Norm’s Wednesday Night Broadcast (11/14/07)

I’m not going to spend a whole lot of time on Norm’s show tonight, except to counter the absolutely ridiculous notion that wine in the New Testament is only referring to grape juice; that Jesus turned the water into grape juice at the wedding feast in John 2; and that the Lord’s Supper was with grape juice because the Jews couldn’t drink wine on passover.

1) “oy-nos” means WINE. Not grape juice, but wine. We know that because the word is used where people are warned not to drink to excess and get drunk from it. No such warning would be necessary if it were grape juice.

“And be not drunk with wine [oy-nos], wherein is excess” (Ephesians 5:18 KJV)

“Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine [oy-nos]” (1 Timothy 3:8 KJV)

In the very same breath, Paul said to “keep thyself pure” and “use a little wine”:

“Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men’s sins: keep thyself pure. Drink no longer water, but use a little wine [oy-nos] for thy stomach’s sake and thine often infirmities.

2) During the passover feast, Jewish people drink four cups of wine. Not grape juice (although grape juice, being fruit of the vine, is permitted), but wine. This is a tradition that predates Jesus – because at that time, the Jews didn’t have any way to preserve grape juice – it had to ferment and become wine. So, of course it is reasonable to assume that Jesus was using wine for the Lord’s Supper.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/holidaya.html – this is a Jewish website that talks about the tradition of Passover, that the Jews use wine.

3) Norm said that 1 Cor 11:20 doesn’t refer to people getting drunk, but just being gluttonous with their drink? Please! The greek word for drunken is methyo, which doesn’t mean gluttonous. It means to be drunk!

Here is what one study said about the word “methyo“:

In Vines Expository Dictionary the first translation is – “to be drunk”, is used in John 2:10 in the Passive Voice, and is translated in the P.V.,”have drunk freely”; A.V. “have well drunk”. Vines then goes on to clarify the matter by again translating the greek root word “methyo” and defining it-“signifies to be drunk with wine”. It is used to indicate becoming intoxicated in Matt 24:49; Acts 2:15; 1 Cor 11:21; 1 Thess 5:7. The Passive Voice used above indicates that the men who were intoxicated (drunk) were becoming more so.

Looking up the greek root word in an Analytical Greek Lexicon, it means strong drink, to be intoxicated, be drunk. And in another Greek Lexicon it is defined as – to inebriate, make drunk, to be intoxicated.

http://barr-family.com/godsword/question_was_the_wine_at_canna_alcoholic_or_grape_juice.htm

Now, let me say this. I am not condoning drinking wine or alcohol to excess. I think Scripture is pretty clear about that. But I do think that when the Bible says wine, you can’t just twist it into grape juice because of your personal conviction, as Norm did tonight. Let’s call a glass of wine a glass of wine!

And his willingness to make Scripture say what he wants it say like he did with this subject does cause me concern (as did Norm’s “Thief on the Cross” theory the other night), because it calls into question the integrity of other things he teaches, when he takes such liberties with the Word as he did tonight.

More to come…

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10 thoughts on “Norm’s Wednesday Night Broadcast (11/14/07)

  1. Just found your blog and I am really enjoying it. I am a Church of Christ pastor minister and hope beyond hope that there is a sea-change going on in our denomination to be more ecumenical and inclusive.

    I’ll look forward to following your discussion.

  2. Ugh…I’m sorry you have been exposed to this crap. I am a minister in Churches of Christ and I must tell you we are all not like your local TV preachers. We’ve got problems, and we’ve got some really scary history, but we are overcoming our faults, becoming grace-oriented, and more and more eccumenical.

    The church where I am a pastor (and yes, I use that word), is a open-minded congregation. We are gender inclusive, a capella but often use instrumental music, accept any baptism centered on faith in Christ, and are actively involved with churches from other faith traditions.

    Of course, not every congregation in Churches of Christ are like us, but there are some out there and many more on the way.

    –Travis Stanley (www.plpark.org; http://www.travisstanley.net)

  3. I’m glad you two gentlemen wrote – because I am happy to point out that these folks on local TV here in the Martinsville/Henry County area don’t speak for all Church of Christ folks.

    Of course, they probably wear that as a badge of honor, and would undoubtedly say that you and your congregations were apostate.

    Please feel free to contribute to the discussions.

    -Nathan

  4. Just curious where these men are located…far as the church. I am seeing more turn to a grace centered belief and not law center and this is what we need here. I wish they could have someone set up a church of Christ here like this…

  5. Scott, I wish someone could send some men like you and Travis our way, so people here who desire to be in the church of Christ but also be in a group that are love centered and grace centered and not like the men here, who preach “its their way” only. Where do you preach??

  6. Actually, the word can have either meaning (intoxicated or simply filled with drink). For example, the Septuagint translation of Psalm 23:5 uses it for what we translate as “overflow.”

    Looking at the context (namely the parallel with hungry/full), it seems “filled with drink” is the more natural understanding over “intoxicated.”

  7. The translators of a good number of different Bible translations would disagree with you.

    http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/versions.pl?book=1Cr&chapter=11&verse=21&version=KJV#21

    And if you look at the Greek lexicon, it gives only two definitions:

    1) to be drunken

    2) metaph. of one who has shed blood or murdered profusely

    It doesn’t even give the choice of “filled with drink”.

    http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3184&Version=kjv

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