23 Good Questions to Ask a CofC Fundamentalist

Over at http://www.topix.com, at a conversation going on between a few Church of Christ fundamentalists and a few other folks, we had a list of some Very Interesting Questions posted for our Church of Christ friends to answer.  I put them here for your perusal, and invite you to put them on your list of questions to ask your own Church of Christ friends. 

1)  I was baptized at age 10 for the forgiveness of my sins (in a Church of Christ) what sins were I capable of committing at this point in my life? If I died before my baptism would I have gone to Hell?

2)  Where does the age of accountability for proper baptism appear in the Bible? Please provide book, chapter, and verse

3)  Is Matthew 28:19 proper baptismal instructions? Or did Jesus make an incomplete statement?

4)  Would you consider keeping another man as a slave to be sin?(Please keep in mind 1 Timothy 6:1-2, Ephesians 6:5)

5)  Is the apostle Paul accountable for his false teachings on “faith only” salvation in the books of Romans and Ephesians?

6)  Would Paul be allowed to serve as an Elder in your Church? Jesus is called the “high priest” for the Jewish audience in the book of Hebrews. Doe he fit the criteria to be an elder of a congregation?

7)  Is it better for a man not to marry? Would a preacher be more effective if he was not married? Should Paul’s thoughts on the subject be considered advice? inference? command?

8)  Is the Bible silent on the following issues? song leaders, song books, choirs, paid preachers, church supported colleges, proper dress attire in a worship assembly, Wed. night assemblies, organs, communion being part of a worship service, clapping in a church service, indoor baptisms, sitting and standing in unison during a service, proper methods of baptisms, singing songs written by members of differing denominations, women singing in a church service (are they silent?), youth ministers, church secretaries, and church buildings?

9)  If my eyes are causing me to sin should I gauge them out? Should this be taken literally? Why or why not? Is this instruction you would give another Christian?

10)  How many times does the Book of James mention Baptism as a necessary work? Does it mention it at all? What is the main point of the Book of James?

11)  How many times did Jesus address what proper worship in public assembly consists of?

12)  Where in the Bible (please provide book, chapter, and verse) is the Lord’s Supper set to consist of grape juice and crackers that must be observed every Sunday morning. 

13)  Please provide book, chapter, verse that bans alcohol drinking as well as dancing.

14)  Where does the idea of being “silent where the Bible is silent” appear in the Bible (please provide book, chapter, verse)

15)  Is gluttony a sin? If so, is eating fast food a sin; or is overeating fast food a sin?

16)  Was the original Lord’s Supper unscriptural occurring as a Passover dinner on a Thursday night?

17)  I have never seen any Church today conform to the clear pattern of practice set in Acts 2:44-45. Why is this clear example ignored?

18)  Why was Jesus baptized? 

19)  Did Jesus have any fears or doubts about his role? If he did would this make him “imperfect” or does it display his humanity?

20)  Who did Jesus butt heads with the most? Why?

21)  What does “infallible” mean to you? Please provide the book, chapter, verse that the Bible claims to be infallible.

22)  Where did the Bible come from? Who decided what books it should consist of? Were the men that decided this Christians? Was God guiding them?

23)  When did the church fall into apostasy? Has there been a time when the Church of Christ did not exist? Has there been a time when it was united?Thanks to “DMH” for the list of questions.

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17 thoughts on “23 Good Questions to Ask a CofC Fundamentalist

  1. This is an email from Johnny:

    From Johnny: Randy no amount of excuses will make up for the fact that neither you nor any preacher in Henry Co for 10 years has been able to answer us

    and her is just another thought

    why do they all respond to us so ? We have not had “our brand” of teaching out there, and now we do… why not just let us be? they all have their brand and they talk about each other pentecostals say on BTW it vexes them to hear Baptist say no tongues
    you amke out that we are soooooo bad just because we want to put “our brand ” out there. Dont we have the same right as all you other (i forgot you aren’t anything, just a debunker of all) “faiths”

    so inconsistent of you all. Just let us preach “our gospel” which happens to contain refutation of others, and leave us alone. It doesn’t amtter any way we are all going to the same place
    The JW say all denoms are lost , I dont hear you all on them
    just us
    must be we are hitting a cord
    I know we are
    and aren’t your spies telling you about the baptisms over here?
    falling down aren’t you
    and I haven’t heard you mention our “you cant call it preaching school” is back up and we are supporting the man fired by the Reverends at Danville school, and the lawyers from GA who are taking up the case. All goood stuff for your site. How about my new 30 minutes to let even more peop;e ask me questions? Don’t see that amonst all the “faith” just more empty praise reports of wanna be miracles
    oh how about BTW advertising for Hurleys Uptown ?
    why dont you cover that ?
    you didnt say anything about the paper either
    we have struck a cord in you Randy it is easy to see
    cant answer a question Edward Fudge ? Hell? is it your position
    btw our brethren are all hailing Shawn for getting put off your site. If you can’t answer then kick him off

    seems someone out west never heard of the church and now has through your website

    Froma Randy: btw, Johnny, people out west know you are also a small dying out breed of legalist….this comes from your very own church of Christ people out west. And as I ask you, come on here and debate the weak little argumants you have or should you get Shawn or somebody to do it for you.

  2. 1) I was baptized at age 10 for the forgiveness of my sins (in a Church of Christ) what sins were I capable of committing at this point in my life? If I died before my baptism would I have gone to Hell?

    Rick here: What does this have to do with the price of corn in Oklahoma? Would this not be the same as your so-called “faith only” doctrine (believing in Christ and repenting of your sins)? At what age does a person really, truly understand his accountability before God?

    2) Where does the age of accountability for proper baptism appear in the Bible? Please provide book, chapter, and verse

    Rick here: There is no book, chapter and verse on the age of accountability that is why it is different for each person. Nothing is said about the “age” of accountability because New Testament converts were old enough to make decisions based upon their own will (cf. Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38).

    3) Is Matthew 28:19 proper baptismal instructions? Or did Jesus make an incomplete statement?

    Rick here: Jesus never made an incomplete statement, at the same time; He did not say everything about salvation every time He opened His mouth. To imply such is ridiculous.

    4) Would you consider keeping another man as a slave to be sin? (Please keep in mind 1 Timothy 6:1-2, Ephesians 6:5)

    Rick here: No! Your modern psychobabble is showing… God keeps slaves (cf. Rom. 6:16-18).

    5) Is the apostle Paul accountable for his false teachings on “faith only” salvation in the books of Romans and Ephesians?

    Rick here: This is a false question and you know it. He cannot be held accountable for that which he did not do. He would actually have to teach “faith only” to be held accountable for it.

    6) Would Paul be allowed to serve as an Elder in your Church? Jesus is called the “high priest” for the Jewish audience in the book of Hebrews. Doe he fit the criteria to be an elder of a congregation?

    Rick here: No! No! Both serve at a greater capacity than a local elder.

    7) Is it better for a man not to marry? Would a preacher be more effective if he was not married? Should Paul’s thoughts on the subject be considered advice? inference? command?

    Rick here: Under certain circumstance yes. Could go either way, this is a matter of choice. If you are referring to the Corinthians correspondence then it is advice under the circumstances. Context is important is understanding what any one has said.

    Is the Bible silent on the following issues? song leaders, song books, choirs, paid preachers, church supported colleges, proper dress attire in a worship assembly, Wed. night assemblies, organs, communion being part of a worship service, clapping in a church service, indoor baptisms, sitting and standing in unison during a service, proper methods of baptisms, singing songs written by members of differing denominations, women singing in a church service (are they silent?), youth ministers, church secretaries, and church buildings?

    Rick here: No!

    9) If my eyes are causing me to sin should I gauge them out? Should this be taken literally? Why or why not? Is this instruction you would give another Christian?

    Rick here: No! No! Because of the laws of language. Yes, in the same manner that Jesus did.

    10) How many times does the Book of James mention Baptism as a necessary work? Does it mention it at all? What is the main point of the Book of James?

    Rick here: Not once! Nope! The theme is how to live the Christian life.

    11) How many times did Jesus address what proper worship in public assembly consists of?

    Rick here: I am not sure of the exact number.

    12) Where in the Bible (please provide book, chapter, and verse) is the Lord’s Supper set to consist of grape juice and crackers that must be observed every Sunday morning.

    Rick here: 1 Corinthians 11 & Acts 20:7

    13) Please provide book, chapter, verse that bans alcohol drinking as well as dancing.

    Rick here: What makes you think that these are wrong in and of themselves and upon all occasions?

    14) Where does the idea of being “silent where the Bible is silent” appear in the Bible (please provide book, chapter, verse)

    Rick here: 1 Peter 4:11

    15) Is gluttony a sin? If so, is eating fast food a sin; or is overeating fast food a sin?
    Rick here: It would seem by your questions that we may have two differing views of gluttonous behavior. Yes! No! It can be but not necessarily by definition.

    16) Was the original Lord’s Supper unscriptural occurring as a Passover dinner on a Thursday night?

    Rick here: If by original you mean the institution of the Lord’s Supper, No!

    17) I have never seen any Church today conform to the clear pattern of practice set in Acts 2:44-45. Why is this clear example ignored?

    Rick here: You have not explained what the example is. Come to Lindsay and you can see the clear pattern practiced.

    18) Why was Jesus baptized?

    Rick here: to fulfill all righteousness (Mat. 3:15).

    19) Did Jesus have any fears or doubts about his role? If he did would this make him “imperfect” or does it display his humanity?

    Rick here:

    20) Who did Jesus butt heads with the most? Why?

    Rick here: religious leaders. Liberalism.

    21) What does “infallible” mean to you? Please provide the book, chapter, verse that the Bible claims to be infallible.

    Rick here: It does not matter what it means to me, the definition is, “incapable of erring.” 2 Tim. 3:16-17

    22) Where did the Bible come from? Who decided what books it should consist of? Were the men that decided this Christians? Was God guiding them?

    Rick here: God. God. If God, then not men.

    23) When did the church fall into apostasy? Has there been a time when the Church of Christ did not exist? Has there been a time when it was united?

    Rick here: Which church? date not given in scripture. Some churches were in apostasy in the 1st Century. Yes! Yes!

  3. 1) I was baptized at age 10 for the forgiveness of my sins (in a Church of Christ) what sins were I capable of committing at this point in my life? If I died before my baptism would I have gone to Hell?

    You tell us – if you were really baptized because you wanted your sins remitted, then you would surely know what those sins were. If you didn’t know of any sins, why were you trying to get them remitted, and if you’re claiming now that you didn’t have any, then how could it have been for reemission of something that didn’t exist?

    2) Where does the age of accountability for proper baptism appear in the Bible? Please provide book, chapter, and verse

    The Bible never speaks of such a thing. The Bible is very clear about who should be baptized – sinners (Acts 2), believers (Acts 8:37), those who can be taught to observe all things (Matt 28:20). It’s very clear that a baby is not a candidate for baptism, and just as clear that a old man is – so the point at which they should be baptized must come somewhere between the two, right? If you meet the criteria, you’re accountable, if you don’t your not – it has nothing to do with age.

    5) Is the apostle Paul accountable for his false teachings on “faith only” salvation in the books of Romans and Ephesians?

    The only writer who mentions “faith only” is James. Paul doesn’t teach faith only in Ephesians, just like he doesn’t teach baptism only in Acts 22:16, Romans 6, Galatians 3:27, I Corinthians 15:29, or Colossians 2:12.

    6) Would Paul be allowed to serve as an Elder in your Church? Jesus is called the “high priest” for the Jewish audience in the book of Hebrews. Doe he fit the criteria to be an elder of a congregation?

    Why don’t you ask Paul? He says that an elder:

    MUST be the husband of one wife (I Timothy 3:2) and rule his own house well, having his children in subjection.

    He says the same thing to Titus:

    Tit 1:6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.

    So it seems Paul would say no.

    9) If my eyes are causing me to sin should I gauge them out? Should this be taken literally? Why or why not? Is this instruction you would give another Christian?

    Do you think that Christ meant it literally?

    What is this? All these questions about slaves, choosing to be single, gluttony, drinking – these are questions you could ask anybody, they aren’t “stumpers” for members of the church. The Baptists from my hometown will tell you that Christ didn’t want you to poke a stick in your eye, doesn’t approve of gluttony, bar hopping, etc. – rather then being “good questions” these random thoughts seem to be the product of a confused mind.

  4. jp, thanks for the invite. I can understand why some, especially moderates dislike the inquiries. No problem. If there are some that clarified, I am sure that we can discuss them as well.

  5. Thank you for taking the time to address some of these questions. They were not intended to be “stumpers” for conservative Church of Christ members. Some of these questions call for simple Bible verses to support long term held beliefs; others have had books written in order to explain them. I think any Christian would do well to examine their responses to these questions. I was just hoping to spawn some good conversation. Anyone should feel free to add more questions to the list.

  6. Since Shawn has refused to participate over on topix, I’ll go ahead and take a stab at one of the questions.

    12) Where in the Bible (please provide book, chapter, and verse) is the Lord’s Supper set to consist of grape juice and crackers that must be observed every Sunday morning.?

    – It simply does not. Let’s look at some of the verses used to push this line of reasoning.

    Acts 20:7 simply states that “the first day of the week, the disciples came together to break bread…….” That is it. We have really no idea what breaking the bread is. Is this the Lord’s Supper/communion/Eucharist, or is it simply a communal meal. Maybe the Lord’s Supper was viewed as a communal meal at that time? Maybe people who do not practice it as such today are not following the example set by First Century Christianity? Or maybe the idea of what the Lord’s Supper would consist of would form over time considering the culture surrounding it? Another interesting thing is that many scholars believe that the Jewish first day of the week began at dusk on Sat. That would explain why Paul preached until midnight in this verse.

    1 Cor. 11 20-34- is by far our most detailed description of a congregation taking the Lord’s Supper together. What does it stress? It certainly makes no mention of frequency that it must be done. There is no mention that grape juice is being used instead of the wine people throughout the Middle East drank during the First Century. As a matter of fact Paul is angry that people are getting drunk from the wine that is being used! We have no details of exactly what food sources are allowed. We also have no idea if the Corinthian Church had access to the written gospel accounts of the First Lord’s Supper. What we do know is the themes Paul stresses. He is angry about the greed of some the members for hogging the food. He points to the greater power of observing the Lord’s Supper calling the people to remember why they are doing it. It should be done to examine oneself and connect spiritually to the Jesus’ sacrifice. Paul does not feel the need to lay out a perfect Lord’s Supper form. He gets to the meat of the matter and past the petty arguing. I think this is advice we should all heed.

    – I am not saying these are the only right answers. I respect others beliefs and interpretations on the subject. What I do believe is wrong is condemning others for their interpretations of these scriptures. Wouldn’t Paul agree?

  7. Johnny english 🙂

    I honestly like Johnny, but disagree with him on things. He and I still email each other.

  8. “Maybe the Lord’s Supper was viewed as a communal meal at that time?”

    1Co 11:34 And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come.

    That’s what the Corinthians did, and Paul objected strongly to the idea.

  9. The most extensive treatment of the Lord’s supper is found in chapters 10 and 11 of 1 Corinthians. The deep divisions of the Corinthian believers resulted in the Lord’s supper meetings do more harm than good (11:17-18). They were partaking of the supper in a “unworthy manner” (11:27). The wealthier people among them, perhaps not wanting to eat with a lower social classes, evidently came to the gathering so early and remained there so long that some became drunk. Making matters worse, by the time that the working-class believers arrived, delayed by employment constraints, all the food had been consumed and they went home hungry (11:21-22). Some of the Corinthian’s failed to recognize the supper as a sacred, covenant meal (11:23-32).

    The abuses were so serious that what was supposed to be the Lord’s supper had instead become their own supper (11:21, NASV). Thus Paul asked, “don’t you have homes to eat and drink in?” If eating their own supper was the entire objective, private dining at home would do. Their sinful selfishness absolutely betrayed the very essence of what the Lord’s supper is all about.

    From the nature of their abuse, it is evident that the Corinthian church rightly partook of the Lord’s supper as a full meal. In contrast, very few people in modern churches would ever come to a typical Lord’s supper service expecting to have physical hunger satisfied. Nor could they possibly get drunk from drinking a thimble sized cup of wine (or much less, great juice).

    The inspired solution for the Corinthian’s abuse of the supper was not that the Church cease eating it as a full meal. Instead, Paul wrote, “when you come together to eat, wait for each other.” Only those so famished or undisciplined or selfish that they could not wait for the others are instructed to “eat at home” (1 Cor 11:34). Keep in mind that Paul wrote to the Corinthian church some 20 years after Jesus turned his Last Supper into our Lord’s supper. Just as the Last Supper was a full meal, so to the Corinthians understood the Lord’s supper to be a true meal.

    Additionally, the word behind “supper” (1 Cor 11:20) is deipnon, which means “dinner, the main meal toward evening, banquet.” It never refers to anything less than the full meal, such as an appetizer or a snack. What is the possibility that the authors of the New Testament would use deipnon to refer to the Lords “Supper” if it were not supposed to be a full meal? The Lord’s supper originally had numerous forward-looking aspects to it. As a full meal, it prefigured the feast of the coming kingdom, the marriage supper of the Lamb

  10. Thanks, David. You have a very cool blog – very interesting and well thought out. You are also good with the turn of a phrase – I like the “bald grumpy monkey” line for some reason. Looking forward to your participation here!

    Blessings,
    Nathan

  11. Here is my two-cents worth on these questions:

    1) I was baptized at age 10 for the forgiveness of my sins (in a Church of Christ) what sins were I capable of committing at this point in my life? If I died before my baptism would I have gone to Hell?

    A: Well, I’m sure that Johnny and gang would say that a ten year old doesn’t need to be baptized because he is not accountable. The problem with this is that the majority of CHOC congregations DO baptize 10-year olds! Another problem is that there is no such monster in the Bible as the infamous ‘Age of Accountability’. In other words, there is no way to determine who is eligible for baptism or not.

    2) Where does the age of accountability for proper baptism appear in the Bible? Please provide book, chapter, and verse

    A: Answer above

    3) Is Matthew 28:19 proper baptismal instructions? Or did Jesus make an incomplete statement?

    A: Who knows if Jesus even said this? Further more, who knows if Matthew was actually written by a man named Matthew?

    4) Would you consider keeping another man as a slave to be sin?(Please keep in mind 1 Timothy 6:1-2, Ephesians 6:5)

    A: The Bible is all in favor of slavery. Just read Philemon where Paul instructs Onesimus (a slave) to return to his slave master because it is the right thing to do. What if Onesimus was a child who had been kidnapped? Would Paul had told him to return to his kidnapper? No, but why? Because kidnapping is WRONG. Therefore, if Paul tells a slave to return to his ‘master’ instead of rebuking the ‘master’, then Paul thinks slavery is okay. I like to bring this out when people ask me where I get my morals from, which certainly isn’t the Bible.

    5) Is the apostle Paul accountable for his false teachings on “faith only” salvation in the books of Romans and Ephesians?

    A: Contradictions abound.

    6) Would Paul be allowed to serve as an Elder in your Church? Jesus is called the “high priest” for the Jewish audience in the book of Hebrews. Doe he fit the criteria to be an elder of a congregation?

    A: No comment

    7) Is it better for a man not to marry? Would a preacher be more effective if he was not married? Should Paul’s thoughts on the subject be considered advice? inference? command?

    A: No comment. Well, I will say that it should be no wonder why monastic aestheticism was and is such a prominent factor in Christianity. The inspiration for such surely has apostolic origin.

    Is the Bible silent on the following issues? song leaders, song books, choirs, paid preachers, church supported colleges, proper dress attire in a worship assembly, Wed. night assemblies, organs, communion being part of a worship service, clapping in a church service, indoor baptisms, sitting and standing in unison during a service, proper methods of baptisms, singing songs written by members of differing denominations, women singing in a church service (are they silent?), youth ministers, church secretaries, and church buildings?

    A: No, the Bible doesn’t seem to give instruction concerning these issues. I will say, in defense of the Bible, that only an idiot would expect every little thing done to be carefully laid out in written form. Take singing for instance: we know that no instrument of music can accompany the singing (according to apostle Robertson). What about standing while singing? Did God authorize standing during singing? He didn’t say ‘stand and sing’ did he? Uh-oh…no authority; God will not accept such worship. What about sitting? Can you sing while sitting? God didn’t say ‘sit in a pew and sing’; no authority.

    I must point out a blatant contradiction at this point. Paul tells women to be silent in church (I Cor. 14). But in Ephesians, EVERYONE is told to sing. Paul, make up your mind!

    9) If my eyes are causing me to sin should I gauge them out? Should this be taken literally? Why or why not? Is this instruction you would give another Christian?

    A: There is no reason one should take this statement any other way but literally. In the context, preceding and following this statement, all is to be taken as literal. Why not these words as well? If you have a problem looking at women and lusting, why, put out your eye! Makes perfect sense to me. What? Am I to put out my figurative eye to keep me from literally lusting? Of course, there is always the ‘hyperbole’ answer. Unfortunately, Johnny cannot attribute this to hyperbole since he jumped on the southern Baptist preacher for accrediting a statement to such. Again, what in this text leads us to believe that Jesus was using hyperbole? If you can pick and choose in this instance, than I can pick and choose any verse in the Bible and say ‘Jesus or Paul didn’t really mean that’.

    10) How many times does the Book of James mention Baptism as a necessary work? Does it mention it at all? What is the main point of the Book of James?

    A: No comment

    11) How many times did Jesus address what proper worship in public assembly consists of?

    A: Did he ever?

    12) Where in the Bible (please provide book, chapter, and verse) is the Lord’s Supper set to consist of grape juice and crackers that must be observed every Sunday morning.

    A: Nowhere in all of the Scriptures.

    13) Please provide book, chapter, verse that bans alcohol drinking as well as dancing.

    A: Nowhere is either banned. Drinking is not prohibited. Drunkenness is.

    14) Where does the idea of being “silent where the Bible is silent” appear in the Bible (please provide book, chapter, verse)

    A: This is the Campbellite Creed, not Scripture.

    15) Is gluttony a sin? If so, is eating fast food a sin; or is overeating fast food a sin?

    A: This is what kills me about religion. I am to believe that smoking is sinful. Why? Well two reasons are often given. (1) Smoking is bad for you. SO is fast food. Am I a sinner because I stop at Mickey D’s? (2) It is addictive, and addictions are sinful. Well, now…how many preachers and Christians are addicted to coffee? I have heard coffee referred to as being the ’Baptist Beer’. Don’t you just get tired of sitting and listening to gluttonous hogs like John Hagee get up and tell you about self control and harming your body?

    16) Was the original Lord’s Supper unscriptural occurring as a Passover dinner on a Thursday night?

    A: Was Jesus crucified before the Passover or after? The Gospels give conflicting versions. It is also very interesting. That the church of Christ says you can only take the Lord’s supper on Sunday when it wasn’t even instituted on Sunday!

    17) I have never seen any Church today conform to the clear pattern of practice set in Acts 2:44-45. Why is this clear example ignored?

    A: Because they don’t want to do it God’s way in this instance. Pick and choose.

    18) Why was Jesus baptized?

    A: Who knows? Why are people baptized today, if Ephesians 4 says there is only one baptism, and that baptism is a spirit baptism?

    19) Did Jesus have any fears or doubts about his role? If he did would this make him “imperfect” or does it display his humanity?

    A: How was Jesus 100% human, and 100% God? That is beyond possible. That is a contradiction in nature. What kills me about the apologist’s acceptance of this teaching is that, when an atheist asks the ‘can God create a rock so big that he cannot lift it’ question, the theist who accept the above dilemma concerning Jesus nature reject the validity of the atheist inquiry because they say it is contradictory in nature. What hypocrites. And by the way, omnipotence is a contradictory and non-viable attribute, not the rock-lifting question!

    20) Who did Jesus butt heads with the most? Why?

    A: Anyone who disagreed with his interpretation of the Scriptures.

    21) What does “infallible” mean to you? Please provide the book, chapter, verse that the Bible claims to be infallible.

    A: No comment.

    22) Where did the Bible come from? Who decided what books it should consist of? Were the men that decided this Christians? Was God guiding them?

    A: Excellent question. The only one I can answer is the third one. Christians at the council of Nicaea decided the New Testament canon.

  12. Let me see if I can add to this list:

    If Erza 10 is about sending wives and children away to preserve the Jewish race and religion and Acts 10 God clearly accepts non-jews now and 1 Cor clearly says to not leave a non-believer are not both reasons for sending a wife and children away gone>

    If so how is it that you attempt to bind people to this Old Testament passage that is clearly canceled in the New Testament?

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