Debate – Part II

Observations:

  1. It was rather rude that Johnny wouldn’t help Armando set up his computer presentation.  Something was certainly troubling Johnny about the computer presentation Armando wanted to make.  I wonder what it was?  It seems like it was a control issue – the same reason that I believe Johnny won’t participate in our discussions – he has no control here.
  2. My predictions turned out to be true – tonight we had Church of Christ callers.    Where were they last night?
  3. Johnny seems stuck on the miracle issue – didn’t he tell Armando last night that he would discuss Armando’s non-trinitarian doctrine tonight?  The funny thing is I would be on Johnny’s side of the argument if he would discuss that issue.  This was reiterated to me when the caller asked Armando to go on about the Trinity.  It’s interesting to me that Armando said that he was a Jehovah’s Witness before he became a Christian – and the Jehovah’s Witnesses also deny the Trinity.  But Johnny keeps avoiding a topic that could be a slam dunk for him.   
  4. I appreciated Armando’s humility.  He continues saying that he doesn’t do the healing – that God can use him, but doesn’t have to.  And Johnny shackles God by saying that God could perform a miracle, but he won’t.  Johnny – are you God to say this?  
  5. Again, according to the beliefs of Johnny, Norm and James, the one mention of a healing that wasn’t instantaneous should be enough.  They use the one mention of “churches of Christ” in Romans 16:16 to give them authority to name their church.  They use the one verse that says the disciples broke bread together on the first day of the week to give them authority (actually, it is a commandment to them) to observe the Lord’s Supper each Sunday – and to condemn those who don’t.  One mention should be enough authority for the Church of Christ TV hosts.
  6. I liked the format better tonight – it was more orderly, at least the first portion where each speaker had separate time to speak and rebut.  However, I think it would have been better if both speakers had the same idea of what the topic would be.  Johnny seemed to think it was about miracles, Armando seemed to think it was about the doctrine of “God only”.  What was the original plan? 
  7. Johnny did a good job of moving the phone call section along, and sharing the response time with Armando. 
  8. Why did Johnny keep bringing up that he gave his guests a ride to Greensboro and they didn’t publicly thank him?  If they are his guests, it seems only right that he would get them to Greensboro.  Why’d they need to go to Greensboro anyway?  That was a bit odd.   
  9. This thought occurred to me while watching – if Johnny believes that fame follows the power of the Holy Ghost, why doesn’t he believe the famous preachers who claim to have the power of the Holy Ghost? 
  10. I invite Armando to send me the pictures Johnny and Armando were talking about.  I’ll put them on this blog.  I also invite him to email me the itinerary that Johnny sent him, and I’ll post them as well. 
  11. I’d like for Armando to clear up the question about the 120 in the upper room.  I wasn’t clear how he got that number out of the Scripture passages he mentioned. 
  12. Johnny’s response to the lady who didn’t feel she could come to faith because she was struggling with sin was a good one – that you don’t get cleaned up to take a shower (my words).  Of course, I disagree with him on the role of baptism in that cleansing, but that’s another story.
  13. Johnny, it’s not “answeringthechurchofchrist.com”  It’s “answeringchurchofchrist.wordpress.com”.  But thanks for the mention.  I hope you’ll come over and discuss, too!

Well, tonight was a bit more evenly matched.  I felt like Johnny, even with his strange refusal to allow Armando to show his laptop, did a better job than last night.  Armando seemed pretty frustrated that Johnny wouldn’t discuss the “God only” topic, as was I.  However, I would have to call this round a match – I didn’t see any clear winner tonight. 

Nathan’s Blog Result of the Second Night:Armando – 1/Johnny – 1 

Anyone else have thoughts? 

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25 thoughts on “Debate – Part II

  1. I am so appreciated of your kind words and thoughts again we did get a few responses on my personal phone. Well, i was expecting to talk of the one God . But, again Johnny wanted a miracle to perform. I dont do the healings again God does, and God will get the glory. Johnny was a little dishearted because i said he was a novice it is sad that he got so upset and kept from hooking my computer up but, oh well, what can you do. I really dont think i was frustrated on any of his debate i just dont like liars who profess Christ . He lied to me and that is what really frustrated me and was the only thing that frustrated me. I dont worry about God not moving, cause i know my God. Again, i dont want any one to think Johnny has been rude (just not hooking up the computer) that was bad when he said i had a cord to help me. So, oh well again what could i say. People God does not need to prove to you God can He has already it is written . But, the Love of God is what is going to move God. Tomarrow Johnny promises to wipe out the one ness. but, again to explain this in 10 mins not enough time. But, i will do my best with out my hook ups. I really dont think there was a strong battle with Johnny just my opinion . I do want to say hes good at bringing points but, i just personally dont feel he had strong argument. Just my opinions.

    LETS SEE WHAT THE WILL OF GOD IS> Johnny never mentioned i prayed for warm wheather and sunshine . I am still praying lets all agree for it. Any good night

    Pastor Deloa

  2. Hi Linda,

    Star39 WGSR, reaches the North Carolina communities of Eden and Rockingham County, as well as Danville, VA and Martinsville. I’m not sure of the channel in those other areas, but here in Martinsville it’s channel 3 on Comcast cable. I’ve heard you can’t get the channel if you have Direct TV.

    Which actually brings to a point I wanted to make to Armando – I think the actual viewership of these programs is pretty small. For example, most of those who phone in from week to week are the same folks. Every now and again you get a new voice, but it’s rare. I wonder if Johnny or the Star 39 folks have any statistics on viewer numbers?

  3. I would like to address the issue of how the 10 minute times were used. If Johnney wanted to spend his time talking about miracles and wait until the last 10 to address the oneness issue that his his choice. Armondo did not have to follow or talk about the miracles he could have went right to the oneness doctrine and jabbed at Johnney for not addressing it right away. When Armondo is given time he can use it how ever he sees fit. He chose to go back to the miracles with Johnney but has yet to produce any proof that he can do a miracle like he claims. It seems to me that if he would do one it would prove all the other points even the oneness doctrine.

    1Thessanonians 5:21 Prove all things ; hold fast to that which is good.

    I also think you should change the name of this website to questioning the church of Christ because I don’t see any answers more questions and accusations and don’t forget the work of the devil is to accuse the bretheren.

  4. The issue to me is that apparently Johnny and Armando were supposed to spend time discussing the Trinity, and Johnny won’t go to it. If they discussed beforehand that it wouldn’t be so structured, then neverthemind. But, Armando seemed to imply that Johnny had sent him an itinerary, and that Johnny wasn’t sticking to the itinerary. If that is so, then that is when I personally have a problem, and it seems more like an ambush.

    And the difficulty with challenging Armando to do a miracle to prove himself is wrong, because Armando CAN’T do a miracle – only God can. God isn’t a lapdog who does tricks to please His masters – He is GOD.

    I appreciate the advice on the name change, and I would love to change it because it sounds like I am implicating ALL Churches of Christ, when I am in fact just addressing the teachings of Johnny Robertson, Norm Fields and James Oldfield (I would have added Jason to that list, but he was apparently transported to a different world or something). When I named it “Answering the Church of Christ” I meant “Replying to the Church of Christ” – or “Answering the Teachings of the Church of Christ”. However, with wordpress, you can’t change the name once you’ve registered. So, it’s imperfect, but it’s our name!

    What am I accusing the brethren of? We’re very cordial here, and we just talk about what we see on the program. They are public figures, and so we COULD talk about them personally, but we don’t do that. We discuss their teachings, and we answer their accusations about what others believe. Speaking of which, don’t forget that Johnny and company wouldn’t include me as brethren, because I am a part of the Presbyterian church.

    But, we are glad to have you here, faithful! Please visit and let us know your thoughts more often!

  5. Today, we visited a church in the city of Reidsville and God did a miracle for the people a man came out of a wheel chair. I have it on video. But, i will not show this video to johnnys group because they dont believe and they will speak evil against it. Again, today is beautiful and the sun comes out this is my prayers answered and tomarrow will be the same.
    Johnny told me personally that we would discuss the Oneness doctrine but, he wants to go back to miracles. The problem with this is that Johnny does not believe in this so why waste time talking about it. but, there was a few miracles that did take place, a woman who was takeing medicine to help her her with back pain told me this morning that when i prayed for her this morning she woke up with no pain at all. This is a miracle but, Johnny wont believe that. So i am going to pray eventually God will move . Now Johnny thinks i am like Cleo the witch but, she was a fraud . We have at least 60 phone numbers of people who back us up. So, far we have had at least 6 healings. now i dont really care what Johnny says but, the people can call in tonight if they would like. I dont need to prove to these gentle men God can heal let the people call.

  6. “They are public figures, and so we COULD talk about them personally, but we don’t do that. We discuss their teachings, and we answer their accusations about what others believe.”

    So saying they are rude is not a persona statement but a doctrinal issue. It seems to me you are getting caught up in personality rather than the doctrine.

    Also when they say they did a miracle , ask them if the man went back into the wheel chair. They were pressed for an answer and after many attempts thay finally said he did. Is the the lazy and just likes the chair?

  7. In this case, it was meant not a personal statement – it was an observation. However, maybe you are right, that we need to expand our “mission statement” to include observations about behavior, when warranted. Notice that I also mentioned in these debates when Johnny was “well behaved”, too.

    As to the man in the wheel chair, I would have liked to have seen the tape. I didn’t see them being pressed for an answer about the man going back into the wheel chair. Was that off the air?

  8. This is why I do not like live debates and prefer written ones. There are many factors in live debating and often behavior plays a huge role in how people see the outcome. I do think Armando won this debate, but it was a combination of things and not solely doctrinal. Johnny should drop the mud slinging and stupid remarks about Armando being lost in his car and attacks upon Armando. The issues should be addressed and not childish fighting-and that is where Johnny always messes up at…

    Johnny needs to learn that a debate should not be an attack or ambush and he should debate the issues without making fun of people being lost and other things. He wasted 10 minutes trying to create some PowerPoint cartoon of Armando riding lost in his car…pathedic !!

  9. I think this was why you were right earlier when you said that Johnny should have had Norm debate Armando instead of Johnny. Norm doesn’t tend to get as “fervent” as Johnny – but is pretty good at staying on topic and getting his message across. And I say this as a person who disagrees with Norm often. Johnny may have simply been doing this for too long – and “has too many horses in the race”.

  10. From Armando: LETS SEE WHAT THE WILL OF GOD IS> Johnny never mentioned I prayed for warm wheather and sunshine . I am still praying lets all agree for it. Any good night

    Pastor Deloa

    Posted on December 15, 2007 at 4:27 am
    2Armando Deloa Says:
    Nice day a very cloudy day but, no problem that does not stop God .

    Posted on December 15, 2007 at 9:35 am

    From Randy: I have to side with Johnny on much of the debate and comments like those above make me lean towards what Johnny stated in the debate regarding “the power some claim” I guess God chose to answer one day and make it sunny and then chose not to do as Armando prayed the next time, seeing he admited it was cloudy, not sunny. Local weather channel could have helped a bit on this.

  11. I agree, and as I said, I appreciate that Johnny is willing to confront people who overuse or abuse this sort of thing.

    I do believe God can answer prayers – even about the weather. But, I think more often the weather does what the weather does. Why would God answer a prayer for a warm and sunny day for Armando, but then not answer the prayers of folks out in the midwest who are stranded in ice and power outages, and where 30 some people died as a result of it?

  12. People one thing has been accomplished and it is this . Johnny needs to realize that he cant win everyone. But, i am sure he will be slicing and diceing. But, who cares i will be back to finishe what i need to finish. We, have many people who loved this and we wont disappoint them. These people are looking forward to a new church in the community and i hope with the help of God there will be with a different attitude and passion not for themselves but, for God.

  13. As for the weather you guys can have doubt as much as you want . It is amazing when God does something because it was said before hand and then people want to argue that it never happened. I Love the Lord and God answered my prayers on nice weather. I enjoy what i prayed did not need the tv to tell me that i said it when i was in California . Some people need to give up this false doctrine of no miracles . Eithier you Belive in God or you dont. it is sad that alot of people think they need to snap their fingers at God and then still question when God does . God laughs at Johnny and his ignorance and so do i. I will be back and do a work of God i am not finished and i have good backing.

  14. Armando, I hope you can come back and debate Johnny again, maybe on the issue of Music or the Lords supper. These are hot tpics with these guys as well. If you play music in church, you are hell bound, according to Johnny and if you take the Lords supper on any other day than Sunday, you are lost and you must also take it every Sunday or you are lost. If in the future you decide to come back and debate these issues or something else please email me @ randycraiger@yahoo.com and I will give you a heads up on the aruguments they will use. Please send me your email address too. We have addressed most of the arumants on the blog about music and the Lords supper, please read them and maybe you can come back and debate Johnny again. Even though I may disagree with many points you made in this debate, you still won the debate.

  15. Your wonderful i appreciate you alot believe me you have helped and you been so friendly . But, if you give me a chance just between us . lets us talk by email between you and me believe me i am not like Johnny i dont prance around embarassing people.But, let me know by email on what you disagree let me explain my self on what you disagree. Also, i am coming back but, to defend this community and Johnny of course doesnot think we will . He dont know us.

    Pastor Deloa

  16. I think that Randy means that you are like Johnny in that you have a “my way or the highway” approach to your theology. On your myspace site, you write: “If your pastor does not preach truth he is Lieing to you. He is responsible that you make it of course he cant force you but, he can preach what the Bible Says if he does not than he nor you or you family is heaven bound.” And your definition of truth there is from your interpretation of Scripture, and is based on certain works.

    To be honest with you, this is the attitude we’re fighting here with Johnny. I don’t mean that truth is relative, but to pronounce that Christians, who are following Christ, living holy lives for Him, but who simply have a differing interpretation of the Word than you are not heaven bound is, in my opinion, pretty arrogant. Even if you came with such a wonderful, Christlike, humble attitude – this is where my beef with you comes out, because it means that you don’t consider me a brother in Christ if I don’t subscribe to your POV.

    Am I wrong? If I am, please explain what you say at your myspace site.

    Here’s the link, by the way:
    http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=47774757&blogID=334018138

  17. I would indeed like to see you guys debate some other issues as would the people around here, but as Nathan pointed out, you may be the other side of the same coin. If youre preaching it’s your way or the highway, as is Johnny, you guys are much alike. The only difference would be you use love and kindness and Johnny uses name calling, and has a bad attitude, but in the end you both are excluding everyone from heaven who disagrees with your views. I will be blunt as I can: Do you Armando believe one is lost who holds a view differernt from yours?? If so, you are in the same boat as Johnny, youre just nicer about it, which may be even more dangerous than Johnny. If I am wrong, please do explain.

  18. I never heard Armondo ever say my way or the highway!
    BIBLE is BIBLE its not just what we believe but scripture tells us.
    So many people say”well i believe in this or that”!What does the Bible say?
    Read it ! The best book to read is the book of Acts! King James version=)

  19. I know Armando is traveling right now, and when he gets home he’ll hopefully respond. But, on Armando’s myspace site, he says this: “You see its not leagalism if you read the bible you will find its in the scripture . If your pastor does not preach truth he is Lieing to you. He is responsible that you make it of course he cant force you but, he can preach what the Bible Says if he does not than he nor you or you family is heaven bound.”

    And prior to that quote, he mentions some of the things that are apparently on his litmus test.

    I’ve asked him to respond to that – and to tell me if he considers me his brother in Christ even if I interpret Scripture differently than he does.

    If he does consider me his brother in Christ, then we don’t have a problem. If my belief in the Trinity or the way I was baptized means I’m not saved in his mind, then that’s when I realize the truth of what Randy says – that Armando and Johnny are two sides of the same coin.

    I’m just trying to get hyper-dogmatic people to realize that two committed Christians can read the Bible and come away with two different interpretations and still both be saved. I know that statement alone will cause many people’s blood pressures to go through the roof, but there you go.

  20. linda lansdon Says:

    BIBLE is BIBLE its not just what we believe but scripture tells us.
    So many people say”well i believe in this or that”!What does the Bible say?

    From Pernell: The statement you made above sounds just like the guys here. Sure, the bible has one meaning, so is your view or Johnnys right? Are you always right with what you read?? Do you ever wonder why men read verses like Acts 7:20 and some conclude one must take the Lords supper each and every Sunday and then some see this as an example some in the early church done by their free will….this one verse alone has caused sects and splits because we see it differently. This is my point! Sure the bible has one meaning, but we, being far from perfect beings, do not understand all of the bible perfectly. Paul and Peter even disagreed at times and Paul even had to correct the churhes via his letters and still addressed them as saints…well except the ones who were wanting to be saved by thier deeds, they- he said, were fallen from grace. This scares me for the men here and for those abroad who “seem” to be preaching a saved by works gospel…even to the point that everyone must understand the bible perfectly or as they view the bible. I guess that means those on the milk of the word could be lost according to this way of teaching.

    We all understand on various levels…some even misunderstand some scriptures like Acts 7:20 ( my opinion ) and use that example and make it law binding upon people….but I wouldnt dare boot them aside for their lack of understanding. Sadly the men here will not allow you to have the Lords Supper if you do not understand Acts 7:20 as they.

  21. Are you always right with what you read?
    Good question.I Thank God our church has a revelation.Most church’s sound and look Catholic all they need is the bishop to bless the breed and wine every Sunday.they wear crosses and still praying in the tittles father son holy ghost.Idols all over the church.I am Christian I have One God he is the Father he is the Son and he is the Holy ghost.One Lord One Faith One Baptism.I Love Jesus sooo Much!!!!!I seen his miracles.

  22. I agree, we have one God ( not three ) and like you said he is the father, son and Holy Spirit. This is what Johnny believes also. I think Armando may need to further explain himself. We do NO believes in Gods, but one GOD, the Father, Son, Holy Ghost. There in ONE, just as you stated above.

  23. Linda,

    I am a Christian, too. I have one God: Father, Son and Holy Ghost, too. One Lord, one faith, baptism: check, check, check. I love Jesus, too (although if you followed me around 24 hours a day you might not always believe it). I’ve seen His miracles, too.

    In your opinion, are we brother and sister in Christ?

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