Debate – Part III

 

Now THIS was a debate.  I’ve been watching the Church of Christ broadcasts for quite some time, and this is the first time I felt like they really had a legitimate debate.  Kudos to Johnny and Armando for the civility and the good points made on both sides.

I’ve mentioned before that I am a “trinitarian”.  So, as I think back over the broadcast, I find myself in the very unusual place of agreeing with Johnny for nearly an entire broadcast!  Very interesting feeling, this.  A bit disconcerting… 😉

Because the debate itself went so well tonight, I’m going to actually dig into what was argued.  Since I am a trinitarian, I was looking for Armando to convince me of his position tonight, and it just didn’t happen.  Some thoughts along those lines, directed to Armando:

 

1. Your example that trinitarians have four gods is not correct.  Actually, I agree completely in your quotation of Deut 6:4 – that “The Lord our God is one”.  All trinitarians agree with this.  We have one God: the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.  As Johnny said, the word “trinity” is just a word that is used to try and explain this very mysterious concept.

2. I would have liked to have heard a response to Johnny’s arguments.  He laid out several verses where there’s more than one personality involved in the Godhead – and the Bible would need to be rewritten to support your assertion that it’s only one personality.

3. I thought it was funny that you mentioned John 1:1 – I had just written that verse down as an argument in support of the different distinct personalities of God.

4. Your argument about Rev 4:2 – yes, John saw “one” sitting on the throne.  But, that’s not the end of it.  Later, in Rev 5, we read about another person – “The Lamb”.  Look at Rev 5:13:  “And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, [be] unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.”  Are the lamb and the one sitting on the throne the same person?

5. Johnny mentioned Rev 20:4 as there being more than one throne.  I am not sure if he was implying thrones for each person of the trinity – but it seems from reading the context that this is referencing thrones for the saints in some form.

6. You said “the Jehovah’s Witnesses believe in the trinity”.  What?  Read this link to see that they most certainly do not: http://www.watchtower.org/e/ti/index.htm.  You also said the Mormons believe in the trinity.  Their belief of the trinity is more like what you are criticizing – that there are three gods involved.  It really is polytheism.  http://www.mormonolympians.org/mormon/godhead_mormonism.html, but their belief doesn’t jive with Scripture – at least not Biblical scripture.  Maybe the Book of Mormon?

As to Johnny’s “performance” tonight, I’d just say that the only thing that marred it for me was when he briefly fell back into his usual “what church are you in?” routine.  I’m glad he didn’t stay in that.  I thought he did a good job again of moving things along, and handling the callers, some of whom were… interesting (to say the least).

The only critique I’d make about the debate I would make is that I’d like to have had the two men really respond to the arguments that the other was making.  Because through each ten minute session, each man was essentially continuing the same argument of the prior ten minutes.  In Johnny’s case, he was just continuing the argument – in Armando’s case, he was repeating many of the same arguments over and over.

That being said, I thoroughly enjoyed tonight’s debate.  And, in case he does read this, I have a brief message to Johnny:  If you would do this sort of debate more often, where it is fair and balanced, avoiding the theatrics, you would find a lot less criticism from the community, and your message would get out much more effectively, IMO.

Nathan’s Blog Result of the Third Night:

(Kudos again to both men for great civility and jobs well done, but…)

Johnny 1 / Armando 0

 

Look for the newspaper headline tomorrow… “Hell Freezes Over!”

Advertisements

7 thoughts on “Debate – Part III

  1. Awe your silly and do not comprehend the Word. if you would have paid attention i proved Jesus is the Father . And Jw believe in trinity i am an ex trinity mormons do too so it really doesnt matter. As for the debate God moved in this area i had at least 12 phone calls for people and God did move alot. I will debate my cause against your doctrine . It funny how you guys dont see truth . but, any who. Thank you much its been fun i will let Ricky debate you if you think you know your bible.

    Pastor Deloa

  2. It seems that while Pastor Deloa is coming 3000 miles away from his family and church in order to bring light to lost souls, Johnny is fixiated on tempting the Lord.

    While Johnny is resting from his “win” according to this blogger, let’s dive into the word of God and what He, the Lord, says to those who expect Him to prove himself.

    Deut 6:16 Ye shall not tempt the LORD your God, as ye tempted him in Massah.

    For those of you who may not know this, this LORD is actually YHWH or Yhovah in Hebrew.

    Now, let’s take a look at how Jesus responds to Satan’s attempt to tempt him in the verse below.

    Matt 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
    Matt 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

    It’s funny how he uses the exact same verse found in Deut 6:16. A note for all you trinitarian bible scholars, LORD (YHWH, Yhovah) in Hebrew is directly translated into Lord (Kurios) in Greek. Remember Kurios, the exact word he chose to use here in Matthew 4:7.

    Yes, I said, the devil was tempting God here. The devil was not tempting Jesus to tempt God. That’s a trinitarian view but it’s not so. God is Jesus and Jesus told the Devil not to tempt him, it was God speaking through his flesh. (2nd Timothy 3:16)

    Miss you, Pastor. You taught me well.

    Acts 9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
    Acts 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest:

    Guess what guys… Paul didn’t know who his Lord was! He said, Who art thou, Lord (Kurios)?
    And what did the Lord (Kurios) say? Let’s read that again. And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. Jesus? Yes’m Jesus is Kurios!

    Jesus 1 Trinitarian 3

  3. Thank you Armondo Deloa for speaking Truth!
    The world is filled with Religion and tradition Thank God we have truth!
    If you think you do not need to be baptized in Jesus Name you better be right God is coming soon!

  4. Armando,

    What I said was that you didn’t convince ME. You didn’t prove your point of view, in my opinion. I don’t appreciate you calling me “silly” because I disagree with you about this subject. This is as bad as Johnny calling me a “giggling little girl” a couple of weeks ago. Why must people call names when someone disagrees with them? *sigh*

    Of course, it’s hard to convince people of something so huge in a short period of time. I’ve been watching Johnny for quite some time and he’s never convinced me of his doctrine – perhaps because I hear him talking one thing, but it seems to all be outside of the character of Christ. That was what so impressed me last night, that it seemed like a real debate, without tricks or petty arguments. And as I said, Johnny seemed to be acting “decent” – perhaps as a result of your debate? Maybe because of something he’d read in the blog? I don’t know.

    Can you explain more about the JWs and the trinity? Why would they spend so much time officially denouncing the trinity if they believe in it? That link I provided is the Watchtower, and if you look at it, you’ll see that they spend quite a bit of time denying the trinity.

  5. Ok what i meant was it is silly to not understand i did not call you silly. The Jw’s Believe this . Jehova God, Jesus the Son and the active force of God (holy ghost) Because they will not actually admit this that the HOly Ghost is God. Now , lets see. Father ; Son; Holy Ghost. Remember they dont believe in the Holy Ghost they believe that it is the active force of God. I understand that it is difficult to see this in a short time. But, I had people tell me today that i actually made more sense than Johnny (not to be insulting) Johnny said ” Armando you came here quietly you will leave quietly” But, God opened 3 churches for me to preach to them today i only preached at one tomarrow i will be visiting another pastor . so, i know God touching the hearts of the people. Also, i went to 2 different resturants and several peopl wanted my phone number and E-mail because the said i made sense. I will ask those people to call in when i get there tonight. Again , because you are trinitarian this is why you back johnny up but, i can prove the One true God. What is the Name of the Father?

  6. Armando, thank you for clearing up the “silly” remark. However, it sounded like you were calling me silly when you wrote, “your silly and don’t comprehend the Word”. But, no worries.

    If the JWs believe that the Holy Ghost is not person, but the “active force of God”, then that’s not a trinity. That’s a duality. But, they also don’t believe that Jesus is God, but is just the Son. And again, the link I gave is all about how they are opposed to the idea of the trinity. I don’t think I can agree with you on this.

    I’m not at all insulted that some folks felt you made more sense. I appreciate that some people felt differently than I did. But if I were to guess, I’d say that the trinitarians who watched ended up siding with Johnny, and the “God is One” folks who watched sided with you. My opinion was just that – my opinion. And, I started this blog, so that’s why I give my opinion here. Anyone else is free to write and give their thoughts, too.

    I’m also glad that you were able to preach here and meet with other pastors. As I said earlier, the fact that we don’t agree on this issue doesn’t make me your enemy – I still consider you my brother in Christ. In fact, I do agree with you on the subject of miracles. My wife and I just prayed today for a man who is going to have a biopsy done on a tumor, and we believe that God can work a healing miracle in this man’s life. It boils down to having faith – like Hebrews 11 talks about the cloud of witnesses – people who all lived by faith. Some of them had “the promise” fulfilled, others didn’t.

    Well, I’ll be looking forward to tonight’s debate, and wish you well on your final night. Thanks for joining in our discussions while you have been in town! I wish Johnny would do the same, but it’s his choice.

    Blessings,
    Nathan

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s