If you are interested in the discussions we’ve been raising about the teachings of Johnny, James, and Norm, then you might be interested in Al Maxey’s website, which contains some pretty good debates and discussions.
Category Archives: “What does the Bible say?”
A Knight’s Tale – Chris Knight Engages JR
After a few days of Johnny Robertson badgering Chris Knight on this blog regarding this post on Chris’s blog, Chris decided to take Johnny at his word and debate. He loaded up his video camera and drove down to the TV studio where “What Does the Bible Say?” is broadcast, and issued Johnny an impromptu challenge. You can read more about that incident here. Chris is going to post excerpts from that encounter on youtube.
I have to say, I am really surprised. I had pictured Johnny to be the living embodiment of 1 Peter 3:15, but it seems that he wasn’t ready to engage Chris – claiming that it was because his program already had an agenda from which he didn’t want to deviate.
This is exactly the thing we’ve discussed here before, that JR seems to have this interesting need for control, and if a situation presents itself out of his control, he’s apparently not interested. That’s one of the reasons I’ve been so surprised that he had actually been commenting on this blog, although every time he comes he tries to take control and lead the conversation where he wants it to go.
Well, I must say that Chris has impressed me mightily with his chutzpa, and we cheer him on for his not letting himself be bullied by JR. Bravo, Chris!
Sunday, June 1 – Prayer Day for Johnny, Norm and James
I’ve been feeling convicted recently about this blog, and what it could become. And what I don’t want it to become.
When the subjects of the blog are people who seem to revel in stirring things up and getting people riled up (regardless of what is motivating them to do this), then it is easy to find ourselves getting comfortably in a permanent defensive posture. Johnny Robertson’s visit this week just underlines how easily that can happen.
I don’t want this blog to be a place that Johnny, Norm and/or James can give to their supporters and say, “Look at how I am being treated! I must be doing something right if they are so upset at me!” Rather, I want it to be a place where the three men would see the love of Christ exhibited.
I would ask my regular commenters to consider the following Scripture passages:
A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another (John 13:34).
But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you (Luke 6:27-28).
Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse (Romans 12:14).
We work hard with our own hands. When we are cursed, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure it (1 Corinthians 4:12).
Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord. On the contrary: “If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good (Romans 12:17-21).
Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing (1 Peter 3:9).
Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness. Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble (1 John 2:9-10).
Now, I am not saying that any of the people who have been posting here about the three TV hosts have been acting improperly. However, I want this to be a place where Jesus’ name is honored, and I think one important way we honor Him is when we act like Him.
So, I invite you all to join me on Sunday, June 1 as I pray for Johnny Robertson, Norm Fields and James Oldfield. Some suggested things we can pray for them:
1. For the well-being of their families
2. For their health
3. For Godly wisdom as they attempt to lead the churches where they teach and preach
4. That Christ would dwell in their (and our) hearts through faith. And that they (and we), “being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge–that [they] may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.” Ephesians 3:17-19
Won’t you join me in praying for these men this Sunday?
Thanks,
Nathan
A Bit of Real-time Discussion
“faithful” quoted Matthew 11:16-19:
“But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows, and saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented. For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil. The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.”
“faithful” wrote:
“In these verses Jesus was saying his critics would never be satisfied. You all won’t be either. I don’t believe you’re interested in the truth , only hiding the gospel and getting as many people to go to hell with you as possible.”
“Answeringchurchofchrist” responded:
“Point of clarification. We are all interested in understanding God and the Truth. What exactly is Truth? Or, who, to be more exact?
“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” John 14:6
That’s what it all boils down to, my friend. Not the name on the sign in front of the place where you worship, not whether or not you use a piano in worship, not the frequency of your observation of the Lord’s Supper – but Jesus.
Now, as to our interest in hiding the gospel, we need to ask… what is “the gospel”?
It’s pretty easily found in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4:
“Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.”
Nobody here is trying to hide that Good News.
As to the part about going to hell, well, I put my trust in Jesus (Eph 1:13), and so I am counting on his work to keep me from that terrible place. I hope to help as many folks as possible to escape that fate as well.”
An interesting video from a former CofC person
Thanks to Katherine for the heads up on this video. Thoughts?
Denominations and the “churches of Christ”
If you are in a denomination, you are out of luck.
People in hyperconservative churches of Christ say that denominations are not in the Bible, and you can’t be saved in a church that is not in the Bible.
But here’s the problem… the only churches that are in the Bible are churches that existed in the Middle East 2000 years ago.
Martinsville Church of Christ, Danville Church of Christ, Reidsville Church of Christ… none of these churches existed during the NT times, because none of these communities existed 2000 years ago.
Practicing Faith like the 1st Century Church
“But we’re talking about churches that follow the teachings exactly as the church of 2000 years ago did,” the hyper-conservatives might say. “We do this, and no one else does.”
Let’s look at some of the commands from Scripture. Some are direct commands, others are found using the CofC principle of CENI – such as the non-written but inferred “command” that everyone must take the Lord’s Supper each “first day of the week” or be in sin.
1. Let the woman cut her hair if her head is uncovered. (1 Cor 11:6)
2. Let the woman wear a covering if cutting and shaving the hair be a shame. (1 Cor 11:6)
3. Let the speaker in tongues pray for the interpretation. (1 Cor. 14:13)
4. Let no more than 3 messages in tongues be given in one service. (1 Cor. 14:27)
5. Forbid not tongues (1 Cor. 14:39).
6. Destroy none with non-essentials (Romans 14:15; 1 Cor. 8:13).
7. Have faith before God for things not condemned in Scripture (Romans 14:22-23).
8. “All that believed were together, and had all things in common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.” (Acts 2:44-45)
And finally, an oft-mentioned but not any less accurate for it’s inclusion example…
9. Greet one another with a holy kiss. (Romans 16.16, I Corinthians 16.20, II Corinthians 13.12, I Thessalonians 5.26, I Peter 5.14)
Do the “churches of Christ” mentioned earlier obey all of these commands?
Why do I bring this up? I’m not using this to say that the hyperconservative churches of Christ are not truly following Christ. That’s not my call. I’m bringing this up to demonstrate that they are not acting just like the NT church.
Of course using Scripture as the model for church is the best idea.
You should understand something about where I’m coming from on this issue. I am a big proponent of churches being as much like the early church as possible, I have been for a while now. Regular readers here know that I am a Christian with a Presbyterian background, but I haven’t attended a Presbyterian church regularly for years. For the past five years I have been attending a house church, and I love feeling that kinship with my first century brothers and sisters.
But I don’t find any evidence in Scripture that this is a litmus test that God uses through the ages to save people. We are not saved because of the name or the size of the church we attend – we are saved because of the grace and mercy of God the Father found in the work of Jesus Christ on the cross, and our response to that work, leading to the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Ephesians 2:8-9, Galatians 3:2) It’s HIS work, not ours.
What about the others?
But what about the others who are trying to do the same thing as our friends in the “churches of Christ”? Are they up the creek without a paddle?
Remember Rick’s affirmations from a few days ago? It seems like the church he attends is trying very hard to follow the same road taken by believers in the early church. Here are a couple of other churches that I found with a cursory internet search that seem to be attempting to do the same thing, but don’t seem to be claiming to be the only ones who are saved:
New Frontiers family of churches
Would our hypercon friends consider the people in these churches to be saved? If so, why? If not, why not?
Who does the saving? (whew!)
This is one of those situations (and there are many) where I am so relieved and grateful that the decision of who is saved and who is not saved does not rest on the shoulders of our hyper-conservative friends, or any other people from any other doctrinal background.
Thankfully, the salvation issue decisions rests on the shoulders of our just and merciful God. (Exodus 34:6–7, Rom. 3:23-25)
And all God’s people said…
Televised Ministry Sensationalism – It Could Happen to You!
Televised ministry sensationalism… this is the hyperconservative Church of Christ answer to Jerry Springer or the sensationalist episodes of Dateline NBC.
I was watching a televised ministry sensationalist clip on youtube recently where Johnny Robertson and a cameraman went after Pastor Jackie Poe, of The Church at Mercy Crossing in Martinsville, Virginia. Pastor Poe was caught off guard that day, and so made several mistakes in the way he responded to Mr. Robertson, which is understandable when you are the subject of an ambush.
I would like to detail the mistakes made, and then make a list of several different ways you can respond if you are ever the subject of one of a televised ministry senstationalist impromptu “interview”.
First, the clip in question:
Now, from watching the clip, this is what I see. It appears that Pastor Poe has just arrived to the Church at Mercy Crossing (on a Saturday morning?), and Mr. Robertson (in his registered trademark cowboy hat) and cameraman with an apparently turned off camera (notice how it is held often at a lower level, as if to give the appearance that it is not on? – and then Pastor Poe realizes that it is, in fact, on, and that’s when the clip ends) are there waiting for him. Pastor Poe makes his way into the church.
edit: A commenter named “Jo” said the following about the context of this clip, which is apparently told on a DVD, but not on the youtube site:
“I believe the DVDs stated that Mr. Poe and crew were working at the church and it was Mr. Robertson’s good fortune to come at that time.”
Now back to our regularly scheduled post.
Let’s look at some of the mistakes Pastor Poe made in this clip.
Mistake #1:
Telling the Hypercon to Leave the Property. This is exactly what a televised ministry sensationalist with a camera wants you to do. This makes it look like he is being unfairly treated, and if he is a hypercon “Church of Christ” person, it will give him a prime example of the “persecution” he is undergoing in the pursuit of his “missionary work” in your area. And do understand that he will use the clip in such a way – probably in large Churches of Christ out in Texas.
Mistake #2
Insulting the Hypercon. In the clip, Pastor Poe is obviously frustrated by Mr. Robertson. His first attempt to vent that frustration is the not-so-subtle barb about “attraction”. This was Pastor Poe’s flesh talking here, and insulting is to be avoided at all costs, because this sort of thing will be played and replayed, and while it may bring you a certain amount of instant satisfaction, in the long run it will not help your cause.
Mistake #3
Escaping. Pastor Poe is working to get into his building during the clip, and again, while it is understandable, it just makes the hypercon look like he is the one in control. You don’t want to give him the satisfaction. Of course, if you stop to talk to him, you will run the risk of being trapped. So, this one is not an easy call. Look down below for a list of possible things you can do to help pass the time if you do stop.
Mistake #4
Demanding the Camera be Turned Off. Towards the end of this clip Pastor Poe realizes that sneaky cameraman is, in fact, already filming, and demands that the camera be turned off. Again, this is understandable, but it doesn’t help him come off well.
So, while Pastor Poe did the best he could under the circumstances, he could have done better.
Before I get into my thoughts on what one should do in an encounter with televised ministry sensationalists from a hypercon “Church of Christ”, let me mention some other things that did not happen on this clip, but have happened before, and are big mistakes in this situation.
1) Threats. This is the big no-no. Don’t let some big beefy deacon or elder come and suggest that the interview be completed “out back”. This just doesn’t help you or your position at all, and it will be played and replayed.
2) Agreeing to come on air and debate and then not showing up. Just tell him you aren’t interested. Why would anyone who has watched any of their “debates” want to participate? Did anyone watch that Armando Deloa debacle? They’ll fuss about the fact that you are a coward for a couple of weeks, but ultimately they’ll settle down and move on to someone else.
3) Allowing yourself to be put on the defensive. These men are well-informed, but there’s a difference between being well-informed and being right. Look at suggestion #3 below. Know your stuff – and know theirs. You can find the Achilles heel if you are persistent.
Back to our clip… what could Pastor Poe have done differently? What could you do if they show up at the church you attend sometime? Well, here are some ideas.
Suggestion #1
Sing! Hypercon CofC folks, when arguing the subject of musical instruments in worship, love to quote Ephesians 5:19, Colossians 3:16, James 5:13. So, the simplest thing you can do when you see them coming, is just break out into song. I know, I know, it sounds like “Hairspray”, but what else could they do? If they come at you with a camera and you just begin singing “On Christ the Solid Rock I Stand” (six verses – a good long one), what else can they do but join in? It could turn into a revival.
Of course, if you have a long, long walk, you could sing “In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida” by Iron Butterfly. It’s not a Christian song, but it’s 17 minutes long, and has a great drum solo in the middle. You can do it on the hood of your car. The point is – sing!
In fact, you could even have this arranged with members of your congregation. If the ambush happens, as it did recently at Rick’s church, you could have a nonverbal cue that four members are to come up and begin singing an acapella song barbershop style. They should have a few songs in their repertoire, however. Even better, teach the whole church to do it – so that everyone breaks into song.
If they are really bad singers, it might cause the hypercon televised ministry sensationalists to flee.
Suggestion #2
Start Quoting Scripture.
For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. Hebrews 4:12
Pastor Poe started to do this, talking about knowing a tree by it’s fruit, but he wasn’t prepared to take it far enough. The best thing for a potential interviewee to do is to memorize a book of the NT and just start quoting it from memory as soon as the ambush begins. Imagine that clip if Pastor Poe had been quoting the book of Romans the entire time, as if in conversation? If you don’t have Scripture memorized, just have a copy of the Word handy and just start reading aloud. Just don’t allow the hypercon “Church of Christ” televised ministry sensationalist to interrupt if you happen upon one of their favorite passages (Romans 16:16 or Acts 2:38, for example).
Suggestion #3
Know their doctrine, too. Now, I know most pastors are too busy actually ministering to people to spend time understanding the limited interpretation of the hypercon Churches of Christ – but a little knowledge could go a long way. And trust me – they know your doctrine, and will bring up the most obscure reference to try and paint you into a corner. But they have their own corners – investigate and learn! There are many conversations on this blog which could help – and follow the links in the blogroll, too.
Suggestion #4
Speak nothing but pig latin. These men are so opposed to the idea of speaking in tongues, that it might just cause them to leave just to avoid the appearance of evil.
Just imagine:
Hypercon: Excuse me, Pastor. My name is Billy Bob Bisedell, and I host a program on Star 39.
Pastor: Esyay, Iyay owknay ouyay. Our’eyay hattay uygay hattay oesday ecretsay ameracay mbushesayay.
Hypercon: Er – right. Now, I wanted to ask you where you get the Scriptural authority to have a praise band.
Pastor: Ren’tyay heytay reatgay? Hosetay idskay eallyray ovelay hetay ordLay.
Hypercon: Excuse me, but are you speaking in tongues?
Pastor: Ohnay. T’siyay igpay atinlay.
Hypercon: Um… we’ve got to go.
Pastor: Oodbyegay! Omecay gainayay ealray oonsay!
The point would be to keep it up the entire time, but answer the questions seriously.
****
Okay, that last one was tongue in cheek, but you get the picture.
Now, I do want to differentiate something here – if you have an informal conversation with a hyperconservative “Church of Christ” person – that is different. If you are a pastor, you might want to go ahead and record the conversation yourself, but don’t worry about singing. Just relax and make sure that you know your stuff. However, should they show up at the church where you minister on a Sunday evening, be prepared.
Finally, if you remember nothing else in this post, remember this:
If one of the hyperconservative TV hosts show up at the church you attend or where you preach – assume that a camera or microphone is involved. If a camera is visible but appears to be turned off, assume that it is on, but being held down to make it appear turned off. If you make this assumption, you won’t be as likely to be burned later.
Any other suggestions of ways to frustrate the hypercon “Church of Christ” attempts at televised ministry sensationalism? But remember – keep it civil. No suggestions that involve violence, crudeness or rudeness, please.
Johnny’s Last Post
Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man. Colossians 4:6
Since this blog is dedicated to discussing the teachings of Church of Christ TV personalities Johnny Robertson, Norm Fields and James Oldfield, I made the editorial decision to take the following comment made by Mr. Robertson, which was left on my blog earlier today (and has since slipped off the comment column) and make it into a regular posting so that latecomers won’t miss it.
If you’d like to see the original post and some of the responses that followed (including two from people who would agree doctrinally with Mr. Robertson, but who were pretty disappointed in his comments), you can look here.
Meanwhile, here is the apparent last post to this blog from Johnny Robertson:
“Here is my last post for you guys
Lee wants to fight
Randy wants a drink
Kattie and kathline are so awesomely cut from the same cloth
and Rick and Nathan …that makes what 6 on this blog
Now you may say, “Johnny you are wrong , you don’t know us and you shouldnt say all that!”
Ok little children Matt 11:16
Jesus said on several occasions that if you want to follow him (really be like him) sell all you have and follow him (Mat 8 fox have holes birds nest)
the reason the folks that meet at 823 Starling cannot be bothered by all this child play is they have seen me do this . I moved here with a rocking chair (from the Marshall Islands)and stayed 5 years and sold all i had again and went to the “slum of slums” (Ebeye atoll) and left all the TV and “Lime Light” so I could reach out to the most untouchables in the world. Most likely I will go back after I have trained some men to keep up the “good fight” against all you false teachers.
Now you see how pointless it is for you all to think you will sway folks in the Martinsville congregation. What do you have as fruit?
They dont even know who you are and that is how Satan works (Eph 5:12)
They know me and so do countless others.
People in sound churches who support me know that I had a thriving business before I gave it all up and decided to be trained to answer all the false religions. Oh and and yes thanks to false churches they know I was in jail too. Boy that hurt you all
more than me, bringing up a saved persons past. That was really telling to anyone thinking of becoming a Baptist KattieAnd one last thing I have a son who is named Caleb! What do you suppose Caleb was famous for “little children (all six of you)? A SPY!
I am so thankful my position does not so destroy reason that I end up failing to appreciate two great characters in the Bible TWO SPIES
When you dont have anything to hide spies are not really hurting you now are they.
Rahab got into the line of Christ by helping spies who were determined to overthrow the enemy
You all are enemies of the true church of Christ (Philp 3:18 ) and when you can finally find someone convicted enough to come out of the dark and meet us as other Baptist have tried to do (AC Smith B Edwards Shirley Phelps Johnny Bullins K Johnson D Parker) we will speak again, until then Happy fighting Rick and Lee. Pentecostals and baptis have never gotten along ya know all that jibberish you call tongues huh Rick… Be a man Rick Help your daddy Kattie
Dont bother responding ya’ll Im not coming back it is toooo dark in here for me
johnny (aka Jim Jones)”
Please feel free to post thoughts and comments, but remember to be civil. Even though Johnny’s Last Post pretty much was not civil. Remember Colossians 4:6!
The Scriptural Relationship between Faith, Belief and Salvation
Said to me by another hyperconservative Church of Christ preacher on a different internet site:
“I have no problem saying that according to the Scriptures you are not a Christian and you are in the wrong church.”
My response:
You won’t be the first hypercon to tell me that. I’ve also been told that by Muslims; JWs; and Mormons and others who believe we have to work for our salvation. And thankfully, I don’t receive my confidence in my standing before God from any of you – I receive my confidence from the Word.
John 3:14-18
“Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.(v. 17) For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.”
John 1:12-13
“Yet to all who received Him [Christ], to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God – children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God [lit. from above = born again]”
John 3:36
“Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life,[but] whoever refuses to believe in] the Son will not see life for God’s wrath remains on Him.”
John 5:24
“I tell you the truth, whoever hears My word and believes Him Who sent Me has eternal life and will not be condemned; He has crossed over from death to life.”
John 6:27-29
“[Jesus said]’Do not work for food that spoil, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On Him God the Father has placed His seal of approval.’
Then they asked Him,’What must we do to do the works God requires?’ Jesus answered,’The work of God is this: to believe in the One He has sent.’ ”
John 6:47
“I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.”
John 11:25-26
“Jesus said to her,’I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe in this?”
Acts 10:43
“All the prophets testify about him [Christ] that everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins through His name.”
Acts 13:38-39
“Therefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. Through Him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the Law of Moses.”
Romans 1:16
“I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes, first for the Jew and then for the Gentile.”
Romans 3:22-26
“This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
God presented Him as a sacrifice of atonement through faith [in that atonement which was] in His blood. So as to be just and the One Who justifies those who have faith in Jesus”
Romans 4:1-5
“What shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter?
If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about – but not before God.
What does the Scripture say?’Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness. Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift but as an obligation.
However, to the man who does not work but trusts God Who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.”
Romans 5:1
“Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand.”
Romans 10:11-14
“As the Scripture says,’Anyone who trusts in Him will never be put to shame.’ For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile – the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on Him, for,’Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’
How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in?”
Ephesians 1:13-14
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in Him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession – the praise of His glory.”
Eph 2:8-9
“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it it the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast.”
1 John 5:9-13
“We accept man’s testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which He has given about His Son. Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made Him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about His Son.
Galatians 3:6-9, 14
“Consider Abraham:’He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness. Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham:’All nations will be blessed through you.’
So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit”
2 Thessalonians 2:13
“But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.”
2 Timothy 1:9
“Who has saved us and called us to a holy life – not because if anything we have done but because of His own purpose and grace.”
Galatians 3:22
“But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.” Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the Law, locked up until faith should be revealed.
So the Law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the Law. You are all sons of God through faith in Christ, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.”
Philippians 3:9
“And be found in Him,[Christ] not having a righteousness of my own that comes from law but that which is through faith in Christ – the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith.”
1 Pet 1:3-5
“Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In His great mercy He has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade – kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.”
As I said, I receive my confidence in my standing before God from His Word.
Norm and Mark visit a Baptist Church
I just received this message from (I assume) the pastor of Vandola Baptist in Danville. It is a first hand testimony of what happens when one of our three hosts pays your church a visit.
“Our church, Vandola Baptist in Danville, was visited by Norm Fields and Mark McMinnis on Wednedsay, April 16. It just so happened that this particular night was the last night of our Spring Revival with Dr. Ron Crawford, a former pastor and current President of the Baptist Theological Seminary at Richmond. As you would expect there was a “discussion” with Fields and McMinnis after the service.
Let me share with you that from the very beginning of our worship service these two representatives of the churches of Christ displayed nothing less than utter contempt for our worship and our membership. We began the service with a responsive reading that was printed in our worship bulletin. The congregation stood for the responsive reading which was followed by a hymn (accompanied by musical instruments of course). Fields and McMinnis remained seated throughout all of this as well as at the conclusion of the service when we stood and sang an invitational hymn. I, by the way, went to the pew where they were seated toward the back of the sanctuary where I greeted them and sat with them during the preaching of the message by our guest speaker. Norm diligently wrote notes and I assume points of contention throughout the message.
As they left from the sanctuary, Norm asked Dr. Crawford if he could talk with him to inquire about some of the things he had said during the message. Dr. Crawford informed Norm that he was leaving to go back to Richmond as soon as he finished greeting folks but that he would consent to give him a few moments. Norm had already began questioned Dr. Crawford on the outside porch when I walked up. I interrupted them and asked Norm directly if he was using any audio or video devices to record the conversation and he responded that he was unable to bring either because of some malfunction with his equipment. He asked me if I was using such and I replied that I was not and if I had been I would have told him in advance that I was and that he should do the same whenever he used recording devices. (Should anyone see or hear a recording of this discussion that I am describing on any of the CoC broadcasts be sure to call on air and ask if deliberate lying is a teaching of Scripture.)
At any rate, it didn’t take long for Dr. Crawford to detect Norm’s attempt to haggle over perceived syntax errors and so Dr. Crawford dismissed him and said he would speak no further with him. Norm, of course, began his spill about “Crawford’s refusal to speak the truth of God”. Unfortunately, at this point, one of our not so diplomatic members spoke out of turn and said that he would be glad to meet Norm out back to take care of his questions to which Norm ask if the man was threatening him. I injected that no one was going to threaten him (I did notice that Norm left from the porch area where we were rather quickly). I attempted to explain to Norm that one of the reasons folks became so upset with them was certainly because of their blatant display of contempt in our worship service. I asked Norm why he had refused to stand and/or participate in our worship to which he responded that he could not (spoken with the perceived implication that he could not because our service was not true worship approved of God). As a result I asked Norm if that was the case, then why did he come then to our worship service knowing that he “could not” out of his pure conscience participate. He said he came to learn and to give us an opportunity to explain why we did what we did and what we believed. I refuted that notion with the comment that he already knew what Baptist taught, how Baptist worshipped and what Baptist believed and that the only reason he was there was to continue to show his disdain for Baptist people as he did each week on his broadcast program. With that we parted ways.
Can’t wait to see how this is presented on the CoC local broadcast. Should Norm be reading this blog, let me apologize to him for any perceived rude behavior on the part of any of our folks. We are not perfect people and there are still those who become easily angered and/or offended in spirited debate especially when agitated by those who know which buttons to push.”
Answering the Church of Christ 