Norm and Mark visit a Baptist Church
I just received this message from (I assume) the pastor of Vandola Baptist in Danville. It is a first hand testimony of what happens when one of our three hosts pays your church a visit.
“Our church, Vandola Baptist in Danville, was visited by Norm Fields and Mark McMinnis on Wednedsay, April 16. It just so happened that this particular night was the last night of our Spring Revival with Dr. Ron Crawford, a former pastor and current President of the Baptist Theological Seminary at Richmond. As you would expect there was a “discussion” with Fields and McMinnis after the service.
Let me share with you that from the very beginning of our worship service these two representatives of the churches of Christ displayed nothing less than utter contempt for our worship and our membership. We began the service with a responsive reading that was printed in our worship bulletin. The congregation stood for the responsive reading which was followed by a hymn (accompanied by musical instruments of course). Fields and McMinnis remained seated throughout all of this as well as at the conclusion of the service when we stood and sang an invitational hymn. I, by the way, went to the pew where they were seated toward the back of the sanctuary where I greeted them and sat with them during the preaching of the message by our guest speaker. Norm diligently wrote notes and I assume points of contention throughout the message.
As they left from the sanctuary, Norm asked Dr. Crawford if he could talk with him to inquire about some of the things he had said during the message. Dr. Crawford informed Norm that he was leaving to go back to Richmond as soon as he finished greeting folks but that he would consent to give him a few moments. Norm had already began questioned Dr. Crawford on the outside porch when I walked up. I interrupted them and asked Norm directly if he was using any audio or video devices to record the conversation and he responded that he was unable to bring either because of some malfunction with his equipment. He asked me if I was using such and I replied that I was not and if I had been I would have told him in advance that I was and that he should do the same whenever he used recording devices. (Should anyone see or hear a recording of this discussion that I am describing on any of the CoC broadcasts be sure to call on air and ask if deliberate lying is a teaching of Scripture.)
At any rate, it didn’t take long for Dr. Crawford to detect Norm’s attempt to haggle over perceived syntax errors and so Dr. Crawford dismissed him and said he would speak no further with him. Norm, of course, began his spill about “Crawford’s refusal to speak the truth of God”. Unfortunately, at this point, one of our not so diplomatic members spoke out of turn and said that he would be glad to meet Norm out back to take care of his questions to which Norm ask if the man was threatening him. I injected that no one was going to threaten him (I did notice that Norm left from the porch area where we were rather quickly). I attempted to explain to Norm that one of the reasons folks became so upset with them was certainly because of their blatant display of contempt in our worship service. I asked Norm why he had refused to stand and/or participate in our worship to which he responded that he could not (spoken with the perceived implication that he could not because our service was not true worship approved of God). As a result I asked Norm if that was the case, then why did he come then to our worship service knowing that he “could not” out of his pure conscience participate. He said he came to learn and to give us an opportunity to explain why we did what we did and what we believed. I refuted that notion with the comment that he already knew what Baptist taught, how Baptist worshipped and what Baptist believed and that the only reason he was there was to continue to show his disdain for Baptist people as he did each week on his broadcast program. With that we parted ways.
Can’t wait to see how this is presented on the CoC local broadcast. Should Norm be reading this blog, let me apologize to him for any perceived rude behavior on the part of any of our folks. We are not perfect people and there are still those who become easily angered and/or offended in spirited debate especially when agitated by those who know which buttons to push.”
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I am a part of the Church of Christ heritage. I came across your post while tag-surging. I’m ashamed that there are those within our fellowship (C of C) that act in such a childish way. If it were possible to apologize for them, I would. It was disrespectful of them to act that way towards spirit minded and/or spirit filled people. We are not all that way.
Peace to you.
Jason
Hi Jason,
Thanks for your comment, and I appreciate your thoughts on this. I took a look at your blog, and really enjoyed reading the articles you posted. In fact, I might re-post one or two of them here, if it’s okay with you.
Please feel free to visit often! We’d love your input.
Blessings,
Nathan
I am the daughter of the pastor of Vandola Baptist and I was sure to watch Norm’s program on Cable TV yesterday evening, knowing that his visit to Vandola would be mentioned. And it was. Mr. Fields received a phone call from me when he began to speak of my father and the members at Vandola as unsaved people. It strikes me odd that Norm in all his quoting of scripture could not seem to reconcile my arguments that salvations comes from Jesus Christ. I am beginning to wonder if the church of Christ even acknowledges Christ at all. Norm, on air, last night hardly mentioned the name of Jesus and accused of me not being saved because I prayed to God and asked forgiveness of my sins. Which is very comical to me that he would tell me such a thing. So because I believe in the Son of God, believe in his life, death, and ressurection, confessed my sins to him and received forgiveness, repented of those sins… I’m not saved. But he is because he just believed and got dunked. Interesting. The Bible I read speaks of Jesus Christ as THE way, as the Savior, as the Son of God… and though the Bible mentions baptistm, I don’t believe I have ever read the words “holy water” in reference to a person being immersed. It seems to me that Mr. Fields is hardly the person that should be condemning others or calling people “unsaved”, when he himself seems to be uncomfortable with the concept of salvation through Christ Jesus.
Nathan,
I don’t mind if you re-post at all. Thanks for taking the time to look. I have permission from the authors to put their content online, so there isn’t any problem there.
Peace,
Jason
Hi Katie,
I’m glad you called in on Norm’s show, and glad you stopped by this blog. I would encourage you to poke around this blog a bit to get an understanding of the things that these men teach. The reason is that they’ve debated and discussed doctrine with people from just about every Christian background, and they love to do this. But, they are prepared. On the other hand, I find that the majority of people who call in their program don’t know squat about the CofC, and so don’t know how to discuss with them. I didn’t see the program, and so can’t comment on your discussion with Norm, although it sounds from your description that you handled yourself well.
One of the things I want this blog to be is a place where people can come and find out about hyperconservative Churches of Christ before they attempt to confront these men. There are plenty of holes in their doctrine, but if you don’t know their doctrine, you can’t know the holes. And they are also quite good at putting people very quickly on the defensive. Folks need to learn how to put the shoe on the other foot.
Another good educational blog is http://churchesofchrist.wordpress.com - started by a former CofC person. There are many others out there - I will eventually get a blogroll together so it is easier to find them from here.
But again, make sure before you confront them again that you understand their POV - otherwise they are really, really good at attacking. The worst thing you can do is call in without being prepared, because it will just give them ammunition for later broadcasts, for fundraising in other parts of the country, and it will embolden their small but loyal CofC viewing audience.
I’m sorry that they chose to “invade” the church where your father preaches, but on the flip side, it could be a good opportunity for Vandola Baptist to understand these men and what they teach, as well as gaining a better understanding of Scripture and your own doctrine.
Blessings, and come again soon!
Nathan
Thanks Nathan,
I knew a bit about their doctrine before calling in last night. I think I put him on the defensive a few times too. It was a good debate I thought. But you are absolutely right, in order to effectively debate their POV, education is vital.
I will look into more of the sites you posted and gain further knowledge so that if I am toe to toe again with any of the CofC followers I will be that much more prepared.
God bless,
Katie
Hi again, Katie,
Didn’t mean to insinuate that you were going in blind - I’ve just seen so many times where people call in at the heat of the moment (heck, I’ve done it myself).
And these men tend to bring out the worst in others. Which has fascinated me for the longest time, considering that they are supposed to be trying to win non-CofC folks to their doctrine. They seem to think they can catch more flies with vinegar than with honey.
Blessings,
Nathan
Nathan,
You’re fine, didn’t feel you were saying anything wrong.
And you are right about trying to catch more flies with vinegar than honey. I guess I shouldn’t be so surprised but it really never ceases to amaze me the way people will misconstrue God’s Word to fit their needs or their argument.
In Christ,
Katie
Thanks Jason for your comments. I am very much aware that the attitudes displayed by our 3 local CoC leaders are representative of a small group of antagonists.
As I wrote in the note above, I expressed to Norm at the conclusion of the service that I felt he showed nothing but contempt for our worship during his visit. On Norm Fields April 17 televised broadcast he took offense to my accusation that he and Mark had shown contempt toward our church and that I evidently didn’t know the meaning of the word contempt. Well, let’s see. Thorndike Barnhart Comprehensive Desk Dictionary’s definition of the word contempt is as follows: “1. The feeling that a person, act or thing is mean, low or worthless; scorn; a despising. 2. condition of being scorned or despised; disgrace. 3. Law. Disobedience to or open disrespect for the rules or decisions of a law court, a lawmaking body, etc. Syn. 1. disdain.”
During his broadcast, Norm freely expressed that he had a disdain for Baptist teaching of Scripture and for Baptist worship. In essence he explained that our worship was not worthy of his participation or acknowledgement because “we were not Scriptural“ and “we were not Christian“. He knew before he came to our church what we taught, how we taught it and how we worshipped. To display his disdain for our “worthless worship” he chose to remain seated during our responses, prayers and singing. If his attitude of publicly declared disdain (to look down on, to consider beneath oneself), if his stated perception that Baptist teaching and style of worship is low or worthless in comparison to his church of Christ meetings and if his blatant public display of disrespect for the elements of our worship service in our own building among our own people is not a vivid display of the definition of contempt then the word should be removed from the dictionary.
But, of course, I did come to realize through all of this that Norm Fields and associates basically consider all Christians outside of their CoC fellowship as unsaved ignorant pagans who promote a false god. Therefore I should not be surprised at their hostile (of an enemy or enemies; opposed; unfriendly; unfavorable; antagonistic) action toward us.
Rick and Katie,
I am sorry that these guys have given you an awful impression and left a bad taste in your mouth for those in the “Church of Christ”. I can tell you that they most definitely do not speak for all of us, and I am almost positive that they would not even see me, a member of the “Church of Christ” as a real Christian because I do not fall in line with the majority of their beliefs, and will not stand in the throne room of condemnation. It is incredibly sad and disheartening for me to see men like this, especially those who CALL themselves “ministers” act in this manner and then have the nerve to actually attach the name of Jesus onto it and believe they are acting for Him. You are right, Katie-Jesus is not a part of that, neither is love, mercy, grace, compassion…or any of the attributes that encompass who Jesus REALLY is or why He came to earth to die on a cross for our sins. He died for THE BODY of Christ, not this church or that church-but for His people, and that has never been limited to whatever name is outside your building. Even our own heritage was began with a plea for unity and to say “We are Christians only, but not the only Christians” and that has been turned into something completely different and wrong to the core. The even worse thing is that they are very smug in this idea and are so blinded that not even the Word of God can make them aware of their blindness. It is all about debating, defending, and pointing out everyone else’s failures and “false doctrine” when they in fact are the ones doing the exact same thing they accuse everyone else of. Yet, most other people can see it for what it is and them for who they are. They will be their own downfall, unfortunately.
Thankfully, there are MANY in the “Church of Christ” who embrace the meaning of God’s grace, recognize and embrace the larger body of Christ while still honoring our heritage-but ashamed of the sectarian and divisive side that these guys represent.
Anyway, I just wanted to throw that in for Rick, Katie, and anyone else who is reading. Please know they are only a minority-unfortunately they tend to be the most vocal, but are still few in number.
Blessings to you all~
Katie,
Again I find myself ashamed of these men who for some reason think they represent the one and only true church where they believe legelism is essential to salvation. They need to sit down and read Galations-probably been torn out of their bibles. As a member of the COC let me say that your worship of our lord and savior is between you and Him and if you feel blessed by your worship, you are, and He’s with you there.
I recently got a chance to go to church with my grandmother- the first Methodist worship I’d ever been to. My uncle was preaching for his first time. He preached a sermon from Max Lucado’s (a COC minister)book, John 3:16. I’m so glad the bug of legelism hasn’t bit me because I was truly blessed by that day.
Hateful men are just that- “HATE”. I know it appears that these men speak for the COC, in reality they are to the Church of Christ what Fred Phelps is to the Baptist Church.
Grace to you.
Dennis
Thank you for your comments Dennis and Katherine. Reading your comments I discern a spirit of love and grace and I feel a comradrie with you both that is shared when people share a relationship with Christ.
It is amazing that they are so badly misrepresenting the CofC, according to you both, and I am thankful that all those who claim to be CofC do not share their same sentiments.
Bless you both,
Katie
Katie,
I live on the other side of the country. Believe me when I say that the conservative church is still alive and growing. We believe strongly in the authority of the scriptures, and we know the plan of salvation written in the scriptures is the right plan. We don’t believe God has given us the authority to make up our own plans such as “sinners prayer” or having an “emotional experience” for salvation. The libs who believe anything goes are the minority and are dying off. Eventually they just become baptists. Why not they belive the same?
Sadly, folks like Norm have the loudest voice in our denomination but surely not the largest. Just a few southern/midwestern churches believe this garbage. I will apologize for them. They do not speak for me or anyone I know affiliated with the CoC. They are Christians in name only and I am sorry that they give the rest of us a bad name. They are a dying breed, their views will not be around long.
What specific views would you say they are wrong on JP???
Let me ask you JP.
What do I have to do to become a Christian?
I have given up debating folks from the legalistic side of the Churches of Christ JC. Its gets old quite fast and is utterly frustrating. They will simply not listen and would rather defend their traditions then listen to anyone.
No thank you.
…let me add, I would defend your beliefs to the cows come home (though I strongly disagree) its the condemning and judging of other Christians that drive us nuts as if somehow God has granted you all the special gift of private infallible interpretation
Modern day Pharisees of the highest order.
What were they trying to prove by publicly disrespecting an entire group of worshipers? Rudely confronting others at a church service is probably not the best way to express their points of view on scripture. Think of the time that wasted on this expenditure. The sad part is that the core beliefs of the Baptists and the COC denominations are very similar. The world is rotten with sin, pain, and despair and all these men are concerned with is another congregation’s tradition of worship style! Are you kidding me? Think how things could be if they tried working with other Christians instead of looking for fights.
49″Master,” said John, “we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us.” 50″Do not stop him,” Jesus said, “for whoever is not against you is for you.” Luke 9
It isn’t a real church service…. and they are not “other christians” if they have not followed the plan of salvation found over and over in the New Testament…
Also using Luke 9 is as weak as water for this situation. The one in Luke 9 is not teaching a different doctrine than Jesus taught.
If there are 2 opposing doctrines they can’t both be right. Someone has to be wrong. Either the bible is true and we can “know the truth” or it is false and everyone is all right….
Denominations are the best weapon satan has.
1. Denomination = Division
2. Denominations elevate mans teaching above God’s stated teachings.
3. Denominations cause people to believe that you really can’t know the truth since even among religious people there are so many divisions.
4. Denominations cause people to teach the church Jesus bought and paid for with his blood is not important. example “Go to the church of your choice”
5. If we would all just teach the same thing taught in scripture, (how to be saved, how to worship God, and how to live), there would be no such thing as denominations…
Let me guess JC - You are right and everyone else is wrong - you have it all PERFECTLY fiqured out don’t you? You guys need to come off your high horse of pride and stop pretending as if you have arrived at some level of PERFECTIOIN. When will you guys learn to love people and not want and desire to find the wrong that you “think” they have…its you guys who are causing splits and sects that Paul clearly preached against. BTW, I was once just like you…I use to love to take “my views” and prove other people of “denominations” wrong, boy how prideful and stupid I was !! And I know every single reply you may throw at me, so dont waste your time.
Lets say, JC, that we all, in our private authoritative intepretations can figure out all doctine 100%. How do YOU know that yours is correct. With all the denominations that exist, all trying to be faithful to the Word of God, how can we trust your interpretations? Most except Sola Scriptura like you.
Enlighten us.
“It isn’t a real church service…. and they are not “other Christians” if they have not followed the plan of salvation found over and over in the New Testament…”
- Correction. They do not follow the “plan of salvation” you have been taught is found over and over in the NT. Which of course happens to be the “plan of salvation” your particular religious movement adheres to.
“Also using Luke 9 is as weak as water for this situation. The one in Luke 9 is not teaching a different doctrine than Jesus taught.”
Says who? You? Do you possess flawless scripture interpretation?
JC said:
It isn’t a real church service…. and they are not “other christians” if they have not followed the plan of salvation found over and over in the New Testament…
…and who are you, God? Who gave you the authority to sit in the throne room of condemnation and judge? Your initials are JC-do you think you are Jesus Christ?
This is not what God has called us to do-how can you not see that??!!
Definition of demonination-
1. A large group of religious congregations united under a common faith and name and organized under a single administrative and legal hierarchy.
By this denomination, Mr. “JC”, you are STILL part of a denomination. The people that I have encountered that are CofC’ers do EVERYthing that you listed as the “evils” of denomination.
Norm and Johnny spark division and do everything in their power to sway public opinion. They MOST definitely have attempted to elevate themselves. I have been interested to learn that it’s not what the Bible says that concerns them but what hey can twist the Bible to mean. They claim that ONLY THEY can know the truth and their truth the end all be all (never mind the millions of believers across the world that read the same Bible they do).
Your fourth point could NOT be further from the truth. In my conversation with Norm Fields I consistently referred to the necessity of Jesus Christ and he consistently brushed aside my words and all but ignored the name of Jesus. So you tell ME who is making Jesus’ blood to be “unimportant”. It certainly is NOT me.
Lastly, if we all taught the same thing then I guess we would be perfect which is what I’m coming to understand all CofC’ers believe they are… at least the breed that you stem from. There are difference in human beings… plain and simple and so yes there may be slight variances here and there when us IMPERFECT humans attempt to interpret scripture. HOWEVER, I find it extraordinarily odd that you Mr. JC, Norm Fields, and Johnny Robertson believe that you are privy to some divine interpretation of Scripture that millions of others are not privy too. We all are reading the same passages, the difference is that the rest of us are not bending and twisting those passages to suit our will and needs, we are reading them as they were intended to read and adding NOTHING that promotes are our own agenda.
“The libs who believe anything goes are the minority and are dying off. Eventually they just become baptists. Why not they belive the same?”
JC, How do you know this?
Most “libs” as you say don’t believe “anything goes”-that is just what you think they believe. You would most likely consider me a one of those “libs” in the “Church of Christ”, but I am not going anywhere, and neither are the majority of us. Because we see the good amidst the bad theology and divisiveness in our heritage, and want to stay and see it spurred on. We know we are not the ONLY ones going to heaven, and recognize the BODY of Christ. There is ONE God, but all of the believers make up His BODY, and to limit that is like spitting on the cross where our Lord bled and died for our sins.
It is absurd to say “eventually they become Baptists” and wrong to even want that-that is EXACTLY what continues to divide and conquer-and is far from the essence of who Christ was or what he prayed for.
Just a few of my thoughts…
excuse the spelling errors and typos
I have three children underfoot this Saturday morning.
Amen, Katie-very well said
It amazes me how they will run from the term “denomination” when in reality that is exactly what they have become. Jesus is no longer the focus-man made doctrine and agendas are. Then the focus is no longer to help people to Jesus-but to the “right” doctrine and THEIR truth, which is far from Jesus, but they simply cannot see that. It is very sad that they boldly proclaim this and will not listen to anyone else-EVEN the Word of God itself. It is even worse that the whole premise is thoroughly illogical, not to mention unBiblical-yet they think they can defend and fight till the end-accusing, slandering, and attacking while justifying it all because somehow “the Bible tells them to”. How in the world is that being Jesus? It’s not, and it will never get the Good News of His amazing Gospel to a lost world who needs Him so badly. I really wonder if they could take all of that time, money, and energy from attacking everyone else and their beliefs; and put it into actually sharing the simple and beautiful message of Jesus to people. Amazing what they could do!!
Katherine, you and I are so on the same page!

Where is JC to defend their opinions?
To give you further insight into the obsurd thinking of the local coC folks let me share with you some of the points of contention with our church service that Norm Fields expressed on his April 17 cable broadcast. Each of these items listed below Norm express that they are not permitted in the New Testament church. These are the things that Norm had issues of contention with in our services:
1. The choir wore robes.
2. The choir was in an area “separated” from the people (ie choir loft).
3. The congregation clapped at the conclusion of the special music presented by the choir
4. The music was accompanied by musical instruments.
5. The offering plate was passed for a love offering recieved in support of the speaker.
6. The pastor (me of course!) came and sat with them during the message. (I did use deodorant that evening I promise)
All of these above things, including number 6 as well I would assume, was opposed by Norm because there is no example of these things evident in the New Testament church presented in Scripture. In this line of thinking then may I ask: Are pews allowed? How about carpet, light bulbs, hymn books, flowers, curtains, stained glass, microphones, speakers etc. May men wear suits, ladies wear dresses. May we have a time to give announcements, recieve prayer requests? Examples of these are not spelled out in Scripture in the New Testament church.
Please let me know quickly. This is Saturday evening. Church is tommorrow! Oh my what must I do!
May your Sunday worship not be so stressful.
I’ve been reading this blog for quite some time now and have refrained from “entering the fray” of reponding to any partcular issues of doctrine for a couple of reasons. One being that I am a minister within the churches of Christ and I have been holding out hope that many of the accusations leveled against Johnny, Norm, et. al, were, at the very least, overblown. Another reason was that I thought that there might be some ulterior motives by the blog writers who might have some preconceived bias against the church of Christ. The more I have read and watched on YouTube, I now must let go of the hope I had held on to. It saddens me to see the motives and tactics these men employ in the name of Christ.
I believe that we are saved by the Grace of God through faith in his Son and that each individual must decide for themselves whether or not they will accept this offer of grace. I believe that the bible teaches this acceptance of grace and therefore salvation comes through baptism (not a work done to earn salvation but an act of faith on the part of a believer). I also believe that there are certain examples in the NT that show us how the church worshipped and that by incorporating these examples in the present day then we are on safe ground.
One thing I haven’t seen discussed here (and I could have missed it) is this, if we as flawed humans can depend on God’s grace to cover error in our personal lives then why cant we trust God’s grace to cover doctrinal error?
Most all would agree that in our personal lives, God is willing to extend his grace liberally to cover our transgressions as long as our hearts are set on Him and doing his will as best as we can (see 1 John). I believe that this is also the case when it comes to our worship as well. No one can claim to have the “market cornered” or know all things perfectly.
I would love to hear your thoughts.
One more thing, for as long as I have been involved in the churches of Christ (and I grew up in the c of C), I have never heard of the ambush tactics that you are experiencing in your area.
Rick,
Sorry about what happened at the service. Do not try to make sense of garbage like that. They have adopted a completely irrational approach to the scriptures. Also, do not expect to get any clear answers from them about the “extra-biblical” elements of their church service. (Instrument banning, song leaders, pitch pipes, buildings, paid preachers, weekly communion, welches grape juice instead of wine, Youth Ministers, Wed. night Bible class, etc.) Just not going to happen.
Slooow Dooowwwnnnnn
Are you Judging me? For Judging??
How about the question?
I am asking you to tell me
What must I do to be saved???
and please give the verses…
When is it OK for us to judge what is right or wrong???
If it is not OK to judge other peoples doctrines then you guys need to quit preaching against sin. Nor would it be OK for you to say that someone is not going to heaven if they don’t “ask Jesus in their heart”…
JC you are a walking contradiction.
You just said “when is it OK for us to judge what is right or wrong?” and then in the next post wanted to know why you can’t “judge other people’s doctrines”.
If you want the truth. YES I AM JUDGING YOU. I am judging you in accordance with scripture. I am not coming at you saying I’m perfect (ie, I have examined the plank in my own eye) and I am saying to you that the CofC’ers such as yourself are misrepresenting scripture and doing so openly and loudly. So I have EVERY RIGHT TO “judge” you…. it’s call “calling false doctrine… false”… and that my friend is whatI have experienced from “listening” to you, Norm, and Johnny… a bunch of false, man-made doctrine.
JC, you have asked the question “what must you do to get saved”.
I shall lay it out for you.
In John 3:16, scripture says (and I will quote from the KJV since Norm seems to think that’s THE only form of scripture that is acceptable… nevermind the original hebrew and greek).” For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life”.
This tells us that our God sent His Son, Jesus to the world to bring us everlasting life, ie. salvation.
In Romans we are told the following.
3:23- For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God
6:23- For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
So these two verses tell us that ALL ARE SINNERS and the debt for that sin is DEATH. Jesus Christ brought us LIFE.
How do we receive that life??
Romans 10:9-10; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
So here we are told that salvation from the sin (refer to Romans 3:23 and 6:23) happens through belief in Jeuss Christ, that God raised Him from the dead. Right there it says “thou shalt be saved”.
I lead you onto John 14:6 where Jesus Christ Himself says, Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Therefore, upon looking at John 3:16 we see that Christ sent us His Son to bring us eternal life. Why? Because according to Romans 3:23 and 6:23 we are sinners who are to DIE apart from that eternal life. And in Romans 10:9-10 we are told that salvation is received upon believe in Jesus Christ. Belief in what?? Belief that God raised Him from the dead.
And just to recap, John 14:6 says that Jesus is THE way to the father, NO ONE COMES through anything but Jesus.
How’s that “JC”?
Norm, Johnny and all the rest of these guys need prayer. They don’t realize they are missing out on the joy of the Lord. There Doctrine makes God look like a Dictator instead of a loving Father. I think they need help. And The power of God can come on them like never before if they will just open there hearts.
Romans is a letter written to Christians. Why not back up in the letter to Chapter 6Ro 6:1 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were BAPTIZED INTO JESUS CHRIST were baptized into his death?
4 THEREFORE we are BURIED WITH HIM BY BAPTISM INTO DEATH: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For IF WE HAVE BEEN PLANTED TOGETHER IN THE LIKENESS OF HIS DEATH, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 FOR HE THAT IS DEAD IS FREED FROM SIN.
8 Now IF WE BE DEAD WITH CHRIST, we believe that we shall also LIVE WITH HIM:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
“Shalt be saved” future tense
(Confess UNTO or in the direction of Salvation)
“Were Baptized INTO his death” Past tense
“old man is crucified with him” Present Tense (Baptism INTO Christ)Gal 3:27 Romans 6:3
confession and belief are unto salvation or they are in the direction of salvation.
But leave off Baptism and no one gets INTO Christ…or Do you have another verse to prove such?
To repeat what u said NO ONE comes to the father thru anything but Jesus. I say amen. Yes you do have to be INTO JESUS and the only way I find is in Baptism.
Who is a canidate to be baptized one who has believed enough in Jesus to put it into action by repenting, confessing and then being baptized for the remission of sins. Acts 2:38
When is your old man crucified with Christ?
“IF” is a conditional word with profound meaning…
What “IF” we have not been planted together in the likeness of his death???????????
Dane, I totally agree-people with that mentality can be utterly frustrating, but I am praying that God can pierce their hearts and souls with His amazing love and power-because I know He is the only one that can.
The only reason norm and Mark went to the Baptist church is to start trouble. You see these folks don’t understand the whole truth. What they try to do is cause trouble simply because they cannot find joy themself. John 10:10 says
The thief doesn’t come except to steal, kill, and to destroy. But I(JESUS) came to give you life and life more abundantly.
So what they try to do is steal joy from other Christians. That doesn’t sound like the ONE TRUE CHURCH to me. They have no right to judge others and start stuff with other Christians. God help these Guys.
Dane
Is JC the only Campbellite in here?
Amen again, Dane.
Well, I am a member of the “Church of Christ”-born and raised in it, but recognize the larger body of Christ and know that I am not a part of the “one true church”. Actually, I was never taught that and I am thankful-because I would hate to be burdened under that kind of mentality and be subject to a God who is a dictator. I recognize our history in the Stone-Campbell and Restoration movement, but would not call myself a Campbellite-which Campbell actually spoke against that. He did not want anyone to wear his name as their identity. They were trying to get away from that and declare themselves “Christians only, but not the only Christians” which has been turned around into “We are the only Christians” by those in the camp of these guys. I am a Christian, bought by the blood of Jesus and saved by Him. My loyalties lie not in the institution of the “Church of Christ”-though I love and embrace that family-while realizing there is a larger family of Christ. Our salvation is found in Jesus and Him alone.
From JC: What “IF” we have not been planted together in the likeness of his death???????????
JC, tell us all how being buried in water pictures being placed in a tomb? Lets say Paul does mean water here, would not this apply to those in other denominations who have been baptized in water. According to Col 2:12 God does the work in baptism. I know the argumenst here too JC. You will say ” but one must be baptized for the right purpose” - unto forgiveness of sins, in other words he must understand what baptism is all about before it makes God do His work. I find it odd that we so often leave off the end of Acts 2:38…and you will recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit. How must of that did you understand when you were baptized ?? Per your theology, if one doesnt understand it all, somehow that causes God not to do as He promised - Mark 16:16. I guess if you failed to understand what “the gift of the Hold Spirit is at the moment you were baptized, your baptism is not valid. Your own views hang you JC. I know just about every cofC person didnt have a clue about the ” the last part of Acts 2:38 ” when they were baptized. If your gonna stress the verse nust be “fully” understood before God forgives you, then use the entire verse, not just part of it. Again, JC, I know each arugument you may have - I have used them myself…
Below is a great article from a church of Christ preacher - nothing like from our guys on TV. Johnny and crew never tell people this - read it and you will know why
Rebaptism for “The Right Purpose”
Why introduce this over-worked subject again? It is because we in the Church of Christ have let it block the path to unity. Our rejection of others because they were not baptized purposely “for the remission of sins” separates us from the greater portion of believers. In this, we have become rejecting judges denying the very validity of the discipleship of others.
We in the Church of Christ probably have discussed baptism more than any other group because we have considered it of more importance than most other Christian groups. It seems that by now we should have laid the subject to rest. I think I have dealt with the subject sufficiently for my readers in general in my books. However, now being on the Web with new readers who are not familiar with the views I have expressed, I hope this essay may offer some helpful clarification.
In proclaiming Jesus’ promise that “he who believes and is baptized will be saved,” we have also used the emphatic statement of Peter on Pentecost, “Repent, and be baptized every of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins” (Mk. 16:16; Acts 2:38). Although most all Christian groups practice baptism as an act of obedience to Christ, they generally teach that believing is the only necessary action of obedience in order to receive forgiveness. So they think they are saved before obedience in baptism. Since those persons are not baptized purposely “for the forgiveness of your sins,” many of my people contend that those persons should be rebaptized specifically for that purpose.
By denying the validity of the baptism of such persons, many in the Church of Christ actually deny that such persons are saved, and they offer them no fellowship or admission into their congregations. So this goes beyond friendly discussion about accepting disciples and is made the basis of rejection. Rebaptism becomes a dividing issue.
Let me clarify this point in the beginning. Allowing God to be God who may make gracious exceptions as he may choose, I am convinced that ordinarily baptism is an essential action on the part of the sinner in accepting the grace of God bestowed in Christ. The contention of this essay is that one is not required to understand each and every purpose or result of baptism in order for God to fulfill those purposes and effects.
Is “for the remission of your sins” a part of the command or a part of the promise? If it is a part of the command, then one is required to understand that purpose and to be immersed specifically for that purpose. If it is a part of the promise, then it is fulfilled by God to the one obeying his command to be immersed whether that person understands fully or not.
If, in order for baptism to be valid, one must understand its purpose, let us look at the stated purposes. In Peter’s declaration on Pentecost, he first called for convicting faith. Then he called for them to repent and be baptized in order for their sins to be forgiven. Can anyone deny that both faith and repentance, in addition to immersion, are necessary for the remission of sins? Faith, repentance, and baptism are (1) for the forgiveness of sins and (2) to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Shortly after Pentecost, Peter delivered a similar discourse at Solomon’s Porch. Even though baptism is not mentioned specifically, he called for faith and, “Repent therefore, and turn again, (3) that your sins may be blotted out, (4) that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and (5) that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, whom heaven must receive until the time for establishing all that God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from of old” (Acts 3:11-22. Numbering added). If a candidate for baptism must understand these five stated purposes and have them in mind for his baptism to be valid, woe is me! I am a goner, a dead duck! I did not fully comprehend them all at that time and I still do not 62 years later! What about you? Were you baptized purposely in order to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit? Why make an issue of one promise and not the other? In the one account of rebaptism in the Scriptures, converts of Apollos were asked by Paul, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” We are not told of any inquiry into the understood purpose of their prior baptisms (Acts 19:1-9).
Commands are to be obeyed, but how do you obey a promise? When Jesus announced, “He who believes and is baptized shall be saved,” he set forth two things that a person can do and the result that God will accomplish. The promised result was not a part of the command. It cannot be obeyed. Neither were any of the five promises enumerated above parts of the command. These are not things a person can do. In Matthew’s account of the Great Commission, no mention is made of the purpose or promise connected with baptism (Matt. 28:18-20), yet we can be confident that God saved those who were obedient.
Judean disciples in the Jerusalem church were convinced that circumcision, in addition to obedience in baptism, was necessary to be saved, yet no question is raised about the validity of their baptisms (Acts 15).
Other purposes were fulfilled through baptism in response to faith and repentance also. I shall continue the numbering begun above. We are baptized (6) into Christ (Gal. 3:27; Rom. 6:3-4). By our baptism we are brought (7) into the one body, (
the church (1 Cor. 12:13; Col. 1:18). It is through this obedience that we are (9) born again, (10) become a child of God, and (11) enter the kingdom of God (John 3:3-5; Gal. 3:26-27). There we find (12) newness of life (Rom. 6:3-4) and (13) are circumcised with the circumcision of Christ (Col. 2:11-14).
These are things that God through his Spirit accomplished in and for us when we obeyed him in baptism, whether we understood it or not. If one must have had those purposes in mind prior to baptism, then few of us could have confidence that God’s promises were fulfilled in us. Most of us would need rebaptism! Isn’t it amazing how we become hung up on one point!
There is no Biblical record that all the purposes listed above were explained to a person before baptism. The last eight of them were explained to disciples after their baptisms to assure them of what God had accomplished in and for them when he saved them.
Perhaps it will put things in better perspective to look again at the records of conversions in Acts. On Pentecost Peter was addressing the very people who had called out for the crucifixion of Jesus. His discourse was designed to turn them from rejecters to believers in Jesus as the Christ. His powerful presentation of Christ caused them to recognize the horrible thing they had done so that they felt doomed. They called out in despair asking rhetorically what they could do when they thought their case was hopeless. They were probably surprised and greatly relieved when Peter told them simply to repent and be baptized in order to receive forgiveness and the gift of the Holy Spirit.
In Samaria (Acts 8), to these people who had been rejected by the Jews but were eager to serve God, the need for repentance and forgiveness was not mentioned, but great numbers of them were baptized eagerly in acceptance of Christ. A similar pattern is seen as the righteous Ethiopian gladly expressed his acceptance of, and allegiance to, Jesus as his Savior. They were not escaping impending doom due to heinous sins so much as aligning themselves with the one who would save them.
Saul’s circumstance was similar to that of the Jews on Pentecost. Being convicted by an appearance of the Lord on the road to Damascus of fighting against God by his frenzied persecution of disciples, Saul cried out, “What shall I do, Lord?” Later, this man who had been fasting and praying in contrition for three days and nights was told to be baptized to wash away his sins (Acts 9, 22). Forgiveness was the burning issue with him.
Cornelius was a devout, God-fearing Gentile (Acts 10). After God convinced the Jews that he was receiving Gentiles by the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on Cornelius and his household, Peter commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. No mention is made of “for the remission of sins,” for that was not the emphatic issue with them so much as their being initiated into life in Christ. In his Great Commission, Jesus had authorized baptism in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. When they baptized in the name of Christ, they were baptizing as Jesus had authorized. It was a matter of obedience to Christ.
In no case was a discourse on baptism delivered to those who were to be immersed. No evidence points to an explanation of all the designs of baptism, nor of reimmersion of the penitents after they learned all the designs. They simply obeyed the expressed will of God — like we should do, whether we understand all its purposes or not.
Many in our congregations think of baptism as a sacrament, a ritual or ceremony through which grace is conferred to the soul. They think it changes the soul from death to life, affecting a new birth in us. They believe in baptismal regeneration – that in baptism divine action transforms and regenerates the soul in a new birth process.
Baptism symbolizes, finalizes, and confirms the change that the convert has undergone rather than accomplishing the change. The conversion process is similar to the process of physical birth. There is an insemination, a conception, a period of gestation, and a parturition or birth. The birth finalizes what has been taking place in the womb rather than being the cause of the life developing process. The parturition is necessary, but it is not the cause of life. Life is not conferred, infused, or poured into the fetus at birth, yet the life-giving process is incomplete without it.
In similar manner, a sinner hears the gospel, develops faith, decides to submit his life to God in Christ, begins a process of reformation, and is baptized. Although baptism is necessary in this procedure, it is not the cause of life. Baptism confirms what has already been developing in the person. The regeneration is a process finalized by baptism instead of being produced by it.
Now, must a person who held a sacramental view of baptism be rebaptized when he learns of his misunderstanding? Such a person has obeyed what was commanded. He was not commanded to understand all the purposes and implications. If God does not demand such an understanding, why should we? And again, who could ever quality for baptism, for it is likely that none of us has understood all. He stands on unholy ground who rejects others who do not have his particular understanding.
The respected pioneers of our Movement did not demand rebaptism of those who had been immersed in other groups. It was later in the nineteenth century that an issue began to be made of it. David Lipscomb, the influential editor of the Gospel Advocate, opposed such rebaptism. In 1884, Austin McGary and Elijah Hansborough started the Firm Foundation especially to promote the rebaptism issue. That publication became very effective, but now I am confident that both the issue and the journal are waning.
“By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was to go” (Heb. 11:8). If he had waited until he saw everything clearly, he would not have left. How can we demand that others see all clearly before they begin obedience to the simplest of commands?
You say, I know all your arguments for I was just like you. Well I say the exact same thing back. I spent decades in the baptist church even as a minister I too know the disdain for actually finding answers on your side.
The question remains…
“IF” is a conditional word with profound meaning…
What “IF” we have not been planted together in the likeness of his death???????????
Lets not Dodge the question now…
What does one have to understand before they can be Baptized?
1. Know Who Jesus is (God’s Son)
2. Know What He did for us (lived sinoless and died for us)
3. Know, when we are baptized, that it is for the forgiveness of our sins.
churchesofchirst,
That is a fantastic discourse concerning baptism, the best that I have read I do beleive thus far. Email that to the boys would you please
Thanks for you insight!
and by the way I am proud of Katie’s defense of her beliefs (and her defense of her proud father).
How can we demand that others see all clearly before they begin obedience to the simplest of commands?
I agree totally…
Baptism is the simplest of commands.
Why do Baptists make it so hard?
Was it asking to much when the bible said to be baptized for the remission of sins?
I guess its just the 20th century Generation..
“Sinners Prayer” for salvation was unheard of even among denominations till the early 1900’s…
Why not just go back to the pattern of Scripture.
Ac 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
JC, I beg to differ. Baptist didn’t make baptism difficult. As a matter of fact Baptists were first called Baptist because they insisted on baptism following repentance. To a Baptist, baptism is as simple as it gets…you acknowledge your sins, ask for God’s forgiveness, confess Christ as Lord and receive baptism by immersion. No difficulties there.
If my salvation is dependent upon the act of baptism (which by the way is an action performed by man)and not totally upon action provided by God, then why do I need God.
Oh but Rick my friend, that is simply not good enough for the legalists when you say:
“To a Baptist, baptism is as simple as it gets…you acknowledge your sins, ask for God’s forgiveness, confess Christ as Lord and receive baptism by immersion. No difficulties there.”
Makes sense to all of us, but to them you have wrong name on your church sign and you must understand why you are being baptized…..I know…..crazy.
JC, since you wrote this, can you please enlighten us as to where in the Bible does it state one must know this in order for it to be a valid baptism?
What does one have to understand before they can be Baptized?
1. Know Who Jesus is (God’s Son)
2. Know What He did for us (lived sinless and died for us)
3. Know, when we are baptized, that it is for the forgiveness of our sins.
…by the way, yes, I am apart of the Churches of Christ but nothing like those legalists. I am however studying church history and Roman Catholicism.
If my salvation is dependent upon the act of baptism (which by the way is an action performed by man)and not totally upon action provided by God, then why do I need God.
Exactly, Rick. It almost takes God out of the picture and places the salvation on our shoulders, which is far from Biblical. It seems that the idea of the GIFT of salvation and grace become muddled when we place human restrictions on who is in and who is out when in reality God did not intend it to be difficult for us to come to Him. He is the one who invited us to COME to Him and find rest, that His yoke is easy and His burden is light. His commands have never been burdensome, it is only humans that have made them so and have put stumbling blocks for men to come to God.
To (JP MANZI) I see you say you are studying Roman Catholicism. I must warn you as a believer that is even more dangerous. I know they don’t condemn others. And they are stronger in numbers than any other Christian. But they are also modern day pagans. Below I listed some examples as well as scripture references:
1) You know that Big hat the pope wears, Thats the same hat pagan leaders wore.
2) In Jerimiah Chapter 7, This church was prophesized. Read it
3) One of the most important commandments (NO GRAVEN IMAGES) look in the Catholic church today. There are more statues and idols than anything.
4) Revelation talks about the great Harlot, riding the beast with Seven heads. that represents the vatican. and the city of rome. (The city of 7 hills)
5) The Bible also says, “Call no man Father” (I rest my case)
6) The Son of Perdition will take on Gods title. What do Catholics call the POPE. (Holy Father)
7)Also Catholics pray to Mary, Where does God tell us to do that?
I incourage you to seek the truth In the Word. Not by a tradition or religion created by Man. do what 2 Tim 2:15 says, “study to show thyself approved…” and you will never go wrong.
I have been away since my last comment on Friday afternoon…I wasn’t surprised that myself and Kathrine were hatefully called “Libs” by a fellow COC’str. I grew up and still worship in a COC and it’s not psuedo Baptist. But, neither do I waist my time condemning them how they worship God. That’s between God and the worshipper. JC- If they follow Christ they’re Christians. The only one that can take that place from them is Christ himself- You my friend do not have that authority. It was not the pharisees who showed compassion to the woman caught in adultry in John 8. You are acting just like a pharisee.
We in the COC use Romans 16:16 to justify our name, doesn’t it say churches of Christ -plural(denominations) dude? Church of God is also bibical, but you most likely think they damned too?
You’ld probably be surprised how similar my worship is to yours, except I sing more than 3 dry songs, and my “preacher” didn’t baptize my son- I did.
I’ve heard all my life that we are modeled for the first century church. That’s fine, but there are holes… First, they had problems I don’t want. Second, We seem only interested in a handfull of churches that Paul wrote to. Third, as you start to realize from Revelation their are more first century churches that we know nothing about. They didn’t use a bible (Matthew-Revelation) for doctrine, but in stead the same scpritures the Jews had used. Under your logic they’re damned too. Lay off of condemning people who have accepted Christ as their lord and savior, just because they don’t worship in a building that has a COC sign in front of it. If there’s any condemning to do God is perfectly capable of handling His own business. Christ makes it clear how the judge will be judged.
Preach it, brother Dennis!
1 Corinthians 12:4-6 says it all. There are many ministries and Christ is in all of them
Dane,
I appreciate your warning concerning the Roman Catholic Church. I am well versed in their theology as I spent years and years as a Catholic.
….JC, looking forward to your responses.
JC - you havent made any good arguments yet. All you said was “if”. Explain how being buried in water pictures Christ in a tomb…seeing it says planted in his likeness. Again, if this is water, other denominations go thru baptism too……so per your view, they are “planted” with Him.
“”so per your view, they are “planted” with Him.”"
Good try Randy
If they aren’t doing it to be planted with him as in planting the old man and rising up washed of their sins, then they aren’t being planted with him…
They are just doing it for show to others…
“So what they try to do is steal joy from other Christians. That doesn’t sound like the ONE TRUE CHURCH to me. They have no right to judge others and start stuff with other Christians. God help these Guys.”
(Dane)
To (JP MANZI) I see you say you are studying Roman Catholicism. I must warn you as a believer that is even more dangerous. I know they don’t condemn others. And they are stronger in numbers than any other Christian. But they are also modern day pagans. (Dane)
Wow
Dane I guess you kinda contradicted yourself here. Which is it “No right to judge others” or “They are a Pagan Religion”…
“If my salvation is dependent upon the act of baptism (which by the way is an action performed by man)and not totally upon action provided by God, then why do I need God.” (Katherine)
GREAT QUESTION!!!
The problems with your statement…
Repentance, (action performed by man)
Belief, (action performed by man)
Confession, (action performed by man)
Salvation (action performed by God)
We are never deserving of salvation, but God has given
us the opportunity to accept it(action)…
Are you also willing to leave out RBC since they to are actions performed by man???
You know in regards to our local coC folks, I can live with the disagreement over doctrinal beliefs and practices, I can tolerate the absurd visits and I can support the right of freedom of expression on televsion. But the real problem and concern that I have is the damaging effect that these guys are having on the unsaved populace of our area. (I know that they think that other Christians outside their tent are unsaved and that the majority of their focus is on tearing down established “unsaved” churches.. but forget that group for a moment).
What do you think the average unchurched, unsaved individual, who happens to catch one of the coC broadcast or who hears the gossip in the community about “did you hear what that Robertson gang said about preacher so and so and his church”, concludes about religion in general and church in particular.
There is no telling how many unchurched, unsaved individuals have rejected God and the things of God because of the vicious attacks on ministers, churches and religious denomination that they have witnessed taking place every week by Robertson, Fields and Oldfield. Why can’t these guys understand that what they need to be doing to win over a lost and dying world is to use their precious paid air time to present the saving gospel of Jesus Christ. If they must teach their doctrinal beleifs on air do they not understand that it would have a greater impact if they simply stuck to teaching the things of God without verbal assaults on people and places?
This desire, no passion to tear down other churches as a way to build up a particular church is just beyond my understanding.
Rick, great last post. They have ZERO desire to reach the lost. All they care about it taking christians from other denominations. Thats it. They are a cancer to the Christian faith. Strong words, but look at thier actions…….or lack there of.
Sure it will have that affect on some. Just as I’m sure it did when Jesus, John the Baptist, Peter, and Paul preached. There is also another side to it. I’ve had many people (churched and unchurched) tell me they are just glad to see someone take a stand for their beliefs. People in the real world see denominations. That all teach extremely different things, but believe they are all “OK” to do it their own way. They think Christians are all Hippocrites because of denominationalism. I’ve seen many come to know the Lord because the controversy got their attention and made them want to know the truth of the matter…
How about an answer to post 69???
look at thier actions…….or lack there of.(JP)
Sure we could all do more, but are you “calling the kettle black”?
(18 cities knocked over 10,000 doors
Each door recieved information on how to be saved and opportunity for study.
Many souls reached)
Definetly not a brag, but lets just get clarification before we make accusations…
I’m curious just how successful JC (or three this blog is about) has been in convincing christians from other faiths to pull up stakes and join his form of christianity. If he’s convinced anyone to change I wonder how long it is before they become unhappy and loose total interest. I grew up in his brand of COC and was told I was happy, but wasn’t. I went through with all five steps he claims are neccessary, but then I was told I could still be damned if i didn’t go to beg forgiveness of every transgression on my death bed. ( A little exaggeration but pretty close)
I am happy now to be a member of the COC that is graceful and grace focused ( he calls me a “lib”). JP you’re right… If a druggie walked into his church, he would not be welcomed even though that’s the person that needs salvation. The Great Commission says to seek and save the lost, I see nothing about seeking and resaving the saved. Meanwhile the lost are becoming more lost, time is running out and their are a few hyper-Cons (love that term) that want nothing but a fight with fellow christians. Its a shame how much good we could accomplish if we learned to work together at seeking and saving the real lost of this world, isn’t it?
I completely agree daddy (aka rick for those that don’t know he’s my dad).
While they are ambushing churches, pointing fingers, and calling names a LOST WORLD is dying and on their way to hell.
Which really leads me to believe that these gentlemen have no real understanding of what grace, love, and mercy are. And if we really want to get blunt… a person’s relationship with God is reflected to the world by the fruits they produce. The three in our community definitely have no positive fruits that I can see… they are hostile, pharasetical, and completely spiritually blind to any view but their own. It sets a poor example to the unchurched people of what Christianity is SUPPOSED to be about. They have made Christianity about themselves and not Christ and that is my biggest “beef” with them.
And I can’t remember who posted this up above but I really liked the thought. It sounds like this branch of the CofC is placing more emphasis on the water in baptism and their own mindset of why they are being baptized than they are on the blood of Christ… which does beg the point, who is really saving them? If it’s their own mindset and understanding then how is it a free gift of grace? And if that is truly what they are doing… relying on their own human minds to bring them salvation then are THEY truly saved? hmmm… interesting thought.
Rick,
While I agree with you whole-heartedly, it is helpful to understand that from their perspective, we are all lost. You, as a part of the Baptist denomination, are just as lost as if you had never heard the Gospel at all. Maybe even moreso, since you are a “false teacher” (as they would say) - so you’ll have even that much more to answer for when “the roll is called up yonder”.
And I think, from your comments here, that you get completely that they believe that you are the one leading people astray, and I’d bet a big amount of change that Norm Fields believes that his little foray into your church last week was just on the same level as what you think about Lottie Moon going to China or Jim Elliot going to Ecuador.
In fact, I’ve seen Norm refer to his work in Danville as “missions” (at least he posted an appeal to his brethren in a “missions” bulletin board - you can see it here: http://forum.preachersfiles.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=740). So that should tell you what he thinks of the spiritual condition of the Danville community.
I was just told over on another discussion board the following by one of Johnny, Norm and James’s hypercon brothers:
“I have no problem saying that according to the Scriptures you are not a Christian and you are in the wrong church.”
And when I provided that person with over a dozen Scripture passages that said specifically that we are saved when we believe in Jesus (and varieties on that passage), I was told:
“Those are great Scriptures! I believe and preach them.
Did you notice not one of those Scriptures says “faith alone/only” OR “grace alone/only”?
Did you notice not one of those Scriptures mentions the Presbyterian church or infant baptism?
Presbyterian Nathan (this guy’s little pet name for me) is trying to lay claim to something that’s not his.
Keep trying!!”
So, as far as this guy is concerned, I’m as lost as a Bedouin in the Sahara who never heard the Gospel.
Not much chance that they are going to want to team up with us for anything - especially not in reaching the lost.
Presbyterian Nathan
Nathan, Rick, and Katie;
Me and my COC brothers will team up with you because we want Christ glorified!
Thanks Presbyterian Nathan
You are so right. And the truly eteranally sad part is that by not teaming up with fellow Christians they are literally sending hundreds to hell because these lost folks are turned off by their tactical judgemental attitude towards everyone.
just call me Baptist Rick..hehe
Thanks Dennis! I appreciate the faith and outreach of the true Church of Christ brothers and sisters. I’ll team up with you anytime!
I appreciate it, Dennis. That is the best thing that has come out of this blog for me - an understanding that there are lots and lots of folks in churches of Christ whose doctrine and methods are nothing like the doctrine and methods of the men who host the TV shows in our area.
Nathan
One thing I strongly advise is that people study what these guys believe prior to calling them. Most do not have a clue what they believe and why - trust me these men know most denominational doctrines better than the people who attend them. They study their doctrines and know each weakness and know how to answer each question before you even ask. They have heard every question around – Rick, Katie , I once worked close with these men, even lined up the debate with Jason and Jeff black. I ask Johnny and James both how they knew the bible so well and they told me they picked topics , doctrines and things and treated them like a filing system and in that filing system they have every question you have and already have an answer. They are never caught off guard. I was able to stop the largest Baptist church pastor around by using these methods and the reason being is this pastor didn’t know the cofC doctrine and he finally stopped emailing me. I done this with another preacher in NC too….he too could not answer me, so please be well prepared. I left these men thank God !!! I also told the men I once condemned I was sorry and ask that they forgive my actions. Just as you stated, these men are more interested in debate than saving the lost from hell. If you want to understand how to defend yourself against their attacks, visit sites like Al Maxey, Carl Ketcherside, Cecil Hook….you can Google them to find their url. These men are church of Christ preachers and will provide you with information Johnny and crew will not. You can even go to Freedoms rings site, which is Cecil Hook and he will send you some books for free that will help with everything Johnny can throw your way. Please Google Al Maxey too….and go to his site and he has the positions of the legalist like Johnny and crew and will provide answered to their questions. He actually emailed Johnny and Norm on behalf once, but that didn’t amount to much but them running in circles
Thanks Randy,
I will google those three preachers and gain further information and also continue to gather information from the link Nathan gave out further up on this post.
I agree that the best way to debate is to learn more about their doctrine, in particulare Norm and Johnny since it appears that their doctrine doesn’t match up with the rest of the CofCers out there.
There are several interesting things worth pointing out:
1. Everyone is upset about the disrespect and disdain Norm supposedly showed by not participating in worship he doesn’t agree with but no one seems too bothered about the fact he was threatened with physical violence for asking questions.
2. Does anyone else see the irony in how everyone is talking about how grace is enough to cover our doctrinal differences but no one is bothered by Dane’s comments about Catholics? They believe in Jesus as well. Isn’t grace enough to cover all of their errors as well? Why hasn’t anyone called him out?
3. How divisive would it be for someone who was “unchurched” to find this website and see people bickering over doctrine? Wouldn’t it turn people away? Doesn’t this site do the same thing that Norm, Johnny & James do, or is it different in some way? I guess it is different since you believe THEY are wrong.
4. Just a general question - are there no false teachers or teachings worth addressing? As Christians, do we let everything go and let grace sort it out? If a person claims to be a Christian must we accept them and their teachings? I’m just curious as to where many of the people posting about this stand.
Thanks,
Christian Corey
Randy, you brought back some memories. I wrote several weeks ago on this blog about being “trained” CoC doctrine when I was a teenager in a Hyper-con COC ( by the way JC, that church died 10 years ago and an evangelical church meets there now). I did spend more time learning about Baptist’s, Methodist’s, Presby’s, even Disciple of Christ’s doctrine than my own traditions. I also remember “Grace” and “Holy Spirit” as being referred to as fanatical words.
Corey..
I’ll answer your questions as best I can.
1. I agree that Norm should have never been threatened. In fact my dad pointed out how the church members angry reaction to Norm was “unfortunate”. Appropriate? Absolutely not, no one has condoned that kind of anger or “threat”.
2. When I think of the term “Christian”- I do include Catholics in that broad term. Correct, they believe in Jesus Christ as God’s Son, believe in His death and ressurection and so they are essentially Christians with a little more ritual and tradition than protestants (well most protestants). I have some doctrinal differences and I personally wouldn’t feel entirely comfortable in the catholic church simply because of some of those differences but in no way would claim them to be non-Christian because of that. They are entitled to their style of worship just as I am too mine. If they are contradicting scripture (or if any of us for that matter contradict scripture in our worship) that is when it becomes a “problem”.
3. I actually full-heartedly agree with you on this point. It won’t stop me from openly communicating though because I feel there’s a big difference between me civally corresponding and discussing and what these gentlemen like to do and that is ambush a group and then twist,mingle, and misquote them on their programs in a means of bashing particular persons and/or churches. If I have in anyway “bashed” Norm, I apologize and you are correct, that would be inappropriate. However discussing where the difference are and our grievances with their approach is not “wrong”.
4. You are right, just because a person claims to be a Christian doesn’t make them one. But I would also say that just because a person claims that their doctrine of Christianity is the ONLY doctrine, doesn’t it make so.
Corey,
I agree with you on the fact that Christ must be appalled by all of the infighting among what I consider the be fellow christians. In the end who’s the judge? How will we be judged? I for one do believe I’ll be judged favorablly not by standing up for mine or any other denomination but because I have claimed the gift of God’s grace through the blood of Christ. I also believe by the zeal shown on this blog that all of these folks will claim the same reward as me. Now to the issue at hand, who’s looking after the real lost of this world?
Dennis… good question.
As important as I do believe it is to defend our beliefs (and in my case, to defend my family also)… the greatest question is who is going to reach the lost of the world with the message of Christ’s grace, of love and mercy.
I lead a local youth group as their youth “director” and I challenge my young people weekly with that call (or commission if you will). May we all live a life that is glorifying the Lord and furthering the message of salvation through the blood of Jesus Christ.
Corey,
If Johnny, Norm and James agree to discontinue their programs, I’d be happy to discontinue this blog. It takes up too much of my time as it is. But, as I’ve said here multiple times, I started this blog because I felt like the Christian community in the Star 39 viewing area was being bullied by these men, and had no other place to talk about it (and their teachings) except their programs.
If this blog is helping someone from within a hypercon CofC think outside the box and consider that the “churches of Christ” are really not so different than other Christian fellowships, then I would think the blog has served a noble purpose.
I try to maintain a level of civility here so that it won’t be a place of “bickering over doctrine”. Admittedly, I personally have not always been civil, and I have apologized for that, but I am (after all) human, and subject to my emotions. I have worked hard to keep those “bickerers” off the blog, and allow those (such as yourself and others who identify with Johnny and company) who are interested in good discourse to say what is on their minds and hearts.
Nathan
Katie,
Thanks for your responses. Let me go a little further:
Why would the Catholic traditions and teachings make you uncomfortable? If everything is okay with God it should be okay with us shouldn’t it?
What would you consider contradicting scripture? Praying to someone other than God (such as Mary - in direct contradiction of Jesus’ teachings)? Calling a man “Holy Father” (in direct contradiction of Jesus’ teaching)? What is the standard by which these things are judged contradictions? Our feelings or God’s word?
Again, you said that not everyone who claims to be a Christian is and you said that no person can claim to have the only doctrine to follow. So what do we follow? How can we know what is true and what is false unless we agree upon a standard?
Lastly, if openly and honestly discussing these matters here is not bashing (and I don’t believe it is), then how is Norm walking up to a man and asking him questions about why he believes what he believes bashing or “ambushing”? Aren’t we told to always have an answer for the faith that is within us?
Corey
I will have to really think on the questions regarding the Catholic beliefs so I won’t answer those right now.
But first I will say that you are right about the “ambushing”. If Norm Fields did as he claims and just went to churches and observed and then asked simple questions that would be one thing and would not warrant anyone to feel angry, certainly not angry enough to threaten. But instead what Mr. Fields did and one of his cohorts have done in the past is they persist beyond the level of just asking questions. It is as if their mission is not to ask and answer questions but to publicly embarass and/or ridicule all those who are present. That is when it becomes ambushing on his part.
But onto another point that we are discussing. I actually did not say that no person could claim to have “the” doctrine I said that just because someone claims their doctrine is THE doctrine doesn’t it make so. And I’ll do my best to explain myself by what I meant. What I mean, in direct reference to the Fields/Robertson crew is that they pull out scripture that I assume they feel builds their argument for why they are the “only” Christians. However, the fact that their scriptures are taken out of context, pulled together in bits and pieces does not provide sound doctrine in my opinion. That would be my opinion on how one’s doctrine may not be “the” truth, especially if the doctrine itself doesn’t appear to match up with the rest of scripture. Scripture is not wrong… man-made doctrine is the problem.
I don’t know if that made sense or answered any questions but I’ll return to the thoughts on Catholicism later.
Katie, I do think we are kindred spirits and would be really good friends
Everything you have said and I also have been involved and have a heart for youth ministry.
I also will join with Dennis, and all of you-and since he said his CoC brothers are joining-I will say that your brothers AND sisters are with you!!
That is my main beef with those in any church who believe they are the ONLY ones who are going to make it-and study more on other people’s doctrines to prove them wrong than they actually study the Bible and the grace and love of God they have chosen to look over and ignore-which is the MAIN premise and Good News of the Bible and embodies who Jesus is. I often wonder if they are actually reading the same Bible as I am, because nowhere in there do I find a command to debate everyone to prove them wrong and bring them over to their side-over showing them the simple way God has provided to enter into a relationship with Him. The only command I see is to bring people to Jesus, and there are plenty of people in this world who do not know of Him at all. The kind of “Christianity” they believe they are taking part in by attacking everyone else is not the kind of Christianity the world wants to be part of or needs. We live in a very post-Christian society, and we have to go to where the people are-just like Jesus did, not judge them-but love them the way He has called us to. The way to Jesus is through Him and Him ONLY, not through any kind of man-made institution we label “church”. The church is made up of His body of believers-HE is the one who saves, we should just be spreading the message of His love and let God take care of the rest.
Corey,
I think that the main problem is that these men do not go into other churches or even use the format of their program to learn anything. They already believe they are right, they believe everyone else is wrong-and their main goal seems to be to prove that while closing their ears and minds to what anyone else has to say-EVEN when it is the TRUTH. That is what I have encountered. It is different if you are going somewhere or asking someone a question to really understand why they believe what they believe-but when you go in with the attitude that you know they are wrong, and have studied enough to pull out every stop to PROVE them wrong-then that is unacceptable and should not happen. That has never been what God has called us to-He called us to take His message to the world-to seek the lost and share the love, grace, mercy, and joy found in Him. They hardly even mention Jesus-and why? Because He is simply not the focus for them-their own man-made doctrines have taken over the message of Jesus and have watered down the power of the cross and the blood of Jesus that FREELY gives us the gift of salvation. When you have to work for something-it no longer becomes a GIFT.
Dennis, I Amen this again:
Its a shame how much good we could accomplish if we learned to work together at seeking and saving the real lost of this world, isn’t it?
It would be absolutely AMAZING what we could accomplish if we really would answer Jesus’ plea and prayer for unity, and put down our swords. That would be fulfilling the great commission!!
Katie,
I am curious how Norm could have gone about what he did without ambushing. Should he have sent a letter ahead of time stating that he would be coming to ask questions? The last time he went to a Baptist church he accepted an offer to meet privately in the “pastor’s” study. An offer that was quickly rescinded. Was Norm overly aggressive? Did he berate the man publicly? I don’t know because I wasn’t there, but if he didn’t I can’t see what he did as “ambushing” anyone.
I am also curious as to what passages you feel have been taken out of context, and I mean that sincerely. As I hold to the same beliefs as Mr. Fields I would like to know what you find to be incorrect, scripturally, so that I can examine it for myself.
If you find man-made doctrines to be a problem, how do you feel about the man-made doctrines of your church? Are certain man-made doctrines acceptable and others incorrect? It is those doctrines of men that compelled me to leave the Baptist church and become a member of Christ’s church. Choirs, solos, instruments of music, women in leadership roles, a single “pastor” in place of the scriptural pastors…the list goes on of man-made additions to the church that caused me to wonder where the authority for such came.
I look forward to your comments on Catholicism and I appreciate your honest answers and kind demeanor.
Corey
Katie, I meant to say in that first comment that everything you have said resonates with me and could have been easily written from my heart. Amazing how that works among those who find their hope in Jesus!
Here are some links: These will arm you with the tools you need. These men all are from the church of Christ, but nothing like Johnny, and they dont teach as the men here.
http://www.zianet.com/maxey/Reflect2.htm
http://rouses.net/blog/
http://www.unity-in-diversity.org/
http://www.freedomsring.org/
http://www.freedominchrist.net/
Corey,
I know you’re talking to Katie, but I’d like to throw in my two cents. The difference is that Norm is the host of one of three TV programs that are not known for keeping conversations with other preachers confidential. They aren’t known for having “friendly chats” with preachers in other churches. They are known for sneaking in cameras and microphones and secretly recording their encounters with preachers in churches other than their own. And THEN taking those videos and broadcasting them for the Star 39 viewing audience to see and laugh about.
This is why people will retract offers to meet with them when they realize who they are. Who wants to appear on TV from the angle of a hidden camera, or have their secretly recorded words broadcast over the community?
Nathan
Corey, are you in line with the belief that the “Church of Christ” is the one and only church? I am just curious.
Also, many of the things you mentioned: Choirs, solos, instruments of music, women in leadership role…are in some Churches of Christ (which I do not believe any of those are unscriptural)-would you fellowship with those who do have that in the same tradition of the Church of Christ? Why do you think those are wrong-simply because they are not authorized or for another reason?
I wish I had more time to really dive into some of your questions and I hope you don’t take my inability right not to answer has not wanting to answer. I just am quite busy this afternoon with two screaming toddlers who are bound and determined to bring down the house. But that’s beside the point.
I want to touch quickly though on one question you asked me directly. “how do you feel about the man-made doctrines of your church?” I would appreciate just a little explanation as to what man-made doctrine you are referring to.
But I will say now that I agree there are many “traditions” within any given group of worshippers that are man-made. However my core beliefs are not man-made but