. What God does in and through baptism is a mystery to us all. So no, I agree with you on the importance of baptism but disagree on what one must completely understand.

  217. God does the work of salvation in Baptism.
    We submit to him by being Baptized with the Baptism that he has asked us to submit to.

    What Baptism are you submitting to?
    Repentance? (John’s Baptism)
    or Forgiveness?

    And if one is as good as the other why were the 12 men Baptized over, for the right reason? Acts 19

  218. Restate the question to everyone:
    If you were baptized with the baptism of repentance, but not baptized for remission of sins. Then would it be worth your time, effort, and humbleness to do it for the right reason?

  219. Nathan,

    Please explain why not standing during a hymn displays contempt? We have no problems with visitors who would show their disagreement in the same fashion where we assemble as long as there is order. Nothing was out of order in refusing to stand and instead sitting quietly. Yet the Pastor for Vandola wants to think he can justify one of his member’s unruly behavior on the basis that said member is upset over “their blatant display of contempt (sitting quietly?? -jn) in our worship service”.

    And as for the questioning that Norm and Mark participated in: We encourage our visitors to ask questions; why is it you all have such a phobia about questioning and disagreement? Aren’t we commanded to answer valid questions? – 1 Pet 3:15.

    Is everyone who defends Vandola so dishonest that you would allow somone to defend unruly behavior (a threat to do physical harm, no less) just because you dislike someone’s disagreement with you? Surely would wouldnt treat a friend or spouse in the same fashion just because they disagree. This blog is not a place that seeks unbiased truth as it would claim. Rather, this blog is simply becoming a haven for individuals who are irked and irritated by another groups conviction, and that conviction really doesnt do them any harm other than upset their comfort zone.

    Joey

  220. JC,

    The problem with the necessity of having full complete knowledge in order to submit out of obedience to the Lord in baptism is, where is line in the sand drawn? What about faith then? How much knowledge must one have? Do we have to know how old Jesus was? How long on the cross? Must we know all 4 gospels verbatim? Where do you draw the line.

  221. Joey wrote:

    Nathan,

    Please explain why not standing during a hymn displays contempt? We have no problems with visitors who would show their disagreement in the same fashion where we assemble as long as there is order. Nothing was out of order in refusing to stand and instead sitting quietly. Yet the Pastor for Vandola wants to think he can justify one of his member’s unruly behavior on the basis that said member is upset over “their blatant display of contempt (sitting quietly?? -jn) in our worship service”.”

    I think the problem lies in Norm’s response – that he came to “learn and to give us an opportunity to explain why we did what we did and what we believed”. The reputation these men have gained in our area is such that it would be difficult to believe that Norm’s and Mark’s motivation was the pursuit of knowledge – and if he wanted to give them the chance to explain why they do what they did, there are more appropriate times and places. Invite Rick out to coffee and discuss over a cup of Starbucks. I understand that Norm is from out of town and perhaps doesn’t understand Southern protocol and decorum – but perhaps it would behoove him to learn.

    I certainly don’t have a problem with a person not standing if they don’t believe. I once visited a mosque, and didn’t take part in the prayers, but observed from the back. However, the Muslims taking part in that prayer service didn’t see me coming on TV each week blasting their faith, and so they apparently respected my reasons for not participating. If I was a recognized anti-Muslim figure (I think our local CofC men could be called “anti-Baptist”), they might not have been so glad to have me there.

    And as for you guys welcoming questions in the CofC churches, well good on ya mate. But, you need to also show respect for your hosts. For example, in the church I attend, we play guitars during worship. What if I came to visit the church YOU attend and whipped out my guitar during the worship time and said “Well, this is how we do things back at the church I attend!” Would you appreciate that? Or would you see it as disrespectful? I would imagine that there would be the distinct possibility that someone might physically threaten me if I did such a thing.

    Hmm.. maybe I will – just as a learning experience, or to give some church of Christ folks the chance to explain why they believe what they believe… and I’ll tape it with a secret camera and post it up on youtube! Yeah, that’ll be great!

    Just kidding. I wouldn’t be so disrespectful.

    Joey wrote:

    “Is everyone who defends Vandola so dishonest that you would allow somone to defend unruly behavior (a threat to do physical harm, no less) just because you dislike someone’s disagreement with you?”

    Who is defending unruly behavior? Look back at the original post – Rick himself apologized for the hotheaded person who responded roughly to Norm.

    Joey wrote:

    “This blog is not a place that seeks unbiased truth as it would claim. Rather, this blog is simply becoming a haven for individuals who are irked and irritated by another groups conviction, and that conviction really doesnt do them any harm other than upset their comfort zone.”

    I seem to notice that we have at least three regular commenters currently who would support Johnny, James and Norm. Am I shutting them down? No – I want the free-flow of ideas. That’s how we get closer to understanding and mutual respect. If everyone remains civil and respectful (which everyone is doing – thanks, everyone!) we don’t have a problem with presenting all the different sides of these issues on this blog.

    Not to say that I am unbiased. I have my own thoughts and beliefs regarding the way hyperconservative churches of Christ teachers and preachers interpret the Word (disagree with some, agree with some), and that was the reason I started this blog – so we could have a place to discuss our thoughts without their fingers on the mute button. And it seems to be a popular place to do such a thing.

    And what are blogs for if not for discussing points of view?

    Nathan

  222. Jp said:
    “The problem with the necessity of having full complete knowledge in order to submit out of obedience to the Lord in baptism is, where is line in the sand drawn? What about faith then? How much knowledge must one have? Do we have to know how old Jesus was? How long on the cross? Must we know all 4 gospels verbatim? Where do you draw the line.”

    I never said we must have full complete knowledge of the bible. I submit that we must know the basics of the Gospel (Death, Burial, Resurection and the plan of redemtion including How to call on the name of the Lord thru baptism for salvation.

  223. Nathan wrote:

    “And as for you guys welcoming questions in the CofC churches, well good on ya mate. But, you need to also show respect for your hosts”

    – No disrespect in sitting quitely. Their service was never interrupted. Questions were before service and/or after dismissal.

    Nathan Wrote:

    “I would imagine that there would be the distinct possibility that someone might physically threaten me if I did such a thing.”

    …And what experience might this be based on? You’ve never been in our midst during any such occurence. We’ve had an individual stand up in our tent meeting during Q&A session and scream at the top of his lungs in “tongue speaking”; no harm was ever threatened. But you want to put us on their level as if we would act the way they would. We obviously have experience that others do us that way however.

    Nathan wrote:

    ” I understand that Norm is from out of town and perhaps doesn’t understand Southern protocol and decorum – but perhaps it would behoove him to learn.”

    I have no idea what that has to do with anything. Do you need to know California culture to explain to a gang member that they can’t murder people?

    Nathan wrote:

    “Hmm.. maybe I will – just as a learning experience, or to give some church of Christ folks the chance to explain why they believe what they believe… and I’ll tape it with a secret camera and post it up on youtube! Yeah, that’ll be great!”

    – You can be snide in your remarks if you like, but we have no problem with you asking questions. We always offer the chance, with the understanding that it is orderly.

    Joey

  224. You still don’t seem to understand what I’m saying, Joey.

    The disrespect was in Norm’s very presence, because of the reputation he and the other two have built in this community. If Mark had come alone, nobody would have thought a thing, b/c nobody would have known who he is was. Right or wrong, people in churches other than Danville CofC, Martinsville CofC and Reidsville CofC – if they recognized these three men – would get immediately defensive if one of them walked in their church building during a worship service – why? Because of the way that they’ve treated churches since Johnny started his “missionary work” in the area with his broadcasts.

    And it’s just not appropriate to try and engage the speaker (especially a guest speaker) in a doctrinal debate after the service as he is greeting people. “Pastor, I’d like to get together with you to ask you some questions. Are you free after this is all over?” would be the polite thing to do. I’d guess you don’t agree with this, but it’s just the way it is with the churches I’ve attended. In some churches (even outside of the hyperconservative churches of Christ) questions would be welcomed at any point. I’ll come back to this.

    My comment about what might happen if I whipped out a guitar and started playing during worship is not based on experience but supposition – which is why I said the word “imagine”. It might not happen – and in the same token – there have been churches that were very welcoming to our trio, but got skewered on their broadcasts later even so.

    As to the comment about Norm being from out of town, it might just be a southern thing – but you don’t disrupt a church service in the south and expect people to not get upset about it. And as I’ve explained, if they are recognized, Norm’s and Johnny’s very presence is disruptive because of what people assume they are up to.

    And your last comment tells me that you didn’t get my point. It was not to be snide – but to show you just how irritating and often inappropriate Johnny, Norm and James are with their methods. It was a “shoe on the other foot” comment. I’m sorry if it came off as snide.

    Again, my point was that if I came and by my very presence did something to disrupt your meeting, it would not be appreciated. Obviously, asking questions wouldn’t be disruptive. I was imagining a scenario that would be disruptive, and I still think my imagined scenario would be. But, I could be wrong. But, I hope that now you see my point.

    Nathan

  225. Johnny,

    Thanks for posting. Please feel free to post any time. We’d love to have your input in our conversations.

    The article you linked to was interesting. If I may, I have another interesting article to direct folks to:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restoration_Movement

    Especially down in the article where it says “Church of Christ schisms and fellowship efforts”.

    Johnny, are the churches of Christ in our community all unified – in other words – can you all fellowship together, worship together, pray together? And if you don’t – then why don’t you?

    Thank you,
    Nathan

  226. I appreciate Nathan’s responses. And I agree with his understanding of the events at our church with Norm and Mark. It certainly is as Nathan suggest.

    If Norm and his oft spoken disdain for Baptist was not well known in our area, If he was a complete stranger, If he came to our church with a sincere desire to learn of our Scriptural teachings our response to him would be different. But the truth of the matter is, is that Norm has expressed often on his broadcast that those who call themselves Baptist were unsaved, that Baptist teaching and worship practices were unscriptural. He admitted to me that he could not and would not participate in our worship because he could not recognize such as Scriptural, a view expressed on his program. He tells his viewers that Vandola had no idea if they were strangers who sincerely came searching for the truth or individuals who might have come seeking salvation. We knew exactly who they were (I know Mark—Mark was once a member at Vandola and he had been to the church by himself on one occasion to “question us”–although I was not totally sure that the person with him on the night in question was Norm I suspected as much. I asked Norm for his name as he left the sanctuary to be sure before responding to him…Norm I might add looks different in person than he does on camera..actually you look better in person Norm).

    That is my point of contention with their visit. Norm doesn’t need to ask any Baptist church why they teach what they teach, he already knows the answer. Norm doesn’t come to any church to worship with them or to learn from them or to dialogue with them. He comes to teach what he believes, to correct what he believes to be errors of beleif. He comes in a spirit of disdain for the teaching and practices of other churches and in an attitude of deceit (deceit in that he purposely fails to mention that he or others with him are secretly recording conversations in order that they can broadcast portions of the conversation on television in an effort to prove the errors of their teachings and often to poke fun at those they record).

    Critize me all you want for asking Norm and Mark to leave. I feel no guilt. Jesus didn’t receive the pharisee with warmth when they came with their deceptive spirit into His presence either.

    I dare Norm to post this entire block of my comments on his website or better still on his broadcast without editing or selective posting.

  227. hi nathan,
    a couple of weeks ago i called johnny at the end
    of his show.
    i cant remember what i called to talk about.
    after some conversation i said to him that there
    was no way that everyone in his congregation believed
    exactly the same thing. at which point he offered to have me come over and speak to them at a service.
    i countered with speaking to them personally through
    a list. he declined and said that i was like everyone else “just a lot of talk”. when i continued with my
    point about him not knowing that there had to be some
    difference of opinion in his members, he said that
    “i couldnt be sure that my wife wasnt cheating on me”
    now ladies and gentlemen thats the true johnny robertson. after a little more baiting on his part and
    threatening to tape our conversation……..which i
    told him he should,maybe put it on a loop, he hung up.
    now you guys are spending way to much time debating
    topics you are never going to agree on.
    the crux of the whole mater is this…. these men despise us. and will do and say anything to to degrade you. and while im here let me say that no man would
    would say that to me in person…..no man.
    in person i would have
    helped mr robinson with his problem.
    i aint mad at ya tough guy at Vandola
    lee

  228. Lee wrote:

    “these men despise us. and will do and say anything to to degrade you”

    Then Lee wrote:

    “let me say that no man would
    would say that to me in person…..no man.
    in person i would have
    helped mr robinson with his problem.
    i aint mad at ya tough guy at Vandola”

    Ok Nathan, now are you going to oppose Lee who thinks he can make threats, or are you going to apologize in his place and then make an excuse as to why he is:

    #1 – hypocritical
    #2 – physically minded

    Joey

  229. joseph,
    what i have written i have written.
    i didnt expect any defense from anyone.
    let me address your concerns.
    one that i am hypocritical. i said that there have to be different opinions among his congregation, not an unreasonable thought. what do i get in response? a comment designed to incite me.
    now as to what i wrote i plead guilty to the fact that i
    would never accept an insult concerning my wife.
    god will judge me and peter, he cut off someones ear you know.
    and that also ties in to your second concern, that
    im physically minded. i will offer this to you. its true only in these matters concerning my family.
    the difference between me and other holier than thous
    is that ill tell you up front. i know that nothing is hidden from god…….. you might as well fess up
    if i insulted your wife to your face you would probably pop me too.
    so whos really continually looking into the mirror
    of the word of god.
    i would suggest that im quite aware of what i look like.
    amen
    lee

  230. Joey wrote:

    “Ok Nathan, now are you going to oppose Lee who thinks he can make threats, or are you going to apologize in his place and then make an excuse as to why he is:

    #1 – hypocritical
    #2 – physically minded”

    Joey,

    Lee wasn’t making threats – he was expressing his opinion about a conversation he had with Johnny. And you have to admit what Lee reports Johnny as saying was pretty inappropriate (If Johnny wants to come here and explain his comment, that would be helpful, btw). If Lee had said, “I’m going to track Johnny down and help him with his problem”, that would have been a threat – and I might have asked that he not make such statements on this blog, because it would not be helpful.

    But he didn’t threaten anyone. He commented about his emotional reaction to Johnny’s allegedly inappropriate comment about his wife. I actually call that being open and honest, not hypocritical and physically minded.

    As to his being hypocritical and physically minded, I’d guess that we all are at times. But, I don’t personally know Lee to make that sort of judgment, or to “oppose him” for it. Do you know him well enough to say that those things are true about him, or are you just making a snap judgment after Lee makes one comment about an emotional reaction he says that he had with Johnny?

    Nathan

  231. Nathan,

    You still don’t get my point. Once again you have demonstrated you will defend someone who is on your side instead of being honest that what he said was a threat —

    “in person i would have
    helped mr robinson with his problem”

    is no different than:

    “I’m going to track Johnny down and help him with his problem”

    They both imply that if there were physical proximity then violence would have occured.

    You did just like I thought. You try to explain, qualify or jusitfy a negative response based on emotion and then accuse me of making a snap judgment (the same thing Lee did)

    You promote civility above first amendment rights (which I support you on), but I’m sorry If I can’t help but see that you won’t practice it on someone whe seems to side with you.

    Joey

  232. To Lee’s comment:

    “god will judge me and peter, he cut off someones ear you know”

    I suppose that example justifies your threat? The Lord rebuked Peter for cutting off Malchus’ ear – Jn 18:11.

    You also said:
    “you might as well fess up
    if i insulted your wife to your face you would probably pop me too.”

    My wife has been insulted before. I never threatened anyone, much less done physical harm to them.

    Joey

  233. Joey, I know you think you’re scoring some sort of point with this, but you are not.

    A threat, according to the dictionary, is “an expression of intention to inflict evil, injury, or damage.” Did Lee communicate that his intention was to do bodily harm to Johnny? No. Did Lee communicate that he was angry at Johnny’s inappropriate remarks? Yes. There is a difference.

    Lee said, “in person I would have…” He didn’t say that he told Johnny he was going to do anything to him – he said that it was how he felt. I would have been upset by that comment, too. Enough to fight? Probably not, because it’s not my way. But I can empathize with him in his response.

    Again – it isn’t a threat. It’s an emotional response.

    What is interesting to me is that it was Johnny Robertson who instigated the whole issue by allegedly insinuating that Lee’s wife was unfaithful to him but I don’t see you suggesting that Johnny was in the wrong. Do I perhaps detect a bias coming from you?

    As to Lee’s spiritual condition, as I said, I don’t know Lee beyond his commenting on this board. But, I do know this – that none of us have “arrived”. We are all sinners (Rom 3:23), and we are all dependent upon God’s grace (Eph 2:8). And like Paul, I (and Lee) often do the things we don’t want to do, because we still wear these fleshly bodies (Romans 7:14-25).

    Nathan

  234. Any reasonable person who wants to be Christ-like would have to agree that:

    1. Johnny saying that Lee couldn’t be sure his wife was faithful is totally out of line. There are hundreds of better examples he could have used, and it sounds like he used the one that would shock and upset Lee.

    2. Lee saying that he would have settled things physically had the encounter taken place face-to-face is also out of line. Christians are told not to trade reviling for reviling. I would probably feel the same as Lee, but that doesn’t make it right.

    This is where we get totally off track, when we get into personal attacks and stop trying to discuss God’s word.

    Corey

  235. Corey,

    Thanks for your thoughts on this. For the most part, I agree.

    I do want to reiterate my point about Lee’s comment, though. Because he was expressing his feelings, I don’t consider it out of line. A bit raw, but honest. I don’t have a problem with honesty.

    However, it has been successful in getting us off task, and about that, I agree with you.

    Let’s move on, folks.

    Thanks,
    Nathan

  236. Once again may I express that my greatest difficulty with Johnny, Norm and James (J-N-J) is their passion and method to prove that others who disagree with their view is wrong.

    Do they (J-N-J) really beleive that their method of “attack and burn” in regards to those who disagree with their teaching is the best way to present the Gospel of Christ to the unsaved? Would it not be more effective to use that precious air time to simply present the truth of Christ without vicious verbal attacks on persons and churches? Are they more concerned with proving their views as right or with presenting the the good news of God’s grace, forgiveness and salvation for mankind?

    In my view J-N-J’s neurotic negative campaign against other churches in place of an Obsessive drive to present God’s plan of salvation is simply counterproductive to bringing about God’s Kingdom.

  237. I dont know what point you think you know I’m scoring. I’m not trying to score points with you.

    If you want to move on, fair enough. I was simply responding to Lee.

    Joey

  238. Rick-I completely agree-that is where I see the problem. I can only imagine if they took the time, money, energy, and passion into proving everyone else WRONG and poured that into spreading the Good News of the love, mercy, grace, and the precious gift of salvation-what greatness could happen for the kingdom of God!!! That is what those in a post-Christian society need to hear and see-not the pointing of fingers or condemning of people, but the love of Christ and the unity He prayed for.

  239. joseph,
    im not looking for any help,excuse or any other justification for the way i would handle the
    situation in question. ill say once again god will judge me. the point of the whole posting was that johnny will say anything to incite you. he is not at all interested
    in an adult conversation concerning the word of god,
    just in trying to provoke people like a school yard bully.
    do you really see jesus standing right beside johnny
    and whispering in his ear “good one johnny, i really liked that one about his wife”
    now before you try and point this back at me remember i dont go looking for a fight but their group does
    and then cries out” oh woe is me i was only doing the will of god, and look how these so called christians treat us.” to any of the reasonable people out there
    quit candy coating these guys. they despise you and what you belive{im screaming this btw}
    and no, jesus isnt saying anything of the kind to him.
    well how do you know?
    because he is the same one who tells me not to help the guy with his problem.
    amen
    lee

  240. Im in “their group” and I’m not trying to pick a fight with you. I have been respectful to you.

    Joey

  241. joseph,
    let me see………….
    respectful huh?
    im a hypocrite , physicaly minded , threatened to track
    someone down…………..
    sorry dont see it.
    but if you lump yourself with johnnys group thats on you
    i wasnt refering to you. believe me im trying to work
    out my own salvation with fear and trembeling.
    still it seems you wont address johnnys tactics.
    if you and i have any common ground i would talk about those things and where we disagree thats fine too.
    it is impossible to have a group of people in complete
    agreement. and thats what i told him.
    i grew up in the pentacostal church and have served god most of my life. continuing to study the bible i
    have yet to find this conspiricy to decieve me in
    a false teaching. surly god wasnt waiting on johnny to show us the error of our faith.
    not mad at you either.
    lee

  242. Joey, if youre in their group, you tell us where Jason is and why he left? If you are Joey N. then you are well aware of what all took place. How you can remain there is beyond my understanding. Thank goodness Jason wised up and left !

  243. The above is exactly why I dont get on this site and comment
    this is all “hear say” none of you know what was said with the exception that Lee has told you his own heart’s desire regarding what would happen if we had been in person.
    you dont even know what was really said
    this dark alley website where any person can get on and make statements that cannot be checked is not Light
    thank you Joey for showing these guys for what they are
    let Lee call in during show time
    I wish i had taped the after show call
    good bye weak children who can’t take it out in the open!

  244. I find it very intersresting that Johnny has come on board at all – many people are emailing behind the scenes too. Please do tell all Johnny and tell what happened to Jason? You was asked on a previous show about Jason and you made it come accross like you didnt know, which Joey and others know to be flat out lie.

  245. Sorry JP – but I needed to edit this comment. Remember, we need to be civil. Your response was understandable, but nevertheless…

    Thanks,
    Nathan

  246. Johnny,

    Please note my use of the word “alleged” in the posts above in reference to Lee’s comments about the conversation he says he had with you. That means that Lee alleges that you said the things you said, but it is not proven. And in this case, unless he (or you) had recorded the conversation, it would not be provable. This isn’t a newspaper – it’s a blog.

    If the conversation was different than Lee’s report, you are welcome to tell the community what really happened. If Lee’s report was accurate, I think we would all be interested to know what you meant if you really did say something about Lee’s wife being unfaithful.

    It’s your opportunity to bring it out into the open.

    Meanwhile, let’s not attack Mr. Robertson. I’ll be editing any comments that are not civil.

    Nathan

  247. Ok here goes… I think I can …I think I can…
    no I just cant
    Can’t what?
    Be unlike Jesus!
    In 1Pet 2:23 I find that I really don’t need to spend time with personal attacks
    Jesus church under attack is much too important. I think I will stick with His charge to me Jude 3 and let you all continue to sling mud on me
    I really do trust that God will work that out
    Oh and Lee you can talk about me, my children my wife my mother (all been done before see last weeks program star 39) Im not mad , no fighting here just defending the Lord and his word against all false religions (not in the Bible type)
    and Randy rather than satisfy you with “juicy” on Jason, we keep that to ourselves lest something said cause him to feel like we have bad feelings toward him. I miss him and could use his help with my 70-100 hour schedule. He really knew how to expose denominationalism
    got go we are going to expose Danville Bee and register for bias and try to help keep Applebees out of Madison. Tent time you know
    By the way thanks for all the great help. If my supporters didnt know how busy I was and the good job shaking things up (turn upside down Ac 17:6) we were doing… they know it now.
    that is really all I want you know. Every one who supports me knows that too. I just want them to know I love the Lord & the Lord’s church and I want to spend and be spent for it 2Cor 12:15
    I may have time to come back around oh… Sept depending on if we have a little time after the tent
    keep up the good wor
    and Rick I think I will come over and see ya
    we had you scheduled back in 05 to come over and address the congregation so we could ask you a few questions in person… did you forget to mention that?
    deacons were afraid you might mess up as I remember? I will check with Mark on that

  248. That was a nice speech, Johnny, and while I’m not really sure what all you were trying to say, I appreciate you coming here and saying it. By the way, you wrote:

    “Oh and Lee you can talk about me, my children my wife my mother…”

    But point of clarification – Lee didn’t mention your family, he alleges that you mentioned his. Don’t want that point to get lost in this.

    Meanwhile, if you aren’t off yet to tilt your windmills, I’d really enjoy hearing your response to Lee’s allegations.

    Nathan

  249. Ok one last for you nathan
    I am trying to keep you out of hooters by keeping alcohol out madison… so please let me get on to the real work with REAL people
    besides all this attention to little ole me is a bit toooo much for my ego
    yall could have kept this on Norm… we want EVERYONE in Danville to know about him because he preaches the true church (one in the Bible you know)

  250. Did I shut things down ????? I better print screen so i can show this on TV before they remove my post

  251. Ps 86:17 Shew me a token for good; that they which hate me may see it, and be ashamed: because thou, LORD, hast holpen me, and comforted me.

    Thank you for that nathan
    did i get screen printed or did I not
    wait till Sunday bud

  252. and by the way all I have to do is go over on Randys blog and repost what you wouldnt let on
    it won’t bother him to know that about you

  253. if you are reading this post ask nathan what took place between him and me from 11:30-11:50 that he would not post

  254. Don’t get too giddy, Johnny. You tried putting those three comments in under the name “Johnny”, which was a new login for you. The blog automatically needs approval for new logins. I wasn’t even on my computer for the last half hour. When I got back on and saw your comments, I approved them.

    What’s your point?

    Nathan

  255. Johnny,

    Since I seem to have your attention here at our little blog, let me ask you a very sincere question that I’ve been itching to ask you for some time.

    I understand that you don’t consider people outside the Churches of Christ to be saved. You would probably say that people in the Baptist churches, Lutheran churches, Anglican churches, Presbyterian churches, Methodist churches, are not truly Christians. Or, to put it another way, that we are all lost.

    That being the case – if you consider us to be lost, then why do you spend so much time arguing and debating? I agree that there are times where an argument or a debate are necessary, but (and this was my point in that Hooters debate) Jesus didn’t come condemning the lost, but loving and ministering to the lost (Matthew 9:10-13; Luke 19:10, etc).

    Now, I have have been told that you can be kind and generous. If that’s true, why don’t you show that to people instead of the side that fights against “the lost” all the time?

    Nathan

  256. how about lets discuss it on TV sunday so everyone can get some good from it
    only reason I came back to the blog was to see if you had come back from Hooters yet
    I really thought your wife (can say wife? Lee?) may have gotten on to you for pretending to study in a bar
    Ok little children (is that scriptural ? Matt 11:16) girls ? giddy giggle ? oh never mind no one is consistent over here
    bye see ya sunday nite night nite I like nite (never mind Randy mis-spells too)

  257. Johnny,

    Let me ask you my last question again, because it seems that you might not have read it.

    “Now, I have have been told that you can be kind and generous. If that’s true, why don’t you show that to people instead of the side that fights against “the lost” all the time?”

    Nathan

  258. Johnny you are a little to high and mighty for your own good.

    I “hear” nothing come out of your mouth that even remotely reflects the message of Christ. Good job, you’ve that pharisee role down pat.

    And for the record. My father, Rick, was never told that he would “mess up” in a debate with you. Perhaps you should check your sources before spreading rumors and lies.

  259. nathan,
    the truth must hurt.notice he didnt deny that he made the comment. seems hes not quite as careful and calculated off the air. also i talked to him on the air several weeks ago when he was attacking a particular pentacostal church and told him he didnt seem to think the holy spirit was on the same level as the father and jesus. i belive he said the holy spirit shouldnt be worshiped to which i told him that jesus himself gave special reverence to him luke 12:10 he couldnt answer my reply. i know thats on tape and btw call jc smith about what johnny said concerning brian edwards. how he took every opertunity to make a fool out of him. he denied it when i asked him on air about it. we both heard him…… and jc was sitting beside him in the studio but im sure we wouldnt qualify as a credible witnesses.
    and btw “see ya sunday nite night nite i like nite”…………you shouldnt be calling anyone a girl
    amen
    lee

  260. My goodness what interesting things have been going on in here in the past day.

    Appears that I have struck a nerve with Johnny.

    Johnny..here is something for you to post on your Sunday evening broadcast… You and your brand of deceit are not welcomed at Vandola Baptist Church. Let me put that more plainly, If you show up with your hidden microphones and cameras you will be escorted off the property. Not a threat.. a promise.

  261. From Katie: And for the record. My father, Rick, was never told that he would “mess up” in a debate with you. Perhaps you should check your sources before spreading rumors and lies.

    From Randy: Johnny may be trying to make statements like these to get a debate with Rick. Don’t fall for it and dont waste your time debing these men, you cant win against them, because they know how to twist everything around that you say and then after the debate you would be played over and over on TV.

  262. I agree Randy
    They twist everything (in particular I see that Johnny twists everything)
    and you’re right… no sense in debating such nonsense

    To the people of the CofC who treat others with respect and who approach this discussion from a positive and Christ-like POV, I say “thank you”. I’m sorry that people like Johnny Robertson seem to have made it their life’s ambition to make the CofC out to be something that is more certainly not.

  263. Nathan,

    Your blog, your rules. I will abide. I simply told Johnny to go somewhere else and teach, what I believe to be, heresy. If that was not civil, what else is Johnny? I see his comments still posted where he was being smug, acting like a jerk, calling us “weak children” If anything needs to be deleted, its his computer access. period.

  264. It occurs to me that Johnny may be wanting for me to ban his computer access – that perhaps he and “he who shall remain nameless” may have even decided that they would harass me to see if JR could get banned. To what ends? I don’t know.

    Johnny’s comments about Hooters have to do with a discussion I participated in on another blog, where the host of that blog was talking about a church that had a Bible study going on at a Hooters in Atlanta. I defended that church, with my argument being that Jesus came to seek and save the lost, and where would you go to find the lost if not at a place like Hooters?

    Now Johnny appears to think that he has found the “smoking gun” with me, but I stand by my arguments on that blog. You can find that discussion here:

    http://reformationnation.wordpress.com/2008/01/04/hot-wings-and-church-at-hooters/#comment-1724

    Personally, I think this is simply another CofC diversionary tactic. But if it gets JR to finally mention this blog on his program, I’ll welcome the free advertisement.

    Nathan

  265. still no answer.
    and as for this “kind and generous”……….. is anyone listening?
    he dosent want any of us in denominations as brothers or sisters and until you all aproach him with that understanding, you will find yourself at a decided disadvantage.
    but thats his M.O., find a supposed smoking gun and then
    like Entertainment Tonight, show it over ad nauseum to the audience. ill ask again, is jesus saying at the end of each show. good job johnny? not the jesus i read about in the bible.
    amen
    lee

  266. Randy,

    Yes, this is Joey N. I’m honestly glad that you remembered me. I have not responded the past 2 days as I have been sick. So I am not avoiding you if perhaps you were wondering.

    About Jason: Randy, I’m not in the business of talking about Jason in the presence of someone who is not a member behind his (Jason’s) back. I was very close with Jason and miss him very much. Take that as you will. If you believe that we are ‘covering up’ Jason’s situation, then I’ll just have swallow that and not let it get to me.

    You can persist in saying that we are lying and averting; That’s your perrogative and this is a free country. But if/when Jason comes back, will you concede that we were working in the background to accomplish something great without telling you? Or will you invent yet another scenario to somehow illustrate that we are cold and calous.

    You know nothing of the relationships between the brethren other than the handful of times you visited.

    To quote you Randy:

    “If you are Joey N. then you are well aware of what all took place”

    Yes I am. You aren’t. So stop pretending that you are.

    Joey

  267. Joey, I know quite well about Jason, and I know more about Jason than you even have a clue. I know what all went on with you guys there at Martinsvile cofC and so do you. Has Gene and all the others returned yet? Has Jsaon? Oh, he is headed to another job and another place, did you know that? Did Johnny, Norm, and James follow the given example in the bible and try to restore Jason to the faith – NOPE ! ( gues they sinned per their “speak where the bible speaks”. I feel bad for Jason, and I know he wishes you would wake up from your sleep that Johnny has you under and come out of the church that is causng nothing but conflict. Yes, I visted you guys a “hand full of times” try around 20 plus, and that’s all it took for me to see how under bondage you guys are, you guys look to be the saddest bunch of people I have ever seen – no emotion at all, very sad like, and I feel bad for you. Jason’s very words to me was “he felt like he had escaped from something” when he left Johnny. I know much more, but will keep them conversations between me and Jason. I hope and pray that you and others wake up.

    Did you know that the church of Christ is more split than the so called “denominations” you so often condemn? Why dont you study on this some and then pretend you guys have it all fiqured out – I guess you guys are the only true church and the other church of Christ people in Collinsville, Oak Level, and countless others areound here are lost. I guess since Johnny was fired from Collinsville cofC that the cofC in Collinsville now is lost, seeing he-Johnny isnt there over them. I know you are smart enough to see thru the crap that you are being fed…maybe not….very sad, and reminds me of the power Jim Jones had over his people.

    BTW, Jason is well aware that I discuss him on my blog and this one too – I talked to him about this already. He isnt coming back EVER, he knows what you guys promote isnt right…well enough about that…take care Joey

  268. “good bye weak children who cannot take it out in the open”

    “so please let me get on to the real work with REAL people”

    “I really thought your wife (can say wife? Lee?) may have gotten on to you for pretending to study in a bar
    Ok little children (is that scriptural ? Matt 11:16) girls ? giddy giggle ? oh never mind no one is consistent over here”

    These and all of the other comments that Johnny has come over here to contribute show his immature and un-Christianlike attitude. I am with you, Katie-I don’t see any essence of Christ coming from Him, yet he actually thinks that he is being like Christ?

    Johnny, we are smart people and we can see you for who you are. What are you doing in those 70-100 hours per week? Debating, arguing, fighting, condemning? Man, if you could only take all of that time and money and actually tell people about the Good News of Christ and His amazing gifts of love, grace, mercy, and salvation-people will actually have the chance to learn about Christ, you would probably have nothing to hide and people would not be having these discussions about you. As it is, you have not shown any of your fruits to be of God and what you are doing is only bringing shame to His name and church-definitely not glory. I pray that God will change your heart someday, and your loyalties will be in Jesus and not in your human institution.

  269. I’m sorry Johnny… I missed your little program last night on Star 39 but apparently I was the source of some of your ranting and raving.

    Did you have something you needed to say to me?
    Be a man and talk to me directly. I don’t waste my time by watching your pointless program. Norm Fields is as far-stretching as I go watching that foolishness.

  270. Randy,

    “Joey, I know quite well about Jason, and I know more about Jason than you even have a clue.”

    – Having one side of a story doesn’t make you in the know. Not even our justice system operates that way; why do you?

    “I know what all went on with you guys there at Martinsvile cofC and so do you. Has Gene and all the others returned yet? Has Jsaon?”

    – You’re not gonna tuant me into saying something bad about bretheren

    “you guys look to be the saddest bunch of people I have ever seen no emotion at all, very sad like, and I feel bad for you”

    – You feel better now? I’m perfectly happy there and all of my family is as well.

    Joey

  271. joseph,
    i wrote one of the last posts to you.
    talk to me.
    did you notice how johnny did exactly like i said
    he would last night? he complained about how everyone is attacking him yet he completly ommited his own comments he has written.
    what do you think?
    lee

  272. From Joey: “Having one side of a story doesn’t make you in the know. Not even our justice system operates that way; why do you?”

    From Randy: I guess hiding the facts is TRUTH. You know I am not even telling everything that happened there – I am holding much of it back – sort of like you are doing

    From Joey: You’re not gonna tuant me into saying something bad about bretheren.

    From Randy: You have really been around Johnny too much, you sound like him. BTW,this is exactly what Johnny does – he taunts people in hopes to get info and debate, and you know it…

    From Joey: You feel better now? I’m perfectly happy there and all of my family is as well.

    Feel better, dont take things to the heart Joey. Does Johnny and crew feel better when they attack people and other churches. You guys are so brainwashed its unreal. You want to know how I feel, I feel sad for you Joey and I feel sad for the folks under the leadership of Jim Jones of Martinsville-Johnny. He feeded off of this stuff like a kid for a toy. He loves a little fight and loves to keep things stirred up…he would be most miserable if he just had to preach and teach. You know just as Jason knows and others that he loves this stuff, so I dont mind feeding him the food he desires. Eat up Johnny, its feeding time.

  273. Here is my last post for you guys
    Lee wants to fight
    Randy wants a drink
    Kattie and kathline are so awesomely cut from the same cloth
    and Rick and Nathan …that makes what 6 on this blog
    Now you may say, “Johnny you are wrong , you don’t know us and you shouldnt say all that!”
    Ok little children Matt 11:16
    Jesus said on several occasions that if you want to follow him (really be like him) sell all you have and follow him (Mat 8 fox have holes birds nest)
    the reason the folks that meet at 823 Starling cannot be bothered by all this child play is they have seen me do this . I moved here with a rocking chair (from the Marshall Islands)and stayed 5 years and sold all i had again and went to the “slum of slums” (Ebeye atoll) and left all the TV and “Lime Light” so I could reach out to the most untouchables in the world. Most likely I will go back after I have trained some men to keep up the “good fight” against all you false teachers.
    Now you see how pointless it is for you all to think you will sway folks in the Martinsville congregation. What do you have as fruit?
    They dont even know who you are and that is how Satan works (Eph 5:12)
    They know me and so do countless others.
    People in sound churches who support me know that I had a thriving business before I gave it all up and decided to be trained to answer all the false religions. Oh and and yes thanks to false churches they know I was in jail too. Boy that hurt you all
    more than me, bringing up a saved persons past. That was really telling to anyone thinking of becoming a Baptist Kattie

    And one last thing I have a son who is named Caleb! What do you suppose Caleb was famous for “little children (all six of you)? A SPY!
    I am so thankful my position does not so destroy reason that I end up failing to appreciate two great characters in the Bible TWO SPIES
    When you dont have anything to hide spies are not really hurting you now are they.
    Rahab got into the line of Christ by helping spies who were determined to overthrow the enemy
    You all are enemies of the true church of Christ (Philp 3:18) and when you can finally find someone convicted enough to come out of the dark and meet us as other Baptist have tried to do (AC Smith B Edwards Shirley Phelps Johnny Bullins K Johnson D Parker) we will speak again, until then Happy fighting Rick and Lee. Pentecostals and baptis have never gotten along ya know all that jibberish you call tongues huh Rick… Be a man Rick Help your daddy Kattie
    Dont bother responding ya’ll Im not coming back it is toooo dark in here for me
    johnny (aka Jim Jones)

  274. Johnny,

    I know you said don’t bother to respond, but since you aren’t my preacher, I’m not under your authority.

    First, let me say that you win the award for “The Strangest Post Ever Posted On This Blog” for that last one.

    Second, the blog’s post count for Wednesday, April 30 was 506 people clicking in. That’s a few more than six. I think probably some of your Starling Avenue brethren must be sneaking peeks here, JR. And they are more than welcome. They can even contribute anonymously if they’d like to defend your doctrine, since you’ve decided to leave.

    Third, my experience with hypercon Church of Christ people online is that if I wrote an comment like the one you just wrote, I’d be labeled a coward. In fact, just this week a hypercon Church of Christ pastor called me a coward because I commented that I was done with the fruitless discussions we’d been having for the past several months on another site.

    John Robertson, I will not call you a coward. I will not belittle your decision to stay off the blog. If you have better things to do, then so be it. You’ve never actually participated in a discussion here – just lobbed a few comment grenades and closed the door – but that’s your call.

    Fourth, we are the enemies of no man, and the enemies of no church. We are just a place to discuss teaching and doctrine, which the last time I checked, you were supposedly supportive of. At least that’s what you say on your broadcasts. Why is this blog exempt?

    Last, you need to know that this blog isn’t going anywhere. Tomorrow we’ll still be here discussing the doctrine hypercons like you, Norm, and James espouse, and if you put more on-air guys on the air, we’ll be discussing their teachings as well. Comparing it to Scripture – offering people a place to discuss away from your editorial control – helping people outside the hypercon Church of Christ know how to respond to the arguments thrown at them by folks like yourself.

    Thanks,
    Nathan (aka Nathan)

  275. Nathan, and all else reading this discussion…

    I asked you once why you called the blog “Answering Church of Christ,” and if you ever considered changing it. I was satisfied with your answer…and now I really understand where you are coming from. To think that Johnny represents the churches of Christ is an appalling thought to me, as a church of Christ preacher. I am ashamed that my brother would make such comments.

    Let me just say that, although we may disagree on some points, even some very important points, you are definitely not my enemies. It is that kind of antagonistic attitude that has given Christianity a bad name. Please do not consider Johnny and men like him as representatives of the churches of Christ in general.

    Clint

  276. Johnny’s statements remind me of the Pharisee and the Publican. The Pharisee boasted to God about all the good he had done while the Publican was humble. It is great that Johnny forsook the comforts of the world, but to boast of what he has done is wrong.

    Does he seek to impress men with the good he has done? If so, Jesus said that he already has his reward – the praise of men (Matt 6:5). In the same chapter Jesus said not to let your left hand know what your right has done.

    Like Clint, I must say that Johnny’s attitude can’t be counted as representative of the churches of Christ. At the same time, neither can the bloggers who claim to be members of the church of Christ who go to the opposite extreme (whose writings are often posted here). There is a middle ground that we must strive for where the truth is spoken in love (Eph 4:15).

    While I can’t denounce Johnny’s teachings I do denounce the manner in which it is presented.

    Corey

  277. Wow, and Johnny wants to call us little children…
    I am glad that Corey and Clint can see what he is doing-and thankful that even though you do not agree with all that is said here, there is still respect and that we can see our common bond in Christ. Whatever Johnny thinks he is doing is just absurd and sad to some extent. We see who you are, too-Johnny-unfortunately for you. It just proved to me again that your goal really is to fight, fight, fight-not to spread the Good News of Christ. Johnny, I am sincerely praying for you and that you will put down your arrogance and trade it for the pure love, joy, and grace of Christ.

    Corey, I am not sure if you are referring to me as one of those that “goes to the opposite extreme”. If not, sorry for speaking out of turn. If so, let me say this: I am not trying to lean to the right or to the left of anything-I am only trying to follow God and His will, and if that does not fall in line with typical “Church of Christ” doctrine-I will always follow what God has said over what man has said. I do try to speak the truth in love, and will always try to follow Him faithfully.

    By the way, Johnny it is Katherine, not Kathline 😉

  278. Katherine,

    I wasn’t really talking about you. Rather I was talking about the articles that Nathan often posts from “non-hyperconservatives” as he likes to call them. Most of those writers have the same message – “lets just leave everyone alone, worry about ourselves, don’t expose any error, everyone who claims to be a Christian must be accepted as such”. Certainly I’m over-generalizing, but many of the articles are written by people who espouse one or more of the messages I just wrote.

    Generally when Nathan posts about a “good Church of Christ” blog the person is very “liberal” in their viewpoint of what Christianity is and what the Bible says. Not every time, but often.

  279. Johnny, I hope you do come back here to read because you really are mentally ill. Its apparent from your writings and your actions. I’m not joking or trying to insult you on this. Please seek out some good counseling.

  280. whaaaaa! thats supposed to be a baby, i havnt heard that much crying in a while.dont go away mad john just go away.dont hate me because i tell you the truth.
    and the truth is no one cares that you disagree with them but because you arent making any headway you lob insults. that ok with me because apparently i like to fight. and you did say that jesus rebuked matthew right?
    well ill take a good rebuke from jesus any day at least
    i do hear him speak to me. i aint mad at ya john
    amen
    lee

  281. Remember folks – let’s keep it civil. After Mr. Robertson’s last posting, I understand the desire to blow off some steam, but I’d encourage everyone to take the high road in response.

  282. This post of Johnny’s is exactly the reason that J-N-J (Johhny-Norm-James)and crew recieves the sort of “welcoming” that they do at area churches. As I expressed in my very first post here, J-N-J’s very obvious disdain for other Christians (and I might add that their disposition towards others are well known in advance of any of their visits) it is the very reason that other church groups do not want them on their property. This is the air that they come with. They were the ones who iniated this approach to others in the area. And now you see that Johnny has gleefully announced their spy tactics in dealing with others. They came with a spirit of disdain the moment they hit the ground in this area and now they complain about how they are received? Remarkable.

    What a revelation of attitude.

  283. Below is my editorial comment that was published in the Danville Register & Bee back in June of 2006 in response to an interview with Johnny Robertson that the R&B published that same month.

    The information below concerning the churches of Christ were drawn from the website: http://www.church-of-christ.org in June 2006 and the information concerning Southern Baptist Churches were drawn from http://www.SBC.net

    “I read with interest the recent interview with Johnny Robertson in the Danville Register and Bee. I felt that the interview didn’t go quite far enough, for there is more information that you should know about the church of Christ or I should say churches of Christ because there are more than just one. Mr. Robertson, himself mentioned that fact.
    So for fun, let us stretch out this interview by comparing the churches of Christ with the Baptist Denomination.

    The churches of Christ are an autonomous group of churches of more 15,000 individual churches. Membership is heaviest in the southern states of the United States. The churches of Christ hold to the principle of church autonomy

    The Baptist Denomination is an autonomous group of churches of more than 42,000 individual churches. Membership is heaviest in the southern states of the United States. Southern Baptists firmly hold to the principle of church autonomy and self-rule. A Southern Baptist church is about as independent as you can get and still be counted as part of a denomination.

    Congregations in the churches of Christ do cooperate voluntarily in supporting the orphans and the aged, in preaching the gospel in new fields, and in other similar works. A nationwide radio and television program, known as “The Herald of Truth” is sponsored by the Highland Avenue church in Abilene, Texas. Much of its annual budget is contributed on a free-will basis by other churches of Christ

    The Baptist Denomination cooperate voluntarily in supporting a number of institutions, in preaching the gospel in new fields, and in other similar works. Baptist cooperate together in an annual budget that is contributed on a free-will basis by individual churches.

    The churches of Christ believe the Bible to be divinely inspired, so does the Baptist Denomination. The churches of Christ accept at face value the virgin birth of Jesus Christ, so does the Baptist Denomination. The churches of Christ baptize only by immersion, so does the Baptist Denomination. In the churches of Christ only those who have reached the “age of accountability” are accepted for baptisms, no infant baptisms. So it goes for the Baptist Denomination. In the churches of Christ all prayers are addressed to God and offered through Christ, or in the name of Christ (John 16:23-26). Likewise for the Baptist Denomination.

    I could go on with the comparisons, but let’s not. It seems to me that the churches of Christ are very much like the Baptist Denomination, except that Baptists are not afraid to confess that they are part of a denomination. Thorndike-Barnhart Dictionary definition of a denomination is “a religious group or sect”. The churches of Christ fit every mold and definition of a denomination, they just will not admit openly that they are. Why would they? If they did they would lose a big part of their “bark”. Which by the way confuses me. According to their own web site, the distinctive plea of the church of Christ “is a plea to speak where the Bible speak and to remain silent where the Bible is silent in all matters that pertain to religion“. If the Bible is silent in regards to “denominations” (and it is) then why is Mr. Robertson, who himself is a product of a denominational Church of Christ school, being so loud and boisterous in tearing down denominations? Is he not by spending so much time talking about denominations contradicting his own church’s plea of speaking about only what the Bible speaks about?

    In conclusion “Why belong to a denomination? Well, denominations give churches a way to collectively express their convictions and realize their vision. In such a free land as ours, it is natural that churches would take the opportunity to identify with like-minded churches. Denominations allow churches to be a part of a larger enterprise, pooling their resources to establish and advance Great Commission work. A denomination can have an impact larger than the sum of the impacts of the individual churches. The Bible pictures financial and operational cooperation among New Testament churches, and virtually all churches cooperate with other churches in some fashion or other. Southern Baptists have merely formalized that spiritually-natural phenomenon, and God has blessed their blend of freedom and cooperation.” SBC Convention Website.

  284. Mt 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

    Where are denominations found in the “Will” or New Testament of the LORD? They are not. READ.

    1Co 1:10 ¶ Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

    Mt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
    14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

    I believe a fifth grader can distinguish the difference between “many” and “few” Are you smarter than a fifth grader? Come on folks, use a little common sense.

  285. Wow now sure why JR decided to throw my name in there so many times and in reference to things I never said.

    And for the record it’s Katie.. one T, not 2.

    And I agree Nathan, strangest post ever… very strange, makes me wonder what is really going on with good ol’ JR.

  286. Isn’t it interesting, Rick? Those in the CofC who decide that their main goal in life is to fight against all of the denominations have actually made a worse denomination out of themselves than all those they are accusing and fighting. Now, that is what I call ironic-and very very sad.

    If we could only focus on our common ground in Jesus, and the fact that He is the one who saves, what a much better place this would be 🙂

    Katie, I was wondering the same thing-very strange post. He could at least get our names right! 😉

  287. nathan,
    i think i have been remarkably restrained,but every once in a while you should”just be plain” with folks.
    some dont understand anything else.
    i can be all things to all men,now i might be using that out of context but i believe its applicable.
    and btw john seems mighty sure of himself concerning that “jibberish”. remember jesus gave special reverance to the holy ghost, maybe he should be silient about something he has no knowledge of.
    did jesus whisper in his ear good job yet?
    no…..just being plain.
    lee

  288. Baptist Rick:
    Would you escort everyone off the property that ask a question about the doctrine you teach, and are you going to install metal detectors to make sure no recorders are brought in? That really sounds like something a cult might do. Why not go on the T.V. program with Norm or Johnny and give an answer to the whole community, It seems if you believe that you are teaching the truth and the C.o.C. are willing to pay for the air time it would be benificial for all, not to mention the scriptural thing to do…..1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

  289. T.D.

    Yes, everyone should have an answer for the hope that we have-and Rick has revealed that on here. The reason why most intelligent people would not choose to engage Norm or Johnny on their TV shows is because they manipulate and twist everything, and are incredibly deceitful. I cannot believe that ANY Christian could ever support such unChrist-like behavior or even try to justify it.

    It is one thing to ask questions when you are truly seeking answers-it is another thing to do what these men do-and go to the various churches and invite people on their TV show to rip them to shreds. They already “know” what they believe-they just want to knock them down, and attempt to make themselves look better. It is nothing but arrogance and pride, not a desire to share the message of Christ with people. It is the opposite of Jesus’ prayer for unity, and it only brings more division to the kingdom of God. That IN NO WAY is what Christ has called us to, and as a follower of Christ-I can in now way condone it.

  290. Katherine,

    So you are saying these guys are so good that they can manipulate and twist things, so that’s why no preacher anywhere will go on there and give their view points to let them know what they are teaching may be misleading. I think that is far from the truth. I have watched Norms program and a gentlemen called in and he read passages from the bible and then explained what that passage meant, and he is not even a preacher; even Norm appreciated him calling in and challenging his views.

    This is about learning and questioning what you are being taught; When you discuss the bible with another person, and don’t agree, there is no anger here, we can discuss the bible, with out being angry or rude to one another. Seems that when you can’t come back with a valid response or answer, you are left to ponder what you have been told, and that may be too much for some people. I think it is scary if a preacher does not go on the program and intelligently express what they teach and let people know I can stand up for what i am teaching which is the word, and tell you why I disagree with these men.

  291. Baptist Rick:

    I noticed one of your statements was that Mark was once a member of vandola and now he is not welcome back, does this mean you believe he is lost?

  292. looks like T.D. has brought up another hot topic. ( Eternal Security )

  293. T.D… Mark was baptized at Vandola in May of 1977 and to my knowledge he has not requested to have his name removed from our membership list.

    Please point out to me the the month and day that I posted on this site a comment that said Mark was not welcomed at our church…I don’t believe you will find me saying on any post here that Mark was no longer welcomed at Vandola. As a matter of fact, every time I see Mark I speak to him and ask him about his family and wish him well.

    And yes, if Mark or Johnny or Norm or James or any of their represenatives returns to our church with the intent to promote their disdain of our worship and practices as well as to promote their teachings by pretending to be sincerely seeking answers to questions about Baptist faith, practice and teachings, yes they will be asked to leave.

    Why do I say that? Because they have publicly via public television broadcasts proclaimed their dislike of, distaste for, and contempt for (there’s that word again Norm) our church. Their reputation for a lack of sincerity in regards to our fellowship proceeds them. And according to Johnny, based upon his remarks in regards to Jesus’ actions and attitudes towards the Pharisees, we are not obligated to show them any form of favorably reception.

  294. PS.. If Mark was sincere in his repentance of sin, confession of Christ as Lord and Saviour, belief of Christ as the Son of God who died for His sins was buried and arose from the grave I indeed would not say he was lost. But only God know Mark’s heart and only God can be the final judge of Mark’s salvation.

  295. Baptist Rick;

    Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

    Where is the baptist church,or any other manmade church mentioned in the word of faith: Ro 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

    Are ye unworthy to judge the smallest of matters?

  296. My dad has heard the Word of God and received thank you very much T.D…. you will have the privilege of standing next to Rick in Heaven one day, regardless of whether you think he is “saved” or not. And I think you may be a tad disappointed when you look around yourself and find that Heaven is full of Baptists (oh wow, gasp), and Methodists (oh no not them), even Pentecostals (oh tell me it ain’t so)… notice the sarcasm in parantheses. Your condemnation is annoying and very unwelcome.

  297. Katherine said:”Well, I am a member of the “Church of Christ”-born and raised in it, but recognize the larger body of Christ and know that I am not a part of the “one true church”. ”

    Thank you for that admission. I think it sad though admitting your lost and defending it

  298. Katie I saw where where you told folks folks to go toward salvation. “Unto” too bad you won’t tell them how to get “into Christ”. How do you get around this verse?

    1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

    You did identify yourself as a pastor , correct?

  299. Rick , I think your term ” our church ” is the root of the problem you’re having. It’s supposed to be His church. He is the one who shed the blood. He is the one who was worthy. As long as you preach a plan for salvation that is not found in the bible you can expect us to oppose that .

  300. I do not identify myself as a pastor. However I DO work in youth ministry and I DO share the message of salvation as per the Great Commission. Thanks for your further condemnation and proof to me that people like yourself and JR are so far from the real cause of Christ that it is ridiculous.

  301. Faithful said:

    “Thank you for that admission. I think it sad though admitting your lost and defending it.”

    What? Do you ever open your eyes or listen? I am not lost-I am saved by the blood of Jesus Christ. The only thing I admitted (because it is TRUE) is that the institutional “Church of Christ” that I was raised in is NOT THE ONE TRUE CHURCH-nor will it ever be-NO MATTER how bad you want it to be!!! The CHURCH is made up of God’s people, His body-who are scattered all over the world. God is the one who saves, He is the ONE who adds those to His body. Why do people have such a hard time comprehending this??!! I stand by what I have said before-it would change so much of your agenda, which is probably why people like you, Johnny, and friends do not WANT to see it and will not allow yourself to see the truth…because then you would actually have to realize and admit that you yourself are in a denomination and have been condemning yourselves all along.

    We should ONLY be preaching the message of Christ-carrying His message of love to the world…

  302. Ha, Katie-I couldn’t help but laugh at your sarcasm. It is a pretty sad state, isn’t it when we alienate our own brothers and sisters IN Christ-when God Himself has not shunned them?

    It is ridiculous what they are doing-I think the most frustrating part to me is not the doctrine (which I don’t agree with, either) but the arrogance and vindictive nature that it is carried out. It certainly is not who Jesus was or what He called us to, and I hate that they are actually attaching Jesus’ name to it when the message has gotten so far away from him and is only about human, selfish agendas.

  303. I know Katherine and I’m not usually sarcastic like that with people that I don’t know but I am just so tired of the persecution and condemnation. I like you have nothing wrong with their doctrine, I have my disagreements but its the tone of faithful, T.D., JR…. etc. I just feel like we get enough junk like that from the world, why in the world would people who should be on the same team… working for the same cause of Christ… instead spending time cutting down other believers. It seems worthless to me. So I apologize to the entire blog for my sarcasm. I’m irritated obviously.

  304. I know, I understand-I feel the same way. It gets to me a lot sometimes, too-and at times gets the best of me, so you are not alone 😉

    I just think of all we could accomplish if we were really united together for the cause of Christ-my, what a different world this would be!!!

  305. I know and like I said I’ve really been struggling with that thought a lot lately. Not just because of this blog but because it seems everywere you go there are Christians bashing other Christians. We all can be so self-centered when the only way to accomplish anything for the kingdom of God is to be Christ-centered.

  306. Faithful,the Bible teaches us that we are joint heirs with Christ. And if we are joint heirs with Christ then that means that all that Christ has also belongs to those who belong to Him. So in that respect I can proudly claim the assembly that I worship in as “our” church…it’s ours in Christ!

  307. Boy, oh boy. Johnny, Norm and James must be so proud of their little acolytes.

    TD – show me “church of Christ” in the Scripture. Not “churches of Christ” (which we are all a part of) but “church of Christ” as in Martinsville church of Christ. By what authority do you folks call that church by that particular name?

    faithful wrote:

    “Thank you for that admission. I think it sad though admitting your lost and defending it”

    – Katherine admitted no such thing. And there is only room for one on the seat of judgment, and last I checked, the Lord had not surrendered his spot to you.

    It’s “you’re” by the way – as in “you are”. “Your” means possession, as in “your doctrine is limited and full of error.”

    You wrote to Rick:

    “As long as you preach a plan for salvation that is not found in the bible you can expect us to oppose that.”

    Would you care to be more exact in this accusation? What plan of salvation not found in Scripture does Rick preach? I’d like something to back it up, not generalizations and stereotypes.

    And of course you can provide them, because you aren’t just parroting the Robinson/Oldfield/Fields party line… I know you wouldn’t do that.

    And speaking of accusations, I am sure that Corey would love to have some substantiations for your recent accusations against him.

    Thank you,
    Mr. Answer

  308. I know, I have been struggling through the same thing lately. I especially look around at our society and how post-Christian we are becoming and how people are not looking for “religion”-that is not the answer. The answer is Jesus. They want real answers to real questions-not pat answers that you can tie up in a bow and leave there…sometimes that means we don’t have an answer, but the point is to meet people where they are and walk that journey with them.

    I cannot imagine what they see when they look at Christians and “church”-I know they see a lot of hypocrites and that makes me sad. I just KNOW that the CHURCH is much more than we have made it or what we are allowing ourselves to be. If we would only put down our swords that we use to fight and condemn other Christians, and realize our unity in Christ-where there are NO distinguishing lines, I cannot even imagine what He could accomplish through us.

    There is a lost and dying world out there who needs to know His love, His grace, His mercy and that there is HOPE-and that you don’t have to be perfect to come to Him or know everything. He just asks us to “Come” just as you are, to seek, to ask, to knock-and He is there. I wish that message did not become so muddled down and that the focus has been taken off of an intimate relationship with Him and been placed on religious rituals and actions.

    Ultimately, God is God. We have never really been in control (nor do I want to be), and He will be anyway-but we need to let Him be God!! We need to be the ones who do what He has called us to-love one another as He has loved us-and let Him take care of the rest 🙂

  309. Nathan wrote:

    It’s “you’re” by the way – as in “you are”. “Your” means possession, as in “your doctrine is limited and full of error.”

    Oh, THANK YOU Nathan!! This absolutely drives me CRAZY!! Why do so many people not understand that? I see it all over the place!!

    For that matter, why do we not just write “You are”? It is only one more letter-and all it does is replace “‘” anyway! lol

    …ok, stepping off soapbox now 😉

  310. Actually, I think the absolute correct way to write it would be: “y’all’re”.

    (Incidentally, why does the spell checker show y’all as being misspelled? Darn Northern software geeks…)

  311. Faithful,
    May I ask something about baptism (since we haven’t discussed that at all on here 🙂 ). Is baptism an act of repentance or an act of salvation?

  312. It seems we are just going in circles and dodging the issues. Ok, Rick, no doubt will teach “faith only” and then say one must repent and confess ( because the scriptures say so ) I think where we start going in circles when we get to baptism. Most believe one is saved prior to being baptized, but thats a bit hard to proove when using the scripture as a whole. Paul and Peter both made a connection between forgiveness and baptism as did Jesus ( Mark 16:16 ). I have tried to go around this every way known and there is no way to deny that baptism and forgivenss are connected, but its not a work of merit, its from faith in Christ and his blood….I just dont see why we cant agree upon this when its clearly in the bible. Who cares if Johnny and crew teach this…its not what they teach….its in the bible.

  313. From Rick: Is baptism an act of repentance or an act of salvation?

    From Randy: baptism is an act of faith, just as repenting and confessing are acts of faith, not of works lest we boast. We are saved by grace THROUGH faith…

    Rick, every question you throw at them has already been filed somewhere and they have them in their head too…

  314. could one refuse Johns baptism and be right before God?

    can one refuse baptism today and be right before God? In others words at what point were the people seen as forgiven in Johns day – when they were baptized, same today….and refusal is rejecting the councel of God

  315. Rick wrote:
    May I ask something about baptism (since we haven’t discussed that at all on here 🙂 ). Is baptism an act of repentance or an act of salvation?

    If you don’t mind Rick, I’ll answer this for you. It is neither.

    Repentance is repentance. It is a separate command, different from faith, confession and baptism. Paul said that God now commands all men to repent – to turn from their wicked ways. That just is what it is.

    Nor is baptism an act of salvation. It is unto the forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38). Like confession brings us “unto” salvation (meaning “near”), baptism brings us “unto” the forgiveness of sins (meaning “near”). It is Christ that brings us “into” salvation by His blood. As we are baptized “into” Christ (Gal 3:27), it is there that we contact His blood and receive the forgiveness of sins and salvation.

    Jesus alone provides salvation, but the the commands He left for us allow us access to Christ. It is better stated that baptism is an act of obedience, just like faith, repentance and confession.

  316. Randy I have no problem with the connection of forgiveness and baptism. I just see it this way–A man must repent to be forgiven and if he truly repents he is baptized as Christ commanded. In that respect baptism is part of the act of repentance. I just don’t see it as part of the act of salvation. I am saved because of my repentance not my baptism.

  317. Corey you said “Jesus alone provides salvation, but the the commands He left for us allow us access to Christ. It is better stated that baptism is an act of obedience, just like faith, repentance and confession.”

    You and I are in agreeance (is that a word grammar people?)… 100%. I agree. And I have baptized as an act of obedience. So whats the issue.

  318. Gateway computer – $750

    Internet conection – $20 per month

    quote from female baptist preacher :
    On May 21, 2008 at 9:35 am faithful Said:
    Katherine said:”Well, I am a member of the “Church of Christ”-born and raised in it, but recognize the larger body of Christ and know that I am not a part of the “one true church”. ”

    Priceless.

    Thanks for that Katie. I’m sure the community will love this

  319. First of all faithful.
    Katherine has never claimed to be a baptist preacher, not even a baptist for that fact. That would be me.. I’m the baptist but I have never claimed to be a preacher.

    Second of all, I am Katie… Katherine is not the same person, we are two seperate people. Sort of like how faithful is supposedly a seperate person from Johnny.

    And I hope you DO quote Katherine ALL OVER THE PLACE because her quote is in line with scripture, so please, quote her so that some actual truth is being preached!

  320. No Faithful, the issue is that some people are living by a set of laws and I’m living by grace. I have been baptized. You and no one else on this planet has permission to condemn me to hell based on your interpretation of how I was or was not baptized.

  321. I enjoy discussing things with Randy and Corey and I agree with so many of their points.

    Baptism is act of obedience, of which I have obeyed. Thank you.

  322. “Would you care to be more exact in this accusation? What plan of salvation not found in Scripture does Rick preach? I’d like something to back it up, not generalizations and stereotypes.”

    I don’t read about a sinners prayer in the accounts of salvation. I don’t read faith only in the bible . I don’t read about baptism being a symbol or confession. I don’t read about personal savior. I spent 20 years in the baptist church so don’t think I don’t knwow what they teach.

  323. FAITHFUL: PAY ATTENTIOM!!!

    Katherine and Katie are TWO DIFFERENT PEOPLE!!!

    I said this-KATHERINE, who is not a “female Baptist preacher”…

    On May 21, 2008 at 9:35 am faithful Said:
    Katherine said:”Well, I am a member of the “Church of Christ”-born and raised in it, but recognize the larger body of Christ and know that I am not a part of the “one true church”. ”

    I also elaborated on it-but you seem to have chosen to IGNORE this, like you do many other things. Get your facts straight. Face Corey’s question. Quit pushing your agenda and focus on Christ. Good grief!!! I am so sick of this, and I know God cannot like it!!

  324. “First of all faithful.
    Katherine has never claimed to be a baptist preacher, not even a baptist for that fact. That would be me.. I’m the baptist but I have never claimed to be a preacher.

    Second of all, I am Katie… Katherine is not the same person, we are two seperate people. Sort of like how faithful is supposedly a seperate person from Johnny.

    And I hope you DO quote Katherine ALL OVER THE PLACE because her quote is in line with scripture, so please, quote her so that some actual truth is being preached!”

    Katie I know there is a Katherine that is not a preacher here . I was refering to you . That’s why I said Katie.

  325. And yet again Faithful, I have never said I was a preacher.

    Man if I had a nickel for everytime you made an assumption of accusation…

  326. When a sinner prays for forgiveness and expresses his confession and repentance to God, what would you call it? Would that make it a “sinner’s prayer” as opposed to a “Christian’s prayer”?

  327. I stand corrected it was Katherine who said that. I typed that before I realized it was two people. See I can admit when I’m wrong , too bad you can’t

  328. “Katie I know there is a Katherine that is not a preacher here . I was refering to you . That’s why I said Katie.”

    But you quoted me…and yes by the way-I AM a minister, so is Katie-so are all of us!!

    And, yes-please quote Katie ALL day long and actually READ what she says, because she is speaking TRUTH to you!!!!

  329. Faithful said:

    “See I can admit when I’m wrong , too bad you can’t”

    Riiiiiight. Please-it is one thing to admit you are wrong about names, but another to admit you are wrong on doctrinal matters, OR might not have it all right, OR that you called a brother out without anything to back it up-and only tried to cover it up, OR that you have falsely accused people on here…

  330. Hey Faithful

    I have some verses for you
    “Thou shall not bear false witness against your neighbor” Exodus 20: 16

    or how about this.
    ” And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them”.

    You have a lot of accusations to make about people that you do not know and have names to call people. Perhaps you should read more than the quoted scriptures concerning baptism and read about some of the fruits of the spirit.

    Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,[c] fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders,[d] drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
    22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another- Galatians 5

  331. “Faithful”, let me help you out again…

    Faithful said:

    “Thank you for that admission. I think it sad though admitting your lost and defending it.”

    What? Do you ever open your eyes or listen? I am not lost-I am saved by the blood of Jesus Christ. The only thing I admitted (because it is TRUE) is that the institutional “Church of Christ” that I was raised in is NOT THE ONE TRUE CHURCH-nor will it ever be-NO MATTER how bad you want it to be!!! The CHURCH is made up of God’s people, His body-who are scattered all over the world. God is the one who saves, He is the ONE who adds those to His body. Why do people have such a hard time comprehending this??!! I stand by what I have said before-it would change so much of your agenda, which is probably why people like you, Johnny, and friends do not WANT to see it and will not allow yourself to see the truth…because then you would actually have to realize and admit that you yourself are in a denomination and have been condemning yourselves all along.

    We should ONLY be preaching the message of Christ-carrying His message of love to the world…

  332. faithful,

    While you are on the subject of “admitting when you are wrong”, would you like to address Corey’s issue?

    Do you need us to remind you once more about that issue?

  333. Rick, “ run and jump and you will cross the creek” – does this mean I must run only to cross the creek or must I jump too?

    Rick “ believe and be baptized and you will be saved – does this mean I must believe only to be saved or must I be baptized too?

  334. but what about
    “confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead and you will be saved”

    Randy… I think the problem is that we are really all in agreement here. So continuing the baptism argument accomplishes nothing because at the root of the whole discussion we all agree on one key ingredient… Jesus Christ.

  335. which might I add… that one key ingredient ain’t a bad place to start… know what I mean? In fact I would dare say it’s the only place to start and should be the only place we finish. If we get the argument/discussion to far from that key then we have all misrepresented Him and the message of redemption.

  336. ” On May 21, 2008 at 11:42 am Rick Said:
    When a sinner prays for forgiveness and expresses his confession and repentance to God, what would you call it? Would that make it a “sinner’s prayer” as opposed to a “Christian’s prayer”?”

    I would call it a something that God says he won’t heed.

    Ps 34:15 The eyes of the LORD are upon the righteous, and his ears are open unto their cry.
    16 The face of the LORD is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth.

    Ps 66:18 If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:

    Pr 15:29 ¶ The LORD is far from the wicked: but he heareth the prayer of the righteous.

    Pr 28:9 ¶ He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.

    1Pe 3:12 For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.

    Is prayer a spritual blesing ?

    Eph 1:3 ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
    (KJV)

    Are lost people in Christ? If not then how could they have spiritual bleesings ?

  337. faithful wrote:
    I stand corrected it was Katherine who said that. I typed that before I realized it was two people. See I can admit when I’m wrong , too bad you can’t

    Wow, congratulations on admitting a typing error. Last time I checked, typing errors aren’t sins. Lying about a brother and slandering them are. When do you plan on addressing that? You have little credibility here until you admit your error or back up what you said about me.

    To Rick & Katie –
    You’ve both been baptized in order to be obedient to Christ. I’m glad you both take obedience to Christ seriously. The issue I see with what you are saying about your baptisms is this:

    I know that both of you would say that we must be “in” Christ to have salvation. We all know that. The question becomes – how do I get “into” Christ? There are passages that tell us about our acts of obedience bringing us near to salvation, but there are only two that specifically tell us what puts us into Christ – Romans 6:3 and Galatians 3:27. Both tell us that it is baptism that puts us into Christ.

    If you teach that baptism comes after salvation, and is only an act of obedience, then by the standard of God’s word, you are teaching that you don’t have to be “in” Christ to be saved. I know you wouldn’t want to intentionally teach that salvation can be found outside of Christ, but that is what you’re doing when you neglect the Bible’s teachings on what baptism does for us.

  338. “Lying about a brother and slandering them are.”

    Are you talking about the lies you’ve told on Johnny?

  339. “On May 21, 2008 at 11:55 am Katie Said:
    but what about
    “confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead and you will be saved”

    Randy… I think the problem is that we are really all in agreement here. So continuing the baptism argument accomplishes nothing because at the root of the whole discussion we all agree on one key ingredient… Jesus Christ.”

    Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
    (KJV)

  340. Whatever faithful,
    I have done more than just believe in God, I have received Jesus Christ as my Savior and He is the Lord of my life. I have repented of my sins, been forgiven. I was baptized and have lived my life since then striving daily to draw closer and closer to the Lord.

    So it’s quite the opposite. The devils tremble at the name of God and they better tremble at the thought of having to deal with me because I have been bought with the blood of Jesus Christ and ain’t nothing more powerful than that.

  341. Mr 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

    Baptist version

    He that believeth and is saved shall be baptized.

    Notice it’s reversed

  342. Back to you Corey.

    I completely understand what you are saying.
    I think the assumption is that my father preaches the message of salvation and then throws in baptism as a “bonus”. Which isn’t the case. He teaches them hand in hand. And baptism is truly significant, especially in the Baptist church. So I’m just not sure where it is that we are going so “wrong”… other than that I have just been told we don’t get baptized or baptize for the “right” reasons when I as far as what I have read (even the verses that are commonly quoted on here) I see nothing wrong with our emphasis on baptism.

  343. On May 21, 2008 at 12:10 pm Katherine Said:
    “Once again-AMEN, Katie!! Can we share a pulpit?”

    Yea who cares the bible doesn’t authorize women preachers. Do what you want to do!

  344. In the baptist church you don’t have to get baptized to go to heaven but you do have to get baptized to get into the church .

    So it’s harder to get into the baptist church than heaven

  345. Actually… getting baptized to become a member of the church proves my point that Baptizes view the act of baptism as a SIGNIFICANT part of the salvation process. One being baptizes in front of the congregation is making it publicly known the change that they are making in their lives. It shows a commitment to Christ and to desiring to follow Him with his/her life.

  346. Ha ha, what a force we would be! 😉

    …and faithful, there is NO way I am even going to touch the idea of women’s roles in the Bible with you.

    You have not even shown your credibility on here whatsoever because you will not face your actions or accusations. You have a Biblical call to do so-are you going to continue to ignore it?

  347. No, faithful I am not local-I am in the great state of Texas 😉 I have seen enough on the internet to make me sick-I don’t need that invading my living room.

    Why, are you planning on talking about me?

  348. faithful,

    While you are on the subject of “admitting when you are wrong”, would you like to address Corey’s issue?

    Do you need us to remind you once more about that issue?

  349. “In the baptist church you don’t have to get baptized to go to heaven but you do have to get baptized to get into the church”

    Faithful, How is this different from what the churches of Christ preach-about getting baptized into the church?

  350. I was wondering the same thing Katherine…
    it seems that Faithful’s argument there has put himself into a corner and maybe even made him look similar to a baptist (OH NO NOT THAT)

  351. Well, “faithful”, the list of questions just continues to grow:

    *What false doctrines have I taught?
    *What is my “sinful & rebellious behavior”?
    *What lies have I told on Johnny?

    Patiently waiting,
    Corey

  352. Corey and Randy
    I just want to say to you two directly that I thoroughly appreciate your contributions and I identify with much of your thoughts and views. Believe it or not, I have learned quite a bit from our conversations and I respect you both greatly.

  353. Rick, “ run and jump and you will cross the creek” – does this mean I must run only to cross the creek or must I jump too?

    Rick “ believe and be baptized and you will be saved – does this mean I must believe only to be saved or must I be baptized too?

  354. Randy— daddy (aka Rick) left for the afternoon, he’s off do some work and run errands

    I’m sure he’ll answer your questions when he’s back on later this evening.

  355. Just don’t take me the wrong way Katie, because I don’t mean to come across as harsh or combative…just making some points that need considered.

  356. On May 21, 2008 at 12:16 pm Katie Said:
    “Actually… getting baptized to become a member of the church proves my point that Baptizes view the act of baptism as a SIGNIFICANT part of the salvation process. One being baptizes in front of the congregation is making it publicly known the change that they are making in their lives. It shows a commitment to Christ and to desiring to follow Him with his/her life.”

    We are baptized for the remission of sins and the Lord adds us to His church. You yourself say it’s more of a proclamation or confession which I don’t read about. Why does the baptist church then vote on membership? See the vote adds you to the baptist church , the baptism is just a requirement for the vote to take place

  357. no you’re fine Randy
    I don’t feel that you’re being harsh or combative

    and trust me, if I did feel that way, especially concerning my dad, I’d let you know 🙂

  358. Katherine I’ve shown Cory his statement and he does n’t want to admit it . That’s ok with me. He wants to be the false accuser of Johnny . We know who’s job that is.

  359. good question Faithful
    I’m not a hard core Baptist so I don’t necessarily believe that church membership is necessary

    not sure what kind of response you are seeking from me on that issue, it seems a bit null and void to me when discussing the issue of salvation

  360. the baptism isn’t a requirement for the church to take a place, we view it as an act of obedience in following the model set forth by Christ

    the membership token is not something I see as vital to the salvation discussion

  361. On May 21, 2008 at 12:57 pm Katie Said:
    good question Faithful
    “I’m not a hard core Baptist so I don’t necessarily believe that church membership is necessary

    not sure what kind of response you are seeking from me on that issue, it seems a bit null and void to me when discussing the issue of salvation”

    Do you mean memebership in the baptist church or any church?

  362. Katie, I thought when you called in on the program you said you were a pastor? Are you not the same Katie?

  363. well actually Faithful I never said I was a preacher, Norm actually is the one that called me a preacher and I was very clear in my response that I was not a preacher. I did say that I have felt called to SERVE but never once stated that I was a preacher. And I have that entire conversation on DVD so I’m extremely positive as to what was said and not said.

  364. and as per you question faithful “Do you mean memebership in the baptist church or any church?”

    I DO feel that upon salvation we ALL become part of the BODY OF CHRIST, ie… Christ’s Church

    I do not feel that it is vital that anyone is on the rolls/church books of any physical church building on this planet. The only book I am concerned with is the Book of Life and my name is there so I’m good.

  365. faithful wrote:
    Cory didn’t you refer to the church as a denomination?

    Nope. Keep trying. The Lord’s church is no denomination. If anyone is making the Lord’s church into a denomination it was you when you asked what church I belong to. I had already told you I was a member of the Lord’s church and what I did to obey the gospel. What you wanted to know was what the sign out front says. I told you, but I guess you didn’t like the answer.

    faithful wrote:
    Katherine I’ve shown Cory his statement and he does n’t want to admit it . That’s ok with me. He wants to be the false accuser of Johnny . We know who’s job that is.

    What statement is that? That he behaves like Diotrophes at times? I’ve already explained that. He came here and bragged about his righteousness. He insinuated that a man’s wife may not be faithful to him. Are those the behaviors that we would associate with Christ or a man trying to be the church boss?

  366. Faithful, you are the one that won’t own up to what you said. It is amazing to me that you will continue to alienate Corey-who believes like you. Why? If you cannot even accept him as a brother in Christ, who will you accept? Only those who worship Johnny and all he says? It seems to me you are exalting Johnny and his beliefs over Jesus and what the Bible says…or maybe you are one in the same.

  367. Katherine,
    I think this mis-placed loyalty to Johnny comes about because some people must have all the answers to every question. Johnny puts out there that he has all the answers and that everyone is wrong. Very simple and black and white. This brings people comfort I guess. It doesn’t matter that the answers are just made up by some human who really has no more a direct line to God than we do. But this black and white thinking is something we should outgrow because very few things in this world is black and white.

  368. “On May 21, 2008 at 1:08 pm Katie Said:
    and as per you question faithful “Do you mean memebership in the baptist church or any church?”

    I DO feel that upon salvation we ALL become part of the BODY OF CHRIST, ie… Christ’s Church

    I do not feel that it is vital that anyone is on the rolls/church books of any physical church building on this planet. The only book I am concerned with is the Book of Life and my name is there so I’m good.

    So what about the fact that he adds us to His church?

    And what about this:Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
    24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
    25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

    Here we go again with the building. The roll is not of the building. So you’re saying that we can forsake the assmbly and be ok?

  369. On May 21, 2008 at 1:40 pm Gail Said:
    Katherine,
    “I think this mis-placed loyalty to Johnny comes about because some people must have all the answers to every question. Johnny puts out there that he has all the answers and that everyone is wrong. Very simple and black and white. This brings people comfort I guess. It doesn’t matter that the answers are just made up by some human who really has no more a direct line to God than we do. But this black and white thinking is something we should outgrow because very few things in this world is black and white.

    Or could it be that he has good fruit? Are you aware that he has baptized 4 denominational preachers and established 4 , working on 5 , congregations in the last 8 years. Where is your fruit? What have you done for the church besides try and put down it’s faithful members?

  370. He didn’t add anyone to the baptist church. The baptist church is not in the bible and came along around the year 1600. How could he have put anyine inthe baptist church in the book of acts if it didn’t exist

  371. “On May 21, 2008 at 1:24 pm Katherine Said:
    Faithful, you are the one that won’t own up to what you said. It is amazing to me that you will continue to alienate Corey-who believes like you. Why? If you cannot even accept him as a brother in Christ, who will you accept? Only those who worship Johnny and all he says? It seems to me you are exalting Johnny and his beliefs over Jesus and what the Bible says…or maybe you are one in the same.”

    We don’t worship Johnny. Coey doesn’t believe like me or he wouldn’t be on here saying the things he has against Johnny though. You know Simon fell away almost as soon as he came out of the water. Cory could be no different

  372. Good fruit and Johnny do not mix. Are you aware that we are called to seek and save the lost-not chase after “denominational preachers” who have already found Christ? You are not letting God be God.

    I fear what Johnny is teaching those congregations he has established-because he has his own doctrine and his own followers-who seem to be more faithful and loyal to him than Jesus Christ, and I think it is out of fear.
    I’m sorry, but that is just wrong.

  373. Cory was Johnny bragging or just stating facts about fruit? There is a difference. HAve you ever answered my question about evil surmizings?

  374. “Coey doesn’t believe like me or he wouldn’t be on here saying the things he has against Johnny though. You know Simon fell away almost as soon as he came out of the water. Cory could be no different”

    You just proved to me you are more loyal to Johnny than Jesus. You just can’t see it because you have been misled.

  375. Denominational preachers are lost or they wouldn’t be preaching another gospel for a church not in the messgae. You can try as hard as you want to but you’ll never get them into the message

  376. “You just proved to me you are more loyal to Johnny than Jesus. You just can’t see it because you have been misled.”

    You have been tricked into the baptist church so it doesn’t shock me that you can’t understand what I say. I only follow Johnny as he follows Christ. If he falls away then I won’t follow him. So far I see mech fruit. I see the most honest hard working man I’ve ever met in the church or out. I know Johnny personally , all you’ve seen is few videos. I think I’m in a better position to know what he’s really like than you all

  377. Well, you can try as hard as you want, but God is still the one who saves and will be the one who says who is in and who is out. You are condemning yourself anyway because you have created your own denomination without even realizing it. You are preaching “another message” and Christ is pushed out of the way in the majority of it.

    There you go confusing me and Katie again-I am not in the Baptist church. I am in Christ. I understand what you are saying and it is not from Christ-simple as that. I imagine you are in a better position and know him well since I think you are literally one in the same, and if that is so-that is incredibly deceptive. I can make an honest judgment based on what I have seen, and what I have seen is not fruitful. You can deny it all day long, but ultimately it is God who sees and knows and it is what He thinks that matters. I would not want to be sitting on His throne trying to do His business when He comes to judge-which is exactly what you are doing.

  378. faithful wrote:
    HAve you ever answered my question about evil surmizings?

    You asked that question to Randy, not me. However, I’ve answered every question you’ve thrown at me. I can’t say the same for you.

    faithful wrote:
    Cory was Johnny bragging or just stating facts about fruit?

    He was bragging. He came here and stated all that he had done do show how much better he was than everyone else and all that he’d done for the Lord. If he was telling a group of people who supported his work what he’d done it would be stating facts about fruit. When he says it to a group of people he opposes it becomes bragging. If many here don’t believe his teachings why would they care what good he’d done for God? They wouldn’t, so it is just bragging to exalt himself.

    faithful wrote:
    Coey doesn’t believe like me or he wouldn’t be on here saying the things he has against Johnny though

    First off, my name is spelled c-o-r-e-y. Second, you act like no one can oppose Johnny’s demeanor or tone just because what he said was true. You defend Johnny even when Johnny doesn’t act like Jesus. That contradicts your statement that you only follow Johnny as he follows Christ.

    Have you noticed that I have never said a word against Norm Fields or James Oldfield? It is because they’re able to be firm without having to resort to underhanded tactics like insinuating that a man’s wife is unfaithful. They’ve never come on here and told everyone who opposes them how much good they’re doing. They don’t start raving at person that they need to denounce Benny Hinn before they can ask them questions.

    Your attitude is the reason that so many people call the Lord’s church a cult, and Mr. Robertson a cult leader – because you don’t care how he behaves. You’ll excuse it or overlook it every time.

  379. Katie:
    I cannot condemn anyone, but condemnation comes to those outside the body of Christ.
    Ro 8:1 ¶ There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
    There are two verses that explicitly state how one gets into Christ;Ro 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?-Ga 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
    Also if it be the case that Baptist, Methodist, Pentecostals,etc.etc. etc. will be in heaven, and as you say you can worship God however you feel,then that would make God a liar and a hypocrite and I know God cannot lie nor is he a hypocrite,
    Mt 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
    Mr 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
    Mt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
    Mt 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
    Now I don’t know about you but when I was in school they taught that many was a lot more than few.

    Many ONE
    Baptist church Church of Christ
    Methodist church
    Pentecostal church
    Catholic church
    Jehovahs witness church
    Apostolic church
    Presbyterian church
    Lutheran church
    Episcopalian church
    Mormon church
    Salvation army church
    Seventh day advent church
    and so the list goes on…..

    Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
    5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
    Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
    23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
    Notice: This says “The Church” not “The Churches”

    I sincerely hope this will help you to understand and come to a better knowledge of the trurh.

    Eph 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
    4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

  380. Thats supposed to be:

    Many—————————One

    Baptist church————–Church of Christ
    Methodist church
    Pentecostal church
    Catholic church
    Jehovahs witness church
    Apostolic church
    Presbyterian church
    Luthren church
    Episcopalian church
    Mormon church
    Salvation army church
    Seventh day advent church

    Look at the obituaries sometime at all the different faiths ; ex. so and so was of the Baptist faith, so and so was of the holiness faith, or he was of the catholic faith or she was of the methodist faith.

    Friends the Holy Bible says that faith comes by hearing the word of God in Rom.10:17 and NONE of these are ever mentioned as the ONE FAITH spoken of in Eph.4:5

  381. TD –

    Your first mistake is to assume that your denomination (yes – I said it) stands separate from the others.

    The stubborn insistence of modern hyperconservative churches of Christ that just because they say they are the only ones who have Christianity right, than they are the only ones, is just mistaken and wrong. That’s like me saying each day, “I am the President!” I can say it and say it, but it doesn’t make it so. Frankly, it just makes me look a bit nuts.

    Your second mistake is to pretend that churches of Christ are so unified. How about if take your supposed single “Church of Christ” listed above and show all of the division that has occurred within your ranks since the days of Alexander Campbell?

    Which one would be right? The one that agrees with you, of course.

    The conclusion is – interestingly – that you have denominated yourselves within the church of Christ. That makes the “churches of Christ”, paradoxically, a non-denominational denomination.

    A third mistake you make is lumping all of those groups together. I have demonstrated on this board previously that the Mormon church and the JWs have differences with the others on a fundamental or orthodox level – on what they do and say about Jesus, about God, about the Word – if you are going to make a charge like that it might behoove you to look at the differences and similarities in more than a general manner.

    The fourth mistake is assuming that the 21st century non-denominational denomination known as the “church of Christ” is the 21st century embodiment of the ONE FAITH spoken of in Eph 4:5.

    You see TD, The true “church of Christ” is more than just a name on a sign. And there are authentic and faithful followers of Jesus Christ found in most of the churches you mentioned above. Who they are is not my call – Jesus is the one who will separate the sheep from the goats (Matthew 25:31-46).

  382. You would seem nuts to go around saying “Iam the president” if you were not, and Iam sure the people with common sense could judge,(oops there’s that word) wheather or not you actually were. The same way one can judge between an apple and an orange,or a Christian and a Baptist, Lu 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

  383. 1st Corinthians 8, lays out a principle that it is better to agree with a weaker brother in an area then impose your own rights even when you are right, based on that principle, who is actually following the teachings of Christ?

    If I understand it correctly, if we fail in one area we are guilty of all, so since we all fail in an area, are we all not following the things that the Lord says?

    If that be true is it not his Grace that sustains us? Or is it that someone here thinks they do not sin?

    Corinthians 1:12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.

    So whats more important, being right or following the word?

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