“Church of Christ Doctrine”

In my daily internet sifting, I came upon this recent blog entry from a veteran Church of Christ pastor.  While he and I might disagree on several things, I am very glad that he recognizes the CofC inconsistencies that we discuss on this blog all of the time. 

The article reads: 

In May of this year I will celebrate 51 years of ministry among churches of Christ. In the first forty years of my ministry, when someone asked me if I taught “Church of Christ doctrine,” my stock reply was, “I do not teach ‘Church of Christ doctrine.’ I teach only the Bible.” I was convinced that my statement and practice was true.

However, as the years passed, I realized that there was a “Church of Christ doctrine” and it was not Bible! There was the doctrine taught by some that if you had a preacher working with an established congregation, doing all of the preaching each Sunday, that you were in fatal error. There was the doctrine taught by others that if you used more than one cup in serving the fruit of the vine in the Lord’s supper, you were hell bound. There was the doctrine preached and debated by others that if you had Sunday school you were practicing the devil’s doctrine. I could go on, but this is sufficient to prove my point that there is “Church of Christ doctrine” and it isn’t anymore biblical than the doctrines taught by others which denominate one person from another.

During those first forty or so years I justified myself by believing those brethren were preaching non-biblical doctrines, but I was preaching nothing but the Bible. Since I was preaching nothing but the Bible, I was not guilty of following man made teachings nor guilty of following traditions. One can blind himself by his own error.

In the late sixties I was working with the Ellendale congregation on Highway 70 in what is now Bartlett, TN. We had a highway sign that could contain a four line message on both sides. Above that area was the name of our congregation, “Ellendale Church of Christ.” One day I put up the sign, “We are also the church of God.” That sign didn’t last long. Someone removed it that night and neatly stacked the letters in front of the sign on both sides. I never did know who. However, it would not surprise me if some well meaning brother was not the culprit.

You see, one “Church of Christ doctrine” is that the only name we can be identified by in our advertisements, highway signs, VBS signs, and etc., is “Church of Christ.” In fact, if one will go back and look at some of the propositions in our debates with others, they will see that brethren defended the name “Church of Christ” as being “scriptural in name.” Notice it is singular!

Yet, the name “Church of Christ” is never used in the Bible to describe a single congregation. Yes, Paul did refer to all congregations as the “churches of Christ” in Romans 16:16, but he nor any other inspired writer ever used the singular expression. Yes, I know the argument which states, “If there were ‘churches of Christ’ in the plural, then a single congregation would have been ‘the church of Christ.’” However, since the Bible is silent in referring to a single congregation as “the church of Christ,” why would that silence not eliminate that designation from being used as the primary designation today? Our signs are actually our “Church of Christ doctrine” rather than specific Bible teaching!

Any teaching which is more important than the unity of the body of Jesus and which promotes division, is nothing less than a “Church of Christ doctrine” rather than the good news of Jesus Christ. It is a tradition of man that is loved and preferred more than a loving relationship with one another. Too often what we have become comfortable with becomes our doctrine rather than “a thus saith the Lord.”

Question: When our comfort zones become our standard of what must be, what makes us any different from those who are comfortable with their traditions which we condemn? Comfort zones are seldom a “thus saith the Lord” much less “good news.”

Allow me to give just one example of comfort zone religion. In some black churches of Christ, when a person, male or female responds to the invitation, that person is given the opportunity to express why they responded. In most white churches, the person is obligated to whisper their purpose in a preacher or elder’s ear. He then announces why the person came. Where is that procedure demanded in the Bible? We will allow that same person, when they respond to be immersed, to audibly announce that they believe Jesus is the Son of God. What is the difference between a woman announcing that she believes Jesus is the Son of God and one asking the congregation for prayers due to her sin of gossip? In both she is speaking. If she doesn’t sin by doing one, she doesn’t sin by doing the other. This is just another one of our inconsistencies built on our tradition and based solely upon our comfort zones as our authority.

So much of what we do is based upon Protestant or Catholic tradition brought into the Restoration movement by early pioneer preachers. We blind ourselves to this fact by continuing to dogmatically proclaim that we do not preach “Church of Christ doctrine, we only preach the Bible.”

This article was found here

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463 thoughts on ““Church of Christ Doctrine”

  1. I think we need to move on and get over all of this blog splatter. Okay – I don’t know Nathan and honestly don’t care if he is Robert Fleming. He has a blog set up that can be commented on from both sides. It’s beneficial regardless of who Nathan is. I looked at the copycat blog its obvious that much of the comments are fake. He even faked one from me the other day, but I did send one today with my yahoo and blog just to see if he will post it. Anyway, lets welcome Nathan back on board and lets ignore the copycat blog seeing he is just out to sling mud. Randy

  2. I agree with alot of what you have said. There are many scriptural names for the one true church, but you will not see them using them. They are more concerned about attendance, then scriptural matters like these. Actually if you look any further besides the “Sunday School Classes” which are unscriptual, you will see that the true church apparently met on our Saturday night according to Jewish Reckoning. Look at Acts 20:7-and following verses in the Living Bible and Good New for Modern Man. That’s why many churches will not serve the Supper after sunset Sunday, because it would really be the 2nd day of the week. Please visit…………..

    XXXXXXXXX.blogspot.com

    Learn about the truth that you have been looking for all of your life……..Blessings

    [Brother Paul's blog URL has been edited until he permits comments on his blog. I won't advertise propaganda - but will advertise dialogue. Nathan]

  3. There are a lot of interesting comments being made about the Church of Christ. The fact remains that the Bible is true because it’s doctrine must be properly understood so that one does not go away with the wrong interpretation. The Bible interprets itself, we don’t. The Bible dictates to us, we do not dictate to it. The Bible is very clear about the “ONE Church”. That will not change for anyone. Jesus said that he was going to build His church(Matt. 16:18). And that one church is the one you can read about in the Bible. We in the Church of Christ can and will defend the fact that there is but ONE Church. The New Testament scriptures are clear on this subject, but man with his foolish ideas think that he/she can create another church with another doctrine and think God will accept it. NO, God forbid. God had one family in the Old Testament, the Jews. Today God has only one family in light of the New Testament scriptures, that is CHRISTIANS. The word of God only produces after its own kind(Christians). When one Hears, Believe, Repent, Confesses, and be baptised for the remission of their sins knowing that Christ is head of ONE Church, His Church, the Church of Christ, then that individual becomes a Christian and is added to God’s family{Acts 2:38-47). All other religous organizations are unscriptual and still unsaved. God’s plan is that all would come into the one body(church) before it’s everlastingly too late. Come to Jesus, here Him and obey Him.

  4. Why do the COC only concentrate on the new testement? You are a Christian if you believe the whole bible and not just part of the bible. You can’t pick and choose what pertains to you..the whole Bible was written for us to follow. So if you don’t live your life off the Word of God are you really a Christian??

  5. posted before I was ready, sorry. Anyway, your answer to that question will begin to take you down the path of reasoning to see that Christians are members of the New Testament, not the Old Testament. So, there is a reason why Christians should focus on the new. This does not mean ignore the old, but Christians are certainly not bound by it.

  6. No I haven’t sacrificed in goats…That is why Jesus came to earth to die for our sins, so that is no longer necessary…I learned that by reading the old and the new testament

  7. I the believe the whole bible is the word of God. I don’t think God would have given us both the Old Testament and the New Testament if it all wasn’t important. There is alot to be learned and things we need to know from the Old testament as well as the New Testament. The disciples even looked back to their fathers on how to approach certain matters such as the laws and faith. If they did this why shouldn’t we. The whole bible is Gods word and we should definitely take it as that. Just because a certain part doesn’t meet someones agenda it shouldn’t be disregarded or overlooked and probably is something that person needs to know.

  8. I agree with Latsha that both Old and New Testament has equally footing in our lives as Christians. The “Great Commandment” given by Jesus in the New Testament has roots in the Ten Commandments of the Old Testament, the redemptive act of Jesus recorded in the New Testament has greater significance when the redemptive acts of the blood sacrifice of the Old Testament is known and undertood, the miracles of Jesus in the New Testament are given greater validity when compared to the miracles in the Old Testament, the Grace and Judgement of God demonstrated in the Old Testament gives clarity to the Grace and judgment of God proclaimed in the New Testament… and the list goes on.

  9. ps23lh
    1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

    Victor
    It does not matter what a preacher or anyone says about miracles, what matters is what God says.

    1Co 13:8 ¶ Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
    9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
    10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

    Rick
    you still have not found the Baptist Church in the old or the new testament.

  10. Ac 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

    And the nondiciples were called baptist first in London England, 1607 years to late.

    Ga 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

  11. T.D. you haven’t found the denominational churches of Christ by name in the Bible either, but what you and I have found in the Scriptures is the universal Church of Christ made up of all born again believers as found among local bodies of believers known as Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterians, Church of CHrist, etc

  12. Matthew 12:25Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand.

    Does anyone have any idea how much danger we are all in?

  13. Ga 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed

    – I love how this verse is always jerked from its context – the verse was addressing people who desired to be saved by their works – its either Christ or its nothing. You use Gospel as if it means the entire bible as you understand it. The word gospel ( good news ) here refers to Christ and what he done…how we have can have faith in him and should have faith in our works and that includes baptism…

  14. T.D. you haven’t found the denominational churches of Christ by name in the Bible either, but what you and I have found in the Scriptures is the universal Church of Christ made up of all born again believers as found among local bodies of believers known as Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterians, Church of CHrist, etc

    This is so true. We mention in church all the time, “This body of Christ.”. But when I was in the c of c, I really couldn’t see past that “we are the one true church” thing to realize the fact that there were Christians meeting in their body of Christ every Sunday, just as we were doing. I so wish my heritage would stop limiting Christianity as they do. Belittling others to build yourself up does much to destroy the Christian unity that Christ wanted us to have.

  15. While I would not condemn anyone for believing as Gail does, I must say that the Bible teaches that Jesus established “One” church on the day of Pentecost.
    (Matthew 16:18 / Ephesians 4:4-6) Note that God said
    “My Church (singular), One Faith (just one doctrine,” and not the several represented by all the different dominations which teach various doctrines.
    God bless you all.

  16. What is being touted locally as the “Church of Christ” cannot be found in the Bible.

    The “Church of Christ” that is represented by Robertson, Oldfield and Fields are a gang of ecclesiastical bullies. They swiped the “Church of Christ” moniker and then dare anyone and everyone to find where their own churches are named in the Bible.

    And that’s all that Robertson, Oldfield, Fields, Mitch/”faithful” and the rest of them have.

    I just came back from a long journey. At many times during which I met real followers of Christ who put the local “Church of Christ” cult to shame.

    I wonder if Johnny Robertson is ready to declare that the Amish are not really Christians and are going to Hell.

  17. Rick:
    Why do you say “born again believers” as if you can be a born again non believer?
    Also the baptist do not teach that one must be born of water and of the Spirit to enter the kingdom of God. Therefore cannot be a part of the Body of Christ which is the Church of Christ. Eph.1:22-23
    Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    Gail: ditto

  18. Chris:
    You are speaking against the Holy Spirit when you say “Church of Christ” cannot be found in the bible,I would advise you to read Matt. 16:18, Acts 20:28,Rom.16:16 1Cor.1:2; 10:32; 11:22; 15:9 2Cor. 1:1 Gal.1:13, Col.4:16, 1Thess.1:1, 2Thess 1:1, 1Tim.3:15, All referring to “Church of Christ”. To say otherwise is Blasphemy.

  19. T.D.,
    The “Church of Christ” that is being espoused by Robertson, Oldfield and Fields is not the church of Christ that is spoken of in the Bible.

    If it is, then anyone, no matter how screwed-up their beliefs, can call themselves “Church of Christ” and be considered justified on the merit of their name alone.

    And that you would claim that I’m speaking against the Holy Spirit when I point out as much indicates to me that you are not someone to take seriously at all.

  20. I have it from a very good source that The Danville Public Schools are teaching your children that they were born sinners and that they inherited Adams sin.
    If a child is taught this at an early age along with all the other hypocritical garbage being espoused in the so called “christian arena” such as “once saved always saved” “unconditional election” etc. Then why are we so shocked when something like the V.T. or columbine shootings take place. When you teach a child that he/she was born a sinner, what do you expect them to do?
    Ps 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
    This verse says “in sin” not “with sin”. It is true we were born in a sinful world but we were not born sinners.
    Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
    Wake up Danville, Take a look at G.W.H.S. They have bars around the whole perimeter of the school, more security cameras than fort knox,police guards walking the hallways, with a security station right as you walk in the front door,and they teach your kids that God created them as sinners. BLASPHEMY
    Zec 12:1 ¶ The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

  21. Chris: I wouldn’t advise you to take anyone to serious unless they were telling you the truth.

    Mt 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
    17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
    18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
    19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
    20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

  22. Gail:
    The denominational CoC falls under the same name as do all other denominational churches.

    1Jo 2:18 ¶ Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

  23. “I have it from a very good source that The Danville Public Schools are teaching your children that they were born sinners and that they inherited Adams sin.”

    – First off, I doubt the children are being taught anything like this in public school. I am pretty sure, like most public schools in the country; they are not required to attend courses that teach specific Christian scriptures as truth. If they are, it is against the law.

    “If a child is taught this at an early age along with all the other hypocritical garbage being espoused in the so called “Christian arena” such as “once saved always saved” “unconditional election” etc. Then why are we so shocked when something like the V.T. or columbine shootings take place.”

    – Really? You really think heartless killings in High schools should be blamed on scriptural interpretation issues? That is outlandish. Maybe kids starting murdering because they belonged to churches that banned IM, forced them to have weekly communion, or pressured them to be baptized as teenagers…….

    Of course not. This is an outlandish statement that I hope you will contract.

    Using your disagreements with other denominations in this light is pretty low.

    I can see it now. Kids that are lost, sitting around on drugs, have parents that are abusive or not involved, and have no belief in God……The thing that sends them over the edge?

    Too many church services teaching unconditional election??

    Um, probably not.

  24. On July 23, 2008 at 10:29 am T.D. Said:
    Gail:
    The denominational CoC falls under the same name as do all other denominational churches.

    1Jo 2:18 ¶ Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

    TD, I’m not sure what you are trying to tell me here since you only quoted scripture without explaining what point you were trying to make. Are you saying that the church I go to is the anti-christ? You will have to explain this because it sounds a little crazy on the face of it.

  25. I have a plea for my heritage. Please stop belittling other Christians. And start being honest. By honest, I mean admitting that you are doing the best you can by intrepreting the Word as best you can just as all sincere Christians do. And stop being dishonest about your history. You can’t have the truth without being honest.

  26. When your toddler picks up things and claims they are MINE and don’t share with others or intentionally hits, kicks, or bites another, certainly a parent would not tell there child to do this. All people are sinful. Jesus was the only person who ever lived that was without sin.

  27. hey all you experts on people being born sinless.
    at what mystical time does a child, adolecent, adult
    become a sinner? is it when they become self aware,
    or when they have perfect understanding of the law?
    i mean without the law there is no sin right? you know
    missing the mark.
    you dont even have to teach a beautiful two year old cherub to lie. if they reason its in their best interest
    to they will. “thats not sin thats just human nature”……………exactly.
    lee

  28. When we were a child we were happy with the toy we had until we saw another kid with a different toy then we had to have that one. As adults we are still the same way for example, we are happy with the car we have until we see someone with a car that has something our car doesn’t then all of a sudden we’ve got to have the other car. We still have the same sinful nature we were born with. Which there is nothing wrong with having nice things, but sometimes because we are human we can be selfish and greedy when it comes to certain things. Sometimes it is a battle we have to struggle from within ourselves with, whatever it may be with in one way or another, and Jesus is the only One who can save us from these sins.

  29. On July 23, 2008 at 10:29 am T.D. Said:
    Gail:
    The denominational CoC falls under the same name as do all other denominational churches.

    1Jo 2:18 ¶ Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

    – T.D. I think you are really getting your wires crossed here. Please go back and gather the context of the passage above before trying to make it apply to others. And, if you are trying to say Gail is anti-Christ, please do explain ! I have read many of Gails comments and she is not at all against Christ – matter of fact, she is for Christ. What you most likey mean is that you hold to a certain understanding of scripture and you conclude that you are 100% right with your views and anyone who disagrees is “anti-Christ”. Again, please do explain!

  30. On July 23, 2008 at 8:27 am T.D. Said:
    “Rick:
    Also the baptist do not teach that one must be born of water and of the Spirit to enter the kingdom of God. Therefore cannot be a part of the Body of Christ which is the Church of Christ.”

    Just for fun (and to rattle T.D’s cage)…All of the Baptists that I know were born of water when their mothers gave them birth and were born of the Spirit when they confessed Christ as Savior.

  31. Rick:

    In the words of the great theologian, Arthur Fonzarelli…

    EXACTAMUNDO!

  32. EXACTAMUNDO :) boy, thats going way back :)

    I think the context is speaking of being born of woman when Jesus said water, seeing he ask Jesus how could he enter again into the womb… besides, how could water mean baptized into Christ, seeing Christ had not even died yet.

  33. DMH:
    I dont doubt, I know for a fact the kids are being taught that in Danville Public Schools.
    I believe it is against the law to force anything on anyone just like I cant force you to read your bible and maybe it is the pressure of their peers that cause them to do drugs and commit fornication etc. Wheather you feel pressured to do drugs or obey the gospel, the final decision is yours.

    1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

  34. Gail
    I am not belittling other christians as you see it, If one is not following The word of God they are not Christians.
    Mt 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

  35. T.D.,

    What you really mean was: “If one is not following The Word of God according to the way I interpret it, they are not Christians”.

    Luckily for you, it is not up to you or your friends who God saves and who is a Christian. Luckily for us, there are going to be a heck of a lot more people in heaven than you realize or seem to want, and I rejoice in that!! You should, too-but it seems you want to make the way of Christ narrower than He ever intended.

    You ARE belittling your brothers and sisters in Christ, and it is time you guys woke up and realized that-because whether you realize it or not, God is holding you (and all of us) accountable for our actions and behavior. Even if you don’t see them as Christians, God has still called you to love them and treat them with respect-so either way, belittling or tearing down people made in the image of God-whether you agree with them or not-is NOT God’s will.

    For if you do not have love…well read 1 Corinthians 13 to find out what you are.

  36. Rick:
    Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
    4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
    5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
    6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    Rick, being born again is obeying the gospel,1:hearing the word of God Rom.10:17 2:believeing what it says about Jesus and his kingdom Jn. 8:24 3:repenting of your sins Lk.13:3 4:confessing that you believe that Jesus is the son of God and that he raised him from the dead Mt.10:32,33 and 5:being baptised for the remission of your sins Acts 2:38; 22:16, 1Pet.3:21

    Seems like you and Nicodemus have a lot in common, He confused this as entering his mothers womb a second time also.

  37. Katherine:
    The bible was interpreted many years before I came along,I just read it and believe it.
    Is it going to be a lot more people in heaven than Jesus realized?

    Mt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
    14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

  38. Water can also be a symbol of the Holy Spirit. In this verse, John 3:5 “Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” the word ‘and’ (kai) can also be translated as “even”.
    which would make the verse read, Except a man be born of water even of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”

    When Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus there was no such thing as Christian baptism, as whatdoesthebiblesay points out in his comment above. There was no way that Nicodemus could be baptized in order to be born again at that time since Christ had not died and Christian baptism had not yet been instituted.

  39. 1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

    2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

    Faith is in Christ Jesus.

    1Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

    Hope is in Jesus Christ

    Ro 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    Love is in Christ Jesus.

    Matter of fact all spiritual blessings are in Christ.

    Eph 1:3 ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

    Two scriptures tell us how to get into Christ:

    Ro 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

    Ga 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

  40. Rick:

    Mt 3:1 ¶ In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
    2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
    3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
    4 And the same John had his raiment of camel’s hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.
    5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
    6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

  41. Rick said;

    Just for fun (and to rattle T.D’s cage)…All of the Baptists that I know were born of water when their mothers gave them birth and were born of the Spirit when they confessed Christ as Savior.
    again Rick said;

    Water can also be a symbol of the Holy Spirit. In this verse, John 3:5 “Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” the word ‘and’ (kai) can also be translated as “even”.
    which would make the verse read, Except a man be born of water even of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”

    therfore I ask the question:Rick:
    are you saying that the water from your mothers womb is the Holy Spirit?

  42. T.D.,

    Of course there will not be a lot more people in heaven than Jesus realized!!! What a ludicrous question!!

    I said there will be a lot more people in heaven than YOU realize because it seems you have placed yourself on the throne of condemnation to decide who is or is not a Christian based on YOUR beliefs and YOUR concept of the church.

    It really seems as if you guys do not WANT people to get into heaven but those found in your sect, and for the life of me, I just cannot understand why someone who claims to be following God would not want that.

  43. 1. Ro 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
    Ga 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ

    – What about those who were baptized into/unto Moses ? The word baptism does NOT always mean water. The verses above may very well be dry verses just as the one where they were said to be baptized unto ( eis ) into Moses. The water didnt touch them, it parted and they walked through and they were one with moses…they were baptized into Moses…

  44. Katherine:
    God wants all of us to be with him in heaven and I to would love for that to happen.

    ¶ The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    although I know by His own words this will not happen.

    Mt 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

  45. therfore I ask the question:Rick:
    are you saying that the water from your mothers womb is the Holy Spirit?

    – T.D. are you saying that he knew what Jesus meant when he said water – meaning Christain baptism for the remission of sins ? Come on now, Jesus had not even died yet, so how could that be understood THEN that it was baptism Jesus was referring to?? You are taking Church of Christ denominational doctrine that you have heard and you are closed minded to the truth. Put yourself in his shoes, not knowing Christ was gonna die and be raised from the dead, how could you have understood WATER as baptism for the remission of sins where one contacts Jesus blood ?? Come on TD, you surely see the folly in this.

  46. On July 24, 2008 at 1:56 pm whatdoesthebiblesay Said:
    T.D. would you have faith in Christ to save you if you couldnt find some water ?

    wdtbs
    Would you have faith in Christ to save you if you did not repent?

  47. TD..check my post again. I didn’t say that water always symbolized the Holy Spirit in the Scriptures but that it can also be a symbol of the Holy Spirit in Scripture. Besides you know full well that I was not suggesting that the water of the mother’s womb was represenative of the Holy Spirit (and neither does John 3 imply that).

  48. Rick:
    Ge 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

  49. Rick:
    Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

  50. wdtbs
    Would you have faith in Christ to save you if you did not repent

    – Do I search for repentance in a lake? Do I have repentance in some pool in a church building? Or am I able to repent anywhere – anytime??

  51. T.D., I’m sorry but I don’t know what point you are trying to make with that verse (Gen. 1:2) in reference to what we are posting about.

  52. Rick:
    Is that like being baptised as an outward showing for an inward faith, which is nowhere found in the scriptures.

  53. WDTBS
    Ac 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

  54. On July 24, 2008 at 2:15 pm rick Said:
    And once again we begin to “ring around the roses”.

    Mr 4:9 And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

  55. Wonder if living water could be referring to baptism too? Come on, you know the word water is used in many ways. Jesus used the word baptism in Mark 16:16, he could have done so in John as well. I guess I opened the door up on Mark 16:16 now  before you go there TD, please read the verses after 16 as well….oops that’s right, you will say that is for the believing apostles there and verse 16 above is for everyone. It appears Jesus tied them all together there to me…

  56. I know every scripture you will use TD, I have use them myself. I am not denying baptism as you think I am, I am saying that all to often we take things to such a degree that we neglect the work of Christ. Let me here you say that you aren’t here to baptize but to preach Christ, can you say that as Paul said it?

  57. WDTBS
    Did a lake tell you to be baptised for the remission of sins or did you hear it from a pool of water?
    Can you even hear God?

    Mr 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

  58. Thank you for that-I too want what God wants.

    I, also know that not everyone will get into heaven-simply because we live in a sinful, broken world with many who either choose not to or don’t want to believe and follow God. That hurts my heart, and that is one of the many reasons it frustrates me when I see followers of Christ attacking other followers of Christ simply over a difference in beliefs…and even more so when we choose to condemn each other, when that is FAR from what God intended. We don’t have that right, power, or ability; and honestly it is a waste of time. That is what the world sees-us bickering and attacking each other, which they get enough of that in the world-why would they want that in a church?

    We are to be loving each other-seeking unity even amidst our beliefs and disagreements. We need to be seeking ways to love everyone because they were created in the image of God, and finding ways to be God’s hands and feet in the world that is so badly in need of the hope and peace He offers.

    None of us can claim to have it “all” right or be perfect, and anyone who does claim that is deceiving themselves and others. We will not reach perfection until we get to heaven, but while on earth we should be seeking to unify, not divide; love, not hate; find what we have in common not everything we differ on.

  59. WDTBS
    1Co 1:17 ¶ For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

    Paul did not have to do the baptising but he preached it to be a must just as believing, repentance, and confession.
    1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

    He didnt want people to divide up into all these differing sects we have today.
    Ac 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
    Ac 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
    Mt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

    And the Church of Christ marches on.

  60. What do the verses after Mark 16: 16 say TD ? You rather ignore them, right ? As Kat stated, not one of us know nor understand everything we read in the bible….maybe that is what Paul meant by some on Milk and others Meat….will you toss aside the brethren on the milk, just because they haven’t come to your supposed understanding of the word and maybe just maybe you could even be wrong about some things too in the bible….but I doubt you will admit it. When you first was saved, how much of the bible did you understand?? Does everyone have the same learning skills as you ? See, TD how prideful we can become when we think we know it all……….to such a degree we kick out the weak and unlearned…..

  61. Katherine:
    2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
    17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

  62. 2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

  63. On July 24, 2008 at 2:44 pm T.D. Said:
    2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

    – does this apply to you too ? You are chasing after what you have been taught to such a degree that this may very well apply to you. Just as you point this verse at us, so could we you. But, I do suggest you go back and get the context before jerking a verse out like that and applying it to everyone who doesn’t hold your view. I have learned one thing, you Johnny followers sure are good at killing the context for your own views.

  64. What are you trying to say, T.D. that you have perfect knowledge like God and can understand EVERYthing in the Bible perfectly?

    If that is what you are saying, then that is both arrogant and ignorant.

    We are simply not God. We can understand what we do through our human knowledge and interpretations-but that does not mean that we have “arrived” at perfect knowledge-simply b/c we are fallible humans. We try to understand and follow Him faithfully, but it is not our duty to use our understanding or lack thereof to judge and condemn people. Don’t you understand that? We are to love them, not condemn…for even Jesus Himself was sent not to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him because of God’s great love. (John 3:16-17).

    When you can finally recognize people as created in God’s image, and realize that the body of Christ is more than your particular sect-you will see and treat others differently, and more importantly-you will see God differently.

  65. No joke, wdtbs. It is interesting that they think they can get away with that-all about chapter and verse, when they original was not even written like that-it was all one book, we are the ones who have sliced and diced it. Yes, it is helpful when trying to find a passage, but it also becomes detrimental when taken out of the larger context and picture to back up an agenda or doctrine that does not even fit with the rest of the Bible.

  66. WDTBS:
    Maybe Paul meant what he said.

    Eph 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
    4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

  67. Katherine:
    All judging is not wrong.

    Joh 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

    Also I cannot condemn you, if you are condemned it is only because you are not in Christ.

    Ro 8:1 ¶ There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

  68. Again, how much did you know when you were first saved ? You lacked understanding at that point, but was still saved, right? And, another thing…you seem to suggest that you are never wrong with your views, as if you have perfect understanding and God pity everyone else who hasn’t met your level of perfection yet. Are some on the milk of the word and some on meat ?? Will you kick aside those who are slower at learning ?

  69. On July 24, 2008 at 2:49 pm whatdoesthebiblesay Said:
    On July 24, 2008 at 2:44 pm T.D. Said:
    2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

    – does this apply to you too ? You are chasing after what you have been taught to such a degree that this may very well apply to you. Just as you point this verse at us, so could we you.

    I just had to chuckle alittle when I read this “itching ears” thing because that is always what the c of c says about anybody who is in another Christian faith or for those who boldly leave the c of c. Last summer, when I became a Methodist, my mother told me the same thing. I said, “Mom, how do we know this isn’t referring to the c of c who constantly downs other Christians because they think their doctrine is inferior and only theirs is sound? And since Methodists don’t waste time knocking others’ faith and constantly saying we have the one truth, over and over again who does that really sound like?” She’s not brought it up since and seems to have maybe just maybe opened her mind a little. However, I can tell she is still very uncomfortable discussing religion with me and I don’t try to push it as long as she is respecting my decision. I guess its all about mutual respect.

  70. On July 25, 2008 at 10:18 am T.D. Said:
    Katherine:

    Also I cannot condemn you, if you are condemned it is only because you are not in Christ.

    Do you really think this very good woman is not in Christ? You can’t honestly believe that can you?

  71. On July 25, 2008 at 11:24 am Gail Said:

    I just had to chuckle alittle when I read this “itching ears” thing because that is always what the c of c says about anybody who is in another Christian faith

    Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
    5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

    Gail, where did you get another christian faith?

    Ro 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

    You never heard of the methodist in Gods word.

  72. On July 25, 2008 at 10:35 am whatdoesthebiblesay Said:
    Again, how much did you know when you were first saved

    WDTBS:
    I knew enough to know that all these different, conflicting, confussing, misguiding, manmade doctrines did not come from God.

  73. Since you, TD, are recycling all the old hypercon church of Christ arguments, I’ll go ahead and recycle one of the hypercon church of Christ counter-arguments.

    You wrote:
    “You never heard of the methodist in Gods word.”

    I will give you $1000 if you can find “church of Christ” in God’s word.

  74. Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
    Ac 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
    Ro 16:16 Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you.
    Get your checkbook out if you are honest.

  75. On July 25, 2008 at 11:24 am Gail Said:

    And since Methodists don’t waste time knocking others’ faith

    does this apply to you too ? You are chasing after what you have been taught to such a degree that this may very well apply to you.

  76. On July 25, 2008 at 11:57 am answeringchurchofchrist Said: I will give you $1000 if you can find “church of Christ” in God’s word.

    Mt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it

    Who is speaking here? Christ
    What is he speaking of? Church= Church of Christ

    Are you a honest person or a liar?

  77. Judging people with the intent of claiming where they will end up for all eternity is wrong…

    and no need to condemn here-I am firmly IN Christ-my faith does not like in a man-made institutional church or denomination-but solely in Christ.

    You guys however are putting your faith in something that will not save you. The ONLY way is in Christ. Then we become His church, but somehow ya’ll have not quite grasped that.

  78. I’m an honest person, TD, thank you for asking.

    But you still haven’t successfully answered the challenge. You haven’t shown me a verse from Scripture that contains the words “church of Christ”. Remember, the challenge was to “find ‘church of Christ’ (in quotes – meaning that specific phrasing) in God’s Word.”

    Matt 16:18 in an inference, and inferences don’t count. You won’t find a translation of Scripture that reads “church of Christ” anywhere in that passage.

    Romans 16:16 doesn’t say “church of Christ” – it says “churches of Christ”. In English grammar, there is a difference between singular and plural. It also doesn’t read “church of Christ” anywhere in that passage.

    Try again?

    But I’m glad that you mentioned Romans 16:16, because another recycled hyper-con church of Christ counter-argument is to note that few (if any) hyperconservative churches of Christ obey the command of the first part of that verse (a command which is found a total of five times in the NT – check out this link – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_kiss), and yet you bind people to obey a command that is not found in the NT – that one MUST observe the Lord’s Supper each first day of the week (another inference) or risk losing one’s salvation.

    That doesn’t make any sense.

  79. Ha, you are stretching it, T.D.-you know what he meant. Find the exact phrase “church of Christ”.

    No matter how badly you want this to be, the institutional “church of Christ” that we worship in is simply not the “one true church” you want it to be. I am honest enough to admit that, why do you guys seem to be so stubborn? Oh, that’s right-it would completely destroy your agenda to “defeat and destroy” anyone not like you. Then you might actually have to accept some people that God has accepted, and show love to them. Heaven forbid you actually fulfill some of God’s greatest commandments.

  80. On July 25, 2008 at 12:41 pm Katherine Said:

    Then you might actually have to accept some people that God has accepted, and show love to them. Heaven forbid you actually fulfill some of God’s greatest commandments.

    Joh 14:15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.

    Ga 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
    20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
    21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

    Is God going to accept these people just as they are?
    I dont think so.

    Ac 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
    31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

  81. ACoC:
    Can you find a designation in the N.T. for any Church other than the Church of Christ?

  82. Oh, T.D. you just can’t seem to accept that what I am saying is true, so you have to twist it to something else. Luckily, it is not up to you or your crew who God accepts or does not accept. Luckily for everyone else-it is not just those in your sect that God has accepted and saved.

    Heaven is going to be much fuller than you guys expect :)

  83. Yes, if we love Him-we keep His commandments! We are motivated by love and not fear…and His commandments are not burdensome (1 John 5:3), His yoke is easy and His burden is light (Matthew 11:30). He asks us to come…

    then He asks us to love Him and one another (Luke 10:27, Galatians 5:14), to clothe ourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience (Col. 3:12), to “Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love” (Eph. 4:2)…(Do you see a pattern here?)

    Condemning and judging one’s salvation is not up to us (Luke 6:37) we are to love each other, even our enemies-and be a light into this world. God came to show us His love, to save us from our sins-and all we should be preaching is that-not OUR way to Him, but His way-and it is ONLY through HIM, not an institutional church, but through HIM and His awesome love!

  84. On July 25, 2008 at 1:13 pm T.D. Said:
    ACoC:
    Can you find a designation in the N.T. for any Church other than the Church of Christ?

    Yes, I believe Church of God is in the N.T. isn’t it.

  85. On July 25, 2008 at 11:24 am Gail Said:

    when I became a Methodist,

    Gail:
    What did you do to “become a methodist” and does that differ from what one would do to become a baptist,or a catholic, or a jehovahs witness,or a muslim. Can a methodist preacher preach methodist doctrine in a baptist church or v/v and if so why not have him preach methodist doctrine one week and then jehovahs witness doctrine the next, that way all of you so called “christians” could have your vain worship in the same building.

    Could Paul do this today or would you all kick him out?

    1Co 4:17 ¶ For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.
    Also if all of these differing doctrines are right, who could ever be worshipping in vain?

    Mt 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

  86. On July 25, 2008 at 1:31 pm Gail Said:
    Yes, I believe Church of God is in the N.T. isn’t it.

    Yes it is and it refers to the same Church Jesus said he would build.

    Mt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

    Ac 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

    Gail:
    Who had blood to shed for the church?

  87. You would probably actually kick Paul out for His radical teachings-I am not sure what you would do with Jesus, because he was pretty radical, too.

    It’s funny how your own verses come back on you, because you are also teaching doctrines of men. Denying it doesn’t change that FACT because truth remains truth always.

  88. On July 25, 2008 at 1:46 pm Katherine Said:
    You would probably actually kick Paul out for His radical teachings-I am not sure what you would do with Jesus, because he was pretty radical, too.

    It’s funny how your own verses come back on you, because you are also teaching doctrines of men. Denying it doesn’t change that FACT because truth remains truth always.

    Katerine:
    I hope you will repent for calling Jesus “radical” and these are not my verses, I did not write the bible.

    You would probably actually kick Paul out for His radical teachings-I am not sure what you would do with Jesus, because he was pretty radical, too.

    It’s funny how your own verses come back on you, because you are also teaching doctrines of men. Denying it doesn’t change that FACT because truth remains truth always.

  89. On July 25, 2008 at 1:09 pm T.D. Said:

    which are these; On July 25, 2008 at 1:09 pm T.D. Said:
    Joh 14:15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.

    Ga 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
    20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
    21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

    Is God going to accept these people just as they are?
    I dont think so.

    Well T.D. I’ve been in the Methodist church for over a year now, and I’ve got to tell ya, I haven’t seen anyone committing adultery, fornicating, being unclean or lascivious, idolizing, practicing witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies. I haven’t seen anybody envying others, or committing murders, getting drunk (we use grape juice too), or revelling.

    What I have seen is a lot of love, kindness, forgiveness, giving and lack of judging others. On the other hand, in the c of c, I have seen people committing adultery, idolizing the KJV, expressing hatred, lots of wrath, strife, and envy.

    But you know what? Eventhough you guys have done all these things, I think God will accept you anyway. But whether he does or not is something I don’t obsess over any longer as I did when in the c of c, I leave this up to God. Its his call.

  90. On July 25, 2008 at 1:47 pm Katherine Said:
    The CHURCH is God’s PEOPLE, T.D.!!!!! Try and understand that!!!

    I do not mean to upset you Katherine,and you are exactly right; “The Church” not Churches

  91. TD said:Gail:
    What did you do to “become a methodist” and does that differ from what one would do to become a baptist,or a catholic, or a jehovahs witness,or a muslim. Can a methodist preacher preach methodist doctrine in a baptist church or v/v and if so why not …

    Well I joined like you did your church. You know go up front and tell the minister who announces it to the whole congregation. Actually, there is a lot of inter-faith cooperation with those you mentioned, except you forget some we have had come to speak, like a rabbi and some Tibetan monks. They didn’t conduct a service, rather they shared the premise of their faith with us. I’ve learned so much about other cultures.

  92. I am not going to repent for calling Jesus radical-to the people of His day-He was radical. They thought He was crazy, the religious leaders were all against Him, always trying to trip Him up and find ways to condemn Him…eventually KILLING Him because they did not fit their already held beliefs.

    It is right there in the Bible-as you say, I did not write it-it is there-you just have to find it. You cannot look for what you WANT, you have to search for the truth which is ONLY found in Jesus, not YOUR idea of the church.

  93. On July 25, 2008 at 1:57 pm Gail Said:

    What I have seen is a lot of love, kindness, forgiveness, giving and lack of judging others. On the other hand, in the c of c, I have seen people committing adultery, idolizing the KJV, expressing hatred, lots of wrath, strife, and envy.

    Gail:
    the church is referred to as the bride of Christ. If he were married to all the denominational churches you would have him commiting spiritual adultery. thats Blasphemy.

    Mt 19:5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

  94. Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
    24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
    25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
    26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
    27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
    28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
    29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
    30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
    31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
    32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
    33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

  95. “I do not mean to upset you Katherine,and you are exactly right; “The Church” not Churches”

    Thanks T.D., but I think you are still missing my point. THE CHURCH that is spoken of in the Bible CANNOT be boiled down to an institutional church on earth, even the one we worship in with the title “church of Christ”. It just will never be true no matter how badly you want it to be. It is simply another man-made denomination with people in it striving to follow Christ-like many people in other denominations.

    To say anything else is just plain ignorant, arrogant, and completely illogical. The fact that we are divided so much within our OWN body proves that fact.

    No, the divisions are not good. No, I cannot imagine God likes them, nor do I. But, the fact is-we ourselves have created them, we have to live in them, and we don’t want to be charged with the job of dividing even more-which is EXACTLY what happens when anyone claims they are in the “one true church” and “everyone else is going to hell because somehow we fallible humans have found the exact, perfect interpretation of the Bible and everyone else is just too dumb to be on our level”. Do you see how illogical and arrogant that sounds? I hope you can.

    We should be striving for unity with other believers-reaching across the aisles and recognizing our common bond in Christ and what He has done for us. There are too many people lost and dying out there who do not know or who has shunned Christ because of the hypocrites and arrogance they see IN Christians-for us to be attacking and fighting each other over differences in interpretation.

  96. “Gail:
    the church is referred to as the bride of Christ. If he were married to all the denominational churches you would have him commiting spiritual adultery. thats Blasphemy.”

    No, He wouldn’t. That is what I am talking about-the CHURCH is God’s PEOPLE-not a building, not a name, not a particular denomination, but simply His CHURCH. The Church, His people are married to Christ. That’s it! It is simple. We are the ones who are making it harder.

    Just because you have a name does not make you the one and only church. Period. That goes for anyone making that claim, because I know that churches of Christ are not the only ones who make that claim. It is time we woke up and faced the truth!!

  97. On July 25, 2008 at 2:04 pm Gail Said:
    Well I joined like you did your church.

    Gail:
    I do not have a Church nor did I join a Church, I obeyed the gospel and the Lord added me to his church.
    No where do I read of anyone joining the church of Christ in the bible.
    Ac 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
    If you joined a church, or someone voted to let you in then it is not the Lords Church.

  98. You have never “placed membership” at a church of Christ? Then, you joined a church…

    and you are absolutely right in saying this: “the Lord added me to His church”-which is not the same thing as the institutional “church of Christ” that you are likely on the role as a member of.

    Two COMPLETELY different things.

    I agree that we should not have to be voted in-I don’t understand that, but placing membership or joining a “church” on earth is COMPLETELY different that the Lord adding us to His church, His one body.

    The “church” that is referred to in Acts 2 is not talking about a particular church with a name outside its building, but His body, His people, those who are written in the Book of Life.

  99. On July 25, 2008 at 2:20 pm Katherine Said:
    It just will never be true no matter how badly you want it to be.

    So Katherine you are saying that Jesus prayed a faithful prayer that was impossible.

    Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

  100. td
    as you may know i still havent received payment for
    providing the sinners prayer to johnny.
    perhaps you can remind faithless to pay me. and then
    faithless can tell winken, winken can tell blinken,
    blinken can tell nod and nod will tell johnny.
    [Andy Griffith ref]
    lee

  101. On July 25, 2008 at 2:23 pm Katherine Said:
    The Church, His people are married to Christ. That’s it! It is simple. We are the ones who are making it harder.

    Katherine:
    No truer statement have you ever made, so are you married to Christ, or are you married to John Wesley, John Smyth, or Charles T. Russell, or one of the other founders of manmade churches?

  102. On July 25, 2008 at 2:38 pm lee Said:
    td
    as you may know i still havent received payment for
    providing the sinners prayer to johnny.

    Joh 9:31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.

  103. i wasnt talking to god , i was talking to you.
    no one could possibly confuse the two……….
    amen?
    lee

  104. Gail:
    the church is referred to as the bride of Christ. If he were married to all the denominational churches you would have him commiting spiritual adultery. thats Blasphemy

    TD said:Gail:
    I do not have a Church nor did I join a Church, I obeyed the gospel and the Lord added me to his church.
    No where do I read of anyone joining the church of Christ in the bible.
    Gail:
    Does a person have to be in the methodist church to go to heaven?

    OK, but I bet you “placed membership” though didn’t you? Same thing. Your reeeeaaaaacccchhhhinnnngggg.

    So your congrgation is the only one going to heaven to keep Jesus from being an adulterer huh? Wow, I bet the other congregations don’t know about that.

    No, you don’t have to be a Methodist to go to heaven. Isn’t wonderful. Not to deny reality, by thinking I’m the only one.

  105. T.D. said:

    On July 25, 2008 at 2:20 pm Katherine Said:
    It just will never be true no matter how badly you want it to be.

    So Katherine you are saying that Jesus prayed a faithful prayer that was impossible.

    Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

    OK T.D., let’s put this in its proper CONTEXT…

    This is what I said: THE CHURCH that is spoken of in the Bible CANNOT be boiled down to an institutional church on earth, even the one we worship in with the title “church of Christ”. It just will never be true no matter how badly you want it to be.

    …which is still true-the church of Christ with the name outside that we walk into a couple of times a week is NOT the “one true church” because it can’t be boiled down to an institution. You seem to be more loyal to an institution than to Christ-it can’t be both. But, what you are seeming to still not understand is that the church is His PEOPLE-not because they worship at a particular building with a particular name a few times a week-but because of how they live their lives following God and because He has saved them as they come to Him.

    This does not say that Jesus prayed a faithful prayer that is impossible. But, what you are doing is striving against that prayer by creating even more divisions among the body.

  106. TD,

    Can you find the Martinsville church of Christ in the New Testament? The Danville church of Christ? The Reidsville church of Christ? If not, what gives your leadership the authority to have created those three congregations when none of them can be found in the New Testament?

    If you really wanted to be the New Testament church, you would have to move to Ephesus, or Corinth, or another town that is literally mentioned in the New Testament.

    OR – you have to admit that there is no Scriptural command that you must worship in a church that can be “found in the New Testament”, because the vast majority of churches in the world (including churches of Christ) are NOT found in the NT.

  107. God doesn’t live in a building with four walls and a sign outside. God is everywhere. And wherever a person may be at Jesus can save them. People are the body of Christ, people are the church, not a name that can be put on any building.

  108. Christ is so much more than just a name, He was more than just a man. He came to save not to condemn.

  109. On July 25, 2008 at 8:48 pm answeringchurchofchrist Said:
    OR – you have to admit that there is no Scriptural command that you must worship in a church that can be “found in the New Testament”, because the vast majority of churches in the world (including churches of Christ) are NOT found in the NT.

    Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

    Col 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

    In the name of the Lord Jesus, is by his authority. Faith comes by hearing the word of God Rom.10:17, and there is no authority to rename the Lords Church, nor to worship in any manner other than that prescribed in his word.

  110. Skipping over the obvious inconsistencies in your arguments regarding just what qualifies in “renaming the Lord’s Church”, why don’t you explain to us exactly what the worship is that is prescribed in His Word that you are apparently doing that the rest of us are not.

  111. Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

    Can you say impossible?

    Now where does faith come from?

    Ro 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

    If you are worshipping in a church and in a manner not found in the word of God, why would you think he would be pleased.

    Mr 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

  112. On July 26, 2008 at 11:19 am answeringchurchofchrist Said: why don’t you explain to us exactly what the worship is that is prescribed in His Word that you are apparently doing that the rest of us are not.

    Ac 2:42 ¶ And they continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

    Ac 20:7 ¶ And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.
    Eph 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

    1Co 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
    25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

    1Co 16:1 ¶ Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
    2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

  113. First of all, there is no command for the Lord’s Supper to be taken each Sunday in those verses. You and your crew infer a command. There is no condemnation for those who don’t take the Lord’s Supper each Sunday found in those verses. That is something you have added to the Scriptures.

    Now, having said that, I think taking the Lord’s Supper each week is great. I have attended churches regularly that do this. I have also attended churches that don’t do this. There is no Scriptural evidence that either of these kinds of churches are doing anything wrong.

    However, I will give you a direct command that you and your crew don’t follow:

    “Greet one another with a holy kiss” Romans 16:16 (also see I Corinthians 16.20; II Corinthians 13.12; I Thessalonians 5.26; I Peter 5.14).

  114. On July 25, 2008 at 3:09 pm Katherine Said:

    This does not say that Jesus prayed a faithful prayer that is impossible. But, what you are doing is striving against that prayer by creating even more divisions among the body.

    Katherine:
    The Church of Christ does not nor ever has created division among the body. Neither did Johnny, Norm, or James or myself create any division. The division occured many many years before we or you were born, its just gotten and will continue to get worse and worse with each new doctrine. We need to learn the doctrine of Christ.
    Mt 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

  115. On July 26, 2008 at 11:40 am answeringchurchofchrist Said:

    First of all, there is no command for the Lord’s Supper to be taken each Sunday in those verses

    Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

    sure sounds like a direct command to me.

    On July 26, 2008 at 11:40 am answeringchurchofchrist Said:
    However, I will give you a direct command that you and your crew don’t follow:

    “Greet one another with a holy kiss”

    ACoC
    That was the greeting of that day, today a handshake is the customary greeting.

  116. 1Co 11:16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

  117. On July 25, 2008 at 3:09 pm Katherine Said:

    the church of Christ with the name outside that we walk into a couple of times a week is NOT the “one true church” because it can’t be boiled down to an institution.

    Katherine:
    You are referring to brick and mortar that you walk into a couple of times a week as the Church, If the persons are worshipping according to spirit and truth,they are the Church, just because the sign out front says “Church of Christ” does not mean they are teaching the truth, just as if I put a walmart sign in my front yard does not make my house walmart, But if I truely desire to go to walmart and the sign says J.C Penny I dont even have to go in the door to know its not walmart.

  118. “Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.”

    Oh. Right. I didn’t see the part in that verse that says, “do this each Sunday or else lose your salvation.” Thanks for pointing that “direct command” out.

    As to the holy kiss, can you do me a favor and reread those verses I gave you, and tell me where it says the least little bit about a “customary” greeting. Actually, don’t bother. It doesn’t say a thing about a “customary” greeting. It says “holy kiss”.

    Now are you saying that you and your crew have the right and ability to pick and choose the parts that you want to follow, but you deny that right to everyone else?

    In the words of the famous theologian, the Church Lady, “Well. Isn’t that special?”

  119. Katherine:
    If you visit the Church of Christ at 823 Starling ave. in Martinsville or 120 American Legion blvd. in Danville or at the Holiday inn express in Reidsville,N.C. and we are doing something in our worship that is not prescribed by the N.T. authority of Jesus Christ, we will stop doing it and if we are not doing something that is prescribed by the authority of Jesus Christ we will repent and start doing it.

  120. On July 26, 2008 at 12:18 pm answeringchurchofchrist Said:

    In the words of the famous theologian, the Church Lady, “Well. Isn’t that special?”

    You can listen to the church lady and go to hell or you can obey Christ and go to Heaven, no one is going to force you.

  121. Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

  122. “and if we are not doing something that is prescribed by the authority of Jesus Christ we will repent and start doing it.”

    Does that mean you are going to start greeting one another with a holy kiss?

  123. “You can listen to the church lady and go to hell or you can obey Christ and go to Heaven, no one is going to force you.”

    You should put that on a t-shirt, T.D.

    So, you are saying that a person can’t obey Christ and quote the Church Lady?

    BCV, please?

  124. On July 26, 2008 at 12:18 pm answeringchurchofchrist Said:
    “Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.”

    Oh. Right. I didn’t see the part in that verse that says, “do this each Sunday or else lose your salvation.” Thanks for pointing that “direct command” out.

    Ac 20:7 ¶ And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

    ACoC:
    How many weeks have a first day? What does this verse say their purpose for coming together was? Keep watching SNL church lady and you’ll drift further and further from the truth.

  125. On July 26, 2008 at 12:41 pm answeringchurchofchrist Said:
    Does that mean you are going to start greeting one another with a holy kiss?

    ACoC:
    Do you do this?
    Mt 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

  126. T.D. said:

    “Katherine:
    The Church of Christ does not nor ever has created division among the body. Neither did Johnny, Norm, or James or myself create any division. The division occured many many years before we or you were born, its just gotten and will continue to get worse and worse with each new doctrine. We need to learn the doctrine of Christ.
    Mt 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.”

    Wrong again. No way are you being really honest. You are ADDING to the division by making the arrogant claim that you are the “one true church”, that everything you do is “right” and that anyone not in your version of the church is condemned to hell for all eternity for not reaching your same, “right” perfect interpretation.

    If you cannot see that, you really have been blinded…but when you are more loyal to an institution rather than Christ, your eyes and heart will not be completely upon.

    Here is truth from you: “We need to learn the doctrine of Christ”. Amen. Then put down your man-made doctrine and lean solely on Him. You are still sowing the seeds sown by people like Daniel Sommer who later lamented all of the division he knew he had created. He could not see it then, just like you cannot see it now-but finally came to realize what he had done at 83 years old, and tried to repair what he had torn down, but much of it was too late. You guys are still sowing his seed, but you just cannot see it unfortunately.

    “Ye shall find rest for your souls”. Yes-not condemnation. Like I have said from the beginning-His yoke is easy, His burden is light, and His commands are not burdensome.

  127. ACoC

    Which of these would you consider to be your “brother in Christ” Adventist, Baptist, Catholic,Christians, Greek Orthodox,Holiness, jehovahs witness, Luthren, Mennonite, Methodist, Mormons, Moravians, Nazerines, Pentecostals, Presbyterians,Quakers, Unitarians, etc.

  128. T.D. said:

    “Katherine:
    You are referring to brick and mortar that you walk into a couple of times a week as the Church, If the persons are worshipping according to spirit and truth,they are the Church, just because the sign out front says “Church of Christ” does not mean they are teaching the truth, just as if I put a walmart sign in my front yard does not make my house walmart, But if I truely desire to go to walmart and the sign says J.C Penny I dont even have to go in the door to know its not walmart.”

    That is EXACTLY what I have been trying to say the entire time-you guys are the one who keeps boiling it down to a name. You are right-the sign or building has nothing to do with it-it is all about the PEOPLE inside who are worshiping God. Therefore it does not have to have a sign out front called “church of Christ” for the people inside to be saved and be God’s people…so why do you still say your name and your sign and designation make the “one true church”? You see what I mean?

  129. “Which of these would you consider to be your “brother in Christ” Adventist, Baptist, Catholic,Christians, Greek Orthodox,Holiness, jehovahs witness, Luthren, Mennonite, Methodist, Mormons, Moravians, Nazerines, Pentecostals, Presbyterians,Quakers, Unitarians, etc.”

    If they seek after Christ, it doesn’t matter what they are called.

    And I find it hilarious that you would imply that Mennonites are not Christians. You going to say that Amish are going to Hell now, too?

  130. On July 26, 2008 at 1:20 pm Katherine Said:
    Wrong again. No way are you being really honest.

    Katherine:
    Lets see who is being really honest.
    1 Who founded the Church of Christ, and gave his life for it?
    2 Who founded the baptist, m.ethodist, catholic,church etc?
    3 Did Jesus ever say worship at the church of your choice, and in a manner that is pleasing to you?
    4 Do you ever read of anyone being saved before they are baptised for the remission of sins in the N.T?
    5 Did Jesus say we MUST worship him in spirit and truth?

  131. “Katherine:
    If you visit the Church of Christ at 823 Starling ave. in Martinsville or 120 American Legion blvd. in Danville or at the Holiday inn express in Reidsville,N.C. and we are doing something in our worship that is not prescribed by the N.T. authority of Jesus Christ, we will stop doing it and if we are not doing something that is prescribed by the authority of Jesus Christ we will repent and start doing it.”

    Well, thank you for the invitation, but I am not going to go into all of that…and gas is too expensive for me to drive that far :)

    The point is that the church is WAY more than “being church” 2 or 3 hours a week. That is why I keep emphasizing the fact that the church is the “people”. Your salvation is certainly not going to be staked on if you get everything “right” in a particular place for a few hours a week. It is about how you live out the entire 168 hours a week. It is about how you live your life in front of others, how you love people, look for ways to serve, treat people like Jesus would-with respect and humility, etc., living faithfully for Him in all you do. Yes, coming together for those few hours with fellow believers is vital and wonderful, but that is NOT only what church is. If anyone thinks that, they have greatly missed the point.

    Especially when we realize we live in an incredibly post-Christian society who are not flocking INTO the doors of our churches-so we must be going out to them…not with a message of condemnation, not with a message of “our church is better than that church”, not with an idea to prove them wrong or just get then dunked…but the pure message of Jesus and the cross-God’s love, mercy, grace, and free gift of salvation. Then the rest will fall in place (hopefully).

    But when the world sees hypocrisy, division, arrogance, in the one place where it just should not be-they don’t want it…and why would they? It is in the world-how is it any different in the church? I am not pointing fingers-we are all guilty of this and it breaks my heart, because I understand where they are coming from and have been hurt by it, too-but I have a greater God who can handle all of that.

  132. On July 26, 2008 at 1:30 pm Chris Knight Said:
    And I find it hilarious that you would imply that Mennonites are not Christians. You going to say that Amish are going to Hell now, too?

    Chris:
    I did not write the bible.

    Mt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

  133. TD, you are doing something that the bible tells you NOT to do. You teach that people can save themselves only if they do everything YOU decide is right. When Jesus is the only one who can save us, our works do not save us, Jesus saves us. YOU decide what parts of the bible are more important and overlook other parts, when the WHOLE bible is Gods word and is important. And also YOU put yourselves on Gods throne and YOU decide who is going to heaven and who is going to hell, when God tells us NOT to condemn others, only God can do that.

  134. T.D.,
    The “Church of Christ” that is locally prominent was not founded by Jesus Christ. It was founded by a bunch of unregenerate, cranky men who wanted to be ecclesiastical bullies and they stole the “Church of Christ” name out of the Bible so that it would make them look righteous.

    The “Church of Christ” that you are espousing are theological gangbangers. Nothing more.

  135. On July 26, 2008 at 1:40 pm Katherine Said:
    It is about how you live your life in front of others, how you love people, look for ways to serve, treat people like Jesus would-with respect and humility, etc.,
    Katherine:
    Did Jesus not get angry?

    Joh 2:15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers’ money, and overthrew the tables;
    16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father’s house an house of merchandise.
    17 And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.

  136. Katherine:
    Lets see who is being really honest.
    1 Who founded the Church of Christ, and gave his life for it?
    2 Who founded the baptist, methodist, catholic,church etc?
    3 Did Jesus ever say worship at the church of your choice, and in a manner that is pleasing to you?
    4 Do you ever read of anyone being saved before they are baptised for the remission of sins in the N.T?
    5 Did Jesus say we MUST worship him in spirit and truth?

    1) Jesus founded the Church of Christ that we can read about in Acts that encompasses all of the people of God-which is VERY different than the institutional “church of Christ” that we are members of. There is A HUGE difference which you are just not seeing or refusing to see. We have another history-out of the Restoration movement, and some of which comes from people who were Presybterians and Baptists! It has actually been altered from the beginning where the plea was for unity-“Only Christians, but not Christians only” to what we are today-severely divided, with factions and radical sectarianism.

    2) see number one-you are still confusing the Church, or body of Christ with denominations (which the institutional church of Christ is one). Like I said previously, no one likes the divisions-but not one institutional church can claim that they are the “one true church”. Good grief-that is exhausting, not to mention arrogant.

    3) No, but if we are really honest-we will realize we are ALL doing that-those in churches of Christ included.

    4) Yes, but that does not mean people should not be baptized. (I have never spoken against it, so I don’t know where that came from).

    5) Yes, but I believe your idea of “spirit and truth” condemns people who don’t see it just like you.

  137. T.D.,

    Good gravy. I start talking about love, respect, and humility, and you come back with “Did Jesus not get angry?”

    Ok, yes, but did He also tell us over and over and over to love each other, our neighbor, even our enemies? To turn the other cheek, to walk another mile, to give them our cloak? To bear with each other, forgive each other, be patient, humble, etc…

    You have such a skewed view of the Bible that you can’t even see this, and it is sad.

  138. On July 26, 2008 at 1:45 pm Truth Said:
    TD, you are doing something that the bible tells you NOT to do. You teach that people can save themselves only if they do everything YOU decide is right.

    “Truth”
    Did Peter say save yourselves here? and what did they have to do to save themselves? AGAIN I did not write the bible.

    Ac 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

  139. T.D. said:

    “Chris:
    I did not write the bible.”

    Then, stop trying to play God-because that is EXACTLY what you are doing. It is disgusting, arrogant, and a complete waste of time.

    You have twisted the Bible so much that you cannot even see beyond your own agenda to see how God really views or loves people, or you would act and believe completely differently. But, I think that part of the problem is that your view of how God views us is skewed, so that flows into how you treat others.

  140. Try again T.D.

    “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—NOT by works, so that no one can boast.” ~Ephesians 2:8-9

    “So do not be ashamed to testify about our Lord, or ashamed of me his prisoner. But join with me in suffering for the gospel, by the power of God, 9who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.”

    ~2 Timothy 1:8-10

    I did not write the Bible either, but there is the WHOLE Bible, not just the scriptures you want to pluck from obscurity to prove something.

  141. On July 26, 2008 at 1:49 pm Katherine Said:
    1) Jesus founded the Church of Christ that we can read about in Acts that encompasses all of the people of God-which is VERY different than the institutional “church of Christ” that we are members of.

    2) see number one-you are still confusing the Church, or body of Christ with denominations (which the institutional church of Christ is one).

    Katherine:
    The world has gotten you so mixed up you dont even believe Jesus has a Church.

  142. On July 26, 2008 at 1:59 pm Katherine Said:
    Try again T.D.

    “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—NOT by works, so that no one can boast.” ~Ephesians 2:8-9

    NOT by GRACE ONLY
    Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

  143. No, T.D. the world has not gotten me so mixed up-Jesus does have a Church-His people. I understand that. You don’t-you keep boiling it down to an institution-THAT is what the “church of Christ” is-a man-made institution that has members of THE CHURCH as a part of it.

    You have come at this backwards-no thinks to Johnny I am sure-trying to prove somehow that you are the “one true church”, which has never been our goal in the first place, nor what God has called us to, and for that matter-it is impossible.

    But, when it is your main goal to “defeat and destroy” as Johnny has proclaimed all of the other denominations in an effort to make you look right and everyone else look wrong-which should never be or goal-it should only be to love people and bring them to Christ-this could be troublesome. You can choose to be stubborn and not accept this-or go on with your agenda-your choice.

    But, the truth will still remain true, history will still be history (which we have one), and God will still be God-no matter what we say or believe. Everything will come to light.

    I hope you one day understand and can see the body of Christ for who it is and what it is, because it is pretty amazing, especially when the lines are erased and all you see are people trying to follow God faithfully-not names, not labels-just disciples of Christ.

  144. 1Co 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

    The Grace of God that was given to Paul was The word of God, You can believe it, Obey it and be saved or try to make it into something that its not and remain lost forever.

  145. Also people who think that there church is the only church going to heaven it is because their view of God makes God so much smaller than what He is. And when God refers people who are lost we do need to keep in mind it’s not just in the area we live in. He means people on the entire earth that are lost. Look at all the other religions everywhere that are telling people to follow anything other than Jesus. When a church is so focused on fighting with other churches they loose focus on the people who are so in need of the word of God.

  146. On July 26, 2008 at 1:49 pm Katherine Said:
    1) Jesus founded the Church of Christ that we can read about in Acts that encompasses all of the people of God-which is VERY different than the institutional “church of Christ” that we are members of.

    Katherine:
    You are the one that said the church of Christ was an institution, not me.
    Maybe the one that you joined is an institution,but the one God adds you to upon obedience to his word is a spiritual kingdom.

    Mt 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

  147. On July 26, 2008 at 2:13 pm Katherine Said:
    I hope you one day understand and can see the body of Christ for who it is and what it is, because it is pretty amazing, especially when the lines are erased and all you see are people trying to follow God faithfully-not names, not labels-just disciples of Christ.

    Do you mean those deacons in the Baptist church that get drunk at the wet tee shirt contest on sat. night and then baptize you as an outward showing of an inward faith, or are you referring to the woman methodist preacher who wants a wife? or maybe the catholic who sins willfully and then pays his concious clean,or maybe those in your “institutional church of Christ” that bring in mechanical instruments of music,and feel that they can take the Lords Supper once a year and that would be fine.
    AGAIN Jesus says:

    Mt 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

  148. I never said by grace only, BUT everything must be harmonized. You simply cannot just work for your salvation-God is the one who saves-we respond-yes, but nothing we can do alone can save. You cannot ignore that we are saved “by grace through faith, not from works”-and then jump to “we are saved by works”.

    It must ALL harmonize.

  149. T.D. said:

    “Do you mean those deacons in the Baptist church that get drunk at the wet tee shirt contest on sat. night and then baptize you as an outward showing of an inward faith, or are you referring to the woman methodist preacher who wants a wife? or maybe the catholic who sins willfully and then pays his concious clean,or maybe those in your “institutional church of Christ” that bring in mechanical instruments of music,and feel that they can take the Lords Supper once a year and that would be fine.
    AGAIN Jesus says:

    Mt 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.”

    Good grief, T.D. I am not getting into specifics-there are people who do all of that in every church, because we are sinners. To continue to do it willfully will reap judgment, yes-but I will not be the one to condemn. That is what I have been talking about hypocrisy-when you see someone-anyone who claims to be a Christian go against the will of God on any day of the week, and then walk into church like they are perfect and can do no wrong-yes, that is hypocrisy and they will be judged according to how they live their life.

    Yes, whoever does the will of my Father is my brother and my sister-that is what I have been saying ALL along.

  150. On July 26, 2008 at 2:23 pm Truth Said:
    Also people who think that there church is the only church going to heaven it is because their view of God makes God so much smaller than what He is.

    “truth”
    AGAIN when you view the church as their church, my church, our church or any other nonscriptural designation, you just dont get it.

    If you are not in the Church of God that Jesus shed his blood to purchase, you cannot go to heaven.

  151. T.D.,
    How is what you are saying different from most other cults throughout history?

    What are you offering that hasn’t been already offered before?

  152. T.D. said:

    “Katherine:
    You are the one that said the church of Christ was an institution, not me.
    Maybe the one that you joined is an institution,but the one God adds you to upon obedience to his word is a spiritual kingdom.

    Mt 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.”

    I know-you are still confusing the two. The church of Christ with the sign outside is an institutional church-with doctrines from men and a history in the Restoration movement, which is completely different from the spiritual kingdom, His church that God adds you into-we are in agreement on that part. You are just still confusing the earthly church of Christ with the spiritual Church, or body of Christ made up of His believers.

    God added me to His Church (His people) and I (and you if you have ever placed membership somewhere) have become members of institutional churches on earth-made up of His body of believers.

  153. T.D. said:

    “AGAIN when you view the church as their church, my church, our church or any other nonscriptural designation, you just dont get it.

    If you are not in the Church of God that Jesus shed his blood to purchase, you cannot go to heaven.”

    No, you are the one who does not seem to get it.

    “the Church of God that Jesus shed His blood to purchase” does NOT equal “the church of Christ that you worship in”. Period. No two ways around it. Yes, we can say “I am a member of _________ church of Christ”, but that does not mean the same thing as saying I am a member of the Church, or body of Christ that Jesus died for. Being members of _________ church of Christ does not mean you are IT. Being added into the CHURCH (His PEOPLE) by God Himself does.

  154. On July 26, 2008 at 2:40 pm Katherine Said:
    It must ALL harmonize.

    Katherine:
    Would you agree one must hear the word of God?
    Is that a work of man or of God?
    Would you agree one must believe what it teaches?
    Is this a work of man or God?
    Would you agree one must repent?
    Is that a work of man or God?
    Would you agree one must confess Christ?
    Is that a work of man or God
    Would you agree one must be baptized to have sins washed away?
    Is this a work of man or God?
    Who prescribed these works Katherine, Man or God?

    Now if I said you must be sprinkled as an outward showing of an inward faith, Whos works would that be?

    Naaman wanted it his way to:
    2Ki 5:11 But Naaman was wroth, and went away, and said, Behold, I thought, He will surely come out to me, and stand, and call on the name of the LORD his God, and strike his hand over the place, and recover the leper.
    12 Are not Abana and Pharpar, rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? may I not wash in them, and be clean? So he turned and went away in a rage.
    13 And his servants came near, and spake unto him, and said, My father, if the prophet had bid thee do some great thing, wouldest thou not have done it? how much rather then, when he saith to thee, Wash, and be clean?
    14 Then went he down, and dipped himself seven times in Jordan, according to the saying of the man of God: and his flesh came again like unto the flesh of a little child, and he was clean.

  155. Look, it all boils down to this: we are ALL human, ALL infallible, ALL imperfect, ALL sinners, and ALL in need of a Savior.

    We do the best we can, live as faithfully as we can, hopefully love others as best we can and look for ways to serve them, fellowship with our brothers and sisters, and strive to build God’s kingdom.

    There is NO perfect human, NO perfect earthly church, because we are not God, will never arrive at FULL knowledge or some perfect interpretation on earth.

    To declare ANYthing else is completely dishonest, ignorant, and arrogant.

    We continue to strive for the goal, run the race, leaning on our community as we go-as we journey together through this life.

  156. Oh, T.D. you are so incredibly focused on what everyone else is doing wrong or not how you interpret-trying to find the specks in their eyes, that you cannot even see the truth I am laying in front of you. It does not fit your agenda-or the one handed to you by Johnny and the bunch.

    I said it ALL has to harmonize-I said we do respond, but God and God ONLY has the power to save. We do not. Period. Boiling down our salvation to a 5 or 6 step plan is absurd. We respond, yes-but it is God’s GRACE through our faith that gives us the salvation that was made possible through Jesus’ death on a cruel cross. Otherwise the death of Jesus on the cross did absolutely nothing-but we know better :)

  157. On July 26, 2008 at 2:49 pm Chris Knight Said:
    T.D.,
    How is what you are saying different from most other cults throughout history?

    What are you offering that hasn’t been already offered before?

    Chris:
    I would hate to stand on Judgement day before the Lord and say that His Church is no different than any of the manmade churches in the world.

    Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

  158. It is what is in our hearts and souls that Jesus saves us. To believe and repent is something that is done within us, our flesh cannot save us.

  159. T.D., Jesus doesn’t care about what church we belong to. He only cares about whether we have chosen that we desire to love Him.

    And you are not in a position to judge about that.

  160. On July 26, 2008 at 3:03 pm Katherine Said:
    We continue to strive for the goal, run the race, leaning on our community as we go-as we journey together through this life.

    Let me tell you something Katherine, You better lean on Gods word because your community will let you down.

  161. On July 26, 2008 at 3:27 pm Chris Knight Said:
    T.D., Jesus doesn’t care about what church we belong to. He only cares about whether we have chosen that we desire to love Him.

    And you are not in a position to judge about that.

    Chris:
    What scripture are you quoteing?
    You mean God wants all to be saved, and he is coming back for his Church and he doesn’t care wheather you are in it or not? WOW!

    2Pe 3:9 ¶ The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

  162. On July 26, 2008 at 3:03 pm Katherine Said:
    We continue to strive for the goal, run the race, leaning on our community as we go-as we journey together through this life.

    Let me tell you something Katherine, You better lean on Gods word because your community will let you down.

    T.D.

    I knew I should have made that clearer-I was just adding community in there because it seems sometimes we forget that God has given them to us to help us in our journey. You are right-I do lean on God and His Word, but something I have come to realize is that He has also given me an incredible community to help me and pray on my behalf when I struggle. I used to try and to it all myself, before I realized I had to rely on God and that He has blessed with a community that can help me on this journey-and I can help and encourage them in return.

    Yes, they will let us down-trust me I have been hurt worse by Christians than by anyone else, but it is because I rely firmly on God first that they cannot drag me down-and I will continue to live in and be a part of God’s community-knowing we are not perfect, but striving to further God’s kingdom.

  163. Joh 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

    Jesus Paid it all

    Joh 14:15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.

    Gotta run folks, been nice.

  164. T.D. said:

    “I would hate to stand on Judgement day before the Lord and say that His Church is no different than any of the manmade churches in the world.”

    But His Church IS different the man-made churches in the world. That is what I have been saying ALL along.

    It is just that His CHURCH does NOT equal your particular brand of the “church of Christ”-which is man-made church, with a history that has been written down for all time. To deny it will not erase it.

    The sooner you realize that and accept it, the clearer things will be…AND we can help the future of the church not be so divided.

  165. “John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

    Jesus Paid it all

    John 14:15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.

    Gotta run folks, been nice.”

    Thanks for engaging in the conversation, T.D. I don’t know if we got anywhere, but thank you for being cordial. I pray we will all continue to seek God’s will and not our own in this world.

  166. A person can go and do all the good works that they possilbly can but that doesn’t save them. Because they will still sin. Jesus is the only One who can save them. God knows that all people do and will sin and He sent Jesus to save us not to condemn us. Sin is like a disease we are dying from that we have no cure for, God knew we needed a cure and gave us that cure which is Jesus and He suffered to pay the price for our sins so we should not have to suffer for our sins. God wants to save us. To me there is nothing greater than God and His grace and mercy. We should do good works because of our love for God and we want to strive to do better for Him but we will always fall short in one way or another but God still will love us and save us. That is the awesome grace of God.

  167. TD, you keep re-quoting people here but then you twist what they said into something they weren’t even saying. Oh,but that what you guys do best.

  168. I think what we’ve just seen here over the past few hours was class in session. Notice how “faithful” has disappeared and now “TD” is here?

    I think they have been instructed to come here, one at a time, to practice their arguing (I’m not going to say “discussing” or “debating”). All for the sake of their “propaganda school” – er, “preaching school”.

    You could switch the usernames of these men and leave the text of the comments, and there wouldn’t need to be any changes made (except more grammatical errors in at least one case).

  169. I do have to respond to this:

    Do you mean those deacons in the Baptist church that get drunk at the wet tee shirt contest on sat. night and then baptize you as an outward showing of an inward faith, or are you referring to the woman methodist preacher who wants a wife? or maybe the catholic who sins willfully and then pays his concious clean,or maybe those in your “institutional church of Christ” that bring in mechanical instruments of music,and feel that they can take the Lords Supper once a year and that would be fine.

    So, nobody in the church of Christ…
    1) drinks
    2) lusts
    3) is homosexual

    What’s really amazing is that you equate those Biblically specified sins with using instruments in worship and not taking the Lord’s Supper each first day of the week. Please show me the BCV that calls either of those things a sin.

  170. And, by the way, about the church I attend…

    I worship with churches of Christ. These churches don’t have the name “church of Christ” on the door, but the name on the door is really irrelevant. They are gatherings of people devoted to Christ, just as the 1st century churches were gatherings of people devoted to Christ. They aren’t perfect, but they are seeking after Christ. They study the Word. They praise and worship together.

    And they aren’t interested in defeating and destroying anyone.

    By the way, T.D., what do you think of that – that Johnny Robertson came onto this blog and told me that it was his goal to “defeat destroy” me? How do you justify that sort of an attitude? How is that at all representative of the church that Christ shed his blood to found?

  171. Johnny and his crew do need to get off their high horse they get on when they try to argue with someone because that person says my or their talking about the church they attend. They again just try to twist what is being said into something it isn’t meaning. The house that you grew up in, when you spoke about that house you didn’t say my parents house or have to use your parents names, of course not, you said my house. For them to try to make an arguement out of this is ignorant.

  172. The church is Gods church and He is our Father. And in this church that He made for us we come together as a family. No church is an institution. We are Gods children. The church is a place God made for us to be together as a family with our Father. I see nothing wrong with someone saying my church seeing that He made the church for us.

  173. “blinken will tell nod and nod will tell johnny”
    ……..why do i waste these?…………….

  174. Actually if they want to argure over a word like my, nothing really belongs to us. Everything we think is ours it all comes back to God. God created everything. What ever we think is something we created or made God had to give someone the creative mind to make it so it’s still God creation. He also gives us the natural resources for some of the things we use to work like He gives us gas and oil for our car to work so our car is not ours it’s Gods. So nothing is ours it’s all Gods but yet we will still say my.

  175. And if someone tries to say what about the bad things people make, that’s not God that is man, God creates good things.

  176. I have stumbled upon this conversation and feel that I must place my humble opinion.

    First I am a Youth Minister and would be embarrassed to have had a discussion like this one in class, at any time. I feel that this discussion could have been GREAT, an exploration of why each person believes what they do and why that belief exists. Instead some people turned it into an argument much like my children (aged 2,4,6,10) have. “I’m right, you’re not.” Instead of discussing ideas, beliefs, and thoughts some attacked and chose to fight. Some comments sound hateful, bitter, or simply like moments of lashing out at others who have questioned beliefs.As a fellow Christian I am ashamed that this is the example of behavior we feel that we must show the world. When we disagree we seem to feel that we must fight or else the other person is in the right. Not fighting or fighting does not decide right. Either you are right or you are wrong.

    I am not perfect, I will never say I am. I attempt to follow the example that was given me, but just like a child following an adult in the snow I fall because the footsteps that Jesus left for us to follow are beyond my reach. Sometimes I nail the step, other times I fall into deep holes that the Lord stepped right over. That unfortunately is called “being human, imperfect”.

    I noticed a couple of verses being used and want to end by asking some questions. The verses are:

    1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

    Question 1.
    What commandments should we keep?
    :My understanding of a commandment is a direct order, not a suggestion, an inferred command, or a general idea.

    Jesus answered this in these verse.
    Matthew 19:16-30
    Matthew 22:34-36
    Mark 12:28-34
    Matthew 28:19-20
    These are just a few.

    Question 2:
    What was the explanation of loving one’s neighbor that Jesus gave?

    Luke 10:25-37

    May I ask you, as a group, a question that will probably upset a few?

    Question 3:
    Why do Christians or those that profess to be Christians feel that the worlds methods will serve to spread the gospel? The world uses the twisting of words, the snide comments, and the narrow-minded justifications to convince one-another that they are right. Why must we? I feel that maybe we have failed where Paul excelled.
    Acts 17:16-34

    As a side note I stumbled upon this site during some research about “The Church of Christ”. I have discovered some very interesting information and this blog has further emphasized this information. This information is that while there is much within this “organization” that follows Scripture well and gives glory to God; there is also much that is based on shaky ground or man’s ideals. There seems to be areas that the average attender of this style worship is extremely vehement about the rightness of, yet they lack solid evidence of proof. An example of this is the enforcement of The Lord’s Supper on every Sunday. First I find the participation of The Lord’s Supper to be an amazing event that I feel allows me to grow and worship. That being said, It is not required at any time in the Bible to have The Lord’s Supper at any specific time. Supporting verse for this:
    1 Corinthians 11:17-34
    Luke 22:17-20
    I want to draw your attention to the 26 verse of 1 Corinthians. If this does not leave the time of celebrating The Lord’s Supper to the discretion of the group of Christians, I fail to see what it means. For those who attempt to use Paul “breaking bread” with the other Christians in Acts 20:7, I hate to tell you but this is a reference to the fact that in that day you had bread with every meal. The fellowship of believers had come together to eat while Paul preached. If you feel this is wrong please refer to these articles.

    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/break+bread

    http://washington.bizjournals.com/washington/stories/2007/10/29/smallb8.html

    These are just a few examples of this phrase in use. This phrase is much like our word; Breakfast, which comes from the phrase “to break one’s fast” as the meal that you would eat in the morning is the one that you would have first after a religious fasting in Europe influenced religions.(like Lent)

    I hope that you will each read these comments and think upon them, they are not meant to anger, upset, or even trouble. They are meant to make you think, consider, and ponder. If you disagree with me, I will willingly open a dialogue with you. If you agree, I would also like to discuss these and other issues.

    Bro.Matt.Mitchell@gmail.com

  177. disappoited, great comments and I wish we could get along better but it just sometimes seems so impossible with some. Johnny Robertson and his crew in the hyercon. church of Christ come on here and try to make us stumble in our walk with the Lord and we shouldn’t let a man cause us to stumble. And I have prayed asking the Lord to give us strength when we are dealing with these people. Thank you again for your comments.

  178. disappointed, we also recognize that these men in this “hypercon.” church of Christ do not represent other Church of Christ that are respectful and do seek the truth in Gods word, that ones for you Katherine.

  179. I think that it is interesting the lack on study that often goes on, not only in Churches of Christ, but in all denominations. It seems that so many are happy with only believing and clinging to what, mom or dad, the preacher, or a friend told/taught them. I see such a lack of interest in biblical study. I think that we need to understand that most of these problems discussed on this blog comes from people who either do not study in their daily lives, are afraid to ask questions due to a fear of change, or are people that study to back up their already preconceived ideas. Which we all know is a mistake. It makes me sad, and sometimes I feel alone in my passion for biblical understanding. The only way things will ever change is with a fire for study and a heart conformed to Christ. God bless us in trying to open the hearts of stone that are in our congregations.

  180. Check our my blog on these issues, I just got started so please take some time and discuss with me some questions there – drawingclosertochrist.wordpress.com

  181. Jesus mentioned water and the Spirit in John: Which did he explain?

    If water baptism is to remove sin: Why was Jesus baptized? Why did he make an exception for the thief on the cross?

    If water baptism is necessary for salvation, why did the apostle Paul (with few exceptions) leave the baptizing to others?

    Who does Paul admonish to study the Scriptures and for what purpose?

    We are admonished to examine ourselves: For what purpose?

    May “our God” bless you all in your walk with Him.

  182. Acts 20:7 is always used by churches of Christ to justify taking the Lord’s supper on the first day of the week. If they would read a little further they would see that Paul preached until midnight when the young man fell from the third story. After this had taken place they went upstairs and broke bread. If that is the case, it would have actually been monday morning when they broke bread. Not Sunday.

  183. God knows that we are all perfectly imperfect. We are all sinners! As a resutlt he knew that different perspcectives “Christian Dogmas” would materialize. The most important thing is that his standards require us to put him first and foremost in our lives. They are his standards, not ours.

    Our Creator is one in the same! Regardless of our take on the scripture aka (Christian Dogma).

    Put him first no matter what and you will indeed live in the kingdom of heaven for eternity.

  184. Does anybody on this blog actually read the bible? the bible instructs us to rightly divide it which presupposes that one can wrongly divide it. First, the bible emphatically tells us that the old testament is written for our learning, not to follow, romans 15:4. READ Colossians 2:14-16, 2 Corinthians 3 and many more scriptures that tell us that we(christians) are not under the law. we are under the doctrine of Christ, 2 john 9. there is only one body(church) ephesians 1:20-22, 4:4 and many more.i can go on and on about what sayeth the scriptures. it is clear to me that most of the people on this blog haven’t STUDIED the bible, they’ve just read some parts of it.

  185. I have read the New Testament but I am not going to claim that I have studied it as Mr. Williams mentioned above. I have started recently and it takes much, much longer to do so than just reading the words. With that I am not going to pull verses from the bible to make my point. I recently began going to a cofc and I love it. I grew up catholic (Catholic school for 15 years and church 2-3 times a week along with other classes you get the idea). What made me decide to go was A) My girlfriend goes there :) and B) the priest seemed to think that only what they said was true. After seeing how the CofC operates where I am from I have found what I believe:
    1)In God
    2)In Jesus Christ
    3)Treating your brother as you would have them treat you.
    The rest is MAN’s interpretation. The CofC that I attend believes all of these things as do all christian denominations. That in itself I think unites us. However, I have found many things that I have disagreed with in the cofc. One of with is disregarding musical instruments in service because it is not in the new testament. But neither are pues, mass assemblies, loud speakers, projectors, slide shows, etc. and I have seen all of them in Churches of Christ. I asked one member what would happen if a CofC decided to use instruments and he replied, “Well they wouldnt be a CofC.” The comment goes against the two reasons this church was built. 1) It is Christ’s Church not mine or yours, if this is true it was not for him, you, or me to state who is or isn’t apart of a “Church of Christ.” To do is arrogant and wrong! 2) Unify all christians under one church (Christ’s church) by saying this he seperated his church from another because of a rule that is not mentioned in the bible but is Church of Christ doctrine (A manmade doctrine). Which would indicate that the name “Church of Christ” are just play on words and the name of but another christian denomination.
    1)God
    2)Jesus Christ
    3)Be nice
    And thats it!

  186. Well then could you tell me, is Matthew 28:19 an acceptable baptism or only Peter’s baptism of Acts 2:38?

    Secondly HI does the CoC you attend teach that all others are unsaved and that all need to be baptized in a CoC church or their baptism is invalid?

    Have you studied how Cornelius was saved in Acts 10?

  187. The New Testament only speaks of one church. Jesus said he would build his church Matt. 16:18. Baptize belivers, Acts 2:38 make up the church, or the body of Christ Eph. 1:22 -23. Jesus refers to His church as His body Eph 5:23. Also in the New Testament Christ is refered to as the Bridegroom and the church as his bride John3:29 and Rev 21:9. He’s coming back for his bride and if you are not apart of his bride he will not take you back to heaven with him. It’s really that simple.

  188. I will ask you then,

    Well then could you tell me, is Matthew 28:19 an acceptable baptism or only Peter’s baptism of Acts 2:38?

    Secondly A. Mayes does the CoC you attend teach that all others are unsaved and that all need to be baptized in a CoC church or their baptism is invalid?

    Have you studied how Cornelius was saved in Acts 10?

  189. Jesus said he would build his church Matt 16:18. The apostle Peter preached the first gospel sermon according to Acts chapters 1 & 2. 3,000 souls (people) were add to it. God added them to his church Acts 2:47. There was no choice of churches then, there was only one to be a member of. God does not think on our level of understanding so we must be submissive to him. Go to your encyclopedia and you can learn about all the other churches, none of which are listed anywhere in the Bible.

  190. Show me that building in the Bible? I see the body talked about and I see the early church meeting in homes of the members but I don’t see authorization for a sign or a building!

    So based on the home meetings and the lack of signage at those meetings and lack of a dedicated building I’d say the church does not exist as it did back in Acts!

    And please re-quote that greeting again in Romans where God suddenly has punctuation issues with a proper name! So tell me did the translator of the KJV make the mistake or was the mistake in the Greek also that the proper name of Churches of Christ was spelled churches of Christ? Or could it be that he was talking about people????? and not a building!!!

    Actually on second thought keep the argument it shows others that you are a denomination with an unwritten creed as opposed to a written creed!

    A denomination worshiping a God who can not punctuate his own Holy Scripture, judging others for not following commands while you yourselves do the same thing ignoring the fact that you should be meeting in homes and that you should not even have a sign out front and that you claim the Holy Kiss greeting you pull from was only a local custom, yet it says greet each other how again?

    I have heard it said over and over again by Johnny Robertson and his followers quoting people saying “that you can’t judge you can’t judge” vs. their comments that they are doing “righteous judgment”, but when it says don’t judge it says don’t judge hypocritically and that if you do you will reap whatever you judge!!!

    Now based on the fact that you have judged others salvation because they do not keep all the commands, what reaping will you do if your judgment of others following the commands of God is right or wrong but at the same time you have failed in one small little area of commands yourselves?

    Answer: You will reap the salvation you wagered in the judgment!

    OPEN YOUR EYES!!!

  191. HOW DOES THE CHURCH OF CHRIST GET AROUND
    THE VERSE THAT SAYS “IN THE FLESH DWELLETH NO GOOD
    THING”
    YOU CANNOT GET AROUND THE FACT THAT WE HAVE INHERITED ADAM’S NATURE THAT IS FALLEN AND IN
    TOTAL DEPRAVITY

  192. So much division among you!
    Here let me unite you all, from all your protestant denominations, or CofC…against me…
    Ready??
    Polygamy is an ACCEPTABLE form of marriage before God.

    Oh, before you start licking your lips, lets set the parameters of this horrible thing I’ve just said:
    I didn’t say it was the “smart” thing to do. You can point to Biblical examples where it caused strife.

    I also didn’t say it was a COMMANDMENT…I’m not FLDS.

    If you are CofC, you should “be silent where the scripture is silent”. And since I’m not an elder or deacon, the specific requirements for that office apply only there, or else should also all Christians be male, as an Elder or deacon?

    If you are NOT CofC, and you use instrumental music, you are also not to quote it not being “sanctioned” in the New Testament, since the CofC “instrumental worship” argument fits very well there as well.

    If you believe in using the Old Testament at all, then I point you to God’s directives in Leviticus for how a man should treat his second wife (why didn’t he just say ‘dont do it’ if it was a sin back then?), I point you to Jacob and David “A man after God’s own heart”. Oh and if you want to say “God loved David but not his ‘sin’ of polygamy”, why then when he chastised David or Bathsheba did he tell him “And I gave thee thy master’s house, and thy master’s wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.”. Was God saying he would cause David to sin? No indeed, my friends.

    Well there you go; something you can all agree on, that my position on polygamy (well let me specifically say polygyny, one man with multiple wives) IS ACCEPTABLE IN THE OLD TESTAMENT AND NOT CONDEMNED IN THE NEW (unlike divorce, homosexuality, etc etc).

    Have fun agreeing on something! Just be sure you bring your scriptures with you to prove it :-)

  193. Second to last paragraph let me correct I mean have fun agreeing with each other that you disagree with me…since I doubt I will get many “wow you’re right!” comments on this :-D

    For the record, I’m not a plant for “either side” I REALLY DO challenge you to tell me POLYGYNY, IN AND OF ITSELF, IS A SIN (when you can find NOWHERE in the Bible where that is the case). Oh and the sin of Solomon was that he allowed his foreign wives to turn him to foreign Gods…NOT that he had multiple wives. Again, not saying it’s IDEAL, just saying it’s not a sin IN AND OF ITSELF. Sola Scriptura!

  194. Gen 2:24 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.

    While a man is married to a woman does he move into his parents home again so he can leave it to add his second wife? Or is multiple wives covered under the same umbrella where Jesus says we are not to divorce except for fornication?

    WIL

    ps. JR don’t get to excited, I still do not believe in the concept of continual adultery, only that after divorce the ex-married partners have had sex and are not covered under the marriage covenant, thus they are adulterers at that moment.

  195. I AM TRUELY AMAZED AT WHAT I AM READING HERE! WHAT IS YOUR INTENT/MOTIVE FOR WHAT YOU WRITE? WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO PROVE? I AM A CONVERTED MEMBER OF THE LORD’S CHURCH, COC, AND HONESTLY AM OFFENDED BY WHAT MANY OF YOU WRITE. I AM FOR FREEDOM OF SPEECH, BUT WHAT IMPACT DOES YOUR MESSAGE HAVE ON ANITHER’S SALVATION? I CAME UPON THIS SITE WHILE SURFING THE NET AND WONDER WHAT A NON-CHRISTIAN GETS FROM THESE MESSAGES. TALK ABOUT DIVISION AND POSSIBLY BEING A STUBBLING BLOCK! I LEAVE THIS COMMENT WITH THE HOPE THAT WE ALL WILL FOCUS ON AND EVALUATE OURSELVES AND USING THE BIBLE AS OUR GUIDE, STRIVE FOR AN ETERNITY IN HEAVEN THROUGH THE BLOOD OF CHRIST.

  196. The real issue is the CoC’s belief that they are the only true group teaching the doctrine handed down to them from the original apostles, this is very unlikely.

    As for division our local radical CoC teach their doctrine brings unity while at the same time they defellowship with other CoC Churches the moment they disagree.

    Unity, that’s not unity, it’s isolation and intolerance! The CoC have split churches over carpet, kitchens, and any number of other petty issues because of the fear based theology that teaches if you deviate from what you are taught you go to hell.

    CoC Docterine issues I have, Eldership requires you not only be married to one wife but the moment your wife dies you are no longer an Elder. Bible shows 24 Elders in Heaven with no wives since marriage will no longer be in effect. Thus the CoC teach God is a hypocrite with rules that change.

    Music, or no music and if you do you go to hell. Jesus tells a story about the prodigal son’s return and the father celebrates and the other son hears what???? MUSIC! Again God can have music but we can’t, again the hypocritical nature of God is shown through CoC teachings.

    Divorce you must return to your former spouse or go to hell because you must restore before you can be forgiven. Thus divorces is more evil then murder since a murderer can be forgiven but not be required to raise the dead, where as divorced people must DIVORCE their second wife/husband and return to the former partner or they are going to hell because until they return and set things back as they were before the divorce they have not truly repented and thus are still in sin. Yet the only talk about remarriage to a spouse is found in deut. where God forbids returning to a former spouse.

    The Thief and Cornelius have relationship with God before baptism or no baptism in the case of the thief, yet the CoC teaches that Christ has no power to forgive sins unless water is involved. Thus water has more power then Jesus because without water there is no salvation.

    Now if the CoC you attend does not teach extremism then you are not part of this, if however you are part of the hypercons who teach that they are the only ones saved then know this Jennifer, God clearly teaches that if you Judge and are failing in the same area of your Judgment you will reap what you sow. If you sow at a salvation level and you are wrong about those you point to and say you are not saved because you do not hold all the commandments and you yourselves are also failing in even the slightest way you are going to reap the wager you placed!

    So someone will be going to hell, either the hypercons who have sat upon God’s throne and declared all others unsaved, or they themselves because they judged hypocritically at a salvation level will lose their own salvation for breaking the command to not judge hypocritically.

    So the only one who wins is Satan because if we are right and you are wrong about your salvation judgments then you go to hell, if you are right we go, either way Satan gets to take part of us with him.

    So since it was impossible for the Jews to keep all the commands in the Old Testament do you really think you can keep all of them in the New?

  197. Jennifer,
    We are saved by grace. Not by works, lest we should boast. That includes trying to peg our salvation on “obedience”, which is something that we should seek and strive for out of love but in the terms of Robertson, Oldfield and their “Church of Christ”, has become an obligation… and that’s something that cannot possibly be satisfied 100%. We are only human, and thank God that by His grace alone we are saved!

    Robertson, Oldfield and their kind have come preaching another Christ, and seek to divide and separate the sincere followers of Christ with stumbling blocks of legalism.

  198. Jennifer,

    Exactly, why are you truly amazed at what you are reading here? Exactly, what things have truly amazed you? Why does the intent/motive matter? Is the truth, the truth no matter what the intent/motive is? Does the Bible tell us to refute error? Is men supposed to sharpen men as if iron sharpens iron? Could they have the truth to prove? Will the truth set men free? Exactly, why are you a converted member of the COC? Why did you join the COC? What made you switch to the COC? Does the truth offend you? Should people stop telling the truth because the truth offends you? Should people stop teaching the truth because the truth can cause division and could be a stumbling block to others? Should people stop teaching the truth because a non-Christian might get a bad feeling? It is my hope that the COC will focus on and evaluate the COC and will use the Bible as the COC guide, striving for an eternity in Heaven through the blood of Christ. It is also my hope that the COC will start to rightly divide the Word of Truth.

    Tom

  199. There is one Lord, one faith and one baptism. However, the body of Christ is made up of many members and we do not all have the same function except to preach Jesus Christ and Him crucified as the atonement for sin once and for all. I am not a member of the “church of Christ” [denomination as it is clearly seen by the rest of the world] but I am a born again believer who loves God. I am a worshiper and I worship God with instruments. Christ came not to condemn the law but to fulfill it. I have seen the miracle hand of God move through praise and worship and wouldn’t have it any other way. I am not a member of a denomination, I am a member of the Body of Christ and we believe in the word of God in its entirety. Please stop trying to dissect and carve out niche’s. A friend lost her mother who had previously left a local church of Christ. They condemned her mother to hell because she left. That was not their place. Only God had the final decision of where she was going to spend eternity. That is the kind of rhetoric that gets coc’s classified as cults. Quite frankly, the only person that I have come in contact with that is a member of a COC and not cultish in his/her speech is one of my closest friends who loves Christ with all of his heart and committed to the work of the kingdom of God. I admire his stance and we have a great time fellow-shipping. He has never once told me that I was going to hell because I do not attend his coc.

    God is not even concerned with these issues. He’s concerned with your soul. Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God? Do you believe that he died for your sins? It’s a faith walk through the blood of Jesus Christ. Christ is sitting at the right hand of the father and sent his Holy Spirit to be our guide and teacher. We cannot judge the salvation of another. Yes we will know them by their fruits but God has people established everywhere for the sole purpose of leading others to Christ. Could you imagine how many people would be lost and going to hell if the only “true believer’s” were located in certain buildings of worship throughout the world?

    God is not that narrow minded. I am the child of a Holy Ghost filled preacher. I have seen God use my father again and again to help bring deliverance into the lives of others. I have seen him walk as a man of integrity and faith. You mean to tell me because He’s not an elder in the CoC he’s going to hell? Are the followers of the doctrine of the CoC truly that brainwashed to believe that they are the only one’s going to heaven? God has proven himself to me more times than I can count. His mercy and grace has abounded in my life and it is because of his tender mercies that I am not consumed. Great is his faithfulness. I wouldn’t dare serve a God who says that only certain people at a certain house of worship will make it in to the kingdom. As long as we have breath in our bodies and can call out to him to ask for forgiveness and accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior can make it in to spend eternity with him. Don’t sell God and yourself short. He’s bigger than a doctrine originated by man’s falling out with another. God is God and will always be God. God is God and let every man be a liar. We can change like the wind but His word standeth sure for all eternity. Stop focusing on who is going to what church and focus on what God has instructed you to do as a believer. God has believer’s everywhere and they are working God’s kingdom process and not yours.

    Go in God and be Blessed.

  200. Amen Tara! But as wonderful as your words are and very true, know that you walk the ground where only scripture quoted will be considered as a valid entry, and also that if you do chapter and verse here, the scripture you quote will be seen from their denominational view and invalidated if it does not line up with their belief systems.

    I’m still waiting for someone to show me where the Angel tells Cornelius that he and his family will be saved, Peter says it happened that way, but it is not in Acts 10! But to get the puzzle to fit correctly that has to be ignored.

  201. WOL
    Ac 10:1 ¶ There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
    2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
    3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
    4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
    5 And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter:
    6 He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.

    REMEMBER,
    he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.

    Ac 10:34 ¶ Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
    35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
    36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)

    HAS PETER TOLD THEM TO DO ANYTHING YET?

    Ac 10:37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
    38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
    39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
    40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;

    HOW ABOUT NOW? NOOOOOO KEEP GOING…

    Ac 10:41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
    42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
    43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
    44 ¶ While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
    45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
    46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
    47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

    GET READY, I THINK PETER IS ABOUT TO TELL THEM SOMETHING THEY MUST DO…..

    Ac 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

    REMEMBER WHAT THE ANGEL SAID?
    “he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.”

    WHAT DID PETER TELL THEM?
    “And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.”

  202. I do not have time to read all of these posts but from what I have read I am glad that God is my judge. I spent 35 years in a conservative “Church of Christ”. I have not attended any congregation that had the exact same belief about every issue. They have each independently chosen to do things in the manner they have determined to be correct. Unfortunately the “church” leaves very little room or excuse for error. Where does it draw the line? If one congregation has decided it is wrong to allow weddings in the building does that imply that those that allow it are now not biblical and are hell bound? If it’s wrong it’s wrong. That’s what has always been beat into my head. It’s insanity. I actually asked someone in “the Church” if the previous elders that had allowed weddings in the building were going to hell and they said they would have to ask the preacher about that! It’s Insane and ignorant. And there are so many differences like, offering the lord’s supper on Sunday evening or if everyone should take it both times. I am actually on the other side looking back now. My family was disfellowshipped this year. I had been a part of that with other families but until it happened to me I couldn’t see how ridiculous and repulsive this action is. I know there are those on here that will no doubt defend the act of “disfellowshipping” someone but there is nothing Christian about what happened to us and it is going on all through the “church”. I will never step foot in another so called “Church of Christ”. I even attended a Church of Christ school. My family was at church every time the door was open. I am so thankful they kicked us out. What a blessing! Now I can find a Church where people are happy! Where Grace and love are preached. To worship with people that understand they don’t have all the answers but are striving to do God’s will and aren’t splitting hairs over ridiculous trivial topics. Thank you Eastend!

  203. On January 29, 2009 at 3:57 pm Tara Kelley Said:

    I am not a member of the “church of Christ”

    WELL TARA, IF YOU AREN’T A MEMBER OF THE CHURCH OF CHRIST THEN HE IS NOT YOUR LORD……..

    Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
    23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

    TARA SAID,
    I am a worshiper and I worship God with instruments.

    MORE PROOF THAT YOU’RE NOT IN THE LORD’S CHURCH. THERE IS NO AUTHORIZATIN FOR MECH. INSTR. OF MUSIC IN THE NEW TESTAMENT……

    Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

    Col 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

    TARA SAID,
    Christ came not to condemn the law but to fulfill it.

    CHRIST CHANGED THE LAW……..

    Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

    TARA SAID,
    I have seen the miracle hand of God move through praise and worship and wouldn’t have it any other way.

    PAUL SAYS MIRACLES HAVE CEASED……

    1Co 13:8 ¶ Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
    9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
    10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

    TARA SAID,
    They condemned her mother to hell because she left.

    DID “THEY” CONDEMN HER OR DID SHE CONDEMN HERSELF?

    Ro 8:1 ¶ There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    TARA SAID,
    He has never once told me that I was going to hell because I do not attend his coc.

    IF HE HAS A COC THEN HE IS NOT IN THE LORD’S CHURCH EITHER.

    Mt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

    TARA SAID,
    Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God? Do you believe that he died for your sins? It’s a faith walk through the blood of Jesus Christ.

    IT’S NOT A “FAITH ONLY” WALK TARA……

    Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

    Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

    TARA SAID,
    His mercy and grace has abounded in my life and it is because of his tender mercies that I am not consumed.

    SOUNDS LIKE YOU MAY BE CONSUMED TARA…….

    1Jo 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

    TARA SAID,
    God is God and let every man be a liar. We can change like the wind but His word standeth sure for all eternity. Stop focusing on who is going to what church and focus on what God has instructed you to do as a believer.

    EVERY MAN THAT TEACHES ANOTHER DOCTRINE IS A LIAR, SUCH AS BAPTIST, METHODIST, CATHOLIC, ETC.ETC.ETC.
    AND IS ACCURSED……..

    Ga 1:6 ¶ I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
    7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
    8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
    9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

    WHICH FAITH ARE YOU CONTENDING FOR TARA? WITH ALL THE SCRIPTURE YOU GAVE TO BACK UP YOUR STATEMENTS IT’S HARD TO TELL…..

    Jude 1:3 ¶ Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

    YOUR BEGINNING STATEMENT SAYS A LOT…….
    There is one Lord, one faith and one baptism. “However,” IT’S AMAZING HOW ONE WORD CAN DO SO MUCH HARM……

    GOD TOLD ADAM, Ge 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

    “Ge 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

    ONE LITTLE THREE LETTER WORD “NOT”
    IMAGINE WHAT A BIGGER WORD MIGHT DO “HOWEVER”

    Re 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
    19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

  204. On February 1, 2009 at 2:48 pm Chris Knight Said:
    Miracles haven’t ceased.

    Paul is telling us that in the presence of love that miracles are not a necessary component of belief.

    ABOVE IS WHAT CHRIS KNIGHT IS TELLING US THAT PAUL IS TELLING US.

    THIS IN FACT, IS WHAT PAUL IS TELLING US.

    1Co 13:8 ¶ Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
    9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
    10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

  205. And the evidence that we know that which is perfect, is if we love perfectly. Or desire to love perfectly anyway.

    Are we doing that? Can we sincerely say that we have loved even our enemies, which in my mind would be MUCH greater than any miracle?

    It’s hard to say that there is perfect love, when some have declared it their sworn duty to “defeat and destroy” others.

    I have seen too many miracles.

    I have seen not nearly enough love.

    I would rather have seen much more love and no miracles at all.

  206. On January 31, 2009 at 3:33 pm BCV Said:

    On January 29, 2009 at 3:57 pm Tara Kelley Said:

    I am not a member of the “church of Christ”

    WELL TARA, IF YOU AREN’T A MEMBER OF THE CHURCH OF CHRIST THEN HE IS NOT YOUR LORD……..

    We both know that she ment the denomination not the body, but thanks for a perfect example of the mentality that comes with the church of judgment! AKA Hypercon CoC.

    Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
    23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

    The above means that he is and you are not the judge of humanity! NOW GET OFF HIS THRONE AND LET HIM RULE!

    TARA SAID,
    I am a worshiper and I worship God with instruments.

    MORE PROOF THAT YOU’RE NOT IN THE LORD’S CHURCH. THERE IS NO AUTHORIZATIN FOR MECH. INSTR. OF MUSIC IN THE NEW TESTAMENT……

    And there is nothing written against instruments either, so be silent where the Bible is silent! Or you could explain how the prodigal son returns to a party with MUSIC that offends the other son. So while God is throwing a party for a returned lost one you are condemning his followers for celebration with the same music. Or is God just hypocritical?


    Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

    Spirit, SPIRIT??? What spirit would that be, surely not the Holy Spirit, I thought he was dead?!?! At least according to CoC doctrine!

    Col 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

    Do you brush your teeth in his name, or order food from a menu in his name? Hey it says whatsoever ye do! No??? Well doesn’t that make you a command breaker?

    TARA SAID,
    Christ came not to condemn the law but to fulfill it.

    CHRIST CHANGED THE LAW……..

    Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

    Ah yes Hebrews the best chapter to twist for hypercon CoCers, Hebrews is all about returning to the Jewish practice of sacrifice, the law that changed was that Jesus was the final sacrifice and thus no other is needed. Jesus has always been in authority has he not?

    TARA SAID,
    I have seen the miracle hand of God move through praise and worship and wouldn’t have it any other way.

    PAUL SAYS MIRACLES HAVE CEASED……

    1Co 13:8 ¶ Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
    9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
    10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

    Ah yes the perfect, tell me when did Paul own a copy of the complete Bible? I find it VERY INTERESTING that you left out the passage that says face to face, tell me how many times did the Bible reference face to face when talking about a book, scroll or other written item? Answer ZERO NADA ZIP, Paul is not talking about this world he is talking about when we would know as God knows us, how many hairs are on your body? What you don’t know, God has then numbered!

    That passage is totally misused by you, you should rethink this doctrine that has taught you that this passage is talking about the end of things because the Bible has arrived. The Bible did not exist for another 300 years! You need to change your blog name, Bible Chapter and Misuse of Scripture would be a better choice!

    TARA SAID,
    They condemned her mother to hell because she left.

    DID “THEY” CONDEMN HER OR DID SHE CONDEMN HERSELF?

    Ro 8:1 ¶ There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    SPIRIT???????????? What spirit the spirit is in a book is it not???? LOL Oh man I can’t wait to stand before the throne and see your face when the truth is finally shown you!

    TARA SAID,
    He has never once told me that I was going to hell because I do not attend his coc.

    IF HE HAS A COC THEN HE IS NOT IN THE LORD’S CHURCH EITHER.

    Mt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

    The rock that he will build his church on is the truth that was spoken about him being who he is! Not Peter!

    TARA SAID,
    Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God? Do you believe that he died for your sins? It’s a faith walk through the blood of Jesus Christ.

    IT’S NOT A “FAITH ONLY” WALK TARA……

    Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

    Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

    Ah so if I do enough works I don’t need Jesus death then? Um I think you need to find some balance, yes we do good for others, but we are not justified only because of the works lets any man should boast or did I misread that?

    TARA SAID,
    His mercy and grace has abounded in my life and it is because of his tender mercies that I am not consumed.

    SOUNDS LIKE YOU MAY BE CONSUMED TARA…….

    1Jo 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

    Ah yes let me be the first to say that this passage has absolutely nothing to do with her above text! But it does reveal your judgmental spirit! Tell me what does God tell you about hypocritical judgment of others? And sense you have decided to play poker with God and issue an all in over salvation what happens if you have judged incorrectly at a salvation level? Answer is you will reap at the same level you have sown!

    TARA SAID,
    God is God and let every man be a liar. We can change like the wind but His word standeth sure for all eternity. Stop focusing on who is going to what church and focus on what God has instructed you to do as a believer.

    EVERY MAN THAT TEACHES ANOTHER DOCTRINE IS A LIAR, SUCH AS BAPTIST, METHODIST, CATHOLIC, ETC.ETC.ETC.
    AND IS ACCURSED……..

    Ga 1:6 ¶ I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
    7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
    8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
    9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

    Funny I don’t recall reading about those churches being an issue back then, I do read where the Jews tried to re-institute circumcision and that Gnosticism did cause issues.

    WHICH FAITH ARE YOU CONTENDING FOR TARA? WITH ALL THE SCRIPTURE YOU GAVE TO BACK UP YOUR STATEMENTS IT’S HARD TO TELL…..

    Jude 1:3 ¶ Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

    YOUR BEGINNING STATEMENT SAYS A LOT…….
    There is one Lord, one faith and one baptism. “However,” IT’S AMAZING HOW ONE WORD CAN DO SO MUCH HARM……

    GOD TOLD ADAM, Ge 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

    “Ge 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

    ONE LITTLE THREE LETTER WORD “NOT”
    IMAGINE WHAT A BIGGER WORD MIGHT DO “HOWEVER”

    Re 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
    19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

    So should not all the churches other then the CoC denomination all be suffering with plagues? That is what the passage says and what you are suggesting are you not? Oh I forget the God you serve has no power now, it is only man’s mind that can reason scripture since the Holy Spirit has no power to comfort or help except with the spirit’s sword.

    2 Tim 3:55having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.

    Remember BCV if you miss only one command once and are sitting in judgment on your fellow believers over their failures you are going to reap those judgments!

  207. Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
    Spirit, SPIRIT??? What spirit would that be, surely not the Holy Spirit, I thought he was dead?!?! At least according to CoC doctrine!

    – I heard this quoted out of context by Johnny ( again ) and put on those he disagree with…

    Even their so-called truth in doctrine and practice varies…just surf the web/blogs and you will see this yourslelf.

  208. My brother is a member of the CoC. According to him, even though I’ve been a bible reading church attending SAVED and water baptized christian for more than 30 years. I’m still going to hell. ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

  209. On February 3, 2009 at 8:50 am walkinginlove Said:
    We both know that she ment the denomination not the body,

    BUT WIL, TO YOU ALL IT’S ALL THE SAME…RIGHT? YOU WOULDN’T CONDEMN A DENOMINATION.

    WIL SAID,
    The above means that he is and you are not the judge of humanity!

    Joh 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

    WIL SAID,
    And there is nothing written against instruments either, so be silent where the Bible is silent!

    THERE IS NOTHING WRITTEN THAT SAYS YOU CAN’T SERVE ICE CREAM AND CAKE ON THE LORD’S TABLE EITHER, SO ARE YOU WILLING TO DO THAT ALSO?

    WIL SAID,
    What spirit would that be, surely not the Holy Spirit, I thought he was dead?

    1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

    ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT…….EXAMPLE,

    Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

    Heb 8:4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:

    WIL SAID,
    Do you brush your teeth in his name, or order food from a menu in his name?

    YES WE HAVE AUTHORITY TO TAKE CARE OF OUR DAILY NEEDS, AND THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT “IN JESUS NAME” MEANS. ARE YOU IN A CHURCH THAT WEARS HIS NAME OR WORSHIPS IN HIS NAME OR ACCORDING TO HIS AUTHORITY?

    WIL SAID,
    Jesus has always been in authority has he not?

    YES HE IS,
    Mt 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

    AND HE HAS NEVER AUTHORIZED MANMADE CHURCHES.

    WIL SAID,
    tell me how many times did the Bible reference face to face when talking about a book, scroll or other written item?

    Jas 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
    24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
    25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

    WIL SAID,
    LOL Oh man I can’t wait to stand before the throne and see your face when the truth is finally shown you!

    Joh 17:17 ¶ Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

    HOW MANY OF YOUR MANMADE CHURCHES ARE IN THE TRUTH?
    IN YOUR OWN WORDS….ZERO NADA ZIP,

    WIL SAID,
    The rock that he will build his church on is the truth that was spoken about him being who he is! Not Peter!

    FOR ONCE WE AGREE, SO DOES THIS MEAN WE SHOULDN’T NAME THE CHURCH ST. PETER’S CATHEDRIAL?

    I DON’T THINK JOHN WOULD APPRECIATE THE CHURCH BEING NAMED AFTER HIM EITHER………….

    Ac 13:25 And as John fulfilled his course, he said, Whom think ye that I am? I am not he. But, behold, there cometh one after me, whose shoes of his feet I am not worthy to loose.

    WIL SAID,
    Tell me what does God tell you about hypocritical judgment of others?

    HYPOCRITICAL JUDGMENT? YOU MEAN LIKE TELLING SOMONE THAT IT’S WRONG TO JUDGE? ARE YOU JUDGING ME WIL?

    WIL SAID,
    Funny I don’t recall reading about those churches being an issue back then,

    YOU WERE WARNED……..
    Mt 7:15 ¶ Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

    Mt 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

    Ga 1:6 ¶ I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
    7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
    8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

    2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
    14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
    15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

    WIL SAID,
    it is only man’s mind that can reason scripture since the Holy Spirit has no power to comfort or help except with the spirit’s sword.

    Ac 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

    DID THESE PEOPLE SAY, WAIT A MINUTE PETER, WE CAN’T DO ANYTHING TO SAVE OURSELVES, THE HOLY SPIRIT HAS TO DO EVERYTHING FOR US? NOOOOOOOO…….THIS SAYS THEY RECEIVED HIS WORD. SOMETHING YOU SAY YOU CAN’T DO. AND THEN THEY WERE BAPTIZED. SOMETHING YOU SAY YOU DON’T HAVE TO DO.

    Ac 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

  210. I have a question…

    For all the condemnation of “false religion” coming from the hyper-legalist “Church of Christ”…

    …how do we know that the very same “Church of Christ” is a TRUE religion?

    What is it about them that differentiates the “Church of Christ” from all other denominations?

    Simply saying “we have the TRUTH” does not count. Because just about every religion, sect, and cult throughout human history has also claimed to be in possession of “the TRUTH”.

    On a level playing field, there is nothing remarkably different at all between these “Church of Christ” preachers, and the most radical fundamentalist clerics of Islam.

    Others have even suggested that the actions of Johnny Robertson and James Oldfield are more in keeping with the Taliban and the sharia government of Iran than they are with anything pertaining to Christianity in America.

    So… what makes the “Church of Christ” something so TRUTHFUL and sincere, that I or anyone else should lean an ear and take seriously what they have to say?

    Why should anyone believe the “Church of Christ” is the real deal when every other religion is also claiming the same thing, and would also likely condemn the “Church of Christ” as being “false religion” as well?

    Let me put it this way: how can the “Church of Christ” convince me or anyone else, that it has something that nobody else can claim to have?

    I’ll await an answer on this.

  211. On February 3, 2009 at 1:56 pm BCV Said:

    On February 3, 2009 at 8:50 am walkinginlove Said:
    We both know that she ment the denomination not the body,

    BUT WIL, TO YOU ALL IT’S ALL THE SAME…RIGHT? YOU WOULDN’T CONDEMN A DENOMINATION.

    That’s not my job, I leave that to God and the Spirit. I do point to scriptures that others seem to ignore, like sowing and reaping, something the CoC has totally ignored in their lack of apparent fear of the consequences. I am not pointing them out for my health or benefit only to make sure that you completely understand the game you are playing with God.


    WIL SAID,
    The above means that he is and you are not the judge of humanity!

    Joh 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

    I’m sorry Lord I did not realize it was you who was doing the judging, you after all Jesus have the right and full knowledge of a mans heart, I do not so please forgive me of my sins in that area. Oh wait my mistake I thought you were the savior since you were judging as God would judge with full knowledge of another’s heart.


    WIL SAID,
    And there is nothing written against instruments either, so be silent where the Bible is silent!

    THERE IS NOTHING WRITTEN THAT SAYS YOU CAN’T SERVE ICE CREAM AND CAKE ON THE LORD’S TABLE EITHER, SO ARE YOU WILLING TO DO THAT ALSO?

    If that was all I had to use and it was either that or nothing I would rather celebrate and honor what was done for me then allow a letter of the law to stop it. But then again I actually believe Jesus when he spoke that he wanted mercy and not sacrifice.


    WIL SAID,
    What spirit would that be, surely not the Holy Spirit, I thought he was dead?

    1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

    ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT…….EXAMPLE,

    Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

    Heb 8:4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:

    1 Cor 12:13 ties back to John 7:37-39
    37In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

    38He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

    39(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

    Thus your references in Hebrews are not speaking of the Holy Spirit as 1 Cor 12:13 does but of Christ’s sacrifice that makes animal sacrifice unnecessary.

    WIL SAID,
    Do you brush your teeth in his name, or order food from a menu in his name?

    YES WE HAVE AUTHORITY TO TAKE CARE OF OUR DAILY NEEDS, AND THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT “IN JESUS NAME” MEANS. ARE YOU IN A CHURCH THAT WEARS HIS NAME OR WORSHIPS IN HIS NAME OR ACCORDING TO HIS AUTHORITY?

    I am more concerned with the inside of the cup then the embroidery on the outside of a man made building, you see the buildings are all man made brick and mortar but the body of Christ are the people who seek after him. So I am not in a Church building but in the body. There is no authorization for buildings at all much less the signs out in front.


    WIL SAID,
    Jesus has always been in authority has he not?

    YES HE IS,
    Mt 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

    AND HE HAS NEVER AUTHORIZED MANMADE CHURCHES.

    So when are you going to start the demolition process on the buildings so we can go back to meeting in homes like they did in the original church?


    WIL SAID,
    tell me how many times did the Bible reference face to face when talking about a book, scroll or other written item?

    Jas 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
    24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
    25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

    Perfect is an adjective it is not the law of liberty, as I posted on my blog it could have been called green instead of perfect thus they do not tie together as you are attempting to twist them, nice try Johnny! BTW I saw your broadcast about this and you were just as wrong then!

    So how many times is ‘face to face” used to describe looking at a book Johnny? You have a PC program go count them and verify my count of zero!


    WIL SAID,
    LOL Oh man I can’t wait to stand before the throne and see your face when the truth is finally shown you!

    Joh 17:17 ¶ Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

    Amen!

    HOW MANY OF YOUR MANMADE CHURCHES ARE IN THE TRUTH?
    IN YOUR OWN WORDS….ZERO NADA ZIP,

    True, they all err in some part because they see in part just as you do, you are blind to the danger of wagering salvation in judgment are you not? Go ahead lets see you do a bible study on sowing and reaping. I would love to see you actually understand that when you risk salvation by judgment of salvation you risk the level you judge at. I would rather see you not pay that price nor the followers who are also being led down into this trap!


    WIL SAID,
    The rock that he will build his church on is the truth that was spoken about him being who he is! Not Peter!

    FOR ONCE WE AGREE, SO DOES THIS MEAN WE SHOULDN’T NAME THE CHURCH ST. PETER’S CATHEDRIAL?

    Technically there is no authorization for buildings or a sign in front, the original church met in peoples homes did they not?

    I DON’T THINK JOHN WOULD APPRECIATE THE CHURCH BEING NAMED AFTER HIM EITHER………….

    Ac 13:25 And as John fulfilled his course, he said, Whom think ye that I am? I am not he. But, behold, there cometh one after me, whose shoes of his feet I am not worthy to loose.

    Well at least one John had a good handle on the order of things and his importance in that order!


    WIL SAID,
    Tell me what does God tell you about hypocritical judgment of others?

    HYPOCRITICAL JUDGMENT? YOU MEAN LIKE TELLING SOMONE THAT IT’S WRONG TO JUDGE? ARE YOU JUDGING ME WIL?

    Good non answer, so you are not even willing to admit to yourself that judgment of something when you are also failing will cost you the level of your judgment, thus if you judge others to be going to hell for not holding to ALL the commands and you fail at one small item you have risked hell itself in the judgment and that is the level you will reap if you are wrong, thus Satan wins one way or the other, he gets you for being human and failing to be perfect, or you somehow manage to be perfect and are right and thus we get the ticket to hell. Being that all have sinned and come short would you say that your ability to be perfect is likely?


    WIL SAID,
    Funny I don’t recall reading about those churches being an issue back then,

    YOU WERE WARNED……..
    Mt 7:15 ¶ Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

    Yes I know about them, I see what appears to be one based on his fruit every Sunday night at 8:30 and Thursday Nights at 9 or 10. I say what appears to be because I am not God and do not know the full truth of your real condition.


    Mt 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

    And the Jews were doing just that were they not because they were allowing a money to change hands and thus dishonoring their fathers, so how do you honor your father?

    Ga 1:6 ¶ I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
    7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
    8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

    And the moment I see someone advocating a return to circumcision as part of the covenant I will be ready for them!
    Gal 5:2Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all.

    2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
    14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
    15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

    There are many lights in the area, can we not know them by their fruits?

    Luke 6:43″No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. 44Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers. 45The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks.

    Now if a man uses gossip on TV to discredit others and sow discord, and also falsely hides his true affiliation, thus lying, and plots the use of a minor to temp others to sin and from what Chris Knight tells me on his blog falsely uses circles to block the private parts of dancers in a church when in fact they were not showing their underwear how should we judge those fruits when comparing it to what God says:

    Proverbs 6:16 There are six things the LORD hates,
    seven that are detestable to him:

    17 haughty eyes,
    a lying tongue,
    hands that shed innocent blood,

    18 a heart that devises wicked schemes,
    feet that are quick to rush into evil,

    19 a false witness who pours out lies
    and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers.

    Compared to what God says in the above it would appear that the fruit from that tree is bad fruit!


    WIL SAID,
    it is only man’s mind that can reason scripture since the Holy Spirit has no power to comfort or help except with the spirit’s sword.

    Ac 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

    DID THESE PEOPLE SAY, WAIT A MINUTE PETER, WE CAN’T DO ANYTHING TO SAVE OURSELVES, THE HOLY SPIRIT HAS TO DO EVERYTHING FOR US? NOOOOOOOO…….THIS SAYS THEY RECEIVED HIS WORD. SOMETHING YOU SAY YOU CAN’T DO. AND THEN THEY WERE BAPTIZED. SOMETHING YOU SAY YOU DON’T HAVE TO DO.

    Ac 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

    Yes many who was part of the killers of Christ did in fact take Peter’s words and felt an emotional response, you know that emotion you say others can’t have, as they realized they had killed God and that Peter was offering them an opportunity using the Lavitical practices of washing before contacting the sacrifice, thus making the transition a natural one that would not offer a stumbling block to them. They realized they were going from killers of Christ to priests of Christ and that was a very good deal.

    As for them doing nothing, no but they had to have their hearts pricked and I would suggest that the Holy Spirit was involved with that pricking!

    Or are you going to suggest that Leviticus yearly atonement had nothing to do with baptism being used as a tool to transition them?

  212. I have a question. Why is it Johnny and others, not all, who attend the cofC denomination when talking about baptism they only point out Acts 2 but you never see them point out Acts 10. Perhaps because it shows God does give the Holy Spirit before someone is baptized.

  213. On February 3, 2009 at 9:46 pm Chris Knight Said:

    Let me put it this way: how can the “Church of Christ” convince me or anyone else, that it has something that nobody else can claim to have?

    Mr 4:23 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.

  214. On February 3, 2009 at 11:27 pm walkinginlove Said:
    So how many times is ‘face to face” used to describe looking at a book Johnny?

    WIL,
    DID THE HOLY SPIRIT REVEAL THIS TO YOU?

  215. but you never see them point out Acts 10.

    Oh, they’ve managed to twist things around to explain this in a way that jives with their doctrine. You know they are masters at doing this. Except of course, for:

    Feet Washing
    Greeting one another with a holy kiss
    Christian communism
    Selling earthly goods to donate to the church
    Meeting every single day
    Meeting in houses rather than buildings
    Women’s head coverings
    Unity
    Slavery
    Fasting
    Elders anointing the sick with oil
    Laying on of hands

    For some reason, these get laid by the wayside.

    (Thanks to Fideism for the list)

  216. “Mr 4:23 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.”

    I once worked with a girl who was born without ears.

    Is she lost to Hell because she has no ears to hear, and is not even a man to begin with?

  217. On February 4, 2009 at 3:16 pm BCV Said:

    On February 3, 2009 at 11:27 pm walkinginlove Said:
    So how many times is ‘face to face” used to describe looking at a book Johnny?

    WIL,
    DID THE HOLY SPIRIT REVEAL THIS TO YOU?

    As to if it is JR who is posting no, but I do see his teaching in your posts, so call it a guess.

    I do believe the Holy Spirit led me to study “face to face” as a phrase to see how it was used in other texts. It was only used when talking about another human or God himself.

    So if you are not Johnny then you post as he does. I hope I stumbled into whatever trap you were looking to spring.

    So how do you honor your father?

    Have you taken up the sowing and reaping study? Not to prove you are right but to seek the truth that is.

    Have you reread the atonement process and do you see the connections between Acts 2:38 and that processes? If not what makes you think they are not linked since both deal with purification before contact with the sin offering?

    And finally based on what I have posted why should I consider JR to be good fruit instead of defiling many with a bitter root against his father?

  218. I read some of the comments concerning the Church of Christ. It’s apparent that most of the bloggers have erred concerning scripture. For example BCV says “why should the COC claim to have something that nobody else have?” In answering that question, the COC does not make any claim, the scriptures tells us what we claim(or have) that no one else has. We read it, know it, understand it, and believe it. We know and believe that we have the gift of the Holy Ghost(Acts 2:38). But this gift is given to all who have HEARD the gospel(Matt. 7:24), BELIEVED the gospel(John 11:26), REPENTED(Luke 13:3), CONFESSED(Matt.10:32,33), been BAPTISED(Mark 16:16) for the REMISSION of his/her sins. An individual must be taught right in order to be saved. There are people who are just as sincere about their soul salvation, but are sincerely wrong.
    The issue is that the word of God is being rejected. The Truth will not change and neither can anyone change it because the word of God is settled(Ps. 119:89). I personally stand flat-footed on the word of God from the book of Genesis to the book of Revelation. This one book has changed my life and I’m convicted and commited to my Heavenly Father and my Savour Jesus through the apostles doctrine(Acts 2:42). My faith has been growing each and everyday I live. The Bible has taught me how to discern between truth and error. What we, the Church of Christ, mean by truth is looking at the examples, obeying the commandments, and understanding the necessary inferences of scripture. Studying the Bible wholelistically, word for word(II Tim. 2:15). To put it all in a nutshell, WE HAVE GOD’S WORD. Other religous organizations have a little, some, part, or most of God’s word. We do not treat God’s word like Burger King, Have it your way. We Have ALL of God’s word.
    Obey the gospel today. Life is too short, judgement is sure, hell is too hot, eternity is too long, and Heaven can be yours. Judgement day is coming(II Corin. 5:10). God is waiting. I’m not here to be radical, I’m just doing what Jesus has taught in His great commission(Matt.28:19,20). We all must be members of the one body(Eph. 4:4) according to the scriptures. Any other body is unscriptual(baptist, methodist, catholic, muslim, mormon, seven day adventist, jehovah witness, presbyterian, ame, cme, buddah, scientology, and many others that are not found in the scriptures). Oh yeah, don’t forget the unbelievers and/or atheists.
    God loves you and so do I.

    Respond or question,
    Reggie

  219. Hi Reggie,

    Thanks for the message, and for stopping by.

    First of all, I should tell you that “BCV” is “one of you”. He’s from a church of Christ in Virginia.

    Second, I should tell you that I agree with our last paragraph, except for your declaration of who is Scriptural (you) and who is not (everyone else). As has been shown on this blog time after time, you guys in the “hyperconservative” church of Christ have just as many chinks in your armor as the rest of us. I’ve posted the same list here twice of things that are clearly commanded in Scripture, but are not practiced in the churches of Christ.

    But don’t worry – this isn’t bad news. Why? Because it just means that you are just as dependent upon the grace of God as the rest of us – many of us are on your list of those you declared to be “unscriptural”.

    Congratulations! Your salvation depends upon the work of Jesus on the cross as much as the rest of us!

    And again, welcome.

  220. I just find it so incredible, that in spite of everything that is written about it in the New Testament about how Jesus came to free us from legalism, that some INSIST on legalism… and in the name of Christ, even!

    It is as if Christ died for nothing at all.

    Jesus did not die just to establish a “religion”. He did not clothe Himself with humanity in order to first and foremost set up a “church”. The real church is made of up all of those who believe in Him and His finished work, but that is not something we do for sake of a worldly corporate body of any kind.

    The hyper-legalist “Church of Christ” cult is determined to “unify” all Christians to its own interpretation of scripture. But these people have never stopped to ask themselves if their interpretation is even right to begin with!

    Ergo, they have put their faith in themselves and their own understanding. They have not put their faith in God at all.

    There can’t be much more “false” religion than that.

  221. Last I checked, Christ died for His church, not the baptist church or for islam or any other. Yes He died for all of us so that we might be added unto His church, again that would cancel out other churches. Let’s see what the bible has to say:

    (1 Cor. 1:10-13)

    10 Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11 For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe’s household, that there are contentions among you. 12 Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

    Clearly those with other names are divided and divided can not stand.

    I noticed fairly few of those who hold up to the divisional ideals rarely use scripture or if they do it is but one verse. Instead of using the bible and seeing what it says on matters most have decided to go with their “gut” feelings on the matters. Folks, this ought not be. I pray that those of you will read what the bible has to say and apply it to your everyday life instead of chaining your thoughts and cares to the pulpit.

  222. Scare Bear, the churches are NOT divided! That is something that only the “Church of Christ” cult – along with a very few others – is insinuating.

    I have worshiped in many Methodist churches, Baptist churches, even a few Pentecostal churches. Along with many that could not be said to be affiliated or “denominational” (for lack of a better word) at all.

    And it’s a funny thing: I don’t know of anyone from those churches, who would not fellowship with believers at another. I don’t know of anyone from any of the churches that I have been to, who look down or disapprove of others as being somehow “inferior” or “not truly Christian”.

    There may be differences of perspective, and it is along those lines that we have regular worship with others sharing that perspective… but guess what? THAT IS NOT A SIN! And that is NOT division either! And that is not a reason to dis-fellowship with other believers, either!

    I have given my testimony in Baptist churches, a Methodist church and a Presbyterian one, along with a few non-affiliated congregations. Nobody at any of them objected or decried it as being “invalid”. But if I were to try to do that at Martinsville Church of Christ, Johnny Robertson wouldn’t let me: because “Chris Knight is devilish” as he has publicly stated, and because “real Christians” aren’t supposed to have a testimony anyway, according to him.

    Go read Revelation: there were seven – count ‘em, SEVEN – churches that were obviously not all in accord with each other. And Christ still called them all “His church”. They all belonged to Him, no matter what problems some of them might have had.

    The churches at Corinth and Thessolonika were some of the most doctrinally screwed-up churches of the early Christian era. If Paul had the spirit of, say, Johnny Robertson and James Oldfield, he wouldn’t have even bothered to write to them! He would have instead posted stark-raving nutty rants all over Palestine and Asia Minor about how the Corinthians and Thessalonians “were not in the church that Christ ordained”. Instead we see loving, humble words from Paul to his fellow believers, that he loved and fully accepted in spite of whatever was going wrong with those churches.

    I defy anyone to tell me, that we see that same sweet and loving spirit in the words of Robertson and Oldfield.

    I can only conclude with this: that Christ did die for His church. But the “Church of Christ” that is represented so prominently in the local arena, is not the church that He died for at all. They are preaching another Christ.

    And if you do want to find the church that Christ is the head of, I can give you the names of any number of Baptist or Methodist or whatever churches that readily come to mind.

  223. And I would dare say that there are certainly “contentions” in this area…

    …but those contentions are only the product of the Church of Christ cult.

    If you want to stop the “contentions”, there’s only one way it can possibly happen:

    Johnny Robertson and James Oldfield must go back to Texas, where they came from. And never again harass the good people of south-central Virginia and north-central North Carolina.

  224. On February 4, 2009 at 10:24 pm Chris Knight Said:

    I once worked with a girl who was born without ears.

    Is she lost to Hell because she has no ears to hear, and is not even a man to begin with?

    Kris,
    Can she not understand?
    When you close your eyes and stop your ears, do you forget that 2+2=4?

  225. On February 7, 2009 at 12:04 am reggie Said:

    For example BCV says “why should the COC claim to have something that nobody else have?”

    You are mistaken Reggie, Chris Knight is the one that made that statement.

    And you are mistaken agaain if you’re saying you have the Holy Spirit literally dwelling in you, but I don’t think you are actually saying that seeing that you made this statememnt…….”The Bible has taught me how to discern between truth and error.”

  226. On February 8, 2009 at 3:46 pm Chris Knight Said:

    Go read Revelation: there were seven – count ‘em, SEVEN – churches that were obviously not all in accord with each other. And Christ still called them all “His church”. They all belonged to Him, no matter what problems some of them might have had.

    Is this what you are referring to Kris?

    Re 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
    5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

    Chris would say they didn’t have to do any of this.

    Re 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

    Again Chris would say they didn’t have to remain faithful.

    Re 2:15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.
    16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

    Chris would say, wait a minute whats wrong with the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, thats just as good as the Baptist or the Methodist doctrine.

    Re 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
    23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

    Again Chris would say now wait just a minute Lord you allow that jezebel to preach in the so called Methodist church.

    Re 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.

    Chris might say what do you mean strengthen the things which remain. That sounds like work, uh uh.

    Re 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

    Again Chris might say, Hey Lord it’s only a name.

    Re 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
    16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

    Chris would say, well if you expect me to do any works go ahead. I don’t believe in a works salvation.

  227. Whew! Chris Knight, you really have a problem with The Church. You have not and cannot prove that the Church of Christ is a cult. Help me to understand your religion because the more you say the more confusing it sounds. You run over here and then you run over there. It’s making me tired trying to keep up with you. You make statements based on speculation, not revelation. Allow me to help this discussion with scrip, not lip. The Church of Christ started on the first Pentecost after the accession of Jesus Christ. The Book of Acts gives the history of the early, first century Church. To be precise, chapter two of Acts gives the BEGINNING OF THE CHURCH. Jesus is the head of the Church(Col. 1:18). Jesus did come to establish the church(Matt. 16:18). He gave His blood for it(Acts 20:28). Isaiah gave prophecy concerning the church(Is. 2:2-4). I can continue on the Church, but now lets help you with the apostle Paul. In Paul’s epistles or letters he addressed the churches depending on the situation because of it being in it’s infant(early) stage. Paul, being an ambassador for Christ, was preaching the gospel and setting up THE CHURCH in different geographical locations. Paul did have the power or the authority to add or subtract anyone who was a member of the church. Paul loved the members, but hated the sinful lifestyle. God loves His children(members of the church), but hates the sinful living. I don’t have prove anything to anyone when it comes to doctrine. The scripture speaks for itself. Just allow the word of God to speak to us and not try to speak to the scriptures. Finally, we are commissioned(Matt. 28:19,20)to tell the world to come to God by the Son(John 14:6).

  228. Those who have salvation may at times fall and stumble (Lord knows that I certainly do) and there may be ramifications to those missteps…

    …but Christ does not in any way cast us out simply because we are “not faithful” enough.

    Does a loving father exile his five-year old son from the house simply because the child keeps doing something wrong, maybe even something that the kid doesn’t understand why it’s wrong yet?

    Of course not! But the father does, in a loving fashion, discipline and correct the child as best he can. But he does not cast the child from his fellowship because he has failed to live up to the father’s expectations.

    So it is with our Father in Heaven: He may – and does – discipline His children at times. But He does not cast them out from His love and care.

    Scripture tells us that unless we come as little children, we cannot see the Kingdom of Heaven. And that is exactly how we are to view His Kingdom: as children, not knowing any better because we aren’t supposed to be leaning on our own understanding to begin with. In other places the metaphor is even more condescending: that we are all sheep who have gone astray, though we belong to the flock of the Good Shepherd.

    If even one lamb is missing from the flock, will not the Shepherd go in search of it… because the lamb still belongs to the flock? Or does the Shepherd demand that “let the lamb stay lost until it wants to come back!”

    Salvation is once and for all time. But the process of sanctification goes on for an entire lifetime.

    And I have yet to meet anyone who has been able to rightfully say that they don’t need any more sanctification at all.

  229. And it’s more than silly to equate the Baptists or Methodists to the Nicolaitans, since we don’t even have any idea what the Nicolaitans believed, anyway. Some argue they were a Gnostic sect, which John had already warned about and if so, it could hardly be said that they held to the notion of salvation by the grace of God.

    Depending on which flavor we’re talking about, Gnosticism could even insist upon a works-based salvation that demanded its adherents “remain faithful”.

  230. These are verses you don’t see some that are in the church of Christ point out.

    Matthew 5:43-44
    “You have heard that it was said, “You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.” But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you.”

    Luke 6:37
    “Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.”

    Galatians 5:25-26
    “If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.”

    James 2:8-10
    “If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.”

  231. Truth, sorry, but thats just not true. I know you judge them by what you see here, but that is simply not true of all churches of Christ

  232. On February 7, 2009 at 12:04 am reggie Said:

    I read some of the comments concerning the Church of Christ. It’s apparent that most of the bloggers have erred concerning scripture. For example BCV says “why should the COC claim to have something that nobody else have?” In answering that question, the COC does not make any claim, the scriptures tells us what we claim(or have) that no one else has. We read it, know it, understand it, and believe it.

    This is one of the propagada statements that you will not be allowed to make here without my challenge to it!!

    You left out the interpret part where you decide what it means thus you are in the same boat that EVERYONE else who is a believer is in. Otherwise the following would mean what it says:

    Psalm 58:3 Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward and speak lies.

    If you read and understand it, then it means babies can somehow speak lies according to what the Hebrew appears to say and they do it from the beginning of their life.

    Yet I hear Johnny Robertson a Church of Christ Preacher and Teacher laughing at people who actually believe what it says!

    So he has interpreted it to be a figure of speech. Frankly I am not personally losing any sleep over it one way or the other till I see a CoCer start the chest thumping “we just follow the bible” routine.

    We know and believe that we have the gift of the Holy Ghost(Acts 2:38).

    Not all who claim the CoC as their Church believe that, there are some who believe the Holy Spirit is no longer given and that the only thing in operation of the Holy Spirit today is the Sword of the Spirit and that is his word.

    So seeing that my statement reflects the true nature of the CoC, tell me about the speaking in unity etc. that is your bread and butter?

    But this gift is given to all who have HEARD the gospel(Matt. 7:24), BELIEVED the gospel(John 11:26), REPENTED(Luke 13:3), CONFESSED(Matt.10:32,33), been BAPTISED(Mark 16:16) for the REMISSION of his/her sins. An individual must be taught right in order to be saved.

    Tell it to the Thief on the cross, where is his CoC degree in how to be saved?

    Matthew 25:44In the same way the robbers who were crucified with him also heaped insults on him.

    I have heard the CoC spin this event as he died under the Old Covenant, yet I know the Veil is torn at the moment of Christs death, thus the old ways are gone at that point. I have heard it spun that the thief was already baptized yet the above passage indicates that BOTH robbers heaped the insults. That means that both did it at least according to Matthew and Mark, yet I know it is spun otherwise partially because of the story about the second thief itself since that version says the second rebuked the first thief. So I believe that they both did start to do so and that the second thief realized he was dead and that this man who claimed to be God was his only hope and then he cried out to remember him. Your way then Matthew and Marks account is wrong is it not?

    So he did not die under the old covenant since the veil is already torn, he was not already baptized since he at least started to insult Jesus, and he had the chance and the reason to sin after Jesus death:

    John 19:32The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other. 33But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.

    Anyone who is hear has had bodily pain in their life but has anyone here gone through torture? This man who was already racked with pain now has a person beating on his legs to break them, how do you keep from sinning in thought?

    Matthew 5:21″You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment.

    Now is anyone here going to tell me that they would not be angry if I started beating you with a club to break your legs so you would suffocate sooner? And I looked at the possibility of the man being passed out but he reacts to their test and thus he was alive. The odds of him sinning while in great pain, who also did not have the Holy Spirit to comfort, and knows nothing about the rules of scripture that are now taught because most of it was not written down as of this time, yet this man was given a pass, why?

    “I desire Mercy not Sacrifice” is what Jesus spoke to the professional Religious Lawyers know as Pharisees, and why did he do that, because they were so obsessed over the law that it became a weapon to be used to trap others!

    There are people who are just as sincere about their soul salvation, but are sincerely wrong.
    The issue is that the word of God is being rejected. The Truth will not change and neither can anyone change it because the word of God is settled(Ps. 119:89).

    “Your word, O LORD, is eternal; it stands firm in the heavens. ”

    I personally stand flat-footed on the word of God from the book of Genesis to the book of Revelation.

    You stand firm on a translation, of a translation, of a translation, of the original languages and those are all fragmented and suffer from slight alterations of those transcribing them. This alone is one reason why people see things differently and perhaps is a test of God to see how well we will really dwell together with each others weaknesses and faults.

    Also that would mean you are not in the churches of Christ since the old testament is only for our learning now and no longer binding according to their local teachers!!!

    This one book has changed my life and I’m convicted and commited to my Heavenly Father and my Savour Jesus through the apostles doctrine(Acts 2:42). My faith has been growing each and everyday I live. The Bible has taught me how to discern between truth and error.

    This truth and error ability you now posses, was it gained by the teaching of another man or was it arrived at by you the Bible and the guidance of the Holy Spirit? Since the Holy Spirit guided the original followers I wanted to make sure you were really on that level and not just following a teaching of another man’s vision of what it means.

    What we, the Church of Christ, mean by truth is looking at the examples, obeying the commandments, and understanding the necessary inferences of scripture.

    This would be inferred as follows, that you blindly follow a pattern to make yourselves righteous before each other without much thought as to why things happened the way they did, secondly that you obey the commands that you feel are important and infer the rest away but use the ones you do keep to point at others as law breakers just as the pharisees did in their time with the law, thus the New Testament has become a version of the old law where religion is more important then relationship. Sacrifice is more important then mercy!

    Studying the Bible wholelistically, word for word(II Tim. 2:15). To put it all in a nutshell, WE HAVE GOD’S WORD. Other religous organizations have a little, some, part, or most of God’s word.

    I’m not sure if I should laugh uncontrollably or cry at the same level! Last time I checked the CoC was still using the Bible that came from people who called themselves Catholics, thus those who were going to hell for not being in the Lord’s Church gave you your bible!

    Everyone has God’s Word, they all read and infer what is important just as you do except some of them are smart enough to not pass judgment on others. But then they have not been able to be trapped by Satan into a belief that they can pass righteous judgment at a salvation level as God would do and does!

    We do not treat God’s word like Burger King, Have it your way. We Have ALL of God’s word.

    Yes I would like a Double Holy Kiss, hold the cheese and the commands on that item please! Oh and throw in an order of Speaking in Tongues and while you are at it let me get an order of unity, oh wait instead I’ll just de-fellowship with anyone who disagrees with me.

    I’d like that to go please! ;)

    Obey the gospel today. Life is too short, judgement is sure, hell is too hot, eternity is too long, and Heaven can be yours. Judgement day is coming(II Corin. 5:10). God is waiting. I’m not here to be radical, I’m just doing what Jesus has taught in His great commission(Matt.28:19,20). We all must be members of the one body(Eph. 4:4) according to the scriptures. Any other body is unscriptual(baptist, methodist, catholic, muslim, mormon, seven day adventist, jehovah witness, presbyterian, ame, cme, buddah, scientology, and many others that are not found in the scriptures). Oh yeah, don’t forget the unbelievers and/or atheists.
    God loves you and so do I.

    How about churches of the Gentiles? Is that acceptable as a name? Since it uses the same Greek word for churches that is in the greeting that is used to elevate churches of Christ as a command for a name I would think it would be perfectly fine.

    WIL

  233. Hey w i l,
    You responded to BCV by accident, it was me that you tried to criticized on your last response. What is your faith? It appears that you have your own philosophy because your speach betrays you. Let’s have a personal bible study, if possible, so that we can know truth and error by reason of scipture. Then we will also know who is truly walking in love. I attend the Church of Christ here in the Atlanta area. I’m sure there is a local Church of Christ near you. We invite you to worship or even bible study. We will give you a bible answer for a bible question.

    Question: Explain one body, sciptually(Eph. 4:4,5)

  234. I stumbled upon this blog and couldn’t believe that the CofC is still professing out of ignorance they are the “one true” church. I was raised in the CofC and believed this herecy for decades until I started reading and studying the Bible with an open heart. This claiming to the the one true chruch puts them in the same league as the Roman Catholic’s and Mormon’s who claim they are the one true church as well. The truth is there was NO church of Christ before the Restoration Movement/Stone-Campbell Movement in the 1800’s. All CofC members need to read up on thier church history before proclaiming to be the one true church. There is no historical proof of any church of Christ before Alexander Stone split from The Disciples of Christ. Get your facts straight before you start condemning people to hell.

    Redeemed 1

  235. On February 16, 2009 at 11:15 pm reggie Said:

    Hey w i l,
    You responded to BCV by accident, it was me that you tried to criticized on your last response.

    I thought I was using righteous judgment?!?! ;)

    What is your faith?

    That God is the only one qualified to sit in his Throne!

    It appears that you have your own philosophy because your speach betrays you.

    Translation, since you do not see as I do you are wrong since I know I am right.

    Let’s have a personal bible study,

    I searched for the phrase “personal Bible study” and it is not in the Bible and thus not authorized! ;)

    Or should I allow you to work out my salvation instead of doing what God said to do and that is to work out my own?

    if possible, so that we can know truth and error by reason of scipture.

    Translation so I can convert you by fear tactics to what I was taught to believe. Thanks I can read for myself what scripture says including the greek and Hebrew when needed. You might want to try it like take the Greek word for churches in churches of Christ and see if you can find churches of the Gentiles in the Bible using the same form of the greek word of churches!

    Then we will also know who is truly walking in love.

    Love???? Oh let me see, love is when one of your preachers takes and alters a tape to make it look like little girls are showing their privates in a dance at a church by blocking out that area when in fact it was not exposed, is that love?

    Is love claiming to use camera’s and tapes in defense while in the same TV broadcast suddenly becoming gleeful because you caught someone in a sin and crowing “I caught you” even though you cased the sin to happen? Is that love or even speaking truth?

    If not then you need to clean up the churches of Christ before you go trying to fix the world sir! Remove the boulders from the eyes of your members and then come take the pebbles from the rest!

    I attend the Church of Christ here in the Atlanta area.

    Really who’s home do you meet in?

    I’m sure there is a local Church of Christ near you.

    Well I already meet in a home with other believers, thanks anyway!

    We invite you to worship or even bible study.

    Funny out of all the Bible I have read I do not believe I saw Peter or Paul ask non-Christians to do the above!

    We will give you a bible answer for a bible question.

    When I took tests in school sometimes the answers I gave were wrong, so because you have an answer does not mean it is right!

    Question: Explain one body, sciptually(Eph. 4:4,5)

    Lord Reggie I believe that you have all the answers, and I have none thus what I say is wrong is it not? Does you version of the Bible still have one spirit in it or has that been removed?

  236. There is no reasoning with the people of the CoC. You guys are talking to a wall. They have an answer for anything you could try to reason with them about however distorted. Many of these people have OCD and in their fear of being imperfect have thrown the baby out with the bathwater. So much time is spent splitting hairs over trivial issues that are obviously not what Jesus wanted us to focus on our divide ourselves over. I grew up in this church. Years of therapy and antidepressants helped me deal with the negative legalistic and arrogant attitudes I was influenced by very early on. Now I have seen first hand the cruel nature of this doctrine. They truly don’t get it. And they won’t until they have a reason to step away from it and look at it rationally.
    It just will not happen. They cannot be taught. It has been so strongly beat into their brain that everyone else is wrong that they have stopped thinking and although they always speak of “studying to show thyself approved” They only really mean that depending on whether you agree with them. If you agree….GREAT! If not get out! Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling people! Find some peace realizing we are not a perfect creation and don’t let your kids grow up like I did with no love for God because the word Grace is rarely spoken and the idea of keeping yourself perfect is taught. I know I can’t live up to what “they” expect of me. My son will not grow up to be a hypochristian like I did. But my real point is you guys are wasting your time. They have been brainwashed. Until they experience the judgmental and condemning behavior turned on themselves they will just keep going through the motions like a bunch of sheep. Don’t throw your pearls to swine. There is no point. How depressing it is to be a member of the so called one true “Church of Christ”.

  237. Dana we are very aware of all of this! Thus the bar is very low in expectations, my goal is to simply be a voice to people like Jason Hairston who left the faith completely because of this yoke they bring, so that maybe just maybe someone like him will read and understand that there is grace and mercy and that mercy trumps judgment!

  238. On February 24, 2009 at 11:10 am Dana Said:

    Many of these people have OCD and in their fear of being imperfect have thrown the baby out with the bathwater.

    Dana, I think you are right. I too grew up c of c and I do think this harsh mindset causes mental illness to varying degrees. I have thought about this a lot having witnessed this in my own family. Also, on the preacher files once there was a thread about anti-depressents. They were actually having somewhat of a frank discussion about it as it became quite evident that many of them were on some type of anti-depressent. However, they could never connect it to the fact it might be their depressing, fatalist doctrine is contributing to it, which is sad. This area needs to be studied I think. I don’t know if people with illnesses like OCD are attracted to this mindset, or if being in this mindset for so long makes you OCD. Children raised in c of c might be OCD like their parents but is that because they inherited the tendency to be OCD from their parents or did they develop it from the mindset.

  239. This will probably be my last time responding on this site because of those who are ignorant of the scriptures or looking for teachers to scratch their itching ears(2 Tim. 4:3). If you have a problem with truth of the fact that there is only one Church(body) according to the Bible, then show another church in the Bible. If one turns from the church that Jesus built, there is time to REPENT before Jesus returns. Satan is truly confusing a lotttttt of people. I’m just one who plants seed. The word of God. Reject it, then there is hell to pay. Accept it, be baptized for the remission of sins.

  240. Hmm I thought you had the answers Reggie, why didn’t you answer me???????????????????????????????????

    Are the examples I list above a sign of love or are they a sign of something else? I ask because a churches of Christ Preacher has done those things on TV in front of believers and more importantly non-believers!

  241. There has been no more worse grief and strife in this world, than that which has been caused by those who insist that they and they alone possess the one true knowledge of God.

    When in truth, scripture commands us to “lean not on your own understanding”.

    The “Church of Christ” that we are discussing, is not in the Bible. It is no more scriptural than was Jim Jones’ cult, or the Branch Davidians (who also preached and harassed other churches about how “wrong” they were and how the Davidians were the only ones going to Heaven).

    That the “Church of Christ” is not content to hold to its screwy belief, but also lashes out at those who are doing their best to seek God as best they can, shows how much people like Johnny Robertson and James Oldfield hold themselves up over God. They have made an idol of their doctrine. There is nothing about sincere worship of God in their belief system.

  242. ONE GOD, ONE LORD, ONE SPIRIT, ONE BODY(Church of
    Christ, ONE BAPTISM, ONE HOPE, ONE FAITH, ONE BIBLE. One day you will understand what that means. By then it may be toooooooooo late!

  243. Remember those words Reggie because if one person from 200ad till Jesus returns is saved and going to Heaven and your theology has judged them unsaved it will be to late for you sir!

    One Spirit as in Holy Spirit are we sealed by that Spirit today Reggie or is the Spirit gone?

    One Baptism, I recall Jesus talking about his second baptism that of death, yet he used the word baptism to describe it during his crucifixion when was he baptized in water? Or could it be that sometimes baptism isn’t talking about water or spirit but of his death?

  244. I don’t judge anyone as to whether he/she is saved or not. Jesus said, “You will know them by their fruit…”(Matt. 7:20). I just examine or discern the fruit. I don’t judge a person, I discern character. Is that unlawful according to your doctrine? Since you think you know more than the Bible, who then is saved and how did he/she attained salvation. I question your spiritual position, are you saved?
    Only Christians, who haved been added to the church(Acts 2:47), are sealed with the Holy Spirit. One must be a member of the body of Christ, which is the Church of Christ(Eph. 1:13). The Spirit is very much alive today. The Holy Spirit dwells only in the members of THE church, not A church.
    Let’s go to school on baptism. You must understand how certain words are used in the text. It may have one meaning in one verse and a total different meaning in another text. Baptism; the verses that you were referring to are in Matt. 20:23 about baptism. Jesus used the word baptism, he was referring to His upcoming death. The two sons were not aware of what Jesus was about to experience. He did want them to be dipped(baptism) in affliction and persecution because the plan was for him to suffer all alone. Their suffering would come later on. There is no such thing as a second baptism. Where is the word ‘second ‘ used in the text. Once again, Jesus is talking about his upcoming death.

  245. Reggie you have no idea of my character, everyone who is here to answer Johnny Robertson are being a pharisee to the pharisees!

    I only wish you were able to see our local TV station and see what the CoC in this area are doing in the name of God!

    Then see how their fruit sits with you! I will live in peace and tolerate a great deal until a person or persons begin to assault authority and attempt to disrupt other churches, once that happens then we will react and call them on it.

    What I have seen on local TV I would consider despicable because it is Jerry Springer meets Jesus!

  246. Ok Reggie, why Baptism? Why did Peter preach Baptism the way he did to those Jewish people in Acts 2?

  247. It’s not the way he preached baptism as you put it, but the truth is he gave the command to be baptised after he preached to the Jews. Do you remember the question Jesus gave to the cheif priest and elders (Matt. 21:23-27)? Will you answer the same question that Jesus gave to these men? But the key here is that now we are dealing with the command to be baptised which came from the apostle Peter. Where did the command come from? From heaven or from man. You must give an answer.

    But to answer your question biblcally, the Jews were responsible for the death of Jesus at that time. But now, that same Jesus they killed, has risen from the dead. Peter, under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, spoke the words of truth. The response was they were pricked in their heart because of their sinful state. They recognized the need to be forgiven of sins. Peter gave an imperative command or statement that they must obey in order to have their past sins remitted or removed. That’s the pattern the Church of Christ follows. Acts chapter 2 is where we, the church, base our church history. Any more questions about Acts chapter 2?

  248. No sorry Reggie you actually did not answer my question because it is not clearly written for you to repeat like you did the Acts 2:38 process.

    Why baptism, why not have them march around in a circle or dance a jig or sing falsetto or roll on the floor? Why baptism, what does that process mean to a devout Jew?

    Oh if you ask your brothers you are cheating or your preacher. I am asking you to reason it out.

    Why baptism? Why did Peter teach them that to contact the sacrifice they needed to be washed first?

  249. Peter did not tell the Jews to do all of those unscriptual things you stated. I don’t have to give you an answer when all you have to do is READ. Jesus gave the commandment to be baptized on more than one occasion. Why not baptism? Baptism is essential to one’s salvation. God gave it, Jesus commanded it, the Holy Ghost inspired it (through the apostles), I believed it, I responsed, and that settles it. Baptism is just a part of the plan of salvation. The Bible teaches one must hear the gospel, believe, repent, confess, and then be buried with Christ in baptism (Romans 6:3,4). The Bible can tell it better than I can.
    In your last paragraph, I don’t quite understand the question. But nevertheless I will make some effort to give you a sound answer. “Why Baptism”? To have past sins removed or forgiven(Acts 2;38). To be added to the Church(Acts 2:47). To Put Christ on(Gal. 3:27). It saves (1 Peter 3:21, Mark 16:15,16). Born again (John 3:5). THAT’S WHY BAPTISM !!!
    The other part of your question. To answer that, you first must go to Matthew 28:19,20. Jesus gave the great commission to His disciples to GO, TEACH(meaning make disciples), BAPTIZE, IN THE NAME(or by the authority) of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. That is why Peter did what he did. Because of the AUTHORITY that came from Heaven, not man(Peter). Read verse 20 to finish what Jesus told the eleven disciples(vs.16). Also read Matt. 16;18 FOR MORE CLARITY. Baptism is the only way to contact what you call the sacrifice. Not only is baptism is something that they needed to do first, but baptism is also the last thing they needed to do to contact the sacrifice.

    This is sound doctrine that cannot be moved. I love this kind of dialogue. God had baptism in His mind from the foundation of the world. God’s word is …(Hebrews 4:12). OBEY!!! TODAY!!!

  250. “I don’t have to give you an answer when all you have to do is READ.”

    Translation I don’t see the connection with Leviticus and the atonement sacrifice that required washing before contact with the sacrifice.

    The ending of Mark is questionable and perhaps an addition by some well meaning scribes or officals.

    You left out Matthew 28:19?!?!?! Why? It is baptism, it says do it in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit!

    In your theology all Satan has to do is eliminate water and everyone goes to hell that has not already been baptized.

    Mark 16 starting in verse 9 is questionable as to it’s being original text. And Matthew 28:19 has been questioned by some as being altered to deal with the Gnostic view that God the father was evil and Jesus was a good God.

    Go research for yourself and remember that John the Baptist said several things about Jesus, none of them involved water!

    John 3 is the third link that is used to justify water baptism as the salvation method, but those who quote it totally ignore Jesus making clarification to a physical birth and a spiritual birth. And he ends with talking about the spiritual birth or Holy Spirit.

    Now you can go screaming into the night with your hands over your eyes or you can go research it for yourself.

    Peter gave the Jews a chance to go from killers of Christ to Priest’s of Christ. He made it easy for them to transition into Christ. Paul focused on the symbolic in dealing with the gentiles, knowing they had to be baptized to keep unity but that Leviticus had no hold on the gentiles. Roman’s 6 is speaking of that symbolically or did they keep you under the water 3 days?

    Acts 2:38 deals with Jews who had killed Jesus with the help of wicked men, or should we ignore that passage of the Bible?

    Gal speaks symbolically or are you wearing Jesus skin on your body?

    1 Peter 3 is a poor example to have used, water killed millions of people it did not save Noah, the ark did!

    Mark 16 is questionable as to it;’s origin, and where is there an example of drinking poison or handling snakes in the church? It was a good tool to get rid of those who believed in the Holy Spirit though since they would have to prove themselves by drinking poison or handling snakes and thus be bitten and die for their efforts.

    And John 3 deals with the spirit that was Jesus focus, otherwise why did he focus on that in the end of the talk with Nicodemus?

    Mark 10: 37They replied, “Let one of us sit at your right and the other at your left in your glory.”

    38″You don’t know what you are asking,” Jesus said. “Can you drink the cup I drink or be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with?”

    What baptism is Jesus speaking of, water??? spirit??? or is he speaking of his death?

    In your theology water = baptism, in the bible baptism can mean other things!

  251. Oh and for the record, before I did this study on baptism I was baptized per the “commands” in the Bible!

  252. I post those things so that you might realize how thin the ice may be that you walk on while declaring all who have not followed Acts 2:38 to be going to hell.

    Cornelius did not follow Acts 2, yet before Peter comes his prayers are a memorial to God! How is it that a man who was at that moment going to hell could have his prayers given such high honor?

  253. Reggie, you only see the word “obey”, which I believe we should strive to obey Him. You miss who God is who Jesus is. You overlook or ignore the words grace and mercy that is repeated over and over in the Bible. No one, not any one of us deserves grace and mercy, but Almighty God who loves more than any man can love, He gives us His abounding love, grace and mercy. Jesus paid the debt for our sins, a debt we could never pay for in any way. Jesus is our only Mediator, not anyone else or anything else is greater than Him. You may want to believe that another man and water is your mediator. Jesus is my Mediator, Jesus is the One who died on the cross for our sins, Jesus’ Sacrifice on the cross was sufficient enough to cover our sins. I was saved by Jesus. After I was saved I was baptized as symbol of what He has already done for me on the cross.

  254. On March 11, 2009 at 9:57 am Truth Said:

    I was saved by Jesus. After I was saved I was baptized as symbol of what He has already done for me on the cross.

    WHY DO YOU INSIST ON CONTRADICTING THE SCRIPTURES, KNOWING WELL THAT YOU CANNOT SHOW IN THE NEW TESTAMENT AFTER JESUS DIED, WAS BURIED AND RAISED ANYONE, NO NOT ONE PERSON WHO WAS SAVED BEFORE THEY WERE BAPTIZED TO HAVE THEIR SINS WASHED AWAY BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST?

    Mt 23:13 ¶ But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

    Mr 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

    Mt 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

    AGAIN NO TRUTH SAID:
    Jesus is my Mediator,

    BUT GOD’S WORD SAYS……… Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

    NOT “FAITH ONLY”

    Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

  255. Reggie said:
    Acts chapter 2 is where we, the church, base our church history.

    Reply:
    If baptism in Acts 2:38 means that we cannot be saved until we are baptized then that would mean a person cannot receive the Holy Spirit until baptized either. All those who believe a person is not saved and given the Holy Spirit until baptized God turns their understanding of His word and their whole world upside down in Acts 10:44. God gave Cornelius and his household the Holy Spirit before they were baptized. God could have given them the Holy Spirit when they were baptized which still would have proven to the Jews that He accepted the Gentiles, God gave them the Holy Spirit before they were baptized. So either God was wrong in giving them the Holy Spirit before they were baptized or those are wrong who believe a person is not saved and given the Holy Spirit unless they are baptized. I believe God is right. Not only does God prove that He accepts Gentiles He also proves that He accepts people before they are baptized, God’s word proves that He saves us before we are baptized.

  256. There is substantial evidence that Mark 16:16 is a late addition to the New Testament, since it does not appear in any of the earliest manuscripts.

    It is very much quite possible that it was added later by someone with an agenda.

    And even if it is legitimate, it does not say anywhere that those who are not baptized, will not be saved.

  257. Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

    A person obeys when they have faith believing that Jesus is the Son of God that Jesus is their Messiah.

    Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

    A person can be justified in their works, though it is not what saves us it is the blood of Christ that saves us. You may believe Jesus isn’t sufficient enough for you that you need someone and something else other than Jesus to save you. Jesus is absolutely sufficient enough for me. Jesus is my Mediator Jesus is my Savior.

    Romans 3:19-26
    “Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.”

    1 John 2:2
    “And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.”

    Funny you quote the Scripture in Matthew 23:13 that points right at you guys. Here’s another Scripture that fits you and your lack of understanding of who Jesus is.

    Luke 11:46-54
    “And He said, “Woe to you also, lawyers! For you load men with burdens hard to bear, and you yourselves do not touch the burdens with one of your fingers. Woe to you! For you build the tombs of the prophets, and your fathers killed them. In fact, you bear witness that you approve the deeds of your fathers; for they indeed killed them, and you build their tombs.” Therefore the wisdom of God also said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they will kill and persecute,’ that the blood of all the prophets which was shed from the foundation of the world may be required of this generation, from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah who perished between the altar and the temple. Yes, I say to you, it shall be required of this generation. Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge. You did not enter in yourselves, and those who were entering in you hindered.” And as He said these things to them, the scribes and the Pharisees began to assail Him vehemently, and to cross-examine Him about many things, lying in wait for Him, and seeking to catch Him in something He might say, that they might accuse Him.”

  258. Actually I can show you more than one person who was saved before they were baptized. Acts 10:44 Cornelius and the others at his house were saved before they were baptized. God gave Cornelius and his household the Holy Spirit before they were baptized. Acts 11:18 Peter never mentioning anything about the Gentiles being baptized told about the Gentiles receiving the Holy Spirit, those Peter told said “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life.” They confirmed the Gentiles were given repentance-forgiveness of their sins when they received the Holy Spirit. Acts 15:11 again Peter’s words on this matter about the Gentiles at Cornelius’ house receiving the Holy Spirit Peter said “But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.” Peter said the Gentiles were saved as he told them about the Gentiles receiving the Holy Spirit he never mentions anything about the Gentiles being baptized.

    As Peter told about the Gentiles receiving the Holy Spirit they confirmed the Gentiles were given repentance-forgiveness of their sins when they received the Holy Spirit. Peter said the Gentiles were saved as he spoke about them receiving the Holy Spirit confirming God saved the Gentiles when He gave them the Holy Spirit.

  259. Again, the “Church of Christ” as represented by Johnny Robertson, James Oldfield, “faithfull”, etc., is more determined to further a “church” than they are with serving the cause of Christ.

    They claim that they are not denominational…

    …but they have become so obsessed with destroying “denominationalism”, that they have become the worst denomination that I have ever seen.

    They are a cult. And a dangerous one at that.

  260. On March 11, 2009 at 9:57 am Truth Said:
    Reggie, you only see the word “obey”, which I believe we should strive to obey Him.

    After I was saved I was baptized as symbol of what He has already done for me on the cross.

    Jesus says:
    Mr 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

    So you would actually tell someone that they can be saved without obeying Jesus?

    no truth says:
    “I” know Jesus says “he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved” but “I” say to you that you don’t have to be baptized, you don’t even have to repent or confess either because “I” am the standard.
    “I” didn’t shed any blood on the cross but “I” know better than God’s word what is best for you and when “I” meet Him on the day of judgment “I’M” going to tell Him so, and all His Apostles too. Where did they get the idea that they should preach baptism?

    1Co 14:36 ¶ What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
    37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

    no truth says,
    Well Paul “I’M” the standard now and “I” say we don’t have to obey the things that you wrote even if they are the commandments of the Lord. Where did you get the idea that baptism washes away sin? “I” say baptism is just a symbol and after all “I” am the standard.

    Ac 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

    no truth says,
    Well just because you were told to be baptized to have your sins washed away doesn’t mean “I” have to do it, after all “I” think God is a respector of persons and “I” say baptism does not save and “I” am the standard.

    1Pe 3:21 ¶ The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

    no truth says,
    Now Peter you sound just like Paul and Jesus and those others in His church, don’t you know “I” say you don’t have to be baptized now, all you have to do is believe and “I” say that’s not a work.

    Joh 6:28 ¶ Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
    29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

    no truth says,
    Well just because Jesus says belief is a work doesn’t mean anything “I” say you’re saved by “faith only” and “I” am the standard now, pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

    Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

    no truth says,
    Ahh James, who invited you into this conversation? “I” was saved by “faith only” and then “I” figured “I” would get baptized so “I” could join a church that “I” get entertained in. Man “I” can’t wait til that day when “I” can set you all straight. After all “I” am the standard.

  261. chris says

    On March 14, 2009 at 4:56 pm Chris Knight Said:

    Again, the “Church of Christ” as represented by Johnny Robertson, James Oldfield, “faithfull”, etc., is more determined to further a “church” than they are with serving the cause of Christ.

    They claim that they are not denominational…

    …but they have become so obsessed with destroying “denominationalism”, that they have become the worst denomination that I have ever seen.

    They are a cult. And a dangerous one at that.

    CHris why dont you look up cult. You all are the ones who are unorthodox. Accepting all these doctrines that conflict each other. Baptism immersion and baptism sprinkling … why didnt you just get the Baptist preacher to sprinkle you? Because he wouldnt. Why? because doctrine matters?
    you all know this all matters and you are playing like it doesnt. Anything goes on this website but it will not be allowed in the Vandolla Baptist church where Baptist Rick goes. If they have an element try to sprinkle they will split. Just like Methodist are doing over women pastors.
    You all are so unbelievably dishonest. Southern Baptist just pulled major mag from shelves

    THE CHRISTIAN POST
    The article, titled “Women Pastors: Breaking the Glass Ceiling,” was pulled from the shelves of LifeWay Christian stores because it upset its owner, the Southern Baptist Convention.
    The convention believes the position of pastor is reserved for men.
    are you writing the SBC chris?

    NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO?

  262. chris said
    Salvation is once and for all time. But the process of sanctification goes on for an entire lifetime.

    now this is unbelievable. chris do you know how many on here will disagree with you on this? all methodist and all pentecostal if they will speak up.
    this is classic baptist\presbyterian calvin false doctrine

    i doubt anyone will take issue though because they will not want to admit that this is true.. Time to be honest …. do you all believe once saved always saved?

  263. On February 8, 2009 at 3:46 pm Chris Knight Said:

    Scare Bear, the churches are NOT divided! That is something that only the “Church of Christ” cult – along with a very few others – is insinuating.

    I have worshiped in many Methodist churches, Baptist churches, even a few Pentecostal churches. Along with many that could not be said to be affiliated or “denominational” (for lack of a better word) at all.

    And it’s a funny thing: I don’t know of anyone from those churches, who would not fellowship with believers at another. I don’t know of anyone from any of the churches that I have been to, who look down or disapprove of others as being somehow “inferior” or “not truly Christian”.

    There may be differences of perspective, and it is along those lines that we have regular worship with others sharing that perspective… but guess what? THAT IS NOT A SIN! And that is NOT division either! And that is not a reason to dis-fellowship with other believers, either!

    sooooooooooooo shallow!
    Chris the very fact that these all exist is proof that they are divided. If you were half as smart as you promote yourself to be you would go back and look at the doctrinal things over which they have divided. They may take your testimony but you try to teach the conflicting doctrines along with your testimony and see how long you last.
    Get up in the baptist and with your testimony tell them to let women preach and you will get the boot.
    SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO dishonest. you all are unbelievable when you try to make out like denoms dont have divisions
    this is so easy! keep it up chris you are getting no where.
    and all that stuff about how a parent treats his child… do you have children…. do you even have a wife?
    chris knight the champ of answering the church of christ (not) what a laugh. when people look at kwerky they know they have a “live” one.

    thanks nathan for making our job soooooo easy
    jedi knight …….. oh that is richhhhhhh
    good nite from the mid west

  264. disappointed said

    Instead some people turned it into an argument much like my children (aged 2,4,6,10) have. “I’m right, you’re not.”

    now he attacks us and calls us children while he says he is disappointed at how we attack each other!

    are you saying you are right “disappointed” and we are wrong?

    are yu attacking us?

    calling us like your kids?

    i am so disappointed in you “disappointed”

  265. On July 25, 2008 at 11:57 am answeringchurchofchrist Said:

    Since you, TD, are recycling all the old hypercon church of Christ arguments, I’ll go ahead and recycle one of the hypercon church of Christ counter-arguments.

    You wrote:
    “You never heard of the methodist in Gods word.”

    I will give you $1000 if you can find “church of Christ” in God’s word.

    nathan we do not limit it to church of Christ

    the church of God 2Cor 1:1
    Joh 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
    church of God is church of Christ

    now if you want to be irrational go ahead. we can’t find Nathan in the Bible so he does not have to repent.
    but oh we do find Nathan
    Ac 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
    are you a man?
    then Nathan has to repent

    let us play child games with Nathan

    we all know that there has to be a multiple of the singular to produce a plural

    baby logic guys

    now let us hear you produce presbyterian CHURCH before 1600 when Calvin came up with it.

    and nathan if this is sooooooooo strong why havent you brought it on to our show? I wish you would so we can teach people with you as the whipping boy

    you will not ever do it will you

    i would nt either if that is all i had

    all you all can do is send kris up to the station with his silly movie when he was supposed to talk Bible
    we love it

  266. BCV,

    You may think you have really done something acting ridiculous in your last comment. You just show you are a very twisted person. You don’t like the fact God proves in His word He saves people before they are baptized. You don’t like the fact that God has more power than what you guys want Him to have.

  267. nathan said
    On July 24, 2008 at 1:56 pm whatdoesthebiblesay Said:

    T.D. would you have faith in Christ to save you if you couldnt find some water ?

    would you tell me about this mystery place where water can’t be found?

    if you want to be baptized there is water sufficient to oblige.
    T D you are doing a good job against all these folks that have raised up to try and stop our little ole group!
    why do the heathen rage?
    keep it up
    we have them raging in Bay!
    Turn the world upside down brother

  268. Mr. Robertson,

    I am not approving comments like some of the ones you just made about other regular commenters on this blog. You have plenty of other outlets if you want to make personal comments such as that, and this is not one of those outlets.

    Otherwise, I’m happy to let your comments go through.

    Thank you.

  269. Word on the street is that the “Church of Christ” that we are discussing on this forum, has not had a lasting conversion in several months. And perhaps not even more than a year. I do know for certain that they have lost several members, however.

    That is not the attrition rate of a vibrant congregation.

  270. Johnny said:

    would you tell me about this mystery place where water can’t be found?

    Beside Jesus on the Cross, on a death bed where the patient can’t be moved. In an airplane that is about to crash, Space or anyplace outside this planet at this point. Many places in North Africa where the rain is very seasonal and they need to conserve what they have for drinking and can’t waste it on bathing. The top of a mountain where all water is frozen. At a car accident where the driver is about to die.

    Just like the priest who would not stop to help the Samaritan, your theology would not help anyone in the above situations because no water would be available but more importantly you would not want to risk getting yourself in trouble with God by attempting to save someone without water since you would disobey his commands.

    You must protect your salvation by obeying, Jesus said anyone who tries to save his life would lose it! Did you EVER CONSIDER that to deny yourself in your case might mean risking breaking a rule in order to show mercy? Sort of like healing a man on the sabbath!

  271. Johnny Said:

    “we all know that there has to be a multiple of the singular to produce a plural”

    Just for fun, what about deer? ;)

  272. so nathan you refuse to put my true post up but you let any lie that anyone post no matter how demeaning to us

    this is truth at its best (not)

  273. I have received several e-mails from the Bay, Arkansas area during the past number of days.

    All of them pertaining to how one Johnny Robertson is, in the words of many, trying to “start a war” in that town.

    A number of the people there have expressed that they are a community that gets along just fine with each other, regardless of where it is that they happen to worship. There is no division. Or at least there wasn’t, until Johnny Robertson came to town…

    Apparently he visited a Church of Christ and I’m in possession of two e-mails from members of that particular congregation stating that they are embarrassed and “ashamed” that Robertson came. Both of them were extremely vehement in expressing the sentiment that “he’s not like how we really are”. One said that if their pastor knew Robertson was like this, that he should also be ashamed and apologize.

    Robertson went to the house of one Baptist preacher at least four times, trying to goad him into a fight.

    Several reports have Robertson going all over Bay trying to get people to watch his “debate” DVDs.

    One report that came in has Robertson threatening physical violence with one individual.

    Many have written in sharing their belief that Robertson is “mentally unstable” and have asked me, quite seriously, if I believe he should be considered violent and dangerous.

    Several have told me that Robertson has been informed that he is “not welcome in Bay” from now on.

    My blog is getting hits from all over Arkansas, most of those from people searching Google for “johnny robertson church of christ” and finding all the details of his shenanigans that my blog has chronicled. One can almost plot the swath of destruction that he is wracking across that state.

    This is just a small amount of the material that has flooded my e-mail box since last week.

  274. I will not approve comments that dig into people’s personal issues, Johnny. If (for hypothetical example) you were having problems at home and (for hypothetical example) someone else wanted to keep talking about it, I wouldn’t approve those comments. Because it would be wrong for that hypothetical person to keep bringing that up in this forum, and I would want the person making such hypothetical comments to realize that.

  275. On March 17, 2009 at 3:48 pm johnny Said:

    so nathan you refuse to put my true post up but you let any lie that anyone post no matter how demeaning to us

    I’m sorry I thought deer was a singular and a plural, I guess it must be different in Texas! ;)

  276. Also JR while I think your ability to physically threaten is nil, I do see where people could take you this way.

    Also note that many CoC blogs routinely sensor posts, many of them simply stating Bible trues they disagree with.

    “It’s a cruel world Stachel”

    Technically since everyone here who disagrees with you are false teachers then based on that fact everything that is posted would be considered demeaning to you or were you speaking from a multiple personality plural when you used the word us? ;)

  277. chris said about contacts from AR meeting I just held…

    “All of them pertaining to how one Johnny Robertson is, in the words of many, trying to “start a war” in that town.
    One can almost plot the swath of destruction that he is wracking across that state.”

    Chris also reports that he was told there was no division in Bay!
    That should have been your first clue Chris.

    The town of Bay divorced each other religiously years ago. They Baptist who “utterly condemn” Methodist and all others who sprinkle (pg 129 Hiscox Standard Manual Baptist churches)
    I could go on and on…
    When a divorce takes place Chris, is that division?

  278. Yes it is especially when you misuse Ezra 10 to force someone to leave their current spouse and kids to return to the first marriage.

    Tell me since Ezra 10 was about race purification do you also make interracial marriages divorce per that chapter? After all that passage is about keeping the race pure and the religion pure is it not?

    Were all the marriages in Ezra 10 second or later marriages?

    And was God kidding when he said don’t remarry a previous spouse in Deut. 24?

    Ezra 9:1 After these things had been done, the leaders came to me and said, “The people of Israel, including the priests and the Levites, have not kept themselves separate from the neighboring peoples with their detestable practices, like those of the Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Jebusites, Ammonites, Moabites, Egyptians and Amorites. 2 They have taken some of their daughters as wives for themselves and their sons, and have mingled the holy race with the peoples around them. And the leaders and officials have led the way in this unfaithfulness.”

    Mingled the Holy Race, and their detestable practices we can see would be breaking the Jewish laws and thus they are unbelievers in the faith. So both the race and religion are threatened by their actions.

    Compared to 1 Cor. 7 where we are told to NOT divorce a nonbeliever! How do you fast talk your way around that fact that 1 Cor. 7 cancels out Ezra 9/10 since those wives who were sent home were also unbelievers and detestable in practice Johnny?

  279. I read this blog in amazement! I used to be a member of the Church of Christ Denomination. In fact I attended Harding Universty (Church of Christ College) I used to believe their teachings, until I studied the bible, simply seeking the truth. Through much prayer and study, it became obvious that their teachings are in error, and should be rejected.

    Baptismal Regeneration Doctrine:
    Acts 2:38

    This is one of the favorite verses of those who believe baptism is
    necessary for salvation. You point out simply that it says that we must be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and since remission of sins is necessary for salvation, baptism is therefore necessary for salvation.

    A careful study of the Greek grammar at this point shows that it is
    repentance, not baptism, which is for the remission of
    sins. The Greek text reads (translated):
    You (plural) repent and be baptized each one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for (the) remission of the sins of you.

    This makes it clear that remission of your [plural]
    sins is the result of you [plural] repent[ing], not of each one [singular] being baptized. The command to repent is given in the plural number and second person; the command to be baptized is given in the singular
    number and third person; the sins remitted belong to
    you in the plural number and second person. It is therefore improper to refer remission of sins to
    baptism as its cause, for this would mean
    that each one was baptized for the remission of the sins of all those present.

    To take baptism here as causing the remission of sins would be to make the text say, Let him be baptized for the remission of all your sins, and Let him (another) be baptized for the remission of all your sins, and Let him (yet another) be baptized for the remission of all your sins, and so on to each person in the group. Thus, each one would be baptized for the remission of the sins of all the people in the group.

    But the grammar instead is quite clear. Remission is the result of repentance, not of baptism. You repent and your sins will be remitted. You all repent and the sins of all you will be remitted. Acts 2:38, therefore, does not teach the necessity of baptism for salvation.

    Sincerely,

    Jim

  280. If forgiveness was brought through the baptism rather than the repentance, how do you explain the presentation that Peter gives in his very next sermon in Acts 3:19? He is speaking to a very similar group and says almost the same thing, but when he gives the plan of salvation, the topic of baptism is left out altogether!! He said, “Repent therefore and return, that your sins may be wiped away. So we see from this second sermon, that it wasn’t the baptism that brought forgiveness, it was the repentance. Then in Acts 10:43 Peter once again states, “To Him all the Prophets witness that, through his Name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sin. Most people reading these Scriptures see the pattern that is developing…it is the faith in Jesus that wipes away our sin.

  281. How does the Church of Christ justify the conversion of Cornelius? Cornelius was saved before he was water baptized. According to Acts 15…Cornelius was the rule not the exception.

    Foregiveness of sins comes before the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38)

    The gift of the Holy Spirit comes before water baptism (Acts 10:43-48)

    Therefore, foregiveness of sins comes before water baptism.

    Baptism is a work period! Mixing works and grace is deadly (Romans 11:6) According to Romans 4 our faith saves us, before we do ANY works! True faith produces good works, but it is not what saves us.

    Faith=Justification + works

    Faith + works = Justification (Damnable Heresy)

    For by grace are we saved through faith; and not of yourselves: It is a gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast (Eph 2:8-9)

    Keep in mind that I was baptized in a Church of Christ for the remission of my sins. Praise God, that I no longer put my faith in my baptism. I now put 100% of my faith in Jesus Christ for my Salvation.

    Jim

  282. I posted 3 comments on March 24th, regarding the Church of Christ teachings. My comments related to a serious study on Baptismal Regeneration. I received an e-mail confirmation, that I am registered, but none of my comments were posted. Please explain!!

    Jim

  283. All comments have to be approved by an administrator, and we aren’t on 24/7… so when we find them waiting, we’ll typically approve. Thanks for visiting, and for the insightful comments! Admin ACOC

  284. On March 24, 2009 at 2:39 pm Jim Thomson Said:

    But the grammar instead is quite clear. Remission is the result of repentance, not of baptism.

    JIM,
    WHAT YOU ARE SAYING DOESN’T MAKE ANY SENSE. YOU SAY ONE CAN REPENT BUT DOES NOT HAVE TO OBEY.

    REPENTANCE REQUIRES DOING………..
    Mt 21:28 ¶ But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.
    29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.

    Ac 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

  285. I swear, some thing happens when a person goes into Johnny Robertson’s “preaching school”.

    They come out like mind-numbed clones of the man. Right down to spelling/grammar and how they cite scripture.

    It’s… eerie.

  286. On March 27, 2009 at 4:13 am answeringchurchofchrist Said:
    How do you interpret “and do works meet for repentance”, BCV?

    A.C.O.C.
    I DON’T HAVE TO INTERPRETE THE SCRIPTURES, THEY ARE WRITTEN IN PLAIN ENGLISH.

    PAUL SAID AGRIPPA BELIEVED UPON WHICH AGRIPPA SAID HE WAS ALMOST PERSUADED TO BECOME A CHRISTIAN, WHAT DID JESUS SAY ONE MUST DO TO BE SAVED?………

    Ac 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance……………
    KEEP READING, SAME CONTEXT………..

    21 For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me.
    22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
    23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.
    24 ¶ And as he thus spake for himself, Festus said with a loud voice, Paul, thou art beside thyself; much learning doth make thee mad.
    25 But he said, I am not mad, most noble Festus; but speak forth the words of truth and soberness.
    26 For the king knoweth of these things, before whom also I speak freely: for I am persuaded that none of these things are hidden from him; for this thing was not done in a corner.
    27 King Agrippa, believest thou the prophets? I know that thou believest.
    28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.

    PAUL STATED, “I know that thou believest.” NOW ACCORDING TO BAPTIST, PAUL SHOULD HAVE CONSIDERED AGRIPPA A CHRISTIAN AT THAT POINT BUT HE DIDN’T TEACH BAPTIST DOCTRINE, HE GOT HIS ORDERS FROM CHRIST…….

    Mr 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

  287. BCV wrote:
    “A.C.O.C.
    I DON’T HAVE TO INTERPRETE THE SCRIPTURES, THEY ARE WRITTEN IN PLAIN ENGLISH.”

    And right there, in that little thirteen word sentence, you have demonstrated so ably what is wrong with the way hyperconservatives operate and believe. Please allow me to demonstrate your colossal error.

    1. The Scriptures were NOT written in English. The New Testament was written in Greek. So, unless you speak New Testament era Greek, you will be interpreting Scripture.

    2. The KJV, which you quote so ably, is anything but “plain English”. When do you ever say something like “works meet for repentance” in normal everyday “plain” English? Maybe if you are a professional actor at a Shakespearean theater company, you would. Otherwise, no deal. Therefore, since you are quoting a verse in King James era language, you need to be able to interpret that verse in modern English. It’s common sense, BCV.

    3. I know you folks hate when we bring this sort of thing up, but It’s “interpret” – not “interprete”. If you folks ever want to be taken seriously on an intellectual level, you really must learn to use spell check whenever you get that little squiggly red line under a word. It only takes a couple of seconds and makes you look worlds more capable of having a serious conversation.

    4. As to Acts 26, please don’t come onto my blog and try to distort the Scripture to say what you wish that it would say. Paul didn’t say that he knew that Agrippa believed in Jesus – he said that he knew that Agrippa believed in the OT prophets. And Agrippa didn’t confess Christ – he said that (essentially) Paul was making a good argument. So your point is completely moot.

    This is what happens when one doesn’t believe in attempting to reason out the “plain English” of the Bible. One ends up taking things completely out of context and making an error-filled point.

    So, I return to my original question: How do you interpret “and do works meet for repentance”, BCV?

  288. The King James Bible has inherent problems within it from the start. Most of it is based on the scholarship of Erasmus. He was otherwise a very brilliant man. But his translation work was very sloppy ‘cuz he was rushing to finish it for a contest.

    Just one reason why I’m not, and don’t recommend anyone being, King James-only.

  289. On March 27, 2009 at 1:44 pm answeringchurchofchrist Said:
    So, I return to my original question: How do you interpret “and do works meet for repentance”, BCV?

    A.C.O.C.
    I READ THAT VERSE THE SAME WAY I READ MATT. 16:18 WHERE YOU INTERPRET IT TO INCLUDE MANMADE CHURCHES (PLURAL) WHEN JESUS SAYS HE WILL BUILD HIS CHURCH (SINGULAR)
    ………..

    Mt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

    Now you on the other hand interpret this to mean all manmade churches, but He didn’t say He would build churches (plural) and I know you all hate it when we use the sword but that’s just the way it is and always will be.

    A.C.O.C.

    I KNOW IT’S NOT ACCORDING TO ANY WORKS THAT YOU OR I CAN COME UP WITH……..

    Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
    10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

    AGAIN A.C.O.C.
    WOULD YOU SAY A PERSON MUST BELIEVE THE GOSPEL?

    I KNOW YOU WOULD SO IS BELIEF NOT A WORK? JESUS SAYS IT IS………Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

    AGAIN A.C.O.C.
    IS REPENTANCE A WORK THAT MAN COMMANDED OR GOD?
    Lu 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

    AGAIN A.C.O.C.
    IS CONFESSING CHRIST A WORK THAT MAN COMMANDED OR GOD?
    Mt 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
    33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

    AGAIN A.C.O.C.
    IS BAPTISM A WORK THAT MAN COMMANDED OR GOD?
    Mr 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

    Ac 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

    AGAIN A.C.O.C.
    IS BAPTISM AN OPERATION (WORK) OF MAN, OR AN OPERATION(WORK) OF GOD?

    Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

    I KNOW THE TRUTH HURTS BUT WE ARE TRYING TO HELP YOU.

  290. When it comes to baptism, though, there are simply too many Scriptures that give the plan of salvation…and leave the subject of baptism out altogether. How could God be so sloppy, if baptism was the actual point at which God washes away our sin and imputes to us the righteousness of Christ, why do so many members of the Church of Christ denomination fall away from the Lord? Why? Legalism kills! As with all issues of faith, the letter of the Law brings death, but the Spirit brings life! (II Corinthians 3:6)

    It is really the Apostle Paul that puts the icing on the cake on the issue of baptism, by stating in I Cor. 1:17, “Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel!” Now if baptism is the point of salvation, this statement would be utterly blasphemous. But in reality, it simply confirms what the rest of the Bible already teaches… that we are saved by grace, not works of any kind!

    The Church of Christ Denomination make four main errors in their misinterpretation of Scripture:

    CONVOLUTION
    To prove their point they take you from one verse to another and try to get you to agree with their conclusions. The danger is adding 2 plus 2 and coming up with 3. There is a verse in the Bible that says, “Judas went and hanged himself.” There is another verse, somewhere else, that says, “Go, and do likewise.” So we are all supposed to commit suicide, right? Beware of mixing two verses together to come to your “conclusions” when there are already clear verses about the subject. To convolute means to twist. A pretzel is convoluted. Likewise, scriptural Convolution, is twisting a verse or two into a pretzel.

    OMISSION
    They simply omit verses that contradict their position.

    EXCEPTION
    They say that it is an exception rather than the rule. In other words, that verse or incident doesn’t count. Keep in mind, the CHOCD claims to Speak where the Bible speaks and we are silent where the Bible is silent.

    EISEGESIS
    Eisegesis is the opposite of Exegesis. To exegete a text is to draw the true meaning out. To eisegete a text is to read your personal interpretation or preconceive ideas into the verse.

    Exclamation
    This is not so much an error as it is a tactic. This is a tactic used to make the reader feel stupid. There it is! Don’t you get it? It is so clear! Anyone can see that this is correct!

    In reading this blog, I recognized many of the previously mentioned tactics!!

    Jim

  291. Proper Grammar forbids Acts 2:38 from teaching that baptism forgives sins!! The modifying phrase ( for the forgiveness of sins) has to agree with its subject in person and number. It can only modify repentance!

    As stated earlier, faith produces works! Please read Romans 4. Righteouness is credited to you upon faith, before there are any works!

    Jim

  292. BCV, are we really going to do this again? why is it so hard for you people to give a straight answer? I’m not trying to trap you or anything (I have no video camera). I simply want to know – How do you interpret “and do works meet for repentance”?

    Focus…

    And by the way, stop WRITING IN ALL CAPS, please. On blogs, that is like you are shouting, and it’s irritating to readers. Unless you intend it to be like shouting. Are you shouting at me? Why?

  293. Jim, you said something that hasn’t been said nearly enough…

    That faith produces works. NOT works produce faith.

    The local “Church of Christ” cult that we discuss here, has certainly been putting the cart before the horse!

  294. BCV you are from a Cambilite tradition, you can hold your delusional belief system all you want but you are from the Stone Campbell restoration movement.

    Just go read about them and you will see the similar theology, no instruments use of biblical names etc. It is there if you will open your eyes and take off the blinders! Or are you going to attempt to show us your history back to the first century? Please Please Please do, Shawn tried that once and I ate him for breakfast so badly he left the topix thread! So by all means show me, I will clearly show you the errors so your fellow believers can continue to attempt to rewrite history to meet the belief!

    So your propaganda about being descended from the original church is just that propaganda.

  295. walkinginlove, that is one of the questions that the local “Church of Christ” cult will dare not answer.

    They will just attempt to misdirect the “discussion” away from it.

    They are not descended from the original New Testament church. They are not even a new New Testament church… because they are not a real church, period.

  296. Thank you for this website and the opportunity to post a comment.I was raised in the church of Christ, faithfully attending every sunday morning, every sunday evening and every wednesday evening for 18 years.We had four different preachers over the course of those years,each one seemed to be more legalistic than the former.I was 11 years old when I heard a sunday evening sermon about hell and how a person must be baptized for the remission of sins.Later that night before I went to sleep I remember praying to God that he would spare me and let me be baptized before he came to destroy the world with fire and brimstone.So my parents called the preacher,he met us at the church building and he baptized me.It wasn’t long after, that I realized that I was still very capable of sinning.At the same time I was being taught that a person can commit a sin and fall from grace, and it can get so bad that one would have been better off to have never known the truth and face a greater punishment than someone who never heard the gospel.Years later I got away from the church, because, I thought God must have given-up on me because I could never as good as everyone else seemed to be.At the age of 21 I was convinced to go back to the same church.I was baptized again, because, maybe I wasn’t old enough to understand the first time and this will wash all of those sins away.I attended faithfully for two years , living the very best that I could.I met a girl and we married because it was the right thing to do.Three months later it fell completely apart,I was counseled to divorce ,but I could never remarry because that would be a sin.This seemed right for a few years and then I felt very lonely (seems to me I read somewhere “it is not good that the man should be alone”).So off I went again and met my current wife of 11 years . We started attending a Bible church,well how about that the Bible is the Word of God,and the Word became flesh , and dwelt among us.I have learned many things since then, and I know my Father in heaven loves me and no ‘CREATURE’ including myself can seperate me from HIS love.And I know my earthly father still loves me and considers me his child.I wonder if the god of false doctrines still loves me?

  297. BCV said: A.C.O.C.
    I READ THAT VERSE THE SAME WAY I READ MATT. 16:18 WHERE YOU INTERPRET IT TO INCLUDE MANMADE CHURCHES (PLURAL) WHEN JESUS SAYS HE WILL BUILD HIS CHURCH (SINGULAR)
    ………..
    Mt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

    Now you on the other hand interpret this to mean all manmade churches, but He didn’t say He would build churches (plural) and I know you all hate it when we use the sword but that’s just the way it is and always will be.

    Reply: Paul speaking about their ministries said there are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. There being differences of ministries of the Lord is plural, 1 Corinthians 12:4-6 “There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works in all.”

    BCV said: A.C.O.C.
    I KNOW IT’S NOT ACCORDING TO ANY WORKS THAT YOU OR I CAN COME UP WITH……..
    Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
    10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

    Reply: It says we are saved by grace through faith that it’s the gift of God not of works should any man boast. So what is your interpretation of not of works, lest any man should boast?

    BCV said: AGAIN A.C.O.C.
    WOULD YOU SAY A PERSON MUST BELIEVE THE GOSPEL?
    I KNOW YOU WOULD SO IS BELIEF NOT A WORK? JESUS SAYS IT IS………Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

    Reply: Jesus said this is the work of God. John 6:44 Jesus said, “No man can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him.” God is at work drawing people to Jesus. When people believe in Jesus it is the work of God since He draws us to Jesus before we believed.

    BCV said: AGAIN A.C.O.C.
    IS REPENTANCE A WORK THAT MAN COMMANDED OR GOD?
    Lu 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

    Reply: Jesus said if we don’t repent we will perish.

    BCV said: AGAIN A.C.O.C.
    IS CONFESSING CHRIST A WORK THAT MAN COMMANDED OR GOD?
    Mt 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
    33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

    Reply: Jesus said if we deny Him before men He will deny us before God.

    BCV said: AGAIN A.C.O.C.
    IS BAPTISM A WORK THAT MAN COMMANDED OR GOD?
    Mr 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

    Ac 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

    Reply: Mark 16:16 Jesus said he who does not believe will be condemned.

    Acts 10:48 They had the Holy Spirit before they were baptized which contradicts your interpretation of Acts 2:38 that puts the Holy Spirit after baptism. And you guys believe the Holy Spirit no longer exists in people anyhow. Perhaps that’s why when you guys quote Acts 2:38 you don’t show the part about the Holy Spirit.

    BCV said: AGAIN A.C.O.C.
    IS BAPTISM AN OPERATION (WORK) OF MAN, OR AN OPERATION(WORK) OF GOD?
    Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

    Reply: Paul compares baptism to circumcision Colossians 2:11-12, “In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.”

    Romans 4:9-12 Paul tells us that Abraham was accounted righteous before he was circumcised.

    Romans 4:9-12
    “Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.”

    Abraham was accounted righteous before he was circumcised he received the seal of righteousness of faith while still uncircumcised and seeing in Colossians 2:11-12 compares baptism to circumcision we are made righteous before we are baptized.

    BCV said: I KNOW THE TRUTH HURTS BUT WE ARE TRYING TO HELP YOU.

    Reply: If you want to tell the truth, then try not to leave verses out that don’t fit in your unbiblical agenda as you obviously like to do.

    And before any of you try to say we have to have miraculous gifts the Bible says not everyone will.

    1 Corinthians 29-31
    “Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.”

    You guys love to show the verse in Ephesians 4:5 “one Lord, one faith, one baptism”, but rarely if ever show the verse in Ephesians 1:13-14 “In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.”
    Perhaps you don’t like to show this because we see the Holy Spirit is the seal our salvation. John the Baptist spoke about the Holy Spirit in his message that prepared the way of the LORD (referring to God, if you notice they did call God LORD) and the way is Jesus. John said he baptized with water, but Jesus will baptize with the Holy Spirit, Mark 1:7-8 “And he preached, saying, “There comes One after me who is mightier than I, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to stoop down and loose. I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.” The baptism with the Holy Spirit who seals our salvation is the one baptism.

    You guys take away the Holy Spirit when God never did. You guys say the Holy Spirit no longer exists other than the Bible, when did God say that?

  298. Chris

    Thanks for the comment. Sometimes the Church of Christ are unable see the forest through the trees!! Yes they put the cart in front of the horse!!

    Jim

  299. On March 29, 2009 at 4:14 pm Truth Said:
    Reply: Mark 16:16 Jesus said he who does not believe will be condemned.

    truth?
    ARE YOU SAYING BECAUSE HE DIDN’T SAY, HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT AND IS BAPTIZED NOT SHALL BE DAMNED, MEANS YOU DON’T HAVE TO BE BAPTIZED?

    SO YOU WOULD SAY THAT ALL THOSE THAT PETER PREACHED TO IN ACTS 2 COULD HAVE SIMPLY SAID, O.K. PETER WE BELIEVE NOW THAT JESUS IS CHRIST BUT WE DON’T NEED TO OBEY WHAT HE SAID TO DO.

    Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    NOPE, NO SIREE “TRUTH 09″ SAYS WE DON’T HAVE TO BE BAPTIZED. YOU GONNA HAVE A LOTTA SPLAINING TO DOooo.

    Ac 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

    “TRUTH 09″ WOULD SAY, YOU IGNORANT PEOPLE WHY IN THE WORLD ARE YOU BEING BAPTIZED DON’T YOU KNOW YOU CAN BE JUSTIFIED BY FAITH ONLY?

    Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

    Ac 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
    36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

    “TRUTH 09″ WOULD PROBABLY BECOME ANGRY WITH THE EUNUCH NOW FOR ASKING SUCH A SILLY QUESTION BECAUSE THE TEXT SIMPLY SAYS PHILIP “PREACHED UNTO HIM JESUS”
    WOW! PHILIP WHY COULDN’T YOU JUST TAKE HIS PERSONAL TESTIMONY AND GO ON YOUR WAY, WHY WOULD YOU BOTH GO DOWN INTO THE WATER? “TRUTH 09″ SAYS YOU DIDN’T NEED TO DO THAT AND HE CLAIMS TO BE INSPIRED BY THE HOLY GHOST JUST LIKE THE WOMAN METHODIST PREACHER THAT SPRINKLES PEOPLE FOR BAPTISM, AND THE CATHOLIC THAT SPRINKLES LITTLE BABIES. I TELL YOU PHILIP YA’LL SOULDN’T HAVE WROTE ALL THESE SCRIPTURES BECAUSE THEY SURE DO CONTRADICT WHAT THE H.S. IS GIVING PEOPLE TODAY SUCH AS “TRUTH 09″ AND THE BAPTICOSTALS.

    Ac 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
    18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

    AND THEN PAUL’S ACCOUNT……….Ac 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

    “TRUTH 09″ SAYS ANANIAS HAD NO RIGHT TELLING YOU THIS PAUL, YOUR SINS WERE FORGIVEN WHEN YOU FELL OFF YOUR HORSE ON THE ROAD TO DAMASCUS.

    Ac 10:34 ¶ Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

    Ac 10:44 ¶ While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
    45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
    46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
    47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
    48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

    PETER, PETER, PETER, “TRUTH 09″ SAYS YOU HAD NO RIGHT TO COMMAND THEM TO BE BAPTIZED BECAUSE HE SAYS THAT GOD IS A RESPECTER OF PERSONS.

    Ac 16:32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
    33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

    STRAIGHTWAY??????? YOU MEAN PAUL AND SILAS JUST SPOKE UNTO HIM THE WORD OF THE LORD AND THEY WERE BAPTIZED STRAIGHTWAY, AT MIDNIGHT, AFTER AN EARTHQUAKE?
    “TRUTH 09″ SAYS THAT THE H.S. TOLD HIM THAT HE’S JUST NOT THAT URGENT TODAY AND THAT ACTUALLY YOU CAN WAIT TIL YOU’RE ON YOUR DEATH BED AND ACCEPT JESUS INTO YOUR HEART WHILE TAKING YOUR LAST BREATH.

    Ac 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.
    15 And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.

    “TRUTH 09″ SAID PAUL YOU KNOW YOU WERE NOT SENT TO BAPTIZE, AND THE TEXT SAYS LYDIA “WORSHIPPED GOD” WHAT WERE YOU THINKING? WOW THE H.S. TOLD ME SOMETHING DIFFERENT THAN HE TOLD YA’LL BUT THAT’S NOT TO ODD BECAUSE HE TOLD JOSEPH SMITH SOMETHING DIFFERENT TOO, AND ELLEN G. WHITE, AND CHARLES T. RUSSELL, AND MY NEXT DOOR NEIGHBOUR, AND THE PEOPLE ON THIS BLOG. WOW! HE REALLY IS THE AUTHOR OF CONFUSION. OR IS THAT ME?

    Ac 18:8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.

    “TRUTH 09″ THOSE IGNORANT CORINTHIANS, IF THEY ONLY KNEW WHAT I KNOW.

    truth,
    IF YOU WERE RIGHT, WHICH I KNOW YOU’RE NOT, BUT JUST FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUEMENT, IF YOU’RE RIGHT AND ONE CAN BE SAVED “FAITH ONLY” THEN NOBODY HAS ANYTHING TO FEAR, BUT IF YOU’RE WRONG AND THE BIBLE IS RIGHT, AND I KNOW IT IS, THEN YOU GONNA HAVE A LOTTA SPLAINING TO DO. YOU NEED TO COMPARE WHAT THE H.S. IS TELLING YOU WITH WHAT HE HAS WRITTEN IN THE BIBLE AND MAYBE YOU’LL DISCOVER THAT THE VOICE IN YOUR HEAD IS REALLY NOT THE H.S. BUT MAYBE BON JOVI, OR CHRIS KNIGHT.

  300. BCV,

    I am glad that you come here and discuss, I really am.

    BUT THAT IS THE LAST COMMENT OF YOURS I AM GOING TO APPROVE WITH YOUR COMMENTS IN ALL CAPS.

    Don’t you get it? It’s like yelling, and it’s really irritating. So, please, from now on, use caps the correct way.

    Thank you,
    ACOC

  301. I must say, and this is likely speaking for others as well, that all that capitalized text is a real turn-off. Even if there’s a serious point to be considered in there somewhere, most people aren’t going to be interested in straining their eyes looking for it.

    And why bring Bon Jovi into this? He’s a nice guy, I’ve met him before. But so far as I know he’s never entered our discussion before in any way.

    And your spelling is atrocious BCV.

  302. I encourage any Christian to be baptized. I am saying that Jesus’ Sacrifice on the cross was sufficient enough to cover our sins.

  303. There is not a single verse in the Bible that teaches that baptism is a condition that must be met before salvation.

    Not one.

    Paul even said that he did not come to baptize, but to preach the gospel (1st Corinthians 1:17).

    The “Church of Christ” cult that we discuss here, cannot possibly explain this away.

    If baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then wouldn’t Paul, of all people, not only know that but be quite zealous about demanding it?

    And yet, as scripture shows us… Paul is not.

    Paul is explicitly clear that he has come only to preach Christ, that His sacrifice was once and for all time, and it is sufficient and there is nothing that we can do to add on to it.

    But you want to know why baptism was taught at all in the New Testament, such as in Acts 2:38? The “Church of Christ” cult will likely ignore this, as they always seem to do, because it’s not “convenient” for them. But it is the truth, just the same…

    Baptism was never taught as a requirement for salvation. But in the context of the time and the place (namely, Jerusalem circa 33 A.D.) baptism was definitely an important thing for those who were Jewish and had chosen to follow Christ.

    When each of us chooses to seek after Christ, we must make the choice, freely and clearly on our own: will we put aside those things in our lives that come between us and God? Will we surrender our own understanding and strive to follow Him, trusting in His will and not our own?

    That is what baptism was really all about, among the first century church. Peter was telling his Jewish brethren that to follow Christ meant putting aside everything that they had come to understand about serving God by trying to obey the law. Christ had come to put to death the rule of law and bring the rule of love. This was a very hard thing to accept among the new converts of the faith from the Jewish tradition.

    But as we know from scripture, many of them did choose to signal their break from regulations. They chose to follow Christ not because they thought they had to, but they did so because they wanted to. And they were baptized knowing fully well that doing so was going to cost them severely.

    This is what God wants of us, more than anything! He does not desire, and has never obligated us, to “obeying” rituals or “remaining faithful”. He knows that in spite of everything in our own power, we are going to fail in that. So He doesn’t ask it of us anyway…

    …but He does want us to come to Him, and desire to follow Him, because it is what we desire and choose to do.

    When we do that, when we choose that, nothing can come between us and Him.

    And it is not given to any man – and I’m looking straight at you, Johnny Robertson – to declare otherwise. Robertson cannot possibly gauge any of you who are now following him as being unworthy of Heaven.

    So I’m going to tell you that you aren’t worthy of Heaven, and NEITHER am I for that matter…

    But God has plenty enough grace to accept us just as we are all the same.

  304. Now that I think about it, the “baptism” that the “Church of Christ” cult we discuss here demands, is completely the opposite of the baptism among the New Testament Christians.

    Those early believers in Christ were being baptized to show that they were putting an end to their slavish obedience to law…

    …while Robertson and Oldfield and their kind have twisted and perverted baptism into being the beginning of enslavement to law.

  305. What does the Church of Christ believe about Jesus from Creation (Gen.1:1) until Advent (Luke 1:26)??

  306. Proper Grammar forbids Acts 2:38 from teaching that baptism forgives sins!! The modifying phrase ( for the forgiveness of sins) has to agree with its subject in person and number. It can only modify repentance!

    If forgiveness was brought through the baptism rather than the repentance, how do you explain the presentation that Peter gives in his very next sermon in Acts 3:19? He is speaking to a very similar group and says almost the same thing, but when he gives the plan of salvation, the topic of baptism is left out altogether!! He said, “Repent therefore and return, that your sins may be wiped away. So we see from this second sermon, that it wasn’t the baptism that brought forgiveness, it was the repentance. Then in Acts 10:43 Peter once again states, “To Him all the Prophets witness that, through his Name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sin. Most people reading these Scriptures see the pattern that is developing…it is the faith in Jesus that wipes away our sin.

    Acts 22:16
    A careful study of the greek text shows that “wash away” is coordinated with “calling.” That is, calling on the name of the Lord that Paul was to wash away his sins, not by being baptized.

    How does the Church of Christ justify the conversion of Cornelius? Cornelius was saved before he was water baptized. According to Acts 15…Cornelius was the rule not the exception.

    Foregiveness of sins comes before the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38)

    The gift of the Holy Spirit comes before water baptism (Acts 10:43-48)

    Therefore, foregiveness of sins comes before water baptism.

    James
    At first glance it may seem that James is contradicting Paul’s teaching in Romans, “For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God; being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus….. Where is boasting then? it is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay, but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.” (Romans 3:23-24,27-28). But the works which James refers to are those that proceed from a sincere saving faith and a pure heart which seeks to labor for God, help others, and please Him. James teaches that a person who claims to be saved, yet does not have works nor bears fruit for the kingdom, does not have true saving faith. The works which Paul refers to are those which man tries to do to save himself, or to seek favor or merit from God, It is trying to find salvation through obeying the law and not through faith in Christ. Paul said I want to “be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith.” (Philippians 3:9).

    Romans Ch 4-Abraham
    First of all, he was justified by faith not works, verses 1 to 8. Secondly, he was justified by grace not law, verses 9 to 17. Thirdly, he was justified by divine power not human effort, verses 18 to 25. Simple enough. He was justified by faith not works, by grace not law, by divine power not human effort. And in both… or rather in all three, there are both negative and positive perspectives. Faith not works; grace not law, the positive in each case.

    So, in a very real sense, and you would understand this if you were Jewish, some of you are and perhaps understand it even more than the rest of us, but when Paul attacks the opponents of justification or salvation by faith at the point of Abraham, he is storming the very fortress of Judaism. He is smashing down the walls of their strongest arsenal. Because if Abraham couldn’t be justified by works then nobody can be because they said he was the most righteous man of all. And if you can show that Abraham cannot be justified by his works then nobody can.

    Secondly, and conversely, if it can be demonstrated that Abraham was justified by faith then everyone must be justified by faith for Abraham is the standard. If Abraham can’t glory and boast then nobody can because it must be of grace. So, this is critical.

    Jim

  307. What does the Church of Christ believe about Jesus Christ between Creation and Advent?

  308. I have been a member of the Church of Christ for my entire life and so far have found nothing wrong that we do. The Bible does say that you have to be baptized to be saved. (Acts 2:38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.) And where in the New Testament does it say we can use instruments in worship? In Revalation 22:18-19 it says “I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.” Where do you other denominations get this stuff?!

  309. Well, I believe that where God speaks, we speak and where God is silent, we have liberty. I see nothing in all of scripture that says otherwise.

    Although, I do understand what it means to read the Bible through tinted glasses….be they CoC glasses or other.

  310. Some cofC denominations declare music in worship is a sin. I don’t believe God ever declared that in the Bible.

    Luke 15:11-32, Jesus tells this parable about a son who was once lost but returns to his father and is found. And what did Jesus say the brother heard, Jesus said the brother “heard music and dancing” when the father was glad his son had returned home.

    Luke 15:25, “And as he came and drew near to the house, he heard music and dancing.”

    1 Chronicles 16:7-36, David used the word sing a couple of times but he never mentions music here David being someone who we all know sang praises to God with music. So did David mean for them to sing “only” without music, or is that something one would assume in their own opinion.

    1Chronicles 16:8-9, “Oh, give thanks to the LORD! Call upon His name; Make known His deeds among the peoples! Sing to Him, sing psalms to Him; Talk of all His wondrous works!”

    Revelation 14:1-5, There are the sounds of harpist playing their harps as they sang a new song.

    Revelation 14:2-3 “And I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps. They sang as it were a new song before the throne.”

    The coC denomination have added commands God never gave.

    Where does the Bible say “be silent where the Bible is silent”, please provide BCV.

    Where does God say “music in worship is a sin”, please provide BCV.

    Is the Bible silent on the following issues? song leaders, song books, choirs, paid preachers, shoes worn on holy ground, sitting and standing in unison during a service while worshiping singing a song, indoor baptisms, singing songs written by members of different denominations, youth ministers, church secretaries, fellowship halls, and church buildings?

  311. On April 6, 2009 at 4:14 pm Kelly Said:

    I have been a member of the Church of Christ for my entire life and so far have found nothing wrong that we do.

    So there are no sins at all in the body of believers you fellowship with? That is what you just said!

    Secondly you judge the Catholics to be unsaved and going to hell while the term catholic was used before the Bible itself was put together in the form we use today, thus those Catholics who all are going to hell assembled the Bible for you!!

    Do you judge all others except yourselves to be unsaved and going to hell? If so then the law of sowing and reaping in judgment might apply at a salvation level if one of the people from about 200ad till Jesus returns is actually going to heaven. If that be the case and you have judged them falsely what is the reaping that sowing will bring you?

    The Bible does say that you have to be baptized to be saved. (Acts 2:38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.

    Really is that the only verse in the Bible??? Mathew 28:19 baptism in the name of the Father, son and Holy Spirit, was JESUS wrong about that baptism?

    Was Cornelius unsaved until water was applied? If so how is it that his prayers are considered by God a memorial to him??????? HOW CAN THE PRAYERS OF AN UNSAVED MAN BE HEARD BY GOD AND CONSIDERED A MEMORIAL TO HIM??????????????????

    How is it that the Thief on the Cross is recorded as insulting Jesus in Mathew and Mark and later in Luke he is credited as asking to be remembered? DID he have a change of heart and since Jesus died before the Thief’s legs were broken and at that moment the Veil was torn signaling the NEW COVENANT was in effect, how is it that he dies under the New Covenant without water baptism???????

    And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.)

    Per Acts 8:16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus.

    Where is the Holy Spirit, was he on summer vacation during this baptism?

    How about Cornelius, were they faking the gifts till water was applied to them to fool the Jews?

    What water baptism was Jesus speaking of in Mark 10:38 “You don’t know what you are asking,” Jesus said. “Can you drink the cup I drink or be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with?” ???????

    And where in the New Testament does it say we can use instruments in worship?

    Where in the New Testament does it say we can breath during worship???????????????

    In Revalation 22:18-19 it says “I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them,

    And by this quote you bring the same judgment on yourselves!

    God will add to him the plagues described in this book.

    And what book are we talking about again? Revelations? Hasn’t that book already happened according to the CoC?

    And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.”

    Where do you other denominations get this stuff?!

    Lets see where does your denomination find the ability to use Ezra 10 to justify forcing people to end a second marriage and return to their first, when the New Testament clearly shows that race and religion are non-factors in marriage?

    So what happens if one of the millions of people you claim as unsaved makes it into Heaven? Just one???

    Since you sow at a salvation level and are wrong, what will you reap??????

  312. 1 Chronicles 16:7-36, David used the word sing a couple of times but he never mentions music here “David being someone who we all know sang praises to God with music. So did David mean for them to sing “only” without music, or is that something one would assume in their own opinion.

    1Chronicles 16:8-9, “Oh, give thanks to the LORD! Call upon His name; Make known His deeds among the peoples! Sing to Him, sing psalms to Him; Talk of all His wondrous works!”

    – They didnt take this to mean one could not use IM and God never called it sin…so how can we call it sin, seeing God didnt. Transgressing the law is sin, how does IM transgress the law?

    Like you said, here is says sing only…they didnt see it as sing without music, so why do we. If I ask you did you hear Carrie Underwoods new song that she sang the other night…does this mean there was no band or music present??????????

  313. SO nathan bans BCV from all caps and the next post is by chris and he uses caps.

    I think the truth is bothering you more than caps

    The Lord open those gates and let me out of Jail Chris
    and boy was I back last week 9 times 60 lets see???? that equals 540 minutes of live prime time gospel! Oh I forgot the 30 minutes 570 minutes… Kinda like those guys in Acts 4 & 5 … put em in prison and they just come back stronger.
    And what do you think this week is going to hold? Did you hear how NC folk were talking about Chris and the Baptist preacher …

  314. Mr. Robertson, BCV was using caps ALL THE TIME. It’s like being around someone who is yelling ALL THE TIME. And I’m not sure what comment you are referring to by Chris, but I’m sure he wasn’t using caps ALL THE TIME.

    As to your last two paragraphs… I’m really not sure what all that means. Would you like to offer an interpretation?

  315. Well, all I know is that my creativity combined with how nutty the local “Church of Christ” cult actually is, got my writing talent noticed and landed me some good $$$ for long-term contract work.

    Since it indirectly comes from the “good graces” of Johnny Robertson, it’s going to wind up donated to a couple of Baptist churches in the area, in his name.

    That, ladies and gentlemen, is what we call a “bank shot”…
    :P

  316. Chris, you state you have some contract work via the indirect “good graces” of Johnny Robertson, and you wish to donate them to a local church. I will have to say, your story sounds a bit far-fetch to me, and just so that we know this to be true, could you list the name of the Baptist Church you will making your donation?

    Sorry, but I just don’t see how that story ( April fools joke ) could land anyone contract work. Please elaborate further or offer some proof to legitimize your story.

    Personally, I think your story was over the top, meaning uncalled for and very unchristian like. And to see others here seemingly defending you, makes me question their heart.

  317. Randy someone liked it and hired Chris, does not take much analysis to figure out that the creativity shown in the story is something business needs right now!

    Johnny said:
    “I think the truth is bothering you more than caps”

    No Nathan runs the forum he told him to stop doing it, but he chose to ignore him and do it anyway thus he was banned. Thus the truth is he failed to submit to the authority of this forum and payed for it. And my guess is that is the same reason someone unnamed lost their job recently also. Nothing firm to prove that, other then a total lack of respect for authority from CoCers to back up the theory.

    As for truth, you mean like the truth that silenced your son in another thread?

  318. Johnny and his men harass people at their homes and when they are at church and he uses deceptive tactics claiming that represents Jesus. Johnny shows chopped up videos of people not just once or twice but countless times. A video in which Johnny has shown a number of times shows his men outside a house who wouldn’t leave an elderly women alone when she asked them several times to leave and they continued harassing her to the point she felt she had to threaten them with a gun to get them to leave. Johnny’s men brought about a situation that could have ended up a fatal situation to anyone there. The gun could have gone off the elderly women could have accidentally shot one of them or herself or they could have caused her to have a heart attack or stroke.

    On Johnny’s program he blasted a preacher for putting baptism off and then afterwards on the same program Johnny did the same thing.

    Johnny and his men harassing people is uncalled for and very unchristian like.

    I think people have the right to question someone who seemingly tries to defend Johnny.

  319. Just to clarify something – BCV was not banned. I simply told him that his next post typed in all caps would be his last, since he persisted in doing so after I had asked him not to. He is still free to post as long as he adheres to this request.

  320. The problem is you guys seem anti-Johnny, and no matter what occurs, you will side with anyone who does not agree with him.

    Again, I have seen the claim that Chris was given a contract based upon his article. I still have my doubts, but if he did…..he did. How would you guys like something like that written about you and your family?

    You can not criticize Johnny for going into churches and other things, and at the same time justify Chris for his article. I may disagree with him on some things, but should I turn my disagreements into some story that supposedly got me a contract that I supposedly will give to some Baptist churches?

    And the statement of today goes to……….TRUTH; “I think people have the right to question someone who seemingly tries to defend Johnny.”

    Think real hard about your statement, TRUTH.

  321. “Johnny and his men harassing people is uncalled for and very unchristian like.”

    Just as I told Johnny today, I will tell you. I have mixed feelings on this. I am on the fence regarding their tactics. Here is why: Should we sit back allow false doctrine to go forth and not say anything? Can we speak out against what we see wrong? When should we draw the lines? We sure do a good job calling Johnny out on things, so why cant he do our preachers the same? We wish for him to be silent, while pointing out how wrong he is…………that just doesn’t seem quite fair to me. Again, I am not saying I agree with any tactics that you stated he uses, but………….if we can blast on Johnny….harass him with April fool Jokes and on here too…………..then I have we have no right to say he shouldn’t do what he does……….

  322. TRUTH: Will muslums be in heaven? How about those who followed Jim Jones ( they spoke in tounges, danced and stuff, prayed to God ) will they be in heaven, seeing they followed a cult from innorance and lack of study. How about Jehovah Winesses, will they be in heaven?

  323. TRUTH: Btw, the reason I ask you this, is because I know you know there are groups you think to be cultish or preaching another gospel. Should we expose them?

    Are you familiar with the John Ankerberg’s show, a half-hour program seen in all 50 states via independent stations, the DAYSTAR Network, the DISH Network, DirecTV and on the SKY ANGEL Satellite, numerous cable outlets, as well as on the internet. The program can be seen each week by a potential viewing audience in excess of 99 million people. John presents contemporary spiritual issues and defends biblical/Christian answers and often exposes false teachings. I have watched debates on his show and seen him speak against Mormons, JWS, Muslims, and many, many, more. Obviously, with this kind of outreach, he has quite a bit of support. He calls people out by name. Why not slam on him? Is what he doing ok? I think so.

  324. Did Chris’ April fools joke post cause someone to pull a gun out, no. Was Chris’ point right that Johnny and his men’s harassing people can cause a fatal situation to happen, yes.

  325. Muslims, Jim Jones, and Jehovah Witnesses each claim they are the only one’s going to heaven which puts them in the category of a cult, Johnny also makes that same claim.

    Randy do you believe Johnny is right saying that God no longer gives the Holy Spirit to people other than the Bible? If you don’t do you believe Johnny should be teaching this false doctrine?

  326. As soon as Johnny and his crew stop the storm trooper routine, and calling people at home and showing up at their homes and taping people secretly thus turning the United States of America into a secret police state I will be silent.

    He may believe what he wants about scripture, and for his sake I hope he is right, as I would rather go to hell then someone who was so sure of his righteousness end up there.

    Like Paul I am the chief of sinners! If I end up in hell, then it will be just punishment for me, if not then it will only be by the mercy of a heavenly father who gave his son for me. I will never be worthy of that gift no matter how perfect I live my life.

    I wish the same thing Johnny wants and that is unity of the body, but I do not believe his tactics will gain that result, it will only add another layer of offense between the different bodies for future generations to retell in justifying their differences and separation.

    We are simply spinning our wheels in gridlock. A few people cross over to the CoC and are Acts 2:38 and then a few leave and go back to other bodies.

    And in the mean time many see the fight and simply harden their hearts to what was supposed to be the Good News, that the favor of God was given to man through a perfect sacrifice that paid all the debts from the beginning of time till the end of time and that gift was within reach of everyone.

    Where is that message today????????????????????????

  327. God alone will judge and will decide who will get into Heaven. I strongly imagine that when that day comes, all of us who are there will be surprised at who “got in”… as well as perhaps more than a bit perplexed as to who was left out.

    Ever read “The Last Battle” by C.S. Lewis? I did, a few years ago. There is a young soldier from the enemy army who goes into the Heaven that Aslan provides, while his commander is taken off to Hell by the demon Tash. Now, this young man had been seeking after Tash all his life. But what made him be saved and his commander be damned? It’s because he was honestly and sincerely seeking after truth, as best he could understand it. And that is something that was so unlike the real nature of Tash, that Aslan/God had to credit it as the young soldier’s righteousness and faith in the real God that Aslan represented (as a type of Christ).

    Ever since I’ve read that book, and studied scripture on my own about it… I haven’t but been led to the same spiritual conclusion that C.S. Lewis was outlining in the story.

    There may very well be “Muslims” in Heaven (and quite a few others we probably aren’t expecting). If there are, they were not following Allah or Muhammed or whatever out of “religion”‘s sake, but were seeking to know God as best they possibly could. Jesus told us that “seek… and ye shall find”. That is a promise to us. That if we do seek, no matter our circumstance or the limitation of our knowledge, we will find Him eventually. He will provide a way to know Him. But it will be on His terms, not ours. And that is something left to Him and Him alone to judge.

    (Incidentally, this also means that the “Church of Christ” that we have around here is damning far more people to Hell than radical Islam is. Because it damns in the very name of Christ.)

    Remember: Abraham also was a man called out of polytheism. He had not the understanding that we do as followers of Christ. But his faith was accredited to him.

    Some are going to no doubt scream “Ohhhhh Chris believes all roads can take you to Heaven we are going to make hay with you boy!”

    Far from it.

    I believe firmly and without a doubt that Christ is the only way that God has provided for salvation. I’m just saying: His ways are mysterious enough, and His provender is plenty adequate, that all who sincerely desire to know Him will be given a way to know Him. Might not be in a way that satisfies us… but then, since when did God operate according to our expectations of Him? And we should be thankful that He does not!

    Now, where does that leave those of us who have found the truth of Christ? We don’t need to look any further. We are called to display His love toward others as best we can, however. And so it is that others will see the love and grace and mercy in our own hearts, and will wonder at what it is that we have… and they will come to desire it also.

    We who have Christ don’t need to search for the truth He represents any further. But there are others who are searching for Him, even if they don’t know that it is He they are looking for, like the Ethiopian eunuch. So it is that it is left to us to be made available to God, to lead us where He may, just as He did with Philip.

    And Randy,

    “…your story sounds a bit far-fetch to me”

    That’s okay. Most of my life would probably sound far-fetched to a lot of people
    :)

  328. TRUTH SAID: Muslims, Jim Jones, and Jehovah Witnesses each claim they are the only one’s going to heaven which puts them in the category of a cult, Johnny also makes that same claim

    RANDY SAID: Saying you are the only ones going to heaven doesn’t make you a cult, you get that statement from articles you have read, because there sure isn’t a BCV to back that statement up. What makes one a cult is their practice i.e., false teachings.

    TRUTH SAID: Randy do you believe Johnny is right saying that God no longer gives the Holy Spirit to people other than the Bible? If you don’t do you believe Johnny should be teaching this false doctrine?

    RANDY SAID: As I told Johnny yesterday, this is what concerns me about the church of Christ. They, too, have things they teach differently. I have heard Johnny state what you say above, but I disagree. Not just I, but many conservatives believe that the Holy Spirit resides in the believer and there and just as many that believe that the Holy Spirit is in the believer only through the written Word. But, most still fellowship with each other. Here is the problem. Both doctrines can not be right, but they still “ agree to disagree” …maintain fellowship. This is why so many people are over at the graceconversation site discussing these very matters…..they see the inconsistency. We allow certain disagreements while condemning others …..we will fellowship with brethren who have opposing views of the Holy Spirit, but don’t dare bring up Music in church…..that one will get you booted out. Both are clearly doctrinal…..and people are seeing this and it is making the church of Christ look like hypocrites. I believer everyone teaches some form of false teaching, meaning they are wrong on certain things, but is every doctrinal error fatal? Which ones damns one to hell…and which ones do not? To get an idea of how confusing this is………go to http://graceconversation.com/

  329. BTW, I believe this site “graceconversation” will end up being one of the highest rated blogs. It has only been open for a short time and already has over 7000 hits. The reason is people want to discuss these things and want to unite, but we cant do so while picking and choosing certain doctrine over others. If I can fellowship with one brother because he and I disagree regarding the Holy Spirit being in the believer…then why cant I extend that same fellowship to brethren who have instruments in church? Who make these rules?? Answer: each assembly ! Todd Deaver has pointed out many conservatives preachers who hold opposing views on various doctrines, but they still have fellowship. It often boils down to the 5 acts of worship…and that is where we try to agree. But, the other “doctrines” we call expedients or matters of judgment. See, this makes us feel good about our disunity, while claiming we all “speak the same things”…………it is very sad.

  330. Randy,

    You’re forgetting that in Heaven, nobody will be called “Muslim” or “Baptist” or “Church of Christ”, or any of those things.

    Stop limiting yourself to such a strict temporal perspective.

  331. You ask if I think Johnny is teaching false doctrine. I think everyone teaches things falsely to some degree. This isnt making excuses for anyone, just that we all grow at various levels and we often reach different conclusions on things we read in the bible.

    Regarding the Holy Spirit….this is believed two ways with in conservative church of Christ churches. The question is – does this make one a false teacher? Is Johnny a false teacher for believing that the Holy Spirit only resides in a believer via the written Word? I don’t think so. It means he may be mistaken or the other view mistaken, but we are not creatures with perfect knowledge of every issue in the bible and to make every issue doctrinal, far as agreement goes, would exclude us all from heaven.

    If one is resting upon his understanding, God pity him. But, we should and must strive to understand scripture and shouldn’t use this as a way to allow “anything goes” in church. There are rules, patterns, standards in scripture that a Christians life should mirror, but these rules, patterns, and standards should not be some legalistic check list.

    One should obey because he desires to please God and this perfect love with cast off fear. Paul was compelled by love, not fear….he imitated Christ…..so maybe we should do the same. Jesus Christ obeyed the law of God from love, not a legalistic check list…..that is how we should pattern out lives.

    Jesus fulfilled the law of God because we couldn’t and we still can not! Thus, the reason Him being our advocate, pleading our case before the Father. We still fall short on morals and doctrine and when we do, we have Jesus at the right of God, pleading our case.

  332. “Limiting myself to a strict temporal perspective.” Chris, are you pulling a late Aprils fools joke? What you are implying is that there are many ways to God. Not just THE WAY, THE TRUTH, THE LIFE.

    Nathan ( whoever you are ) do you agree with this? Does anyone on here agree with this?

  333. Chris, do you believe Jesus is THE only way to heaven, meaning one MUST believe in His work on the cross?

    Before you claim that the Old Testament is lacking the Gospel, keep in mind… it all points to Jesus. Let me ask this another way: TODAY, if someone asked you how to be saved, would you reply. “Any religion will suffice, join the Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, Muslims, Buddhist, it doesn’t matter, seeing we can get to heaven however WE CHOICE.” Or, would you tell them about Jesus coming in the flesh, dying in our place – paying the sin dept, raising from the dead, so that we can live…..you know….a message like Peter and others preached? Could you preach something this restrictive? Peter did. Paul did.

    Nathan, TRUTH, Walkinginlove….if you guys are believing this message of Chris, I see no need to continue here with you guys. To set back and say nothing is the same as agreeing with him. Is not Jesus the one you profess to the ONLY way to heaven? Are you so afraid of offending Chris, that you will not even defend Jesus work on the cross? I will await your replies. “WIL” we have talked many times – and if you sit back saying nothing, it is the same as agreeing with him. Is not Jesus THE savior? Or can we get to heaven other ways, as Chris is saying?????

  334. Just FYI – I’m going to join in – just can’t at the moment. Not enough to really add a substantial response. I’m doing what I can to approve comments at the moment.

    For now, I’ll just say that I agree with what Jesus says about himself in John 14:6. More to come.

  335. Okay. I think I have it figured out. If you guys speak out against Chris, you would be doing as Johnny. You don’t want to say Chris is wrong, because then your argument falls. I mean how could you slam on Johnny for blasting other religions, if you blast Chris?? So, you sit idly by reading the comments, but not willing to defend the cross, because doing so will kill your argument that Johnny has no right to call others out.

  336. Thanks Nathan !

    ….And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.

    Jhn 14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

    Jhn 14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

    Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, BUT BY ME.

    Jhn 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

    Jhn 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

    Jhn 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?

    Jhn 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

    Jhn 14:11 Believe me that I [am] in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake

  337. A agree that Jesus is the way the truth and part of that truth is the following:

    James 2:12Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!

    If a Muslim believer honestly seeks after God but has never heard the truth about Jesus but is only taught he is a prophet of God, if that person also has been merciful to others all his days, will judgment overrule that mercy per James 2?

    My answer is I am not sure but it appears that Mercy should overrule Judgment, thus I leave that to God to deal with as he sees fit.

  338. First I want to say I have been busy and have just been able to read the comments, so please don’t assume someone is sitting back saying nothing.

    And Randy you don’t have to shout at me using caps every time you refer to me. Truth can mean that I try to be honest.

    Randy said: Saying you are the only ones going to heaven doesn’t make you a cult, you get that statement from articles you have read, because there sure isn’t a BCV to back that statement up. What makes one a cult is their practice i.e., false teachings.

    Reply:

    I was pointing out a false teaching they teach.

    Do you believe the Jehovah Witnesses are the only one’s going to heaven as they claim or is that a false teaching?

    Do you believe a Muslim covert to Christianity is condemned to hell?

  339. TRUTH: I am not screaming at you using caps, you guys get too touching over this sort of stuff. I simply do it that way out of habit, and will continue, most likely. Maybe if you could use your real name, that would be better.

    I believe the JW’s to be lost just as I do a Muslim, seeing they both have warped views of Jesus and false teachings about Jesus. If you abandon the most basic fundamentals of Christianity, you have denied the very Gospel which saves. John clearly makes this case to those who deny Christ. Can one be saved apart from the Gospel?

    When I say Muslim, I am speaking of that which they believe. You ask if a Muslim converts to Christianly, would he then be saved. Anyone who comes to the father by Jesus – the Gospel, is saved. He would then be a Christian, not Muslim.

    Have you studied the doctrines of JW’s and Muslims?

  340. WIL: I understand your points, but the facts are the facts. Muslims worship another God, not the God who sent His son Jesus to pay our sin debt and rise from the dead. They wouldn’t accept you into their flock and they would consider you damned for believing in Jesus as your way to heaven.

    As you stated, they see Jesus as a good man, a prophet of God. They deny him coming in the flesh to die on a cross for our sins – John calls these type of people anti-Christ.

    I think your main point was what if they lacked hearing the gospel? I will leave that in Gods hands too. But, it seems to me that the blind can lead others into the ditch. If I follow a false religion sincerely, will I be judged/condemned? It seems to me that all outside of Christ are condemned, seeing there is now no condemnation for those in Christ. If I held your view, why even bother preaching the gospel. Heck, let them live in error and false religion, seeing they will get to heaven anyways.

  341. Randy,

    You still do not understand.

    But that’s okay. If we can’t perfectly comprehend the magnificence of Christ and yet can still find salvation in Him, then nothing at all hinges on whether anyone understands me. And I’m fine with that.

    I do however think that you are trying to see in my words, only what it is that you want to see.

  342. truth: ( I whispered this time ) :) JWs do not believe in the Trinity, they also do not believe that Jesus is God in the flesh. They add the word “other” four times to Colossians 1:16,17, teaching that Christ was God’s first creation, i.e., the reincarnation of Michael the archangel created by Jehovah, rather than the Creator.

    JWs deny the bodily resurrection of Christ through their teaching that the body of Christ was annihilated by God — not risen — but rather a new one was created three days after His death. This they call the “resurrection” of Christ. Thus, Jesus was “resurrected” as a “glorious spirit creature” and does not now have a glorified physical body. Instead, they claim Jesus arose spiritually and only “materialized” at various times after His resurrection so He could be seen alive.

    JWs deny the deity of the third person of the Trinity, as either God or as a person; they claim that the Holy Spirit is only an impersonal “active force of Almighty God which moves His servants to do His will”

    JWs claim everlasting life is a reward for doing the will of God and carrying out one’s dedication — in other words, salvation is a reward for good works.

    There are other things too. This is just a few. BTW, I use to work with someone of this faith – I am quite familar with their teachings. The above is why I see them on the wrong path. Sorry, but I can not put Johnny in this class. In fact, Johnny teaches against this sort of false teaching.

  343. Muslims claims that Muhammad and Jesus were both Muslims and prophets of Allah. Whoa, Nelly! They say that Allah has no son and they are right. Allah is not the omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent God of the Bible–so they are right, Jesus is not the son of Allah. He is the Son of God. Muslims say that the Bible is corrupt, we can’t trust it–yet the Quran claims to based on the Bible.

    Islam says:

    • Jesus is not the Son of God.
    • Jesus did not die for our sins.
    • Jesus was not crucified.
    • Jesus was not divine as well as human.
    • Jesus is not the Saviour.

    Jason provided me with a lot on this subject a couple years ago. I suggest you read some of the statements in the Quran. Sorry, but Johnny doesn’t fit this class of people either. In fact, he teaches against these too.

  344. “I do however think that you are trying to see in my words, only what it is that you want to see.”

    – No, Chris. You are wrong. I just overemphasized my point to get further clarification. I understood what you were saying from your first comment, but you left some grey areas and holes. I just wanted to pull more out of you, so we know where you stand, that’s all.

  345. Randy,

    Nobody here is equating Islam with Christianity. I agree with you wholeheartedly – that people who lump everyone into one category saying “all roads lead to heaven” are pretty disrespectful of the different religions they are trying to join together. As you said, most serious Muslims don’t buy into this “all roads” nonsense that so many Christians espouse these days. Serious Muslims realize to compromise like that is to deny the fundamentals of their faith. A follower of Christ who respects the Word as God’s Word should feel the same way about Christianity. We mustn’t forget verses like Acts 4:12.

    But about Chris’s statement – he stated categorically that he was not advocating “all roads”. He wasn’t saying that heaven is going to be filled with Muslims and Christians jockeying for a better seat. In fact, what he DID say was:

    “I believe firmly and without a doubt that Christ is the only way that God has provided for salvation.” Again – see Acts 4:12.

    What he was making the case for, it seems to me, is that the Bible doesn’t say what happens to people who have never about Jesus or have never heard the Truth about Jesus. The unction is on us to share the Gospel because we DON’T know and shame on us if we don’t (Rom. 10:13-14). Maybe God, in his mercy, will save some who’ve never heard about jesus – or who have heard lies about Jesus (He’s God… He could do that. Does anyone claim God couldn’t?) – maybe they will meet his judgment. We just don’t know. Either way will be just and right, because either way is God’s will.

    Here are some related verses:

    John 3:36, “He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

    John 14:6, Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me.

    Acts 4:12, “And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved.”

    Rom. 10:12-15 “For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call upon Him; for “Whoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved.” How then shall they call upon Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring glad tidings of good things!”

    1 Tim. 2:5-6, “For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony borne at the proper time.”

    1 John 5:11-12, “And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.”

    Rev. 20:15, “And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”

  346. No worries. Good to clear up misconceptions.

    I’ll be away from my computer for a while, so if anyone makes a comment, it’ll be posted later in the day. Cheers, all!

  347. Hi (3rd Request),

    Can you please tell me what the Church of Christ believes about Jesus Christ between the time of Creation Gen 1:1 and Advent Luke 1:26??

    pax and cheers, judojoe
    columbus, ohio

  348. Randy,

    Johnny teaches God no longer gives people the Holy Spirit other than the Bible. Do you believe Johnny denies the deity of the Holy Spirit as a person who works in us today?

    Here are your word’s: JWs deny the deity of the third person of the Trinity, as either God or as a person.

  349. Randy,

    Think about this for a moment, or several if you got ‘em…

    Why should anyone in this world, not knowing anything about either, believe that there is any difference at all between Jesus Christ and Muhammed?

    The very sobering reality is: they have no reason.

    We can “preach Jesus” until we’re blue in the face and hoarse from talk, but ultimately it is our hearts which will preach Christ, not our tongues. Our actions will show others that He is at work in our lives, not our words.

    It is whether or not we demonstrate Christ’s love, which will demonstrate His truth and which will win people over to Him… or show the world that Christianity is just more “religion”.

    Absent that love, well… there is nothing at all which differentiates Jesus from Muhammed. There is nothing at all which separates Christianity from Islam or Hinduism or any other “false religion”.

    Because without Christ’s love and the desire to share it with others for His sake, then Christianity becomes another mere religion in a world of many. There is nothing to make it special. His precious name becomes nothing without His love and mercy and grace behind it!

    So it is that the “Church of Christ” cult operating in this area, does not preach Christ at all.

  350. Hey guys,
    Interesting conversation. I was just curious about a couple of things:

    1. The word “Cult” has been thrown around a lot. What do you all think qualifies a group as a cult?

    2. “Any religion will suffice, join the Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, Muslims, Buddhist, it doesn’t matter, seeing we can get to heaven however WE CHOICE.”

    – I don’t see that anyone one here has stated this. It seems that Chris was simply saying that there is no way a mere fallible man like himself could stand in the shoes of almighty God and pass judgment on all of humankind for eternity.

    – Also, I don’t believe it’s fair to state that members of these groups have simply Chosen to follow a certain religious path the same way someone chooses what pair of shoes to wear. Many were born into it and have never even heard of Jesus, much less the Coc. Remember each of these groups have their own holy books, traditions they fight over, claims to God, etc. Most even have their own Johnnys that think you are going to Hell for not following some minute practice that you not even aware of.

  351. Hi (4th Request),

    What does the Church of Christ believe about Jesus Christ between Creation Gen. 1:1 and Advent Luke 1:26?

  352. Except their “Johnnys” convince their “Marks” and “Micahs” to blow themselves up to kill those who don’t believe as they do.

    Thus turning all others effected by the blast hard hearted towards what they believe.

    And what is the effect for a person who is secretly interviewed while being offered a chance to attend church, only to find themselves on TV without their knowledge?

    The same!!!, they harden their heart to the ones who in the “name of God” used secret and hidden things to further their beliefs. Same is true for those who feel so harassed they have to call the law to force someone to leave who is being confrontational.

    Don’t believe me then go to some reinterviews with those same people and ask them if they are more likely or less likely to listen to you after finding out you secretly recorded them?

    A hard heart is something difficult to break thus making the good news impossible to hear!

  353. Hi Joe,

    I think our regular church of Christ posters have taken a break from the blog. At least they haven’t been posting here alot recently, although they do still visit and read.

    Anyone care to take a stab at Joe’s question in the meantime? If we get the idea wrong, someone should feel free to correct us.

  354. What must a person do to be saved? Everyone sets standards for salvation, and we judge others according to our own personal and denominational standard…

    This post is being cut short because it was cut and pasted from another source.

    Mstep, if you are quoting from another source, please cite the source. Cutting and pasting into a blog without giving reference to your source material is plagiarizing. It’s especially annoying when it’s an entire article that goes on and on. If you want people to read that post, just give the URL and people will go there and read it.

    Thanks,
    The Blog Administrators

  355. Gotta share this…

    A friend noted yesterday that Johnny Robertson has said a few times that he doesn’t eat in restaurants that serve alcohol.

    Okay well, most of us have seen the new commercial for Bojangles featuring the members of a real Baptist church in Statesville singing that chain’s jingle.

    So my friend is wondering:

    Are Johnny Robertson and his “Church of Christ” cult now boycotting Bojangles chicken, since Bojangles is obviously in league with the Baptists?!

    Wouldn’t eating there violate the principles of the “Church of Christ”, since there is no doubt that it is a restaurant which is “out of fellowship”, LOL! :-P

  356. I think that the people who categorize the CoC as a cult, are people who are afraid of the fact that it isn’t easy to achieve god’s grace.

    They are the ones getting frustrated and actually acting really unchristian like. They’re getting impatient, rude, sarcastic and it seems ironic.

    I only recently started going to a CoC in my neighborhood.
    Another problem I feel people have when judging the CoC is that they have been taught nothing but the doctrines of their church currently. Or they aren’t open to hearing anyone else’s point of view.
    I’ve been to a church which uses musical instruments (which many people don’t understand why it is bad)
    I’ve been to a Jewish Temple
    I’ve been to a Jehovah’s witness’s service
    I’ve been to many catholic services, and my mom was raised catholic as well as much of her family.
    They reason why the CoC has caught my attention and really made a difference is that people really know what they’re talking about.
    Now maybe it depends on the CoC that someone attends. Of course it is going to vary church to church, so maybe I’ve been lucky to be graced by such an amazing group of people.
    Or maybe the people attending CoC experimentally are biased and go to that church having there own ideas stuck in there brain leaving room for only being critical rather then opening up and being receptive.

    But either way, my experience with my church is that you could ask anyone a question you had and they could pull out there bible and show you multiple scriptures of what it says AND explain it in there own thoughts.

    Everyone fully understands it we aren’t just having scriptures and doctrines thrown at us hoping that we may catch a few.

    It’s real and it makes sense. Of course it may be difficult but God’s grace is a privilege I’m not sure people fully understand. To have the gift to have all of your sins forgiven and forgotten is amazing.
    Just let that soak in. If you think of all of the sins you have committed in your lifetime and you think of what it means to just completely wash them away, its mind-blowing.
    And it isn’t easy to follow the word of God, but you can’t achieve salvation your way. You achieve salvation God’s way. You can’t pick and choose things to believe because its comfortable to you.

    Just so you guys don’t have to read a really long post, I have some answers to some of the questions are criticisms that people have been talking about that ill post a separately

  357. To answer the question to the use of Mechanical Instruments in church you can look at
    Ephesians 5:19; speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody (this is a new king james version bible)

    and

    Colossians 3:16; Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord

    And if you don’t believe these scriptures from this bible, or you have doubts (which you shouldn’t considering they are directly from the bible.)
    When people use big bands and mechanical instruments you take away from the actual service and understanding of Christ.
    When church is no longer about studying the bible and it turns into entertainment it’s wrong.
    My experience with churches with mechanical instruments such as guitars, drums, keyboard etc. is that these are the churches with generic songs with little meaning.
    I don’t mean to generalize all churches with a band into this category.

    However, what do mechanical instruments do to benefit you other then to further entertain you, maybe keep you from being bored during service.
    But singing hymns that come directly from the bible and mean something when you sing them glorifies Christ.

    (sorry if there are typos by the way, people make mistakes =])

    also in reference to people having to be baptized.
    walkinginlove was very critical of Kelly who mentioned you had to be baptized to be saved.

    Kelly mentioned Acts 2:38 and walkinginlove responded with the following (very condescending I might add)

    “Really is that the only verse in the Bible???”

    well i’d like to show her/him a few more examples.

    Acts 10:48; And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.

    Matthew 28:19; “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,”

    Mark 16:15 And He said to them. “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.”
    16 “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

    1st Peter 3:21; There is also an antitype which now saves us-baptism(not the removal of the filth of the flesh but the answer of a good conscience toward God.) through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

    there are a lot more but these are the easiest to understand and self-explanatory.

    hope this helps walkinginlove

  358. On April 11, 2009 at 9:40 pm REB Said:

    I think that the people who categorize the CoC as a cult, are people who are afraid of the fact that it isn’t easy to achieve god’s grace.

    Jesus said my Yoke is easy!

    They are the ones getting frustrated and actually acting really unchristian like. They’re getting impatient, rude, sarcastic and it seems ironic.

    They are the ones being harassed to try and cause them to stumble, Jesus said woah be it to you if you cause a little one to stumble. We are God’s children and thus little ones!

    I only recently started going to a CoC in my neighborhood.

    Wonderful we are glad you are in fellowship with other believes right up to the point where you start to learn to judge in the CoC style! For example the CoC judge all those from about 200ad to when Jesus returns who are not in a CoC church to be condemned to hell, if you join in that judgment and one person who is judged makes it to heaven you will be guilty of hypocritical judgment, since you will be judged at a salvation level as you have judged what is your fate then?

    Another problem I feel people have when judging the CoC is that they have been taught nothing but the doctrines of their church currently. Or they aren’t open to hearing anyone else’s point of view.

    The CoC live under the myth that they are the one true church handed down from Acts thus to change any view they have because of a non-CoC influance will cost them their salvation, thus if they change they give up that salvation and are no longer teaching the original doctrine.

    Example, Cornelius is clearly saved before Peter arrives, his prayers are a memorial to God, how is a man who at that moment is hell bound should he die have his prayers declared by the angel to be a memorial to God, especially when the CoC claim that nobody’s prayers are heard except the CoCs? Peter in his preaching confirms they already know about Jesus! Yet because he must be baptized he is not saved till water touches him!

    The Thief on the cross dies after Jesus and after the Veil is torn, thus signifying the New Relationship with God has begun, yet the CoC claim he died under the old covenant thus saying to us that Jesus falsely claimed “It is finished!”

    I’ve been to a church which uses musical instruments (which many people don’t understand why it is bad)

    It was so bad that when Jesus told the story about the prodigal son he has music playing in celebration at the return of the lost son who was dead to the father and now is alive! So Jesus includes music in the celebration of a lost son returning to the father, yet it is bad??????

    I’ve been to a Jewish Temple
    I’ve been to a Jehovah’s witness’s service
    I’ve been to many catholic services, and my mom was raised catholic as well as much of her family.

    Have you told her she is going to hell yet? If not then you are not being a good CoCer! But then again those same Catholics put the Bible together that you use today!

    They reason why the CoC has caught my attention and really made a difference is that people really know what they’re talking about.

    The Pharisees memorized the Old Testament yet they were blind to who Jesus was! Have they taught you the doctrine of second marriages having to divorce and return to their previous partner yet? It is from Ezra 10 a passage that was about the racial and religious purity of the Jewish nation. Those people sent away non-Jews to remain pure both in race and faith. Both of these reasons are canceled out in the New Testament, we are all equal gentile and jew in Gods eyes now, and a someone who is married to a non-believer should stay married to them according to Paul. Thus the reasons to send away wives in children are canceled out in the NT, yet they yoke that to people because of the need to give an answer for second marriages that are not covered in the Bible in the New Testament. One could argue that since Paul suggests that slaves who are saved remain slaves that since this is true second marriages should remain in place to limit more harm coming to additional children! But who am I to argue with those who know so much!

    Now maybe it depends on the CoC that someone attends.

    Yes it does greatly! Many are much more open to grace and less tuned to the legalistic contest to see who can be the greatest pharisee!

    Of course it is going to vary church to church, so maybe I’ve been lucky to be graced by such an amazing group of people.

    The test will be if you disagree with the teaching of their elders in a matter, if they are hard line they will kick you to the curb faster then you can say see ya! This site is dedicated to those super hypercons!

    Or maybe the people attending CoC experimentally are biased and go to that church having there own ideas stuck in there brain leaving room for only being critical rather then opening up and being receptive.

    In a hypercon church you better tow the line or you are out of the kingdom!

    But either way, my experience with my church is that you could ask anyone a question you had and they could pull out there bible and show you multiple scriptures of what it says AND explain it in there own thoughts.

    And the Pharisees knew the Bible for a living and yet did not see Jesus for who he was, head knowledge is important but without the guiding of the Spirit and the ability to exercise grace and mercy it is wasted knowledge! I hope that your Church is different, btw if you were in a hard line church you would be corrected that it was the Lord’s Church not your church! ;)

    Everyone fully understands it we aren’t just having scriptures and doctrines thrown at us hoping that we may catch a few.

    Go ask them what the perfect is that Paul talks about when the gifts are gone, if they answer the Bible then have them explain how Paul would see the Bible in his lifetime since it would not be completed text wise till after his death, and only fully put together in another couple centuries later! If they answer that with a passage that involves a mirror then ask them when Paul read the complete Bible? But be warned since it is the passage that people use to justify the gifts being gone you may have some trouble on your hands!

    It’s real and it makes sense. Of course it may be difficult but God’s grace is a privilege I’m not sure people fully understand. To have the gift to have all of your sins forgiven and forgotten is amazing.

    Each doctrine that is taught makes since to those teaching and those hearing, it is why the doctrines exist! So what are you doing to work out your own salvation? I see you having to get people to explain your salvation to you in your post!

    Just let that soak in. If you think of all of the sins you have committed in your lifetime and you think of what it means to just completely wash them away, its mind-blowing.

    Did the water or Jesus blood wash away your sins?

    And it isn’t easy to follow the word of God, but you can’t achieve salvation your way. You achieve salvation God’s way. You can’t pick and choose things to believe because its comfortable to you.

    Ah so everyone who does not believe as you do is taking the easy road? That we somehow do not read the Bible? Tell me how are the baptisms done relate to the Atonement practice in Leviticus? When Peter offered the killers of Christ a chance to be saved do you understand that they were going from killers to priests per Leviticus? They were contacting the sacrifice like the Priest did in the yearly atonement!

    Just so you guys don’t have to read a really long post, I have some answers to some of the questions are criticisms that people have been talking about that ill post a separately

    If you are pure CoC have seen them before! ;)

  359. On April 11, 2009 at 10:28 pm REB Said:

    To answer the question to the use of Mechanical Instruments in church you can look at
    Ephesians 5:19; speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody (this is a new king james version bible)

    And the word for making melody is qallontev:

    1) to pluck off, pull out
    2) to cause to vibrate by touching, to twang
    2a) to touch or strike the chord, to twang the strings of a musical
    instrument so that they gently vibrate
    2b) to play on a stringed instrument, to play, the harp, etc.
    2c) to sing to the music of the harp

    2d) in the NT to sing a hymn, to celebrate the praises of God in song

    All the above meanings before the NT was about a musical instrument, the meaning of the word had to be altered to make the passage work!

    Add to this the fact that the early church did not need to draw attention to itself since in many places they were hunted people, that they also met mostly in homes and thus there was little room for them let alone the musical instruments.

    There are examples of music in the OT, an example of music being used in the celebration of a lost soul returning to the father, and music in heaven, but because it does not say “play a flute” then you say you are going to hell for it! Jesus sure did set us up by using that example of music in the return of the prodigal son to God huh?

    Colossians 3:16; Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord

    So when do you speak or sing Spiritual Songs as in the language of Angels?

    And if you don’t believe these scriptures from this bible, or you have doubts (which you shouldn’t considering they are directly from the bible.)

    And there is nothing BCV wise that says “If thou use a mechanical instrument thou art condemned to hell”!!

    When people use big bands and mechanical instruments you take away from the actual service and understanding of Christ.

    I have yet to feel my understanding to be lowered of Christ, can you give BCV of that effect for bands?

    When church is no longer about studying the bible and it turns into entertainment it’s wrong.

    The Church of Acts did not study the Bible as we have it today, they studies the Old Testament and were given the word from the Lord directly from the Holy Spirit through his gifts! Are you that church????

    My experience with churches with mechanical instruments such as guitars, drums, keyboard etc. is that these are the churches with generic songs with little meaning.

    Can you give me BCV where is says the words of a song will change meaning based on a band playing?

    I don’t mean to generalize all churches with a band into this category.

    You just did, to now back away from that statement is not being a true CoCer!

    However, what do mechanical instruments do to benefit you other then to further entertain you, maybe keep you from being bored during service.

    So being board is service honor’s God how?

    But singing hymns that come directly from the bible and mean something when you sing them glorifies Christ.

    So you sing hymns directly from Psalms only then? OR do you have a hymnal? And where is that authorized in the Bible? After all it did not say sing from reading a Hymnal did it?

    (sorry if there are typos by the way, people make mistakes =])

    Not my pet peeve and we are used to it by now! ;)

    also in reference to people having to be baptized.

    Now how about you do a study on the word seal!

    walkinginlove was very critical of Kelly who mentioned you had to be baptized to be saved.

    Water is the only way to be saved? There are no examples of people being in good standing with God before a bath? Thief on the Cross, Cornelius they don’t count right?

    Kelly mentioned Acts 2:38 and walkinginlove responded with the following (very condescending I might add)

    “Really is that the only verse in the Bible???”

    well i’d like to show her/him a few more examples.

    Acts 10:48; And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.

    Matthew 28:19; “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,”

    So Jesus was wrong then? The Father and Holy Spirit are not really to be named in baptism? IS Peter greater then the Master?

    Mark 16:15 And He said to them. “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.”
    16 “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

    First I am starting to research to see if the longer ending of Mark appears about the time the Orthodox Church is kicking out the spirit filled people, since having them drink poison would be a great way to do away with those in opposition to them and since I find no examples of poison being taken in the early church I find it odd this would be stated. Paul did not handle snakes but was bitten by one and lived. That is the only example of snakes but he did not handle it, he was bitten by it!

    The Longer Ending of Mark is contested by Bible Scholars to its authenticity thus should not be given a huge amount of weight, but then again it does not say, those who are baptized not will be damned!

    1st Peter 3:21; There is also an antitype which now saves us-baptism(not the removal of the filth of the flesh but the answer of a good conscience toward God.) through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

    Not the washing of the filth of the flesh? You mean the water doesn’t do anything? And the example Peter gives the people who went under the water all died in Noah’s time! It was the ark that saved them not the water!

    there are a lot more but these are the easiest to understand and self-explanatory.

    hope this helps walkinginlove

    I’ve been baptized, but it is Jesus blood that did the cleansing not the water!

  360. ok to walkinginlove
    I’m not going to answer everything right at the moment because I’m going to bed.
    But about the part where i commented about people being condescending, sarcastic etc.
    You stated: They are the ones being harassed to try and cause them to stumble

    I think that is incredibly ironic considering you are on a blog (or discussion) by choice that concerns the CoC.
    If you don’t want to be “harassed” about what the CoC believes in then personally i would avoid discussion groups that are for the purpose to discuss these exact beliefs.
    You are also the one forcing your beliefs down the people of the CoC by criticizing every single thing anyone says.

    And by the way i never stated I was a complete “CoCer” as you put it.
    Like i told you i’ve only been going to the church for a short period of time.
    I was explaining what i understood of it, and i thought it would be refreshing to have a persons point of view that hadn’t been in the church for there whole life.

    Just wanted to remind you of that.

  361. And Reb you have to understand that the people you fellowship with, if they are hypercons, condemn all other believers and believe they are going to hell. If they are right then the people who put the bible together who were calling themselves Catholics also are hell bound!

    As for the thief if they start with the death of the testator speech remind them that Jesus is dead before the thief thus Hebrews only confirms the Thief in the New Testament! They will attempt to show otherwise!

  362. BTW since Johnny has trotted out a new defense against the Thief being in the New Testament let me add a reply to that. JR said the thief never repented, the bible clearly shows both thieves rebuking Jesus in Matthew and Mark, then in Luke the second thief says remember me!

    Whos wrong? OR is it they are all correct and the thief had a change of heart, thus repenting!

    JR says the thief did not believe in the risen Christ, how is it a man can say remember me to a dying man and not believe he would be alive after the cross? A dead man does not remember you nor enter a kingdom! Thus the thief believes Jesus will be alive!

  363. BCV,

    Thanks for the notification. But it was written in ALL CAPS. Can’t approve it.

    And remember when I told you writing in ALL CAPS was like yelling, and that’s why I didn’t it want it on the blog? I wrote that in ALL CAPS to make the point. I’m not saying you can NEVER do the ALL CAPS thing, JUST NOT ALL THE TIME. Although, considering who/what you represent, you very well might be yelling all the time, too. It’s certainly a possibility.

    Point received?

    ACOC

  364. walkinginlove, I’m just wondering, have you been to a Church of Christ before?

    this isn’t meant to be sarcastic or anything. I’m just wondering.

  365. A few people have written to inform me that Sunday night, Johnny Robertson trotted out “evidence” that his “Church of Christ” predates the Baptist churches. One person said he was having his own denomination going back to the late 1600s.

    Looks like it’s time for a history lesson…

    The Waldensians – Trace their heritage back to founding by Peter Waldo around 1177. Emphasized personal study of scriptures and rejected any doctrine not found in the Bible, and gradually adopted the then-radical concept of believer’s baptism.

    The Moravian church – Formalized in 1457, years after founder Jan Hus was burned at the stake as a “heretic” in 1415. Considered by many to be the first “Protestant” movement a hundred years before the time of Martin Luther.

    The Anabaptist movement – Began coalescing in the early 1500s.

    Mennonites/Amish – Originated in the 1530s as an offshoot of the Anabaptists.

    Presbyterianism – Began in Scotland in the mid 1500s.

    The Baptist churches – Started around 1600, first Baptist church in America (still existing) founded by Roger Williams in 1638.

    Methodism – Began as a group of Oxford students holding Bible studies in 1729, “Methodist” originated as a pejorative term by those who looked down upon the group.

    Churches of Christ – Started with Barton Stone and Alexander Campbell in 1832. Were not united on what to call their new denomination (Stone wanted “Christians” and Campbell wanted “Disciples of Christ”). Ultimately split into “Disciples of Christ” and “Church of Christ”.

    The so-called “Church of Christ” of Johnny Robertson and James Oldfield – An extremely small minority that has nothing to do with the mainstream Churches of Christ. The local cult calling itself “Church of Christ” traces its doctrine to the early teachings of Daniel Sommer and Carl Ketcherside. Both Sommer and Ketcherside later recanted their original beliefs, with Ketcherside going so far as to say that baptism “need not be for the remission of sins” and that the issue of musical instruments in worship was not what Christ came to earth for. Sommer spent his last years preaching fellowship with all followers of Christ, even those apart from the “Churches of Christ” denomination, and said that “Brotherly love is as much a command as ‘repent and be baptized’.” For this, Sommer was disowned by his own family, who had clung to hyper-legalism.

    So what we have at work in this area, is a very tiny group of individuals whose only spiritual ancestry goes back to around 1890, and the teachings of which were later repudiated by its very founders as being un-Christ-like and a false doctrine at odds with Christian harmony.

    Sommers and Ketcherside both later expressed immense grief at the division and strife that they had caused in the name of “unity”.

    Will Johnny Robertson and James Oldfield and their followers ever feel the same regarding the horrible things they have done and are still doing?

    Daniel Sommer himself said that…

    “The strainers have all come to grief sooner or later.”

    Unless Robertson, Oldfield and their followers repent of their ways, they will come to the same end.

  366. On April 13, 2009 at 11:07 pm REB Said:

    walkinginlove, I’m just wondering, have you been to a Church of Christ before?

    this isn’t meant to be sarcastic or anything. I’m just wondering.

    I attend a church that belongs to Christ every week. I also meet in a home to have church!

    As for my relationship with the CoC, They came to see me and after 45 minutes of lively talk they gave up and left since they could not frighten me into their beliefs. Are talk was before I started studying them and theology to get a handle on what was causing the body of Christ to seek war against itself.

    The root cause is that we as a group have defellowshiped with anyone who opposes us, this is not just a “denominational” issue it is a CoC (who are a denomination fyi) issue also, the items for breaking relationship are different but the root cause is the same.

    Thus we have church groups who are polarized completely in their views without a balancing contrasting point of view to keep them between the lines. Some are way to liberal, some are way to conservative. Purity vs grace has been a battle waged since the beginning of the church.

    The Donalists broke with Rome over the issue of forgiveness of sins. Thus the war began and it has continued to this day, taking different forms and having different issues but it is still the same fight, the purity group sees themselves as perfectly holding to the important commands and decrying everyone who does not do the same, the grace group say restoration is the true mission of the church and sometime get off into anything goes viewpoints.

    Actually Paul and Barnabas fought this battle first even before the Church did, they separated also, both believing they were right and the other wrong. Paul placing the mission above the restoration of a follower, Barnabas arguing that restoration was the mission! They were both right and both wrong at the same time! Paul was right not wanting to risk the mission, Barnabas was right that restoration of a believer was the mission. They were both wrong simply because it appears that God was not involved in this argument but only their human nature.

    So we fight the same battles our fathers fought and have learned nothing from their actions! Place people together who stress purity with people who stress grace and both groups willing to allow the other to speak into their views even when it hurts to balance them and you have a healthy church, without that you have a partially functional church that is prone to spin out of balance and cause undo harm to others!

    So what is the mission of the Church REB, is it purity, or is it grace or is it both? If it is both and I believe it is, what people in the church you attend operate in support of that view?

  367. Chris, I have read much of this and done research moons ago on both men. What you stated is true of SommerS and Ketcherside. I have read much of Ketchersides work.

    Given the facts that each group above has beginning, could not Johnny use this to support his view? After all, he doesnt say he is from the Stone/Campbell movement. He sites that the church began in biblical days – was the church started when Peter preached in Acts 2?

  368. Robertson’s cult indeed has its roots with the teachings of Sommer and Ketcherside, no matter how he might claim otherwise.

    What I wonder is, does it matter at all to him that both Sommer and Ketcherside each made a courageous move by repenting of the erroneous, divisive teachings of their younger days?

    As for claiming that his church began in biblical days?

    Nonsense. Ridiculous. And it is extremely arrogant to boast such a thing.

    There exists today no organized body of Christian believers that has a founding chronicled in the New Testament. No one can possibly say that “my church” has an unbroken lineage stretching all the way back to the First Century A.D.

    The only possible exceptions are some Christian churches that exist today in western India that trace their ancestry back to being founded by the apostle Andrew, and of course the Coptic Church which hails from the return of the eunuch to Ethiopia.

    But the body of Christ – the universal church composed of all who follow Him – has endured through the centuries however. Some of those followers at various times have been called “Baptists” or “Methodists” or “non-denominational” or “Pentecostal”, or “Catholic” or “Orthodox”… and yes, even many members of the “Churches of Christ”

    The earthly appelations do not matter. Neither do they bestow any virtue. God and God alone knows who follows Him, and “denominations” don’t matter to Him.

    But that the hyper-legalist cult in this area calling itself “Church of Christ”, which does not even fellowship with the legitimate Churche of Christ? That it could be the real New Testament church come to us?

    No.

    Robertson, Oldfield and their followers cannot produce evidence that their cult is that.

    We don’t even need the absence of evidence to know that. Their actions do not reflect Christ or the Christian life as it’s described in scripture.

    The “Church of Christ” represented locally by Robertson and Oldfield are an abberant offshoot of the mistakes of two earlier men, who themselves came to realize the error of their original teachings.

  369. have we stopped yelling at spelling
    chris misssssspelled

    chris last post
    Churche of Christ? That it could be the real New Testament church come to us?

    be fair nathan you let all them for months pick at my spelling

  370. chris words
    Churches of Christ – Started with Barton Stone and Alexander Campbell in 1832. Were not united on what to call their new denomination (Stone wanted “Christians” and Campbell wanted “Disciples of Christ”). Ultimately split into “Disciples of Christ” and “Church of Christ”.

    Yet I showed a Baptist book that lies about Baptist origins… I have the book at great expense… it list that the churches that Baptist try to include are in fact calling themselves churches of Christ

    lies about history…. who would have ever thought
    Chris is no historian

    I have the books from England and you are just out of your field just like when we all talk Bible

    it reminds of me of Diane Odell!

  371. chris said
    We can “preach Jesus” until we’re blue in the face and hoarse from talk, but ultimately it is our hearts which will preach Christ, not our tongues. Our actions will show others that He is at work in our lives, not our words.

    now chris can do the exact things I do and calim he has love but I dont

    examine

    he “chased” me with camera
    he tried to debate me
    he lied on TV (said he was going to answer me and then put his latest film on
    he calls me all kinds of names
    he falsely (satire)? accuses me on his website
    he never gets facts right when reporting on my activities

    Yet on here he is the hero

    I can’t believe Nathan lets him stay

    I guess as long as he doesn’t use those horrible all caps he can do whatever and love you

  372. chris said this was the founder of baptist
    The Baptist churches – Started around 1600, first Baptist church in America (still existing) founded by Roger Williams in 1638.

    here is what is written about Williams

    http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/creeds1.x.vi.html

    He was a pious, zealous, unselfish, kind-hearted, but eccentric, ‘conscientiously contentions,’ and impracticable genius, a real troubler in Israel, who could not get along with any body but himself; and this accounts for his troubles, which, however, were overruled for good. Cotton Mather compared him to a windmill, which, by its rapid motion in consequence of a violent storm, became so intensely heated that it took fire and endangered the whole town.

    Pursued out of his land by Bishop Laud, as he says, he emigrated with a heavy heart, in company with his wife Mary, to the colony of Massachusetts,

    that an oath ought not to be tendered to an unregenerate man;

    that a regenerate man ought not to pray with the unregenerate, though it be his wife or child;

    that a man ought not to give thanks after the sacrament nor after meat. He was unwilling to retract, and advised his church to withdraw from communion with the other churches of the colony, ‘as full of anti-Christian pollution.

    thanks for helping us see how Baptist were chris

  373. notice how baptist try to rewrite history

    this tract is titled that it from seven churches of christ (unjustly called anabaptist) and when a baptist writes about them he calls them baptist

    see below
    “This gave rise to a Confession of Faith, on the part of seven London churches, with an Epistle Dedicatory to the two houses of Parliament. It appeared in 1644 (three years before the Westminster Confession), and again with some additions and changes in 1646, under the title,
    ‘A Confession of Faith of Seven Congregations or Churches of Christ in London, which are commonly (but unjustly) called Anabaptists.’

    Printed in Underhill’s Collection, pp. 11–48.
    The title-pages, which are all given by Underhill, slightly differ in the three editions of 1644, ’46, and ’51. I have before me a copy of the fourth ed., London, 1652, which has been for more than two hundred years in the family of the Rev. Dr. Holme, a Baptist clergyman of New York. It has the same title as the third ed., but, only fifty-one Articles; Art. XXXVIII., on the support of the ministry by the congregation, being omitted. This document consists of fifty-two (51) Articles, and shows that in all important doctrines and principles, except on the sacraments and Church government, the Baptists agreed with the orthodox Reformed Churches.

    note the last sentence… he calls them baptist when they refused to be so-called by themselves

    this shows the dishonesty i also show in Rise of Baptist in Virginia by Semple

    the churches list themselves as churches of christ but modern day baptist try and make them baptist by falsification

  374. From the website that Robertson cited…

    “That baptism ought to be received by none, but such as can give a good account of their faith; and in case any have been baptized in their infancy, that they ought to he re-baptized after they come to years of discretion, before they are to be admitted to the Baptist church.”

    Actually, I changed “Church of Christ” in the above statement to “Baptist church”.

    Note that doing so makes no difference at all between these alleged “Churches of Christ” of the 1520s and the Anabaptist movement of the same era, from which the modern Baptist churches originated.

    In fact “Anabaptist” is a term that means “re-baptized”.

    So I suppose that Mr. Robertson has just demonstrated that there were Baptists operating in Great Britain in the early sixteenth century, regardless of whether or not they actually called themselves “Baptist”.

    “A rose by any other name…” aye?

    And what Robertson has neglected to mention is that Roger Williams was thrown out of Massachusetts because the Puritans of the Plymouth colony were too rigid and legalistic, and they couldn’t tolerate or have fellowship with him.

    Sound familiar?

  375. And I suppose that logically, if those were Christians that we would recognize as modern-day Baptists in the 1520s, that if they were ever referred to as “Churches of Christ”, then that means the Baptist churches today only need to put “Church of Christ” beneath “Baptist” on their church signs, without changing anything else at all of their worship services, and this should be acceptable to the Robertson cult.

    I mean, all this is really about is a name on a church sign, isn’t it?

  376. Chris, you are a clever writer, I will grant you that. I mean, you spin things pretty good knowing the rebuttal before it comes your way.

    What church did Jesus make? And, I am not referring to church signs on the lawn. When God added daily to the church, was this the church that belongs to Christ – the church of Christ?

    How does one enter into this church? Mere faith alone?

    Does faith act in obedience to Gods commands?

    Did Peter follow Jesus command to preach the gospel and baptized them that believed?

    Did the message Peter preach make Christians – followers of Christ.

    Did they not belong to Christ after their faith was expressed through repentance and baptism?

    Was not this the church that belongs to Christ – the church of Christ?

  377. Hebrews 5:9
    And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him

    it is God’s will that we be baptized into Christ for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38). Jesus Himself commanded baptism (Mark 16:16) and it is part of making disciples of Christ (Matt. 28:19). Once a believer has been baptized, he or she is added to the church (Acts 2:47) and is an heir to the promise (Gal. 3:26-29).

    On the occasion of Matthew 16:18, Jesus promised to build His church. He said, “Upon this rock I will build my church.” Note that Jesus promised to build “a” church. Acts 2:47 reveals that the church promised by Christ was built: “Praising God, and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.” To which church were the saved added? Obviously, they were added to the Lord’s church, the church of (the one belonging to) Christ. Therefore, there was a church which existed in the first century which belonged to the Lord, and that church was not a denomination

  378. Chris,since it was possible to be a member of the Lord’s church, the church of Christ, in the first century without joining any denomination, why would such not be possible today? The Scriptures teach that it is possible to be a member of the Lord’s church without being a member of any denomination. So when one says, “I am a member of the church of Christ,” he is not saying that he is a member of a denomination; rather, he is saying that he is a member of the church Jesus built””the one that is found in the New Testament.

  379. The church of Christ today requires nothing more or less to be a member of the church than what was required in the first century. On the day of Pentecost, the day the Lord’s church began, sinners asked, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” (Acts 2:37). Peter then told the people to “repent and be baptized”¦for the remission of sins” (Acts 2:38). Acts 2:41 confirms that about 3,000 were baptized, and verse 47 shows that they were “added” to the church. The same process by which sinners were saved is the very process by which they became members of Christ’s church. It should also be noted that the New Testament nowhere authorizes voting to see if one can become a member of the church. Voting on church membership did not originate with God, but with man. The New Testament teaches that when one hears the Gospel (Romans 10:17), believes the Gospel (Acts 15:7), repents of sins (Acts 2:38), confesses faith in Christ (Romans 10:10), and is baptized for the forgiveness of sins (Acts 22:16) he is added to the Lord’s church. This does not make one a member of a denomination; this makes one a member of the church of Christ!

  380. The church of Christ is not a denomination, but what is it? The word church simply means, “the called out.” The term is used in the New Testament to refer to the people who have been “called out” of the world into a relationship with Christ. God calls us by the Gospel, for Paul wrote, “Whereunto he called you by our gospel” (2 Thessalonians 2:14). Those who hear and OBEY the Gospel are “delivered from the power of darkness” and are “translated into the kingdom (the church)” of Christ (Colossians 1:13).

  381. Randy, I just had to ask a new contributor of our board to cite references when making lengthy quotations. If a comment is material that is not original to you, ethically, you must cite the source of that article.

    Your last couple of posts were cut and pasted from http://the7ones.com/what-is-the-church-of-christ/. That is fine, but please cite the source. Otherwise it is plagiarizing.

    Thanks,
    ACOC

  382. Why type something or reword it, if it is already is written? I could have diced it up and reworded it….made it my own…sort of like you and others do. To saved space, I will just provide the link from here forward.

    BTW, we all use other material…we all do this. I have seen others on here copy/paste…hadn’t noticed them being called out.

    Johnny is right, you guys have two set of rules on here. Apply this rule to everyone here. I KNOW for a fact that others have done the same thing. That is what copy/paste is for….( saves time ) you guys are too touchy over some things. Nobody’s material is really “original” its just that SOME chose to rewrite the wording “as if it were their own”……its almost funny seeing how you, truth, and WIL cant even use your real names….but YOU then want to come down on me for this…get real ( Nathan ) :)

  383. Randy, don’t be so sensitive. I didn’t say you had to reword or dice something up. I said you should put a reference when you cut and paste large chunks of someone else’s material. Do you know you can be expelled from many schools for not doing that? It’s just ethics, plain and simple.

    And don’t tell me that I don’t apply it to everyone. I do, when I spot it. Don’t believe me? Look at the material that MStep was referencing (he’s the last person I asked to put a reference). He’s not from the hypercon camp at all.

    It’s just common courtesy to not take someone else’s words and claim them as your own.

  384. Hi (4th or 5th request, I have forgotten now),

    What does the Church of Christ believe about Jesus from Creation (Gen.1:1) until Advent (Luke 1:26)??

    It would seem to me that it would be better to teach about the Godhead than to be going down the importance list to being baptized by total immersion into something you don’t even really understand because no one has taught you who Jesus really is!!

    1. God the Father
    2. The Lord Jesus Christ
    3. The Holy Spirit
    4. The validity of the OT
    5. The validity of the NT
    6. The reasons for accepting the validity of the OT & NT.
    7. Remember that the people who received the Word in Acts 2:38 where Jewish who already knew and indeed had to memorize the OT especially the first 5 books.
    8. They already were very knowledgable of God Almighty, of the prophecies about the Messiah, and the move of the Holy Spirit in the Tabernacle, the Temple, the Kings, and the Prophets.
    9. The people who heard Acts 2:38 were already very prepared and knowledgable about what was needed to Hear and Believe.

    10. The elders and the ministers need to spend most of their time teaching every position leading up to Acts 2:38!!! And based upon the readings here on this chatline above it is not being done here and I suspect no where else.

    11. Why?? Because the elders and the ministers have not been taught the proper priorities of the teachings of the church.

    12. Now, back to my original question: What does the Church of Christ believe about Jesus from Creation (Gen.1:1) until Advent (Luke 1:26)??

    sincerely,

    joe d phillips
    columbus, ohio

  385. It seems Randy has made a new friend on the7ones blog name Matt who could almost be Johnny’s twin. I have found that Matt like’s to leave Bible verses out that don’t fit his agenda, Matt likes to call Christians lost or condemned who don’t believe everything exactly as he does, when Matt is asked a question that doesn’t fit his agenda he won’t answer. From what I have observed in Matt’s comments he is very arrogant and isn’t looking to make people Christians but to make them mini Matt’s. Looks like Johnny has some competition. Is Matt Randy’s hero or is Johnny still his hero? Maybe if Matt shows he and his friends harass elderly women at their homes to the point the elderly women feel they have pull a gun out to get them to leave maybe that will sway Randy his way more.

  386. Well guys, I am throwing in the towel. I understand Jason Hairston’s ( former cofC preacher ) frustration with religion, now. No wonder he left.

    If Jesus created a church where anything goes, then have it ! Because, it makes no sense at all to pretend we all are part of “the church” while we all disagree on so many levels.

    The bible speaks of a church that worshiped the same way in each assembly. The bible speaks of teachers like Paul who taught the same things in all churches. And calls for them to not teach contrary doctrines. And to do so, would be teaching falsely.

    Where is such a church????!!!

    If you guys want to deceive yourself and pretend this is all ok, have at it ! I will not pretend this is all find and dandy, and agree to disagree. Did Jesus want a body going all different directions with doctrine, while claiming they all follow Him? What foolishness!

    No wonder people don’t want to go to church. Look in the phone book, how would one decide which church belongs to Jesus, seeing each one has doctrine contrary to the other?

    You guys keep pretending this is all ok…………NOT ME !!!!!!! I am finished with this !!!!

    -Randy

  387. Truth, I have read Matt’s material for sometime now…could even provide you with a list of others to attack, if you so desire. You find it so bad of Matt, Johnny and others to do the very same thing you do……….so Christ like, aren’t you? Have fun “brother”

  388. I know of no plainer way to put it than this…

    Jesus did not come to set up any earthly organization.

    Jesus did come to preach the Kingdom of Heaven.

    The “Church of Christ” is temporal. The ekklesia that is made up of all believers in Christ through the centuries – regardless of what they have been called – is enduring and eternal.

    And so far as water baptism being “necessary” for salvation, we have gone over this many times already: there is no verse that commands we be baptized or else we be damned. Not a single one at all.

    Paul himself said that “Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel” (1st Corinthians 1:17). If baptism was absolutely required, then Paul would have said tht Christ sent him to baptize… but he did not!

    And the very last reference to baptism at all in the entire Bible is found in 1st Peter 3:21, when Peter tell us that “and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also — not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God“.

    Was Peter wrong also? Earlier he spoke of being baptized for the remission of sins… but it’s exceedingly clear that at the time he was either directing his remarks toward a Jewish audience which needed to be given a ceremonial break from the law and into Christ, or he was referring to baptism of the Holy Spirit. Which is is obviously talking about here, and of which water baptism is merely a symbol.

    I have yet to see the local “Church of Christ” cult address these scriptural concerns in either a satisfactory or sane manner, without resorting to attempted misdirection and childish insults.

    Water baptism is not needed for salvation. Those that demand it to be so are consciously inferring that it is and “picking and choosing” their scripture, out of of their own selfish desire of wanting to be the ones controlling baptism.

    (And I wrote all of that myself without any cutting and pasting :) )

  389. Randy said: The bible speaks of a church that worshiped the same way in each assembly. The bible speaks of teachers like Paul who taught the same things in all churches. And calls for them to not teach contrary doctrines. And to do so, would be teaching falsely.

    Reply: Paul speaking about their ministries said there are differences of ministries, but the same Lord.

    1 Corinthians 12:4-6 “There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works in all.”

  390. “how would one decide which church belongs to Jesus, seeing each one has doctrine contrary to the other?”

    Well, that one’s easy…

    Is a group of believers demonstrating a sincere love toward others as Christ loved them also? Are they seeking after Him because they want to, not because they feel they have to out of legalistic obligation?

    If they are, then that church belongs to Jesus, no matter what the name of the church sign on the outside says.

    The “doctrine” is nothing compared to the greatest commandment: “Love one another”.

    This is what the local “Church of Christ” cult has also yet to understand: that it does not possess the one thing that the world might see in it, that the world could recognize as being truly of Christ.

    All that the world sees coming from the “Church of Christ” cult is more legalism, more meaningless doctrine, more wrath, more hate.

    Personally, I can’t think of a more false doctrine than what it is that they are not only preaching, but are also actively practicing in the way of harassment, lying, etc.

  391. Randy,

    I’m sorry you feel that way, and sorry if this blog had anything to do with making you feel that way. However, I would just like to remind you that there are millions of Christians out there who manage to live in unity but understanding that there are different ways of interpreting different Scripture passages. And they’re okay with that.

    But if you choose to turn from God because you can’t accept that His children are flawed, you’ll have to live with that decision. But personally, I think this is a despair that comes out of the pharisaical teachings of people like our hyperconservative friends. When one doesn’t live by grace, and one lives depending upon ones own good works to earn a spot in heaven, one is bound to be disappointed and disillusioned because none of us are good enough.

    And just to reiterate, nobody is saying “anything goes”, except you. What we are saying is that Paul was very purposeful writing Romans 14 – and Christians ought to live in the spirit of that passage of Scripture. Not “my way or the highway” – which some who post here from time to time have as their unofficial creed.

  392. And if I can just add to what Chris wrote in his last post…

    I have been posting story after story of what other “church of Christ” assemblies do to reach out to their communities that definitely communicates the love of Christ. These churches might disagree with people in their community theologically, but their actions speak volumes.

    They don’t exhibit this ridiculously Talibanesque “I love you so much I will defeat destroy you” nonsense, but they really roll up their sleeves and help where help is needed. Look through some of those stories to which I’ve linked.

  393. Are there qualifications for an Elder? Or, can we change that to “anything”

    Does Paul say he taught the same things in all churches?

    Does he not also condemn those who teach contrary doctrine?

    I ask the church of Christ for a list of doctrines we all should agree upon, do you or anyone here have such a list? I will save you the time and make your list for you.

    1. Do as you understand. Grace will cover every misunderstanding.

    Now bring on the JW’s, Latter day Saints, 7 day Adventist….

    After all, if we can be wrong on doctrine , shouldn’t we give them the same grace on their misunderstandings? You see where this kind of thinking leads. If you can make the case that grace will cover every doctrinal misunderstanding, then you have to extend that to the JW’s, Latter day Saints, 7 day Adventist and a host of other faiths, who SINCERELY are wrong.

    Nathan – whoever you are, this argument doesn’t hold if carried out to its end. If we can be gracefully covered when we live in doctrinal error, then so can everyone else. This is what the emerging church promotes and other movements. It is the next step to universalism.

    If a JW comes to your door, is he your brother? Does he not live in doctrinal error? Or, does God only cover our error and not his? How far are you willing to take this argument? Let me guess. You will have reasons to exclude some in doctrinal error and reasons to include others in doctrinal error.

    Why even meet on Sunday? What is so important about Sunday? Grace should cover our 7 day Adventist on their error, right? Do we pick and choose who grace covers? Is there a standard at all?

  394. Since you’re taking my position to the extreme, let me take the other position to the extreme.

    Everyone else is wrong, damned, unworthy of my attention (except to condemn), unless they agree with my interpretation of Scripture, because my understanding is absolutely, 100% without error.

    If they disagree with me and refuse to come around to my way of thinking, I will humiliate them – drag their names through the mud – defeat and destroy them. I can do this because God is on my side and has given me the joyful burden of being absolutely correct about everything and the righteous calling to stuff it down the throats of anyone within earshot.

    Following is a hyperbolic example of what a message from such a person might look like:

    Below is my 749 points on what you will and will not do, when you will and will not do it, and how you will or will not do it. If you deviate from this, you will be expelled from the fellowship until you have carried an oil drum full of mayonnaise up a steep, muddy hillside for exactly 100 steps, all while crying and saying how sorry you are in Hebrew and Greek. This is all, of course, according to the Holy Book that I have remade in my image.


    Now, obviously, I’ve gone further over the edge than you did on your extreme example, but I hope the point is well made.

    But why even ask for a list? I thought the calling card of the church of Christ is that they are list-less. The Bible is their only creed – their only list. You start making lists, and suddenly you have a manual, which will give Johnny apoplexy.

  395. I agree, each can go to the extreme. Now that we have made points from both sides, where are the lines?

    Rom 14. Is not the best place to make your case, seeing other scriptures point out clearly that Paul taught the same things in all churches and condemned those who taught contrary doctrines.

    Corey Davis and many other have written on Rom 14, it is not a place we can go to excuse our every misunderstanding, if so, then the JWs and others can play this card too.

    I think Matt Clifton lays out some pretty good reasons for disfellowship and a good starting place for unity.

    I know you do not advocate a lifestyle that teaches grace as license, but when you don’t make your position clear, it can be seen that way.

    I have heard Johnny teach at Martinsville on Law, and he doesn’t teach this as you have it here. Meaning he doesn’t teach one is saved by earning favor with God through law. He doesn’t teach justification by law, but does teach that the one justified will obey the law. And he knows we mess up, and he has admitted he has messed up….Noone is advocating perfection.

  396. 1) Love God
    2) Love People
    3) Tell the Good News

    List over!

    Matthew 7:1″Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

    If a Pentecostal, Baptist, CoC, (insert name here), judges that all those who do not hold to the Bible as he/she does is going to hell, they better be right on all those who they judge. For they risk at a salvation level judgment back from God. They better be perfect in their knowledge and application of scripture, because one failure and they are guilty of not holding to scripture and are then in the same boat as those they judged.

  397. Just to respond to the extreme “anything goes” idea being presented here…

    As I’ve said, nobody here is advocating “anything goes”. We hold to the authority of Scripture. It is God’s Word.

    “What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?” Romans 6:1-2

    That makes it pretty clear that you are to do everything in your power to live holy lives. And be grateful every moment that grace is a reality – because it didn’t have to be. God could have kept the old law in place and we’d be sacrificing bulls and pigeons to this day. But he got rid of that old law, and gave us salvation through Christ’s sacrifice and only through Christ’s sacrifice.

    And Randy, you’re right, that you can’t base everything off Romans 14 only – and I’m not saying you can. I’m only saying you can’t ignore Romans 14 (the way some ignore the command to “holy kiss” and then condemn others for ignoring the non-command to not play instruments during worship).

  398. Randy,

    Did you close down your blog? I’m getting a “blog deleted” message when I try to go there.

    Nathan

  399. A friend asked today…

    “Why are Robertson and Oldfield in a church that’s not in the Bible?”

    Her point was the same that has been brought up on this blog and other places several times, and it goes back to what you just mentioned Nathan…

    The local “Church of Christ” that is on WGSR is nothing like any church that’s in the New Testament.

    Their sole doctrine consists of nothing but confrontation.

    They demonstrate none of the fruits of the Spirit that Paul writes about in Galatians 5:22-23.

    They ignore entire commands (like the “holy kiss”) then implement their own which are not found in scripture.

    They also ignore scripture that disqualifies their peculiar beliefs, such as 1st Peter 3:21 (which completely destroys the “water baptism is required for salvation” claim).

    They may have hijacked the “Church of Christ” name, but they are not any congregation that is described anywhere in the New Testament.

    So let us ask again…

    Johnny Robertson, James Oldfield, and their followers: Why are you in a church that’s not in the Bible?

    And if every other “doctrine” is wrong, then why should anyone believe that the “Church of Christ” is right?

  400. To all the above:
    I would suggest to you to SEARCH the WEB for the following:
    The HOLY EUCHRIST
    FATHER JOHN CORAPI
    SISTER FAUSTINA
    SAINT BERNADETTE
    PADRE PIO
    THR MIRACLE OF LANCIANO ITALY
    EWTN (CATHOLIC TV STATION) from ALABAMA

    All the above are worth searching and could possibly require further investigation.

    GOD BLESS

  401. Just 2 more sites for you to search:

    http://www.therealpresence.org
    The Medjugorje web.

    There is only ONE TRUE CHURCH.

    The CATHOLIC CHURCH established by JESUS himself when he said to PETER: “” THOU ART PETER AND UPON THIS ROCK I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH AND THE GATES OF HELL WILL NOT PREVAIL AGAINST IT “”

    Pope Benedect XVI is the successor of PETER and his papacy can be traced back to Peter.

    If you really want to find out more, search the web for the CATHOLIC’S HOLY MASS to understand a little more about the CATHOLIC FAITH and ONLY TRUE CHURCH>

    Bill

  402. Chris said: “If every other “doctrine” is wrong, then how do we know that the “church of Christ” is right”

    Randy said: Perhaps there is a blueprint “somewhere”…

  403. Randy,

    The local “Church of Christ” cult isn’t following the “blueprint” at all.

    Why should anyone believe Robertson, Oldfield etc. when they claim to be building a church, but in reality they are digging a latrine?

  404. Bill:

    I think most of the regular posters would disagree with you, that the Catholic church is the “one true church”. In fact, that is what we are arguing about here with the hyperconservative church of Christ folks – they say that THEIR version of church is the “one true church”. Frankly, we here at ACOC think both views are myopic, misguided, and just flat wrong.

    Are there “true” followers of Christ in the hyperconservative churches of Christ? Certainly. Are there “true” followers of Christ in the Catholic church? Of course. And, as we’ve said here before, there are also “true” followers of Christ in the other various branches of the protestant faith. And in the Orthodox traditions.

    The “true” church of Christ is bigger than a name on a sign

    However, I do ask that you keep in mind that this blog doesn’t exist to debate Catholicism – there are plenty of other blogs and websites that exist out there to do that. So, please keep your discussions on topic. The name of this particular page is “Church of Christ doctrine” – and it relates to the “church of Christ” that comes out of the largely American Restoration movement that occurred in the latter part of the 1800’s.

    Meanwhile, if you would like to post a link to a blog or bulletin board that discusses the Catholic church, feel free to do so. But here, let’s stay on the topic at hand.

    Thanks!
    ACOC

  405. Nathan why don’t you demand that these statements be documented?
    On April 8, 2009 at 8:48 am Truth Said:
    Maybe if Matt shows he and his friends harass elderly women at their homes to the point the elderly women feel they have pull a gun out to get them to leave maybe that will sway Randy his way more.

    You rebuke Randy for “unethical” behavior and yet you say nothing about the statement made about me. The visit to the “elderly ladies” house was fully documented on tape, I was not at her door nor was I bothering her in anyway. We were door knocking the whole county and sooner or later Kellum’s street would be hit.
    why not ask truth to tell what the Kellum group said on air. They planned to get another Rolls Royse. One of their own members told our cameras at the church building that Kellum was excessive. He has two retirements and inheritance and still rides the backs of poor people.
    I try and demonstrate the lust for power and wealth that is clear in “unchecked” systems of religion. You on the other hand let people on here slander me and say all kinds of liable toward me.
    The Kellum group told on air that they had friends not saved and I had better walk softly. Chris says I painted a bomb on the Danville building. How could he possibly prove that? You let it go unchecked Nathan!
    Is that ethics in the presbyterian faith?
    Thank you Randy for calling this site what it is!
    Dear Nathan and Chris just for a history lesson why dont you look up Calvin the tyrant
    “In 1547, a man who left during the sermon and made too much noise about it was imprisoned…”

    I moving on to Randy

    Hope to see you

  406. Good morning to all posters

    I have just had a chance to begin reading HISTORY OF BAPTIST by Robert Torbet (3rd edition)
    on page 175 it documents that in 2 years 1829-1831 no less than “9580” Baptist in just Kentucky, left the Baptist church and became associated with the Lord’s people also known as “Christians” “disciples”
    This is only rivaled by the defection from the Presbyterian church in the same era.
    Davidson in his History of Presbyterian church in Kentucky (1847)pg 215 list that the church of which Alexander Campbell was a member and defender, grew to 150,000 and upwards in 20 years. Davidson further agrees with Torbet and says that “whole churches of both Methodist and Baptist declared that truth was being taught by the “the Reformers” or “restorers” toward NT Christianity. Davidson’s exact words are, ” such was the zeal of the Proclaimers, that they swept like a torrent; whole churches, both of Baptist and Methodist, occasionally declaring for them, and their progress has been onward ever since, swelling in less than twenty years to the number of 150,000 members and upwards.

    I am so happy to finally have copies of both these books so as to have proof that the effort we are in can surely produce great results.

    I am awaiting the mail to receive my very own copy of Daniel Featley’s book written against the churches of Christ in England. This book is over 350 years old and it contains the evidence that Baptist have been guilty of putting “Baptist church” on any group that existed that practiced immersion. It is my understanding that Featley points out that his opponents taught baptism for the remission of sins. That Featley is known by all and is excepted as a scholar will be clearly evident from his part in the “First Oxford Company”, responsible for the later books of the Old Testament in the King James Bible.

    may God help us to have such results in our efforts to evangelize this same area of Virginia

  407. Nathan, I have seen much here that could be called attacks against Johnny which seem to go unchecked.

    Chris using his little Aprils jokes – boy you guys really liked that one, didnt you? You focus on other things…like mispelled words, caps, and other things…while allowing other things go unckecked.

    Ok. Lets talk bible for a while on here. You agree that you are not promoting “anything goes” right?

    That statement invites some discussion. If anything doesnt go in church worship, what does? Can one drop Sunday worship and pick Saturdays, would that be ok?

    There are patterns in scripture and standards that MUST flow from those claiming to be saved. Please not that I am not saying one uphold patterns as some check list to gain favor with God. But, there are patterns clearly in the bible and denying them would be denying God.

    There is patterns for an Elder, right?

    Tell you what, why dont you list the patterns you see in the new testament that MUST flow from the saved. Use scripture, please. Fell free to cut and paste them, that wont bother me at all or you can reword them maing them your own.

  408. oh, I mispelled some words above, shame on me

    …I didnt use any cut and paste…no ALL caps either…give me a cookie for that :)

  409. Chris said: The local “Church of Christ” cult isn’t following the “blueprint” at all.

    Randy said: I take this to mean you are follwing the “blueprint” or know what it is…

    Please provide me with some details from scripture of what the blueprint is…what did the early church ( in the bible ) follow as a blueprint? I know you can answer Jesus. I agree. But did Jesue have any teachings that are part of the blueprint? Seems Paul included some of the blueprint too.

    Please note that I am not making a legalistic case here, but if there are patterns, shouldnt we be following them because we desire to please God?

  410. Chris, or any other brave souls on here. I have a suggestion. Why not we all meet with Johnny in person and talk about these things.

    I am sure Nathan will not wont this, seeing he hasnt even told his real name. Chris may be willing. I would like us to meet without cameras and recording devices and discuss thee matters.

    Anyone else game? How about you Truth? I doubt you will show either. WIL, you seem to have some insight that would be worth your time and ours. Consider meeting with us…Lee, how about you?

    I am asking us all “local viewers” to come from behind this site and meet in person and discuss some of these things. You pick the topic guys and lets see if Johnny will meet us somewhere…maybe over lunch or something when he has time.

    So, who is game??? Any real players here? Or just bench warmers?

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