Image from here.
I’m closing the comments on the old “Church of Christ Doctrine” page, because it has a ridiculous number of comments and takes a while to load if you don’t have a fast connection, or so I’ve been told.
So, this will be the new place to discuss doctrinal issues. I’m not going to give it a big prelude, since the old page went off original topic a long time ago. So, anything you would want to write over there, go ahead and write here.
Robertson seems to be putting great store in these books (which he relishes boasting that he bought “at great price”).
What I find interesting is that he is citing that churches were wholesale abandoning their original appelations for “Church of Christ”. But in fact, that could have meant just about anything at the time. During the Restoration movement, every new church founding drive was calling itself “Church of Christ”.
Even the nascent Mormons were calling themselves “Church of Christ” for the first several years (incidentally, the same period of time that Robertson is adhering to in his “evidence”). And we also know that the number of Mormon converts during this time were significantly more than those of any Christians adhering to the Stone-Campbell philosophy at the same time.
Am I suggesting that these “Virginia Baptists” became Mormons? Not at all.
Just pointing out once again the absurdity of what Robertson and his followers are really obsessed with: what the name says on the church sign.
Now, Randy…
“But, there are patterns clearly in the bible and denying them would be denying God.”
That’s what the Pharisees argued also. Then Jesus came along and said that the patterns weren’t all that important. So they had to kill Him for it.
Think about it: from ten commandments there somehow came hundreds of meaningless, even silly other “commandments” that the preachers of the day demanded must be followed in order to please God.
How are those Pharisees any different from “preachers” we could easily name who insist that to have musical instruments in a church means that one is damned to Hell?
Once again, you are forgetting the grace of God, and that it is sufficient.
“Chris may be willing. I would like us to meet without cameras and recording devices and discuss thee matters.”
Well I hate to say it, but that disqualifies the situation already since everyone here knows fully well that Robertson, Oldfield etc. will insist on having cameras present. Even if they agree to no cameras, they will have them hidden somewhere… and they will claim that it’s not “deceit” at all but instead using it to gather “evidence” to expose those of “false doctrines”.
We know their game. They have demonstrated that they are neither decent or honorable men.
And so far, no one has tried to answer the two questions I have posed here in the past few days…
Why are Johnny Robertson, James Oldfield and their followers in a church that is not in the Bible?
If all other doctrines are “false”, then why should anyone believe that the “Church of Christ” is true?!?
Let me rephrase that last one another way: what evidence has the local group calling itself “Church of Christ” given that proves beyond all doubt that it has a monopoly on “truth”?
You can’t keep knocking others religion, if your own has nothing to show for itself.
Chris said: “That’s what the Pharisees argued also. Then Jesus came along and said that the patterns weren’t all that important. So they had to kill Him for it.”
- The Pharisees added 600+ requirements to written scripture. Nobody is referring to adding patterns…
Do you agree that the NT has patterns for the church? Patterns that the church should mirror?
Chris, or any other brave souls on here. I have a suggestion. Why not we all meet with Johnny in person and talk about these things.
I am sure Nathan will not wont this, seeing he hasnt even told his real name. Chris may be willing. I would like us to meet without cameras and recording devices and discuss thee matters.
Anyone else game? How about you Truth? I doubt you will show either. WIL, you seem to have some insight that would be worth your time and ours. Consider meeting with us…Lee, how about you?
I am asking us all “local viewers” to come from behind this site and meet in person and discuss some of these things. You pick the topic guys and lets see if Johnny will meet us somewhere…maybe over lunch or something when he has time.
So, who is game??? Any real players here? Or just bench warmers?
In 2Th 2:15, the Thessalonian church was instructed to “stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.” The Thessalonians were specifically commanded to follow, to hold to, the traditions of the apostles, whether received by mouth or by letter (whether oral or written). The apostles are not here to tell us in person, by word of “mouth”, what to do. However, we do have their “written” directions, right?
Chris, we could meet on Tuesdays rather than on Sunday, the Lord’s Day. Maybe, we can just meet monthly, rather than weekly (this will be more to the liking of the modern generation, which dislikes commitment).
Heck, why even have leaders at all Chris (no pastors, no elders, no deacons) since no where in Scripture are we directly commanded to have any – per your understanding.
Heck, we could have absolutely no form of church government whatsoever; ours will be rule by anarchy (every man can just do what is right in his own eyes in fulfillment of Jdg 21:25). No particular form of government is commanded…or is it, Chris?
We can even have the Lord’s Supper every ten years or so (we wouldn’t want it to become too common and lose its significance).
Since the NT does not “specifically” prohibit it, we can swell our membership ranks by baptizing infants or the deceased (1Co 15:29).
You stated, Jesus doesn’t like patterns and things. Good thing Noah didn’t build the Ark with this sort of thinking.
Please note, that I am not advocating legalism, but obedience from love. Nobody is suggesting we can earn grace and/or forgiveness. But, it is pretty obvious that patterns and standards written in scripture should mirror those who profess to be saved.
Johnny, I do have a question for you, if you don’t mind answering here. If not, please email me your reply. ( Randy )
When the church of Christ ( conservatives branch ) says we are to be of the same mind – speak the same things, are you saying that we must all reach perfect understanding and practice of every doctrine of scripture before we die, or else be damned?
Why the hyperbole? Nobody is advocating spiritual anarchy. The difficulty I have is when certain people say “my way or the highway to hell“.
Last time I checked, it was Moses that came down the mountain holding the tablets of God. Not any of our local church of Christ leaders.
Which brings me to the question you asked Mr. Robertson. I will be interested to hear his answer to that question. But I would just add – who gets to decide who has reached this “perfect understanding”?
I also understand your frustration with those who seem to say “my way or the highway to hell.” This is why I ask Johnny the question. If they mean by “my way or the highway to hell.” as a set of man-made rules that each adhere to, then we have a major problem. If they mean by this that the church should mirror certain patterns, then I have further questions.
Not only who gets to decide who has reached perfect understanding, but does the bible say one must reach doctrinal perfection or be lost?
Paul called the Corinthians brothers despite their flaws, so should I not imitate Paul as he imitates Christ?
Obviously each person learns at different levels, so this would seem to hinge salvation upon education, which would exclude the unlearned and uneducated. But, the flip side, one must understand that Jesus come in the flesh to save them from their sins, and one must put faith in His work.
Clearly, we agree that there are patterns in the New Testament, right? My question is, what if someone willfully rebel against clear patterns? Again, what seems clear to some may not be to others. For years, I never understood the need for partaking each Sunday, the Lords Supper. I do now, and think there is good theological grounds for doing so. But, should I tell another person that he is lost for not reaching my supposed level of understanding, Could I not even be wrong? I don’t think I am, but I could be.
Also, when has one reached spiritual anarchy? Who decides this, Nathan? What you deem as anarchy might not be to our JW friends or our Latter Day Saints. Is it our way or the highway with our JW’s? Who gets to decided who has reached spiritual anarchy?
Chris, must every scripture on any subject be in complete harmony with all other scriptures, even examples?
I have yet to see anything that would lead me to believe that Johnny has any ability to alter his thought pattern and actions. So as it stands I would not meet simply because I do not want the phone calls that record my wife or my kids or people showing at the door with a camera slung over the their arm to try and hide the fact that it is on. It is a waste of my time, though I am sure it would make for good TV ratings!
When he apologizes to everyone he has recorded in secret to prove he is repentant for this actions, and is willing to recognize others as brothers, and honor his father for being his father thus forgiving him for his past transgressions then I will meet with him gladly, until then I choose the David method of dealing with Saul! If he wants the debate it is here and he can have it with us, there is nothing stopping him!
If I wanted to be watched by the secret police I would move to China and become a communist.
As long as the CoC hold to the notion of being the direct decedents of the “true church” and that all others are false teachers they will never be able to alter their beliefs because to do so would cost them their salvation since they would also be false teachers per their mindset! Based on what I have seen so far I believe that is what they are taught to make sure they do not alter what they believe. Thus with that “truth”, to them at least, to meet would only be to see if they can convince others of their beliefs.
A perfect example of this is the Thief on the Cross, we started with him being under the Old Covenant, the Vail being torn at the moment of Jesus death is ignored by them because it is what they were taught. So they themselves hold to a man made doctrine even though the Bible makes it clear!
As for adding requirements Randy, the use of Ezra 10 that deals with racial and religious purity as an example of putting away wives and children in the New Testament. Both the reasons for why they did this are nullified in the New Testament. Race is no longer an issue because we are all equals per God, and religion is also a non-issue since Paul suggests a believer stay with a non-believer. Do they teach a believer must leave a non-believer? NO! they do not teach that yet that is exactly why the Jews did what they did in Ezra 10!
What did the early church do and why did they do it?
What is the history of the church’s worship, and what is the theology that grounded that worship?
If the early church sang a cappella, did they do so for a theological reason?
Btw, not am I convinced that the early church partook the Lords Supper each Sunday, I am also persuaded by much study, that they did not play musical instruments in worship, and perhaps for theological reasons.
Paul seems to purposely state “where” melody should be ( the heart ), and it wasn’t upon the harp like temple worship.
Perhaps the early church desired Christ as their sacrifice, not the animals of the temple worship. Maybe they even dropped incense as prayer offerings and prayed to God through Jesus their mediator. Maybe they even dropped musical instruments that were associated with pagan and temple worship.
For 1000 years the early church sang only, why? Seems to me, they wanted to drop worship connected with temple worship.
We are the temple now, no need for anti-types.
I understand your position far as the thief on the cross and agree with you regarding the Vail being torn at the moment of Jesus death. My point is, the thief was told “this day you will be with me…” At that “time” they both were under the Old Covenant. Jesus was still alive “when” he told the thief this day you will be with me…
This same Jesus also commissioned baptism when the gospel would be preached. What Gospel? The good news about His death for their sins and His resurrection to save them.
for anyone interested in reading an approach to finding the truth about how Baptist come up with their identity, please read the following.
http://www.geocities.com/prbryan.geo/bx/baptists.htm
It seems to me, that the early church desired to distance itself from temple worship.
No more animal sacrifices offered in worship; no more prayers of incense offered in worship; no more music offered in worship. We are now the temple of God and our sacrifice is Jesus; our prayers to God through Him; our voices – the melody we make in our hearts.
We no longer need the temple of the Old, for we are the temple of God.
For some reason, the early church done away with music, and it seems to me, they done so, because they realized that they were the music offered to God. No wonder Paul said sing and make the “melody in your heart”….
I believe the church fell away from what the pattern was and now we have “anarchy” on some levels.
Once the piano was allowed, the door opened for anything and everything. We now have heavy metal rock that is called Christian music and you cant tell it from the worlds music. Much of it is written in such a way where it can be played as both Christian and secular.
if you did read the above post
you will see that it is very dishonest for Baptist to claim everyone in the water to be Baptist.
To demonstrate my point , all who have watched my shows lately know I am back in correspondence with Brian Edwards in Danville.
He told me about 3 weeks ago that “all the churches that left Baptist Assoc. in 1829 era were not really Baptist”
He told me a week earlier, the point of being Independent is you can do anything you want to and still be able to put a sign out front that says Baptist.
Then we have the practice of Robert Semple of 1700s saying that churches of Christ were Baptist in order to bring the numbers up!
Then all the Baptist historians claiming everyone in 1600 England he got in the water and said they were a believe is now a Baptist.
which is it
On April 20, 2009 at 5:35 am churchesofchrist Said:
Chris, or any other brave souls on here. I have a suggestion. Why not we all meet with Johnny in person and talk about these things.
I am sure Nathan will not wont this, seeing he hasnt even told his real name. Chris may be willing. I would like us to meet without cameras and recording devices and discuss thee matters.
wow!
I know who nathan is btw.
I told yo all some time back I had a study with Nathan and wife at mickey Ds
He couldnt answer me then so nothing has changed
WIL said
I have yet to see anything that would lead me to believe that Johnny has any ability to alter his thought pattern and actions. So as it stands I would not meet simply because I do not want the phone calls that record my wife or my kids or people showing at the door with a camera slung over the their arm to try and hide the fact that it is on. It is a waste of my time, though I am sure it would make for good TV ratings!
is that a no?
most of the stuff slung out on this site would be disowned by the pastors where these folk go
they have manuals that have to be adhered to. The confessions etc
why play that
the church of Christ is the only one who says
1Ti 1:3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,
Chris does not believe in any doctrine so I dont know why he is even in this
he claimed above that the mormons out numbered the adherents to the teachings of the “reformers”
where is his proof
Daividson Presbyterian Historian of Ken. says 150,000 in 17 years
Torbet say 9580 in 2 years 1829-31
Gates moans of the losses of the “firm”
and tells of whole associations and half the churches in Ken
any proof Chris
you throw out un-documented stuff
maybe u would like to borrow my books
I spend money on things that matter and I am trying to answer you all , not boast
when I said I came to the “film shootoff” with enough tape and you didnt I was not boasting I was answering you on “I am a great producer” and now I am showing you are no historian, and chris u have never told us the countries over seas u traveled in??? remember I have tape that is not secret that u dont have.
even though YOU said your professor said you were head and shoulders above all else.
who boast?
not to mention the PHDs that wrote their dissertation on the subject trying to figure out the phenomenon of losses they experienced
http://libweb.kbtus.ac.kr/umi/3074946.pdf
Nathan, seeing Johnny met with you before, and I never seen any footage on TV, maybe we could all meet somewhere in a public setting and discuss some of these things. I honestly don’t see why we can not do this. Walkinginlove, if Johnny didn’t have any recording devices, would you be willing to have a bible study on some of these issues? Truth, how about you? Chris, how about you?
RBC Howell president of the SBC mention 3 things that hit baptist in 1820s predistinationism &
“crushed and scatrtered by the reformation of Mr Campbell” & finally Landmarkism
where is Mormon chris?
see pg 161 of above dissertation
also David E Harrell says Baptist Assoc. in Middle TN “Concord”
went from 49 to 11 churches because Mormons? no!
the teachings of the Lord’s people on Baptism For The Remission Of Sins
Chris, what doctrines did the church in the bible follow? You are a self proclaimed researcher – did they use music in worship? If not, when and who started this teaching?
Johnny, I do have a question for you, if you don’t mind answering here. If not, please email me your reply. ( Randy )
When the church of Christ ( conservatives branch ) says we are to be of the same mind – speak the same things, are you saying that we must all reach perfect understanding and practice of every doctrine of scripture before we die, or else be damned?
Randy says, “It seems to me, that the early church desired to distance itself from temple worship.”
I have a different reading of that, especially Acts. It seems the early church–especially the Jerusalem church–stayed pretty much in the same Jewish traditions as they did before Christ came. This would include not only the kosher food traditions but also worship at the Temple (Peter certainly goes there and gives speeches).
Even Paul, who spends much of his Christian life among Gentiles, is asked (ordered?) by James the brother of Jesus to go to the Temple and “show everyone that [he's] still a good Jew.”
Thus, Temple worship remains part and parcel of the ‘headquarters’ church in Jerusalem until the diaspora.
So, no, Randy; if we want to ‘restore’ 1st century Christianity, we’d be hard pressed to do so since we are not Jewish (for the most part). That said, since the 2nd century church becomes largely Gentile, we could shoot for that!
Mr. Robertson,
What proof do you have that your “Church of Christ” is in the Bible, apart from the name… which any person could put on any church sign?
If there is no evidence that your own church is described in the Bible, then why are you in a church that’s not in the Bible?
If all other doctrines are “false”, then how does anyone know that your “Church of Christ” is true?
The CoC is really big on Necessary Inference. So here’s something I don’t understand. We know they worshipped God with musical instruments in the OT. We know from the book of Rev. that they worship Him in heaven with musical instruments. Wouldn’t Necessary Inference say that we can infer from that information that worshipping God with musical instruments today is acceptable?
Actually, Randy…if you look at the history of the early church-they were being persecuted, thrown in jail, killed, etc-they met in homes, they were underground, they had special symbols and code words to identify themselves…so I doubt they would want to be drawing a ton of attention in their churches with a band! I don’t think it was because they found it evil or a sin. It boils down to being a preference-if it does become something people worship over God, then yes-it is bad-but that can go for anything we place in front of God. Do I love a cappella music? Yes. It is beautiful and something I have grown up on-I love the melodies and harmonies…but nowhere in the Bible does it say that you must sing that way or you will burn in hell-so that kind of condemnation and theology I cannot get on board with. Yay for the ones who choose to sing a cappella and yay for the ones who choose to have instruments-as long as God gets the glory! We cannot be the judge of people where God Himself has not condemned or judged. I realize you are not advocating this, Randy-but there are those who do…and I understand that there are many who could not worship with instruments without a guilty conscience-I am not advocating that, either-nor should we push the issue on each other…just that this does boil down to a preference, and in either case-God should be honored and worshiped.
I know you have an issue with the whole Christian music idea-but I have been very blessed by it, and have seen MANY kids very blessed by it where otherwise they would probably only listen to secular stuff. The difference is in the message and those behind the message-I know this is not the case for all of them, but the majority of them (some I know personally) have a real heart for getting the message of God out to the world and are using their gifts to do just that-humble and grateful for that opportunity. Just like anything else we do, we can let it be about us or be about God, we can get wrapped up in wanting to reach the world that it takes over-but for many, this is not the case- and God is using them to really touch hearts and reach out to people where they are with their music. We can’t reject that or judge all of those who are doing it…and if their music and message crosses over on a secular level-praise the Lord!!
On the animal sacrifices…once Jesus came and died and became THE ultimate sacrifice-there was no more need for anyone to bring animal sacrifices for that reason!
“And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.” ~Hebrews 10:10-11
Johnny wrote
“the church of Christ is the only one who says
1Ti 1:3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,”
I welcome Randy’s approach to having an honest conversation. However, if we are going to get serious, blind prooftexting like this will not help us.
-What is Paul warning Timothy about in this verse? What doctrines are being taught and by who? What does the rest of the passage add to this, or the entire epistle for that matter?
Johnny, how do you come to the conclusion that this verse is teaching that your denomination is the only group that stands against the false doctrines being taught?
“No wonder Paul said sing and make the “melody in your heart”…”
“15Be very careful, then, how you live—not as unwise but as wise, 16making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil. 17Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord’s will is. 18Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit. 19Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord, 20always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
-Where is the authority in this verse for congregational singing in a worship service setting? As a matter of fact, where is proper worship discussed anywhere in this Epistle?
If we are going to go all out let’s do so.
“any proof Chris”
- Well, obviously I am not Chris. However, I would love to see some type of historical evidence that the Coc existed somewhere before 18th cent. America (and this is a rather generous date). By existed I mean in a form we see today, and by proof I mean real primary sources, not a website some guy is in process of creating. No double talk, no name calling, no ranting, just a list of credible, scholarly texts that we can all read for ourselves.
Hey, DMH…
“the church of Christ is the only one who says
1Ti 1:3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,”
If Johnny Robertson’s “Church of Christ” is only supposed to abide at Ephesus, then how come Robertson and Oldfield aren’t hassling folks over in Turkey?!?
Obviously, they are not obeying scripture enough. Must not be the real church that Christ established after all.
(See how legalism can go, folks?)
This is why no one can trust Johnny Robertson enough to even consider attempting a serious in-person discussion with him.
It’s a comment that he posted tonight on the YouTube video where he harasses the Baptist church in Bay, Arkansas at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMXFlGOvEFE …
i already knew what it says and it is not talking about what you say. Paul is not using the word in this fashion. He does not say you can not use (cunning craftiness, subtilty in any sense
so we have to be bumbling unwise fool when we make our plans to defeat false teachers … excuse me Jesus passed through their midst (stealth) and went “secretly” Joh 7:4 and the HS allowed men to revealed “secrets” of others hearts. we are getting the secret dark areas out in open light shines in Jo 3:19
Robertson has admitted that he uses “cunning craftiness” in his confrontation with others that he does not agree with.
And what’s far more dangerous in my mind, is that he is seriously equating his own work with that of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.
So I ask once again: how is what he is doing helping the cause of Christ?
Any sane and reasonable person will tell you: it’s not helping the cause of Christ at all.
Johnny Robertson is demonstrating that he is not a man who can be trusted at all. Which is a very tragic thing to be said of anyone who is boasting that he is promoting Christ.
Instead, Johnny Robertson is just promoting… well, Johnny Robertson.
The most that he seems to sincerely care about is being a superstar in the very small world of the hyper-legalist “Church of Christ” cult.
This is why we are told to “lean not on your own understanding” but rather to seek God constantly fo what only He can provide. Because the temptation is there – and many like Robertson have fallen for it – to worship our own supposed “wisdom”.
Robertson’s is a cult of personality centered on himself, and his own rigid and merciless grasp of doctrine.
So let me ask again, because I will keep asking it as long as I possibly can…
If all other denominations are “false”, then what evidence is there at all that the “Church of Christ” is true?
Where is the evidence that the “Church of Christ” that Robertson and Oldfield represent is described in the Bible?
If no such evidence exists, then why are Robertson, Oldfield and their followers in a church that is not in the Bible?
On April 20, 2009 at 1:08 pm johnny Said:
WIL said
I have yet to see anything that would lead me to believe that Johnny has any ability to alter his thought pattern and actions. So as it stands I would not meet simply because I do not want the phone calls that record my wife or my kids or people showing at the door with a camera slung over the their arm to try and hide the fact that it is on. It is a waste of my time, though I am sure it would make for good TV ratings!
is that a no?
Please infer the meaning yourself!
Tell me how you view the parable of the unmerciful servant? How does it apply, and most of all how does it not apply when you broadcast past failings of others? What loophole do you use? The passage only applies to brothers perhaps? Then please explain how God no longer dislikes gossip?
And yes I realize you can now attempt to misdirect since I have brought up your past methods, but if you do, I will ask do you now consider your actions a sin and are repentant for them? If so then I will expect you to start working on that list of items above.
Also when your partners record people secretly while inviting them to Church do you expect they will come once they find out you are recording them? How many od those Mark recorded have come to visit? Or is it that because you have chosen to do this you are in fact hardening their heart to ever attend?
Do the CoC force interracial couples to divorce since you hold to Ezra 10?
Do the CoC force believers to leave non-believers as was done in Ezra 10?
Where is there an example of a second marriage being scrapped in the New Testament to hold to Ezra 10 as you teach?
When was the last time you tried to speak with Jason and bring him back into the faith? Did you ever do that at all? If not why not?
“Actually, Randy…if you look at the history of the early church-they were being persecuted, thrown in jail, killed, etc-they met in homes, they were underground, they had special symbols and code words to identify themselves…so I doubt they would want to be drawing a ton of attention in their churches with a band”
- I agree. I have read this too.
DMH, I have use your same arguments and they arent bad ones. I do, however, think Paul was addressing the church at Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus.
There are other verses that state sing, and history bares recird that they sang only for at least 600 years. Katherine may have a point – one I have considered myslef. I just am not convinced either way totally, but am more bent to believing they sang only for theological reasons. John Mark Hicks does a great job on addressing this very subject. Either way, I asm not ready to condemn anyone, seeing I am not God.
DHM, I understand your argumenst. Even used them a few times.
I agree, it is hard to prove that Paul was addressing corporate worship, when he addressed the saints which were at Ephesus, and the faithful in Christ Jesus. But, he seems to be giving some guidance or direction though…
I have read enough of your statements on other blogs to know you are well schooled on both sides of the track, as am I. I have examined each side and still on the fence on some points, but more persuaded that they abandoned music because they were told to sing and told “where” the melody should play – the heart.
Again, JMH does a great job pointing out many of the things we are discussing.
Is this a reason to break fellowship? If so, who desides? Once I make just cause to break fellowship, I open the door for other issues like Eldership in churches of Christ. Do all practice this as brother Wayne Jackson writes. Also, many disagree on marriage/divorce issues and remain in fellowship.
Also, many disagree on the doctrine or role of the Holy Spirit and remain in fellowship. Why do we pick music as the one thing we split over…could be like Phil Sanders stated over at http://graceconversation.com/
As I said, I am finished with all of this until I see true unity… this all makes no sense to me. I don’t mean true unity as in everyone always agreeing because that is impossible!
(Ephesians 5:19) When we sing praises to God, where are we to make the melody? “Speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord”
(Acts 16:25) While Paul and Silas were in jail, they prayed and sang hymns to God. “But at midnight, Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God”
(Matthew 26:30) What did Christ and His apostles do before they went to the Mount of Olives? “And when they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives”
Colossians 3:16, “Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord”
Hebrews 2:12, “In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You”
Hebrews 13:15, “Therefore by Him let us continually offer the sacrifice of praise to God, that is the fruit of our lips, giving thanks to His name”
James 5:13, “Is any among you suffering? Let him pray. Is any cheerful? Let him sing psalms
Please note that I am not arguing this from silence, but from specification. Singing is specified. I know the arguments quite well regarding why some think singing and playing is okay, seeing that playing doesn’t replace singing, singing still occurs.
But, are we willing to take this argument farther. Can I sing and dance? Singing still occurs. Can I sing and run up and down the church isles ( btw, I have seen this occur in Pentecostal churches)
How about solo music? I have seen some violinist and guitarist play some beautiful solos in church. Would not this replace singing?
Can I sing and do ANYTHING as long as the singing occurs? Are we sure this is the best way to argue or validate music in worship?
When Paul said make melody in your heart, was this a typo? Did he mean harp?
Paul clearly is placing the voice as the instrument which flows from the heart.
If he was addressing corporate worship or not, he was still addressing those who were saved – the saints, giving them guidance and direction.
And the direction he gave was for them to sing; and the melody was to be coming from within, not from without.
Is someone singing with music not singing anymore, I believe they are still singing.
Are we to pray with our hands lifted up, are we to pray with our hands folded, are we to pray with our eyes shut, are we to pray with our eyes open?
To say that the word psalms implies use of instruments because David used instruments to sing psalms, means everyone would have to be playing an instrument in the assembly to edify each other seeing Ephesian 5:19 says “speaking TO ONE ANOTHER in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord” and Colossians 3:16, “Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
Truth, I have seen people running through the church isles and even outside with their hands up in prayer…dancing and falling out everywhere while “the band plays and sings” ….guess this is okay too.
Where do you draw a line – is there even a line with you guys? This is why I said anarchy, because this mindset leads to spiritual anarchy. If you can worship as you see pleasing in your own eyes, then anything goes.
Please answer the questions Randy.
Is someone singing with music not singing anymore?
Are we to pray with our hands lifted up, are we to pray with our hands folded, are we to pray with our eyes shut, are we to pray with our eyes open?
Truth, can you make melody upon a piano? Sure. I know many people ( including me ) who can make melody upon instruments.
Can you make melody in your heart? Sure.
Which does Paul say to speak TO ONE ANOTHER? “psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord.”
Which does Paul say to make melody?
TO ONE ANOTHER means EVERYBODY do this. Not just a select few who can play instrumental music, but TO ONE ANOTHER – EVERYONE is to speak in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord.
If musical instruments were authorized, this means EVERYONE should be speaking TO ONE ANOTHER with musical instruments
Randy,
You’re bringing up some VERY valid points about limitations of acceptability that I want to dedicate more time to discussing when I get out of work.
However, you touched on one thing I want to comment on right now while it is still fresh:
“Hebrews 2:12, “In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You”
This is something that has been a personal struggle for me, as well as an aid to thinking outside of the box of my upbringing. Many Coc members have told me that we can tell if a text is inspired by the authorship and when it was written. However, the book of Hebrews presents an intriguing situation.
- We really have no idea who wrote it
- We really have no idea of an exact date of when it was written.
Therefore, our conclusions are pretty limited. (in my mind anyway)
1. We can either dismiss Hebrews as untrustworthy.
2. Regard it as inspired because is magically in the Bible.
3. Or, regard it as inspired because God worked through people who lived after the 1st century in forming the modern Bible. This included many different types of Christians who had many different approaches to the scriptures. Yet, they had the common goal to please God.
I would choose option three. Of course there may be other views on this issue that I would welcome hearing.
Randy,
Regarding music, I’ll tell you what my Dad told me after I came back from my first time visiting a Pentecostal church.
I told him that it was a bit of a shock when the head pastor – who was the father of a friend from high school – walked into the sanctuary holding an electric guitar and an amplifier. I’d never seen THAT before (and I was a good worldly age of 18 at the time too!)
The music was decidedly… different, than what I had come to expect from a life of hanging around mostly Methodist and Baptist churches.
Dad, in his great and superior wisdom, remarked that it didn’t matter to God at all how the music was made or what instruments were used. Just so long as it was sincerely praising God from the heart. “Like the Good Book says, ‘make a joyful noise unto the Lord’!” he noted.
Can someone make melody in their heart singing with music, I believe they can.
Truth, you are using some of my arguments made in the past. Sure singing occurs when playing an instrument.
Can one sing and dance at the same time? Singing still occurs.
Can one sing and juggle bowling pins at the same time? Singing still occurs.
Can one sing and play the drums at the same time? Singing still occurs.
The big question is, what instrument was Paul referencing when he said “sing and make melody in your heart” and where does this music-melody come from?
And, he also said TO ONE ANOTHER, meaning EVERYONE use the instrument that is played from the heart. I haven’t seen everybody in church playing a mechanical instrument and Paul says TO ONE ANOTHER.
Randy you didn’t answer these questions.
Are we to pray with our hands lifted up, are we to pray with our hands folded, are we to pray with our eyes shut, are we to pray with our eyes open?
chris said
Robertson has admitted that he uses “cunning craftiness” in his confrontation with others that he does not agree with.
Robertson didnt admitted anything
that is a question History Major
did you (“religiousreview” ) not answer
Truth, at the moment, I don’t have time to address each particular of Paul’s statement, but will when I have more time. I have made the same arguments you are throwing back at me…
Got to go. You guys have been kind and respectful and I do want to continue this discussion.
ttyl
chris said
Dad, in his great and superior wisdom, remarked that it didn’t matter to God at all how the music was made or what instruments were used. Just so long as it was sincerely praising God from the heart. “Like the Good Book says, ‘make a joyful noise unto the Lord’!” he noted.
please!
I will see ya Randy
thanks for the mail.
you are an encouragement to me… hope we see you on May 3rd
We have been inviting all friends & and or family to visit along with others who visit
Btw I didn’t appreciate the racial implications of someone remarks , are you referring to the fact that my wife is of another race?
or are you referring to my son who is Marshallese?
you guys are something
Mr. Robertson,
First – can you clarify the quotation that Chris put up from the youtube site? I reread the quote, and it sounded as if you were condoning “cunning craftiness”. If you weren’t, maybe you could explain what you meant.
Second – who made remarks with racial implications?
Thanks.
“Ephesians 5:19 – Paul links together two verbs, singing and making melody, which are sometimes found together in the Psalms concerning temple worship. They allude to the Levitical choir and band (cf. Psalms 68:25). They sang and played on harps to the Lord (Psalms 33:3; 144:9; cf. Psalms 21:13, 27:6, 56:8, 104:33; 105:2; 108:1). Israel made melody to the Lord on harps in the temple (Psalms 33:2,3; 71:22; 98:5; 144:9; 147:7, 149:3). Paul’s language stands in explicit contrast with the language of the Psalms. While the Psalms envision a temple service with a Levitical choir and band, Paul envisions singing which arises out of the playing of the heart rather than the harp. In contrast to playing the strings of a harp, we are to be filled with the Spirit by praising God with the strings of our hearts. Instead of sing and play an instrument to the Lord as it appears in the Psalms, Paul writes sing and play your heart to the Lord.”
I have the above in a subfolder under “music/worship” and not sure what article/sermon/book it came from, but I am pretty certain the above statements are from John Mark Hicks. I fully agree with him on this subject. You may be able to Google it and find the full article. I will search for the links when time permits.
Randy, you have time to answer on music, but not on prayer??
Are we to pray with our hands lifted up, are we to pray with our hands folded, are we to pray with our eyes shut, are we to pray with our eyes open?
For some reason, the early church did NOT have musical instruments. Katherine makes some valid points as to why some may not have played, but could this be the case for nearly 600 years?
http://www.bible.ca/H-music.htm
People believed the world was flat for years, because of ignorance. Black people were thought to be inferior to white people for years, because of ignorance. The same can be said about music in church.
“chris said
Dad, in his great and superior wisdom, remarked that it didn’t matter to God at all how the music was made or what instruments were used. Just so long as it was sincerely praising God from the heart. “Like the Good Book says, ‘make a joyful noise unto the Lord’!” he noted.
please!”
“Btw I didn’t appreciate the racial implications of someone remarks , are you referring to the fact that my wife is of another race?
or are you referring to my son who is Marshallese?
you guys are something”
- I am encouraged by the discussion going on here. However, the quotes above are not discussion, they are examples of ranting.
Mr. Robertson,
I would really like you to add your input into the conversation. Perhaps you could explain why you disagree with Chris on some of his points? You seem like you have put quite a bit of thought into Biblical matters, perhaps you could slow down and express your views in a manner that is understandable. I want to stress again that I am NOT belittling your spelling and communication skills. I am just having a difficult time comprehending some of your points.
Perhaps I am not alone on this?
1Co 11:18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord’s supper.
notice the above; Paul says “this is not…”
but they were taking the Lord’s Supper, but they were eating a meal with it
“still taking the supper”
but they were eating a meal too
therefore Paul say “not”
and he says it is really making you worse off
1Co 11:17 ¶ Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse.
who is causing the problem?
the ones unapproved
who has approval
1Co 11:23 ¶ For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you,…
the ones who continue in the things received from the Lord and delivered by Paul
so if a person tries to include a meal along with the Lord’s Supper, it is unapproved?
yes! But he is still taking the Lord’s Supper , he is just eating a meal too
No he is not eating the Lord’s Supper now, it has become “his” supper
Oh so then a person singing and playing is not praising God?
Right, he is involved in something strange
isn’t it what David did?
Yes, but just as “meats and drinks” of David are now strange, and forbidding of meats is strange (even though it was correct to forbid at one time)
this kind of music is strange
Heb 13:9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.
http://www.pb.org/pbdocs/music.html#Origin%20and%20History
Guys, I really have no more to add to this and it seems obvious to me that many people for some reason did not use music in worship. They seem to have understood Paul to mean sing, not play. The Catholic church changed this….think they changed a few other things too.
“For some reason, the early church did NOT have musical instruments. Katherine makes some valid points as to why some may not have played, but could this be the case for nearly 600 years?”
Well, I think another very valid reason was that many “church instruments” as we think of them today did not exist. (Organs, pianos, etc.) The few that did exist at the time (harps) were not really in great abundance.
However, things changed considerably at the beginning of the European Reniasance period. The great awaking of art, music, and learning stemmed directly from the Christian Church, since it was really the only structure in Europe with the financing and education for such advances.
Pre-600, is very difficult. We know precious little. Although we do know the greatest controversies seemed to revolve around the following:
1. separation of Christianity from Judisim as its own religion
2. Rome’s persecution and eventual adoption if Chrisianity
3. The Great Schism between the East and West and,
4. the gnostic heresy
The funny thing is that the two things we argue about the most on here (baptism and musical instruments) did not really seem come up too much.
People believed the world was flat for years, because of ignorance. Black people were thought to be inferior to white people for years, because of ignorance. The same can be said about the early church and music.
I am not talking about the early church of the Bible, seeing the Bible does not say they never played music.
Mr. Robertson, you still have not answered my questions…
If all other doctrines are “false”, then why should anyone believe that your “Church of Christ” is true?
What evidence can you provide demonstrating that your “Church of Christ” is the church described in the New Testament?
And if your “Church of Christ” can not be found in the New Testament, then why are you and your followers in a church that is not in the Bible?
You can’t rely on what the sign says outside your place of worship. That’s not good enough.
What reason would someone who knows nothing else of the situation have to look on your “church”, and find that your church is the “true” one?
Because as things stand now, you and your followers’ actions have given the world far more reasons to believe you are not of Christ, than you have given reasons why they should believe that you have anything to do with Christ at all.
is it just me or did Nathan cut out all the remarks where in it is clear that Randy (former advocate of answeringchurchofchrist)
takes major issue with the site?
the part where folks jumped all over Randy
the part where Randy challenged everyone here to meet with Johnny
where many jumped on Randy and said he found a new hero matt
are we trying to hide the fact that some see through this site
or is the old thread “slow”
come on guys put the thread back together so people can see what is taking place
good thing i copied all that from last week and saved for the church of Christ to pray about.
now to show on TV that nathan hides the evidence
is it cunning of me to keep this for all to see
record it ?
Da 1:4 Children in whom was no blemish, but well favoured, and skilful in all wisdom, and cunning in knowledge, and understanding science, and such as had ability in them to stand in the king’s palace, and whom they might teach the learning and the tongue of the Chaldeans.
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
cunning always bad? no?
who is trying to deceive?
kinda like the word covet huh?
bad kind
1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted(oregomai)
after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
Good kind
1Ti 3:1 ¶ This is a true saying, If a man desire (oregomai) the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
i will be looking for those old post
chris said
Churches of Christ – Started with Barton Stone and Alexander Campbell in 1832. Were not united on what to call their new denomination (Stone wanted “Christians” and Campbell wanted “Disciples of Christ”). Ultimately split into “Disciples of Christ” and “Church of Christ”.
The so-called “Church of Christ” of Johnny Robertson and James Oldfield – An extremely small minority that has nothing to do with the mainstream Churches of Christ.
did anyone ask Chris for his source
I read all the Baptist Historians calling ” anyone in water over the waist” Baptist
But when I read the source material (much of which I have) “Boast boast” (cunning fellow) ?
the people called themselves the church of Christ and had plurality of Elders and deacons, and rejected Baptist polity of today
well?
I would like to see Baptist church Chris “coalesced” or other wise , before 1700
So I suppose those who can’t talk are doomed since they can’t “sing”.
All melodies come from the heart. The heart is the place where music begins and is created long before it is ever expressed. To make melody in your heart to the Lord means just that…melodies that arise from a heart that loves God. The heart is the birthing place of all music.
The definition of “instrument” is anything that produces an audible melody. Thoughout all music history, the voice has been considered an “instument”. It never has been singled out as somehow different than all other instruments. It is developed and trained and used as any other instrument. Honestly, if some of the people who condemn IM took a few music theory, history and philosophy classes, their understanding of this subject would be enlightened. I am a musician and majored in music. To me, making a distinction between melody on the voice and melody on the violin based on this one verse is absurd and portrays a lack of knowledge of the basic music fundamentals.
And nobody has answered my question on necessary inference yet.
lest anyone think i don’t like chris to the contrary
Chris and Randy make this site
Chris is fighting it ya’ll
“Truth” on the other hand is mixed up about “praying with his eyes open”
Sunday school is at 10 Truth! Cradle roll at Starling Ave even
Thanks for the spicing it up Chris , but you still have to post some source besides your dad!
and Nathan may bad I did find the old post… but why did u take remove it just when Randy gave you all “down the road”
pretty “crafty” bad use
And as to the rebuke to Randy about “cut and paste”
how else we going to get stuff from 1500 England in front of readers here
it was just about to get good
please don’t put a “no cut and paste” rule on us Nathan
it is really rough to deal with
ban on All CAPS
what is next?
No name calling? Chris your gone if that happens
cheer up fellows
18 churches from Elkhorn Baptist Assoc when over to the church of Christ pg 72 Gates
http://books.google.com/books?id=X1VCAAAAIAAJ&dq=errett+GAtes&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=IQITTlliSY&sig=lUGwdlYBjDAUvbQ7_gGL-6f06GI&hl=en&ei=qTnuSbjsMcyYtgfSnNjKDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4#PPA72,M1
eight of the Dover Assoc pg 73 Gates
the whole Gsohen Assoc. pg 73 Gates
Majority of Tate Assoc pg
72
six From Boone Creek Assoc pg 71 Gates
Mahoning completely dissolved pg68-69 Gates
Gates is a Baptist
Mr. Robertson,
First, I didn’t cut out anything that Randy did or said, nor did I cut anybody’s responses. If you copied something and it’s gone, please specify what you are talking about. If you are talking about the end of the church of Christ doctrine page – it had grown too large and unwieldy, so I shut down comments and opened this new “church of Christ doctrine” page. You can still visit the old page if you follow the link above.
edit: I see now where you say you found the post. Thank you for acknowledging that. And I shut the old page down because I was getting complaints that it took too long for someone to open that page because of a faulty internet connection. I wasn’t shutting down discussion – which is why I put the link back up. And, when Randy reiterated his last point on this new page, I approved it with no problems.
Second, I am not opposed to cutting and pasting. I am opposed to folks not citing references. As long as it doesn’t get out of hand, anyone can cut and paste all they want – as long as they cite references. Otherwise it’s plagiarism, and I am opposed to plagiarism.
And finally, please note that some regular posters here have asked you legitimate questions, and they have asked those questions in a very respectful way. We are attempting to have dialogue here. So please consider taking some time and responding to those respectfully asked questions.
Thank you.
Mr. Robertson, once again…
If all other doctrines are “false”, then why should anyone believe that your “Church of Christ” is true?
What evidence can you provide demonstrating that your “Church of Christ” is the church described in the New Testament?
And if your “Church of Christ” can not be found in the New Testament, then why are you and your followers in a church that is not in the Bible?
You are supposed to be able to provide a ready answer whenever questioned.
Since you liken yourself to Jesus, you shouldn’t have to be reminded that as a young boy He was already astonishing the respected scholars of the temple with His wisdom and understanding.
So then Robertson, impress us with your wisdom, if you can.
Tell us why your “Church of Christ” is the same church that is described in the New Testament.
Let’s see if your own “church” holds up under the same scrutiny that you harass others with.
A short word to all posters…
If you make a mistake in your post, and you notice it, please feel free to send me a note and I’ll edit the error. Just keep in mind that I’m not on my computer 24/7 and so sometimes it might take a while.
And don’t go crazy on it, either. Just take your time and proof your writing before you hit “send”. One or two mistakes I don’t mind helping with. Rewriting an entire comment I won’t do.
And before someone accuses me of favoritism or something, it is an offer open to all commenters – even if I disagree with you. Imagine that!
CoC doctrine teaches meeting on the first day of the week as a command. Paul said:
Romans 14:5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
Now since people are condemned for not meeting on the first day of the week, is that not clearly false teaching per the above passage. Thus if I meet on the 4th day of the week and keep the “commands” am I really hell bound?
And if not then if people consider Christmas and Easter as Holy Days per Romans 14 how is it that someone condemns them for doing so?
“lest anyone think i don’t like chris to the contrary
Chris and Randy make this site
Chris is fighting it ya’ll”
- Does this mean you have no intention of addressing his questions?
““Truth” on the other hand is mixed up about “praying with his eyes open”
Sunday school is at 10 Truth! Cradle roll at Starling Ave even”
- Again, are you going to address any of Truth’s questions on prayer?
“and Nathan may bad I did find the old post… but why did u take remove it just when Randy gave you all “down the road”
pretty “crafty” bad use
And as to the rebuke to Randy about “cut and paste”
how else we going to get stuff from 1500 England in front of readers here
it was just about to get good”
- Maybe you could elaborate more on this statement? What point are you trying to make about 16th cen England?
“eight of the Dover Assoc pg 73 Gates
the whole Gsohen Assoc. pg 73 Gates
Majority of Tate Assoc pg
72
six From Boone Creek Assoc pg 71 Gates
Mahoning completely dissolved pg68-69 Gates”
- ?
“Gates is a Baptist”
- So?
my point DMH
is this
some are changing their views because we are on TV and even on here.
When I demonstrate time and again the “exodus” of 1225-1830 from Baptist churches over the very things we are discussing, it should make you all think.
Why then and not now?
Were all those Baptist fools, unlearned, ignorant?
I am also demonstrating the out right journalistic dishonesty or historical dishonesty of Baptist who try to rewrite History. Why would they hide the facts?
The Baptist try and make churches of Christ into Baptist to make their history look like it goes beyond where it can be recorded, by claiming the existing churches of Christ. My point is Chris has tried to make the church of Christ in “my” church and continues to refer to it in this fashion.
I have discussed on here all kinds of answers to what I consider question answered over and over and I would like the courtesy of having Chris and other address the apparent cover up.
Here is a case in point
http://www.pbministries.org/History/John%20T.%20Christian/vol1/history_18.htm
Watch the cover up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
John T, a Baptist is discussing baptism, he quotes Featley
Featley clearly states this was the church of Christ in 1525 and John T calls it Baptist
READ for yourself below. This is John T Christian’s article indicated by>>> ending with <<>>” The third broached theirs in the year 1525, which was this: ‘That baptism ought to be received by none, but such as can give a good account of their faith; and in case any have been baptized in their infancy, that they ought to he rebaptized after they come to years of discretion, before they are to be admitted to the church of Christ
The first tenet which he says is “peculiar to this new sect,” which had their origin in 1525, was “that none are rightly baptized but who are dipped.”
Featley declares there were Baptists in his neighborhood prior to 1625 that they had existed in England during the reigns of Henry VIII, Edward VI, James I; and of his own personal knowledge they had dipped in rivers for more than twenty years previous to 1644.<<<
My point? Chris and others (John T Christian) try to make Alexander Campbell responsible for the church of Christ.
again in Semples book
he fails to document that the Shubal Stearn’s movement from New England to NC named their Association in 1787 United Baptist Church of Christ
They were not the Baptist church of today. They were Separatist from the Church of England trying to go back to the New Testament not wanting “confessions of faith” or creeds but all the way back to the Bible.
Why did all the folks in 1820s leave behind their denominations who practice what you all practice today?
They were honest truth seekers!
Realizing therr has to be some authority for actions in order to have unity.
Randy is right about anarchy!
spiritual anarchy is what we have and we are trying to get you all to tell us how you come to your positions and all you want to do is throw questions at us.
Why don’t you all please defend something
In the streets Chris wouldn’t affirm anything. All he could put forth is questions. “How is this glorifying God”
I ask him well what is your system?
My point was to see if he was doing anything that would offer a better alternative?
Just running around complaining about me is doing the same that you accuse me of!
I am complaining about spiritual anarchy and you are complaining about me complaining and you think you are “giving God glory” ?
Let us hear one person on here defend your system.
All the Baptist as well as the thousands that left Baptists in 1820-30 opposed Nathan’s system.
I didn’t have a thing to do with that. But Nathan’s spiritual kin debated and I have the debates. Why won’t he?
I believe it is because history records that the great exodus of which I am speaking was increased by the debates. Alexander Campbell came to the conclusion that an hour of debate was worth a year of preaching.
Wonder why? folks won’t debate ?
No wonder! Look at Dan Parker debate with me. He gave up his own positions.
Now he won’t come on again.
On April 21, 2009 at 9:53 pm walkinginlove Said:
CoC doctrine teaches meeting on the first day of the week as a command. Paul said:
Romans 14:5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike.
you have flat our misunderstood Paul and made him the promoter of anarchy (confusion)
Rom 14 in context is speaking people having views yes but you can’t circumvent clear commands and put your views in place of them
Paul clearly states that 1st day is an ordinance to be kept by all in regard to giving
1Co 16:1 ¶ Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
suppose you want to set up thursdays. you can give on thursday to a fund of your own making
but you cannot come up on sunday and say well I gave to my own fund and I dont have to do this too
your giving to your fund on thurs day would have to be above the command made by Jesus through Paul
Now you have your special day, and you still honor Jesus commands that will unify us all in regard to
absolutely necessary things
Ac 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
Regarding Easter and Christmas you have no rights by Rom 14 to circumvent the meaning of the Lord’s day and try and falsely claim it is His birthday when he demands it is his Resurrection day!
Rom 14 does not give liberty to tell a lie to make it look like the truth, and be accepted more than truth… Jesus birth on Dec 25 is a Roman Catholic lie
now dont just ask me another question defend yourself
on Christmas
Consider another case just recently
I have no knowledge of this persons wherabouts or identiy… he has emailed a couple of times in the past and twice this week.
He asked would I take part in a radio show debate
I said yes
Here is the response
Jonathan Whitehead
They’ve refused to allow the Churches of Christ to accept their invitation for a debate. Not only have they revoked their invitation but I have also been banned from their radio show.
This is the same thing that happened her in Mville with Jeno Jennings
He debates everywhere, but won’t debate us?
Why?
History will repeat itself.
His founder debated us in 1950s
They have nothing they feel they can gain.
We do.
As Alexander Campbell said “an hour of debating is worth a year of preaching”
I would be happy to debate some Presbyterians
on scripture authority for sprinkling
I know Baptist who would do the same
Is their no value to such a public discussion?
Not to Presbyterians , no!
Does it matter? Well it keeps the Presbyterian in their place on Sunday away from everyone else who differ.
Matters to somebody
People in England killed a great number who felt otherwise in 1500s
Hence my purchase of Featley’s expensive book. I want to see for myself how defensive these folks were when they had the upper hand.
Folks,
Mr. Robertson is either unwilling to answer the very simple questions that we are posing to him…
…or he is incapable of answering them.
For all of his boasting of “debate”, “discuss”, “dialogue”, Robertson can not show us where HIS OWN “CHURCH” IS DESCRIBED IN THE BIBLE!
Instead he is attempting, as he always does, to alter the subject.
Robertson likes to brag that he’ll give $1000 to anyone who can find their denomination in the Bible.
Ironically, Robertson can not find where his own denomination is defined in the Bible, either.
Take up our challenge, Robertson. Answer our questions.
Or else, be known as the man who ever seeks to condemn the worship of others but cannot find scriptural support for your own.
On April 22, 2009 at 2:19 pm johnny Said:
my point DMH
is this
some are changing their views because we are on TV and even on here.
Though this will be one of those questions, what point does Jason hold now? I saw you speak of how he whupped two seasoned pastors, what is his view now?
I say that to say if people change views and then leave how is that different then not changing to your perspective? Are they not still lost?
my point DMH
is this
some are changing their views because we are on TV and even on here.
Is that an admission that your “truth” is not enough to persuade others? That you are more reliant on your self and it going out on television?
Fascinating.
No wonder you put much more stock in harassing innocent people, than you ever put on having any real knowledge or understanding of the Bible.
I will grant you this Mr. Robertson: you are at least more honest about how you use propaganda than Adolf Hitler ever was.
On April 21, 2009 at 9:53 pm walkinginlove Said:
CoC doctrine teaches meeting on the first day of the week as a command. Paul said:
Romans 14:5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike.
On April 22, 2009 at 2:40 pm johnny responds:
you have flat our misunderstood Paul and made him the promoter of anarchy (confusion)
Rom 14 in context is speaking people having views yes but you can’t circumvent clear commands and put your views in place of them
Paul clearly states that 1st day is an ordinance to be kept by all in regard to giving
1Co 16:1 ¶ Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
Lets see who is confusing whom….
The passage you speak of is not assigning a day of the week to worship it is telling them to collect the gift on the day when they worship, he knows they will meet on the first day, so since you are meeting go ahead and take up offerings so that when we come it will already be done.
Taken my way Paul is unified in both texts, the Holy Day is not important but since you are meeting on that first day take up the offering so it will be ready when we come.
If I had to venture a guess some Jews wanted to keep Saturday still Holy and gentiles did not thus the his words in Romans, however if the First Day was more Holy then any other day he would have said worship on the first day because of it being special. I did not.
suppose you want to set up thursdays. you can give on thursday to a fund of your own making
but you cannot come up on sunday and say well I gave to my own fund and I dont have to do this too
your giving to your fund on thurs day would have to be above the command made by Jesus through Paul
If it were a group of people who had no ability to meet on Sunday then by all means let them meet on Thursday and give on that day, they need to be fed, they need to fellowship with other believers and they need to worship. Mercy before Sacrifice or letter of the Law. It’s not confusion it is flexibility!
Now you have your special day, and you still honor Jesus commands that will unify us all in regard to absolutely necessary things
Ac 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
Meat Served to Idols, Paul teaches otherwise, none of the things listed is a command to meet on a certain day, the use of that passage when it talks about things other then the subject we are on is to be considered confusing.
Regarding Easter and Christmas you have no rights by Rom 14 to circumvent the meaning of the Lord’s day and try and falsely claim it is His birthday when he demands it is his Resurrection day!
If they called it Passover instead and celebrated his raising from the dead would that be better? It is good to focus on the events those days are declaring, if they are not exact dates it is not a sin. It is taking time to focus on the gift of his birth and the gift of his death. And it is covered under Romans 14 because it does not exempt the first day of the week as one of those days some men consider Holy.
Rom 14 does not give liberty to tell a lie to make it look like the truth, and be accepted more than truth… Jesus birth on Dec 25 is a Roman Catholic lie
Jesus was born, some rocket scientist might be able to give us a close day, but the exact is not known, again focusing on the gift of the saviors birth, the time where he sacrificed to come and live as a mortal man is a glorious thing! And it is covered under Romans 14, one man considers one day more sacred…
now dont just ask me another question defend yourself on Christmas
I didn’t have to Paul did it for me in Romans 14.
Now can you explain how a man of your skill totally misses the mark on 1 Cor 16, the point of that passage is not not have them wasting time doing something they can get done ahead of time and to be efficient do it when you meet.
Now you condemn others for holding some days more Holy then others, and that is a direct violation of what Paul was saying to do as in verse 13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother’s way.
Johnny,
Thank you for calming down and expressing your points in a more concise manner. It seems the summary of what you are saying is this:
- The Church of Christ existed before the American Restoration Movement, primarily in England
- The Church of Christ’s existence was actually covered up or confused as being Baptist in origin.
- The “exodus” movement from 1225? to 1830 was proof that people were tired of church “anarchy” and were ready to accept truth. You are bringing about a similar exodus today (we can touch on this point later)
(If these are not your primary points, please clarify.)
If it is, there are some major, major problems with this.
I am willing to bet your particular branch of the CoC has VERY VERY rigid and narrow scripture interpretations. So much so, that I am willing to bet you would disfellowship some individuals or even entire congregations if they practiced or were even indifferent about some of the following aspects:
- communion frequency
- use of alcoholic wine in communion
- use of musical instruments in worship service
- acceptance of Calvinistic influence, like pre-destination and “once saved always saved doctrine”
- subjective belief that a person being baptized must be baptized for “remission of sins” per acts 2:38
- women’s and men’s prospective roles in the church
- and MUCH MUCH more (if other things need to be listed just let me know)
Did these supposed secret Cocs follow all of this to a T? Highly unlikely. You seem to be arguing that they were CoCs because A. they practiced credobaptism B. and were referred to by the general term “Churches of Christ” in an obscure Baptist Book. You have failed to show any proof that these congregations were “sound” in the same rigid manner that you would consider sound congregations to be today.
Or, are you willing to let doctrine slide in some instances? If so let us know what can slide and what level of perfection must be achieved in doctrinal understanding in order to be sound.
WIL said;
Now you condemn others for holding some days more Holy then others, and that is a direct violation of what Paul was saying to do as in verse 13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother’s way.
So… Rom 14 is the final say? There is no day that is a day that all “must” accept as the weekly assembling of ourselves together ?
Everyone on here is in agreement with that?
Presbyterian Nathan, Baptist Chris, Pentecostal Lee, all are ready to go back to your Pastors, synods, associations and say ” stop judging the folk who don’t want to come together on the 1st day of the week.”
We are about to find out why everyone stays anonymous. If Nathan were to affirm this, his “officials” in his denomination would not send him back to mission?
Waiting to hear the unity on WIL’s “no” judging if we all want to be 7th day adventist.
while we wait can I ask why Chris gets to use all caps and others do not?
4-22 post from Cris
For all of his boasting of “debate”, “discuss”, “dialogue”, Robertson can not show us where HIS OWN “CHURCH” IS DESCRIBED IN THE BIBLE!
while we wait on all the differing denoms on here to tell WIL that they do not agree with him
let us hear from the presbyterian scholar Albert Barnes on Rom 14
The question has been agitated, whether the apostle intends in this to include the Christian Sabbath. Does he mean to say that it is a matter of indifference whether this day be observed, or whether it be devoted to ordinary business or amusements? This is a very important question in regard to the Lord’s day.
That the apostle did not
mean to say that it was a matter of indifference
whether it should be kept as holy, or devoted to business or amusement, is plain from the following considerations:
he then give several reason why WIL is wrong.
these later
this is all very interesting. I am going to very disappointed if we don’t get feed back on WIL assertion
Interesting…
Lately, Robertson seems to be insisting that I am a “Baptist”.
But several people have told me that a few weeks ago on his television program, Robertson declared that I “don’t believe in Baptism”.
So according to Johnny Robertson, I am a Baptist who has renounced baptism…?!?
Sorta like the theological equivalent of Schrodinger’s Cat: simultaneously doctrinally sound and a heretic.
Mr. Robertson…
If all other doctrines are “false”, then why should anyone believe that your “Church of Christ” is true?
What evidence can you provide demonstrating that your “Church of Christ” is the church described in the New Testament?
And if your “Church of Christ” can not be found in the New Testament, then why are you and your followers in a church that is not in the Bible?
while we wait
Randy already put forth that Rom 14 isn’t the end all
On April 16, 2009 at 1:56 pm churchesofchrist Said:
I agree, each can go to the extreme. Now that we have made points from both sides, where are the lines?
Rom 14. Is not the best place to make your case, seeing other scriptures point out clearly that Paul taught the same things in all churches and condemned those who taught contrary doctrines.
“while we wait”
Mr. Robertson, we are still waiting for you to answer our questions.
Why should we be compelled to answer you when you won’t answer us?
so answered WIL
and ask how you all see his teaching on Rom 14 and you all know you disagree
but you won’t answer
thanks
Randy was right about you all
Johnny your deceitful games are not going to work. Please answer our questions. Chris has put his questions up a couple of times for you and again here are the questions I have asked.
Are we to pray with our hands lifted up, are we to pray with our hands folded, are we to pray with our eyes shut, are we to pray with our eyes open?
“Everyone on here is in agreement with that?
Presbyterian Nathan, Baptist Chris, Pentecostal Lee, all are ready to go back to your Pastors, synods, associations and say ” stop judging the folk who don’t want to come together on the 1st day of the week.””
- I am in agreement with this. There is no passage in the Bible that dictates that Sabbath observation must cease, or that Christians only met on Sunday mornings. It seems there is proof they met daily. However, if you really want to get technical, the “first day” of the week for Jews began at dusk Sat. night, and still does for Jews that observe Shabbat.
- So Johnny, if you really want to mirror the 1st cen church in Jerusalem you should be conducting services on Sat Nights.
What book of the Bible did that Scholar write CoC Denominational Johnny? After all since you hold to the same traditions as other denominations over Sunday as the only day you are a denomination yourselves!
It really does not matter if anyone agrees with Romans 14, it says what it says, Jesus did not specify a day, they selected a day, some of them selected every day, some came from Saturday holy day system (Jewish) some did not (gentiles), they clashed over it and Paul’s response was to stop stressing over it and live everyday for God!
BTW Deonominational CoCer Johnny, Paul clearly shows us that food served to Idols was a non issue and this is directly different then the Council’s letter written to do away with circumcision:
The Council wrote: Acts 15:28It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.
In a latter book of Roman’s Chap 14, that was physically a time after the letter was sent out, Paul says no food is unclean! This is a contradiction to the command given by the council, and it is as much a command as your attempt to cherry pick the day to meet out of context.
Romans 14:13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother’s way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died.
Now who’s doctrine is right, the council’s or Paul’s denominational Johnny? Who is the false teacher?
Or is it that the council to soften the blown to the Jewish believers over the loss of circumcision gave some items that were clearly from the “Jews Religion” to them so they would not stumble? And Paul told the Gentiles it was a non-issue unless they were around a Jew who believed it was an issue then don’t do it. Thus I attend Church on Sunday out of respect for others beliefs, not because I think the day is any different then another. I have had Church on different days in different ways.
What difference is it in concept if I do good things on a “non-Holy day” like fellowship and worship, the example that Jesus gave with healing on the sabbath was doing Good and thus not against the Law, the same principle applies today, if some people have a need and can’t meet that need in the generally chosen day then they should do so to the Glory of God since everyday is his day! And if they are doing good, who am I to condemn them since every knee will bow to God one day!
When we are in heaven will we only come see God on Sunday to worship or will we worship every day all day?
So it is not important what others think on the matter, except for them to know that my belief in my mind reading Romans 14 says that every day is important and that we should not condemn others who see some days differently, thus I do not condemn the CoC for NOT celebrating Easter/Passover or having a special day to remember Christ’s birth.
I only wish you had more Roman’s 14 in you since it is just as much God’s word also!
God Bless you Denominational Johnny!
I said this a few weeks ago on my own blog, but I’m led to share it here also…
It really doesn’t bother me one bit what Johnny Robertson, James Oldfield, and their followers choose to believe. Personally, I don’t care. It doesn’t impact my own beliefs one bit. And you wanna know why?
Because every person has an absolute and irrevocable right to seek God as best he or she can understand Him.
I sincerely believe that. And not once have I ever felt that it’s a right that Robertson, Oldfield and their cult should be denied.
But…
Their right to follow God ends where the right of others to do the same begins.
Robertson can stand in his pulpit on Sunday morning with however many (or few) followers that he can con into listening to him. Hey, it’s their right also, if that’s what they choose.
But when he and Oldfield and their goons take to harassment of others, and even outright lies and slander, well… that’s when they have crossed the line that most rational and reasonable people know is there.
That’s the point where they abuse their rights, and violate the rights of others.
I have seen videos where Robertson and Oldfield claim that other churches are preaching “against” them. I don’t believe it. A legitimate church won’t care about Robertson, Oldfield and their cult. Certainly not enough to spend a worship service teaching “against” them.
I cannot but help contend that this is a “victim mentality” that Robertson and Oldfield have, that they are likewise encouraging among their adherents. Makes it more stylish to pose as being “persecuted”… which they really aren’t.
They aren’t victims. They aren’t real ministers of Christ. They are, at most, a gang of ecclesiastical bullies.
And like I said: I don’t mind what screwy beliefs they hold to.
But when they take to trying to hurt others out of no other reason than hatred and spite…
…that’s when they have to be called out for it.
Johnny said: “Randy already put forth that Rom 14 isn’t the end all”
Rom. 14 addreses some specific issues, not everything. Paul never wanted Rom. 14 to be the only place we go – he clearly says others were teaching other doctrines, making the faith of some shipwreck and also has other scriptures about holding to the pattern…
Randy
“However, if you really want to get technical, the “first day” of the week for Jews began at dusk Sat. night, and still does for Jews that observe Shabbat”
I disagree. I am sure you know why, so I want labor the points.
Nath said: Second, I am not opposed to cutting and pasting. I am opposed to folks not citing references. As long as it doesn’t get out of hand, anyone can cut and paste all they want – as long as they cite references. Otherwise it’s plagiarism, and I am opposed to plagiarism.
I have most of my comments saved to subfolders and often dont know who they are from, but will start including that when saved to subfolders. Far as plagiarism goes, everyone on here has done this at times. The diff. is most change the words and make it thier own. Many of you are repeating arguments from others and places you have read…your not the original of anything. Somebody else said it way before you guys. TRUTH even has used MY comments a few times on here and over at graceconversation, but did I get all crazy and scream…did you get permission from me to use my very own comments. I dont care about this baby stuff guys. Sue me, I guess…maybe thats the Christain way…get real. You all do this. Tiy arguments are often from other writtings…so stop playing like you just all of a sudden came up with them. All you have done was rewroed what others say…like I said, this is baby stuff.
Nathan, why cant you open up the doors to the blog like it once was – where commets can flow in order. I have noticed some of my comments get held up while others approved. Do you have to approve all coments or are some blocked for moderation? If not, you are approving some while my sit in the hole. Why not run this blog as you once done…beside, thought others were helping you now with this blog.
On April 20, 2009 at 8:48 am To Johnny Said:
Johnny, I do have a question for you, if you don’t mind answering here. If not, please email me your reply. ( Randy )
When the church of Christ ( conservatives branch ) says we are to be of the same mind – speak the same things, are you saying that we must all reach perfect understanding and practice of every doctrine of scripture before we die, or else be damned
The definition of plagiarism is this, from dictionary.com: “a piece of writing that has been copied from someone else and is presented as being your own work”.
It isn’t taking ideas and integrating them into your own thoughts. It’s also not a question of getting permission. What it boils down to is giving people their due. It’s ethics, pure and simple.
As to opening the comments up to no moderation, things got too much out of control before. If someone else wants to open up a blog that is run differently, that’s fine.
Randy said: TRUTH even has used MY comments.
Sorry Randy you are wrong. My comments are what I think. You have said things that I have already said, not saying that you didn’t already have that opinion, I just had said it first.
Here is what Randy said about IM at graceconversation:
April 14, 2009 at 10:03 AM
If the question is “when does a Christian lose his salvation”, then how can we dodge IM and other issues that we deem to be fellowship issues?
I have probably studied the conservative views more so than most who attend the conservative assemblies and know their arguments just as well. I know, for a fact, that many conservative preachers condemn IM to the point that it is not only a sinful practice, but just cause for one to lose his salvation.
I think Jays point was how do we determine this? My conservative friends would answer because “it is written” or authorized a certain way, meaning when one goes beyond such authority, he has sinned and a continual practice of that sin will result in salvation being forfeited. If I am misrepresenting them, please advise.
I think the points made here regarding IM were based upon the apostasy question. How else could one determine such without both sides making their case?
If we cant make a case, then I would have to side with my conservatives friends and say one does indeed lose his salvation when he allows music in worship, seeing Paul said sing.
1Co 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
If I take this verse at face value, then I must side with my conservative friends. Paul said Pray – not pray and dance. Paul said sing – not sing and play.
If we are to speak where the bible speaks, and not go beyond what is written, then we must pray, not dance. We must sing, not play.
Here is what I said at graceeconversation:
April 14, 2009 at 10:18 AM
Randy made the point of singing with understanding. Is someone singing with music not singing anymore, my understanding is that they are still singing.
Pray with understanding. Are we to pray with our arms lifted up, are we to pray with our hands folded, are we to pray with our eye’s shut, are we to pray with our eye’s open?
I had brought up the first point a long time ago here and Randy has also used the same comment a few times himself after I already had.
Randy had brought up a verse that had singing and prayer in it. Randy never asked the questions as I have about prayer nor have I ever seen him ask these questions I asked about prayer. So no Randy I did not use your comment, but commented what I was thinking as I read other peoples comments.
I have learned it is better to give the reference when I use a piece of writing from an article someone else has written. If I am saying something someone else has said that I agree with I try to acknowledge them. I have said things which WIL has already said and I have acknowledged that I was agreeing with what he said. I may not always do that but I try to when it seems reasonable to. I have learned that when I agree with a piece of writing from an article someone else has written and want to use it to save where I got the writing from because I can’t always remember where I had read it. I remember one time I had used a piece of writing on this blog from another blog, I didn’t reference who it was written by but I did let it be known I had not written it but thought it was very good and agreed with much of it.
“When the church of Christ ( conservatives branch ) says we are to be of the same mind…”
This demands asking: whose mind is it that we are supposed to be the same as?
I know several people who have told me that they want nothing at all to do with the mentality of the “Church of Christ” that Robertson and Oldfield represent. Can’t say I blame ‘em for that either.
Are we to be like your mind, Randy? Like Truth’s? Like my own? Heck, not even I want others to share my own mind! I’d rather they seek out God with the minds He gave them, not mine.
Obviously, scripture is speaking of the “mind of Christ”, which our own minds are being transformed like unto His. But no one among us on this Earth can boast at all of having that perfected mind. If he does, then it is out of the grossest of egotism and self-centeredness.
Unfortunately, there are some people that we already know well enough of, who believe that everyone else should emulate their own minds. And they see nothing wrong with harassing others toward that end.
If I can just add – I don’t care if people integrate other people’s ideas into their own way of thinking and use it later. This is normal. As I was taught in school, there really aren’t any original ideas out there, anyhow.
I also don’t expect people to always say, “As (insert name here) says…”. If one says, “I’ll be back”, one shouldn’t have to say – “As Arnold Schwarzenegger said in Terminator…”.
It’s just this ridiculous idea of lifting entire paragraphs (and in some cases people have cut and pasted entire articles from other blogs) and not citing references that doesn’t cut the mustard.
And if a commenter doesn’t know where it comes from, at the least he or she can say something like, “I found this somewhere else, but don’t remember where…”.
Otherwise, in both cases, what is communicated (probably unintentionally) is, “I sat down on my computer and came up with this information on my own. It is my work, that I researched and spent time thinking through and writing.”
If ethics alone aren’t an adequate argument, how about these thoughts: What if the readers find the writing interesting and want to read more that of the original author’s writings? Without a reference, they can’t. What if they want to comment about it to the person who originally put pen to paper in order to establish a dialogue? Without a reference, they won’t know who that person is.
It’s what we teach our children. It’s what we learn in college. It’s the journalistic standard. It’s even what we do with Scripture, expecting BCV.
It’s just an all around good idea.
Sorry Randy you are wrong. My comments are what I think. You have said things that I have already said, not saying that you didn’t already have that opinion, I just had said it first.
TRUTH: You have used my very own comments from here and taken them there. I know this for a fact! I honestly dont care though…I dont get all up tight over this nonsense. later.
Randy, As I said you have used my comments on other blogs including the blog you had, not saying you didn’t already have that opinion but that I had said it first. No problem.
I had made my comments that someone singing with music is still singing a long time ago on this blog and later you used the same comment, again no problem. The questions I asked about prayer were my questions and I have never seen you ask any of these questions about prayer.
I suggest you read what ACOC said. I think he made some very good points.
hi guys,
my computer is back up.
just catching up on the action.
i wont mention any names but while your in there
checking for polyps and such, remove that bug in
johns bum.
yea i know, but i had to try
lee
Johnny Romans 14 is also not to be given any less value then any other scripture, so you can’t ignore it for traditions even of the early church.
It’s almost a week later, and thus far not Johnny Robertson, James Oldfield or any of their followers have even tried to touch on the questions that have been asked of them.
So, I will ask them again…
Mr. Robertson, Mr. Oldfield, and their associates:
If all other doctrines are “false”, then why should anyone believe that your “Church of Christ” is true?
What evidence can you provide demonstrating that your “Church of Christ” is the church described in the New Testament?
And if your “Church of Christ” can not be found in the New Testament, then why are you and your followers in a church that is not in the Bible?
Could it be that you have not answered these questions, because you CAN NOT answer them?
Might it possibly be that there is no proof that you are from “the church that you read about in the New Testament”?
You people do nothing but lash out and try to destroy those you deem to be “false”…
…but you have become so obsessed with destroying others, that you don’t even understand what YOU are supposed to believe in!
So, Mr. Robertson, Mr. Oldfield: show us where YOUR church is described in the Bible!
You can’t hide behind the words on your church signs any more.
We are calling you out. Just as you have called others out.
Give us the irrefutable evidence that you are anything like the Christians from the days of Peter and Paul and John and Polycarp.
Or could it be that you don’t possess either the biblical knowledge or the historical scholarship to back up your claim to be the one true church?
If you’ve got it, show it to us. Shut us up with it.
But we aren’t going to stop asking the same questions of you, if you are going to keep asking them of innocent believers in your mad bid to bring division to the real body of Christ.
How about we make things interesting…
Johnny Robertson, I am hereby making a public and formal challenge to you.
It is as follows:
You have an hour and a half of live television airtime every Sunday night on WGSR.
I challenge you, Johnny Robertson to spend the entire duration of but one of your live shows, to answering these three very simple questions…
1. If all other doctrines and denominations are “false”, then why should anyone believe that your “Church of Christ” is true?
2. What evidence can you provide demonstrating that your “Church of Christ” is the original church that is described in the New Testament? In answering this you must provide examples of how your “Church of Christ” is 100% in keeping with scriptural and historical evidence.
3. If your “Church of Christ” can not be found in the New Testament, then why are you and your followers in a church that is not in the Bible?
And there is one stipulation of my challenge to you: you can not, ever, not even a single time, reference any other “denomination” during said show. This means no mentioning of Baptists, Methodists, Pentecostals, Catholics, Mormons, or anyone else. You must dedicate all of one show to making the case for your denomination, or “church”, or whatever it is… without attacking anyone else.
You shouldn’t have to mention any “others” anyway, if you are confident enough in your own. If you have enough faith in the “church” that you are part of.
But so far you haven’t given anyone any reason to have faith in the “Church of Christ” at all.
In all the time that I have watched your and James Oldfield and your followers, I cannot remember even one occasion where you tried to make the case for your own church. You have always sought instead to destroy other congregations.
The only thing that you have ever demonstrated is that you have “Church of Christ” on the sign outside your sanctuary.
That ain’t gonna cut it anymore. You’ll have to do better than that.
So try to make a case for your own, if you can.
If you cannot do this, well then…
…what do you suppose that says about the “truth” of your “Church of Christ”, that you cannot let the truth speak for itself?
That is my challenge.
check out my answer tonite chris
And I will wager an RC Cola and a Moon Pie, Mr. Robertson, that you can not go an hour and a half, or two hours or whatever, without attacking somebody.
Think about it, if you can: you have yet to build up any significant case for your own “church” purely on the strength of its own doctrine and beliefs.
Instead you base your “church” on seeking to destroy others.
That only goes so far. And that’s not even very far to begin with.
So…
Show us that you are confident enough in your own church that it can stand on its own, without any detrimental reference to others.
If it is truly of God, it will stand on its own merit.
If it is not, it will fall.
thanks chris
you said
Think about it, if you can: you have yet to build up any significant case for your own “church” purely on the strength of its own doctrine and beliefs.
this comes from a man who couldn’t go 30 minutes to keep his word on the free time given him to talk about the truth. Instead he had to praise schoooooders cat and show himself on the pot during a religious discussion.
This will be my last post to chris.
I will pay attention to some of the others if I see something new.
I am putting you and the shiek together as that is where you belong.
Sounds like Chris is still having control issues
I haven’t been able to see the bulk of “The Martinsville Taliban Show” tonight (that’s what one of my friends has taken to calling it)…
…but from what I am looking at right now, this evening Johnny Robertson is proving my point in spectacular fashion.
He’s unable to define his “Church of Christ” without showing hatred and loathing toward others.
What would an hour and a half or two hours of Johnny Robertson or James Oldfield or any of their followers look like, without their attacking anyone?
I guess we’ll never know.
And the shame of it is, all these stories I’ve been posting about what the churches of Christ can be like, and our local guys just don’t seem to get it. Their belief system is totally wrapped up in proving others wrong, rather than being a “pleasing aroma” that will attract people (2 Cor 2:14-16).
I wondered if Mr. Robertson would take up your challenge, Chris. Not because you had challenged him, but just to show the community that being a part of the church of Christ means something positive – not just being adversarial and trying to “defeat destroy” 24/7.
Oh well. It’s their golden opportunity they missed.
hi faithless!
ill bet john cant keep his word about that being his last post to chris.
seems to me he said it was too dark in here and
he was through a year ago.
somebodys pants are smoking……
lee
3rd request:
Johnny, I do have a question for you, if you don’t mind answering here. If not, please email me your reply. ( Randy )
When the church of Christ ( conservatives branch ) says we are to be of the same mind – speak the same things, are you saying that we must all reach perfect understanding and practice of every doctrine of scripture before we die, or else be damned?
Wow what a great show! If I was thinking about becoming a Christian I would have changed my mind.
I saw a caller lying to someone trying to get their book on their beliefs. Makes me what to run right out and get dunked!
Lets see what did he say at first, “I’m just seeking the truth” what a Freudian slip!
walking -> “Wow what a great show! If I was thinking about becoming a Christian I would have changed my mind.”
You sure do tune in regularly for someone who can’t stand to watch.
“You sure do tune in regularly for someone who can’t stand to watch.”
Those who are not restrained by God or conscience often warrant maintaining a vigilance toward.
4th request: Maybe you can answer Joey, if Johnny is busy.
Johnny, I do have a question for you, if you don’t mind answering here. If not, please email me your reply. ( Randy )
When the church of Christ ( conservatives branch ) says we are to be of the same mind – speak the same things, are you saying that we must all reach perfect understanding and practice of every doctrine of scripture before we die, or else be damned?
Oh, you mean like you?
What if… EVERY Christian in North Carolina and Virginia became members of the “Church of Christ” that Johnny Robertson and James Oldfield represent?
That is what Robertson, Oldfield and their followers desire, isn’t it? That is the goal that they are driving toward. What they are spending a great deal of money in trying to achieve. There has to be some reason why they are compelled to harass others, at potential risk to their own safety.
So let’s ask the obvious question, that should have already been asked a long time ago: “What would happen if Robertson and Oldfield did get what they want?”
Their stated goal is for every Christian to “repent” and yield to their brand of “Church of Christ” doctrine. But for sake of this exercise, let’s assume that only the Christians of the two states that WGSR broadcasts to, agree to submit to baptism into the “Church of Christ” and thus end any and all so-called “false doctrines” and “divisions”.
So… Robertson and Oldfield and their followers now have “unity”. All of the Christians are in “one mind”.
How long do you think that would last?
There is extremely little doubt, that it would not last very long at all.
If… if… every Christian in the two states’ area were to become part of “the Church of Christ”, it would not stop there for Johnny Robertson. The mission that he has taken up for his life would be at an end. After all, what else would there be left for him to do? When a man only knows how to confront and threaten people, what fulfillment can there be when there is no more reason to confront?
Could Robertson readily adapt to the world of his own making? I don’t think so. He will want to find his “purpose” again, doing the only thing that he really knows how to do.
And so it is that Robertson will, sooner than later, set out to purge from the ranks of his “Church of Christ” those whom he deems are not “faithful” enough. And he will do so because he doesn’t want to give up whatever measure of “power” he will believe he has. What, does anyone seriously think that Robertson is not going to see himself as the head “elder” of such a vast congregation?
He will be just like Josef Stalin. The “Church of Christ” will become an organization kept in line by fear and paranoia (actually, Robertson’s Martinsville Church of Christ already is that, from what I understand). Those who are deemed to not be “faithful” enough will be exiled, and quite possibly worse. Hey, with all that power in his hands, it’ll only be a matter of time before those who might be “troublesome” for Robertson will be made to disappear… forever.
And the very first person who would get “the treatment” will have to be James Oldfield. As Robertson’s second in command of the cult already, Robertson will see his cousin as the greatest threat to his hold on power. So like Leon Trotsky, Oldfield will be sent away and then quietly disposed of.
Either Robertson would have Oldfield permanently removed, or Oldfield would rebel against Robertson and have him arrested and then worse.
And even if none of that ever happened among the top leadership, within a year or two the united “Church of Christ” would tear itself apart into a myriad of different factions, each one claiming that it is “THE Church of Christ”. No faction will recognize the right of any other to exist. Robertson and Oldfield’s achievement of having one “Church of Christ” uniting all Christians would break down into civil war and destroy itself. It will be a far worse thing than however bad it’s supposed to be now, with the various denominations that we have.
So let me cut to the point: what Johnny Robertson, James Oldfield, “faithfull”, Joey, and the rest of the cult wants… is impossible.
It’s not going to happen. It’s not supposed to happen. Not as they are demanding that it happen, anyway.
In their own way, they are attempting to recreate the very same sin that the people of Babel committed when they tried to build their tower. They wanted to make “a name” for themselves, and be united as a show of force and a symbol of pride. And then God confused and divided them so that they could not do it.
Robertson and Oldfield and their followers have never sought to sincerely serve Christ with their actions. They are trying to serve themselves.
Their “unity” is not the unity of Christ. Theirs is the unity of man. And man is a savage thing indeed…
Robertson, Oldfield and their adherents are still demonstrating a carnal, sinful nature to the world and because their motives are impure, whatever goals they are trying to achieve will likewise be imperfect and corrupt.
And they will ultimately self-destruct.
So they might as well give up what they are doing.
It is not only not reflective of the love, mercy and grace of Christ, but it is also a vain chasing after what will never be a work that can withstand the scrutiny of God’s purifying flame.
Robertson and his cult are wasting time and money on a thing that not only can not be, but should not be.
And I thank God that He has made it so.
On April 27, 2009 at 10:45 am Joey Said:
walking -> “Wow what a great show! If I was thinking about becoming a Christian I would have changed my mind.”
You sure do tune in regularly for someone who can’t stand to watch.
I always try and keep an eye on what others are doing in case I run into a non-christian that points to the gossip show as proof God does not exist, thus I can answer them and speak with knowledge of the show.
Joey what does God say about gossip?
5th request:
When the church of Christ ( conservatives branch ) says we are to be of the same mind – speak the same things, are you saying that we must all reach perfect understanding and practice of every doctrine of scripture before we die, or else be damned?
Since nobody from the church of Christ wants to touch the question I ask – maybe Chris can give it a shot. Chris, what say ye? And please don’t quote me some Baptist scholars and such? I just want to see how you answer the question that Johnny and Joey ignored. No long ongoing comments filled with quotes from scholars of the past – that doesn’t impress me. Just use the bible and answer………..
Randy,
Since Mr. Robertson is apparently evading the question, either out of abject fear or because he possibly can’t provide a serious, intellectual answer, I will respond to your query…
The short answer: Yes. Absolutely. They believe that there must be “perfect understanding”, or else whoever deviates from that is lost.
The long answer: of course ,they won’t SAY that out loud. I have even heard Robertson claim aloud that there can be “differences”. But whatever differences are allowed are so excruciatingly minor, that they do not count at all as legitimate areas of theological consideration. So it is that Robertson, Oldfield etc. are trying to “corner the market” on what is allowed. They are hellbent on defining, on their own terms, Christian doctrine. And if you don’t agree with their take on it, you are damned for Hell.
These are people who have said that to have a piano or organ or some other musical instrument in a place of worship is a mortal sin… even though there is no single verse in the Bible that commands a prohibition against instruments!
Now, you can’t get much kookier than that.
But they won’t hear of it. They aren’t even interested in considering anything other than their own very narrow interpretation of scripture, which more often than not comes from extreme inference, wild conjecture and even taking verses out of context wholesale. It’s no longer about what Christ would have us do. To them, it’s about what they think Christ should have us do.
They have replaced Christ with their own “understanding”.
I don’t say this lightly: Robertson and Oldfield and their followers are fringe extremists of the highest order. That is why I call them a “cult”.
And that’s also why some people are now calling Robertson’s broadcast “The Martinsville Taliban Show”.
Go read what the Taliban is now doing in areas of Pakistan that they have recently taken over. And try to imagine Robertson, Oldfield et al not doing stuff like that if they had enough influence, guns etc.
Johnny Robertson is to Christianity as the Taliban is to Islam.
So yeah: in the minds of the local “Church of Christ” cult, it’s follow Johnny or go to Hell.
And as I said a few posts above, what they are claiming to want is impossible. They have no idea or understanding at all of what it is they claim to be “working” toward.
“5th request:
When the church of Christ ( conservatives branch ) says we are to be of the same mind – speak the same things, are you saying that we must all reach perfect understanding and practice of every doctrine of scripture before we die, or else be damned?”
-Randy, I do not think there is anyway Johnny can or will answer this. Although, I hope he does.
Randy wrote:
“5th request:
When the church of Christ ( conservatives branch ) says we are to be of the same mind – speak the same things, are you saying that we must all reach perfect understanding and practice of every doctrine of scripture before we die, or else be damned?”
Randy,
My answer would be 2 Peter 3:18 for starters:
“But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.”
Growth is a continual process, but why can’t there be certain things that are clearly understood from the outset?
Peter in the same context (v. 16) talks about things hard to understand in Paul’s epistles, but doesnt that verse also imply that there is a CORRECT way to understand what is written?
“…in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction”
If its so difficult to come to a perfect (complete) understanding, then why does Peter mention those that are unlearned ‘wresting’ the true meaning of what is written. If it were impossible to come to a perfect understanding on certain items, then how could they be wrested?
Ill await your reply.
Randy,
I would also add Heb 5:11-13:
11Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
12For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
There is a time for feeding on milk, but as you grow (2 Pet 3:18) then obviously meat is in order, unless the person simply has no desire to grow (as in verse 11 above)
Joey
Randy,
Also I did not ignore you. I have a lot going on personally and I can’t spend all my time on this blog.
Joey
Chris -> “And that’s also why some people are now calling Robertson’s broadcast “The Martinsville Taliban Show”.
Go read what the Taliban is now doing in areas of Pakistan that they have recently taken over. And try to imagine Robertson, Oldfield et al not doing stuff like that if they had enough influence, guns etc.”
Chris,
Arent you the one who spent hours on a made up story and cheesy photos about how Johnny’s son was shot and in critical condition?
Spare us, please!
Joey, as you…I am also well aware of these arguments you are puting forth. But have you really addressed anything? No.
I could have quoted them verses too. Why leave off those whom Paul called saints at Corinth? They had major doctrinal error.
No one is saying that there isn’t ONE meaning of scripture. You should know by now that many top conservatives disagree on things privately but still hold fellowship or are you kept from knowing these things? Or persuaded otherwise?
The way out is to create acts of worship and refer to other things as expedients or matters of opinion. But, a little digging will show that many conservatives also disagree on marital issues ( ask Johnny, he knows ) and the doctrine about the Holy Spirit. Its just when you get to music or something that you guys get all picky over. To me the Holy Spirit should weigh heavier as doctrine. Does the Holy Spirit reside in the believer? Some of you guys say through the Word only.. some say literally.. some say both.
I understand you wanting to hold to what you have been taught, but you do not speak the same things as every church of Christ assembly, no matter how you wish to make us and yourself believe this. Go to Todd’s blog and others……you might not like it, but you have unity in diversity.
You still haven’t answered my question, you gave an evaded answer. Jason prep me on these tactics. The question is clear, and you failed to address it honestly. I hate to say this, but Chris actually was more honest with his answer.
One more time: When the church of Christ ( conservatives branch ) says we are to be of the same mind – speak the same things, are you saying that we must all reach perfect understanding and practice of every doctrine of scripture before we die, or else be damned?”
Very true, Joey. One grows in the Word. This invites many more questions. Do we all grow at the same rate? What is one dies before he grasp the truth fully? Who makes the rules far as how long one has to determine the meaning of certain scripture? You say one should partake each Sunday ( I agree btw ) you may have grasped this quickly – I did not. Everyone in your very own assembly will understand scriptures at various rates – as they grow. I seen this when I attended. Some answered incorrectly, and they were allowed to fellowship. But don’t dare disagree about music or the frequency of the Lords supper as this will get you the boot or at most rejected from partaking the Lords Supper. Before we waste each others time, I know your arguments well as you and I am sure you know the others as well. I still believe you have not studied and compared what many of the top conservative church of Christ preachers teach, if so. you would see the inconsistencies just as I did…just as Jason did………..just as Todd did and many, many others. Take these arguments into the progressive blogs and see….ttyl Joey.
Hello , request granted
no it does not mean that
DMH ?
-Randy, I do not think there is anyway Johnny can or will answer this. Although, I hope he does.
one thing that gets me is why do you all care?
you obviously just want to try and trip us up
are you trying to demonstrate to us that we can’t since you don’t even try
so what do you want to know
lets get to the area that we all know and if you want go past that then I dont care to go forward
here goes
do we all have to affirm that Jesus is the son of God & raised from the dead yes
Chris, if you don’t mind me asking: what particular church do you line up with? I mean what denomination do you attend? Nathan says he is Presbyterian or attended that denomination. Walkinlove, TRUTH, Lee all belong to branches of the Pentecostal movement. On what grounds do you guys claim to all be brothers, if you all are following God different ways? Lee and others believe in speaking in tongues, maybe even running laps through out the church – Nathan most likely holds many of the TULIP teachings – you…might be Baptist seeing you have slipped a few time cussing. Obviously one cant take this “unity in diversity” to the extreme, seeing this would open the doors for anarchy at its best. What doctrines are fatal? If all, then God pity of all, in none, then all are saved. There has to be a pattern by which we all are the same…is this patters a bunch or rules often created from men and their understanding, or should I accept you as Christ accepted you? Paul said he imitated Jesus, Jesus accepts sinners who lack perfect understanding in doctrine……..should we not do the same or shall we demand certain rules apply before we accept someone.
“If its so difficult to come to a perfect (complete) understanding, then why does Peter mention those that are unlearned ‘wresting’ the true meaning of what is written. If it were impossible to come to a perfect understanding on certain items, then how could they be wrested?”
First, I want to give Joey credit for stepping forward and actually answering the question, and I am not being sarcastic. I respect it.
However, what he is stating is absolutely amazing. Feel free to elaborate if I have misunderstood you:
1. One can achieve perfect understanding of every Biblical matter. Are there limitations to this understanding? I wonder what and under what circumstances?
2. Everyone in Joey’s church (I assume this is Johnny’s church too) has reached this perfect understanding. There are no disagreements. Anyone who has not, and this includes other COCs, are not following God’s word because they disagree with this perfect understanding.
3. Peter is addressing this issue in 2 Peter 3:18. Every aspect of Peter’s understanding of Paul’s epistles (which ones I wonder?) is exactly the same as Joey’s perfect understanding today.
I am not saying you are wrong. However, if you are right I have ton of follow up questions!
Actually, I didn’t have to make up anything. Those were real quotes that Robertson has said in public.
All I did was demonstrate the absurdity of he and his cult by “relocating” them to an extreme situation, and extrapolating from there what would likely happen if they attempted to pull off their hijinks at the Vatican.
And apparently, it was a success because it did get a lot of people thinking about how nutty Robertson and his cult are.
Now, Joey, since you seem to be particularly attentive toward me, maybe you can answer my questions, if you can…
1. If all other doctrines and denominations are “false”, then why should anyone believe that your “Church of Christ” is true?
2. What evidence can you provide demonstrating that your “Church of Christ” is the original church that is described in the New Testament? In answering this you must provide examples of how your “Church of Christ” is 100% in keeping with scriptural and historical evidence.
3. If your “Church of Christ” can not be found in the New Testament, then why are you in a church that is not in the Bible?
Mr. Robertson cannot answer my questions, Joey. Why don’t you take a shot at them instead?
do we have to repent?
now we have a snag
some who are reading this can’t get past this
so should i feel i need to explain other things seeing they are sure to halt given they already refuse basics?
any way yes all have to repent
confess? yes? confess sins ? no! confess belief in Jesus
Be baptized (immersed) for the reason (remission) expressed in Act 2:38
i guess we lost most already unless everyone wants to discuss a lot of stuff you arent planning to do anyway
if you demonstrate that you are honestly trying to obey then ok, but if you all have time to analyze a lot
now on the other hand if you are trying to see if you would be able to obey the system…
do you have to accept that there are no denoms
yes
the church of Christ is all there is
Eph 1:22-23 Eph 4:4-5 Matt 16:18… church of God 1Cor 1:1-2 Joh 17:10 mine are thine thine mine…
do we have to greet each other in the same way…?
you want even come in on the things you can see clearly and you want to act as if kissing is going to hold you up?
all the brethren adhered to some basics
DHM says
1. One can achieve perfect understanding of every Biblical matter. Are there limitations to this understanding? I wonder what and under what circumstances?
There is no time that anyone will ever need to understand all that God has actually covered in the whole of the revelation.
2pet 1:3 says “evrything for life and Godliness”
who will ever have every situation that could possibly ever come up since 2000 years ago
Marshallese do not deal with atheist… and don’t understand the arguments
could they? yes did I teach on it since they were in a place where the generator came on at 8AM and went off at 10 or maybe noon? no
you r mind cannot even come up with all the scenes God has considered
can you understand what you need to obey? yes
will you do it DHM
not so far
can you all understand “no speaking in tongues” if no interpreter ? yes
will the pentecostal on here obey ? no
so now what
“Chris, if you don’t mind me asking: what particular church do you line up with? I mean what denomination do you attend?”
Don’t mind your asking at all Randy.
I’ve never thought of myself as ever belonging or being affiliated with any denomination. From the time I began following Christ in 1996, I have honestly thought of myself as just that: a follower of Christ.
But that doesn’t mean that I don’t appreciate many aspects of a lot of so-called “denominations”. And I don’t even think of them as such, either. In my mind, “denominations” only exist because Christ is so magnificent, that there can be no fully comprehending His wonder and majesty.
But for sake of your question…
I grew up in an independent Methodist church (yes, they exist!) which I didn’t know until years later began as a Quaker congregation (which I would have to say I’m also a bit of). When I was in college I wound up stumbling (literally) into a meeting of the campus’s chapter of Baptist Student Union, and I started hanging out there quite a bit. And then with Elon’s InterVarsity Christian Fellowship. In the fall of ‘96 I chose to follow Christ because my friends had something in their life that I decided that I wanted very much also. Two years later, as an act of demonstrating my faith, I was baptized at the church that sponsored our BSU chapter. It was a Baptist church, but I never joined as a member. To me, I just wanted to be baptized because I wanted to identify with Christ.
Since then I have worshiped Him in Baptist churches, Methodist churches, Presbyterian churches, Pentecostal churches, real Churches of Christ, Roman Catholic churches, Greek Orthodox churches, non-denominational churches…
…the only church that I didn’t hang around for long was the one that was handing out poisonous snakes during a worship service, but that’s another story.
What denomination am I, Randy? I guess I’m a mongrel. A little bit of a lot.
But you know what? From each church that was sincerely seeking after Christ, regardless of which “denomination” it was, I went away appreciating it for something.
So far as choosing for one’s self to follow Christ, then I am a Baptist. So far as earnestly searching through scripture to live a life that He would have me live, I am a Methodist. So far as being caught up in rapturous joy from knowing that I am saved, I am a Pentecostal. So far as reverence and ritual, I am a Presbyterian and a Catholic and an Orthodox. So far as trying to worship in accordance to the New Testament with the greatest priority being to love one another, then I am a real Church of Christ member.
I am at once none of those things and all of those things.
Anywhere that there are those who are looking for Him in loving adoration, and are sincerely trying to follow His command to love one another, I can worship there.
I am a follower of Christ. Nothing more and nothing less. And I am content with that.
However, if you are right I have ton of follow up questions!
DHM do u really think all your follow up questions are an argument for why you will not do what you know
you know there is no real unity if everyone gets to make up stuff but that is what you affirm
and you make out like we really need to spell it out and you know you just want to try and work on stuff that you aren’t about to do anyway.
did yo hear the Baptist preacher who called in sunday and said he is going to study with me?
He knows he is rejecting plain commands
he wants to sit down and try for Jesus sake
Joh 17:20-21 to find what will unify
My questions have been unanswered for days now. I would think questions on prayer would be important to a man who preaches the Bible. Well Johnny do you preach the Bible, if so would you please answer these questions on prayer.
Are we to pray with our hands lifted up, are we to pray with our hands folded, are we to pray with our eyes shut, are we to pray with our eyes open?
Thanks Johnny. I like the response, but just as DHM said, I have follow up questions.
“Before we waste each others time, I know your arguments well as you and I am sure you know the others as well.”
You wanted the question answered and I did. If it wasted your time, then dont get upset at me. If you already know the arguments, then dont ask the question.
ok randy here is an answer on your questions
I have no problem with answering Todd either… he has stopped emailing so I am not discussing with him since the last things I sent you
He never came back… he may be busy
i ask him on our show he declined
i think he has a PHD or is about to get it isn’t he?
any way
does one have to accept the frequency of the LS ?
yes
if you just look at the OT (wise unto NT by OT, 2Tim 3:15)
The Jew easily understood the concept of having a special day.
The OT is designed to get you to the NT Gal 3:24
Jesus is said to be fulfillment of the OT passage Psa 2:7 Paul clearly points out that this is reference to Jesus resurrection day
If people want to treat it as if it were any day fine
but in the NT it is put forth as a very important day
it doesn’t take great knowledge to accept that the KING of the Kingdom was raised on the first day and it is referred to as Lord’s Day… and people were communing on it
so a person is not sure he should keep it every first day
let him take his chances
but it is apart of the doctrine (1Tim 6:3ff) and the first century brethren were coming together and being very strongly rebuked for changing it’s purpose… much less not even communing 1Cor 11:17-30
it is not that hard…
people for ages have hallowed the first day… and yet they reject the ONLY possible frequency that could ever be the source of unity. Every week has a Lord’s day… if frequency is not commanded then once will do… but if that is not acceptable then some frequency must be required. Confusion is the only other possibility
again Moses didnt say every sabbath
he just said keep the sabboth ex 20:7-8
every week has one…
all churches of Christ adhere to this unless they have chosen to reject the plain simple
On April 28, 2009 at 2:29 pm johnny Said:
DMH ?
-Randy, I do not think there is anyway Johnny can or will answer this. Although, I hope he does.
one thing that gets me is why do you all care?
you obviously just want to try and trip us up
This coming from a man who hides cameras in order to catch people and trip them up, claims he uses them to defend himself yet gleefully puts others failures on public airing crowing over them, and hides phone recording for the same reasons is crying about someone trying to trip him up, while at the same time you use everything and anything to trip others and sow discord between then, if it was anything but representing God it would be just funny, but because it is a reflection of God it is only sad!
Now are long are you going to avoid Randy’s question?
Randy my answer is Love God, Love People and tell others the Good News!
I think we arent on the same page, Johnny. I know the point you are laboring, but we are talking about the issues YOU guys have within the church of Christ.
You have those like Wayne Jackson amd many others who do not agree upon each and every doctrine? How many patterns are there? There is a double-standard – you guys preach this but in reality you are just as broken as those you condemn.
Joey answered as I thought he would and it was a good answer, but incomplete in many ways and it also opens up the door for follow up questions. If you ever want to make people open their eyes and see the way – you first need to come forward like Todd and many others and address the problems within the church of Christ.
As James Oldfield says: “Nobody likes to eat out of a dirty bowl.”
“obey the system…”
Mr. Robertson, there is very little else that you could possibly say that would more cry out more the madness of your theology, than what you have said here.
And now that he is with us again, Mr. Robertson, I will give you another opportunity to answer the questions that you are apparently running away from…
1. If all other doctrines are “false”, then why should anyone believe that your “Church of Christ” is true?
2. What evidence can you provide demonstrating that your “Church of Christ” is the church described in the New Testament?
3. And if your “Church of Christ” can not be found in the New Testament, then WHY ARE YOU AND YOUR FOLLOWERS IN A CHURCH THAT IS NOT IN THE BIBLE?!?
If you are going to ask questions of those you consider to be “false doctrine”, then you had better be prepared to answer those same questions when they are flipped onto you!
And the more you resist answering us, when we are asking you those same questions that you taunt others with, the more you are demonstrating that you don’t belong to any church that Christ has established.
I will even go so far as to say that you don’t really believe what it is that you are preaching.
So… answer our questions.
In fact, the more that I think about it…
…the more Johnny Robertson seems to be basing his church on his “feelings”.
Isn’t that the same thing that he has been broadcasting against quite a bit as of late?
Chris, I am not denying patterns and such. There are patterns! We can do as we please, right? But, we cant view the pattern as a means to be saved? We should obey because we love God. I agree with much of Johnny and others on many issues…and dont label them as a cult – why do you? Following standards doesnt make one part of a cult. My beef is with them all holding to various teachings under the banner of unity…when they have many disagreements. This is my biggest problem with them – the churches of Christ. Johnny knows that many disagree on doctrines like the Holy Spirit and Marriage…but they still consider each other as a brother. But dont you dare put music in this class…that will get ya the boot…….this is silly!!!! Some doctrine is treated lightly while others are take to an extreme….no wonder the churches of Christ are declining.
To anyone attending the Martinsville church of Christ:
1.Do you make distinctions among doctrinal errors as far as apostasy is concerned?
2.Is missing every doctrinal mark on any biblical issue tantamount to perverting the gospel ?
3.Either ALL or only SOME doctrinal errors will damn if persisted in long enough, which is true and why?
Btw, the questions above are just a few that Todd Deaver has asked. I am glad to see he has stepped out in and effort to bridge the gap. He has seen ( as I and many others ) how inconsistent some of the teaching/doctrine is applied to fellowship within the churches of Christ. My hope is that others remove their prideful armor and face these facts with an honest heart and deal with them in a Godly manner. Todd, Jay, Phil and Greg all are participating in conversations @ http://graceconversation.com/ which have been under the rug for year, and hopefully others will pull their rugs up too and remove the dirt that they have hidden.
We are not saved by a “pattern” Randy! That’s what it had already turned into under the law as interpreted by the Pharisees.
The law was always intended to point to man’s need for God. But it was never supposed to become thought of as the way to be reconciled with God. Because once that is believed, then it’s inevitable that it becomes a thing based on one’s works. That one must be “faithful” enough to merit God’s mercy and forgiveness.
We will never earn God’s grace. There are none righteous.
When “standards” become more important than the simple but overwhelming knowledge that we don’t have to do anything to earn salvation but acknowledge that we need Christ, then yes: it does become a cult. Or it will ultimately become a cult. When a man is empowered to define how other men must work for a righteousness that they can never achieve, that is absolutely a cult.
That’s what the local “Church of Christ” is, Randy. It’s definition of salvation is determined by Johnny Robertson, not the Bible.
He’s just asserting that somehow he knows “better” than others, and that he’s supposedly “anointed” and must be followed. In truth, the only “anointing” he has is from other “churches” in Texas that keep sending him the money to broadcast on television.
(Speaking of which, maybe Robertson should post his church’s financial statement online so that everyone can scrutinize it. I heard that Robertson said that people who’ve seen it were “laughing” at me. So come one Robertson: why not give the entire world a chance to laugh at me some more? That is, if you can…)
The last thing Robertson and Oldfield seriously want is for those currently under their spell to start reading the Bible on their own without consideration toward whatever Robertson has been demanding they believe. Because if they start to see for themselves that they don’t need to be “faithful” to the impossible extent that Robertson demands, they they will see that they don’t need him and his twisted interpretation at all.
I just don’t understand why he doesn’t answer my questions. If his “Church of Christ” is the only church that matters, then it should be easy enough for him to prove that. But he’s not doing it.
Curious, that…
Chris. Again, you have taken my words the wrong way. I am not saying one is saved by patterns or by observance to laws. I am saying that the bible clearly has New Testament patterns which a Christians life should mirror. The problem is, we have some saying that their interpretation of parts of the pattern must be fulfilled in order for them to see you as saved. This is my only beef with Johnny and others. Johnny knows that many TOP preachers within his ranks hold contrary doctrines on marriage and the Holy Spirit too. Why hide this from the churches and at the same time condemn music. If they can call one a brother who disagrees with them about marriage and the Holy Spirit, then why make music such an issue?? This is my point and Todd Deaver gives many examples of what I already have discovered in the past. Are you denying that we have patterns? Where does law come in with your views? Are we to be living as we chose?
-I am going to attempt to respond to what I think Johnny is saying:
“DHM says
1. One can achieve perfect understanding of every Biblical matter. Are there limitations to this understanding? I wonder what and under what circumstances?
There is no time that anyone will ever need to understand all that God has actually covered in the whole of the revelation.
2pet 1:3 says “evrything for life and Godliness””
- Good. Maybe you can shed some light on what matters you consider disputable or even unnecessary.
“who will ever have every situation that could possibly ever come up since 2000 years ago”
- No one.
“Marshallese do not deal with atheist… and don’t understand the arguments
could they? yes did I teach on it since they were in a place where the generator came on at 8AM and went off at 10 or maybe noon? no”
- What are you talking about?
“you r mind cannot even come up with all the scenes God has considered”
- No doubt.
“can you understand what you need to obey? yes
will you do it DHM
not so far”
- There is no way you could possibly know that information.
“can you all understand “no speaking in tongues” if no interpreter ? yes
will the pentecostal on here obey ? no”
- This is just confusing.
“so now what”
- hopefully you will answer some questions….
Chris, do you side with Billy G., far as him stating one can get to heaven by other paths than Jesus? Do you trust that Jesus is the way and the only way to heaven – the redeemer of sins? Is there a pattern to salvation by which everyone must “hold” to be in the true church? Please understand, I am not trying to present some formula that often comes from writings within the church of Christ. I am merely asking does God require a response of faith… and if so, what does that expressed faith include?
liar, liar , pants on……..does anyone smell smoke?
1Co 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
1Co 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
did the members of the new testament church go into their meeting places with badges for all to see
who held the job of interpreter?
no.
no more than two or three people spoke and if no interpretation was given then they should keep silent.
but some here FORBID to speak in tongues.
you do err not knowing the scriptures.
lee
On April 28, 2009 at 3:07 pm johnny Said:
will the pentecostal on here obey ? no
the real question is will YOU obey?
lee
In all truth there is no one who understands every teaching of God’s word perfectly. Secondly, in all of our endeavors to be righteous we fail, (Rom. 3:10-17). If understanding every doctrine of God’s word correctly is a necessity for salvation then there is no possibility of salvation for anyone.
Qoute from Walley over at http://graceconversation.com/
“Are you denying that we have patterns? Where does law come in with your views? Are we to be living as we chose?”
I believe that the greatest commandment is, as Jesus taught, to “Love one another” and without that, the patterns are meaningless.
In the presence of sincere love for one another however, the patterns can be, and are, quite meaningful.
But the patterns in and of themselves, do become a burden just as the law had by the time of Christ’s ministry.
We just celebrated His resurrection a few weeks ago. When He rose again, the curtain in the temple was torn in two. There would be no more separation between man and God. Those who demand “patterns” for patterns’ sake, are trying to put the curtain back up again, in spite of everything that we know from the New Testament.
Don’t take it that I’m an “agent of chaos” Randy. But I also know fully well from experience that “total control” can be just as evil, if not worse.
“Chris, do you side with Billy G., far as him stating one can get to heaven by other paths than Jesus? Do you trust that Jesus is the way and the only way to heaven – the redeemer of sins? Is there a pattern to salvation by which everyone must “hold” to be in the true church? Please understand, I am not trying to present some formula that often comes from writings within the church of Christ. I am merely asking does God require a response of faith… and if so, what does that expressed faith include?”
Randy, I can express it no better than this:
That Christ is the only way to be reconciled with God. But that it also can not be said that there is any one way to Christ.
I absolutely believe that God gives each person the opportunity to not only seek Him, but to desire to seek Him. He is no respector of persons, after all. And we are told in scripture that “Ask, seek, and ye shall find.”
That is just as much a promise as it is anything else.
I believe that if a person is seeking God, he or she will find God, in the way that He has provided. And it might not be in any way that you or I or anyone else can understand… but is that really important? We should rejoice more that Christ will not let any of His sheep fall away and be lost. How they came to be among His flock in the first place shouldn’t matter to us.
And I believe that in Heaven there will be many, many people to be found, that will come as a dire shock to our earthly senses. Including, yes, some who might not have ever borne the name “Christian” in this life at all.
God and God alone can judge who belongs to Him. We’re not supposed to be doing His job.
All we have to do is demonstrate to the world around us, through our love and our joy and our actions, that we do have Christ in our lives, that others may desire to seek after Him also.
We only need make the most of the time that He has given us.
Does that answer your question?
We will know those who are of Christ by their love. We are to tell people the gospel of Christ, not to harass people. It is their decision not ours to make for them what they choose to do.
I am sorry but I just do not see the love of Jesus coming out of a group of men at a house harassing an elderly woman to the point she feels she has to threaten them with a gun to get them to leave her alone.
If a church does not want to fellowship with another church they don’t have to. If the cofC denomination does not want to fellowship with other church denominations they don’t have to nor does another church denomination have to fellowship with the cofC denomination. But no one has the right to harass others.
Johnny, my questions are still waiting to be answered.
Are we to pray with our hands lifted up, are we to pray with our hands folded, are we to pray with our eyes shut, are we to pray with our eyes open?
Chris, Yes. You did answer my question. But as Joey, you didn’t address everything and you invited more questions with your attempt. But, you at least answered.
Partly, I agree with some of your statements.
Are you saying or suggesting that the church has always had “approved” error? And if so, where did they draw the lines with error? Maybe approved is the wrong word to use…maybe error due to ignorance or not understanding would be a better way to word it…
Chris, I noticed you observed the Lords Supper “a few weeks ago”…why not observe it each Sunday, seeing Sunday is the Lords day?
Johnny, if you are reading this…why is this doctrine one considered fatal if not observed weekly, but other doctrines like matters of the Holy Spirit and marriage are permitted with error? I know you know men, who disagree on these doctrines and still fellowship with each other.
Who sits down and determines one doctrine to be fatal, while looking past others? Explain these rules and principles. I have read writings from “top” conservatives and Todd has too, and they do not always agree on DOCTRINE, but they consider each other as brethren. Why is this hidden from church of Christ assemblies?
I would guess because everyone wants to pretend that they “speak the same things” and never have any disagreements over doctrine – this way, you can say… we aren’t like the denominational world who practice contrary things and have unity in diversity. This, I find to be the major turn off for me and others wanting to know the truth. I wish more like Todd would come forth with honest hearts and stop hiding what we all know. This hiding stuff is nothing but pure pride – as if one has some grip on scripture that everyone else lacks. It’s sad and pathetic. You know, as do I, that I could be more specific with examples “locally” but I will not take that road.
Now that Johnny, Joey, and possibly others have stated that they possess a perfect doctrinal understanding of the scriptures, I think its time for some follow up questions.
29Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? 30And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour? 31I die every day—I mean that, brothers—just as surely as I glory over you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus for merely human reasons, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.”
1 Cor 15:29
- Guys, what are the correct interpretations of the verses above? I assume there is only one, right? Please bring us up to speed.
Also, there is another huge matter y’all need to clear up. I am sure everyone is aware that there are dozens of versions of the CoC (one-cuppers, anti’s, instrumental, using praise teams, no kitchens, etc.) Which one of these groups is correct? The CoC cannot be divided. Do you consider these groups to be lost or just erring brothers? If they are erring brothers, what other areas are people allowed to err in?
Thanks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3QLoNiAXI0
“If a church does not want to fellowship with another church they don’t have to. If the cofC denomination does not want to fellowship with other church denominations they don’t have to nor does another church denomination have to fellowship with the cofC denomination. But no one has the right to harass others.”
You said it Truth.
The “Church of Christ” has as much a right as anyone else to seek God as best they can understand him.
But their right to that ENDS where the right of others to also seek God BEGINS.
I am amazed ( not really ) how this always goes untouched.
It is one thing to claim doctrinal perfection – another to show us. As DMH said; “If they are erring brothers, what other areas are people allowed to err in?”
Not only this, who decides what is fatal error and what is not?
Many church of Christ conservatives allow disagreements over marriage – even disagreements over the Holy Spirit, but don’t dare you bring music in the assembly.
How can my knowledge both be increasing AND without error?
Every bit of knowledge gained replaces a faulty bit, doesn’t it?
(2 Pet 1:5-10) Our assurance against falling comes from growing in the virtues as stated by the Holy Spirit through Peter… and not from the accuracy and precision of our discernment about doctrine.
It is my understanding that only God is perfect and we are left with imperfection. Are the conservative brothers the only ones with perfect theology and the rest of us are misinformed and ignorant (at best) or intentionally disobedient (at worst)? That is some pretty big pants to fill, to be the only ones that ‘get it.’ It is dangerous territory to think one has a perfect grasp on what is the deep, mysterious, and awesome gospel of Jesus Christ.
still no reply john?
with the job situation such as it is…
where do you apply for the job of interpreter?
and then theres the cool name tag you get.
BUGS BUNNY was right.”what a maroon”
lee
Ah faithful once again exposing the theology of the stumbling block, do you not realize that every time your people do these things you temp others to sin, and when they do you are going to reap for that failure?
Matthew 18:6 But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
Now if you want to argue that only children are covered by this passage I will remind you that we are all children of God!
Just know that when you succeed at causing others to stumble you have Satan cheering right along side you!
“Are you saying or suggesting that the church has always had “approved” error? And if so, where did they draw the lines with error? Maybe approved is the wrong word to use…maybe error due to ignorance or not understanding would be a better way to word it…”
Randy,
I’ll say this: there is no such thing, and there never has been, any such of a thing as a “perfect church”. Every church has had error somewhere or another.
And yet, the church as the body of Christ has endured, in countless forms, for two millennia. That’s an awful lot of mercy from God if we aren’t supposed to have any error at all.
And if there ever was a perfect church, and I were to go there, as a matter of conscience I would have to immediately leave it… because it sure as heck would no longer be perfect if I stayed!
“Chris, I noticed you observed the Lords Supper “a few weeks ago”…why not observe it each Sunday, seeing Sunday is the Lords day?”
The way I see it Randy, every day should be the Lord’s day.
I’ve observed the Lord’s supper, or the Eucharist, or whatever it is we may call it, on Sundays. But I have also observed it on Tuesdays, on Wednesdays, on Fridays, and at around 2 a.m. on a Thursday morning.
It doesn’t have to be on Sunday. If we insist that it is, that’s just more pattern theology (remember that Jesus even broke with “pattern” when He healed on the sabbath).
The time is nothing. But the meaning – to remember Him – is what counts.
“Ah faithful once again exposing the theology of the stumbling block, do you not realize that every time your people do these things you temp others to sin, and when they do you are going to reap for that failure?”
And what sin have we caused you to make?
Why is this verse overlooked so often in the church of Christ > 2 Timothy 2:24-25
“Why is this verse overlooked so often in the church of Christ > 2 Timothy 2:24-25″
I’m beginning to wonder if there is a whole ‘nother version of the Bible that the local “Church of Christ” uses. One that has entire verses and chapters ripped out or whited-out or something, because they certainly seem completely ignorant of verses like 2nd Timothy 2:24-25 that are in everyone else’s Bible…
“And the Lord’s servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth…”
Have Johnny Robertson, James Oldfield, faithfull or any other members of “Church of Christ” ever been as Paul describes here?
Never.
Once again, “by their fruits shall ye know them.”
Johnny said on his program that we keep him from harassing other religions. When has Johnny ever gone to Muslim assemblies with his video camera? I have never seen Johnny show on his program that he has ever gone with his camera to as many Muslim assemblies as he has church assemblies. I have never seen Johnny show he has ever gone with his camera to any Muslim assemblies at all. If Johnny wants to show Muslim beliefs are wrong why hasn’t he gone to their assemblies? And I don’t believe Johnny or anyone should be harassing Muslims. Just pointing out that Johnny says we keep him from going to Muslim assemblies with his camera when he has never shown that he ever has in the first place. I don’t believe anyone has the right to harass others, no matter what their religious beliefs are. We are to tell people the gospel of Christ, not to harass people. It is their decision not ours to make for them what they choose to do.
On Chris’ questions / concerns:
–
What proof do you have that your “Church of Christ” is in the Bible, apart from the name… which any person could put on any church sign?
If there is no evidence that your own church is described in the Bible, then why are you in a church that’s not in the Bible?
If all other doctrines are “false”, then how does anyone know that your “Church of Christ” is true?
–
Of *course* the men on these TV shows don’t prove the existence of “their” churches–according to them, “they” don’t have churches. Right? Them proving “their” churches’ existence would make them hypocrites.
So how does one learn what they consider Truth about the churches that they’re in? *Easy.* Tune into the broadcasts, visit the assemblies, whatever. While doing that, open your ears. When they condemn a practice by contrasting it with scripture, is it not probable that they consider Truth to be the scripture they brought up? That’s just logic. That’s how antithesis works. For instance, let’s say they show where the Pentecostals officially claim to be started in the early 1900’s, and then they show the Bible verses where the church-in-the-Bible started about 50 days after Jesus’ death-burial-resurrection, and then they close that thought by stating the Pentecostal church can’t be the church-in-the-Bible because it was started way too late. Isn’t it just simple logic to deduce, “Oh! these men are preaching that the church they’re in must’ve started 2,000 years ago about 50 days after Jesus’ d-b-r” ?
It doesn’t matter whether one loves or hates the TV shows, the hosts, the doctrine, the whatever–the fact remains that these men make it quite clear what the church-they’re-in is like and why they adamantly believe it is absolutely for fact the church of Christ that you read about in the Bible.
I’m not trying to be rude when I ask this, Mr. Chris, I’m being very earnest: how could you *honestly* not have seen this? (Or, if you still don’t, how can you honestly still not see it?)
Good sir Bob,
It’s not that I haven’t seen such a thing.
But it’s more my style to keep questioning and demanding the truth, so as to strip away assumptions, claims, hypocricy and especially expose the base lust for power that too many people – like Johnny Robertson – are consumed with.
Some have said that I have a spiritual gift of discernment. If I do, I guess it comes with that
Truth,
Your last comment begs the question…
Why haven’t Johnny Robertson, James Oldfield, faithful, Micah etc. ever gone and harassed any Jewish synagogues?
Robertson and Oldfield keep citing Paul and how he confronted the religious leaders of his day. If the “Church of Christ” seriously wanted to adhere to scripture, then wouldn’t they be obligated to confront the same religion that Paul did also?
And yes, let’s see them go into an Islamic place of worship, or a Jehovah’s Witness hall, or a Christian Science reading room, or a Mormon church, or a church that considers itself non-denominational (have they ever done that?), or anything other than a Baptist or Methodist or Pentecostal church.
You would think that Robertson et al are obsessed with “getting Baptists”, from how much he screeches against ‘em (again, without ever justifying his own “Church of Christ”, and at this point I don’t think he’s capable of such a thing).
But we know why the “Church of Christ” leaders and their followers won’t be so bold as to “preach the truth” in these other assemblies…
It’s because they are afraid. And because they know that their own doctrine is a thing void and empty.
I am going to pose a question to the members of the local “Church of Christ”, and challenge them to answer it.
Because after studying the matter for a good part of the evening, I don’t believe that they can answer this question, either.
Where in scripture does it say that we are saved through the “church”?
I read in many places where we are saved by Christ’s sacrifice on the cross and our having faith in Him.
But after the past several hours of diligent searching the Bible, nowhere can I find that the church organization has any role, at all, in salvation.
Perhaps I am missing something. If so, I invite the “Church of Christ” to correct my having overlooked it.
But as it stands now, the notion that we are saved through any “church”… simply cannot be found in scripture.
Which is making the idea that we must be saved through the “Church of Christ” specifically, all the more ridiculous.
Chris wants to know
But as it stands now, the notion that we are saved through any “church”… simply cannot be found in scripture.
First no one said this. It is very important to make sure you “take heed how you hear”
The correct inference : (The act or process of deriving logical conclusions from premises known or assumed to be true.
The act of reasoning from factual knowledge or evidence.)
is “all saved are in the church”
If you do not know of the church then you are not being taught correctly, therefore you are not obeying gospel truth, which is what saves (ie leads to correct information whereby one is able to be saved)
Act 2:47
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
added people are found in previous verse 41
Ac 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Jesus is the Saviour of the body & the body is the church (saved are in the church)
Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
all saved in NT were “called out” by Gospel, the called out (of the world)added into the church (ekklesia) are the saved…
the gospel calls on unto the body (the church)
Col 3:15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful. (Col 1:18, 24 the body & church = same & only 1)
chris said
And yes, let’s see them go into an Islamic place of worship, or a Jehovah’s Witness hall, or a Christian Science reading room, or a Mormon church, or a church that considers itself non-denominational (have they ever done that?), or anything other than a Baptist or Methodist or Pentecostal church.
been there done that
chris you need to do some research
I have been here 10 years and you just just picked up the trail
we have debated muslims mormons
JWs want debate nor let us in
you are so in the dark and the people on here read with incredulity as to you willingness to so remain
chris said to Bob
“But it’s more my style to keep questioning and demanding the truth, so as to strip away assumptions, claims, hypocricy and especially expose the base lust for power that too many people – like Johnny Robertson – are consumed with.”
Is this not Chris judging my motives? Can he actually judge my motives?
Well yes he can see fruit which would lead to a conclusion…
But what fruit does he use to prove his above conclusion?
Fruit of Johnny’s “lust for power”
let us examine fruit that we all know is true
I came here from 5 years in 3rd world country in 1997; (Sadly the Lord’s church has less than 10 % of its membership in overseas missions) so I was in the 10% who left pleasures of USA to go seek the lost (power hungry?)
After 5 years of working in Henry Co. to build up the TV broadcast and starting the Starling Ave congregation again, I left it all (my empire)to return for 2 years into the “slum of the Pacific” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ebeye_Island.jpg, where my decline in health from conditions there, demanded our return to stateside health care.
(Conditions so bad that no one from the church of Christ has ever ventured to live there before me or since) (Lust for power?)
2004 returned to Martinsville, to work with James Oldfield and establish works in the neighboring towns states. Both James and I left the comforts of Starling, giving it over to newly graduated Steve Heathington (converted Methodist). James released his salary from Starling over to Steve as I had done to him in 1999 and went out to deep south congregations and raised his living from scratch.
In 2006 I relinquished the newly established Danville work to Norm Fields, and returned to Starling Ave to fill the vacancy left by Steve returning to Ft Worth. By request from me , the Starling Ave congregation gave full salary to Norm, meaning I again must find support to work at Starling in light of all their available funds being given to Norm.
On and on we could go, with me raising Jason a salary, Mark’s salary, Brandon’s salary… and all the while hearing from Chris that I lust for power.
What will Chris say when I leave for the mission fields again in a few years, leaving “my empire” of power behind?
Chris please open your eyes and try and see beyond the anger at being told that you are lost and consider the man made system you are upholding.
I am sadden to have to spend this time in defense before you, but as Paul of old did for 3 chapters (2Cor 10-12) I will do it in order to show that Chris is not in possession of the facts regarding “my lust for power”
Nor does he have a “discernment” of spirit as HE says some say he does (who are the some Chris)
(chris reported that it is said
“Some have said that I have a spiritual gift of discernment. If I do, I guess it comes with that”
Johnny, we didn’t ask if you have debated any of these religions. The question we are asking is why haven’t you gone with your video camera to Muslim assemblies, Jewish assemblies, Jehovah’s Witness assemblies…etc. as you have gone to other assemblies.
A lot of your focus on your program the other night was on Muslims. I would think if you want to show Muslim beliefs are wrong you would go with your camera to many of their assemblies? Notice I said assemblies. You have not shown that you have ever gone with your camera to Muslim assemblies. Why not? Is it because you are afraid?
Mr. Robertson,
You are using the same circular reasoning to justify your “Church of Christ” as being the only “real” church… that the very same “evolutionists” that you have very publicly opposed, have used for many years to support their claims.
I would have thought that you would know better. Apparently not.
If you have ever sought to debate in an Islamic mosque, then where is the video of that? Certainly that would earn you some kind of street cred, if you can prove that you have done that.
“Is this not Chris judging my motives? Can he actually judge my motives?”
You judge the motives of others all the time.
You seem to have a very serious problem when others flip the very same questions or situations onto you, that you inflict on others Mr. Robertson.
So when are you going to answer the questions?
1. If all other doctrines are “false”, then why should anyone believe that your “Church of Christ” is true?
2. What evidence can you provide demonstrating that your “Church of Christ” is the church described in the New Testament?
3. And if your “Church of Christ” can not be found in the New Testament, then WHY ARE YOU AND YOUR FOLLOWERS IN A CHURCH THAT IS NOT IN THE BIBLE?
You seem unusually evasive of answering these very simple questions, Mr. Robertson. I don’t see why you should not answer them… especially since you did promise earlier that you would no longer answer me or apparently take me seriously at all. Yet today you have obviously taken me very seriously indeed.
Is there something about my questions that frightens you, Mr. Robertson?
You shouldn’t be afraid, if you really have Christ with you.
So… answer them. Quit wasting your time and our time, and prove to us that the “Church of Christ” that you represent is not only biblical, but the only true church.
And Mr. Robertson,
What you have done for your “church” will not matter in eternity.
What have you done for Christ?
I’m going to say something that I observed a while back, but have thus far held my tongue on…
Johnny Robertson, you do not preach Christianity.
What you do preach, is Churchianity.
And there is a very significant difference between the two.
On April 26, 2009 at 1:08 pm johnny Said:
thanks chris
you said
Think about it, if you can: you have yet to build up any significant case for your own “church” purely on the strength of its own doctrine and beliefs.
this comes from a man who couldn’t go 30 minutes to keep his word on the free time given him to talk about the truth. Instead he had to praise schoooooders cat and show himself on the pot during a religious discussion.
This will be my last post to chris.
I will pay attention to some of the others if I see something new.
I am putting you and the shiek together as that is where you belong.
do you tell lies because you are a liar?,
or are you a liar because you lie?
those pants are so hot we may see spontaneous human
combustion.
lee
Lee,
The sad thing is, Robertson has lied about so much else, I don’t know why anyone should believe anything in his recent post about his “work”.
From what I understand, he was recently talking again about about how one local church was, as he put it, engaging in child pornography. Robertson claimed he had seen the original recording of it.
And he is lying about that.
Because I have seen the absolutely original, full-resolution recording in question.
And it does not show anything that violates either good taste or state law.
As I said before, Robertson is more obsessed about spreading Churchianity – the religion of his own church – than he is about serving Christ. Because no sincere follower of Jesus Christ would stoop as hideously low as Robertson and his followers have done.
“On May 2, 2009 at 3:50 pm Chris Knight Said:
And Mr. Robertson,
What you have done for your “church” will not matter in eternity.
What have you done for Christ?
I’m going to say something that I observed a while back, but have thus far held my tongue on…
Johnny Robertson, you do not preach Christianity.
What you do preach, is Churchianity.
And there is a very significant difference between the two.”
Why don’t you tell us about the difference Chris? While you are coming up with response on that let me give you something to think about.
Paul had been persecuting the church and encountered Jesus on the road to Demascus. Ac 22:7 And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
So persecuting the church is the same as persecuting Jesus. Would it not stand to reason that serving the church would be serving Jesus?
faithful said: Why don’t you tell us about the difference Chris?
faithful, Chris already did.
As I said before, Robertson is more obsessed about spreading Churchianity – the religion of his own church – than he is about serving Christ.
On April 30, 2009 at 1:56 pm faithfull Said:
“Ah faithful once again exposing the theology of the stumbling block, do you not realize that every time your people do these things you temp others to sin, and when they do you are going to reap for that failure?”
And what sin have we caused you to make?
This is not about me, but it is about those who are filmed without their knowledge at their homes for rebroadcast while at the same time smiling and shaking their hands and asking them to come to church.
Those same people who then find out about being used by “christians” for hidden purposes will never attend the CoC because of the trick that was done to them.
They will harden their hearts to the message you are attempting to bring, why are you willing to do this to them?
On April 30, 2009 at 2:01 pm Randy Said:
Why is this verse overlooked so often in the church of Christ > 2 Timothy 2:24-25
Because like every other denomination they have been selective in their choice from the Biblical Menu.
faithfull,
“So persecuting the church is the same as persecuting Jesus. Would it not stand to reason that serving the church would be serving Jesus?”
If you had some grasp of history, you might realize that what you have just written here was the basis of centuries of persecution and mass murder. All committed on the part of those who insisted that they were “favored of God” over all others.
And if you can not realize that, well… I guess that explains a great deal about why the local “Church of Christ” cult feels no shame about how it is not acting in a Christ-like manner.
about as selective as this site
what happened to knight shaik url?
did i get in ban zone?
ruling please
foul foul foul
oh I forgot the ref is a presbyterian
grace covers all his error
oh well
see who comes to dinner
Mr. Robertson,
1. If all other doctrines are “false”, then why should anyone believe that your “Church of Christ” is true?
2. What evidence can you provide demonstrating that your “Church of Christ” is the church described in the New Testament?
3. And if your “Church of Christ” can not be found in the New Testament, then WHY ARE YOU AND YOUR FOLLOWERS IN A CHURCH THAT IS NOT IN THE BIBLE?
Per your own statement in the past few minutes on live television, I am “noble” for questioning you.
So why don’t you be just as noble, and answer the questions?
Are you evading them, Mr. Robertson?
Or are you actively working to exploit, as you also put it tonight, “gullibility”?
you lied john…… fess up
lee
Mr. Robertson,
We have bent over backwards to accommodate you on this blog so that we might have a voice of the opposition involved. When you felt like you were being mistreated, we made an announcement requesting that people treat each other better. And yet you persist on coming in here and claiming that you are somehow being mistreated.
Nobody deletes old messages here. Your youtube URL is still there, like it has always been. We don’t have or take the time to go through and cherry pick messages to delete.
http://answeringchurchofchrist.wordpress.com/2009/04/19/church-of-christ-doctrine-part-ii/#comment-14490
You’ve done this before – making erroneous claims that just proves that you often don’t look before you talk. We would suggest that you do as James suggests in James 3, and learn to control the tongue – or in this case, the keyboard. In other words, just take five minutes to scroll through responses before you cry “foul”.
Thank you,
The management
Johnny Robertson just claimed on his show that the biblical instruction for a “holy kiss” is only meant for “Oriental” people.
Awright, Mr. Robertson, ’splain this…
WHERE exactly in the Bible does it say that the “holy kiss” is only intended for certain cultures?
In fact, scripture is quite clear that there are no cultural divisions at all in Christ!
Here. Read these. You should know these anyway…
- 1 Corinthians 12:13
For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.
- Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
- Colossians 3:11
Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.
Why are you bringing a division to the church by demanding something that is not scriptural, Mr. Robertson?
johnny, you just brought up the difference between the two baptisms and that the first one,johns wasnt enough since the death of jesus.
seems the apostles except paul might have wanted to do that for the record.
did i miss that?
lee
Good point lee.
Re: holy kiss, isn’t it interesting that these folks who condemn everyone else for not following the NT exactly turn around and do the same thing on issues like the “holy kiss” (it’s not the only one), and then pull out the “culture” card in order to excuse their lack of consistency.
It’s just further proof that they are, at the bare bones, no different than the rest of us – beggars looking for bread. Thank God for His grace, which will save even Mr. Robertson, and yet which he oddly ridiculed above.
Speaking of guillibility, a friend commented tonight…
What does it say of how gullible someone is who believes a “Church of Christ” is a church really of Christ, just because of what it says on the church sign?
I think Johnny made some good points last night. If we sit back and allow every wind of dotrine to raise its ugly head, then are we not causing the problem?
Should we sit by and allow the Jim Jones’s of the world lead people astray?
What is so bad about spot-lighting those we think to be false teachers?
Do we not do Johnny this way on here? How can we tell Johnny he is wrong for doing something we do ouselves? If we can slam Johnny on things we believe to be wrong – does he not have this same right?
I have noticed no matter what Johnny teaches on TV, most on here pick it apart, trying to find something negative to say. We get upset that Johnny spot-lights things he believes to be wrong and say he shouldnt, but then we do the same thing…
Johnny does not have the right to harass people as he does at church as they worship or at their homes. People do have the right to worship as they want without being harassed.
If Johnny thinks a group is a dangerous cult he can call the authorities and let them do their job.
But Randy…
What exactly is it that differentiates so-called “truth” – no matter who espouses it – from what is insisted to be “false”?
You said,
“What is so bad about spot-lighting those we think to be false teachers?”
That’s just it: we think that they’re false teachers.
WHAT precisely qualifies something to be true, and what would disqualify a thing so as to make it false?
I will tell you why I, for one, do believe that what Johnny Robertson, James Oldfield and their cult are doing is very wrong and false…
I do not see them exhibiting the quality of Christ-like love.
They can talk about Christ all they want to. But without the requisite love toward others – especially those that they are out to “defeat destroy” – then everything that they do in the name of Christ amounts to absolutely zilch!
It is just as Paul wrote in 1st Corinthians 13:1,
If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.
Were he to sincerely yield to God, that his eyes might be opened and that he would at last see and realize the hateful error that he is preaching and turn from it, and genuinely embrace love toward others as Christ would have us all do, then I do not doubt that God could yet use Robertson and Oldfield.
But as they are now…
…Robertson, Oldfield and their followers are full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
wrong randy,
i think most would agree that there are people in every denomination who do and teach wrong things.
and its fine to point it out. but you are making an incorrect comparison. we dont condemn everyone because of the few. johnny dosent allow anyone else into heaven.
he simply uses the few to condemn the whole.
here is what you said.
Do we not do Johnny this way on here? How can we tell Johnny he is wrong for doing something we do ouselves?
what is this we stuff?
you are clearly backing old john.
ok with me. ive tried several time to shake you
with no results.
dont sit on the fence.
lee
Randy wrote:
“I am amazed ( not really ) how this always goes untouched.
It is one thing to claim doctrinal perfection – another to show us. As DMH said; “If they are erring brothers, what other areas are people allowed to err in?”
- well another weekend gone by, hence another week that this issue goes untouched.
-Johnny, faithful, Joey?
…….?
Lee, I can sit where I please
for now, yes…I am on the fense…hurts too. I dont have to pick sides and I wont. As you all pointed out, we are all wrong on issues….
Chris raises some good questions and picked up on me typing “think”….because we all do this to some degree. You THINK Johnny is wrong, so you point it out. Johnny thinkhs others are wrong and points it out. My beef with you guys is that you act like you have the right to do this, but Johnny doesnt. If you can come on here and put his name world-wide on the net, then dont be fussing if he takes his camera into some church. If nothing is in there to hide, then why even make such a big deal about it. The only reason one would want to forbid being on camera is because they cant back up what they preach and dont want it known. That is the only reason you guys on here use these fake names too. You hide behind this blog slamming on Johnny, then say he cant do others as you do him. How silly!! I wish more men would hit some of these churches and make them or test them to see if they are preaching truth. This is why so many churches are out there now, because men like you allow this to go on, while condmening Johnny and others. Would you have spoke uot against Jim Jones? You seem to be willing to allow everything, but Johnny and the church of Christ. Nathan, if you can answer, then come forth and do so. Chris is the only one here that have guts enough to use his real name. I may not agree with him at times, but least he doesnt hide behind a wall throwing rocks at somebody….
Randy said: The only reason one would want to forbid being on camera is because they cant back up what they preach and dont want it known.
Reply: I believe people at these churches hear what is being said and can ask anyone else what they they think, without it having to be Johnny who they ask. Doesn’t look like they are hiding what they preach since they do preach it.
Randy said: I wish more men would hit some of these churches and make them or test them to see if they are preaching truth.
You guys are looking more like the mafia, wanting to hit churches.
If Johnny wants to try to speak to someone there are proper ways to go about doing such, harassment is not such a way.
If a church believes Johnny is looking for trouble they have the right to refuse to have anything to do with him and tell him to stay away.
Again, Johnny does not have the right to harass people as he does at church as they worship or at their homes. People do have the right to worship as they want without being harassed.
If Johnny thinks a group is a dangerous cult he can call the authorities and let them do their job.
Randy,
I just want to respond to some of what you have stated above so you know where I am coming from:
“My beef with you guys is that you act like you have the right to do this, but Johnny doesn’t.”
- speaking for myself, I think Johnny has every right in the world to point this out.
“then don’t be fussing if he takes his camera into some church.”
- I disagree with him doing this. He can publicly discuss and debate issues, but why use such classless and childish methods? He has to understand that he is doing more harm than good by stalking and interrupting people that likely do not care what he thinks. I would have the same outlook if ANY denomination was doing this.
“The only reason one would want to forbid being on camera is because they can’t back up what they preach and don’t want it known.”
- Honestly, I do not think this is true. Some people are just not that interested in him and others do not want to be bothered. They have rights as well.
“That is the only reason you guys on here use these fake names too.”
- I doubt this too. Maybe some people just do not want him showing up on there church doorstep with a camera! I post my name as my initials. It just a blog habit. I do not live anywhere near Johnny or his church. I post here because I enjoy the discussing religious principles, and the coc in particular hits a nerve close to home.
“Would you have spoke uot against Jim Jones?”
- Yes. Mass-suicide is not a good idea! I think we can all agree on that. I don’t think it’s fair at all to compare Johnny with Jim Jones or other “death cult” leaders. I simply disagree with most hard line Coc teachings. I am not trying to condemn their beliefs.
“You seem to be willing to allow everything, but Johnny and the church of Christ.”
- No, the Coc is just something I am very familiar with due to my upbringing. Also, I feel Johnny has the right to practice his religion how he sees fit, as long as he doesn’t harass or harm others. The thing that makes Johnny unique is that he is claiming to represent “the Lord’s One True Church”, along with the “one true” interpretation of the Bible. This is a very difficult claim to prove. Many have made it throughout history, and all seem to fall short in the end. Along with his confrontational tactics, this is the main point of controversy I have with people like Johnny, albeit a big one!
Ummm..Randy-I have never hid behind anything-I use my real name, real blog, and real thoughts
I know I have not been on here as much as I used to, but life has been pretty crazy…
I have been born and raised in the Church of Christ, but I cannot and will not condone Johnny’s actions or the way he goes about things. Nor do I condone all of what Chris does or has done (I thought the story was out of line), which I think he knows b/c I have spoken out before-but he still respects me. Johnny wrote me off a long time ago, ignored me, and would not answer my questions-what does that say for the truth? And no, I think you are wrong in saying that that the only reason someone would not want a hidden camera in their place is this: “The only reason one would want to forbid being on camera is because they cant back up what they preach and dont want it known.” There are so many violations and It only promotes division and not unity-and the only reason they are doing it is not to “dialogue” but to show how they are so right and prove everyone else wrong. What good does that do? Especially in a country where only about 17% of the people in America actually attend church??!! Why go into churches where Jesus is already being preached, and not to those who are not going anywhere? It is behavior like this that turn people completely away from God because it lacks of any kind of love, compassion, or integrity. I don’t believe it is why Jesus went all the way to a cruel cross as a perfect person to die for our sins. To me, it only puts stumbling blocks in people’s way. It is one thing to firmly believe in something-it is completely another to force that on everyone else as a fear tactic. That is just not the way to bring people to Christ, and it is clear that they are wrapped up more in an institution than of Christ. I am afraid they are not the only ones, but it saddens me when people so greatly miss the point of who Jesus was and why He came.
I’m not against you, Randy (I am not actually against anyone one here-just certain behaviors and actions)-but you might want to think before you make sweeping statements. I really can’t ever figure out where you stand, and can’t understand why you would condone his behavior of sneaking in cameras & harassing people the way they do. Life is too short and too many people don’t know Jesus’ name for anyone to be going and harassing followers of Jesus who we might not agree with…over telling people who have never EVEN heard of God His incredible Good News. I really witnessed that when I was in China-I can’t tell you how much that REALLY changes your perspective.
It is one thing to preach against false doctrine, teachers, etc-but when you go harass people is where I have draw the line-for ANYone, not just these guys. Also, when “you” (in general) get so wrapped in that, in being right, in proving everyone else wrong that you miss actually sharing the love of grace of Christ and people want absolutely nothing to do with you-then I would say you have missed the point, and need to actually listen when people are pointing that out…but these guys won’t-they just plow on through, accusing opposition of not being in Christ, of being lost, making up names, etc. meanwhile online creating division instead of actually bringing people TO Christ. I wish you and they could see that.
Anyway, those are my 2 cents for now…I have to get back to figuring what I am going to do next in life!
Hope you are all blessed today~
Randy,
Robertson does not allow himself and his “church” to be held to the same scrutiny that he demands of others. Is that not hypocrisy?
Notice that to date he still has not answered the questions that I and others have posed to him.
What is he trying to hide?
Three topics. First:
Thank you for answering, Mr. Chris. I’m concerned now, however, about the fact that you keep asking Johnny there your questions, yet you replied to me that you’ve already seen his answers. Sooo… what good is it to “keep questioning and demanding” and then saying he’s wasting everyone’s time …if (on TV and whatever) he’s already answered?
And second:
I couldn’t help but notice this. Not like I’m trying to pick on Chris but here I am quoting him again, ha ha.
–
They can talk about Christ all they want to. But without the requisite love toward others – especially those that they are out to “defeat destroy” – then everything that they do in the name of Christ amounts to absolutely zilch!
–
I saw earlier where Johnny gave a bunch of rhetoric on his empire. He pointed out various actions of a “giving” nature.
Then Chris followed this up with statements like “What you have done for your ‘church’ will not matter in eternity. What have you done for Christ?” and “The sad thing is, Robertson has lied about so much else, I don’t know why anyone should believe anything in his recent post about his ‘work’.” Honestly? It’s looking to me like you don’t want to be fair. You ask a man what he’s done, and when he answers, you don’t even want to believe him. An unanswerable question can’t be satisfied… But maybe you knew that, too, already, I don’t know.
And third:
I poked around and saw Chris’ blog with the whole April Fool’s Day prank and everything. You said all those quotes were for real? When did Johnny say he was God? I really wanna see that! Like, you know, full context and everything? That’d be great, thanks!
Bob, what are your thoughts about Johnny harassing people at church and at their homes?
Bob,
Many people have told me that Robertson has at various times claimed to be God. Not on television but words to the effect of “I am the God of this church”.
Enough people have come to me with that bit of information, that I’m inclined strongly to believe it.
When Robertson equates himself to Jesus, the Holy Spirit, Paul etc. on television (which he has done) then it’s hard not to see him making such a boast.
And I don’t care what he believes. As I said before, every person has a right to seek God as he or she best can. But when Robertson and his cult take to actively harassing others so as to try to deprive them of their rights to also seek God, then there is a very serious problem.
Curiously, Robertson has not demonstrated with anywhere near as equal a zeal why his own “Church of Christ” is the true church that he claims it is, as he has in trying to prove why all others are “false”.
And I still find that most interesting, that he doesn’t want to explain that to us.
Heck, the Seventh Day Adventists who have been broadcasting lately on WGSR have made a much more compelling – and far more polite – rationale for their own denomination’s existence. I may not necessarily agree with their theology, but at least they aren’t out trying to bully those who don’t believe as they do.
Wouldn’t surprise me at all if they’ve been enjoying a lot more people checking ‘em out locally, while Robertson’s cult is petering away from him.
if (on TV and whatever) he’s already answered?
Umm sorry but the questions we have asked Johnny have yet to be answered for the past two weeks on here or on his program.
On May 4, 2009 at 11:23 am Randy Said:
Lee, I can sit where I please
for now, yes…I am on the fense…hurts too. I dont have to pick sides and I wont. As you all pointed out, we are all wrong on issues….
Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling Randy and make no apologies for it!
Chris raises some good questions and picked up on me typing “think”….because we all do this to some degree. You THINK Johnny is wrong, so you point it out. Johnny thinkhs others are wrong and points it out. My beef with you guys is that you act like you have the right to do this, but Johnny doesnt.
Lets “Think” about what you just said, Mr. Robertson goes into bodies of believers and makes every attempt to destabilize them through methods that at best are misguided and at worst a total violation of God’s rules for operating. His followers do the same thing. I watched in disbelief as Mark recorded people while asking them to come visit the CoC, he then used those recordings to make hay claiming that their churches were unimportant. The bottom line is those people realized that others will make it to heaven and not just them, thus to answer yes would violate that belief. Mark took that thought process and twisted it to prove something totally different in an attempt to show the CoC as the only church.
JR also makes every attempt to pull people out of those Churches using fear tactics and sowing discord between believers. Note his methods, he goes after the Pentecostals one week pushing every baptism hot button in an attempt to get the baptists going yeah that’s right, then the next he is pounding on the baptists and acting like he agrees with other churches when going after things like born in sin or once saved always saved. I laugh every time they pull out the memory gift when going after a believer in the gifts, they use a passage when they do not believe the Holy Spirit is even around anymore. That gift was given to the Apostles to build the text of the NT. Yet they misuse it to trap others.
If you can come on here and put his name world-wide on the net, then dont be fussing if he takes his camera into some church.
I have zero problems if they ask to bring in a camera, and I have zero problem if people say no to them. Simply because they will edit and use selective parts to prove false teaching and twist things. I recall watching the snip it that Dan Parker was shown saying he had studied all the scripture, man I thought that was pretty arrogant statement to make. Then I found out that the real truth was the very next sentence he was much more humble saying he did not have perfect knowledge or something to that effect. Hearing the complete statement was totally different then the edited statement that JR used. It is a perfect example of twisting what people say. If I recorded you at work or out of your home you can be sure I would get information that I could slice and dice and make you look like Satan himself!
If nothing is in there to hide, then why even make such a big deal about it.
See my examples of use of tape out of context above!
The only reason one would want to forbid being on camera is because they cant back up what they preach and dont want it known.
CoCers theology is arguments, they train to debate, pastors are trained to help people grow in love, thus the ability of a pastor to debate is limited because they have never been trained to do so. Thus the contest is slanted in the favor of the CoC out of the gate, since they have their rebuttal ready before hand and the average pastor has never seen what the CoC believe. If I was trained at tennis and you walked onto the court knowing the rules of the game but never having played could you play well? The answer is no!
That is the only reason you guys on here use these fake names too.
I “hide” to protect my family from the harassment they would get at the hands of the storm trooper tactics of recorded phone calls to the house, and the fact that my wife was stalked once makes me very careful to avoid those who would bring that environment back to her. If they do tract me down I will make a be line to the judge to swear out restraining orders on every one of them! And if they violate them I will put the lot of them in jail and lose no sleep over it!
You hide behind this blog slamming on Johnny, then say he cant do others as you do him. How silly!!
Really, how many here have shown up and tried to drive his membership away? We give an answer to him, you make not agree with the answer, that is your right but he is answered and in a form that allows his teaching to be examined in detail without the fast and lose element that he uses on the set. This ability to think on his feet is nullified with research into the context of his scripture quotes, something most people could not do in 10 minute segments.
I wish more men would hit some of these churches and make them or test them to see if they are preaching truth.
Truth??? Like Ezra 10 being used to justify making people break a second marriage and return to their first? Ezra 10 is clearly nullified by the NT, race and religious belief is no longer a factor in marriage. And Ezra 10 was clearly about racial purity and religious purity of the Jews. Show me one example in the NT of people returning to first marriages? There is none, but the hypercons use Ezra 10 because they need to give an answer, it’s not important that it destroys yet another home, it is important they have an answer! That’s the truth you want?
This is why so many churches are out there now, because men like you allow this to go on, while condmening Johnny and others.
And the CoC is just and divided over issues they see as important, the unity will not come from them! They are simply another denomination bent on forcing their believes on others, they difference is they are trained only for that purpose.
Would you have spoke uot against Jim Jones?
If he was doing the same things JR was and I was around yes. If any body of believers place a man on a throne they are in danger of the same fate!
You seem to be willing to allow everything, but Johnny and the church of Christ.
Jr can preach to his congregation his my way or the hell way theology all he wants, but when he goes after others and tries to cause them to sin and then uses that sin as proof of his theology I draw the line!
Nathan, if you can answer, then come forth and do so. Chris is the only one here that have guts enough to use his real name. I may not agree with him at times, but least he doesnt hide behind a wall throwing rocks at somebody….
David was a coward by your standards was he not?
On May 4, 2009 at 11:23 am Randy Said:
Lee, I can sit where I please
for now, yes…I am on the fense…hurts too. I dont have to pick sides and I wont. As you all pointed out, we are all wrong on issues….
Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
is that out of context?
lee
Katherine, I realize you aren’t hiding behind some walls, nor do I consider you a stone-thrower. That is why I said “most” on this blog.
I also am not saying that I entirely agree with everything Johnny does. But what he does is not much different from what others do on this blog towards him. Plus, what does it really hurt to allow questions and things in Church? Why shouldn’t I be able to go to ANY assemble and question their beliefs and doctrine? Maybe the cameras are a bit underhanded, but what does it really hurt?
Lee, actually it is out of context. You are taking that and making it suit your position on one side of the fence as if everything you say is right. Can both sides of the fence be right….or is the right side only where you stand? See, you slam Johnny for making these claims when you do the same yourself. When I said I am on the fence, I meant, I am in a position that I question many things in many churches and undecided on some issues. Give me some time, Lee. Maybe one day I will get to the side you’re own – just not as smart as you yet.
You make good points WIL. I still think we treat Johnny the same way he treats others. I agree, most could not handle him in person, because he is well schooled in debating and such. And him ignoring some questions on here reveals his weakness.
DHM and myself have ask them questions that they dodge, and it is obvious why Johnny will not address them. Simply because he cant. He will say he can, but saying something and doing it, is two different things.
Don’t believe me, lets ask again:
Johnny, when the church of Christ ( conservatives branch ) says we are to be of the same mind – speak the same things, are you saying that we must all reach perfect understanding and practice of every doctrine of scripture before we die, or else be damned?
Also, Johnny, address the things DHM said. Okay, now watch these go untouched. The only way he will answer these is to answer with some “spin” meaning he may answer but answer with an answer that evades the question. Its s simple debate tactic. You give an answer to a question, without addressing the real answer. If he does this, we have follow up questions.
I am convinced Johnny cant deal with certain questions that relate to the division within his own branch, and I am convinced that he CAN answer most denominational preachers – its not that hard to do, when you study their doctrine and study ways to kill their each and every position. I have studied this way myself, but is this how God wants us to approach scripture?
“On May 3, 2009 at 9:01 pm Chris Knight Said:
Johnny Robertson just claimed on his show that the biblical instruction for a “holy kiss” is only meant for “Oriental” people.”
Really , are Russians oriental now? Some world traveler, LOL
“And I don’t care what he believes. As I said before, every person has a right to seek God as he or she best can. But when Robertson and his cult take to actively harassing others so as to try to deprive them of their rights to also seek God, then there is a very serious problem.”
Chris if you don’t care what he believes why do you keep asking him questions? It seems that you do care and that you are the one trying to hide the gospel
Btw, all one needs to do is go over to http://graceconversation.com/ and you will quickly discover how fragile the arguments from conservatives are…
Johnny and others could easily go there and refute the claims from the “progressives” but how many do you see there, defending their exclusive patternism? I have read much of the comments there and its pretty clear that the conservatives aren’t making a good case, which will end up causing more conservatives to move to a more grace centered theology, which is exactly what needs done.
On May 5, 2009 at 6:53 am Randy Said:
Katherine, I realize you aren’t hiding behind some walls, nor do I consider you a stone-thrower. That is why I said “most” on this blog.
I also am not saying that I entirely agree with everything Johnny does.
So what do you agree with, and what do you disagree with? I am curious to know.
But what he does is not much different from what others do on this blog towards him.
Now I am sorry Randy but that is a lie, pure and simple. Now if the spoof Chris did on April 1st was done every day then maybe we would be like Mr. Robertson. I have yet to see anyone here purposely work to cause another to sin and then crow about it!
Plus, what does it really hurt to allow questions and things in Church?
That depends on the heart behind the question, if you are really seeking answers and are not asking the question to try and bring down the Pastor then the question is helpful and builds the body up. If however you walk into a building bent on “defeating and destroying” the people there then your question is poisoned from the heart! While you may not see it as such the difference is worlds apart!!!!!
Why shouldn’t I be able to go to ANY assemble and question their beliefs and doctrine?
Nothing depending on how you do it, if you secretly record it, edit it to gain the best information out of context to try and bring down the Pastor then you are attacking the authority of God!
Romans 131Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
Now the above is used as part of what Paul said about authority on the earth and was primarily directed at civil authority but the principle is the same.
Maybe the cameras are a bit underhanded, but what does it really hurt?
See Romans above! Sin is sin, no matter the sin.
Did David honor Saul? Does God have the power to destroy false teachers? Is he asleep on his throne? I believe he still does have the power to deal with false teachers and does not need us to assume his roll to do so!
As for throwing stones, they landed in my yard, I just tossed them back to the owners who make war on the body!
Randy, at one time you tried fooling people on here to think you were totally against Johnny and tried to get people on here to team up with you to go to Johnny’s church. But that didn’t work. As DMH and WIL said people don’t want Johnny and his storm troopers harassing people they care about. Since that didn’t work you have said you are on the fence for well over a year now.
You have made comments asking Johnny and the others like him that if people who don’t attend a cofC denomination who have not come to the same understanding as you guys (as if yours and the cofC understanding is the correct understanding and everyone else’s isn’t) should you guys condemn us. You have said that you are against Johnny’s tactics and turn right around and say there is nothing wrong with Johnny going to churches with his camera harassing people. You have acted as if you accept people who attend other denominations then turn right around and act as if you’ve had some revelation that all those in other denominations are truly condemned and acted as if you were so heart broken over it. Randy read this part very close – I do not believe a word you say anymore.
You guys act as if people at other churches never ask preachers anything and act as if no one reads the Bible themselves. I really don’t believe that is true.
dont even try to use self deprecation as a way out.
you know that johnny is scattering the flock and
confusing the unlearned.
it is sinful to hurt those who are weak and that is what he does.
you know this is true.
if he were out just preaching the gospel(you remember that command right?)that would be great. but that is not his focus is it? he disobeys jesus command and has twisted it to his own ends.
you dont have to agree with my views of what Christianity is but you should measure what your position in defending him. would YOU do to the church what HE would if he could? kill it.
if so than your being honest. if not, step away from him.
lee
No, it is not a lie WIL ! We do the same things as Johnny. How can we talk about him and then act like he cant do others this way. Matter of fact, the net is much broader than their show, so we have done more.
And Truth, I never attempted to play against Johnny, in order to get you guys to come to Martinsville church of Christ. That is about the silliest thing I have heard. I do think you guys would be surprised if you attended there one Sunday. He wouldn’t call you out there and put you on the spot. I would be there now, but I know Johnny would not allow someone holding “progressive” views to fellowship there.
You want to know where I stand on the issues WIL. If you mean by that, what I believe the bible to teach, I side with the progressive side within the church of Christ. I very much believe the same things as Katherine. We may hold some slightly different views on Johnny’s approach and on music, but most likely we agree on everything else. She see’s the importance of communion each Sunday as do I, but we both don’t play God demanding one treat it like some law that MUST be obeyed. She doesn’t approach this from a legalistic POV, neither do I.
I do see patterns in scripture, but should we treat them like laws written on stone, or should we obey them because they are written on our hearts. And everyone ( including me ) has not reached perfection in each and every doctrine, no matter what they claim….we all grow……………
Like I said before, I finished with this stuff. Meaning I have no plans to attend church until I make some sense out of this. Either everyone is going to heaven or there are only some who make it……and those should be people marked with unity, not people marked with countless denominations all teaching contrary things under the banner of unity. They all cant be right!!
7th Request: Johnny, when the church of Christ ( conservatives branch ) says we are to be of the same mind – speak the same things, are you saying that we must all reach perfect understanding and practice of every doctrine of scripture before we die, or else be damned?
Guys, I will be straight forward with you. I am not here to take sides with you guys nor Johnny, so I will call like I see it no matter who it is….
Ok. Here is what confuses me and others. You have the Pentecostals rolling around on the floors in their assemblies…even running the church isles. Some even jumping pews and acting in all sorts of manners that in no way resembles worship, but does resemble madness and cult like behavior. I am almost 100% sure Katherine doesn’t agree with this stuff, but she seems to accept it when she doesn’t say its wrong. WIL, TRUTH and Lee all of this movement and I am sure have been in worship services and seen “the bizarre” behavior. Then you guys have leaders teaching this health wealth and prosperity gospel too. Guess Paul didn’t know about that in his day, seeing he was tenting and wasn’t living a rich mans life. Jesus must have forgot this too, seeing he didn’t preach this garbage.
Why are you guys with a church that acts this way? There isnt anything hinted in the bible about most of the garbage being sold in the Pentecostal church.
“That depends on the heart behind the question”
You can read hearts? Mr Cleo?
“And the shame of it is, all these stories I’ve been posting about what the churches of Christ can be like, and our local guys just don’t seem to get it. Their belief system is totally wrapped up in proving others wrong, rather than being a “pleasing aroma” that will attract people (2 Cor 2:14-16). ”
You think giving away oil changes is how we should spread the gospel? LOL Church of Jiffy Lube?
“Like I said before, I finished with this stuff. Meaning I have no plans to attend church until I make some sense out of this. Either everyone is going to heaven or there are only some who make it……and those should be people marked with unity, not people marked with countless denominations all teaching contrary things under the banner of unity. They all cant be right!!”
Randy why not come study with the church? Staying home won’t gain you anything
Randy, I have never said what ministry of the church of Christ I attend. I do consider WIL and lee brothers and also have other brothers and sisters who attend other ministries of the churches of Christ.
“Really , are Russians oriental now? Some world traveler, LOL”
faithfull, that’s what he said. And now that you have mentioned it, I’ll add that Robertson did equate “Russian” with “Oriental” live on the air.
So maybe you should ask him the same thing, if you’re at all consistent.
“Chris if you don’t care what he believes why do you keep asking him questions? It seems that you do care and that you are the one trying to hide the gospel”
If you and Robertson and Oldfield and the others in your cult are going to ask people why they are in churches that are “false”, then aren’t others entitled to ask them why do they believe that their “Church of Christ” is true?
Why don’t you tell us faithfull: how exactly is your “Church of Christ” biblical, apart from how your group hijacked the terminology out of the New Testament?
Maybe you can answer my questions if Robertson can’t.
And “hide the gospel”?! What’s that supposed to mean?
thanks brother truth and wil.
lee
8th Request: Johnny, when the church of Christ ( conservatives branch ) says we are to be of the same mind – speak the same things, are you saying that we must all reach perfect understanding and practice of every doctrine of scripture before we die, or else be damned?
TRUTH, Lee, WILL, Chris: Name some groups that will not make it to heaven, and please state why.
Randy,
Hate to disappoint you, but I don’t deal in “groups”.
Are you suggesting that God is going to keep entire “groups” out of Heaven, en masse?
That’s not how He operates. And you should know that.
I’ve no doubt that this is one of the reasons why Mr. Robertson despises me. Because I’m not in a “group” that he can quantify and analyze. He can’t “defeat destroy” me very easily because of that.
Because I am an individual follower of Christ.
And that is how God deals with each of us: as individuals. He doesn’t care what church or denomination we belong to. That’s not going to figure into the final destination.
And it’s not my place… or that of anyone else… to judge whether “this group” or “that person” is going to be damned. That is left to the Lord. It has always been up to the Lord. He alone can judge that.
That is my answer.
Now, Randy, mind telling us who you have judged will not make it into Heaven?
Randy all you want to talk about is who shall we condemn.
Have a nice day.
Let’s see what the Bible says.
“But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God.” John 1:12
“For God so loved the world that he gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.” John 3:16-17
“Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” John 14:6
“Let it be known to you therefore, brothers that through this man forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, and by him everyone who believes is freed from everything from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses.” Acts 13:38,39
“For I am not ashamed of the Gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jews first and also to the Greek.” Romans 1:16
“For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Romans 6:23
“…because if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved… “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” Romans 10:9-13
“In Him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.” Ephesians 1:13-14
“For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.” Ephesians 2:8,9
etc.
Randy I am not against you “sitting on the fence”, my pastor has heard some of my points I use here and totally disagrees with some of them and some he does agree with, he loves me anyway. And we agree to disagree and walk in love believing the best in one another, that both of us are seriously seeking after God. When others voice a belief in something I do not agree with inside that body I hold my tongue and try to see it from their point of view. For instance the point of view of once saved, really is just that, if you are saved you will do what God asked you to do and thus will never lose your salvation, it is not a ticket to do whatever, but others have said that.
No one follows God perfectly, if they did there would be no need for 1 John 2:1 since we would all remain sinless after becoming a child of God.
Here is a perfect example of what I disagree with, Johnny took Chris’s spoof and used it as non-spoofed article on his show. If you listened and did not know this was an April fool’s joke you would think the real New York Post article, he even said should I claim to be in the New York post now. Now I may of missed him explaining the picture as I was busy but if appeared to me that he was using a fictional piece for fact of course with horns added.
Then he shows 4 people he strongly disagrees with talking about Satan coming as an angle of light thus building the case that the four were exactly that and then backs off it by saying “now I am not saying they are Satan”. That is suggestive as can be without actually crossing over and doing the deed.
Finally he called this blog and the people in it as darkness or some such thing, while at the same time claiming that people who ask questions should be honored or words to that effect and backing it up with scripture. While trying to bait those here into a debate with him on TV.
So we are debating here, why is that not enough for him? Does he have to totally control the event and have total advantage of whomever vs him and the entire CoC for the debate to be “fair”?
Why doesn’t he clearly state when he boats of believing in spiritual gifts that not only does he believe they are completely gone but that the only “Holy Spirit” available today is the “Sword of the Spirit” or Bible? He believes this but he dances around that belief for some reason, why?
And while he is at it he can explain how Ezra 10 can be used as an example to force people to leave second or later marriages and return to the first when there is nothing to indicate that those foreign women and half breed children were all second marriages, this is not even talked about in Ezra 10. The NT clearly states that race is no longer a factor and religion is no longer a faster, both were the reasons for kicking those non-jewish people out of their midst! So we have scripture that does not apply since second marriages were not a reason for the action, that both the reasons for doing this were erased in the NT.
To try and say this is an example of what to do with a non-God ordained marriage when it is not a correct example and there are no examples of this in the New Testament is pure unadulterated man made doctrine. Yet it is taught as a command of God by the Hypercons since so they would have an answer for a subject that was not clearly covered in the NT??????? There are no examples of any converts to Christianity leaving a second marriage, surely in the culture they lived in someone who was divorced was saved! Yet nothing is taught, should we infer that since no divorced people are listed in the NT that it is a sign of them being predestined for hell like the Phelps people do with homosexuality? Surely that same logic could be applied as flawed as it is!!!???!!
SO we are darkness here, nobles here or just dark nobles according to Acts 17:11? For I have examined Ezra 10 and I find what you teach to be untrue in this area Johnny Robertson. Note that this does not mean I consider you a false teacher or going to hell for it. But I do not see your teaching as true and I have read the scriptures!
On May 6, 2009 at 5:54 am Randy Said:
TRUTH, Lee, WILL, Chris: Name some groups that will not make it to heaven, and please state why.
That’s not my decision, that is God’s to determine! I can tell you what Jesus said about being the only way to the father but I can not say that you will not make it if you believe Jesus died and rose again and is the Son of God who died for your sins.
I can say that it appears the Muslim’s who deny Jesus’ roll appear to be in grave danger, or others who do not believe this but it is God who will decide things.
Johnny also stated that Jesus turned water into grape juice! The word wine is oinos. Now I am not a greek scholar but if you look at the use of that word you see terms like get drunk like in Rev. 17:2 and while it is a figure of speech in that passage it still portrays being drunk with the wine of immorality. Or Eph 5:18 that says clearly do not get drunk with wine.
Finally there is the wineskin itself, if you place new wine into an old wineskin that has little ability to stretch then as the wine ferments it will expand and break the wineskin and thus the analogy of what Jesus uses. Unless grape juice has the ability to break wine skins Jesus is talking about wine that can make you drunk! And I never find a BCV that says grape juice and see a translation in the Greek as a form of onios.
So is claiming grape juice instead of actual wine not a man made tradition?
For the record I have no problems with Randy “sitting on the fence” it is his right to seek/work out his own salvation. I can disagree with what he says in some instances and I expect him to do the same, iron should sharpen iron!
I agree with Nathan.
This excludes many “groups” Chris ! How about the JW’s? The others we consider cults? My point is that just because some say they are headed to heaven, doesnt mean they are…..and what about vain worship?? Will those worshipping in vain be in heaven? Jim Jones fooled many and they claimed to be following Jesus…to the point of drinking poison. Wonder how many made it to heaven under Jim Jones preaching??
Those are some good scriptures,Nathan. There are more than those though.
You guys act like you arent able to judge nobody……..well except Johnny. You wont judge the cults like JW’s and such, saying we shouldnt condemn, but then you turn right around and judge Johnny. If you say you dont, you all are liars!
The reason Nathan posted those verse was because he knows that all “groups” claiming to be of God are not of God. He knows that the JW’s are practicing things contrary to what the bible teaches. Those scriptures he presented exclude many of the “groups” who profess to be saved.
You guys act like you cant condemn nothing as if its wrong to speak out against false teaching. Nathan pussyfooted around this by using scripture. Why not come out and say the JW’s are wrong in doctrine and headed to hell? You know you believe this Nathan – that is why you posted the verses.
Once you guys admit this – next, lets discuss vain worship. Can one worship God is a church in vain? Jim Jones preached Jesus and preached salvation by Jesus. Many followed him…will they be in heaven?
You guys want to paint this picture as if you are able to judge things and not able to condemn certain practices – this attitude is why so much garbage is being taught today.
You say “ We don’t condemn- We don’t judge” you all are liars……….you all have judged Johnny and other s on here. The btm line is that you don’t like them exposing what you THINK to be church. It is ok if you come on here and judge Johnny, but how dare he judge what you believe. You guys are pathetic. At least be honest with yourselves.
Randy wrote:
“I am amazed ( not really ) how this always goes untouched.
It is one thing to claim doctrinal perfection – another to show us. As DMH said; “If they are erring brothers, what other areas are people allowed to err in?”
- Faithfull, Johnny, Joey, please do the decent thing and address this question.
I get what you’re saying, Randy, and I agree to a point. However, where I draw the line is writing out a list of who is heaven-bound and who is not. As it’s been said here before, it’s simply not our job to make those declarations. Jesus will be the one sitting on the judgment seat, not Randy, or Chris, or any of the rest of us (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 14:10-12, etc).
And just a point of clarification regarding the continual bringing up of Jim Jones, Jim Jones didn’t pretend to be a Christian. He was an athiest, a communist, and as it says on wiki, “By the early 1970s, Jones began deriding traditional Christianity as “fly away religion,” rejecting the Bible as being white men’s’ justification to subordinate women and subjugate people of color and stating that it spoke of a “Sky God” who was no God at all. Jones authored a booklet titled “The Letter Killeth,” criticizing the Bible.”
Not trying to distract from the conversation, just clearing the air about Jim Jones allegedly teaching Jesus to the followers who killed themselves for him.
My opinion is that to preach the gospel of Christ would be more effective than screaming you’re going to hell.
Chris wrote: “Now, Randy, mind telling us who you have judged will not make it into Heaven?”
Randy Wrote: I think you have referred to Johnny as a cult leader quite a few times. How dare you play judge!
Chris, can we not look at an apple tree and determine it so, by its fruit?
We can know or identify (judge) whether a person is godly or not (their character) by their fruit (words and actions) which we can identify/judge as good or bad – (Matthew 7:15-20, Matthew 12:33, Luke 6:43)
We can judge what is right or wrong – Luke 12:57
We are to judge rightly, justly, according to the judgments of God, not according to man’s wisdom or the outward appearance(John 8:26, 1 Corinthians 2:10-16, 2 Corinthians 10:6)
As spiritual men, we judge, examine, investigate, estimate all things – (1 Corinthians 2:15)
We are to judge in small matters – (1 Corinthians 6:2)
We are to judge things that pertain to this life – (1 Corinthians 6:3-4, 1 Corinthians 7:25,40, 1 Corinthians 11:13)
We are to judge and evaluate our own thoughts – (2 Corinthians 10:5)
Our love should abound in knowledge and judgment – (Philippians 1:9)
We are to use the scripture to learn and understand doctrine, to instruct, to reprove, to correct – (2 Timothy 3:16)
We are to be able to discern both good and evil – (Hebrews 5:14)
Chris, We are to search, examine and look critically at the scripture to see if what church leaders are teaching us is true and right – (Acts 17:11)
We are to examine, scrutinize, and verify (1381) what God’s will is – (Romans 12:2)
We are to judge what our leaders say – (1 Corinthians 10:15)
We are to be able to identify and distinguish between heresies and approved doctrine – (1 Corinthians 11:19)
We are to judge the words of those who claim to be prophets – (1 Corinthians 14:29)
We are to judge ideas and everything that exalts itself against the knowledge of God – (2 Corinthians 10:5)
We must examine, check (1381) ourselves to see if we are in the faith – (2 Corinthians 13:5)
We are to prove, examine, test what is acceptable to God – (Ephesians 5:10-11)
We are to examine, test, prove all things – (1 Thessalonians 5:21)
We are to hold to the faithful word as it was taught from the beginning, which was imparted by those who penned the New Testament – (1 Thessalonians 5:21, 2 Timothy 1:13, Titus 1:9)
We are to study to show ourselves approved unto God, rightly dividing the word of truth – (2 Timothy 2:15)
We are to use the scripture to learn and understand doctrine, to instruct, to reprove, to correct – (2 Timothy 3:16)
We are to reprove, rebuke, and exhort with patience, sound doctrine and all authority- (2 Timothy 4:2, Titus 1:9, Titus 2:15)
The word of God is able to discern thoughts and intentions of the heart – (Hebrews 4:12, Ephesians 6:17)
Believe not every spirit, but try/test the spirits to see if they are of God – (1 John 4:1) 16. We are not to receive in our house/church those who don’t hold to sound doctrine, nor are we to bid them Godspeed or we are partaking in their evil deeds – (2 John 1:10)
We are to earnestly contend for the faith that was once and for all delivered unto the saints *(orthodoxy given intact, complete, understood at the onset, not developed or discovered over time) – (Jude 1:3)
Command that no other doctrine be taught than that given by the apostles – (1 Timothy 1:3)
Chris, are you convinced that you shouldn’t be judging others because of a strong conviction based on a Biblical understanding of this topic? Or are you simply reflecting the influence of a culture, which seeks to abolish absolute standards of right and wrong as well as to eliminate any accountability to such standards?
And God will judge whether one will enter Heaven or not.
God and God alone.
Not you or I.
But as for this…
“Chris, can we not look at an apple tree and determine it so, by its fruit?”
I may not be in the position to judge final destiny, but no sane person can but admit that something is seriously wrong when a “Christian” resorts to lies, threats, harassment, and if that were not enough also incredulously inviting people to visit their “church” one moment and then calling those same people “hypocrites” “gullible” and “believing in false doctrine” the next… on live television.
Now, what kind of fruit is that?
So much for being that “sweet aroma” that we are called to be.
By the way Randy, none of those verses that you quoted have anything to do with judging and condemning “groups” of people.
You are correct regarding Jims Jones. But, you do understand that one can be part of a religion, thinking they are headed to heaven, right?? I am not saying I know who will be in heaven and who wont. I think we can judge a tree by its fruit though.
Let me be specific here: Do you believe Benny Hinn is headed to heaven? Have you studied his beliefs and doctrinal practices? Would not that be enough to judge the tree by its fruit?
Don’t see any of the apostles harassing people such as elderly women to the point of having to threaten them with a weapon to get them to leave her alone.
I do have to wonder something else…
Do Johnny Robertson, James Oldfield and their followers, honestly believe in God?
The reason I ask that, is that if a person does sincerely believe in God, then more often than not the greater tendency is for that person to act with conscience. That person is restrained by the knowledge that he or she will have guilt or remorse over his or her wrongful actions. That’s usually enough to either be incentive not to commit wrong in the first place, or if a person does wrong another or God, then he or she is moved to repentance.
Now, what have we seen from the local “Church of Christ”’s leaders and their followers?
They are apparently not restrained by conscience at all!
They continue to seek to hurt and “destroy” people.
They actively engage in deceit.
They actively engage in falsehood and gossip.
And they have never apologized for it, or even apparently shown an iota of remorse for what they are doing.
That is not the fruit of one who believes in God at all!
All of those things and other examples of what the “Church of Christ” is doing, are more like what one would expect of those who are not in reverent fear of an Almighty God.
Could it be that the “Church of Christ” is really, though they would never admit it… a pack of atheists?
Just something I’ve been led to ponder over the past few days.
easy big fella……
now that you off the fence.
we can all talk honestly.
your friend the “pathetic liar”
lee
On May 2, 2009 at 9:32 pm lee Said:
On April 26, 2009 at 1:08 pm johnny Said:
thanks chris
you said
Think about it, if you can: you have yet to build up any significant case for your own “church” purely on the strength of its own doctrine and beliefs.
this comes from a man who couldn’t go 30 minutes to keep his word on the free time given him to talk about the truth. Instead he had to praise schoooooders cat and show himself on the pot during a religious discussion.
This will be my last post to chris.
I will pay attention to some of the others if I see something new.
I am putting you and the shiek together as that is where you belong.
do you tell lies because you are a liar?,
or are you a liar because you lie?
those pants are so hot we may see spontaneous human
combustion.
lee
isnt lying one of the things god hates?
im just saying……..
lee
“Could it be that the “Church of Christ” is really, though they would never admit it… a pack of atheists?”
Chris, where does this come from? How in the world do you draw such conclusions? Are you “judging
faithfull/Mitch,
I happened to notice that you posted this on the YouTube video of Robertson harassing the Baptist church in Arkansas…
“Running someone out of the church instead of answering questions ? Are we not to ask questions of those claiming to know and holding themselves up as teachers? I guess you have gladly helped Jim Jones to pour the coolaid and stopped anyone from froma sking questions of him too?”
So Mitch/faithful, “are we not to ask questions of those claiming to know and holding themselves up as teachers?”
Once again I challenge Johnny Robertson to answer these questions…
1. If all other doctrines are “false”, then why should anyone believe that your “Church of Christ” is true?
2. What evidence can you provide demonstrating that your “Church of Christ” is the church described in the New Testament?
3. And if your “Church of Christ” can not be found in the New Testament, then WHY ARE YOU AND YOUR FOLLOWERS IN A CHURCH THAT IS NOT IN THE BIBLE?
Lots of people are starting to wonder why Robertson is not able to tell us how his own “church” is biblical and true, when he runs around accusing all others of being “false”.
Truth said:
“Bob, what are your thoughts about Johnny harassing people at church and at their homes?”
He doesn’t need to *lie* or be *hateful* or anything. I guess I’d have to say he really has just as much right as any of us to check people out and like DMH said point out things he considers to be problems.
Truth also said:
“Umm sorry but the questions we have asked Johnny have yet to be answered for the past two weeks on here or on his program.”
I was talking to Chris about his questions concerning what these men believe to be the truth about the church. I suggested that they taught the answers to his questions using the antithesis approach (compare and contrast), and Chris said he understood that already, which means he had already received his answer. That’s all. And actually, since I went through looking more today, I see that Joey and Johnny both gave answers to Randy’s questions (no it doesn’t mean that, plus first principles then growth, plus milk and meat verses). It’s hard for me to keep up with fast-moving text-heavy blogs…
Pardon below. I’m just investigating how to do the nifty formatting stuff.
test test test [b]test[/b] test [u]test[/u]
testtest [s]test[/s] test test [i]test[/i][quote]test[/quote] [quote=Quotee]test[/quote] [quote="Quotee"]test[/quote]
“Chris, where does this come from? How in the world do you draw such conclusions? Are you “judging”
Judge their souls? No.
Judge their actions and motivations?
Heck yeah.
Bob,
You got HTML down pat
Love: Johnny along with his men have tried to defeat and destroy people and bring people down. That is hate not love.
Joy: Johnny has expressed immense joy and glee in his voice when he has caused people to stumble and sin. That is something I would think Satan and his demons would do.
Longsuffering (patience): Johnny makes himself the judge, jury, and executioner of people. As many have seen time and time again Johnny is very quick to judge and condemn people.
Kindness: Johnny and his men have secretly recorded people’s conversations without them knowing it. Johnny and his men have taken recordings of people and edited them and twisted their words into something that was not being said. Such deceitfulness and lying is not being kind at all.
Goodness: Johnny and his church have not shown that they make exceptional efforts to feed and clothe very many if any, poor, homeless, sick, widowed, or orphaned people. Perhaps because they spend their time and money trying to defeat and destroy and bring people down.
Faithfulness: Johnny and his men definitely show they are faithful to lie to and harass people.
Self-Control: Johnny and his men have lied many times to people on this blog and have lied to people as he and his men secretly record them. Johnny and his men have continued harassing people, not leaving when they have been asked sometimes numerous times to leave. Johnny expects other people to answer his questions, but doesn’t hold that to himself to answer questions other people ask him. No self-control in behavior like that.
If Johnny wants to speak to someone there are proper ways to do such.
Johnny does not have the right to harass people as he does as they worship or at their homes. People do have the right to worship as they want without being harassed.
If Johnny thinks a group is a dangerous cult he can call the authorities and let them do their job.
Randy tries to justify what Johnny does by pointing his fingers at this blog. Randy what you need to realize is that this blog is the result of Johnny’s attacks on people.
Truth, what you need to understand is that Robertson and his cult do express things like “love” and “joy” and “kindness” and such to other people.
The thing is, they only demonstrate those qualities to those that “belong with” them.
The “Church of Christ” isn’t much different from a gang of adolescent bullies. So long as you’re an initiated member and promise to be loyal to “the leader” and follow him without question, you are treated like “one of the boys”. But defy the “gang” and they declare all-out war on you. It’s even worse if you’ve been a member and turn traitor (Jason Hairston being an example).
The “Church of Christ” that we see harassing others in this area and broadcasting on WGSR is, for all intents and purposes, a small group of grown men who want to play “Bloods ‘n Crips” so that they can live out their fantasy of having an all-out turf war with the wrong “colors” (i.e. the legitimate churches in this area).
As I said earlier: Robertson and his cult don’t preach Christ. Theirs is thuggish Churchianity: a religion of their own church.
If you belong to their “church”, they love you. If you don’t, they hate you without apology.
And if Mr. Robertson could have heard what I did firsthand yesterday, he might actually get a clue as to how he and his followers have become so despised in this area.
Did anyone watch Johnny last night on TV? I think he made some interesting points.
I do wonder sometimes about all of the car washes, church yard sales, fish-fry’s ( btw I stop at these – love fish ), and other events to raise money. Where does this money go? If it serves a good purpose, I really don’t see a problem.
Yesterday, I was approached by someone who attends the Joseph Catholic church, with a 20 dollar raffle ticket. The winner of this drawing gets a car that looked from the 80’s – couldn’t tell much about the car…the picture was smaller than a dime and black and white.
I declined to buy one – 20 bucks for a raffle ticket…WOW 3000 raffle tickets at 20 bucks…not a bad idea. I have a 1989 Mustang – think I might do this…:)
Johnny, while reading Luke’s gospel I ran into a problem in 5:12-14:
“And it came to pass, when he was in a certain city, behold a man full of leprosy: who seeing Jesus fell on his face, and besought him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean. And he put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will: be thou clean. And immediately the leprosy departed from him. And he charged him to tell no man: but go, and shew thyself to the priest, and offer FOR thy cleansing, according as Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.” Jesus made this man clean in verse 13, yet in the next verse, verse 14, Jesus tells him to go offer a sacrifice “FOR thy cleansing” as a “testimony.”
Here the word “for” cannot mean “in order to get” because he had already gotten his cleansing in verse 13. It obviously meant “because of” his cleansing. Luke wrote Acts 2:38 too, so could he have meant “because of?”
In Acts 2:38, were they repenting “because of” the remission of sins, which Jesus died FOR?
Were they looking back to the cross – the work of Jesus FOR remission?
They obviously had faith prior to repenting and being baptized, seeing they were pricked in their hearts. Was Peter saying, since you now have faith in Jesus, whom I just preached…now on that basis, repent and be baptized because of the remission of sins that Jesus provided on the cross?
Wake up over there in China.
Johnny here are my questions again:
Johnny, are we to pray with our hands lifted up, are we to pray with our hands folded, are we to pray with our eyes open, are we to pray with our eyes closed?
Johnny, a lot of your focus on your program before has been on Muslims. You have never shown that you have ever gone with your camera to Muslims assemblies. Why not? Is it because you are afraid?
While on some business this afternoon I found a site in Reidsville that is going to be the future location of a Church of Christ sanctuary.
The obvious question in my mind is, “Has Johnny Robertson approved of this new Church of Christ?”
I mean, it didn’t say “Reidsville Church of Christ” on the sign announcing its imminent construction. So according to the cult, it’s no more biblical than the Baptist churches, the Methodist churches etc.
Questions, questions…
“Johnny, a lot of your focus on your program before has been on Muslims.”
Serious question, are there even any Muslims in his program’s viewing range?
Another question…
Let’s assume that Robertson has been active as a “preacher” with his brand of “Church of Christ” since 1982 or 1983 (around the time that he was released from prison).
Now, Mr. Robertson has stated quite plainly that it is his mission to “defeat destroy” other churches, which he believes are “false”.
I’m just wondering: How many churches can Johnny Robertson claim to have actually destroyed?
That’s more than a quarter century of service to the hyper-legalist cult that has taken “Church of Christ” as its name.
But what has resulted from that alleged “service”?
I know of people who, any one of them has helped to establish quite a number of churches over the years.
Well, it has always been an easier thing to destroy than it is to plant a thing and see it grow.
So logically, the landscape should be littered with the ruins of churches that Johnny Robertson and his cult have “defeated destroy”-ed. There are supposed to be empty churches screaming “Johnny Robertson was here” stretching all the way from sea to shining sea… if Robertson was doing his job.
But to the best of my knowledge, I can’t think of a single congregation that Robertson, Oldfield and their followers have divided utterly and seen cast to the four winds.
Now… what kind of a success rate is that supposed to be?!?
Mr. Robertson, if you indeed have the “truth” on your side, then after more than 25 years you should be able to boast of a staggering pile of churches that you have wooed away from what you consider to be “error”.
Heck, knowing you as we do, you should have already been gloating about just one church that you have “defeat destroy”-ed.
Can it be that after nearly three full decades of being a “preacher with the church that you read about in the Bible”, that you have absolutely nothing to show for your efforts?
Why is that, Mr. Robertson? What do you have to say for yourself?
I have an idea why that is, however…
It is because Christ which is within the churches that he has sought to destroy, is greater than that which is within Johnny Robertson, James Oldfield and the “Church of Christ” that they represent.
And that is why, I have no doubt, the cult will never be able to brag “Here was a church that we defeated and destroyed.”
China?! What? I think I may be moving there soon
There are Muslim people who live in Johnny’s programs viewing area. Also that guy they call “sheik” calls Johnny’s program every once in a while.
On May 7, 2009 at 4:15 pm Katherine Said:
China?! What? I think I may be moving there soon
I have a friend that moved there 6 years ago. He is there for the company we work for…
Good luck with your trip there. I read Johns blog and seen that you were planing to go there.
“Now, Mr. Robertson has stated quite plainly that it is his mission to “defeat destroy” other churches, which he believes are “false”.”
Well Chris you believe he church of Christ is false , would you destroy the church of Christ? Or help us to promote what we teach? We know it not the latter even though your anticks do help us to show the idiocy associated with the man made religion you are involved in
“1. If all other doctrines are “false”, then why should anyone believe that your “Church of Christ” is true?
2. What evidence can you provide demonstrating that your “Church of Christ” is the church described in the New Testament?
3. And if your “Church of Christ” can not be found in the New Testament, then WHY ARE YOU AND YOUR FOLLOWERS IN A CHURCH THAT IS NOT IN THE BIBLE?”
Chris thoughs are easy questions and I can give an answer , even hough you can’t
1.Just because something else is false deoesn’t change the true. Example. Does counterfit money exist? yes. Then does that mean that there is no real money? no
2.The evedince is comparing the worship and doctrine that the church teaches to the bible. The church that you were baptized into holds to extra books that have eror in them.
3. We are the church you read about in the bible. he problem you have is don’t believe Jesus when he said the gates of hell will not prevail against His church. You think the gates of hell have won over the church and so all you can get today is man made religion.
We thank you for you showmanship Chris you are a prime example of what man religion brings to the table
“I do wonder sometimes about all of the car washes, church yard sales, fish-fry’s ( btw I stop at these – love fish ), and other events to raise money. Where does this money go? If it serves a good purpose, I really don’t see a problem. ”
The problem is it’s not the bible way. Either you believe the bible to be the best way or you don’t
“We just celebrated His resurrection a few weeks ago.”
There you go Chris , I’m glad you said that. Here is a diference. WE celebrate His resurrection EVERY WEEK
Randy
you asked
In Acts 2:38, were they repenting “because of” the remission of sins, which Jesus died FOR?
your questioned was based upon “for” being used in Luk 5:14
the purpose of “showing” thyself to priest
for a testimony (eis marturion)
not because of a testimony
the “for” previous to this was “peri” and it is “because”
offer because of cleaning
show to priest for\eis (purpose of doing so) a testimony
baptism for\eis (purpose of) remission
Joy: Johnny has expressed immense joy and glee in his voice when he has caused people to stumble and sin. That is something I would think Satan and his demons would do.
Re 18:20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
presbyterian Barnes
the oppressor of truth is cast down…. all rejoice
we rejoice when denoms are seen for what they are
we rejoice when Satan’s ministers are seen for who they are
no one is stumbling from our work… but rather are seeing…
thanks for telling us of our effect
“truth” said
Love: Johnny along with his men have tried to defeat and destroy people and bring people down. That is hate not love.
Bible says of Loving God and prophet Jer…
Jer 1:10 See, I have this day set thee over the nations and over the kingdoms, to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to throw down, to build, and to plant.
Jer 31:28 And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the LORD.
“truth” said
Johnny does not have the right to harass people as he does as they worship or at their homes. People do have the right to worship as they want without being harassed.
Ac 24:5 For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes:
is this how you see me
thank God for the chance to suffer for Christ!
“truth” says
Randy tries to justify what Johnny does by pointing his fingers at this blog. Randy what you need to realize is that this blog is the result of Johnny’s attacks on people.
so… you all do what you say I shouldn’t do but it is ok since “we made you do it”
“the devil made me do it”
just a note to the group
I was in KY the other night, the gent preaching saw me in the audience and he said
we need to be like Johnny?
why
the work in his area is so effective they have a website dedicated to trying to stop him
thanks guys
your site has really helped people in the church of Christ who want to fight the liberalism inside the church
keep up the great advertising
with your help we have convince brethren to not only support me & the TV work, but 3 other men who are in training
see you at the “all out” Danville tent
June 22- July4th
2 weeks of TV nitely, and tent preaching nitely
couldnt have done it without u all proving that we are reaching the community
it is ok nathan if you don’t publish my comments
I can always show on TV what u didnt publish
win win for me either way
*crickets chirping*
Still no answers?
Thanks! I have actually already gone on the first trip-back in March, and completely fell in love with the people and everything there! The harvest is SO ripe and the people are absolutely amazing.
John Dobbs? I LOVE that man-precious soul! He and several others online who I have never even met made it possible for me to get there and share the Good News with so many-truly humbling and a blessing!! We may be going back this year…I will probably be a vocational missionary-teaching English while building on the relationships already established…just praying for God’s leading and timing!!
“Well Chris you believe he church of Christ is false , would you destroy the church of Christ?”
faithfull, I’m not out to “defeat destroy” you, as your side has boasted of setting out to do to those that you hate.
As I have said before, every person has the right to seek God as he or she can best understand Him. If you and those that you follow can’t understand Him as well as others can, I won’t hold that against you.
But I do have a problem with your harassing innocent people, using deception, telling outright lies and falsehoods against others, and even stalking those that you consider to be your “opponents”.
Your “Church of Christ” consistently crosses a very terrible line, and you even dare excuse doing so in the name of Christ.
I don’t hold your spiritual ignorance against you.
But I won’t stand idly by and let you or anyone else bully others in the name of God, if I can at all help it.
And that’s all that you are doing: being a gang of ecclesiastical bullies.
There is no difference at all between your “Church of Christ” and the Taliban in Afghanistan and Pakistan.
Sorry Johnny we don’t do what you do and harass people as they worship or at their homes. All were doing is discussing the way you expose your own wrongs on TV.
Johnny,
Jesus said, “But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you.” Matthew 5:44
Paul said, “Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men. If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men.” Romans 12:17-18
Johnny, why don’t you do what the Bible says?
“it is ok nathan if you don’t publish my comments
I can always show on TV what u didnt publish
win win for me either way”
Believe it or not, I actually have a life besides this blog, and I’ve been too busy living that life to worry about checking comments.
By the way, it still confuses me why you care so much. You seem to revel in telling us how inconsequential we are to you, and then when 24 hours goes by and your comments aren’t approved you cry “foul” and complain you aren’t getting through.
Mr. Robertson wrote:
“the work in his area is so effective they have a website dedicated to trying to stop him”
Correction. This blog isn’t dedicated to “stopping” you. Read the mission statement at the top of the page. This is a place of discussion of doctrine and methodology, not of “defeating and destroying” others. And it stopped being about you specifically a while back. It just so happens that you generate a lot of conversation because you host hours of TV each week.
Not incidentally, I do still pray for you John. And the next time you go on a holiday, here’s a spot I’d recommend – http://www.damascus.org.
Just look up a guy named Ananias once you get there…
And faithfull…
“WE celebrate His resurrection EVERY WEEK”
It’s too bad that you can’t seem to remember and appreciate why He came to us to begin with every day of the week.
I’m working on some stuff and have tonight’s edition of “The Martinsville Taliban Show” on in the background, half-listening but mostly its there for ambient noise/sound and fury.
And I find it most hilarious that Mr. Robertson is talking about asking questions of other churches, but he still refuses to answer the questions WE have posed to him!
You would think that the opportunity to have his “authoritative answers” permanently archived here, for anyone to discover the “truth” about his “Church of Christ”, would appeal to him too much to resist. But apparently not.
So “faithfull”, regarding the so-called “answers” that you gave…
“1.Just because something else is false deoesn’t change the true. Example. Does counterfit money exist? yes. Then does that mean that there is no real money? no”
Quite the attempt at artfully dodging the question there.
“2.The evedince is comparing the worship and doctrine that the church teaches to the bible. The church that you were baptized into holds to extra books that have eror in them.”
Your own “Church of Christ” doesn’t even adhere 100% to the worship and doctrine of the original New Testament churches. So how can you possibly say that any other churches are in more “eror” than your own?
“3. We are the church you read about in the bible…”
Prove it.
You can’t.
And your constant insisting that you are, does not in no way make it factually so.
Again, I ask Johnny Robertson, James Oldfield, faithfull, and anyone else from the “Church of Christ” to attempt to intelligengly and coherently answer the following…
1. If all other doctrines are “false”, then why should anyone believe that your “Church of Christ” is true?
2. What evidence can you provide demonstrating that your “Church of Christ” is THE church described in the New Testament?
3. And if your “Church of Christ” can not be found in the New Testament, then WHY ARE YOU AND YOUR FOLLOWERS IN A CHURCH THAT IS NOT IN THE BIBLE?
I’d still like to see any of you try to answer these without stooping to attacking others.
As it is, I don’t think it’s even possible for you to separate your theology from your hatred.
And tonight, Johnny Robertson is showing supreme ignorance in most glorious fashion…
At this moment, he is confirming to a caller that “Allah” is the Arabic word for God.
But… Robertson is also saying that “Allah” is only a false god.
?!?!?
“Allah” is the Arabic translation of our word “God”. And in the context of Arabic it is not a word used to exclusively identify the Islamic deity.
I have asked many Christians of Arab heritage about this and they have all told me that in their own native language, “Allah” is God. There exists NO other word in Arabic for God that servces to differentiate the God of the Judeo-Christian tradition, from the deity of Islam.
What does differentiate the two is that for those who follow Christ, “Allah” is the same as the Father. In Islamic belief, God is a singular being and one must submit to him per the teachings of Mohammed.
So the question arises: how exactly are those of Arabic heritage, who speak an Arabic dialect in everyday life and who do follow Christ – and there are many such people – to refer to God at all if “Allah” is all that they have?
Is Robertson insisting that such people must use the English word “God” or else they are damned to Hell?
Once again, the “Church of Christ”’s leadership is demonstrating that they worship their own limited understanding.
So many posts where to start, faithful you claimed to be the true church because you mimic that church and use counterfeit money as an example.
But isn’t counterfeit money made to look almost like the real thing as close as it can be? If so then since the original church operated in the power of the Holy Spirit and you claim the Holy Spirit is now the Bible are you not in fact only partially the original Church and thus counterfeit by your own arguments? I’m just saying…
Johnny I will add to your gleeful comments about celebrating the fall of others, those who you celebrate over are not teachers of the word but sheep and little ones, what does it say about causing a little one to stumble? And given what it does say about that should I not be investing in millstone stock?
Johnny said that someone preaching said “we need to be like Johnny?”
Really my Bible tells me I am to conform to Jesus, is Johnny Greek for Jesus or is Jesus Greek for Johnny?
Amazing!
Johnny said:
“Joy: Johnny has expressed immense joy and glee in his voice when he has caused people to stumble and sin. That is something I would think Satan and his demons would do.
Re 18:20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
presbyterian Barnes
the oppressor of truth is cast down…. all rejoice
we rejoice when denoms are seen for what they are
we rejoice when Satan’s ministers are seen for who they are
no one is stumbling from our work… but rather are seeing…
thanks for telling us of our effect”
Wow, Johnny-this has to be one of the worst attempts at justification of what you are attempting to do I have seen yet.
People ARE stumbling from your work-even the people you are training and leading you are causing to stumble-because you are attempting to put stumbling blocks in the way of people who are already claimed by Christ Himself-yet you deem unworthy of Him, while training others to do the same…for that you WILL have to answer for one day-and I don’t believe your attempts to justify will work with our Father. What an absolute mess you have gotten yourself into, yet you cannot even see…and you have the nerve to even place the name of God on your deceitfulness. Do you ever wonder why we live in an ever-increasing post-Christian nation? Because of this kind of judgmental, hypocritical nonsense.
I just have to leave much of this to God to deal with, because you guys don’t get it or do not want to get it. This is not what Jesus died on a cruel cross for-to go chasing after other Christians in an attempt to “defeat, destroy, tear down” twisting Scriptures to justify your agenda…He came so that people would know His love, grace, mercy…and His beautiful, wonderful, and free gift of salvation which He has offered to us ALL. Even you cannot take that away from those Jesus has already claimed, and you sure are wasting your time trying to bring down people you should actually be building up-according to the Bible, because we are to be spurring on and loving our brothers and sisters-yes, those you do not accept who God has-your denial of that will never change who is already found in God.
Father, please open their eyes and hearts-for only you can!!
Katherine prayed:
“Father, please open their eyes and hearts-for only you can!!”
Amen and Amen!
Johnny, faithful,
- I attend a Coc that believes in using a single shared cup for communion, and is against having organized Sunday school classes. Is this Coc incorrect with their practices? If so, am I outside the body of Christ or simply an erring brother? What other aspects of worship can my CoC or (any other) differ from yours and still be acceptable? Please provide BCV to explain this.
(this is example only)
Johnny raised some good points last night. I think we are headed towards universalism, if we don’t come to terms of unity. Are we united on “any” terms or are there practices and doctrines that we all should all mirror.
Can we not all look at Benny Hinn’s teaching and determine him to either be an atheist masquerading as a Christian or he is self deceived. If we cant even judge such small matters, we are indeed headed to an anything goes Gospel. There are many who have exposed Benny Hinn, but still the masses run to his so-called healing crusades.
Anyone want to catch a plane and go see him? Better yet, see all of the crippled people in their wheel chairs rolling back to their cars after his show.
Let me tell you something. The Holy Spirit told me that this blog is against God… The Lord spoke to me audibly and said that He is going to appear physically to me in the next few months.
How many of you believe me?
I doubt anyone.
But, you have masses falling for this garbage from men like Hinn. Google him and get his comments and see if you “judge” him to be a follower of Jesus.
One of Benny Hinns crazy comments: “Let me tell you something. The Holy Spirit has already told me He is about to show up. And you know, oh, I gotta tell you this quickly, just before we go. I had a word of prophecy from Ruth Heflin, you know who Ruth Heflin is? Ruth prophesied over me back in the seventies and everything she said has happened. She just sent me a word through my wife and said the Lord spoke to her audibly and said that He is going to appear physically in one of our crusades in the next few months. Yeah, she – I’m telling ya – she said, the Lord spoke to her audibly and said, ‘Tell Benny I’m going to appear physically on the platform in his meetings’. Lord, do it in Phoenix Arizona in the name of Jesus! And in Kenya too, Lord, please, Lord, in fact, do it in every crusade. In Jesus’ name.” -Benny Hinn
My point with posting this is that when we abandon clear doctrine, we permit more Benny Hinns to deceive more people. The reason most on here are hesitate to comment on men like Hinn, is because you are in a group that practices similar things.
You want to know where most of this nonsense came from….start with Kenneth Hagin and study what he taught, then dig deeper….further back to William Branham.
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/quotes.html
“If you have attacked me, your children will pay for it.” (Benny Hinn, TBN “Heresy Hunters” October 23 1992)
If doctrine doesnt matter, will you guys accept this:
Poverty is from the devil and that God wants all Christians prosperous.” (Benny Hinn, TBN, 11/6/90)
“I am a ‘little messiah’ walking the earth” (Benny Hinn, Praise-a-Thon” on TBN, November 6, 1990).
“Are you ready for some real revelation knowledge….you are god” (Benny Hinn, “Our Position In Christ”, tape # AO31190-1)
“You are a little god on earth running around”. (Benny Hinn, “Praise-a-thon” broadcast on TBN, November, 1990)
Matthew 7:1, taken in its context, does not forbid all judging and intolerance, but only hypocritical judging and intolerance. In fact, it does requires of us that, after repenting of our own sins, we condemn the brother’s sin as sin, and help him turn from it. “First cast out the beam out of thine own eye,” Jesus says, “then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye” (vs. 5). Jesus commands genuine, not hypocritical, intolerance of sin which the brother commits.
I Corinthians 5 is an important chapter as regards the positive duty of judging. First, in verse 3, Paul states under the inspiration of the Spirit that he has passed “judgment” on a member of the church in Corinth who was living in the sin of fornication. His “judgment” was “to deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.” This is a bold judgment on his part.
It is nonsense to act like we cant “judge” – heck, we seem to do a good job judging Johnny and others…
ok,
ill stop sending him checks………..
lee
On April 26, 2009 at 1:08 pm johnny Said:
thanks chris
you said
Think about it, if you can: you have yet to build up any significant case for your own “church” purely on the strength of its own doctrine and beliefs.
this comes from a man who couldn’t go 30 minutes to keep his word on the free time given him to talk about the truth. Instead he had to praise schoooooders cat and show himself on the pot during a religious discussion.
This will be my last post to chris.
I will pay attention to some of the others if I see something new.
I am putting you and the shiek together as that is where you belong.
yes lets weed out all the false teachers.
first lets start with the ones who tell falsehoods.
that would be ok with you right?
lee
Randy,
I’m not sure why you are arguing about Benny Hinn here. Nobody’s said a word about Benny Hinn. Nobody’s promoting him, or his style, or his doctrine. There are plenty of evangelical Christians – who the hypercons would consider lost – who would also criticize the tomfoolery and scam-artistry that Mr. Hinn and his type represent. Heck, there are plenty of avowed non-Christians who would agree with them.
I see what you’re saying, but I don’t recall anyone here saying “doctrine doesn’t matter”. If I’m wrong, please correct me.
Meanwhile, I don’t want Katherine’s last comment to get lost in the shuffle. I thought her last comment represented some of the most clearly insightful thinking of any comment ever posted on this blog. Bravo, Katherine! And if anyone reading this missed it, just scroll back and give it a read. It’s just brilliant.
Two thumbs up!
Amen, Katherine!
Mark 9:38-41
“Now John answered Him, saying, “Teacher, we saw someone who does not follow us casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow us.” But Jesus said, “Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of Me. For he who is not against us is on our side. For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink in My name, because you belong to Christ, assuredly, I say to you, he will by no means lose his reward.”
Now that we have established that Doctrine does matter. Which ones matter? I knew when I was posting this, that you would come back with a comment like this. This has everything to do with church of Christ doctrine and positions they hold.
I know you guys on here don’t come right out and proclaim that “anything goes” nor do you say that doctrine doesn’t matter. But, you paint that picture when you act as though there aren’t any standards that the Christian life should mirror.
You seem to agree that Benny Hinn might be a fake, which means you are making a judgment based upon your understanding of scripture.
Could Benny Hinn just be a brother in error?
Or can one be damned who holds an error not authorized of God?
This very much relates to church of Christ mentality. This is what drives them to seeks patterns and such, which many end up treating like laws written on stone.
On one hand, some treat scripture like there aren’t any rules, which a Christians life should mirror… and then on the other side are those who use scriptures as a law book of rules, requiring everybody follow their views or be sent to hell.
I believe there is a balance, and I believe Jay, Todd, and many others are seeking such a balance. A balance which hinges on grace – not law.
We must NOT preach an exclusive gospel of salvation through Christ alone. We must not view the teachings of other religions – Judaism, Mormonism, Buddhism, and all others – as inherently wrong. We may not tell the Jew, the Mormon, or the Buddhist that he must repent of his sins against the first four commandments of God’s law, and come to the knowledge of the true God who has revealed Himself in Christ. Rather, we ought to approve the teachings of Judaism, Mormonism, Buddhism, and other religions; present them as viable alternatives to the Christian faith; and encourage members of our churches to incorporate into their lives whatever good is found in these teachings.” This is where some are headed!
We MUST preach an exclusive gospel of salvation through Jesus and baptism for remission of sins. We must exclude everyone who holds any views contrary to what we deem the bible to teach on any given subject. We must view all denominations as sinful and deem them all as deceived sinners. Anyone not holding to the pattern we prescribe are sinners worthy of hell. This is where some are headed!
My opinion is that both views are leading people astray. On one hand we have grace being so great that it welcomes everyone aboard, no matter what they believe. Then, on the other side we have those who hold up laws as a means of justification.
I believe there are some people who are only out for their own personal gain. I believe people should check before they decide to support someone. I don’t believe everything anyone tells me. I also don’t believe anyone has the right to harass others.
lets start with liars……i mean we have to begin
somewhere.
lee
But Lee if we did that then all that would be left would be the ones lying about lying!
Randy Benny Hinn prayed a curse on someone if someone wished they could pray blindness on another person would they be in the same category as BH?
As for judgment and BH maybe being fake, if I say we might be all killed in a meteor strike this afternoon, am I judging or making a guess? Since I and nobody else here knows the condition of his relationship with God we are just guessing.
Randy would you draw the line at doctrine if someone’s doctrine says that God can break his own commands is that false or true? Is God able to break his commands and not be a sinner? Is God a do as I say not as I do God?
Well, for what it’s worth, I’ve never thought of Benny Hinn as being anything other than a charlatan.
Am I judging his salvation? No.
But I am judging that it’s more than a little nutty when the man tells people to put the corpses of their deceased loved ones in front of the television set while Hinn is on, so that he can raise them from the dead.
(Seriously folks, that’s what he said.)
Chris, I am glad to see we agree on something ( I think so )
I tend to believe the man is lost…you do too, even though you say you dont want to judge him
Plud Hinn has said much more statements that one could easily “judge: him to be lost.
But my point wasnt to make this about Benny Hinn ( as Nathan also reminded us ) but my point was that we all judge motives and we all judge people. We have no right to act like THE JUDGE, but we can judge a tree by its fruit
Rom 16:17 I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine THAT YOU HAVE BEEN TAUGHT; avoid them.
2 Thes 2:15 So then, brothers, stand firm and HOLD to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.
2 Thes 3:6-9 Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is walking in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us. 7 For you yourselves know how you ought to imitate us, because we were not idle when we were with you, 8 nor did we eat anyone’s bread without paying for it, but with toil and labor we worked night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you. 9 It was not because we do not have that right, but to give you in ourselves an example to imitate.
2 Tim 1:13 Follow the PATTERN of the sound words that you have heard from me, in the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.
1 Cor 11:1-2 Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ. 2 Now I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I delivered them to you.
1 Cor 4:16 I urge you, then, be imitators of me.
Phil 3:17 Brothers, join in imitating me, and keep your eyes on those who walk according to the example you have in us.
I disagree WILL. I have studied BH teachings and even purchased audio of him and know for a fact that he teaches nonsense and doctrines made up in his own head. The man is either an atheist acting as a minister or he is one of the most deceived men on earth. Personally, I agree with Chris. I think he is an atheist just playing the Christian card and has become very rich doing so. If I were an atheist, I would do this do, because so many people are soooooooo gullible and will believe anything. It would be a quick way to get rich. He isn’t the only fraud out there. Jesus said many would come and I think the Pentecostal movement is full of fakes….
Anyways, my point with this that we are able to look at trees and determine what type of tree it is……
On May 11, 2009 at 12:38 pm lee Said:
lets start with liars……i mean we have to begin
somewhere.
lee
Randy, my basis for not wanting to judge Hinn’s salvation – or anyone else’s for that matter – is based a lot on what I have come to understand of what it meant to the ancient Jewish people when one was called a “fool”.
Do you know why Jesus warned so strongly against calling anyone a fool? Because in the language of the day, “fool” meant “lost fool”. That is, a person who was absolutely, utterly lost, with no hope at all of salvation.
When you think about it in that context, Jesus was telling us that if we judge a person to be damned, then we had better be really careful about our own… because we might be just as much without a hope as that other person is.
I will be the first to admit that I do fail at times, and that my more temporal nature falls to the temptation of deeming another as unworthy of Heaven. That ends the moment I remember that if there was hope for me, there can be hope for anybody.
Randy, I think you and I would probably agree much about the the fruit of Hinn’s spirit. But as long as he has a breath within him, he can still seek for salvation… if he really wants it. In the meantime, I’m going to try not to say that he does have it or that he doesn’t have it.
Randy, all I know to say is if you judge someone as someone you should stay clear of…then stay away from them. If you want to look for all the bad things people do and condemn them, hey seems you should join up with Johnny as they are good at doing that. If you’d rather share darkness and hopelessness and tell people how imperfect they are, well there are plenty of people who are already are there so maybe you won’t have to waste your breath telling them.
Or you can choose to shine His light of love, hope, and peace to other people which I believe changes more lives than all the condemnation the world already gives.
Come on Chris – get real. I am shocked at how some on here acting like they cant even tell what a apple tree looks like vs. a tree with thorns.
This is where I agree totally with Johnny. This is the attitude that is causing many to line up with universalism. Are you an universalist, Chris?
When you see apples hanging from a tree, you know that the tree is rooted on proper ground and fed properly to produce the apple, right? Must the Christian be rooted on proper soil? Must he be fed properly to produce fruit?
I know God is THE judge. But when the church loses its will to discern…it has made itself an open door for anything and everything. You guys constantly judge Johnny on here – well his motives, but then act as though we cant judge. You have even called him and his followers a “cult.”
Will cults be in heaven too?
You contradict yourself. You double talk, Chris. You know a person in a cult is lost and not headed to heaven. That means you judged Johnny.
You can attempt to word around this and water it down, but you called him a cult leader and no cult leader will be in heaven……you JUDGED Johnny…how dare you judge someone – are you God?
Truth, do you not see the ignorance in your statement? You suggest I stop doing the very thing you are doing. Why do you have the right to say Johnny is wrong, and tell me to join them. You are judging again, truth. You said; “If you’d rather share darkness and hopelessness.” Are you suggesting one in darkness can go to heaven? If not, you just judged Johnny to hell. Even if you backtrack and water this down, you still are making judgments.
You guys never fail to amaze me. I think I have it figured out. You guys can watch Johnny on TV, then come on here picking apart his teachings, even call him a cult leader and speak negative of what he does and says, but how dare Johnny act like you. How dare Johnny speak against those he considers wrong! How dare Johnny say someone is headed to hell, if they aren’t in Christ! I guess you guys can only make such judgments.
Randy,
I didn’t tell you to go join Johnny, I said if you do those things it seems you should go join Johnny.
I didn’t tell you to stop judging people, I said if you thought you shouldn’t be around someone then stay away from them.
When I said darkness and hopelessness I meant that there are people who already feel that they are trapped in a hole they can’t get out of and we should be sending them a message that gives them hope.
And by the way I have never said people don’t have the right to say what they believe. I have said that people have the right to worship without being harassed.
OK. Truth. If you say so. I bet you still watch Johnny tonight, wont you. BTW, please don’t take my comments the wrong way. I am just being straight with you………..k, “bro”
Chris, you ask this on your blog:
“if we are commanded to “test the spirits” (1st John 4:1)…
…then how much more so should we boldly question the motivations of mere men?”
You are joking, right? What does John mean by “spirits?” Maybe I am missing your point or something, but it seems you are missing what John is saying, seeing you almost repeated Johns comment with your question.
Randy,
Now you are putting words in my mouth.
I never said a “cult” would never be in Heaven.
For one thing, I don’t deal with issues of salvation of “groups”. In more ways than I care to go into at the moment, the collective mentality is rather abhorrent to me.
What does matter is the individual. God will not judge “Baptists” en masse as being saved or being damned. Neither will He do that for the “Methodists”, or the “Church of Christ”, or anyone else.
Does that mean I regret calling Robertson and his gang a “cult”? No, I don’t. Because that is what they insist on being!
There is no individuality allowed within Robertson’s “Church of Christ”. It is either abide by his way, or one is deemed lost and damned.
So let’s put it in terms of the the individual: HOW does Johnny Robertson dare assert that he has authority from God to judge whether one is saved or not?
How does anyone, for that matter? But since this blog regularly discusses a man who has taken it upon himself to damn millions of people to Hell simply on the basis of their affiliation with a denomination, let’s start asking aloud (along with all the other questions that have gone unanswered): WHERE does Robertson possibly get any basis upon which to judge and damn others?
All this talk on judging.
I don’t mind saying Benny Hinn is going to Hell–just as I don’t mind saying that if Benny Hinn repents of his “we’re all little gods” and mass hypnosis routines and instead obeys God and lives the Christian life then he has just as much chance as any of the children of God to go to Heaven. I certainly wouldn’t say, “he’s going to Hell and there’s nothing anyone can do about it.” But if he died in his current state, I wouldn’t have any problem stating the obvious. There’s a difference in saying one is currently on the road to Hell vs. “once lost always lost.”
Heard a fascinating thought recently. (Maybe on TV somewhere? Maybe on this blog and I forgot?) I hope to relay this to a good friend of mine fairly soon who I think could use it.
Many people say “we shouldn’t judge people for Heaven or Hell” and they avoid like the plague condemning somebody, but then they’ll turn around and talk about all the people they know are in Heaven. That’s not very consistent. That’s like saying, “we shouldn’t judge people for Heaven or Hell only if it’ll hurt somebody’s feelings–which really just means we can play Judge on Heaven but not on Hell” (which kinda puts everyone in Heaven when you think about it). Elsewise, “I know this person’s going to glory, but I don’t want to condemn this other person” insinuates by simple logic (antithesis! heheh) the belief that everyone not talked about is Hellbound.
Personally, this is what I try to do, if it’s of any help. Some people are obviously condemned (Hitler never changed before committing suicide), but those I figure are probably dead and saved in the end, I still won’t come out and say (nor even think) oh I know so-and-so is in Paradise. It’s not like I know what secret sins they may have had. I don’t play Judge there. I’ll just go by fruits and say “I figure they’re likely” or “probably” or “I sure hope to see them” etc. “on the good side” / “Paradise” / “Heaven” / etc.
Chris can’t judge because he doesn’t know he bible
“But as long as he has a breath within him, he can still seek for salvation… if he really wants it. In the meantime, I’m going to try not to say that he does have it or that he doesn’t have it.”
So would you preach to him about salvation if you can’t tell where he stands?
On May 11, 2009 at 11:48 am lee Said:
On April 26, 2009 at 1:08 pm johnny Said:
thanks chris
you said
Think about it, if you can: you have yet to build up any significant case for your own “church” purely on the strength of its own doctrine and beliefs.
this comes from a man who couldn’t go 30 minutes to keep his word on the free time given him to talk about the truth. Instead he had to praise schoooooders cat and show himself on the pot during a religious discussion.
This will be my last post to chris.
I will pay attention to some of the others if I see something new.
I am putting you and the shiek together as that is where you belong.
yes lets weed out all the false teachers.
first lets start with the ones who tell falsehoods.
that would be ok with you right?
lee
hey randy…over here.
lee
faithfull,
You are not making any sense, and so far you have never made any sense.
Do you even know what you claim to believe in?
And is there still any wonder why the “Church of Christ” is dying? Why it is losing people instead of gaining any?
faithfull demonstrates why most sane people are going to flee from the “Church of Christ”. Why would anybody want to join a “church” that demands total and complete obedience to it, to the point that any deviation is punished by not only condemnation but public ridicule on the part of those like faithfull, Robertson, Oldfield etc.?
There is no promise of salvation in the “Church of Christ”. The only thing this cult promises that it’s ever delivered is ridicule and harassment.
Were it not for all the money coming in from other “churches” in Texas, the local “Church of Christ” would have long ago dried up and left town. Well, the Texas money and a television station with management willing to sell out on ethics and principles, too…
I only used Benny Hinn as an example because anyone should be able to see thru him. The question is, how does one come to such a judgment against Benny Hinn? I think we all make such judgments from what we read in scripture. Does the bible teach we are “little gods” as Hinn, Copeland, and many others within the “word faith movement” proclaim? The bible gives no authority to make such claims. This is only one example of the crazy teachings of Benny Hinn. The very reason the professing church is in such bad shape is because we act as though we cant judge such maters. We accept anything and everything…
lets see……
randy doesnt want to talk about johns lying.
whats a matter? pentacostal got your tongues?
ha
lee
The very reason the professing church is in such bad shape is because we act as though we cant judge such maters.
That is the reason, Really?? Randy there are people who don’t go to church because that’s what a lot of “church folks” do – judge people without even really knowing them. Do you realize there are people who want to go to church but don’t because they are told not always directly but by (church folks) people’s actions that they don’t belong there, when those people want to go to church wanting to change their lives. And they won’t never step foot in a church because of this. Does this not bother you, it does me.
Are you “judging” Johnny? You mean you can do this?
Lee, for starters, he may have meant that at first and then changed his mind. I think we all have said things and then changed our minds.
Benny Hinn only adds more nonsese as people like you eat it up…keep falling for HIS lies
“On May 13, 2009 at 10:39 pm Chris Knight Said:
faithfull,
You are not making any sense, and so far you have never made any sense.
Do you even know what you claim to believe in?”
Sorry I don’t speak ignoramous Chris, maybe you can get someone to translate for you.
ahhh thats sweet.
lies lies lies.
i cant eat any more thanks.
those pentacostals really did mess you up huh?
lee
Okay, everyone. These comments are starting to cross a line into being too personal. Let’s get onto a topic and stay on a topic.
Thanks,
ACOC
let me be sure i understand…old randy boy
can say im a bottom feeder at the hinn dinner table.
but i cant call him on it.
just go on and jump in up to your neck randy, johnny
wont let you go under.
lee
I have a question: does James Oldfield understand Proverbs 6 at all?
He referenced the chapter tonight on his broadcast, talking about the things that God hates.
So let us consider Proverbs 6:16-19…
There are six things the LORD hates,
seven that are detestable to him:
- haughty eyes,
The definition of “haughty”: disdainful, having or showing arrogant superiority to and disdain of those one views as unworthy.
Much like believing that because one is a member of a certain “church” that this makes one superior and that all others are to be mocked and scorned.
- a lying tongue,
Like, say, lying about another church and claiming that it is committing child pornography?
- hands that shed innocent blood,
So far the “Church of Christ” followers have not done this but as Jesus notes in Matthew 5, even to harbor hatred in one’s heart is to foster a murderous mind. So I would dare say that anyone who boasts that it is his mission to “defeat destroy” others is treading on thin ice indeed before the Lord.
- a heart that devises wicked schemes,
“Wicked schemes”, most rational people would say, includes deceitfully hiding video cameras, having dissidents (and their children) followed and their homes photographed, etc.
- feet that are quick to rush into evil,
I think the incident of the Baptist church in Bay, Arkansas is but one example of this. Johnny Robertson and his followers can’t resist rushing to, as they put it, “discuss” (which is “Church of Christ” code language for “harass”). Consider also the minister who came to speak in Martinsville early last month: Robertson came on television offering $1000 to anyone who would go into the event and secretly video record what went on. He could not wait to try to get something to hurt another person with.
- a false witness who pours out lies
I can personally vouch for this one. As can many others. When I “spoke my piece” at the Reidsville TV station last June, Robertson came on immediately after me and claimed that I didn’t shake his hand when he offered it. Which is a lie: I never even saw Robertson that evening. I have also been told that numerous “conversations” that Robertson has claimed on television to have had in public never took place at all.
And then you get into hacking up video footage and phone conversations and the like so as to take the words of others out of context, and you soon realize that you are dealing with people who are not only eager but very adept at pouring out lies.
- and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers.
It all comes down to this, folks. This is the only thing the local “Church of Christ” is interested in, since it cannot justify itself as either “the church that you read about in the Bible” or as being representative of Christ and bearing the fruit of the Spirit.
Does the local “Church of Christ” try to stir up dissent? “Does a dog have fleas?”
But as I wrote last week: Robertson, Oldfield, and their followers have yet to “defeat destroy” a single church in more than a quarter-century of trying to do so…
…with the exception of their own congregations.
I am a little behind…but thanks, Nathan!
I have tried to stay out of these discussions for awhile now, but felt like that needed to be said. I just wish they would read it and think about it!!
Truth…you are RIGHT on target!! Keep preaching it!!
let try this
Ro 4:1 ¶ What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
gotta read Genesis and “flesh” passages that directly relate to Abraham
Paul will always help on this since he never speaks just once on such subjects
Ga 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Abraham learned that trying to accomplish God’s plan by works of flesh will not bring about the “promised” blessing!
Here Abraham 15 years after Ishmael was born
Ge 17:8 And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!
God responds
Ge 17:19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac:
What has father Abraham found “as pertaining to the flesh” ? God’s child of promise will not be born through “will of the flesh”
Wow… that is John 1
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
So Abraham had to go to the “barren” womb of Sarah, and believe that going through motions that cannot\have not ever produced what he sought, will now do so.
Isaac was the child of a promise & faith in that promise (along with the “faith act” of Abraham, going through the motions that produce children)
Ga 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
today we are born again!
Born of water and the Spirit John 3:5
having relations with Sarah was not “works” but it was faith in the promise, and the the child that came forth came forth of the Spirit
Ga 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
works of the flesh in Abraham”s case was trying to create a new birth outside the promise
the promise was made to Abraham with Sarah, not with Hagar
today we look at going into water to accomplish a new birth and it seems so impossible. But when you put a promise of God with it, nothing is impossible with God (Gen 18:14)
Abraham did not consider the elements that could not normally produce results (deadness of Sarah’s womb, nor his own body now 100
Ro 4:19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara’s womb:
He gave the glory to God and went right on in there to his wife and went through motions that never accomplished anything before
wade on into the water and be immersed and GIVE GOD THE GLORY
it is not boasting on your part when you do something so ridiculous that you have so many times done before (as in swimming & bathing)but this time expecting that some how some way WHAT GOD HAS PROMISED HE CAN PERFORM! ( I am shouting to God’s glory here Nathan ; from the house top if you will, so please allow it mat 10:27
it is trusting in the working of God
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation(energeia -working) of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 ¶ And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
if God wanted to bring life from a dead womb could he? can he bring life from a pool of water?
If he promises to do it, it will happen and we will call it birth of water and the Spirit, just as child Isaac was promised and came forth from dead womb by the Spirit!
TO GOD BE THE GLORY when people don’t “stagger” in unbelief in His unbelievable promises!
What did Abraham find from the flesh? You can’t come up with another plan of flesh… “faith only” or what ever and expect to get the new birth
if God promised
Mr 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
let God worry about “performing” his promise… Rom 4:21
give him glory and do the impossible!
Lu 7:29 And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.
30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.